Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #449 Screen Addiction - A Conversation With Brad Marshall

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#449 Screen Addiction - A Conversation With Brad Marshall · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, the number one thing that I tell parents is
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: to start thinking about screens holistically.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: So what I mean by that is stop trying.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: To differentiate between you know, them doing social media, them doing.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: YouTube and now here's the stars of our show, my
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: mum and dad.
• 0:26
  Speaker 4: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm on my own today,
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: but well not quiet. Kylie's not joining me. But I
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: do have somebody that I think is just knowledgeable when
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: it comes to screens and our kids, particularly specifically boys
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: and gaming. I'm speaking with Brad Marshall today on the
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: Happy Families podcast. Brad is known as the Unplugged Psychologist,
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: written a couple of books and working in private practice
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: in Sydney. I'm guessing at the moment, Brad, it would
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: be pretty hard for people to get their kids to
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: see you. There'd be a lot of parents who are
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: concerned about their kids and the way they're interacting with screens.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, being the start of a school year,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: there's always a lot of trouble getting kids off screens
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: and back to school.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: So the wait list is pretty specifically.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Long for the clinic at the moment, but hopefully we
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: can get some information out to parents via podcasts and
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  Speaker 2: other means like this.
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  Speaker 3: That's great, great to be here.
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  Speaker 4: So Brad, describe for people who are perhaps not familiar
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: with what you would do as a psychologist in relation
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  Speaker 4: to kids screens.
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  Speaker 5: And I'm going to use the word addiction.
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: You can say what you want about that, but just
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: that's the way that parents are referring to it, kids screens, addictions,
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: that sort of stuff.
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  Speaker 5: What is the work that you do specifically, Yeah, so.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I mean for a little over the last ten years,
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  Speaker 2: I have a clinic, the Internet Addiction Clinic kids Space,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: and he's going to be renamed the Internet Gaming Disorder
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Clinic quite soon, as you reference there.
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  Speaker 3: Some people don't like the addiction term, but anyway, if
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: we just sort of moved past that.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So what I do on the day to day is
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I see kids and families, mostly boys, but some girls
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  Speaker 2: as well, that are struggling with screens, gaming, media, YouTube,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And sometimes they've got
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: other things going on as well in the mental health sphere,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: so depression, ADHD.
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  Speaker 3: Anxiety, but not always.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, I see those children teenagers and their families,
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  Speaker 2: and I help them calm things down and get back
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: to some level of normal again.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm excited to talk to you about all these
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: things today for a couple of reasons. First of all,
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  Speaker 4: it's a topic that parents cannot wrap their heads around
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: and get enough information about. It's one of those things
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: that I'm endlessly asked about, and obviously with the work
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: that you do, you are as well. But additionally, in
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: just over a month, on April six, you and I
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: are going to be joining forces with a whole lot
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: of other experts in issues related to boys for the
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: Happy Families Bringing Up Boys Summit, and as a special
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: guest on the summit, I thought it would be great
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: to bring you into the podcast and give people a
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: taste of what you're offering, because the summit is going
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: to be an extended version of this with a whole
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: lot of great information about boys and screens, boys and emotions,
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: boys and friends, boys and sex, boys and you name it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: We're talking about everything boy related, and you are our
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: boys and gaming guy. So for our conversation today, I
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: actually want to start off by being a bit provocative,
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: which is gosh. I was going to say that's unlike me,
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: but that was sarcasm intended. I tend to be a
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: little bit of a I like to poke the bear.
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  Speaker 4: There's a brand new research paper that's been published just
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: in the last few months. It comes from the Oxford
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  Speaker 4: Internet Institute at the University of Oxford, highly prestigious university,
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  Speaker 4: prestigious group of researchers, and the headline of the article says,
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: and I quote, time spent playing video games is unlikely
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: to impact well being. And I thought, who better to
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: talk to about this than Brad Marshall, the unplugged psychologist,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: the guy who spends his days working with kids whose
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: well being is arguably being impacted quite strenuously because of
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: their time spent playing video games, at least that's the
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: perception of their parents. I've sent the article to you,
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: and I thought we could just talk about it for
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: a bit and pick it a little bit and talk
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: about why this is such a confusing and challenging issue
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  Speaker 4: for parents. When the research is saying one thing and
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: parents are experiencing another, and then there's researchers over here
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: that are supporting the parents and some.
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: Who are arguing with them. What did you think when
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: you read this article.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's really interesting, and I do agree with you.
