Latest / Skin Anarchy / Bradley and Jonina Skaggs, co-founders of Skaggs Creative

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Bradley and Jonina Skaggs, co-founders of Skaggs Creative · Skin Anarchy

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is your host, Ekta, and today I have with me the founders of Skaggs Creative.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: It is a beautiful company and so innovative in the way that they do branding.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Bradley and Yonina Skaggs.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the show, guys.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited you're here, and I would love to get started by learning all about how it you know all began.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we're both trained architects and we met in architectural school.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm originally from German uh sorry, from Iceland, but I went to school in Germany.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um and my university had an exchange program with Bradley's university, so I did that.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we met.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Fast forward, we were both working as architects in Europe, and then uh we decided to move back to America, well, to San Francisco, where I did my master's degree, uh fine art, focusing on design and marketing.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh I would say we were lucky enough to be in the situation that we were approached by people, um uh one of them being NASA, actually.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you should take over.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so yeah, Rally, if you could tell us more.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um Yonina was uh doing your MFA, and I was working as an architect, and this is about the time when 3D modeling of buildings was becoming was growing.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I had I had been introduced to this this application, and it was a Hungarian application called ArchiCad, and when I was living in Europe, and it was really ahead of its time because you could draw in 2D and it'd be actually drawing in 3D, and it has amazing capabilities.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, anyhow, fast forward, we're in San Francisco, and they they have an office there, and I get to know the guys and I bring it into the firm we're using.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was approached by a magazine called Architectural Record to take their annual issue about their top six homes, which had always been a sort of virtual experience way back in the day of macro media directory ROMs, and make it a web experience.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I did that, and in the process of that, I met these guys who uh one two of them were scientists, another one was an architect, and we they wrote a grant and we got this grant to do this virtual tour of all 10 NASA facilities.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: It took about a year to do, and then more, two years.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe a year and a half, maybe.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but uh anyhow, it gets all done all this work about security, about how you navigate that you can't really tell where you are in NASA and blah blah blah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a month before it's supposed to launch.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: We send everything off to NASA.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: September 11th happens, and it never sees the light of day.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But but the interesting thing about what this caused was uh it was too much for me to still be an architect and try to do this.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Yonina had finished her MFA by this time and had all kinds of free work, and so she was doing print work in those days, and I was doing digital stuff, and uh that led to a colleague of hers from school getting a job in Microsoft and that becoming a one of our very first clients.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we ended up just you know, kind of working in a little studio apartment, and like we need to get a bigger space, we got an office, and like it kind of just happened.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: We suddenly were a firm, right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: We had a little design agency, yeah.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the and the best part is too, we were just learning as we were going because we didn't plan.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: All this stuff was emerging all the time.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh the plan was always to move back to Europe, and you know, but that never happened because we got too busy in San Francisco, and that led then uh so we opened well officially opened with staff in 1999.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um, and then we got we went to New York to see a friend who was also an architect.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: We stayed in the architectural world for quite some time, and our first just not only NASA and Microsoft, there was a lot of architects and engineers and engineers and contract furniture companies, like Vitran, Miller, you know, all of that stuff because they were really coming to us.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why we didn't even have to go after them is that they knew immediately that we understood the world that they were living in, and especially the contract furniture people.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Bradley had been as an working as an architect for 10 years, so we knew exactly what architects were looking for.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, your work speaks for itself, you know.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's brilliant.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So to make a long story short, we opened an office in New York in 2000.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, after like literally after coming here, and three months later, our friend said, Hey, you know, our office mate moved out.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to come to New York?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we were actually then at that time uh going after vitra, and they really wanted to work with us, and they were like, Not only you not we will not entertain it unless you have an office in New York.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we just said, Okay, we will take that space, yeah, which was like twelve hundred dollars a month back then on Spring Street, by the way.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can only imagine what it is now.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Two weeks later, I I find myself getting on a plane with a suitcase and an iMac, and you know, blue one, I think it was, and uh setting up shop in New York.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so we knew it was great because we the contract furniture stuff was fun and it was cool, and but it led us into hospitality and uh and that got us into food.