Latest / The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business / Bundles & Packages - Aaron Smith from Cubicasa

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Bundles & Packages - Aaron Smith from Cubicasa · The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business

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Coming up on this episode of The Spiro podcast.
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you're actually helping an agent.
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And I think when you can get that
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in your head, you're serving them and not selling to them.
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Like if they get more listings by you bundling together services,
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you are helping them.
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Hello and welcome to the Spiro Podcast.
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Spiro is a real estate media platform designed to run
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your media business and help you scale.
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It's a platform that we built for our media business Wow video tours,
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way back almost 23 years ago
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and, are still using it today and, enjoying it with all of you.
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So on this podcast, we talk about the business of real estate
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photography, and you all are like, why does this sound differently?
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I'm not used to hearing Todd right now, and unfortunately,
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my partner in crime and better
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host of the podcast, Craig is sick today,
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so Craig is getting some, sleep today.
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And so you have myself and we have a guest though,
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so there is hope for this podcast because we do have a guest today,
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so you don't have to hear me mumble for 45 minutes.
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But we'll introduce him in a second.
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But I wanted to take a moment just to give you a quick Spiro update.
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So we are planned for a March 3rd launch.
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So we actually gave you we had one big goodie in there
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and it was so good that I asked the engineering team to push it quickly.
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That was the ability to quickly download video on iOS devices.
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So iPads and iPhones at a one click don't have to the old
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like enable allow pop ups.
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Go to the files and send it to your photos.
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You don't have to do that anymore. You literally click download.
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You click save video. It goes right to your camera.
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So you already have that.
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It's like an early Christmas present for you all.
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There's some other goodies in the March release.
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We are unifying the mobile pages for property websites,
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and then I'll do a full release that you all will get.
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So keep an eye out for that early March and,
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and then in the next cycle, just so you all know, we're going
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to give you some really great updates for your ordering pages,
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different ways to sell.
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To sell better.
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We're actually going to talk about bundling and selling today.
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So just wanted to mention that if you'd like more information
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or if you want to contact us, you can reach us.
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Hello@Spiro.media or on our website Spiro.media.
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The platform is free to sign up for, so sign up for it,
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give it a try and if you need help signing up,
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we have a great onboarding team concierge team that can help you.
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All right, without further ado, I want to jump in here.
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Our guest is, a good becoming and has become a good friend of mine.
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As we see each other at conferences and get to talk and talk about life.
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We just have a lot, a lot in common and a lot of connections
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and a lot of the same things we do, which is always kind of cool.
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And, he came out and they supported our Spiro sync,
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which was this last January in Ohio.
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So super appreciative of that.
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Many of you know him and love him,
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but if you don't know him, we'll give you an introduction.
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He is the sales director of Cubicasa.
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Aaron Smith.
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Aaron, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you. Todd.
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I think the first thing is, you know,
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that event, you know, going into a first year event is always interesting.
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You never really know what it's going to be like.
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And and what's the attendance going to be like?
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What's the space going to be like?
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What's the food going to be like.
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But honestly, you and the team just crushed it.
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We had incredible conversations, great evening events.
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Just great content all around.
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And just like a really high level, of involvement from the attendees
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to us other sponsors, that space, I'm going to butcher the name.
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But the Aileron
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Yes. Aileron campus was incredible.
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I hit away for a couple of hours each afternoon by a fireplace to
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get some work done, and I was just like, I could live in this space.
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So you were the team and Shannon, everybody just crushed it.
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And so, yeah, excited to to to run it back again next year.
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And then also, you know, continue on with the partnership that we have and
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and things like that.
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So thanks for having me.
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And I'm excited to kind of have a good conversation.
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Yeah for sure. Thank you for that.
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It was a great time.
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We are getting ready or getting close to announce
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dates and location of the next Spiro Sync.
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So keep an eye out for that.
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Also, if you weren't able to attend, the video recordings are almost complete,
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so keep an eye out or email us at hello@spiro.media
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Let us know that you would like to,
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get Ahold of those and we can let you know how to do that.
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And then if you did attend the conference, you'll automatically get an email
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with those recordings and also some photos that you can download of the event.
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So thank you for your support, Aaron.
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And Cubicasa on that. We couldn't have done it without you.
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So Cubicasa is an industry standard.
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We use it at Wow for all of our floor plans.
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I know many and all of you do as well.
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And, we're going to get to
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some a great topic of bundling and packaging, but I,
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I think it's super important.
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And I felt this even more in the room at sink and especially out at dinner
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the nights that we did and in the in betweens that
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understanding and getting to know humans
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on a human to human level is just so important.
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And as we can connect with people, we can align with their we can relate
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to them, and then we can understand them and we can learn from them.
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So I'd like to start off, Aaron, if you will, maybe
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just give us a introduction as to how you came in the industry
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a little about you so that our, our listeners
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who don't already know you have an idea of, your path into the industry.
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Yeah. For sure.
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Well, I'm a long time
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resident of Michigan, the the great state just north of the other state.
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Ohio. Yes.
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But I, you know, first and foremost, I'm a husband.
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I have a father.
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I've got two young kids, seven and ten.
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And, you know, we we live out in the middle of nowhere,
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kind of like Todd Todd's, video commercial of him in the cornfields.
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Feels very, very familiar to me in my life.
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But then around the real estate industry for the last,
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you know, ten plus years, I, I have kind of a weird background.
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I started out, after Bible college and sales and got a job at a church
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and then ended up back in the sales world and met two founders
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of a real estate photography company called Next Door Photos.
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Right around 2015 or so.
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And so at that point, they were kind of starting
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to think about how to scale the business and start up new locations and kind of,
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joint venture and franchise model.
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And I raised my hand to, you know, I was trying to sell them life insurance,
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but and I ended up with a real estate photography business, so,
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I met my match in the sales format there and then somehow ended up
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in this business.
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I had never touched a professional camera in my life.
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I'm not particularly creative in that sense.
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And I only knew real estate from the sense that I owned a home.
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And that was, as far as I knew.
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But the the mission and
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and the purpose of what they were doing, and they're very mission driven company.
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They've got a lot of, you know, community aspects that they like to the point
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in local business and, and things like that really drew me to them.
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And so in 2016, I launched
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my first real estate photography business in the southeast side of Michigan.
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So over the next couple of years,
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I learned a lot about, you know, putting toilet seats down,
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in photos, not using a unsteady tripod when you're using
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multiple exposures because editors don't like exposures that move that.
