Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Schools Need an AI Story, Not Just AI Tools | with Dr. Sabba Quidwai

Transcript

Schools Need an AI Story, Not Just AI Tools | with Dr. Sabba Quidwai · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:39
This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla, and I'm
0:43
joined by always as co -host David Berner. And
0:46
our special guest here with us today is Sabah
0:48
Quidwai. We're really thrilled to have you with
0:52
us, Sabah. And one of the things we try to do
0:55
is let the guest. kind of tell their story a
0:58
little bit about how did you get to this place
1:02
that you're at from, you know, moving from the
1:04
classroom into areas of innovation, working with
1:08
Apple and helping to design schools and, you
1:11
know, like what connects all of that stuff together
1:14
to where we are today. You know what connects
1:17
all those pieces together is literally my own
1:19
journey as a student having to figure out the
1:22
world of work when you graduate feeling unprepared.
1:24
I feel like that's probably the easiest way to
1:26
put it. So first of all, thanks for having me
1:27
here. I'm so excited to chat with you both. And
1:30
so yes, I always say like I've had many roles,
1:32
like you just listed many of them. But I think
1:34
what really drives a lot of my work is my own
1:36
experience as a student. I graduated in 2007,
1:39
which was literally a couple of months before
1:41
the recession. And it was also the year of the
1:43
iPhone launch. So, you know, looking back now,
1:46
you realize that mobility played such a huge
1:48
role in a lot of the technology that we use today
1:51
that we honestly don't even think twice about.
1:54
But not even just mobility, what really transformed
1:56
a lot of the things to allow us to be more mobile
1:59
in how we work, how we learn, and all those different
2:01
things was the app store and the app economy.
2:04
And it's so crazy to think that there was a world
2:06
before the app store, because today there's an
2:08
app for everything that we use. I feel like before
2:10
we're even out of the door in the morning, we've
2:12
already used probably five or six different applications.
2:15
But one of the things that I really struggled
2:17
with early on, I would graduate as a high school
2:20
history teacher, was I didn't feel like I knew
2:23
how to use technology for academic and professional
2:26
opportunities. I had a lot of technology in my
2:29
personal life. My dad was, we had video cameras
2:32
growing up, we had every single technology available,
2:35
but I had never really made that connection between...
2:38
personal use and academic and professional use.
2:41
And so when I graduated, I feel like while I
2:43
was very well versed in like project based learning,
2:45
because that's pretty much what my program was
2:47
all about. I didn't really know how to use technology
2:50
to accelerate those kinds of experiences and
2:53
opportunities. In fact, I was actually very much
2:55
the opposite. Even though I used a lot of technology
2:57
in my personal life, I was not somebody who could
3:00
really understand why you would want to use technology
3:02
for school, like why do kids need to be on devices?
3:05
Even when iPads came out, I was very much like,
3:07
why do we need this? And it was a line I had
3:10
read in 2010 from Seth Godin that really helped
3:13
shift my perspective because I kept getting layoff
3:15
notices. So I graduated in 2007. But obviously,
3:18
when the recession hit in 2008, I got a layoff
3:21
notice. I got a pink slip again in 2009. It was
3:23
just year after year. And I almost quit the profession
3:26
and went into marketing. And because I was researching
3:29
marketing, I came across Seth Godin and a book
3:31
that he had written called Linchpin. And in the
3:34
book Linchpin, he basically was like, that world
3:36
of work, you graduate, go to school, get good
3:38
grades. it's dead. Like it expired and no one
3:40
told you. And so it's very interesting even now
3:43
for me to listen to a lot of people that talk
3:45
about work and how things are changing for entry
3:47
-level jobs to now you're hearing the same narrative
3:49
that Seth Godin said was dead in 2010 and people
3:52
are acting like it just died in 2025 or 2022
3:55
when Chad Gbt came around. So I think a lot of
3:58
my own experience like I actually was that person
4:00
I was that graduate and then Seth Godin's book
4:02
had this one line that was basically like Today's
4:05
world doesn't want people that like know things.
4:07
They need people who are linchpins, basically
4:09
your problem solvers. You can go into organizations
4:11
and you can almost see like white spaces. You
4:14
are not somebody who just sees a problem. You're
4:16
somebody who comes up with a solution and you
4:18
don't just come up with a solution. You know
4:19
how to like build momentum with people around
4:22
you to be able to get to where you want to go.
4:25
And so that one book really changed the first
4:28
half of my career. I became a lot more interested
4:30
in technology. I was like, okay, fine. I don't
4:31
know how to use it, but it's a challenge. Clearly
4:33
people don't know what to do. I'm going to help
4:35
build a solution. And just my own experience
4:38
and embracing it in that way really changed my
4:40
own perspective on technology and how powerful
4:42
it can be. And then I became obsessed. And then
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I couldn't stop writing about it online and whatnot.
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And then the second thing that really, I think,
4:49
changed the second half of my career that led
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me to where I am now was a book in 2014 by Eric
4:55
Rignolson and Andrew McAfee. And the last line
4:57
of the book was called The Second Machine Age.
