Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 59 - What Happened to the gods in Egypt?

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Ep. 59 - What Happened to the gods in Egypt? · Martyr's Row

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This week on Martyrs' Row... Is Winnie the Pooh
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based on John the Baptist? Are children's Bibles
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actually folklore? If you're ever in Egypt, watch
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out for the frog -headed goddess. She'll try
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to kiss ya. Does Jeb Bush have lice? I don't
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know! Let's find out! This week on Martyrs' Row!
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3, 2, 1! Saint Vitus, a youth of Sicily, was
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from his childhood instructed in the faith of
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Christ, and though but young in years, was steadfast
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in the fear of God. When his own father sought
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by threats and cruelty to turn him from the gospel,
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Vitus remained unmoved, choosing rather to suffer
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affliction than deny his Lord. In the persecution
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under Diocletian, he was seized with his faithful
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companions, Modestus and Credentia, and brought
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before the emperor, who promised him riches and
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honor if he would sacrifice unto the idols. But
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the young confessor refused every offer, declaring
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that Christ alone was worthy of his worship.
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After enduring many torments with unwavering
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faith, he yielded up his spirit unto God. Thus,
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this youthful martyr, put to shame the wisdom
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of the mighty, showing that the grace of Christ
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maketh even the youngest steadfast unto death.
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Anno Domini, 303. Oh, that's weird. Let's try
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this again. Three, two, one. Oh, there you are.
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That was weird. Oops. Is your snapper off? Yeah.
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Yeah. My hands are occupied. Oh, okay. Very good.
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That's a weird thing to say. I had to double
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snap you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll
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have to remember that for later. Paul, I think
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it's story time. Oh. And I want you to pay attention
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because I want you to hear what I'm reading.
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I was really trying to zone out. And tell me
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what's wrong with it. Okay. You ready? Now I'm
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nervous. Okay. Yeah. Adam and Eve lived happily
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together in their beautiful new home, and everything
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was perfect for a while, until the day when everything
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went wrong. God had a horrible enemy. His name
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was Satan. Satan had once been the most beautiful
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angel, but he didn't want to be just an angel.
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He wanted to be God. He grew proud and evil and
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full of hate, and God had to send him out of
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heaven. Satan was seething with anger and looking
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for a way to hurt God. He wanted to stop God's
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plan, stop this love story right there. So he
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distinguished himself as a snake and waited in
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the garden. Now, God had given Adam and Eve only
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one rule. Don't eat the fruit on that tree, God
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told them, because if you do, you'll think you
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know everything. You'll stop trusting me and
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then death and sadness and tears will come. Paul,
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do you see anything wrong with that? Where should
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I begin? Exactly. Maybe the beginning. So the
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thing is, is like, this is one of those things
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that has been hard for me. Yeah. Where like,
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I literally read this to my five -year -old and
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I went, this is all wrong. Yes. But I also went,
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but if I explain how it's wrong. He's not really
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going to. It's easier just to tell the story
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right. Yes. Yeah. So. Then have to explain why
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that's wrong. So this is a complex issue for
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me. Yeah. Because this is a like commonly, and
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I almost don't want to flash it, but I think
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I did while I was reading it. Do you mean to
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blur it? No, it's okay. Doc some. But the thing
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is, is like, this is like, okay. So. Are we going
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to write our own kids book? Is that what I'm
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hearing? Well, people have, like N .T. Wright
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has written one. Oh, that's right, yeah. Yeah,
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there's a bunch of them. But is there anything
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that stuck out to you that you remember? There
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is quite a few things. Okay, what was one of
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the things that stuck out to you? I think, well,
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the biggest one is the narrative around the Satan.
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Yes. When it's like... But that's not what it
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says. Right. I think that's the biggest one.
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And then it's like, and he was so mad. Right.
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And then it's like, he just disguised himself
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as a serpent. Yeah. Where are you getting that
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from? Correct. Yeah. I think that's the easiest
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one to point at. Yeah. There are other ones as
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well. Yes. I mean, even the idea of like, here
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they are living in their new home. And it's like,
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everything's perfect. Right. It's like, that's
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not at all what this is. Correct. That's not
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the picture that... the story paints in genesis
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no it actually talks about lack and there's things
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that need to be created still and and work yeah
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yeah work to be done right and then and then
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it's just funny because it's and god had this
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horrible enemy it's like well no well in the
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in what i just read the feeling that you get
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from it that what it's framing is this idea that
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um god was had this evil pushing against him.
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And it was just like cumbersome. It was a thorn
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in God's side. It's like Zeus versus Hades. But
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the thing is, is we have thorns in our side.
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God does not. Right. Yes. Like he doesn't, there's
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not anything that, that God is like, Oh, all
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right. I got to gear up for this one. Oh boy.
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Yeah. That's not happening. Yeah. So it's not
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like it's, and then, But yeah, because my son
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looked at it. And if you look at the picture,
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the picture is like a snake. And he was like,
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oh, is like Satan disguised himself as a snake.
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And I went, well, and I literally said, I was
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like, well, he really would have looked more
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like a dragon. Yeah. And this is just easier
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for us to understand. Yeah. Is literally what
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I told him. I mean, that's an easy way to approach
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it. And then we can have more discussions as
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he gets older. Because I think the other interesting
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thing about that, and it goes into this idea
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of simultaneous falls. Yes. Where it's like,
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I think one of the issues that I see in how a
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lot of these stories are presented, especially
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to kids, is like, oh yeah, so Satan's allowed
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to go up into heaven. Because we see that in
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Job. when have you ever seen that anywhere in
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scripture? Right. Especially when it's like,
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we can't go up there because we're sinful. Yes.
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So I would quote unquote, the father of lies.
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Correct. Be allowed into the presence of Yahweh.
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Correct. It's like, and especially in his domain.
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And I think here it's like Eden, the garden of
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Eden is God's earthly domain. Yes. And so why
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would the serpent who were framing as evil from
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the beginning. Right. It's like, why would he
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be allowed in there? Correct. And it's like,
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Because he's allowed in there because he's supposed
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to be in there. Yes. Until he's no longer supposed
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to be in there. And that's the thing is the idea
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that he once was the most beautiful angel, but
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he didn't want to just be an angel. He wanted
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to be God. And then it says he was sinned. God
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had to send him out of heaven. Yeah. And then
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so he was a beautiful angel in heaven. And then
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he was sent out of heaven and disguised himself
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as a snake. Yeah. So you go, okay, but wait a
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minute. Eve never goes, what are you doing here?
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Right. Which see previous episodes. Yes. But
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it's also this piece where it's like it's ignoring
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the rest of the Bible. Yeah. Particularly like
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the Ezekiel passages where it's like. there are
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guardian cherub on the mountain of God. It's
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not even like, even if you take Ezekiel, is it
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28? Yes. If you take Ezekiel 28 and you go, well,
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that's describing that there are guardian cherubs
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on the mountain of God. That's not specifically
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Satan. Cool. But again, let's say there's a million
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of them, or let's say there's five or two or
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whatever it is. They're not going to catch this
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guy. Well, my point is there are cherub, that
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are guardian cherub that are on the mountain
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of God in the garden of Eden. Yes. So then the
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serpent is not a human looking angel with wings
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that disguised itself as a, you know what I mean?
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Yes. Yeah. And here's the thing. We've done multiple
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episodes on this whole idea. Yes. So I didn't
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want to bring that back in. I just, I read this
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and I thought, man, it's so conflicting to go.
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I want to tell my kids what the Bible actually
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says, but is it too complex for them to understand?
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And is that why we have these Bible stories?
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And also, why is that the narrative? Yeah. Why
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is the narrative something that's not actually
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in the Bible? In other words, you can go like,
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oh, it was this beautiful place and the birds
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were singing and you go like, all right, well,
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that's not in the Bible, but that's fine. Yeah.
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But you can't go, there was an angel that was
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cast out of heaven and he snuck into the garden
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and got into the body of a snake. What? Yeah,
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because none of that's in the Bible. Right. That's
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all made up. Yeah. Yeah. But why are we putting
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that? Why are we even doing that? Yes. We have
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to stop. Yeah. We have to stop making children's
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texts that describe something that never happened.
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And I think the other thing with that, and I'm
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saying this. Because it makes the Bible a fairy
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tale. Exactly. And that's a problem. Yeah. Because
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it's not a fairy tale. But what I just read was
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a fairy tale. Absolutely. That's folklore. And
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I'm not, like, that means that what I'm saying
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is what I just read is not the Bible. Yeah. And
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that's correct. It's not. It's not the Bible.
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Yeah. But yet this says. Inspired by a Bible
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story, kind of. Yeah, the storybook Bible. Yeah.
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This is not a Bible. And that's unfortunate.
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That is sad. Well, and I think what's interesting,
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so my mom is. Like, this is folklore based on
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the Bible. Right. Well, so my mom is head of
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the children's ministry at her church. Okay.