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Who knew?
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I didn't know that.
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And so we scaled that location and ended up becoming three locations.
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You know, a couple of years later, I joined,
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the kind of corporate entity as their director of sales,
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and we just continued to grow the business from there.
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I, I left and came back to them, and then I found myself
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at Cubicasa about three and some change years ago.
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And so, you know what really drew me to Cubicasa was
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you know, the big mission of getting a floor plan on every listing.
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It's it's kind of it's really nice to have an anchored thing that every day
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when you check your calendar, your to do list, like what is the
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what is the one thing and the multiple things that you're going
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to do to continue to drive that, you know, outcome.
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We believe that consumers like for plants.
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They want to see them more often.
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And so we work to create programs, products, services to help enhance that.
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And so that's where we are today.
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Outside of
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work, I, you know, or active in our church community,
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we, like to go skiing, which we're hoping to do this weekend.
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I think it's going to be 55 years in Michigan, so we'll see if that works.
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But, you know, I am a I am addicted to golf,
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but do my skills and scores do not reflect that addiction?
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So it's a bit of a weird, weird deal there.
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But other than that, yeah.
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Happy to be again.
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Happy to be on here, chat about kind of what we've got going on, how we see,
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you know, the market and how to sell services across bundles and packages
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and just have a great conversation with my newer friend, Todd
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Yeah. Love that.
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So one thing that you mentioned, I learned a new word, sync.
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Aaron
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f pole.
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Right. Is that, Yeah.
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That's how you for, right? What is that?
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What is a F Pole
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Floor plan on every listing
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So we are addicted to acronyms here.
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We have had more acronyms internally that we can tell.
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And I present to our leadership,
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often about where we're at.
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And I have to have a page on our slide
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deck that says current acronyms that I update every time we add a new one.
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So I think we've got 6 or 7 internally.
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We tried to make one for building it while flying the plane,
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but if you try to make that one work, that doesn't sound good.
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So that's one of the failed ones we've had.
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It's like books, football.
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And so,
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you know, but I think that's, that is, you know, we say it all all the time.
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It's kind of funny.
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You know, lots of people know we have a our, our company was started in Finland.
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And so we have this hodgepodge of culture of us
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and Nordic and Finnish culture and things like that. But
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f pole is the stand alone mission that we work towards every day.
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And we've all agreed once it happens, we're all going to get tattoos.
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So we're going to be either, so it's either going to be f full tattoo
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or a floor plan you choose.
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I'm probably going to go with floor plan because I don't want a lot of questions.
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Yeah.
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It's like, you know, what is that fall wherever it is going to be on my office.
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But yeah, that's, that's what that stands for.
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I love that I, I, you know,
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the thing I've learned over the years and screwing enough things up in business
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is the more that you can not take yourself
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so seriously, the better it is.
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I, I worked a lot of years
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inside of a building and with people that I was serious all the time,
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and it just it's not a great way
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to go about leading a company and just something as simple
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as laughing at the word f pole is like, it's a funny word.
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It actually means something, though, so it aligns your team,
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and I think it has just great value in that.
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And and do you notice that like it does it unified communication.
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What does that do just like internally for you guys here.
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Yeah.
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Good question.
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Each we do what we call focus periods.
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And we have three focus periods a year.
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And we we use the OKR structure and everything
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that's kind of made famous in Silicon Valley by Google.
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But like everything anchors back to that.
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One overarching goal is how do we get a floor plan on every listing?
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So what products are we going to bring to market?
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What sales strategies are we going to do?
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What tech enhancements are we going to do.
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How does it feedback to that.
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And so you know that that's the greatest alignment piece
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that we can have is nobody has a question about where we're headed.
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And so at the end of the day, if you're a salesperson or service rep,
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an engineer,
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whatever it is, if what you're doing today doesn't
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reflect back to that one goal, then we probably shouldn't be working on it.
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And it goes down to things, as your company knows, like continuous
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improvement, right?
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It's not the coolest thing in the world to like be like, oh, I just maintain this
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and make sure it's okay.
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But if it goes down, that's the least cool thing.
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So we need that to to maintain the same pace
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and excitement towards, you know, f pole
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as any other role, whether it's sales or something more forward facing.
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Yeah.
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I the thing that I learned the hard way and in a few times
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was that as the company grew, you would bring in people.
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And those people weren't close enough to me
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that enough of the information in my head spread to them.
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You know, we all I think of the first office, it was basically one room.
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It was a very small space.
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There was a lot of communication.
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You could overhear phone calls.
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So everybody began to absorb the same information.
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So there was this,
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not applied or not,
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intentional communication that actually happened.
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And then the company grew.
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And many of you are experiencing this as you bring on photographers
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and admins, your company will grow.
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And then you've created this habit or this,
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yeah, I guess this habit or this idea of like, hey, I'm going to do
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the scary thing of hiring someone else, and it helps my company grow.
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The thing
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where I got caught up is I did that and I did it again and again and again.
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I was like, let's just hire more people.
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And that's going to mean a lot more growth for me.
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I found that I got this plateau and almost like a dip back down
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where like there was this cultural clash because I didn't protect it.
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You know, we had our core values that we kind of talked
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about and tried to align to, but didn't do a great job communicating it.
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And we got a much bigger office where everybody had offices,
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and we worked a lot behind closed doors, and there wasn't this communication.
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So something as simple as your mission, your
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your core values f pole and make it fun.
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I think that all lines back,
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just like Aaron mentioned, like an engineers working on something,
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and that is going to align back to getting a floor plan on every listing.
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Leadership's going to look at it, say, okay, well,
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you were aligned with what we want to do.
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Is that kind of the thinking there, Aaron?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think I've been a part of companies that have done, you know, long manifestos
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or vision docs and all of those things are very helpful to anchor to.
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But being very laser focused on one simple thing that obviously
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has a cascading effect of many, many things and not so simple
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concepts and strategies and product development, all that kind of stuff.
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But the one thing just gives the day you start here,
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or even the second you interview with us, that's the
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some of the first things about who we are, that come out of our mouths.
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And you could ask anybody who's been here for a day or seven years,
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that's that's the mission.
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And I think, again, fun, simple and clear.
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You know, I think they say clarity is kindness,
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you know, and I think that's what it was really helped us.
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You know, much credit to our president, Jeff, for keeping us aligned to that
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because as you know, in this business, you can get distracted by a million
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different things.
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You could you could become something else or want to have an expanded reach
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or do something that doesn't align to your core offering.