5:00
And the last line of the book was technology
5:02
is not destiny. We shape our destiny. And the
5:05
whole book was about a and how that was going
5:07
to be the next big wave of technology that was
5:09
going to transform the economy and everything
5:11
else. They're both economists who wrote the book.
5:13
And it made me really curious because I was like,
5:15
OK, I wasn't prepared for the last thing. I want
5:18
to absolutely not just myself be prepared for
5:20
AI and what comes next, but how do we help schools
5:23
prepare as well? So in 2017, I went back to school
5:26
to do my doctorate to basically research what
5:28
are the skills of mindsets we would need to be
5:30
successful in the age of AI. Yeah and I can really
5:34
tell from the way that you're talking is you
5:35
have those those moments or those um you definitely
5:41
influenced by but you you weave your personal
5:43
narrative through that too and is that how you're
5:45
approaching AI too is that we need to be using
5:48
it kind of as with that lens of our personal
5:51
narrative to make sure that it does focus on
5:54
that human centeredness and that approach towards
5:57
towards it. Yeah, it's so funny. We're getting
6:00
ready to do a webinar tomorrow, and it's like
6:01
literally one of the biggest pieces in there.
6:03
I actually think one of the biggest missed pieces
6:04
with AI is we start too quickly with the technology
6:07
and the tool, and we don't spend enough time
6:09
thinking about ourselves. So I think if you don't
6:11
have, and I think this is why you have fear with
6:14
AI. It's great to, obviously you want to have
6:16
fear around jobs, environment, and those kinds
6:18
of challenges, but if you ever have a fear around
6:21
your own identity and the fact that AI can replace
6:24
you as a person, I always say it's probably because
6:27
you just haven't had of time to reconnect with
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your purpose, what brings you meaning, and how
6:32
you can really be valuable in doing what it is
6:35
you want to do. Because I guarantee you it's
6:37
not making a slide deck sitting at your computer
6:38
or writing emails or any of that kind of monotonous
6:41
work that we're often spending most of our time
6:43
doing. So I really encourage people to create
6:46
that about me statement, to lean into what are
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my values? What are the teaching practices and
6:51
pedagogies that I'm really passionate about integrating
6:54
that I want to do more of? And I think when you
6:56
start from there, where you realize that we're
6:59
not even scratching the surface on what we can
7:01
do and how AI can then be a partner with you
7:04
in doing more of what it is you hope to do. And
7:09
one of the things that you've mentioned in there
7:11
is like the mindset shift or what is the things
7:15
that you see as you've been looking at AI and
7:20
schools? And one of the things that we see a
7:22
lot is schools tend to be really slow systems
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and they take a while to change some things.
7:31
So what have you seen or what things have you
7:34
done that would have been successful in terms
7:38
of getting those shifts to happen? Because we
7:42
do see so much tool adoption right away, because
7:44
it's the easiest thing. It's like the easiest
7:46
entry point. And we always realize too, like,
7:49
teachers need time with the tools that they're
7:52
going to be using. But how do you balance those
7:55
things of like the tool side versus like actually
7:59
getting the whole system to shift? Yeah, absolutely.
8:03
I'll tell you something else that's really funny
8:05
is every industry thinks they're slow to adopt.
8:07
So education's like, oh my God, we're so slow.
8:09
I work with real estate. They're like, oh, we're
8:11
so slow. We work with medicine. They're like,
8:13
oh, we're so slow. We work with finance. They're
8:15
like, oh, we're so slow. So let me tell you,
8:16
every single industry thinks they're slow. And
8:19
really, it's not about being slow. It's really
8:20
about being intentional, right? I think you don't
8:23
want to misread those two words and confuse the
8:25
two words and what they are. So I think with
8:27
schools, it's usually people want to be intentional.
8:29
But I think a lot of times, it's just a lot of
8:31
fear. that can sometimes come in the way of the
8:34
intentions that you have and how you bring people
8:36
along. So I'll tell you step number one, the
8:38
challenge that we see or the gap that we see,
8:41
and when you solve for it, it helps, is no story.
8:44
People don't want a story about AI. They want
8:46
a story about them, their community, and their
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vision. And the first thing we always do when
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we work with anybody is we'll go to your website,
8:53
we'll pull up your vision statement, and we'll
8:54
be like, here it is. You have it already. There's
8:56
so many things that people already have that
8:58
they just don't realize. And so a lot of early
9:01
work that we do with people is putting together
9:02
pieces. Let's look at all the pieces that you
9:04
have. People have different things. Some people
9:06
have learner profiles. Some people have vision
9:08
statements. Some people have strategic priorities.