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And so she writes a lot of the curriculum and
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she does a lot of the teachings. Gotcha. And
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what's interesting is because she'll tell me
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what she's teaching the kids sometimes. Yeah.
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And a lot of it is what we're talking about.
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Yeah. Obviously, she approaches it in a way that's
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digestible for them. Sure. But she's like, yeah,
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these kids know a lot of... a lot of Bible. And
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then sometimes like we get more in depth than
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they do upstairs. And that's not saying anything
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bad on them, but it's like, Oh, these kids are
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actually learning the Bible. Yeah. And it's like,
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and my reason for saying that is like, there
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are a lot more capable of understanding things
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if you just tell them like, Hey, this is what
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it is. Yeah. Their imagination is crazy. Oh,
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absolutely. So I'm on a quest now to find an
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actual Bible. I love that. Yeah. And the thing
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that's tough is I've read this Bible several
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times in different ways and at different points
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over the last five to seven years. And now I'm
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like, I got to stop. You just can't do it. There's
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got to be a different one. And there are. There
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are different ones. But this is part of the problem
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when kids... become adults, and then they go,
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well, the Bible's all fairy tales. Well, if they
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read this, they did read a fairy tale. Yeah,
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you didn't read the Bible. Right. So, I mean,
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it's Bible adjacent, but that actually, Bible
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adjacent is literally deception. Yes. It's the
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truth twisted. Yeah, which is a lie. Yes. So,
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it's tough because you read that and you go,
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that's not what happened. Yeah. It's categorically
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a deception. Now, I'm not saying that these people
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are intentionally deceiving. No, because I think
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it's all well -meaning. Yes. And when you're
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in the Christian bookstore and you see, oh, the
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story Bible, you're like, perfect for kids. Over
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four million copies sold. Like, this has got
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to be good. It says Bible on it. Yeah. It's tough.
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And it's like, I'm not saying that way to make
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fun of anybody, but it's like. You're well -meaning
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and you're trying to do something great to instruct
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your kids. Yeah. But I would proofread it to
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see if it does actually tell the Bible story.
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So that would be the biggest problem is if people
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are more biblically illiterate now, but they're
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trying to make a good decision, but they're not
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actually reading their Bible and they're reading
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this to their kids, then this is also their Bible.
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Yeah. And that's a problem. That's a huge problem.
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So if you're an adult and you have kids and your
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main Bible reading is stuff like the children's
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Bibles? I mean, it's the same as Paradise Lost
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influencing modern theology. Yeah. We're letting
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art and fairy tale influence what we actually
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believe about God. Yeah, it's story over truth.
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Yeah. So pay attention to what you're reading.
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And if you're like, huh, that seems like weird
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or elementary, go back and read the actual text.
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Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it actually
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is more beneficial for a child to hear the Bible
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itself. Yes. And that may be what I end up doing.
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We'll see. But pay attention to what you're reading,
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kids. Three, two, one. Welcome to our show. It
15:11
might not make sense. Only heaven knows. Don't
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follow the stars. Or I don't know. This is Martyrs
15:26
Row. Welcome to the show Before the final plague,
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God revealed the purpose behind everything that
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had happened. In Exodus 12, verse 12, He declared,
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Later, Numbers 33, verse 4 repeats that the Lord
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executed judgment on their gods. The Bible never
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names which god corresponds to each plague, but
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Many biblical scholars and Egyptologists recognize
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that the plague systematically struck the very
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realms Egypt believed were governed by its gods.
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Whether every plague targeted one specific deity
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or an entire category of Egyptian worship, the
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message was unmistakable. Yahweh alone rules
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over creation, life, death, kings, and nations.
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So, Paul, the plagues, it's not just like Yahweh
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being mean. Right. And like playing jokes on
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people. Yeah. There was a deeper meaning that
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corresponded to what was going on and what God
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was doing through his people on the earth, right?
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Yes, absolutely. Which then really points ahead
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to Jesus, but also every prophet. It's like...
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Everything that Yahweh was doing on the earth
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through people and using people to do it was
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intentionally taking everything back for himself.
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Yes. Right? Yeah, absolutely. So with the plagues,
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is there like a frog God? Because if not, then
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what do we mean the... gods have been put down,
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but they were plagues. Is there a relationship
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between the plagues and the gods of Egypt? Simple
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answer is yes. Okay, see you next time. See you
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guys. Thank you. Which actually, it's funny because
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I remember learning this when I was younger.
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Okay. And it was kind of like this weird revelation
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of like, wait, really? They weren't just like
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plagues judging the people? Oh, right. But it's
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funny because then it's like if you just... at
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least I'm talking about myself, like if I just
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bothered to read, it's very explicit, like, no,
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this is judgment against the gods. Yeah. Well,
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I mean, it says it in Exodus 12. Yes. And it
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repeats it throughout other scriptures too, of
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like, no, this is what he was doing. Yeah. Which
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is fascinating. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.
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Because it means that there's more going on there,
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which is what we talk about all the time. Yes.
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It's like there's subtleties. That's kind of
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the tough thing is like sometimes you can be
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reading the Bible and you read like a whole chapter
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and it's really just simply saying something
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simple. It just is using more words to open up
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and to kind of paint the picture for you. But
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then there's like a verse that if you don't know
19:07
the context of the specific words used, you don't
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really see the full image of it. Like it can
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go by like that. It's, yeah. It's interesting.
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It's fascinating. So how many plagues were there?
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There were 10. Okay. So there's 10 plagues. And
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this is when Moses is saying, Pharaoh, let my
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people go. Correct. And he's like, okay. He goes,
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okay. And then he goes, JK. So like, got my fingers
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crossed. He says, what? What? I see like. I see
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him like, Moses comes in. Hey, Pharaoh, can you
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please let these people go? Pretty pleased with
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the cherry on top. Okay, Moses, you know what?
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We'll let the people go. We'll figure that out.
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We'll go ahead and let the people go. No worries.
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All right, go ahead and let them know. And Moses
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turns around and starts to walk out. And then
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Pharaoh just like, Tyke! I got you. You should
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have seen your face. Do you really think I'm
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going to let these people go? That's insane.
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Are you serious, Moses? You stuttering moron.
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We didn't have to go that far. You see this heart?
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It's hard. And he's like, no, no, no. I'm just
20:33
playing. Come back, come back. Okay, so we're
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going to let the people go. That's totally...
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I'm just kidding. I can't with this guy. The
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lady's like, yeah, these plagues are pretty rough.
20:44
Could you ask God to chill out a little bit?
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We'll let you guys go. Thanks for doing what
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I said. He looks over at the guard and he's like,
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can you move with this guy? This is crazy. He
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fell to the oldest trick in the book. Fool me
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once, shame on me. Okay, we're going too far
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with that. But okay, so as you said, the Bible
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doesn't explicitly tell us, you know, the frog
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god, blah, blah, blah. Oh, right. Like he doesn't
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name the gods. Correct. And in some ways, it
21:20
seems like that's also humiliating. I think so.
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They're not even worth their own name. Right.
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Yeah. Yes. Yeah, but then, like you said, we
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do see in Exodus 12, 12, 12, where he says all
21:32
the gods. Yes. And so what I want to do, and
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this is a list compiled by Egyptologists that
21:40
are kind of like comparing these things, like
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what is the plague, what does it affect, and
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who is the god who most likely associated with
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that in ancient Egypt. That's cool. Okay. Just
21:50
kind of fun. So what was the first plague? So
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the first one was water, the Nile turned into
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blood. Now, the order also matters. Yes. Right?
21:59
Because like... So the individual plagues are
22:03
specific, and then the order by which they're
22:06
laid out is also specific. Yeah, because it hits
22:09
these different levels of like... Earth, wind,
22:13
fire? Yeah, essentially, yeah. Like, oh, I'm
22:17
going to go after your economy. So it's like
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this slow dismantling of their entire ecosystem.
22:23
Yes, that's all built off of other... Of other
22:27
gods giving them knowledge so that they can be
22:32
prosperous. Yeah. And it's Yahweh demonstrating
22:35
his authority over all of those things. Yes.
22:38
And how these puny gods you worship, they actually
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can't exercise any authority over what I say
22:44
is going to happen. Right. So it's pretty fascinating.
22:47
One God to rule them all this summer. In a theater
22:53
near you, Yahweh. One God to rule them all. I
22:57
like it. I'd see it. I'd watch. Starring Mel
23:02
Gibson. It would too. He'd be the only actor
23:08
in it. And Tom Hanks as Pharaoh. Or it's like
23:14
Steve Carell. Actually, it'd be great if it was
23:17
like Christopher Walken. That's true. Or he's
23:21
Moses, maybe. I don't know. He would have to
23:25
be Moses. Christopher Walken as Moses? That's
23:29
insane. Or Dustin Hoffman as Rain Man as Moses.
23:38
Too far. Okay. That's too far. Okay. So plague
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number one. Oh, man. The Nile turned to blood.