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Maybe that's the right idea, but then does it point to the other things
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that you're focusing on?
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Yeah, yeah. Such good advice there.
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I think something for us all to think about, especially
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as we get into busy season here for, you know, this half of the world.
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So a little bit of a tangent there.
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But I think it's so important because sometimes we get so busy
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working in and not on the business,
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that when by the time we come up for air, I don't want you all to have a,
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you know, this
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huge, massive problem that you're like, hey, I've just been in my own room
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for two years now, and the company grew, but it's it's a bomb.
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So a little bit off tangent there, but let's get back.
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So a question about your so you had this about
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three and a half years ago, you said you joined Cubicasa out
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and then you had three locations in the business.
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Were you using Cubicasa at the time
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that was that your connection to it or was Cubicasa is still.
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Yeah.
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So we were we were looking at it.
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It was still early days. Right. You know, the app.
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And they were right in the process of moving from their pay per use
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to kind of offering the standard that we have now,
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which is the light plus and then the plus 3D.
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So there was no free product, you know, things like that.
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We were still measuring hand, you know, and measuring in field with lasers
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and, and I and I tell this story to agents often and photographers laugh.
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Agents don't.
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But there are so many bay windows or curved walls and I just made it up.
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I was like, I don't have the expertise to measure this and understand
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what the circumference of this half wall is.
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So, you know, when I got into my hands for the first time,
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I just thought it was incredible.
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And then again, back to the simplicity of mission.
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I met Jeff at a conference.
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We were just chatting, and I really just thought it was interesting that
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such a simple product, like a floor plan, could have such a outsized impact.
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The, the real estate industry of, like, what consumers want.
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And I was like, okay, if we can do it or they at that time,
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then that fundamentally changes how listings are viewed.
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And that's really cool.
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That hits people, every phase of life they, when they're searching for homes
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and when I'm out and about, and if I see people on Zillow
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or if they're seeing click on, on a floor plan, I get I just get all excited.
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And so, you know, meeting Jeff.
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And then I met a couple of people from the team,
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and it was just a natural timing and set and so I made the move over from there.
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And, you know, I always kind of say this to like about next to photos.
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They were an incredible company.
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I'm very good friends with most of the folks still there.
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And, you know, nothing but, you know, great times there.
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But yeah, when I left, they were at like 49 to 50 locations,
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maybe a little bit more.
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I was their VP of sales, and,
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yeah, it was just just the way timing works is when it happens.
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Yeah. No, that's that's great.
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So looking at the idea of a floor plan on every listing, let's get into this idea
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and something that you and I both love is this idea of bundling services.
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In fact, in Spiro, when you build an order page, you build a bundle.
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And if you have one or many items in there, like I love the idea of bundle.
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So it's a word that's near and dear to me.
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And we've seen the impact on at our real estate media company
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of bundling items together. So,
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if someone is,
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you know, selling
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a lot of photos only right now, and, you know, we understand that, you know,
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that's a Lower AOV or average order value, what do you suggest?
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What should that individual begin thinking about working on?
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And how does floor plans build into that?
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Yeah, I think the best thing someone can do
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is start at market research, understand who's around them, what they're doing.
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You know, in this business, you get a feeling of who's being,
19:25
you know, picked up faster, who in the office is winning more business.
19:29
Maybe that's you and you want to maintain that.
19:31
Maybe that's, not you and you want to become that.
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But I think that's my best thing is fire up the old Google.
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You can use Gemini or Chat now.
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It's it's just as easy.
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And do a little bit of a competitive analysis and what they're offering.
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More likely than not, you're going to find that companies
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who are growing the fastest have 2 to 4 key offerings, right.
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They've got a basic medium and top.
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And we know from, you know, customer research that typically
20:02
people will pick the middle thing.
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And so how do you design your packages and bundles from that research knowing
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that you know, your most ordered bundle is going to likely be that middle to be,
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you know, good enough meaning number of photos, other add on services price.
20:18
Right.
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But also leave you room to push people to the higher tier
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where you have more margin, higher order value obviously.
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And then keep a smaller bundle available for, you know,
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there's just houses out there that they don't need a bunch of stuff.
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You know, it's a you know, it's $150,000 potential tear down or Reno.
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And you know, you don't need to run a high end video into there just a lifestyle.
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But yeah.
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So I mean, you could be pretty fun.
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But I think that's that's kind of the first step that I would look at it.
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I think it also like today,
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what your average order value is, is a good piece of data.
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And I know you can look at all this stuff in the back end to Spiro.
20:56
And if you can do some research of being like, okay, what's my number one add on?
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Let's say it is floor plans because, you know, it's
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a simple lower cost option compared to other things.
21:08
If you're getting that 35%. Okay.
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And what are you what are you selling it for?
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You get your total revenue from that.
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You kind of figure out your profit,
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and then you figure out, how do I add this into a bundle?
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So one, I don't nuke a profit center. Nope.
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We don't ever want customers to do that from our perspective.
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But how do you you know, adjust pricing, figure out photographer pay
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and then build the bundle around
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maybe 2 or 3 things and start there for the base level.
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And I think that's, that's kind of the first couple steps that I would do.
21:39
Yeah.
21:40
Great advice.
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So see what the market's doing then understand what your clients are ordering.
21:47
I agree 100%.
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We have a big a medium and a small.
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Those are the top at the top of our order page.
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And we find that a lot of times agents come in, they get a listing
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like I'll order them the middle.
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And then they order either side.
22:00
If it's that tear down, you know, or it's like, hey, this is a luxury listing.
22:05
And, you know, luxury listing to them is more than their average list price.
22:09
And they click that button.
22:12
So one thing that I'd like to dive into a little bit
22:15
is this idea of bundling multiple services together.
22:19
And I think there's there's value on so many sides there because one,
22:25
at the end of the day
22:27
when agents order more from you,
22:31
they have better marketing
22:34
to not only sell the house.
22:36
So sell the house less days on market higher, you know,
22:40
list to, sell price ratio.
22:43
But again, the thing about the head of a real
22:46
the brain of a realtor is
22:47
they're always trying to get more listings from one listing.
22:49
They have this term, they call it having listing babies.
22:52
I think it's another term that's funny. Just makes me smile.
22:55
And and when you're a listing agent,
22:58
you leverage your listing sign in the yard,
23:02
MLS, all the other websites out there with your face on it
23:07
so that people look and say, hey, I would like to buy this house.
23:12
What is my house worth?