9:10
Everybody has a story already. likely isn't in
9:14
a story format ready for you to tell. It's likely
9:17
in a vision statement, it's in a graphic, it's
9:20
hidden in your documents somewhere. So the first
9:22
thing you want to do is pull out a story for
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why this technology can help you be more of who
9:28
you are as an individual, as an organization,
9:31
and as a community. And what that does is it
9:34
creates shared language for every single person
9:37
in your organization and community, from families
9:40
to classified, certificated, to students. to
9:43
everybody. So this to me is the biggest missing
9:45
gap, which is why people usually bring me in
9:46
for a keynote. And then I'll come in with a keynote
9:48
and I'll have like a story for you. And now you'll
9:50
have a mindset shift. So story is like the most
9:53
human element that you can bring into the equation
9:55
to calm people's fears, but also ignite hope,
10:00
opportunity and optimism and all of those different
10:02
elements. So that's number one. Number two is
10:06
I think how people are introduced to AI makes
10:09
or breaks the mindset that comes next. Because
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at the end of the day, you don't know what you
10:15
don't know. And I'll tell you how I learned this
10:17
recently. I mean, I've always been really opposed
10:19
to the magic school birth school AIs of the world,
10:22
not because I think they're bad tools, but because
10:24
I think they give people a bad representation
10:26
of what AI is and where it is going. And if you
10:29
don't have that understanding, you then think
10:31
those tools are AI. And yes, they are a version
10:34
of it, but it's not. and you were close to the
10:36
technology and its goals for what it hopes to
10:38
become. So the other day I was on Instagram and
10:41
I saw this like, you know how like when posts
10:42
go viral, like they pop up in everyone's feed.
10:44
So I saw a post about a teacher who was like,
10:47
do you think it's weird that districts block
10:50
TPT, but they're pushing us all to magic school.
10:54
And you should have seen the comments on this
10:56
post. There were hundreds, hundreds of teachers
10:58
asking two things. I would say about 80 % of
11:01
the teachers were in agreement. So first of all,
11:02
I didn't know so many districts that started
11:04
blocking TPT, which is teachers pay teachers,
11:06
if you don't know. But the fact that these teachers
11:09
were making a correlation to teachers pay teachers
11:11
and magic school. right away tells you what their
11:14
impression of AI is, right? Like I would never
11:16
make that correlation. But if your impression
11:18
of AI is that it's a answer generator, it's a
11:22
creator of things for you, not with you. then
11:25
it makes total sense why you would make that
11:27
correlation. So they're basically saying, well,
11:29
why wouldn't I just go buy ready -made something
11:31
from a teacher who's a real human versus pushing
11:34
a button and getting something from an AI that's
11:37
not a human and not supporting a human either?
11:39
So if this is your baseline foundation of what
11:42
AI means in your district, you cannot go up from
11:45
there. You just simply cannot. So I'm going to
11:47
be an uphill battle. So the very first thing
11:49
you want to do is really give people an understanding
11:51
of the technology, not just where it is today,
11:53
but also where it's going. because somebody who
11:55
is using magic school and school AI has absolutely
11:58
no clue will never be able to wrap themselves
12:00
head around. Cowork or Claude or code or any
12:03
of the other things that we're seeing literally
12:05
right now, not even futuristic elements. Things
12:07
that are happening right now. So these are probably
12:09
the two biggest mistakes that I see happening
12:11
right now. So when I remember reading something
12:15
that you had written, it was awhile back and
12:18
I don't even remember what it was for. But you
12:21
talked about, you know, we need to stop. seeing
12:23
AI as a tool and start seeing it as a teammate.
12:27
And I think is this part of the solution to help
12:30
people move beyond just what they can get from
12:33
Magic School, School of AI, BRISC, any of those
12:36
numbers that you mentioned in that little last
12:39
response, but into what can we do with it now?
12:42
How can we use it to help advance not just our
12:46
instructional practices and creating experiences
12:49
for students to learn from, but maybe even to
12:51
challenge our own thinking? Yeah, absolutely.
12:54
You know, it's really about creating a system
12:57
for people, right? So like one of the things
12:59
we don't want to do like, you know, in education,
13:01
we already work in silos. So the last thing we
13:03
want to do is have people go building teams in
13:05
silos, right? Like now everybody's like off with
13:06
their own little AI is doing their own little
13:08
thing. What we really want to do is start looking
13:10
at like Where is the opportunity to scale best
13:14
practices? And there was a really good book written
13:17
on this. You know, Joe Mehta, who's a professor
13:19
at Harvard, had a doctoral student, Sarah Fine,
13:21
who now teaches at High Tech High. And this was
13:24
before AI, before everything, before COVID even.
13:26
And they wrote a book called In Search of Deeper
13:28
Learning. And back then, I'm sure you guys remember,
13:30
it was all the rage was like 21st century schools
13:32
preparing for the 21st century and whatnot. And
13:35
so they did a study on let's go look at the breakdown
13:38
of a 21st century school. What are they doing?
13:40
And what they ended up saying in their book was
13:43
there actually was no such thing as a 21st century
13:45
school. What there was, was pockets of excellence
13:48
in every school, but awful practices in every
13:51
school where kids are doing worksheets and things
13:52
like that as well. So to me, the opportunity
13:54
I see with AI is like, you can take those best
13:57
practices, those pockets of excellence, and you
13:59
can package them into an agent, a gem, whatever
14:02
it is that you want to do. and scale that out
14:05
to everybody by creating a system, by creating
14:07
basically a bunch of teammates that they can
14:09
work with. So I'll give you a really good example.