23:44
Gross. The Nile River turned into blood. Yeah.
23:49
Kind of sick. Yeah. Not in a cool. Pretty cool.
23:52
Well, it's cool, but also like gross. Depends
23:55
on who you are. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, pretty
23:57
gross. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. You can't drink
23:59
that stuff. No, you can't. Well, you shouldn't.
24:04
I wouldn't recommend it. See our last episode.
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And so. Okay, so the water of the Nile is significant
24:16
for what reason? I mean, this is kind of a life
24:19
source for them in a lot of ways. Right. Yeah.
24:21
And the Nile once a year would flood, right?
24:25
Right. And when it flooded, it would enrich the
24:28
soil. Yeah. From where crops would come. Correct.
24:32
Yeah. Yeah. So the Nile was a source of life,
24:35
not just in the water, but it also enriched the
24:39
soil for food as well. Yeah. So it was both things.
24:41
It was a big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And
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so for it turning to blood, it's like, oh, you're
24:45
kind of cutting off our resources here. You killed
24:47
it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you killed the life
24:49
source. And so for this one, there's kind of
24:52
a couple of gods that are in like the challenge
24:55
category. Okay. And there are some overlap with
24:57
some of this. Okay. But the three that are named
25:00
here are, let's see if I can pronounce this.
25:03
I want to say happy. Yeah. H -A -P -I. I know.
25:06
I guess it'd be hoppy. Well, no, that would be
25:09
H -O -P -I. Hoppy. Huh? That'd be hoppy. Hoppy.
25:14
Yeah, I guess. I'm going with. I see what you're
25:16
saying. H -A -H. Yeah. Hoppy. H -A -H. Ha. So
25:21
Hoppy. Noom and Osiris. Okay. And so for this,
25:27
so for Hoppy, I'm just going to go with that.
25:30
Yeah, yeah. Personified the Nile in its annual
25:33
flooding, which you mentioned, Noom was believed
25:36
to control the Nile's source and fashion humanity.
25:39
Okay. And Osiris was sometimes associated with
25:41
the Nile's life -giving power. Okay. So Osiris
25:45
is big in like renewal and... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:49
Yeah. And so, as we said, so yeah, it's Egypt's
25:53
greatest source of life. It now becomes death.
25:56
Right. Proving that Yahweh rules the river that
25:59
Egypt worshipped. Yeah, that's interesting. It's
26:01
like, that's kind of a big deal. It is. All right,
26:04
so number two is what? So number two is frogs.
26:08
Frogs. Okay. Do they eat frogs? How are frogs
26:13
significant? Yeah, and so they were a symbol
26:16
of blessing. Okay. Because it correlates to the
26:20
god Heket. Okay. Which actually might be a goddess.
26:24
I don't actually know. I also feel like when
26:27
the Nile flooded. What is a goddess? It brought
26:30
frogs. That was a part of it. Okay. Yeah, and
26:33
so Heket was a frog -headed goddess of fertility,
26:38
childbirth, and new life. That sounds like an
26:40
insult. You're just a frog -headed goddess. Beautiful.
26:48
She's just a frog -headed goddess. She's gorgeous.
26:53
Oh, my sister? She's just a frog -headed goddess.
26:55
I wonder if that's where they got the princess
26:58
and the frog. Oh, interesting. I bet. That would
27:02
actually be fascinating. Yeah. I can't. My old
27:06
guy, Tiddalic. Can't forget the creation story
27:13
of Australia. No. Tiddalick the frog. He's massive.
27:17
If you're hearing this and you don't know what
27:20
I'm talking about, look it up. You got to go
27:21
back. Yeah. And it's spelled how do you think
27:23
it is. Tiddalick. Look it up. Yeah. Didn't they
27:27
tickle him? Is that what they did? They did.
27:29
Yeah. He swallowed all the water on the earth.
27:31
Yeah. They tickled him and his laughter made
27:34
him regurgitate all the water. And then that's
27:37
how the water and the land was separated. Yeah.
27:41
Which I mean, points for creativity. Yeah. It's
27:44
brilliant. What else do you do in Australia?
27:47
I want to hear more ideas from them. Okay, so
27:51
the frog -headed goddess was a sign of fertility.
27:56
Yes. Okay. So they would probably honor this
28:00
god when trying to have children. Be childbearing.
28:05
Yeah. And so there was some kind of there was
28:07
a level of honoring of frogs. OK. Because it
28:10
literally represented how they depicted her.
28:13
Gotcha. And so there are so many frogs. I've
28:16
heard someone say this. This is a bit of like
28:18
a read in a speculation. Yeah. The idea that
28:21
it's like there are so many frogs invading the
28:24
land now. OK. They can't help but step on them.
28:28
Oh. And so in a way it's like they're dishonoring
28:30
their own God by accidentally killing her. Yeah,
28:33
and that many frogs, overwhelming, they would
28:38
just die. Yeah, it would suffocate everything.
28:42
Yeah, so it was actually like what they were
28:47
praying to for fertility actually became dead
28:51
and everywhere, and they were killing the fertile
28:54
goddess. Yeah, absolutely. Which is kind of ironic.
29:00
It's almost like, oh, you like the frog goddess?
29:03
How much? How about a million frogs? No! Too
29:09
much of a good thing. And so this next one is
29:11
kind of interesting. Okay, number three. This
29:13
is plague three, which is gnats slash lice. Oh,
29:16
yeah. But I normally just heard gnats. Yeah.
29:18
Which is like, I mean, they are a pest. Well,
29:21
if you think about a lot of gnats. They would
29:26
like nestle in your head. Oh, yeah, it'd be terrible.
29:29
Yeah, so maybe they're just adjacent. I could
29:31
see that. And so this would be targeting their
29:34
god Jeb. Jeb. Old Jebby Jeb. And he was the god
29:42
of the earth and soil. The earth and soil. And
29:45
so dust itself. obeys Yahweh, as we see, by becoming
29:50
insects. Where he's just like pulling up the
29:53
earth and be like, yeah, gnats are going to come
29:55
from that now. Oh, that makes sense. Which is
29:59
like, that's pretty wild. Right. Yeah, it is.
30:02
Interesting. Okay. So Jeb, old Jeb. Yes. Good
30:06
old Jeb. Who's the most famous Jeb, do you think?
30:10
Can you think of one? One. No, not that one.
30:16
Like one we would know. The only other one I
30:17
can think of is from Green Acres. Interesting.
30:21
The TV show. You can't think of any like. Isn't
30:24
there another biblical Jeb though? There's a
30:27
biblical Job. No, I think like in the Old Testament.
30:30
Depends on how you pronounce the O. Genealogies.
30:32
Job. Yeah. No, like. public figure oh like jeb
30:39
bush yeah there you go how did i go to green
30:42
acres before that i don't know that's how politically
30:45
involved i am yeah and jeb bush would be like
30:48
from he's from texas right i think so actually
30:52
maybe they were arkansas i know the clintons
30:56
are arkansas so you're saying that the egyptian
30:58
god was a southerner well so what so what was
31:02
god of the earth and soil Oh, I see what you're
31:05
saying. Earth and soil. That's interesting. Yeah.
31:08
Feels right. Some farm, some good old fashioned
31:10
farm. Some cattle ranch. Okay, so that was four.
31:14
That was four. Right? No, that was three. Oh,
31:16
that was three. So four is flies. Okay, adjacent.
31:20
Very adjacent. To gnats and lice. And so this
31:23
would be the god Kepri. So Kepri is the lord
31:27
of the flies. Yeah. Also Beelzebub. Oh. Interestingly
31:31
enough. You're right. Wow, okay. And there's
31:34
a book. There is. Yes. Small children. And so
31:38
he was a scarab -headed god representing the
31:42
rising sun, creation, and renewal. Okay. Scarab's
31:48
not a word to come around. He's bringing the
31:50
new day, I guess. Yes. Okay, so then what do
31:55
insects have to do with that? Or flies? I think
32:00
that's... That's a tough one, right? That's a
32:04
tough one. So, I mean, what I see here, the explanation,
32:07
is that even the swarms of insects are under
32:11
Yahweh's command. And so since he is representing
32:16
the rising sun renewal creation, flies are part
32:19
of things decomposing. Right. Which would then
32:22
bring a newness of life. Oh, gotcha. So it's
32:25
like this renewal. Something has to die and then
32:27
it's born. Gotcha. Okay. And it's exercising
32:30
that authority over that where it's like you
32:33
can't even control the things that are helpful
32:35
for that. Yeah. And like you're the one that's
32:38
supposed to bring renewal and I'm bringing death
32:40
to you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm killing you basically.
32:43
Yeah. You're not renewing. Yeah. Okay. So flies,
32:48
Capri. And then number five. Number five. Death
32:52
of livestock. Death of livestock. Which this
32:54
would hit them economically especially. Right.
32:57
It's a little bit bigger and harder to deal with.