23:14
And I have a house to sell.
23:15
And then they just run this over and over again.
23:17
So the idea of giving your agents more is better for them.
23:21
And I just wanted to say that because I think at some point,
23:24
some of us out there might feel bad trying to sell more.
23:28
You might feel guilty.
23:29
I think it's someone, an owner, just an owners feeling like me.
23:33
Like I'd give everything away for free if I could.
23:35
I won't charge anybody anything because it's like I want everybody to be happy.
23:39
Many of you are,
23:40
you know, high S personalities out there where you want everybody to be okay.
23:44
But it's not about you're actually helping an agent.
23:47
And I think when you can get that
23:48
in your head, you're serving them and not selling to them.
23:51
Like if they get more listings by you bundling together services,
23:55
you are helping them.
23:57
So with bundling, I know there's many things.
23:59
As you bundle things together,
24:01
you know, your add ons typically have a higher margin, which means that
24:04
maybe you can make it more attractive from a pricing perspective.
24:09
But what what are some techniques
24:10
and some things to look at when we're building these bundles?
24:12
Aaron.
24:13
Yeah, you I don't know, I think you said high s,
24:16
which I'm assuming you're referencing the disc profile. Yes.
24:20
Yeah. See, I'm the opposite.
24:21
I'm a high di, so.
24:23
Okay, I it's the one who pushes because they like to.
24:27
So I, you know, I need a little more s in my life I think.
24:30
But I think, you know it is a good point.
24:33
Like switching your perspective from just being like, oh, I'm just a sales person.
24:37
Like one that's like my life's work.
24:40
So I don't take offense to it.
24:42
But like, you are serving a client
24:44
and if you truly believe that your products can help them,
24:47
then that belief will carry over to their ability to use it.
24:50
And I think that's a really important thing.
24:53
As far as
24:54
kind of techniques, I think every business owner
24:57
needs to find a way to fall in love with their
25:02
Because if they don't take some time once a month, once a week,
25:06
whatever it is for the scale of your business to look at your costs,
25:09
your margins, you know, the ability to look at where most likely people's
25:15
highest cost today is going to either be their editing or their people cost.
25:20
And so, okay, how does that affect bundling?
25:23
Well, you've got other costs, you've got Spiro, you've got cubicasa,
25:27
you've got, you know, other, you know,
25:29
things that you're paying for every day, every week and things like that.
25:33
And if you look at each package,
25:34
what is the cost of goods sold for every product you do?
25:39
Like Todd said, find that margin.
25:42
Find where you can compress on the low end.
25:45
So you can take a lower end product,
25:46
maybe make a little bit less money on the low end,
25:48
but it's a feeder for your medium package with the higher end.
25:51
And then you have your top end package.
25:54
So let's just say is order 20%, 15% of the time,
25:57
you know, it's not going to be a loss leader on the front end,
26:00
but you are going to be able to have a funnel
26:02
to take people up to say, okay, I know how to coach them
26:05
from, you know, first time customer, I'm just going to test you out.
26:08
The lowest package.
26:10
I know exactly what I make there, not a ton, but I make money.
26:13
Then I get them to the middle
26:14
and then I coach them when it's important to use that upper tier.
26:18
But it's important about like what products go in there.
26:20
Because if you use all low margin products for all of your bundles,
26:25
then you're going to have a hard time no matter what you do.
26:27
And so you've got to figure out how to get the lowest cost from your providers.
26:31
And I say that being a vendor, you know, we've built very specific,
26:35
you know, programs that give our highest discounts,
26:39
our best turnaround times and things to the people who use us more frequently.
26:43
And so, you know, I think that's part of the structure where it's important to
26:47
just take a peek at that PNL know where each of your cost sets,
26:51
where you can price it based off your market.
26:53
Because if you're in LA County, it's going to be way different than Lima, Ohio.
26:57
Todd knows that deeply.
27:00
And then you build your goal based off that is.
27:02
Hey, I want 35, 40% of my orders to be that middle.
27:07
What's my revenue goal for for that package or bundle?
27:11
And then you do that for each one, and then you can kind of back into,
27:13
okay, now my 2026, you know, goal is X.
27:17
And here's what I have to do to go execute on it.
27:19
Because at the end of the day, you can do all the work you want.
27:23
Bundling, marketing, from a like a website standpoint.
27:27
But if you don't ever go talk to the customer
27:29
about what you're doing, nobody's going to ever know what you have.
27:32
And so it goes back to making sure the business is set up right,
27:36
and then just go out and have that conversation.
27:39
Oh, I love that.
27:40
I have, I have, I want to do one quick example that I have a question.
27:43
I want to pick your brain
27:44
a little bit more about the statement you said about
27:46
if you don't actually go out and talk to the customers,
27:49
because I think that's so key here.
27:51
But just to give you guys some insight, if you're going to do this activity,
27:55
you should look at what the sale price is.
27:59
So that's the total revenue at the top of.
28:01
You can look at it from all your revenue on your PNL.
28:04
You can email your bookkeeper, your accountant, and ask these questions.
28:08
Or if you want to look at it
28:09
from an individual package, what did you sell it for?
28:11
To the agent. Okay.
28:14
And then you have some cost of goods, cogs, dogs.
28:17
And I'll give you just some industry standards
28:20
because you're probably going to calculate your Cogs.
28:23
And then you're going to say, is this where I should be?
28:26
And much like Aaron said, if you're in LA versus
28:31
Lima, Ohio, they're pretty similar, but they're actually really different.
28:36
You can make some adjustments based on like, hey,
28:40
like it costs a lot more to live in LA than it does Lima.
28:44
So what we have seen from an industry
28:46
is your photographer cost.
28:50
So what you pay
28:52
a photographer to go out and do the job, this is to shoot it.
28:55
And also any mileage involved in that.
28:57
You're going to be 25 to 35%
29:01
of the total price of the package or the service.
29:05
Okay. That's that's a bubble.
29:07
That's what we've heard and that's what we've seen.
29:10
Then the other item that you need to look at is your editing cost.
29:14
So editing Spiro, cost anything in there that was related to the job.
29:19
That happens every job you get.
29:21
Okay. This is not your QuickBooks subscription.
29:23
This is not your cell phone bill.
29:25
This is just items related that happen every time that job turns.
29:29
We have seen that you're going to be a 5 to 10%
29:35
okay.
29:36
So you're going to be in that range for those fees.
29:39
And now one thing is, is if you're doing your own editing, which nobody should be.