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we were doing all the national advertising for an organization called Meat and Livestock Australia, so it was all the marketing for Australian lamb and beef in the US.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: How did you guys transition so much?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm really like I'm sitting here thinking, like, it must be so hard from a branding perspective, like you know, working with so many different areas um and so many different industries.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, how does that whole process work for you?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Can you, you know, maybe um Bradley, you can start us off.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm just curious, like the creative process is really what I'm referring to.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've always said, and I think Unina would agree that like architecture is like is like probably the best design background you can you can have, whether or not you're an architect or not, because you you study everything from the urban scale down to the detail of a doorknob.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing close to that is probably industrial design, which maybe you'll be designing a car or maybe aeronautical in a plane, but you know, architecture, you've got this range of of scale, and you're also talking, you're dealing with psychology and sociology and all these other aspects of of what space does and informs to a person, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember remember back like it being difficult to kind of pivot between these because it was sort of a natural flow to us.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was like we to this day, we still look at anything we do, like designing a building in many ways.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with a strong foundation and then a structure, and then you you get into sort of decorating, which is the you know, the color and all that sort of stuff, but yeah, I don't know, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: I totally and and we I think how we also built because we think um with our training, we never think about trends, so we really dive deep into what the client is looking for.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, when meet in Livestock Australia, I did not, I tell you, I had not had meat in 16 years when we landed the egg out, and I made myself um eat lamb, and yeah, you made yourself eat it, yes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to taste it, you know.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to taste it, and of course it wasn't as good as Icelandic lamb, but I was bloated for a week.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, you're yeah, yeah.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you got into character rather.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing is, and like I don't know, it's uh I guess we're just curious enough, both Bradley and I.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when we started to get into beauty, Bradley was suddenly really into fragrances, and then uh suddenly I saw him with like black poly nail polish.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Bradley was also getting into an urban nervous retro move back to the 80s, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I was out with 90 kid, I get it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, but um to answer your question about process, I think it's just Yanino was talking about it a little bit too, but it's it's we've tried to be uh consciously style agnostic and really focus on what the brand is about and bringing out that I hate it when they call it the DNA, but yeah, you know, that sort of essence of what the brand's about and and making out the thing that that is important.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Right, and you know, I have I have so many questions, honestly, Nina and Bradley, because I I don't understand um why we don't focus more on like the branding aspect of all the amazing products we love, right?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because I mean, let's be honest, yes, you know, uh you know, speaking strictly in the beauty space and the skincare space, you know, for the sake of the podcast, I can say that there are so many companies that they sell out based on their branding, you know, based off of things like packaging, based off things of like how they make their consumers feel.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not necessarily coming from the founders, you know, it's coming from from individuals that are, you know, truly professionals and like you said, design, such as yourselves, you know.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I I I wonder about that, you know, in terms of like how does that feel for you when you when you design for a brand and then you just see them like you know do really well, or do you know how does that whole feeling like how is that um overall?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I think there's there's it's the difference between the short game and the long game.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes pretty apparent.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it how can you not just think like you read about the unicorn brands and this overnight success, and it, you know, it happened to dot com, like somebody launches a website, and next thing you know, they're a million-dollar, you know, million millionaire, and blah, blah, blah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think the truth is that all of it re like anything requires time.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the brands that are serious are the ones that invest the time and they realize it's a long-term commitment.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: They take it step by step and they try to avoid trends, and they don't just suddenly try to kiss every millennial's ass.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they look at they they look at the data now because there's so much of it, and they analyze and they reflect and they move forward.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I just hear a lot of brands, like they come in the door all the time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: They've got a maybe a great idea, but they they have no concept of what it takes to do it, and they think it's gonna happen really quickly.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to spend any money on it, and yeah, you know, just look at the skincare industry, it's full of like sort of half-baked brands.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much like everybody's same base formula and adding their own little special sauce to it, and same with air care, same with cosmetics.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Everything it's all like that, but there are a few that we really admire and have really sort of put a stick in the ground, if I would say, and yeah, you know, one of them definitely is Charlotte Tilbury that we worked with when she was just starting out.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I love Charlotte, I love Charlotte.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really 35 people whom we were working with her.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, they were all cramped in a small little room, and um, but she just stuck with her guts, you know.