14:11
This is an example of Harvard's visible thinking
14:13
routines. One of the things that we hear so much
14:15
these days is metacognition, process of a product,
14:18
change your assessments. It's a very hard thing
14:20
for most people to do because they likely don't
14:23
have the practices, the strategies, x, y, z.
14:25
However, if you go in and create a bunch of teammates
14:28
that are trained on, let's just say, the visible
14:31
thinking routines from Harvard's Project Zero,
14:33
you literally could create an entire set of practices
14:36
that you could just hand out to people tomorrow.
14:39
They don't even have to be super well versed
14:41
in what they all are and whatnot, but they do
14:43
have to be well versed in implementation, which
14:45
I find that most people are able to do once they
14:47
get a strategy, which is why Teachers Pay Teachers
14:49
works really well, because they can buy a strategy
14:52
to implement. It's the implementation and application
14:54
that's hard for them, that's easy for them, not
14:57
the thinking piece of it. We know what works,
14:59
we know the strategies, we know the pedagogy.
15:01
But having the time to actually sit there and
15:04
apply that to your practice and then implement
15:06
and integrate it, this is hard. So what does
15:08
Teachers Pay Teachers done for people? It's packaged
15:10
up the resources for you so you can focus on
15:12
implementation. You can do this with a much,
15:15
much, much higher bar using AI tools, but doing
15:18
it yourself or your community based on your practices,
15:21
your vision, your graduate profile, whatever
15:23
your pieces are. And instead of leaving people
15:27
with just the ready -made package, it gets people
15:30
excited to then want to make changes. So then
15:33
what we find is people will come back and be
15:35
like, well, can I make it do this? Can I make
15:38
it do that? And that's the agency piece now,
15:40
right? Now they're not talking about tools. They're
15:42
talking about what they need and the problems
15:44
they want solved or the ideas they have or what
15:47
they'd like to see be implemented and created.
15:49
And you can almost reverse engineer. how you
15:52
learn AI. So instead of teaching people like,
15:54
you know, how to prompt and how to do all these
15:56
things, which there's a time and a place for
15:57
that. But if you are worried about time and if
16:00
you're not in this place already, you should
16:02
be worried about time. I think reverse engineering,
16:05
how people learn can create more agency, more
16:08
ownership and just more autonomy and motivation
16:11
in getting people invested in building their
16:13
own tools. So then, you know, it forces them
16:18
to kind of create their own story. Then they're
16:21
going to turn around and say look what this was
16:23
able to do for me, right? And then it can spill
16:26
over into that classroom next. You know, maybe
16:28
help break down that silo a little bit more when
16:31
they can share the different ways that they're
16:33
able to use their teammates to. you know, improve
16:36
it, you know, and what's interesting too is that
16:39
when you're talking about you're using AI to
16:41
help you with some of the the content related
16:44
things, some of the curricular related things
16:46
perhaps, the teacher is still their their content
16:49
expert though so they know what to include and
16:51
not include and it's really comes down to whether
16:54
they're getting the content from teachers pay
16:55
teachers or from an AI agent of some sort. it
17:00
still comes down to how they're going to implement
17:02
it. So they still need to be their pedagogical
17:04
experts. They still need to understand where
17:07
their students are at and how to best meet their
17:09
needs. Yeah, absolutely. I think that the biggest
17:12
differentiator is you get to really personalize
17:14
based on strategies and practices that matter
17:16
to you. Because everywhere I go, people have
17:19
different things. They're implementing different
17:21
strategies. They're trying different frameworks
17:23
they've adopted. And I think, you know, and to
17:25
me, this is, again, a really great example of
17:27
showing people like the human work of things.
17:29
When you bring, say, like a fifth grade department
17:32
team together or you bring a ninth grade English
17:35
team together and you start sharing, OK, what's
17:37
working for you? would you like to scale? What
17:40
practices do you wish we could do more of? And
17:42
you're like sitting there curating all of that
17:44
information and to say like notebook LM. And
17:46
now everybody gets access to that notebook. You've
17:49
basically given everybody access to this like
17:51
brain, right? Which is now going to power your
17:54
AI tools. So instead of it sort of just being
17:56
like something that you're just like getting
17:58
from the internet or that you haven't trained
18:00
or that isn't, that doesn't know you and how
18:03
you work, you're. Quality of answers are just
18:06
night and day. So when people really start training
18:09
and thinking of building a system, like, OK,
18:11
this is our intelligence layer. This is our application
18:14
layer. This is our distribution layer for how
18:16
we're going to give things out, which, by the
18:18
way, is all free for most people with Gemini.