33:00
Yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. And so there
33:04
are three here that are associated, which is
33:06
Hathor, Apis, and Nevis. Okay. Nevis? Sure. Yeah.
33:14
So Hathor was a cow goddess. Okay. A cow goddess.
33:19
We have a frog -headed goddess and a cow goddess.
33:23
And she was the goddess of motherhood and protection.
33:26
Okay. There's a lot of overlap with these. That's
33:29
the interesting thing. Yeah, there are some overlap
33:31
with some of these. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's
33:33
Apis and Navis, where sacred bulls worshipped
33:38
as divine manifestations. Okay. And so it's like,
33:43
yeah, here they're actually personifying their
33:46
gods and goddesses as these creatures, and yet
33:50
they're all dead now. Right. Yeah, that's terrible.
33:54
Which also devastates, like I said, their economy.
33:57
Yeah. It's like, you know, they can't even do
33:58
trade or anything. Right. Yeah, and... Yeah.
34:07
Okay, so that's through five, death of livestock.
34:09
Yeah. So number six. Number six is boils. Boils.
34:13
Okay, so it starts with... It ramps up. It starts
34:17
with water and then goes to, what was the second
34:21
one? Frogs. Okay, so water to frogs. To gnats.
34:27
Well, frogs start out as tadpoles. Yeah. So they
34:30
come out of the water, right? Mm -hmm. And then
34:34
we get the gnats. Which come from the dust. Which
34:38
come from the dust. And then we get flies. Mm
34:42
-hmm. And then we get death of livestock. Yeah.
34:45
And then after death of livestock, it moves from
34:48
basically like... Water and dirt. Yeah. To insects,
34:53
to animals, to humans. Yeah. Okay. Which is,
34:58
I would even throw in, I guess for like the flies,
35:01
I would even throw in air. Oh, that makes sense.
35:04
Yeah. Yeah. So water, dust, and air. Yeah. And
35:09
then moving into the livestock. And then now
35:12
we're onto humans. Yeah. Where they're actually
35:14
afflicted with boils. Yeah. This also is the
35:19
same progression. As Job. That's true. I never
35:23
thought about that. I haven't either. That's
35:25
interesting. It is. That's very interesting.
35:27
So it seems to be that maybe when God is allowing
35:33
testing to happen from accusers, it starts this
35:40
way. It goes from the elements to the insects
35:42
to the... Individual. Yeah, so it takes a while
35:46
to get all the way to the individual. Which...
35:49
It's kind of, in one way, it's kind of cool because
35:51
it's like, I'm giving you a lot of chances to
35:53
repent. It is. Which is what he's doing with
35:56
Pharaoh. It's like, I'm giving you a lot of options
35:58
to change direction here. And out of 10, it takes
36:03
five before it ever gets to the human. Yes. So,
36:06
okay, so six is boils. Yeah, so boils, which
36:10
would be, the gods associated there would be
36:12
Sekhmet, Isis, and Himhotep. Okay. And so these
36:19
gods are deified humans associated with healing
36:23
medicine and protection from disease. Okay. So
36:27
these are hybrids. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And there's
36:32
a lot of like magic associated in this. It was
36:35
like, here's some healing. Here's, and yet here
36:38
are the people that are afflicted with this thing.
36:40
They can't be healed from. Yeah. And yeah. Okay.
36:44
Yeah. That's interesting. Just fascinating, yeah.
36:48
So they can't call on their, they haven't been
36:50
able to, or they won't be able to call on their
36:52
gods to heal them from this. Yes, yeah. Because
36:57
that's what their gods would do. Yeah, they're
36:59
supposed to be the ones protecting them from
37:01
this. Right. All right, so that's six boils,
37:04
now seven. And then this one gets wild. We have
37:06
hail and fire. Okay, so. Literally the depths
37:11
of the earth open up and begin to swallow you.
37:14
And drop from the ceiling. I guess it would be
37:17
the sky, not the ceiling. Or fire and ice. Yeah.
37:23
That's terrifying. The gods there are Newt, Shoo,
37:28
and Tefnut. Newt, Shoo, and Tefnut. What a pairing.
37:36
Or a coupling. A coupling. A pairing would be
37:40
two. A pairing would just be two. Yeah. And this
37:43
would be the gods governing the sky, air, and
37:47
weather. Wait, how is Newt spelled? N -U -T.
37:50
That's nut. I didn't want to say nut. I wanted
37:53
to sound fancy. He's a nut. I had to expose you.
38:01
I know. Well, I wasn't going to say shuh. Fair.
38:10
Fair. Okay. And I guess if you want to take it
38:13
that way, it'd be Nutshoe and Tefnut. At least
38:18
they're consistent. Yeah, that's true. So what
38:22
did they do? So they were the gods governing
38:25
the sky, air, and weather. Okay, interesting.
38:28
But as it affects humans, not necessarily the
38:32
animal life. Yeah. And so, because this is fire
38:35
and hail, which is devastating to humans. Yes.
38:38
And to our structures and things. Yes. And so
38:42
the gods that are supposed to be governing this
38:44
have no authority over it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:47
Yeah, it's destroying civilization. Yes. Right.
38:52
Yeah. Wow, okay. Which, yeah, gets wild. So then
38:56
number eight. And then we have locusts. Ooh.
39:00
I want some honey. John the Baptist is licking
39:06
his lips. He's like, ooh, give me the eighth
39:09
plague. Want to send some eighth plague my way?
39:15
He found a remnant in the wilderness. Like, oh
39:18
boy. He found a plague remnant in the wilderness.
39:23
The other day I came upon a plague remnant in
39:26
the wilderness. Have you seen that meme? Good
39:28
thing I have my honey with me. The guy in the
39:30
yellow jacket rubbing his hands together behind
39:31
a tree. No. It's so funny. That's all I'm thinking.
39:35
It was just John the Baptist. Moses is like,
39:38
I'm going to have locusts come down. He's like,
39:39
locusts. Let me get my honey. I think I'm all
39:45
stacked up. I wonder if Winnie the Pooh is based
39:48
on John the Baptist. You forgot the locust part,
39:53
but... That's awesome. Okay, so that's number
39:57
eight, right? That's eight. And this would be...
39:59
And these are the gods responsible for grain,
40:16
harvest, and food supply. Okay. Oh, man. Okay,
40:22
and then just powering through these last two.
40:24
Yeah. We have darkness, and this is associated
40:29
with Ra, Amun -Ra, and Horus. And so Ra was Egypt's
40:34
supreme solar deity. Okay. Horus was linked with
40:37
kingship and the sun, and Pharaoh was regarded
40:40
as Horus's earthly representative. Hmm. Or Ra's
40:45
son, I've also heard. Gotcha. And so he's like,
40:48
yeah, the light's gone. This god is supposed
40:50
to be your solar deity. Wow, yeah. And then this
40:54
is the one that I find really interesting. Okay.
40:56
Which for a while was like hard to wrap my head
40:58
like, all right, what's this about? Which is
41:00
the 10th plague. Okay. Because it's harsh. Yeah,
41:03
yeah. And that's the death of the firstborn.
41:05
Okay. And I feel like there's two levels to this.
41:09
Well, so I'll say this first. So this one is
41:13
kind of, where it would be the ones they associate
41:18
with that is Isis and Osiris, but also Pharaoh
41:22
himself. Got it. Because Pharaoh viewed, they
41:25
viewed him and he viewed himself as a deity.
41:27
Right. Because he was the earthly representative
41:29
of Horus or Ra. Right. Yeah, which they would
41:33
be in a lot of ways animating him. Yeah. Like
41:37
in the way that like a... a king of Israel would
41:42
consult Yahweh. Yeah. This would be the same
41:45
for a Pharaoh. Right. They would do it in the
41:47
same way. And it wasn't just like they were like
41:49
making schemes and like joking, like they were
41:53
actually consulting a God. Yes. The same way
41:55
that King David was consulting Yahweh. Right.
41:59
It's the same thing. Yeah. And we see that in
42:01
other parts of scripture that we've talked about.
42:03
Yes. See our published works. Yeah. See past
42:07
episodes. Our posted episodes. But death of the
42:10
firstborn, I think I'm thinking about this for
42:12
the first time in a slightly different way. Yeah,
42:14
because there's two directions that I take with
42:16
it, but I want to hear what you have to say first.
42:18
Well, it just made me think for the first time
42:19
of like, okay, so if the final, if the final,
42:22
I think I also always separate the Passover and
42:27
the death of the firstborn from the 10 plagues.
42:31
I think I think of them as two different things.