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Was she opinionated?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course, but she had a vision, she had a vision, and she was not doing any trendy stuff, it was all her and her vision, yeah, and also her knowledge, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: She she'd been a makeup artist forever, and she and she's you know, I have a question.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: I have a question though, Yonina, for you as a woman, because I know that you know the cosmetic industry and the beauty industry is very much geared towards selling products to women, obviously, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like when it comes to trends, I love the point that you brought up.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, in terms of you guys don't really like following trends.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I I, you know, I would like to challenge that by saying that I think you know, individuals like you are the ones that create the trends, because when you really create something unique, um, it becomes a trend.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you follow what I'm saying.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, um, I have a question for for you specifically, because as a woman, like, you know, where do you see this industry going?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because right now, I'm not gonna lie, every time I look at a new brand, it's like, for example, you mentioned Charlotte, a lot of brands are copying her like packaging or like you know, the feel of it, and it's just like redundancy over and over again.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you think?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, where do you think we're headed in terms of like the beauty industry and and targeting women and you know what I mean?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like female consumers.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think where we're headed, honestly, is uh more gender neutral.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's definitely gonna happen, whether it's nail polish, color cosmetic, or even um concealers, whatever it is.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the the thing is, me personally, I don't use half of the stuff because it's all I feel.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, except for Charlotte, you just have to try it on, and you know right away that this is a good formulation or not.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: You just know it.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will say though, to Morphe's um, you know, uh benefit or whatever, their formulation is not bad, but it's all you know, I would say it's it's I mean it is what it is for 30 bucks, you get a 30 palette um, you know, color, what do you call it?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like the eye palette things, yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you but for that price, they're doing a really good job.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say though the best quality I still know of is probably Charlotte Tilbury.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, her lipstick aren't just insane.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I will because she formulates most of it in Italy, actually, all of it.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and um and her skincare in Switzerland and skincare in Switzerland, but I I don't think uh personally, I think she should just stay out of skincare and focus on uh what she does best.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean concealers, yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of um skincare, I would say the best skincare that I would recommend is just read the labels.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: If the ingredients are more than 10, don't use it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, we have worked with a skincare brand that has only seven ingredients.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, which one is that?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh BioEffect.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're all recent and uh amazing.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: They are absolutely amazing.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Even the dermatologists that we work with, they recommend that product, but it's it's hard to understand, I think, for the consumer what it does because they're not very good about communicating that, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: We tried to help them, but then they didn't listen to us.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of sad.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, how does that how do you handle that though, Yanina?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: How do you handle like when you like when you know, you know, this is what it's gonna take to take this brand to the next level?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you guys like deal with that if a brand's just not willing to listen?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Do you just say, okay, screw it, or like you still try?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: We did try, but then at the end, you always try.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: We always try.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: But here's what I want to say where the industry is going, definitely cleaner products, less ingredients, less packaging, packaging for sure.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing a lot of uh repackaging for brands that you know they everybody is trying to get into the sustainability um cycle, um, which means not recycling.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Recycling should just not exist.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think, but here's the thing I think that's also getting redundant, if I'm honest with you guys.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I think you know, the more and more I see skincare in the space, like I am starting to feel like it's becoming this formula of like check this box and check this box, and you know, are you sustainable?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Are you clean?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Are you dermatologist tested?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: And here's my biggest question, especially you know, from your perspectives, is if I, for example, if I came out with a skincare line today, my skincare line would not focus on sustainability.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: I can honestly tell you, it would not focus on all this other hype and all these things that everyone's focusing on.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: I would on only focus on data.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where my question is, is because everyone talks about how these companies have so much data and you know they've done the consumer testing, and you know, 99% of people who use the serum said they loved it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, where's the actual like how do those numbers play into branding?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you how do you combine actual scientific data and then create that as the like the story of a brand?