29:43
And I think very few people are anymore.
29:45
Or if you're doing your own photography, this is probably more common.
29:50
You need to add in
29:52
what you should be paying yourself.
29:56
Okay.
29:57
Just if you leave a hole there
29:59
and you think you have this high margin, you're going to go hire
30:02
someone and try to scale and you're going to find that
30:04
it doesn't work because you actually have to pay your photographers.
30:07
So please add in.
30:08
That's why I suggest when anybody sets up their Spiro system, if they're solo right
30:12
now, to set your photographer pay out so that you can understand these ratios.
30:18
Okay, so
30:19
I don't want to do too much math on here, but I just want to give you that range.
30:22
You're probably in the 25 to 35% photographer cost and 5 to 10%,
30:27
probably 8 to 10%.
30:28
On all honesty is your editing and, software cost.
30:34
All right.
30:34
Sorry for all the math.
30:35
Y'all can just snap back to now.
30:38
Hopefully you didn't veer off the road with that and everybody safe out there.
30:42
So one thing
30:43
I love that you said, and you have a ton of experience
30:45
with this, and you've sold to a lot of realtors
30:48
with being the director of sales at Next Door Photos.
30:51
You said if you don't actually go out and talk to your clients.
30:55
But Aaron, that is a scary thing.
30:57
Help us out.
30:59
Yeah.
30:59
I mean, you talk to people every day.
31:01
It's no different. I think that's that's the piece of this.
31:04
And historically, photographers have pushed back,
31:09
sales in the traditional sense because agents are salespeople.
31:13
They get sold to every day, they sell to people every day.
31:16
And so it can feel kind of like this weird mismatch of talent
31:19
because you as a photographer,
31:21
maybe you got in the business, maybe you are a salesperson.
31:23
I'd say that's great.
31:25
Maybe you're not, and maybe you're a wedding photographer
31:28
that got a couple clients, but suddenly you're like,
31:29
I'm making really good money doing this.
31:31
I like this, I don't have to work all weekend anymore.
31:34
And then you build out, you know, this system,
31:36
I think, you know, and then you try to go talk to an agent
31:39
who's a professional salesperson and they,
31:41
you know, they push you around a little bit.
31:43
We, you know, we love our agents, but they're they're big personalities.
31:46
And so you've got to be you know, the first go is never all that fun.
31:50
That first cold call where they hang up on you, yell at you or whatever.
31:53
It's the pain of everybody's existence in sales.
31:56
But I think, you know, in this whole age of AI and,
32:02
automation and drip campaigns and ads and all this kind of stuff,
32:05
the number one thing you can do is walk into that office, pull that door open,
32:10
bring something with you, drop it off the front desk, ask to see the broker
32:13
owner or the team lead or whatever type of brokerage you're going in to say, hey,
32:17
can I come in on your next sales meeting and talk about real estate photography
32:21
to your team?
32:22
99% of the time they're going to be like, yes,
32:25
but it's going to be within three months.
32:26
We got a bunch of people coming, but that's fine.
32:28
Okay, now I got one on the list.
32:30
You know, when I was when I was doing the local owner piece
32:33
and doing the individual like on the ground sales, we had a goal
32:37
of every day to go pull on a certain number of doors.
32:40
And that's the beauty of real estate photography, is it takes you
32:43
to some far flung reaches of whatever you define your territory is.
32:46
And guess what is in every single town?
32:49
Real estate offices with real life people that are ready to talk to you and,
32:54
with who, who have a need for what you do.
32:57
And that to me, it trumps every other marketing activity in the world.
33:03
Because when they know your name, they know your face.
33:06
You're trustworthy. They'll trust you with their clients.
33:08
It starts to create that snowball effect.
33:12
From, from the business standpoint,
33:13
because then you get one good agent in that office and you get three
33:17
and you get five, then you get the brokerage deal,
33:20
and then you just keep moving down the street until you establish yourself,
33:24
as a, as a household name.
33:26
And I think that's, that's the other piece of it too, is you don't
33:28
if you live in a bigger region, let's say you live in Columbus, Ohio.
33:32
You don't need to declare, I'm going to win Columbus.
33:35
That's a big, big goal, right?
33:37
Like, how long did that take Todd for you like years.
33:41
I mean, we are barely double digits up.
33:44
I think we're just teetering between single and double digits a market share.
33:47
So even as we live as Ohio for ten plus years and we are in double digits
33:52
a market share.
33:53
Yeah.
33:53
I mean, but that doesn't mean it's not an incredible profit center
33:57
for you guys too, right? Right, right.
33:59
So I think it's about like, what's a suburban?
34:02
Where do you live?
34:03
What's the sized suburban central area that you live?
34:07
Go be the king of that place first or the queen of that place first.
34:11
And I live in a little county called Livingston County.
34:13
It's it's it's a great place to live, very community focused.
34:17
But that's where I centered my efforts on
34:19
because I could have gone further east and focused on metro Detroit.
34:23
But I was like, I know people here.
34:24
I've got two really incredible clients here, and how do I multiply that?
34:28
And so at the end of that first year, we were doing, you know,
34:31
nearly $200,000 of business in one single county
34:35
and that but that was only because I spent all my time there.
34:39
And so between shoots,
34:41
everybody's got time between shoots to go drive and pull two doors.
34:44
Don't go to Panera.
34:46
Don't eat up Red bull like, go to that office and go make some friends
34:50
and just always have stuff in the trunk of your car to give away.
34:53
Little Tchotchkes are great printed materials.
34:55
Even better.
34:57
Just go pull on
34:58
those doors and the after you do it five times a day for a week,
35:01
you'll get used to it. After three weeks, you'll be a pro.
35:04
Yeah.
35:04
I such good advice.
35:06
I love that there's another verbal attack to that.
35:08
I'm huge on verbals as well, like pull on doors.
35:11
Just thinking that the next time, like, I got to go pull that door open
35:14
and everybody you can be aligned with it, even assist you.
35:16
But tell your VA, hey,
35:17
I got a pull on two doors and they're like, what do you mean?
35:20
I just think there's so much great stuff there.
35:21
And you've done this for so long. It shows.
35:24
I'm so glad you made the point as to I.
35:27
I get this question asked all the time on coaching calls and in group calls
35:31
where they're saying, hey,
35:32
I just should I set up the CRM, should I do this email marketing?
35:35
Should I do these things?
35:36
I think I'm really going to go all in on
35:39
sending these types of digital communications,
35:43
and I'm not here
35:44
to tell you that there's not a time and a place for that.