42:32
Yeah. Yeah. But it makes sense. It's the final
42:35
conclusion. Yeah. But in reality, what it seems
42:40
like Yahweh is doing is he's giving the Egyptians
42:47
the result or he's giving them back their worship
42:55
to lesser gods. Yeah. So it's almost like he's
42:58
not... he's not um demanding that they do it
43:02
yeah he himself is doing their sacrifices to
43:08
the other gods yeah but he's overdoing it right
43:13
like he's overwhelming it and going like you
43:17
do this to these other gods i'm showing you that
43:21
i can do it all i can do all of Yeah. All of
43:25
it from every God that you worship and how you
43:28
worship them. Yeah. And because this is how you
43:32
worship them, I'm going to take all of these
43:34
things from you. Yes. So your gifts to the gods,
43:38
I am removing your ability to give those gifts
43:42
to the gods. So taking away their blessing. And
43:46
it's interesting because in a way that we've
43:48
seen with these other plagues so far is like
43:49
it's become overwhelming to the point that it's
43:51
a curse. Right. And with that, it's like if you're
43:54
taking out their heirs, specifically Pharaoh's
43:58
heir. Right. It's like, well, now you're showing
44:01
that the divine king cannot protect his own heir.
44:05
And the gods of life, death, and kingship are
44:08
all failing. Yes, but. the highest sacrifice
44:13
to a God would be the firstborn child. Right.
44:16
That was my initial... That's kind of where I'm
44:19
going with that. It's using what they would do
44:22
as a sacrifice for what they would call a blessing.
44:25
Right. Like you said, it's overwhelming it to
44:28
the point where now it's a curse. Yes. These
44:31
are things that you valued the most and you would
44:34
give these as a gift to the gods for you to receive
44:37
something you want? Yes. So I'm going to take
44:41
those sacrifices. I'm going to basically demand
44:45
those sacrifices from you, but not just the person
44:49
who would, but all the people. Yeah. And I'm
44:52
going to overwhelm it in a way that's like, you
44:55
have dishonored me by doing these things. So
44:59
I'm going to give you exactly what you want.
45:01
Yeah. Which is interesting. So it's not like
45:05
he's just... pushing judgment on them and he's
45:11
creating it in real time. Yes. He's using the
45:14
way that they worship those gods back to them.
45:19
Yes. So he's giving their sacrifices to those
45:22
gods back. Right. Which is interesting. He's
45:25
rejecting them. Yeah, he's returning them. Yeah.
45:28
Oh, yes. Right. So he's not even rejecting their
45:32
offerings. He's returning their offerings back
45:34
to them. That's true. Yeah. Which is kind of
45:36
interesting. Yeah. No, it's true. It's like,
45:40
this is wild. Which means that when they experienced
45:44
that, the Egyptians experienced that, they weren't
45:47
like, why would this God do this to us? Yeah.
45:50
They would go, oh, this, I mean, this all makes
45:54
sense. Like this is what we do in worship. Yes.
45:57
And we're being overwhelmed by the same. And
46:00
it's in contrast with their own beliefs and cultures
46:03
and their authority structures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
46:07
it's also invading the territory of those spiritual
46:10
entities. Yes. In a way that is humiliating to
46:14
them. And it's humiliating. It is. Yeah. For
46:19
sure. Yeah, because it exposes all of them to
46:21
be not that strong. Yes. Yeah. But part of that
46:26
was, part of what was happening at the beginning,
46:29
though, is that there were Pharaoh's sorcerers
46:32
who were responding to Moses. Yeah. want to go
46:37
into i think it's an interesting piece because
46:39
until recently i haven't ever really heard many
46:43
people point it out okay and i feel like when
46:46
we read through it well i might be jumping ahead
46:49
of you i don't know where you're going no no
46:50
as far as like just talking about like oh yeah
46:52
they were sorcerers there yeah and they had a
46:55
level of power too yeah they were high priests
46:58
of the gods yeah and i think it's it's one of
47:01
those we For a long time, we've just kind of
47:03
skipped over. We're like, weird. Let's keep going.
47:06
But then when we read it, it's like, oh, the
47:09
first two plagues, they were able to mimic. Yes.
47:13
And on top of that, even before the plagues,
47:15
when Moses' staff turns into a serpent. Yeah,
47:18
they were able to do that. They also did that.
47:20
The only difference is Moses' staff, or his serpent,
47:23
his staff serpent, devoured both of theirs. He
47:27
has a serpent on staff. Yeah. yes and it's like
47:35
oh that's interesting yeah yeah um but then what
47:38
i find interesting about that is um so yeah they
47:43
have this ability to to mimic um but then there's
47:48
a point which is the third plague where they're
47:52
unable to mimic the plague yeah exactly um And
47:57
so what's interesting is, so Jeb, as we talked
47:59
about, he was their god of earth and soil, but
48:03
the magicians admit that this is the finger of
48:06
God. Right. And because God brings forth life
48:10
from the dust and earth, nothing else has the
48:13
power to do that. Right. And that's what we see
48:15
with creation, especially with man. It's like
48:17
he brought forth life from dust. Yes. Which is
48:20
what he does there at the gnats, and it's like,
48:21
oh yeah, no one else can do that. Yeah, and not
48:24
only that, in the first plague, turning the water
48:27
of the Nile into blood, the sorcerers could turn
48:30
some of the water into blood, but they could
48:32
not reverse what Yahweh does through Moses. Yeah.
48:38
So they couldn't turn the Nile back into water.
48:41
And it's funny because even with the second one
48:44
with the frogs, they were able to mimic that
48:46
by creating... or bringing forth more, not creating,
48:49
bringing forth more frogs. Yes. And what they
48:52
did is made the whole situation much worse. Yeah,
48:54
what they couldn't do was get them removed. Yeah.
48:57
And what they have to do, Pharaoh goes to Moses
48:59
and says, can you please ask God to take all
49:03
this away and then we'll sacrifice to him and
49:05
do what you want? Yeah. And then, yeah, Moses
49:08
does that and God's like, okay, cool, just so
49:10
you know. He's not going to do it. Right. And
49:12
so he removes the frogs and the Pharaoh's like,
49:15
psych. Yeah. Psych. Fingers crossed. Got you.
49:19
Had my toes crossed. Couldn't see him. And so
49:23
what's interesting to me is because then we see
49:25
in the third where they admit like, okay, this
49:29
is the finger of God. Yeah. And then in the fourth
49:33
plague, we have the flies and it's Yahweh demonstrating
49:36
his power over creation and the magicians are
49:39
nowhere to be seen. Yeah, that's true. And then
49:42
as well in the fifth plague, which is death of
49:47
livestock, I don't think they were going to attempt
49:49
to try to mimic this one. Yeah, yeah. Because
49:52
that would seriously make it much worse. It would.
49:55
And they already know they can't reverse any
49:56
of them. Well, and I can imagine that by that
49:59
point, one of the plagues have taken them out.
50:03
Well, so they appear back again. That's true.
50:06
Yeah. Which this one kind of does. Yeah, that's
50:10
true. And that's the sixth plague. I wonder if
50:12
they just slowly backed out of the room. If we
50:19
hold still, he can't see us. It's also not like
50:25
they're sitting around a table. and they're going
50:28
through all 10 plagues all at the same time.
50:30
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and so what I find about
50:35
the sixth one interesting as well, because it's
50:40
a judgment against Isis, who is their goddess
50:42
of magic and healing. Right. And so Exodus says
50:46
that the magicians could not stand before Moses
50:49
because of the boils, for the boils were on the
50:52
magicians and all the Egyptians. And so their
50:57
healing techniques, because it says like, oh
50:59
yeah, and they mimicked the plague using their
51:01
secret techniques. Right. I can't remember exactly
51:05
how it says, but in that way. And so their techniques
51:08
did not work in part of this because their goddess
51:11
had just been judged. Right. So their access
51:14
was cut off and she was shown to be powerless
51:16
before Yahweh. Well, and that's the thing that
51:18
they don't realize. Yeah. Is that like on the
51:21
back end, he's like, all right. You can try to
51:24
match me, but like, hey, Osiris, be quiet. Right.
51:29
And Osiris is like, sorry, guys, can't help you.
51:32
You're on your own, boys. Meanwhile, they're
51:36
covered in boils. You shouldn't have brought
51:37
him here. Bad day to be Egyptian, am I right?
51:42
Sorry I didn't tell you that, but you shouldn't
51:44
have brought this guy here. Case of the Mondays.
51:49
It's like Osiris is the one stepping backwards
51:51
out of the room. And so I think the interesting
51:58
thing for me that I wonder with this is like,
52:01
okay, so what happened to the gods? Yeah. Good
52:04
question. Yeah. Cause it's like, I mean, we,
52:09
you, you read these earlier too. And just to
52:10
reiterate, it's like we have Exodus 12, 12. It
52:13
says against. all the gods of Egypt, I will execute
52:16
judgment. Yes. And then Numbers, the Lord had
52:19
also executed judgments against their gods. And
52:23
then we see, actually, this is an interesting
52:25
one too. After crossing the Red Sea in Exodus,
52:29
it reminded me of something interesting, which
52:31
is a fun little side tangent if we want. Yeah.
52:34
Where he says, who is like you among the gods,
52:38
O Lord? And so it's kind of just placing this.