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like that's what I'm really curious about.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's I think you gotta look at the well, how to say it define the data because there is there's there's the research data which you know you can it is what it is, I suppose you can kind of trust it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the real data is about efficacy and uh the technology and what it really does.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, those are the brands that are the for me personally, and I think you Nina too are the fun ones to work on because it's about the science.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and that's where you get real.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, there's there's you know, I somebody came in the office today with these fragrances, and they're doing they were they're doing great business.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: They have a great, great business, but they were awful, they were just terrible.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah, and it's just because you know, there's a there's a section of people out there who like this, and there's nothing wrong with that if that's what you like, but it's not prestige fragrance.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And right, right.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think skincare and everything else is the same thing.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can buy some really good drugstore brands that are maybe good at one particular thing, but I don't think that you can build a whole regimen out of that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, you've got some brands that are like so science focused that nobody can understand what they're talking about.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then you go the other way, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: It gets scary because like you're using stem cells in there.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not stem cells, right?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, so to answer your question, it's about filtering all of that and conveying the story about what the brand is, what they stand for, and what these ingredients do, and why and how, and just and then obviously showing the proof of it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, the building the understanding.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I imagine that also goes into branding, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like the because yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's very interesting.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think you could build a skincare line based on the data.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people want certain things, great, you could do that product.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're also seeing a bit of a trend now of brands that want to do multiple products but across categories.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in other words, trying not to just dominate one category.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: They want to do, you know, the best uh maybe hair oil, and then they want to do the best uh serum or serum, and they want to do, you know, they want to do some kind of nail product because it's and then what they're all coming from is a need that they've that they have, and those are always the best products, right?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I mean I think you're I I think you're really hitting a good point, is that this, you know, a lot of companies are they they spread their, you know, they spread their sites, you know, very far.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I I understand like from a business perspective how that's important, but you know, kind of going back to Yonina's uh, you know, point about Morphe, for example, you know, there's a lot of brands now.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like I can tell you, like, for example, I have a friend, she owns a very small business, Billy Beauty, and her eyeshadows, I kid you not, Yonina, they're so fantastic.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like the formula, yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm gonna have to like get you some because I like it's what you said about Charlotte, how it's like things just when it's good, it's good, right?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that's like when I first tried uh her brand, Billy Beauty, I was like blown away.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember messaging her.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Being like, do you realize like how great your formula is?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: And do you realize how good your product is?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, Oh, thank you so much.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like, you know, also going back to like, you know, just the idea of this branding and the trend setting thing, is like, I wish those brands would come up.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I wish larger companies would stop spreading their, you know what I mean?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like their winks so far that you're creating a monopoly over and over again, you know.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the and the problem is now is that these big brands now want to be part of.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a little bit of an issue that I want to just mention is that everybody is running now towards the sustainability, you know, thing, and everybody's trying to do their best.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that the supplier has not caught up to it yet.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, meaning if if you want to um order not recycle, I hate the word recycle, but sustainable packaging, you have to order at least 10,000 of them, if not even more.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So a small indie brand cannot afford that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: They usually like to do 5,000 or less, 2500, but that's not available to them.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, of course, the Astilauders and the L'Oreals are gonna come out with probably the first mega sustainable packaging that is biodegradable, blah, blah, blah, because they can afford the 100,000 minimum orders, 10,000, whatever it is.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they can also afford the RD to do it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And until they do it, it's not gonna happen necessarily.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great point, Bradley.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have they have to see out there, they're doing a lot of a lot of work in terms of new new materials that are biodegradable or or uh compostable or stuff like this.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: But like Unina's saying, the moqs are five, ten thousand and yeah, small.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can't can't afford it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So but you know, at least it's go in the right direction.