35:47
But if you do, what is hard
35:51
going on two doors a day,
35:54
life will become easy.
35:57
And that is something that I just want.
36:00
If it makes you uncomfortable.
36:03
The idea of walking into a real estate office, you should probably do it.
36:07
And I was on a coaching call this week with a coach that I sit in with
36:10
and just listen to.
36:11
He coaches realtors, and he allows me to be in this and listen and I learn as well.
36:15
They are talking about cold calling or making calls,
36:18
not even necessarily cold calling.
36:19
But the idea is like, if you've never done this before,
36:23
the first door you pull on is going to be the hardest
36:27
because you're going to psych yourself up in the car,
36:30
you're probably going to leave one or 2 or 10 parking lots
36:33
because you've psyched yourself out too much.
36:35
But that first door is going to be the hardest and only gets easier
36:39
from there, so I would.
36:42
I highly agree with Aaron with this idea of building
36:45
relationships, getting to know people, connecting with people human to human.
36:48
We are just just strong proponents and strong supporters of that idea.
36:55
Now, Aaron.
36:55
So give us a cheat sheet.
36:57
I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit.
36:58
I hope this is okay for a Friday morning when we record this, but
37:01
say I am doing that, I'm walking into that door
37:05
and I have this idea of, trying to set the meeting.
37:09
That's great.
37:09
That's a great idea. Get on the books for a meeting.
37:12
Even if it's three months from now, it's a success.
37:15
It's something that you've accomplished.
37:17
Let's go back to the idea of like, let's say I'm talking to
37:20
an individual realtor or smaller group, and I'm trying to tell them,
37:24
the importance, features, benefits, if you will, of like why
37:27
they should take more than photos only with a floor plan.
37:31
You know, that's a 2D, 3D, whatever services you want.
37:34
But can you give us just some verbiage that we might be able to use
37:38
when we walk in, to help the agents understand the importance
37:43
and how they're going to have more listing babies by using floor plans.
37:48
Yeah.
37:49
Between f pole listing babies and pulling doors, I think we might have our own,
37:54
you know, dictionary of New Sayings that for this group.
37:59
I think, you know, I tend to be guided
38:02
by current events as what my value at is, inherently,
38:06
we all know media does better for listings on any portal on the MLS.
38:10
Whatever.
38:12
We know, you know, certain types of media do better.
38:14
But I think when you go to product based selling
38:18
and you're so specific that my high quality, my high
38:21
quality lifestyle video is going to it's going to get you more shoots.
38:24
It doesn't resonate in the same way, but maybe something more specific
38:28
that they're feeling. Right.
38:29
I think if this is like, what's the stack of pain
38:32
that everybody deals with every single day?
38:34
And then from a listing agent, you know, point of view or just a general
38:38
agent point of view, media is somewhere in the middle of that stack.
38:43
It becomes urgent when they win a listing, but up until that point,
38:46
they're not thinking about how videos are going to help them.
38:49
Every day they're thinking about how to get that next listing,
38:52
how to not lose their current listing, and how to survive in this world of,
38:56
you know, commission compression and litigation
38:59
and portal wars and brokerage wars and all this kind of stuff.
39:03
And so we have to be really honest with ourselves
39:06
that we're not the most important thing in their lives right now.
39:09
We may be at some point,
39:11
but every day on the average day, it's just not going to be that.
39:14
And so I think I look to like what pain do you want to remove from their lives?
39:19
And to me, that means how am I going to make them stand out
39:23
as compared to every other agent that's pitching that listing?
39:26
Because there's going to be multiple
39:27
agents on every listing pitching something, and what services,
39:31
and the way you provide your service can make them differentiated.
39:36
And so I would talk about, you know, you know, the lack of listings.
39:40
The time on market has increased.
39:42
You know, Todd, you came up in the same time I did, back
39:46
in 2017, 18, 19 and 20.
39:48
We had crazy years, right?
39:51
Or just listings were I think we were up to 6 million plus listings a year.
39:54
And we're not we're now in 4 million.
39:56
So it's just a different landscape.
39:58
And so how do we take that and say, okay, the person who utilizes my real estate
40:04
photography business is going to get photos.
40:07
They're going to get other add ons.
40:09
Let's just use floorplans. It's an easy one for me.
40:11
They're going to get an option of of a drone, a 3D,
40:15
a lifestyle video or a walk through video.
40:17
And then how do you
40:18
then use that in the long tail to win that next listing, baby.
40:22
Right.
40:23
And I think that's where you coach them on one piece of listing.
40:26
Media is great to get a household.
40:28
That's a fair statement.
40:30
If your house has professional, high quality real estate photography on it,
40:33
that's a good thing and we're happy about that.
40:35
But to share it on social.
40:37
What's the most interactive feature video to share it on?
40:42
An email list with advanced investors,
40:44
floor plans, maybe 3D to to to have something
40:49
after the fact of like a lookbook for your,
40:51
you know, future listing presentations,
40:53
you know, photos floor plans, testimonials, different things like that.
40:57
But again, I think you said this too, like coaching them to understand that
41:01
how they share this outside of the MLS is an incredible
41:06
value that we, as in the real estate photography business, can offer because
41:10
more media, more posts, more interaction
41:13
doesn't necessarily sell the house, but it most certainly gets you
41:17
more eyeballs on you and your brand from a real estate agent standpoint.
41:21
And I think that's what I would go in and talk about is,
41:23
you know, we're not just here for the one listing.
41:25
We're here to get you your next listing.
41:28
Yeah. Yeah.
41:29
That is and that's a great way that you're going to differentiate yourself
41:33
from the next photographer who comes in
41:35
and says hey I've got a really great camera.
41:37
I take good photos and when you when you can connect
41:41
with them and understand their, their pain and what they're trying to solve,
41:44
I think that's so insightful.
41:47
You know, we talked about this idea.
41:48
I had an agent and this was coincidentally the agent that I was talked about
41:52
who's who coaches now,
41:54
but he was a client of mine many years ago when he was selling real estate.
41:58
And I went in to sell him.
42:00
If you sell, if you will.
42:02
And and we're big on.
42:04
And I was big on like doing a video much like you mentioned there like videos
42:08
a get the listing, get attention on social media.
42:12
This was probably 10 or 15 years ago,
42:13
so we were still drawing floor plans on, you know, graph paper.
42:17
And he said, okay, great.
42:21
Doing a video will help me get a listing.