52:41
And we see even Jethro in Exodus says, now I
52:43
know that the Lord is greater than all gods.
52:46
And then we see this kind of telling throughout
52:48
the Psalms. And then even in Jeremiah, where
52:52
the prophet announces future judgment of Egypt.
52:55
Okay. In Jeremiah 46, it says, the Lord will
52:59
punish Amon of Thebes, Pharaoh, Egypt, her gods
53:02
and her kings. And it's like, oh, that's interesting.
53:06
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so it's this idea of like
53:10
God has demonstrated that he is more powerful
53:13
than all of these other gods. Yes. And it says
53:17
explicitly that he cast judgment on them. Yeah.
53:20
So it's like, okay, there's been judgment. So
53:22
does that just mean humiliation or does that
53:25
mean something else? Right. And so that's where
53:27
I kind of want to explore that a little bit.
53:29
Yeah, go for it. But the one thing I will say,
53:32
because we kind of mentioned this a little bit.
53:35
But one thing that I find very interesting that
53:38
I noticed with this is it's kind of this reversal
53:41
of order. Okay. Back into chaos and then into
53:44
order again. Oh, yeah. The story of Exodus. Yeah.
53:46
Kind of following that same meta narrative that
53:48
we see throughout a lot of scripture. Yeah. Where
53:51
Egypt worshiped creation instead of the creator,
53:54
and they experienced creation itself turning
53:56
against them. Yeah. And so it's almost like an
54:00
uncreation narrative. Yeah. until Israel is brought
54:04
through the sea into a new beginning. And so
54:07
it's almost like a weird, like, flood -type story
54:10
where they are then brought through the water
54:13
into something new. Yes. Yeah, or a portal or
54:18
gates. Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting because
54:22
it is one of those things where it's like, it
54:25
kind of feels like very Sodom and Gomorrah -esque.
54:28
Yeah. Where it's, but... but we get all of the
54:31
individual details of the process of it happening
54:35
and all these opportunities for Egypt to receive
54:39
grace. Yes. But they continue to not do it. Right.
54:44
And that is interesting, like as a worship of
54:46
creation, that as a residual of Genesis 3 in
54:50
the garden, that you have this civilization that
54:54
has built this great civilization as far as the
54:57
world is concerned. Yeah. But the way that they're
55:01
doing it is through gaining knowledge to build
55:04
things without consulting Yahweh, but instead
55:08
consulting other gods or other Elohim in order
55:13
to receive knowledge for them to prosper on the
55:16
earth. Yeah. And so in the same way, the Tower
55:20
of Babel, there's confusion brought. Right. And
55:23
destruction. The God rescues his people again
55:27
out from the waters. Yes. Which is parting it
55:33
once again that they may be on dry land. Yeah.
55:36
Which they then go into a desert. That's true.
55:39
Very dry land. So they literally come out of
55:41
the water onto dry land. Yeah. Which is the flood,
55:45
which is Genesis 1, which... Is everything and
55:50
is modern. Yeah. It's weird to call it modern,
55:53
but New Testament baptism. Yes. Yeah. Coming
55:57
out of the water. Yes. Yeah. Because I think
56:01
it's cool because it just follows this idea that
56:03
we repeatedly, this meta -narrative that we see
56:05
of from chaos to order. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's
56:09
cool. Which is cool. That was a little side tangent.
56:11
It makes sense though. It's a good way to tie
56:13
all that together. Yeah. Because I've never thought
56:16
about it that way when I've looked at the plagues
56:18
in the Exodus story, but it's like, oh, that
56:19
kind of makes sense though. It does. Yeah. Yeah,
56:22
it also is like a slow unraveling instead of
56:25
an all at once destruction. Right. So it's almost
56:29
like you can see the grace of God go, you have
56:32
a lot of opportunities to turn away. Yeah. But
56:35
you continue not to. And that's something we
56:38
see even with like the Noah's flood. It's like,
56:42
oh, they had a lot of time to repent. Yeah. And
56:45
they chose not to. But it was. The difference
56:48
with the Exodus is we actually see like this
56:51
is what's happening specifically. Yeah. What
56:53
does it say? Like it's like unrighteousness all
56:56
the time. Yeah. What am I thinking of? Do you
56:59
know what I'm saying? I know what you're saying,
57:01
but I. It's the debauchery all the time or something
57:05
like that. But it's in the days of Noah where
57:08
they were doing evil continually. One of these
57:13
phrases. It's one of those. And it might be both
57:17
in different parts of Scripture. And it's this
57:18
continuous thing. And that's where Jesus even
57:21
points to the second coming as it will be like
57:24
the days of Noah where the whole earth will just
57:28
be actively living in its sin and cycles of sin.
57:32
Yeah. And they will be doing evil continually.
57:36
I think that's what I was looking for. I think
57:37
that's what I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. So
57:41
that's interesting because it's like... You know,
57:43
you have society's turn and all of that stuff.
57:45
But then if all of the earth is doing evil continually,
57:50
then that's when we will be back in the days
57:52
of Noah. Which is crazy. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Which
57:56
how many days of Noah has there been? It's been
57:59
a couple cycles. Right. Yeah. And so I guess
58:04
jumping into this to kind of close it quickly,
58:07
not close it quickly, but to jump into this quickly.
58:09
Okay. Is like, all right, what happened to the
58:13
gods after they were judged? Yes. And so this
58:16
isn't written scripture. Okay. As far as like,
58:19
this is what happened to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:21
And so I was kind of exploring this more for
58:23
fun than anything. Okay. But to build kind of
58:26
this, like, is there a through line in here that,
58:29
or like some kind of philosophical... not feel
58:33
theological, philosophical approach to think
58:36
about this. Sure. And how we think about just
58:38
how these worlds work. Looking at larger themes
58:41
in the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's like, well,
58:44
I think we have to remember that the spirit realm
58:47
isn't static. Right. It's not like, Oh, this
58:51
is set in stone and these guys are bad. They
58:53
do this thing. And then this guys are good and
58:55
they do this thing. It's like, no, there's a
58:56
lot of, there's a lot of craziness going on.
58:59
Yeah. Um, And so with this is that my main approach
59:05
to this is I believe that we see throughout scripture
59:08
that humans and spiritual beings are often judged
59:11
differently. Okay. Yeah. And what I mean by that,
59:14
some examples is Adam and Eve are expelled from
59:18
the garden. Sure. But they continue living. Sure.
59:21
We have Cain who is cursed but is protected.
59:26
We have Pharaoh is repeatedly given opportunities
59:29
to relent, but he does not. And Israel is judged
59:34
repeatedly, but called to repentance. David is
59:37
judged, but he's forgiven. And Nineveh is warned
59:39
before judgment falls. So it seems like with
59:42
humans, there's always this opportunity to repent.
59:48
Yes. And it's like, yeah, he's not like often.
59:52
This doesn't always happen because we have some.
59:55
Small examples, but usually it's, hey, you did
59:58
this thing. Maybe there's a consequence for it,
1:00:01
but it's like you still have a chance to make
1:00:03
this right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And all the way
1:00:07
through. And even in moments where it feels like
1:00:10
it's immediate devastation or judgment. Yeah.
1:00:13
We don't know, but it's probably true that those
1:00:16
individuals had opportunities. Yeah, I think
1:00:19
so. and at least enough knowledge going into
1:00:22
what they were doing, they knew what could happen.
1:00:25
Right. Yeah. And I think that's true across the
1:00:29
board. For sure. Yeah. And then for spiritual
1:00:33
beings, I think it's noticeably different. When
1:00:35
God judges divine beings, the emphasis is usually
1:00:39
on removal of status or authority and not covenant
1:00:43
restoration. Sure. And so some examples of that.
1:00:47
And we've talked about this on an older episode,
1:00:49
which is the serpent in the garden. Yes. Where
1:00:52
if you really want us to like hear more about
1:00:55
that, you got to go watch that one. Yeah, that's
1:00:57
true. But it's like, okay, he was from the idiom
1:01:01
that I believe is used there in Hebrew. It's
1:01:03
like he was cast to the underworld. Okay. And
1:01:07
then we have Psalm 82 where we see. the angels
1:01:15
do not receive the opportunity for repentance
1:01:18
or restoration. Yeah. And then later in 2 Peter
1:01:22
2, 4, it says, for if God did not spare angels
1:01:25
when they sinned, but cast them into hell and
1:01:29
committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to
1:01:31
be kept unto the judgment. And that's referring
1:01:34
to Genesis 6. Right. And then we see that strengthened
1:01:38
in Jude, Jude 6, that says, And the angels who
1:01:40
did not stay within their own position of authority,
1:01:44
he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness
1:01:47
until the judgment of the great day. Yeah. And
1:01:51
then the other one that kind of ties both of
1:01:53
these in together, both these concepts, I think
1:01:55
is in Hebrews 2, 16, that says, For surely it
1:02:00
is not a... Sorry. For surely it is not angels
1:02:04
that he helps, but he helps the offspring of
1:02:06
Abraham. And it's like, oh, that's, I feel like
1:02:10
that's pretty clear right there to me. But so.