18:20
At some point, yes, if you really start to get
18:22
aggressive about these strategies, you're going
18:24
to have to upgrade and pay for the plan. But
18:26
the fact that they've given people access to
18:28
building a system like this for free, is they're
18:32
really the only people who have done it like
18:34
properly kind of with like a little bit of a
18:36
you know no expiration date so to speak and so
18:38
I just think there's a lot of power right now
18:40
in being able to step back from just looking
18:42
at things as isolated tools and being like how
18:45
does this work as a system to support people
18:48
with goals towards our vision and I think when
18:51
you give that to people it's harder. And the
18:54
benefit to it being harder is nobody thinks AI
18:57
is easy anymore. When your version of AI is click
18:59
buttons and generate something for me. Yeah,
19:02
that's why you have a lot of people that think
19:03
AI is cheating because they see students using
19:05
it the same way. So when you engage people in
19:08
work, that's a little bit harder, which I find
19:09
people are hesitant to do because they're scared
19:11
that, oh, it's going to be too much for them.
19:13
They just need step one. They're afraid. But
19:15
I actually find that when you challenge people
19:17
more, they rise to the occasion and they're more
19:19
interested in doing harder things than they are
19:22
in doing easier things. Do you think this AI
19:25
mindset here is scalable to students as well?
19:29
And if so, when in that that journey, you know,
19:33
is it already in elementary or do I need to wait
19:36
till high school to be able to experience that?
19:39
Oh my god, so many people asked me that question
19:41
and I feel like it is very contextual. It's really
19:43
hard for me to say. And also because I don't
19:46
like to say anything that I don't do myself.
19:48
So I'll be really honest, like when it comes
19:49
to my niece and nephew, we don't do any AI. The
19:52
only thing we did recently was we bought my nephew
19:55
a MacBook Neo. I'm a big fan of this new MacBook
20:00
they brought out because I think they've made
20:02
so many things accessible to people that I don't
20:05
think are with a Chromebook and other types of
20:07
tools. But there's three reasons I got my nephew
20:11
a MacBook Neo and he's seven. Number one is He
20:14
loves 3D printing. So he has a 3D printer. He's
20:16
always using his laptop. Now he can go in and
20:18
3D print on his own. Number two, my own experience
20:22
using Claude code and noticing my own vulnerability
20:26
because I don't know how to code made me be like,
20:29
like we need to double down on this. And it's
20:31
interesting because this is also a time, I think,
20:33
when a lot of people are saying, oh, you don't
20:35
need to know how to code and you don't. And the
20:37
best analogy I give people is you have a new
20:41
species on Earth, whatever you want to call it,
20:43
whatever you want to say it is. You have a new
20:45
entity on Earth that works with us. And they're
20:47
not going anywhere. But they have a different
20:49
language. And their language is code, Python,
20:52
HTML, whatever you want to call it. They know
20:55
our language. They can speak to us in French,
20:56
in English, in Spanish, in Arabic, and whatever
20:58
you want to say. If you don't know code, you
21:01
don't speak their language. And it's almost like
21:03
being in a foreign country where you kind of
21:05
sort of know it, like, oh, I speak Spanish. I
21:07
can get by. I can order this. I can order that.
21:10
But when you don't know the nuances, let's say
21:12
you're in Spain and you think you can speak Spanish
21:14
or you think you can read a menu, because maybe
21:17
you do speak and read Spanish, but you're allergic
21:19
to something and you miss that's lost in translation
21:22
between you and the waiter, that one word, that
21:25
one ingredient, and now all of a sudden your
21:26
EpiPen comes out because you have an allergic
21:28
reaction. When you work with AI agents, there
21:31
is no epipen for you. There is no moment for
21:35
you unless something really drastic happens where
21:37
you may even notice that there was a hack or
21:39
a vulnerability that you were exposed to. So
21:41
yes, can anybody go in and type in natural language
21:44
and build? Absolutely. Can they identify very
21:48
nuanced vulnerabilities? No. I don't believe
21:51
so. I haven't been able to. I've made mistakes.
21:54
Claude is the one that's correcting me as we're
21:57
working and being like, hey, Saba, don't do that.
21:59
Hey, Saba, you put this API pin in here. Don't
22:01
do that. Go revoke this in XYZ. Claude's taking
22:03
care of me versus me being the one in charge
22:05
of it. So I think coding is really, really, really
22:09
important to learn as a language. And number
22:12
three, voice. I think voice is the future. And
22:14
I think this is a very hard thing to even bring
22:17
into conversation unless people are really ready
22:19
for it, because most people can't even let go
22:20
of typing and writing. But voice, without a doubt,
22:23
is the future. Your ability to articulate your
22:26
ideas, your ability to see a problem, all building
22:29
off of, right, the same ideas that I just talked
22:31
about with Seth Godin in the lunch pin, are becoming
22:33
more and more and more and more and more important.