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  Speaker 2: It's very difficult for parents to decipher this stuff. You know,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: even parents that may be academic themselves. It's a bit
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: of a mind field because you have to really understand
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: what they're looking at and what they're reporting and whether
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: it's a sound study or not. And you know, I've
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: said to you on previous occasions justin I'm a pretty
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: terrible academic. I'm doing a PhD in treatment of gaming
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: at the moment, but I wouldn't sort of describe myself
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: as a research or an academic. But I think my
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: first impressions of this article were, I mean, there's some
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: classic stuff there that people who have done research before
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  Speaker 2: would understand is not ideal. And this is not to
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: say that we should just ignore the whole paper, but
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: there are some things in there, like the paper wasn't
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  Speaker 2: pre registered, the study itself wasn't pretty registered.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: So for parents at.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Home, what that means is, you know, you're not really
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  Speaker 2: that they haven't independently logged on and talked about what
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: they're trying to achieve in this paper. And the reason
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: that's a problem is that it doesn't really constitute gold
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: standard practice because it means that some people, and I'm
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: not suggesting these authors have, but some people can then
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: go on a bit of a phishing expedition and kind
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: of find what they want to find, if you will,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: in the data. But if we just push past some
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: of those sorts of design limitations and the fact that
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: there is no qualification of limitations, and the fact that
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: it's not actually published, I mean it's in review, so
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  Speaker 2: it is not being peer reviewed yet, so it looks
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  Speaker 2: like a paper that you should very much listen to.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: The biggest part of this though, that has me concerned
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: is that you know, parents would hear other experts say,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: oh see, look, don't worry about it. There's no problem
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  Speaker 2: with gaming for your kids. Look at this study here,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: it's done by Oxford. But again the devil is in
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: the detail, right. The average age of the people that
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: participants in this study are thirty four, and they do
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: not take into account kids. And we know that in
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Australia gaming mostly impacts kids, and so the precipice of
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: that of gaming and gaming issues in Australia is sixteen.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: So they haven't really looked at the cohort that are
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: most impacted. And then, of course there is the massive
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  Speaker 2: elephant in the room here with this one, in that
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  Speaker 2: they have gotten their data for this study via the
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: gaming industry.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Right after the break, we're going to give three tips
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: for what parents can do if they feel like their
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: kids are on those screens, particularly gaming a little bit
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: too much.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: dot com dot au.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the type
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: or parent who just wants answers.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: My name is doctor Justin Colsil.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: I'm hanging out with the soon to be doctor but
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: currently the Unplugged psychologist Brad Marshall.
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: And Brad has written a couple of.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Books about Internet and gaming disorder and kids and screens
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: and all those sorts of things, which we will link
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: to in the show notes.
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: Brad, let's talk practical stuff.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: We've geeked out a bit on the science and probably
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: lost three quarters of our listeners because of that, But
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: I think we've got to talk practical stuff, right. What
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: would you say is the number one thing the most
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: helpful thing that you've seen in your clinical practice that
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: makes a difference, that really moves the needle for parents
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  Speaker 4: who are struggling with kids who are using their screens
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  Speaker 4: in ways that let's call it unhealthy, using their screens
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  Speaker 4: in unhealthy ways.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Look, the number one thing that I tell parents is
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: to start thinking about screens holistically. So what I mean
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: by that is stop trying to differentiate between you know,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: them doing social media, them doing YouTube, them doing Netflix
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: and streaming, them doing gaming. So many parents go, oh, look,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: but I'm a rock star parent. I limit my child
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: to two hours a day of gaming, you know, But
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: then you look at it and it's well, they've got
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: six hours of YouTube all that's eight hours a day.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: And so the first thing for parents is is don't
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: worry too much about what they're actually doing. I mean,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: within reason, you don't want them sort of doing illegal
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: things or unsafe things. But for the most part, try
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: not to get into the micromanaging of exactly what's going on.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: But it's an overall amount of time online that can
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  Speaker 2: impact their well being. So that's the number one tip there.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: I'm going to just jump in, Brad, because it gets
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: confusing for parents as well, because they'll be like, Okay, well,
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  Speaker 4: I'm trying to minimize the amount of time they're on
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  Speaker 4: a screen so that they can do all the other
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: things in life that matter, like be with their friends
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: and be active and be involved in sports or hobbies
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: or other activities. But now with I mean, you look
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: at what the last couple of years with COVID has done.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: They're supposed to be online so they can do all
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: of their school work, and they tell me that they're
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: doing the school work, but then when I walk into
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: the room, they're on YouTube or they're playing Minecraft, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: I tell them they've only got an hour, but they've
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: now used forty five minutes and they've been gaming, and
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: I say, well, I still need another hour because I've
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: got to do my homework. And the parents are kind
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: of up about that. So that there's a boundaries issue,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: isn't there There's a I mean, you want the kids
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: to have a certain amount of screen time and then
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: and then close it down, except there's so much of
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: their life that is now on there, and that whole
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: what kind versus how much issue right raises ahead.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, and that's a very good debate
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: and there is actually a bit of research around you know,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the quality if you will, so something educational versus something
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: that's sort of not educational or recreational. But the problem
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: is that for parents you have to be like a
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: proper hacker to understand what's going on. You know, you
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: can get sold these software applications, but it becomes very
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: difficult and kids find their way around them, so that
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: ends up as a bit of a minefield. You know.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: My first step in the tech diet for your child
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: and team my parenting book The Unplug Step number one
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: is to control the Wi Fi and that's a holistic
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: approach around. If you control the Wi Fi and there
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: is a sad amount of hours that they're on per day,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: then that's giving them some autonomy overlook. You know, you've
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: got two hours or three hours or whatever it is
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: that you agree with them, and essentially you are very
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: much steering them towards doing their homeworking that time, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: if not, the teachers are going to tell you. But
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you can't micro manage that because it ends up in
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: a bit of a war in your house if you're
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: trying to overlook them on the screen twenty four to
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: seven and kids, you know, have many ways around that
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's it. It turns into a power struggle,
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: doesn't it.