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I also have a question um for you, Bradley, because I, you know, I know that like there was this trend or like well, a thing back, you know, like a few years ago or even a year ago, where a lot of smaller brands, like indie brands, were really promoting the idea of reusable, you know, containers or like, you know, just like the things they could do on their budget.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like if a brand is so small and all they can afford is saying, hey guys, like, you know, we won't send you the whole compact, we'll send you the refill.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: If that's all they can do and that's their contribution to sustainability, like I just wonder, like, you know, from a branding perspective, like how to make that so that it looks just as, you know, shiny and amazing to like a consumer as something like, for example, the you know, like Revlon comes out with like a giant campaign about, you know, sustainability.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do you have any advice for those small brands?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's really what I want to ask you is like, how do they maximize their like you know, the impact from the branding perspective?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, don't be afraid of it.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it is happening.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we had a conversation just the other day with a New Zealand brand.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's developed this line of cosmetics, and everything are these real refillable pods, and it's biodegradable, and it it's it's it was like amazing.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we're also working another brand in Australia, and she's very much in this whole and her packaging too, her whole all her ingredients, everything.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's like this movement from down under that's that's pretty cool.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like I hadn't I didn't realize it, but they're very, very conscious of it down there.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and but I think um the pod thing and the refillable idea is here to stay.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's only going to catch on more and more.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think the consumer is conscious about the amount of waste it is to buy a whole nother bottle with a pump and everything else.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: You see it in cleaning products already.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you see it in a lot of different categories besides beauty.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't have to the pack the the refillable don't have to look awful, you know.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: They can be looking sexy, and yeah, you know, that that's the thing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't know why a lot of people associate refillables with like, you know, like ugly packaging, yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we work with a we work with a fragrance brand.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a$350 fragrance, but they do refillables.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this beautiful glass vial.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: It comes with a small little copper funnel that you can poured in the thing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but it's yeah, it's it's very, very well done.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: See, I'm all about it.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm all about the refillables because I'm one of those people that gets attached to things.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, you know, I was the kid that had her Honda cord for like, you know, into college.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like I get attached.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's I get it.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm on board, and I think it's uh it's a great, you know, I think that in terms of sustainability is probably one of the better ideas that I've seen actually play out, you know.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I one more for you.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um last week or a couple weeks ago, whatever we were we were looking at things, and this there's sort of this emerging trend now of when you buy products from different brands that you can get the normal packaging or the no-frills packaging.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: You take the no-frill option, you save five bucks, and they're just gonna ship you the product, probably without a secondary carton.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, if it's if you're just buying a refill or buying another one to some brand you love, do you really need all that stuff?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's gonna catch on too.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're gonna find more brands doing that because and and actually I think COVID had a lot to do with this too.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, you need to mention how much uh rebranding repackaging we're doing because I think brands finally realized that they're shipping a lot of extra weight around, the cost of materials is high, the waste is high.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's time to pivot and just streamline and minimize so that everybody saves money and time.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: I would actually, I would love broadly for you guys could like expand more on the COVID thing because I know like you know, there's a lot that's changed.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm I'm guessing from the branding side, a lot, you know, a lot of different aspects have really evolved and and changed.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, um, you know, what are some of the challenges that you guys have seen um with you know the pandemic and the way that people are buying things?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the thing is well, number one is that um I would say uh the absolute number one is that the pandemic taught everybody, like especially in the beauty industry, that they really need to be more frugal and rethink their packaging and like less waste.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is the challenge now with sampling.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as you know, how the sampling vials are just small and they create a lot of waste.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like what and what how do how are we gonna sample in stores now?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's still the biggest question.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, and sampling has always been a very expensive proposition for any brand.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because to run the little packets and things like that, it's the you know, the minimal quantities are super high.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, and a lot of trash.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's more and more.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a brand we work with called Queen of Cups.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: They do this great lipstick wipe.