22:35
Some people will write to think, some people
22:37
will type to think, some people will draw to
22:39
think, some people will use voice. And one of
22:42
the things that I think is so awesome about voice,
22:44
all kids know how to talk. Once they know how
22:46
to talk, they're ready to go. And I think writing
22:50
is actually a limitation in many ways to children
22:53
and their agency because they have ideas, but
22:55
they don't have the ability to always articulate
22:58
it. So hit F5 on that Mac, tell your AI tools
23:01
what you want to build, what you want to do,
23:03
and you're learning how to code. This is agency.
23:07
I think actually talking out loud makes me say,
23:10
If your experience with technology is amplifying
23:14
agency and you have a very clear through line
23:17
through how you are building agency within a
23:19
child, then go for it. Otherwise, I do think
23:24
it's... I am in that party that believes that
23:27
using AI will make people think less, not because
23:30
I think AI is the problem, but because I think
23:32
the way experiences are designed are the problem.
23:34
And so if you're not taught how to brainstorm
23:36
properly, if you're not taught how to use it
23:37
as a teammate properly, if somebody is not scaffolding
23:40
out that experience for you in a very methodical
23:42
way, I am of that party that believes it's more
23:48
problematic than it is helpful. I think I want
23:52
to just Ask you a little bit about like the coding
23:54
part because I had a very similar experience
23:56
with Some stuff that I was doing and Jeremy knows
23:59
about this but we're working on some projects
24:01
and I don't know anything about coding either
24:03
but Through using like v0 dev if you're familiar
24:07
with that And now obviously like the way that
24:11
the large language models have progressed they
24:13
have the ability in there as well to create and
24:16
code and Creating websites and things like that.
24:18
So we've seen all that What? What has been your
24:23
experience with the coding? Because for me, it's
24:26
been one of the most challenging and rewarding
24:29
things that I've done because of the fact that
24:32
I didn't know what API key was. I didn't know
24:34
anything. I had the same exact experience where
24:37
it was giving me errors and I was like, okay,
24:40
well help me fix the error. Because I knew in
24:43
my head, I had this picture of what I wanted
24:46
to create around AI. But it was just a picture
24:52
in my head at that point. So then I'm like working
24:54
with vZero Dev to kind of explain things and
24:57
give it images and things that would represent
24:59
what I was trying to build. And then eventually
25:02
we got to it, but it did take, I mean, hours
25:05
upon hours of me working with it. And this was
25:07
last year, so obviously it's gotten much better.
25:10
But what was your experience with things that
25:13
you've built in that same process? Yeah. So I
25:17
would say I was way behind you because I had
25:19
a huge mindset block in my head, even though
25:20
I had heard all these people. And I think this
25:22
is why starting with the technology is problematic
25:24
and not starting with a story because you don't
25:25
hook people. So even though I had heard about
25:27
like vibe coding and this and that from so many
25:29
people I saw at conferences, I saw in all these
25:31
places, I just kept hearing about the technology
25:33
and I didn't really keep hearing. I just kept
25:35
hearing you can build things, do things, whatever.
25:37
But in my head, because I had such a mindset
25:38
block towards, well, I don't know how to code.
25:40
I don't know how to do that. I just simply didn't
25:42
believe it. And it wasn't until Cowork came out.
25:45
from Claude in February of this year, that I
25:48
was finally like, OK, you know what? I'm going
25:50
to just step in and do that. But I would say
25:51
it took me a lot of months just to do the mindset
25:53
work to get over the fear of, OK, no, you can
25:56
do this. So that was number one. I was way behind
25:59
you. Second, I feel like I have a whole new vocabulary.
26:02
There are all these words that I just didn't
26:03
know and phrases that I didn't know and things
26:06
that I just didn't know that now I do. And so
26:08
one of the things I do find between all people
26:11
who have been building and have been doing things,
26:13
I think there's a real testament to building
26:16
is learning. We all love to build. It's such
26:18
a deeply human feeling of accomplishment, of
26:23
challenge, of hard. That's why I'm saying people
26:26
enjoy hard things versus easier things. I would
26:29
say this is a real testament to what happens
26:31
for agency when you allow people to build and
26:33
you engage them in the messiness of learning
26:35
no matter what their age is. This is number two.
26:38
Number three, it really, I just don't understand
26:41
how it was not made a language that you could
26:43
choose, how it was not categorized as a foreign
26:46
language because it is a language. And Apple
26:49
used to say it all the time, right? Like coding
26:50
is the language of technology. Everyone should
26:52
know the language to build something that can
26:54
change the world, which sounds so aspirational
26:56
10 years ago, 15 years ago. But today, here we
26:59
are. Who are the people that are building things
27:00
that can change the world? Software developers,
27:02
people who know how to code. Because while you
27:05
can build something, the real question to ask
27:07
is, can you deploy and monetize something? And
27:10
if you can't do the latter part, yeah, sure,
27:12
there's a time and place you might build a fun
27:13
recipe thing for your family or something like
27:15
that. But at the end of the day, if you can't
27:17
monetize, you don't have access to new careers
27:19
and new jobs. And so I think that's another thing
27:21
a lot of people are afraid to say, like, no,
27:23
this is just about learning. yes it's about learning
27:25
but we also have to learn how to make money because
27:27
if you don't learn how to make money you don't
27:29
get employed and then we have an entry -level
27:30
job problem and whatnot. So this is being probably
27:33
some of the most interesting things to me and
27:35
I think If you understand the vulnerability you
27:37
have with coding, you will double down, hopefully,
27:41
on making sure that we don't repeat that same
27:43
mistake with AI, because that's what I see now.