42:23
So I'll do the videos and then I'll just delete them.
42:27
I'm like, Austin, what are you what do you mean?
42:30
He's like, well, why would I spend my time?
42:32
I'm like, no, you need to link it on.
42:34
He's like, well, why would I spend my time linking this anywhere?
42:37
Like I'm going to get the listing.
42:39
Like, what does it matter?
42:40
I'll show it in the listing presentation,
42:42
get the listing, then I'm going to delete it
42:44
or I'm not going to have anybody spend any more time on it.
42:46
And I think just the why behind is so important.
42:50
And we all know and and maybe we don't.
42:54
Maybe it's time to brush up on some of these whys
42:56
with these features of benefits and how the your agents use them.
42:59
But I made this mistake with one of the our largest clients,
43:03
and I remember we I sat down with her and she brought this idea to me.
43:08
I think it was like, hey, could we be on camera?
43:10
This is probably ten years ago, or do you do this type of service
43:14
and or it would be great if you could start doing this service.
43:18
And she thought she had this brand new idea
43:20
and like we had been doing that service forever.
43:23
So like, I just didn't take it upon myself to put myself in their shoes
43:28
and to slow down a little bit, to spend time
43:31
with the agents, to spend time telling them what and where.
43:34
So I think it's a very important thing that Aaron brought up is like
43:37
their pain point is probably not you right now.
43:40
And if you can align to what their current pain point is, you
43:44
then become relevant sitting there at that table, drinking coffee with them.
43:48
Yeah, I think too, like
43:49
it's really, really, really incredibly easy to sit here on a Friday
43:53
morning after three cups of coffee and tell people how they should do it.
43:57
So I think it's important to recognize, like, throughout all these processes
44:01
and years, and I'm sure Todd has, you know, the good old war story,
44:04
like you're going to walk through a door, you're going to think
44:06
you're going to pitch something great, you're going to walk out.
44:07
And like I said, nothing, I left nothing, and I have no idea what happened.
44:11
And that's just that's just life.
44:13
And I think that's the that's what keeps things fun.
44:16
And interesting is you can look back on,
44:18
you know, certain experiences or full brokerage meetings where you just bomb,
44:21
but then you, you know, take it and learn from it in the future.
44:24
But I think the part that is the thing that needs to be done,
44:28
I think, Todd, you said this too is like, do the hard thing
44:31
over and over and it just becomes part of your normal day.
44:34
And I think that's the part
44:35
where photographers are so good at dialing in their product
44:39
and dialing in their offer and making sure everything looks great.
44:43
But that same level of effort on top of the business will will yield whatever.
44:49
If you just want to be a great high volume single shooter, you get there.
44:53
If you want to build teams and grow regionally, you will do that.
44:56
But you know, being in this role that I'm in now, I have an opportunity
44:59
to talk to every spectrum of leader in the photography business world.
45:03
And I tell you, the number one thing that helps them is having equal
45:08
like maniacal focus on product and in their business.
45:11
And it's just this very rare to see one or the other.
45:17
Yeah.
45:17
For for sure.
45:18
And that's having both of those at both of those sides
45:22
really help you continue to, to expand and grow and reach your goals.
45:26
Grow, grow.
45:27
Does it mean that you're going in numbers just like Aaron said, but,
45:30
you know, ultimately reaching your goals and the goal is
45:33
and sometimes I forget this and it's easy, but the goal is the reason,
45:36
the personal reason why you started your business.
45:39
And, sometimes we get so wrapped up in like, I'm going to sacrifice
45:43
personal for my business, and then eventually I'll get too personal.
45:47
And I that's just that long, twisty road that I don't think ever loops back.
45:50
Or at least it did in my situation.
45:52
Aaron,
45:53
when you were at sync, you shared a cool thing
45:56
that is relatively new that you guys worked really hard on your marketplace.
46:01
Can you let us know a little bit more about what that is?
46:04
Yeah.
46:04
So a couple like a month or so ago, we launched our photographer marketplace,
46:09
in which we created profiles for all of our users across the globe.
46:15
That showcases, their business information.
46:19
It's customizable
46:20
so you can log into your Cubicasa account and edit this as well.
46:24
It showcases how long you've been in business, how big you
46:26
are, where you serve, what you service.
46:30
You know, your product set as well as kind of some recent shoot
46:33
examples as well as your kind of heatmap
46:36
based off where you've done scans.
46:39
The whole goal of this is we we kind of looked up sometime last year
46:43
and realized we had a really large photographer list of customers,
46:47
and we got to kind of excited about how can we utilize that
46:51
and give agents or,
46:54
you know, brokerages a way to find photographers,
46:57
because on the other side of it, I'm sure lots of people know we've gotten
47:00
lots of feedback around this other program we offer, which is our MLS partnerships.
47:04
And we go and we build partnerships with the MLS is,
47:08
to basically help provide this trust and safety layer
47:11
to say, we like this floor plan, we trust the information behind it.
47:14
We want our subscribers and agents to use it.
47:17
We've got 150 of those.
47:19
Over a million agents under subscriber in those MLS.
47:23
MLS is in our next phase is trying to push that marketplace into the MLS to say,
47:28
hey, if you need a photographer, go to this place and it'll highlight
47:33
what they do or how much and give them a place to say, hey,
47:37
I want to reach out to this person and book a shoot
47:40
or, you know, I want more information or give me a call or whatever that is.
47:43
And so we've got an internal metric.
47:45
We want to send leads to every photographer. We want to.
47:48
We are we don't charge anything for this.
47:50
We don't ask for anything in return.
47:52
We don't, you know, we don't follow up on the lead on your behalf.
47:55
We just want to be that clearinghouse,
47:57
because we have two sides of interested parties that we can connect
48:00
and add more value to our photographers every single day.
48:04
Oh, that is fabulous.
48:05
And that is live for all of you.
48:07
Just log into Cubicasa account is live is not like something
48:11
you have to click the button.
48:12
So there is something out there for you if you have a YouTube account,
48:15
if you want to customize it, log in and there's lots of fun things
48:18
you can do with it.
48:19
Yeah, yeah.
48:21
And part of that for, you know, feedback loop came from two
48:24
is we launched integrations with Redfin and Realtor.com,
48:28
which automatically host the floorplan in a
48:31
or the our cubicasa tours in a more enhanced manner.
48:34
So they look a little bit different depending on what portal you're on.
48:37
But they bring them out of the carousel.
48:40
They're still in there.