• 29:46
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Their packaging is fully biodegradable, including the wipe.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's no plastic in it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Super, super cool.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact you can do that, you could take that same material and do little packets that are biodegradable.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're gone to something.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm hoping that some manufacturers are going to realize that this is something important that people do need samples and could start running lines, you know, kind of like when you go back to the beginning of like moo.com and people like this, you could run 50 business cards, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: For nothing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can start, you could send them a couple calendars of product and they could just run a line of samples for you.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, you can sample.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, but that's what I was telling you earlier is that the manufacturers haven't caught on.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I I'm just really surprised that they haven't well, they might be trying to protect what they already have, yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that's yeah, that's a good point.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely simple, but you know how it works.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like how in the beginning of uh quick story, our first business cards in 1999 were printed on bamboo paper.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: They were bought by a big color colla clamorate here in the US.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's a paper, yeah, paper company.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to mention who bought who, but yeah, they shelved it, they basically killed them.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: But bamboo, you don't have to, it's a wheat, it's a wheat, and it's it grows so fast and it's so strong, and you don't have to chlorine the shit out of it to get it right, bleach it, or bleach it, and um so yeah, so they shelved it, and not until I would say three years ago they brought it back.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's starting to come back, it's starting to come back, but hey, listen, this is like it took them about 20 years almost to figure out that maybe bamboo paper is not so bad.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they finally caught up to coming things.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, you know, I feel like that's a that's a really like a very big problem in so many industries.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, Bradley, I think I agree with you in the sense that I think they try to protect what they know is already working.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: But it's almost you know, but that's see, that's the thing.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's where I don't get it, because it's like if you do it the right way and if you put the knowledge out there in the correct way, and I guess we could say that's kind of part of branding, you know.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see why you could your consumers wouldn't find it easier to shift, you know what I mean?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like just say, like you know, if you just give me the information as a consumer, I'm gonna go along with it.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: If I especially if I love the company, you know, so yeah, but it just all gets political, you know, and yeah, yeah, and we don't want to go there now.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it I just feel like it's it's like everything else, big oil, whatever.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But so I think the companies and the brands that are the smart ones is real is when they realize they can actually do both and they can make a transition to something else and still win.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if they do it first, then they're ahead.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's it's frustrating uh from our end doing what we do that you that you can't like.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have the right resources, really.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I wanna, you know, I I just want to thank you guys.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: I could honestly talk to you for like I think years about this stuff.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't understand branding, and I just think you're both so brilliant.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I I thank you so much, first of all, for even making the time.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: And also I want to finish the episode by asking for some advice from you both, uh, you know, about anything branding related, anything related to like, you know, um that small brands can benefit from, you know, things that little tips if you have any, you know, or career advice.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to go first?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, you go first.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, you you go first.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Ladies first.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I got a little bit emotional about this stuff.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say the one tip is you know it's a commitment and you gotta be serious about it.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's scary, but it's also extremely rewarding.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, I think you just gotta follow your heart and just do what you believe is right.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there are people out there who will respond to that and who will follow.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you you've gotta you gotta dedicate yourself to it, you gotta put the time into it.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not a hobby.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a relationship, you know.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to invest the time to make something come of it.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'd say.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and my my advice is um, and this might sound a little bit harsh, but don't ask your family about what you're doing because they will only tell you what the positives you really need to look at what your true audience is and start to ask them.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, your cousins and brothers and sisters are, yeah, that's great, just you know, keep on going.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: They are afraid to probably give the true feedback, but what a startup brand really needs to do is really finding a their white spot and really honestly, just why are you doing this?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have started other companies as well, and you know, and the the reason you really have to figure or really be true to yourself to and ask yourself, why am I doing this?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is this worth my time?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is, keep on going, but then take the family and front equation out of it, yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Unless your family's like mine, where my mother criticizes that sort of thing.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but no, that's it.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe one last one last bit of that is like, don't ever let good become the enemy of perfect.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of brands they spend a tremendous amount of time trying to get everything exactly right, and that's not the competition is flying past them.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean you cut the corners and you go cheap and anything else, it just means move and get it out there, get the real feedback the union is talking about, and then you can adjust and it iterate and move to the next one.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and I think it is too these days.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, 20 years ago, it was not so easy to adjust because it was mostly print with web and social media.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can know instantly, you can do it instantly, like on you know, you don't have to wait like six, eight, ten weeks or more.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Everything's at our fingertips now, you know.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: So well, that was you know, thank you guys so much and everyone listening.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm gonna definitely link um everything about Skabs uh Creative, but it go to scagscreative.com, S-K-A-G-G-S-Creative.com and check out the site and learn more about Yonina and Bradley and the whole team.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: I this has been such a pleasure chatting with both of you.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having us.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having us.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be back next time.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 37:05
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