27:46
If you didn't know how to code, OK, you could
27:48
sort of get by. I think if we don't start giving
27:50
people AI skills, and by those AI skills doesn't
27:54
necessarily mean put them in front of a chatbot.
27:55
I think you're going to create a vulnerability
27:57
that will make people obsolete in society that
28:01
is very hard to recover from, I think, especially
28:04
if you're young. Yeah, so that's been my experience.
28:08
It's made me double down even more on many of
28:10
the things that I've been talking about. Yeah,
28:12
I know for me, too, like I wouldn't have like
28:16
the coding thing. I would never would have done
28:17
that if this wasn't available. It just wasn't
28:20
in my wheelhouse. And so I never approached it.
28:22
But then because of that access to it, Then I
28:26
was like, I'll just try it and see what happens.
28:30
Did it go well? No, not at first, but then eventually
28:34
you get to it and through all the different challenges
28:36
that came about, it just got better and better
28:39
as it went. Obviously too, like you said, you
28:43
start to pick up on things like different keys
28:45
and maybe Duolingo needs to get on this, but
28:49
with a language for coding. That's that's what
28:53
my experience was and it sounds very similar
28:55
for you But I think I would love to see more
28:58
and more people approach that and I'm I'm looking
29:00
forward to doing that more with some of the things
29:02
that become available to but Yeah, no same here
29:05
I'd say the other thing you know that I've also
29:07
learned like there's a difference between like
29:08
building and doing and I think a lot of people
29:11
when they talk about coding and they talk about
29:13
AI with this capability it's very much about
29:15
humans building but I don't think people realize
29:17
this is how also agents are doing so the biggest
29:20
biggest shift for me has been I think for the
29:22
longest time we've heard that promise of AI that
29:24
will do things for you it will you know it will
29:27
make things it will do things for you right like
29:29
it will take tasks off your plate and I think
29:31
working with Claude code and co -work it is It's
29:35
still really hard to wrap your head around. AI
29:37
can do things. And one of the things that I think
29:40
is really a big problem in society right now,
29:44
which is what happens also, I think, when you're
29:46
not educated about where AI is going, you don't
29:48
know how to advocate for yourself because you
29:50
don't know what you don't know. And I think right
29:52
now the fact that education doesn't have access
29:54
to this technology. I just don't, there's no
29:58
one to advocate for that because you don't have
29:59
enough people who are using it. You know, even
30:01
the people who are in charge of these technology
30:03
organizations and whatnot ask them, what are
30:05
you building? What are you doing with cloth?
30:06
Like, have you tried co -work? Oh no, I haven't
30:08
done that yet. Well, guess what? If you don't
30:10
do this and you don't understand what has happened
30:12
in the last 12 months, how in the world are you
30:15
going to advocate for any kind of policy change
30:17
or even just how to get these kinds of things
30:20
in people's hands? So one of the things you do
30:22
do is You don't necessarily need that exact platform.
30:25
But again, I go back to I think what Google have
30:27
done is so generous because you can pretty much
30:29
take the experience you're having in Claude and
30:32
co -create it for people inside of the Gemini
30:34
ecosystem. It's a little bit of DIYing because
30:37
some of their pieces I think are a little bit
30:39
more fragmented than Claude, which has just integrated
30:42
a lot of things so you're not thinking about
30:44
them twice. But you can take the same experience
30:48
and replicate it as a system inside of Gemini.
30:52
Do you think schools will limit some of the availability
30:55
of students, especially, but maybe even to some
30:57
extent to teachers, because they tend to be very
31:01
rules -based? And I get why, right? So how do
31:08
you find those pockets of innovation or avenues
31:11
of innovation where teachers could really lean
31:14
into if they want to be able to? you know, really
31:18
take advantage of some of the different types
31:20
of things here that, you know, both you and David
31:22
have both been talking about. I feel like I've
31:23
just kind of been listening in on some of that
31:25
stuff and getting excited about it. But, you
31:27
know, what can be done there? Yeah, I think,
31:31
you know, so much of it to me goes goes back
31:34
to knowledge. I think the one, you know, benefit
31:37
you have in education is you don't have to keep
31:40
up with every single latest thing that's happening
31:42
right and give it to people. When we think about
31:46
AI we can really think about it in two ways,
31:48
right? Like you have your adults and then you
31:50
have your young people and they each need. similar
31:53
experiences, but they each also need different
31:54
experiences. You know, if you're five or if you're
31:57
15 or if you're 20, you need very different experiences
32:00
and training than say somebody who's already
32:03
established in a profession and in an industry.