48:41
The way the agents setting them up in the MLS,
48:43
we don't adjust that, but we do bring a viewer
48:45
that's a little bit more interactive into that.
48:47
And now for our preferred photographers.
48:49
We have photographer branding inside of those as well
48:53
so that as agents, view those listings on those portals,
48:57
they can see inside of that tour or floor plan.
49:00
It's got your company name in there, clicks it, it goes out to that,
49:04
photographer's profile again, because we believe,
49:07
you know, that photographers are and can will continue
49:10
to be the lifeblood and, you know, field team to get the best media out there.
49:14
And so, we wanted to make sure that we had a place for those to do that.
49:18
It's still new.
49:20
So if I get any emails about I haven't gotten any leads yet, we promise
49:23
this is the year that we're spending an immense amount of time on it
49:26
and resources, but we're really excited for that.
49:30
And, you know, we hope to kind of be that place where,
49:33
you know, you you can look at it as a growth piece
49:36
that you don't really have to do anything for.
49:39
And it's just nice that since you partnered with Cubicasa
49:42
that you get this other benefit.
49:44
Yeah, I love that you guys are always supporting the community.
49:47
Now, I don't know how much I heard something about a date coming up in March.
49:51
Aaron, I, I,
49:52
I mean, don't let me strong arm me into giving any information, but what is
49:56
something happening in March.
49:58
Yeah.
49:58
So towards the end of March, we are going to be launching, a new product.
50:04
Some of us internally joked that it's the best, worst kept secret.
50:08
But, you know, I will say we've got something really exciting
50:11
coming up, for our photographers that will help you.
50:15
You know, continue to save money, time.
50:18
I always say internally, the number of tabs you have open
50:20
on your your browser from a provider and vendor sense.
50:23
So stay tuned.
50:25
We'll be making big announcements around that.
50:28
Coming, you know, towards the end of March.
50:30
Great. That's exciting.
50:31
How can we find out more about Cubicasa,
50:35
contact the team if we have questions.
50:39
Yeah. And follow our socials.
50:41
Our marketing person would be very sad if I didn't say that.
50:44
So find us on Instagram and Facebook.
50:47
We've got a great user Facebook
50:48
group as well if you ever want to interact with that.
50:51
The great Tammy manages that group who everybody knows and loves.
50:54
Yes, for sure.
50:55
Out in the industry,
50:57
but if you ever have any questions, you can email sales@cubicasa.com.
51:01
We've got a great team who can follow up and make sure
51:04
that you get what you need, even if it's just questions, feedback.
51:08
And I always like to anchor on feedback.
51:09
Our chief product officer, we call him RB, but his name is RNA.
51:14
Every Friday afternoon, he spends an hour reviewing customer feedback.
51:18
So if you send something in to us, that's feedback.
51:21
Our our support team tags it as that.
51:23
It goes into a special inbox.
51:25
And there is never a piece of feedback that goes unread.
51:28
And I can tell you from being a participant in a lot of these
51:31
planning meetings, we hear about it and once we get kind of a groundswell
51:35
of what people want to change, we've absolutely integrated it.
51:38
So keep sending it,
51:41
and things like that.
51:42
And then I'd be remiss not to add,
51:44
if you are interested in becoming a preferred photographer,
51:47
where you add a floor plan on every listing,
51:49
always feel free to reach out if you have questions about it.
51:51
Our teams. Great.
51:53
They'll take a look at the cost, will help you
51:55
calculate things, and they won't yell at you if the cost doesn't fit.
51:59
At that point in time, we'll we'll continue on working together.
52:02
Either way.
52:03
That's great.
52:04
Lots of great resources for you all.
52:06
Thanks for supporting the community, Aaron.
52:08
Be sure to check out keep an Ear Out for that announcement coming up.
52:11
And also just to mention, Cubicasa is completely integrated inside of Spiro.
52:17
So we make it easy for you.
52:18
Again, I love the idea of Less Tabs.
52:20
If you ever have a zoom call with Nick Kellis on my team.
52:22
I love him to death, but he always has 342 tabs
52:26
open, and I love to give him a hard time for it.
52:29
So, the less tabs, the better.
52:31
But you are integrated. What makes it super simple
52:33
You never have to create a project inside of Cubicasa app the drafts
52:38
created for you,
52:39
the floor plan and the other media as you choose comes right back in.
52:43
So trying to streamline your process together,
52:46
with Cubicasa, and we are excited about this partnership.
52:50
Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
52:53
I hope you guys,
52:55
keep us up to date with,
52:57
what's happening in the industry and, enjoy the slopes this weekend.
53:00
Hey. Thanks, man. Thanks for having us.
53:03
Spiro has been an incredible partner, and, Yeah, thanks for all you do for the
53:07
industry and and being, the plumbing of of all the media that gets out and about.
53:11
So we appreciate it.
53:13
Hey, I love it. I'm happy to be the plumbing.
53:15
So, it's,
53:17
I, I don't know, something clever to say with that, but I'm going to work on that.
53:21
So I. Yeah.
53:23
That's your next outfit for Spiro Sync
53:25
is a plumbers outfit.
53:26
Yeah, I need something good. Awesome.
53:28
Okay, I'm going to run with that. So,
53:31
thanks again. Yeah. Our pleasure.
53:33
Thanks so much.
53:34
All right, everybody, that's going to do it for us this week.
53:37
We are back with another exciting guest next week.
53:40
This is our series of having guest on from Sync,
53:44
to teach you what they brought to the conference.
53:46
So we're excited to continue through this series.
53:48
If you have a topic idea, please let us know.
53:51
Though we're always happy to discuss this.
53:53
Many of you are like, hey,
53:54
the only problem with the podcast is you need to do it twice a week.
53:58
I was like, you, this is like, thank you.
54:01
Like for listening to me.
54:03
And twice a week. Wow. That's a lot of Todd and Craig.
54:06
So we have some ideas though of maybe some other people at Spiro
54:09
or wow, that you all are getting to know, but if you have an idea, let us know.
54:13
We always want to support you. We're here for you.
54:15
You can email us hello@Spiro.media.
54:19
And, if you if it's a attention to Todd or Craig,
54:23
just put it in there and the team will get it over to us.
54:25
And we really will read it.
54:27
Much like Aaron does at Cubicasa.
54:29
All right, everybody, hey, thanks for spending some time with us.
54:32
Be sure to be thankful for all the blessings you have.
54:36
And take a breath.
54:38
Thanks, everybody.
54:38
We'll see you next week.