1:02:16
So what's the difference? Yeah. And that's kind
1:02:19
of the question. So it seems like when it comes
1:02:22
to the spiritual beings that disobey. Yeah. It
1:02:27
seems like there is an immediate consequence
1:02:29
to them. He doesn't, it seems like through these
1:02:32
examples, he's not like, yeah, you're humiliated,
1:02:36
but now like, keep going, do it right this time.
1:02:39
Sure. It's like, no, you're done. You're out
1:02:42
of here. Yes. Even though it also adds in, he
1:02:45
locks them up, but they're going to come back
1:02:47
at some point. Right. For the day of judgment.
1:02:49
Yes. Whereas humans, it's like, hey, you did
1:02:52
something bad. Now you've got to repent and do
1:02:54
it right. Yes. Yeah. So what do you think that
1:02:57
is? And so for me, taking that logic and applying
1:03:02
it to this, of course this is my personal view,
1:03:04
based on that, is I think that when God is executing
1:03:09
judgment against the Egyptian gods, he's actually
1:03:12
locking them up in the underworld. Interesting.
1:03:16
Yeah. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. But
1:03:23
Exodus comes before Deuteronomy. Correct. Genesis,
1:03:28
Exodus, Luke. So then the separation of the nations,
1:03:34
how does that play in? Well, timeline -wise,
1:03:38
I don't think it's... That would be the question.
1:03:42
Yeah, I don't think it's in... Right? Is that
1:03:45
referring back to pre? What do you say that again?
1:03:49
So like the, like we talk about Deuteronomy chapter
1:03:52
32. Yes. And the dividing of the nations. Correct.
1:03:56
And talk about things like Pharaoh having, was
1:04:01
it, is it Osiris as basically like his boss,
1:04:06
spiritual boss. Yeah. So that would be the ruler
1:04:09
of the air in that region. Yeah. Right. So in
1:04:12
that sense, does Deuteronomy 32 reference something
1:04:16
that would have been pre -exodus 13 and then
1:04:21
i guess in that case i would say if i understand
1:04:24
your question right i would say yes okay like
1:04:26
the dividing of the dividing of the nations happened
1:04:28
before the exodus event correct that's what i'm
1:04:31
saying yeah okay i understand now yeah yeah And
1:04:35
so what's interesting with that too is like if
1:04:37
we take that literally. Which I hadn't thought
1:04:39
about that in the sense. I knew it wasn't necessarily
1:04:42
chronological, but I hadn't thought about this.
1:04:45
I hadn't thought about the sense that a judgment
1:04:51
is happening in a passage in a text before chronologically
1:04:57
in canonical order. Yeah. The dividing of the
1:05:02
nations would. bring us to the attention that
1:05:05
there are other gods in different regions yeah
1:05:08
that were set up so it's informing which the
1:05:11
bible does this constantly where it's it's informing
1:05:14
us of what has just happened before yeah so it's
1:05:18
like oh remember back then well that's because
1:05:21
these like the dividing of the nations is why
1:05:25
there were different gods in different regions
1:05:28
around you know what i mean yeah and i think
1:05:30
what's interesting with that And this is controversial
1:05:33
for some people. I didn't finish any of the sentences,
1:05:36
so I hope that that was followable. I think I
1:05:38
followed you, so hopefully you did. Yeah, I did.
1:05:41
Well, I think with that, and this is going to
1:05:44
be maybe ruffle some feathers, which I love doing.
1:05:46
Okay. But it's one of those where we have the
1:05:50
fall in Genesis 6. Yes. Genesis 3. Oh, sorry.
1:05:55
Yeah, I mean, there's another fall in Genesis
1:05:57
6. That's kind of where I'm going. It's like,
1:05:59
oh yeah, we see there's a fall, the fall of man,
1:06:01
and we're like, that's it. That's where everything
1:06:03
kind of happened. And it's like, wait, but we
1:06:06
have another one in Genesis 6. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:06:08
And then we have another one that is talked about
1:06:10
in Deuteronomy 32. Sure. Well, not really there,
1:06:13
but we see it here, evidence of it. Right. And
1:06:15
we see evidence inside of the Psalms as well
1:06:17
where it's like, wait, so there wasn't one fall
1:06:20
within the spirit world. Well, but Deuteronomy
1:06:23
32 is not necessarily a bunch of fallen beings
1:06:30
being given authority. That's what I'm getting
1:06:33
at. Okay. It's because like here we clearly see
1:06:35
these are fallen beings. Because they're accepting
1:06:39
worship for themselves and instructing people
1:06:42
to lead them that way. But that would have been
1:06:43
after being named to the region. Yes. I see what
1:06:46
you're saying. So Deuteronomy, it's like what
1:06:48
God is setting up is I'm going to put watchers
1:06:51
or helpers here to help you do this right. Yes.
1:06:55
And the helpers are like, yeah, but what if I
1:06:58
got some of that for myself? So that's where
1:07:00
you would get things like they turned the nations
1:07:02
away from God. Yes. That's interesting. Yeah.
1:07:07
Like the turning of the nations away from God,
1:07:10
referring to Deuteronomy 32. Yes. And how the
1:07:14
nations were divided out by other spiritual or
1:07:17
watchers or spiritual beings. Yeah. That were
1:07:20
intended to rule those regions under the law
1:07:24
of Yahweh. Right. But instead turned and sinned
1:07:28
against Yahweh. Which is crazy. Resulting in
1:07:31
things like this, which means that the judgment
1:07:33
in... in Egypt at the time is equally, if not
1:07:42
more, upon the gods of the region. Yes. Because
1:07:47
they were instructed and given authority to help
1:07:49
the people underneath them. Which means that
1:07:52
the people, that's probably why Yahweh is over
1:07:59
and over again like, hey, I'm judging these gods
1:08:03
right now. Yes. you should separate yourself
1:08:07
from them. Yeah. And if we don't pay attention,
1:08:11
we wouldn't realize that the people that left
1:08:15
Egypt and escaped, they're not all Israelites.
1:08:19
Right. They are mixed in other nations within
1:08:23
the Israelites that escaped. It's true. So there
1:08:27
are some that did follow Yahweh after having
1:08:32
seen his power at work. And the diminishing of
1:08:36
those beings in that region. And I think that's
1:08:39
where, I guess to use the very Christian term,
1:08:42
binding. Sure. I think that's where I also lead
1:08:45
into, like, they were judged and sent away. Yeah.
1:08:48
Because they were now, they were loosened from
1:08:52
the authority of those gods. So then... Because
1:08:56
I think that's something that we see even in
1:08:58
the ministry of Jesus. And then... going on from
1:09:01
there to the apostles and the saints where it's
1:09:05
like, yeah, go out into the nations and loosen
1:09:08
this authority because I've given you that authority.
1:09:10
Yeah. That's like Jesus's main ministry was let
1:09:14
me loosen the grip. of these spiritual authorities
1:09:16
on the earth. So I can't point to a biblical
1:09:20
reference to this. I guess rescind their authority
1:09:23
would be a better way to say that. Sure. Yeah.
1:09:25
There wouldn't be a scriptural reference I could
1:09:28
pull out for this, but I hadn't thought about
1:09:30
this or considered this. But when we talk about
1:09:33
the idea that there were the same sin of Genesis
1:09:39
6 reoccurring, or potentially happening through
1:09:43
the generations and just continuing to happen.
1:09:48
It could be that when God goes in to judge...
1:09:53
the beings or the rulers of those regions in
1:09:57
that area, he's then condemning them, removing
1:10:00
them, and then placing new ones in place. Oh,
1:10:03
that's fascinating. Which I hadn't really thought
1:10:05
about before. I've never thought about that before.
1:10:07
Because it could be a continual instance of potential
1:10:09
fall. Which very well could be. Which would make
1:10:12
sense of even the fact that, like, God's turnover.
1:10:16
Like different languages and things, but it may
1:10:19
actually be like this one was judged and put
1:10:22
away and another one was put in its place and
1:10:25
that one did the same thing. Which actually brings
1:10:27
up another interesting idea, which we definitely
1:10:30
don't have time to go into today, which is the
1:10:32
idea of like a guardian angel. if you will, using
1:10:35
that phrase. It's like, oh wait, so it's like,
1:10:38
that's a whole, I'm not even gonna open that.