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: I wonder what's the most common complaint that you have
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: from parents when they bring their kids to see you?
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: The number one thing, And I know you're dealing primarily
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: with the clinical population, but even so a lot of
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: parents will relate.
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: I'm sure.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, so I'm going to be difficulty and
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: not give you one. I'll give you two. So it's sleep,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: especially for teenagers. And the second one is especially primary
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: school kids spending money, just not being able to really
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: understand all the micro transactions and I've got my card
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: linked to something and i can't understand why they keep
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: clicking on it, you know. And it's kind of like
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you going to some resort in Fiji, you know, and
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: having a tab there and then wondering why your kids
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: are ordering room service and all the rest of it.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Like it's just funny money to them, right, They don't understand,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: and so they're going to run your tab up and
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: deal with it later.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, We've got the Pokemon Go for our
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: seven year old. She just loves playing Pokemon Go. She
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: loves trying to capture an Evy or a Pikachu or whatever,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: and we were unavailable for her one evening and we
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: told her big sister, eighteen years old. We said, hey, Ella,
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: download Pokemon Go and just take her for a walk
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: for an hour. Go and catch a coup couple of Pokemon.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: And what that will do is that will give us
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: the time that we need to get the stuff done
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: that we're doing. We just need a bit of space.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Please go and do that. So Ella download a Pokemon
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Go and then headed the phone over to Emily and
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: she spent fifty bucks in five minutes playing Pokemon Go.
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: She just started downloading stuff.
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: And Ella kind of came to us and was like, Dad,
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: my bank account's just been drained with Pokemon Go. So
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: we got to have that conversation then. But we I mean,
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: we polease it differently as adults. But Ella wasn't watching.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: She was she's eighteen. She just let it go for it.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: But it's not just the spending money on games. I'd
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: imagine that you'd see a lot of kids who are
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: gambling online.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's mainly the teenagers, but it's
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: been getting younger and younger and you know, I think
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: for some kids it is sort of premeditated, but for
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of kids it's not.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: They just get sucked into it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: But it's very common for parents to come to me
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: and say, you know, there's a couple of thousand dollars
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: worth of chargers on there.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the record in my clinic is seventy.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Thousand, but yeah, yeah, and there's been plenty of kids
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: in the tens of thousands as well. That's a little
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: bit more premeditated than by accident. But anyway, but yeah,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: and the sleep one that I mentioned before, for a
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: lot of families there, you know, waking up and seeing
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: that your child's waken up at five AM or has
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: been up in the middle of the night mining or grinding.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: As they call it. So it can get really tricky,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: and you can see how that can impact on well being.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: You know, they go to school really tired and they're
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: pretty ratty with their behavior.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Then so it has a snowball and that.
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: Kind of brings us full circle. We need to wrap
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: it up.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: But if we come full circle to this study from
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: the Oxford Internet Institute, well being may not have been
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: markedly impacted. In a study of thousands and thousands of
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: mainly adults who are involved in gaming, with data coming
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: from the gaming industry. But what you and I both
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: see as parents saying, but my kids are driving me crazy.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: It's affecting my well being and it is affecting their
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: well being, and we need to be able to be
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: helpful around that. So, what a great conversation for people
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: who would like to know more because we've barely scratched
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: the surface. Whether it's boys and the explicit content that
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: they're finding online, whether it's boys and then NonStop gaming,
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: or the fact that they're staying up and playing on
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: their screens all night, or being sneaky or deceitful or devious,
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: or whether they're gambling or any of those sorts of things.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: The Bringing Up Boys Summit presented by Happy Families. It's
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: on April sixth. Keep a lookout on the Happy Famili's
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: Facebook page. We'll have a whole lot more information about
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: that soon. Brad, what a great conversation. If people want
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: to find out more about you and the work that
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: you're doing as the Unplugged Psychologist, where would we send them?
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just jump on.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: My website Unplugged Psychologist dot com do a you and
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you'll be able to find everything there or you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: the usual social media stuff as well. Ironically, that's where
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: parents land sometimes. Otherwise I'll see you at the summit.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: I just realized what you said. That is so funny.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: You've got to go online to find the guy that
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: helps people with their online problems.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: That's the already is not lost on me, Justin. But
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that's where parents are, so you've got to go where
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: they are.
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: Right, brilliant stuff.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: Bridge Media.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if you'd like
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: More info about how to make your family happier, especially
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: the Bringing Up Boys Summit presented by Happy Families April six,
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: you can get all the info you need at Happy
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: families dot com dot a you