32:05
And so there is a moment where you can like really
32:08
be like, okay, this is what's happening, but
32:10
these are the skills that matter. So one of the
32:12
things that you realize when you listen to people's
32:14
curiosity is one of the top listed skills. You
32:17
don't really build curiosity by sitting in front
32:19
of a screen, right? Teamwork is really, really,
32:22
really an important skill. Not now even anymore
32:24
just teamwork between humans, but teamwork between
32:26
humans and AI technology, right? So we haven't
32:29
even nailed one of them yet. Collaboration is
32:31
always cited as one of the biggest problems or
32:33
barriers that people have to innovation and things
32:36
like that. So we haven't even solved for one
32:38
type of collaboration, and now you've got a whole
32:39
other one you have to deal with too. So I think
32:41
a lot of these skills are taught without technology.
32:45
And one of the reasons I tell people to lean
32:46
into this is I think too many people are discounting
32:51
the anti -tech backlash that we're seeing right
32:53
now. You know, it really started with that Jonathan
32:55
Haidt, but now you have this new guy called Horvath.
32:58
I think that's his name. And I think what really
33:01
sucks is there's so much validity to what they
33:04
say. And when I look at our side, I don't know
33:07
that we have a good, compelling story or a good
33:10
narrative that's going to win people over because
33:12
we've taken such a tool -based approach to things.
33:14
That guy ripped iReady apart, and you can't refute
33:18
him. He's right in what he's saying, yet look
33:21
around at how many people have kids every single
33:23
day on iReady just going through the app and
33:25
going through the thing and calling that technology
33:26
and learning. So we think there's just like so
33:29
much messiness right now that if you don't educate
33:32
people properly on what is happening, where is
33:36
the technology going, what is coming next. You
33:39
almost can't even build a strategy if your foundation
33:43
is incorrect or you're not working with the right
33:46
building blocks and the right pieces of information.
33:49
So to me right now, I feel like such an important
33:51
thing is like educate people in what's happening
33:53
because you can tell the fact that NYC just put
33:57
out guidelines saying you may do this tells you
34:01
how not knowledgeable people are because if you
34:04
think you can still go to a kid and you may use
34:06
AI here and you may not use it here. Good luck.
34:09
If that's your strategy, good luck. But then
34:12
don't be surprised tomorrow when people have
34:13
anti -tech backlash, things don't work out well,
34:16
your kids don't use the tools properly, because
34:20
it really speaks to the fact that how little
34:22
you understand that agency is now shared between
34:24
humans and machines, and nobody builds agency
34:27
by saying, you can and can't do this when I tell
34:30
you to, because I'm treating you like a car and
34:32
telling you red, yellow, green. I just don't
34:35
understand the logic. Yeah, and I I really appreciate
34:39
that perspective and I think hopefully it with
34:41
some of the stuff that's coming out with dr Horvath
34:44
and the job job and height and that Maybe maybe
34:48
that will provide opportunities for more conversations
34:50
of how we should be approaching things Versus
34:53
what we've been doing so long with the just shoving
34:56
tools at everyone for so long So maybe maybe
35:00
we'll have opportunities for that I do want to
35:03
really thank you for your time and the conversation
35:08
and the insights that you've provided. I did
35:10
want to give you an opportunity before we end
35:13
here to is there anything that you have coming
35:15
up that you want to plug like events or socials,
35:18
just different things that we can put in our
35:21
in our show description to help you out and send
35:24
people your way? Yeah, I would say, you know,
35:27
I think the podcast and the podcast is one thing
35:29
every it's first of all, the one thing most people
35:31
share that they enjoy. So I would say the podcast,
35:35
because every single week, we break down for
35:37
you what's happening. You know, here's the news,
35:40
but not just like, oh, this happened, this happened,
35:41
this happened, contextualizing it for you. And
35:44
we talk a lot on the podcast about students and
35:47
a lot about like just entrepreneurship and the
35:50
opportunities that are available and the trends
35:52
that we're seeing and how. A lot of people right
35:55
now really think that there's no answers, that
35:58
everything's so new, that we don't know what
35:59
to do because everything's so new. And like,
36:02
this is just very incorrect. Like, yes, there's
36:04
a lot of unknown, but there's also a lot in the
36:07
research and the evidence and work that people
36:10
are currently doing that gives us direction for
36:13
where to move forward one step at a time. And
36:16
I think when you have that forward moving direction,
36:18
things that organically will allow you to make
36:21
the right choices, will put you around the right
36:24
people, to have more, I think, just accurate
36:29
information to make decisions about what to do.
36:32
So the podcast is really, it's one of my favorite
36:34
things to do each week, because it forces me
36:36
to sit down and learn and contextualize, and
36:38
it's one of the things that we get a lot of feedback
36:40
on from people. Great. We'll be sure to... put
36:45
that in our description as well. And some people
36:47
can check out your podcast and some of the things
36:50
that you've done with like design schools and
36:52
that. So again, we really appreciate your time.
36:56
Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.
37:01
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37:04
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37:23
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37:27
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