1:10:41
But it is like, it kind of, I feel like in some
1:10:43
ways leads to that, where it's like, there's
1:10:46
someone who's been, some being that's been placed
1:10:50
to help you. Yes. Whether you believe in that
1:10:53
or not. Don't know, but I'm saying it's like,
1:10:55
I feel like that idea could lend into that other
1:10:57
one. Well, I mean, and this would be an easy
1:11:00
way to kind of wrap that up, but the Pauline
1:11:03
idea of, hey, women, when you're in the assembly
1:11:08
and you're in the church setting, cover your
1:11:11
heads so that the angels looking upon you will
1:11:16
not lust over you. Yeah. And it's like, Paul's
1:11:20
saying that in the New Testament? Yeah. I mean,
1:11:23
that's Genesis 6. Yes. So is that continually
1:11:28
happening? I mean, I think that's the reference
1:11:30
of that. Yeah, I think that's very much a possibility.
1:11:35
So is Yahweh up there like, gosh, not another
1:11:38
one. Let me throw this one. Do you know what
1:11:39
I mean? Can you guys just cover your head, please?
1:11:43
Please, for my sake. I made your hair too beautiful.
1:11:46
No. So the other thing that... I want to point
1:11:49
out quickly in this, which I think is attached
1:11:52
to what you're saying here, is within the plagues,
1:11:56
the associated gods that we've kind of put in
1:11:59
there, Egyptologists put in there, it's like
1:12:02
14 different gods. Right. But then we see in
1:12:05
Deuteronomy 32, it's like he has separated the
1:12:08
nations due to the number of sons of God. Correct.
1:12:10
And it's like, wait, so that means there's not
1:12:12
just one for one nation. Well, it could lean
1:12:16
in that idea. But the number was 70. Does it
1:12:19
actually give a number in Deuteronomy? I'm pretty
1:12:20
sure it's 70. That I don't know. Okay. Yeah.
1:12:25
But we could, well, then it's like, okay, well,
1:12:27
we're the nations. That's the other side. Well,
1:12:28
but if it's 70, then it's a perfect number. That's
1:12:31
true. So it's the right amount. It's not necessarily
1:12:34
an actual number. That's fair. You know what
1:12:37
I mean? And so with that, it's like the right
1:12:39
amount. So it doesn't necessarily lean into,
1:12:42
there was just one over an area. Right. And I
1:12:46
mean, using this example, it's like, okay, because
1:12:48
what I find interesting is there are overlaps
1:12:51
between the gods in this region versus the gods
1:12:55
they worshiped in this region and this region.
1:12:57
There are differences, but there often are some
1:12:59
overlaps. And it's like, well, if there's like
1:13:02
3 ,000 of these things, it's like, well, yeah,
1:13:06
I guess you could see that. Yeah, that's fair.
1:13:09
Yeah, so I mean, to kind of bring it all, like
1:13:12
that's like the, So the Exodus story is really
1:13:21
a lot about God's judgment on spiritual beings.
1:13:24
Yes. And offering grace to humans to get out
1:13:28
of the way of the sin of the spirit beings. Yeah.
1:13:31
Which is interesting. Yeah. And then it makes
1:13:35
me like, so then you go, the question that we
1:13:37
really asked was like towards the end here was,
1:13:41
it seems like. these eternal beings do not have
1:13:48
a second chance. Correct. But yet humanity does.
1:13:51
Yeah. And what I was kind of getting at was,
1:13:55
well, it seems like that's what we see here with
1:13:58
the plagues, is that there's humans in the crosshairs,
1:14:02
in the crossfire of these gods being judged,
1:14:07
these sons of God being judged for misleading,
1:14:15
humanity towards worship of them instead of worship
1:14:18
of Yahweh, which was their job. Yes. Their job
1:14:21
was to take care and make sure people would worship
1:14:24
Yahweh. Yes, that's it. That's essentially the
1:14:27
idea that they would know who their creator was.
1:14:30
Yeah. And that their job was to point them back
1:14:33
towards Yahweh, which in that way would mean
1:14:35
that all of the sons of God were worship leaders.
1:14:38
Yeah. In a way. But. To lead and point people
1:14:41
to worship Yahweh. I do want to do an episode
1:14:43
on that. Like, why do we say that Satan was a
1:14:46
worship leader? I'd love to dive into that. Because
1:14:48
it's not in the Bible? Anyways. Teaser. So, but,
1:14:54
so to say all of that, the difference is, like
1:15:00
the difference between the two. Yeah. So the
1:15:03
sons of God or the spiritual beings, these eternal
1:15:06
beings versus humanity is the tree of life. Yeah.
1:15:11
The difference is we don't have access to the
1:15:15
tree of life. Yeah. Because we don't have access
1:15:18
to the tree of life, that offers us the grace
1:15:21
of God. Right. And that's actually what God says.
1:15:24
Yes. Let's put them out of the garden so that
1:15:27
they cannot get the tree of life and live forever.
1:15:30
Yes. Because if they got to the tree of life,
1:15:32
they would live forever and I could not save
1:15:34
them. There'd be no opportunity for redemption.
1:15:36
Because I'm looking around and the beings that
1:15:39
have access to the tree of life, I can't save
1:15:44
them. Right. Which means it would be in the heart
1:15:47
of God to want to, desire to, even save the serpent
1:15:53
in the garden. Yeah. But cannot. Yes. Because
1:15:57
of access to the tree of life. Yeah. So it's
1:16:01
not that like the tree of life is a god, although
1:16:03
like tons of civilizations would worship the
1:16:10
tree of life. Yes. Quite literally. Yeah. But
1:16:14
we see that everywhere. Everywhere. In fact,
1:16:18
as a portal or a gateway is the tree. So that's
1:16:22
the interesting piece is like in this, it's like,
1:16:26
what's the difference? It's like we have mortal
1:16:28
bodies. because we don't have access to the tree
1:16:31
of life, because God spared us by pushing us
1:16:34
out of the garden. Yes. And when he did that,
1:16:37
it allowed us to be able to make all the mistakes
1:16:41
that these eternal beings would make, but not
1:16:45
receive eternal damnation. Yes. Which is wild.
1:16:49
It's crazy. Yeah. Because it's not often framed
1:16:52
that way when that's the story the Bible is teaching.
1:16:55
Yeah, I mean, that is the Exodus story. That's
1:16:58
it. Like, we focus a lot on Moses. Right. We
1:17:01
focus a lot on those things, and the sorcerers,
1:17:04
we treat them like dummies. Right. They're like,
1:17:07
oh, these guys, I mean, what are they even -
1:17:09
They're silly with their magic tricks. Yeah.
1:17:11
And you're like, well, they weren't pulling a
1:17:13
rabbit out of a hat. They're not doing slight
1:17:16
of - They were pulling frogs out of a hat. But
1:17:17
they're not doing slight of hand is my point.
1:17:19
Yeah, that's fair. They're actually producing
1:17:21
real things because the gods that are with them
1:17:26
are actually pushing that out for them. Yeah.
1:17:30
Which means in some ways those lesser gods -
1:17:34
were actually trying to fight against Yahweh.
1:17:37
Absolutely. And they lost by round two of ten.
1:17:42
Yeah, that's right. So if you're ever afraid
1:17:46
of other beings... Imagine going ten rounds when
1:17:50
you've already lost in two. Yeah, it's round
1:17:53
two knockout. And you're still going to go through
1:17:56
the rest? Yeah, exactly. So the plagues are more
1:18:00
complex than you imagined. Yes. Go check it out.
1:18:04
It's in the Bible. Three, two, one. Thus, this
1:18:22
youthful martyr. That was so quick. I know. I
1:18:27
was like, darn. It was so close. Then I went
1:18:32
Mike Tyson on it. Saint Vedith. Just do a Mike
1:18:37
Tyson voice now. Saint Vedith. A euthyphil. That
1:18:48
way you can just keep rolling. Actually, that'd
1:18:51
be perfect. I'm just going to throw a lisp in
1:18:53
there. Saint Vedith. I knew you weren't ready
1:19:08
for it. Yeah, I'm going to try it. Might as well.
1:19:19
Saint Vetus. I can't do it. I won't be able to
1:19:25
hold it together. The only way you could do it
1:19:28
is if you do it while smiling. You have to let
1:19:31
yourself smile. Saint Vedith, a youth of Thitholi,
1:19:40
was from... It's the Thitholi part. There are
1:19:45
so many. There are so many of these. Alright,
1:19:49
try it for real this time. Okay. Okay. Sorry.
1:20:01
No, you're good. Saint Vitus. It's just the fact
1:20:22
that you're trying to, like, you're going, okay.
1:20:27
And then it's just crazy. Okay, I'll just smile
1:20:34
through it. I'm like, don't laugh. Don't laugh.
1:20:41
Yeah. All right, I'm just going to be smiling
1:20:45
for you. Yeah. Saint Vitus. Are you... Oh my
1:20:51
gosh, I lost it. I made it past the first one.
1:20:56
Sicily's coming up. I'm going to do it one more
1:21:01
time and then I'll do it normal if it doesn't
1:21:02
work. Saint Vedith, a youth of Sicily was from
1:21:21
his childhood. How can we not get further than
1:21:28
that? I gotta do it normal. I'm just gonna do
1:21:32
it normal.