Latest / Putting Is Fun / Are Zero Torque Putters Already Fading on Tour? | Ep. 4

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Are Zero Torque Putters Already Fading on Tour? | Ep. 4 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-1: Or an Arnold Palm Blade or classic John Rooter. You can find your center, be a straight shooter. speaker-0: Peace. speaker-1: Train yourself to respect the three-footer. Or bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' putts will surely be fair. Putt, putt, putt, it's just like it seems. We can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes it is, folks. Brian Manzella and John Ortega with your favorite putting show and with Michael Jacobs' favorite song, Putting Is Fun. speaker-1: How about that? Who would have stunk? speaker-0: Who would have thunk, right? You gotta understand Mike, he's a great dude and a little bit of a curmudgeon, likes country music. This is not country, but he listens to all kinds of music, you know, he's a Billy Joe fan from Long Island. But when we were all just at Shinnecock for the week, the US Open and me and John are gonna talk about it a second, we would be driving, and it's like a two hour drive, even though Michael lives like 15 minutes from Shinnecock. It's two hours because the Day trade goes into the Hamptons and works on everybody's lawns and air conditioned units and all that stuff. And there's a US Open there. But he said, Hey, play that song again. So I had no problem doing it. And ⁓ it it's ⁓ the kind of song that you play it, and no matter what, it it brings a smile to your face. And I will always look back fondly at that week. I know. You know, you were there with with Jake Knapp and the the course was tough and and and you know, what was your overall experience at the US Open, Johnny? speaker-1: Well, personally, going into the week, Jake hadn't played golf for at least six weeks, probably more like eight. I don't know, I lost track. Correct. Yeah, his yes, his thumb was, you know, a little bit diminished or a lot diminished. But he did some injections and f came up with a brace and it worked great. And he's so he's on the mend and ⁓ you know, he went in with hardly any practice. And when he the first day he was hitting balls and looked pretty good and he pulled out his driver and that's kind of the moment of truth and high one eighty eight speaker-0: Hand hand injury, right? speaker-1: Ball speed with the standard, and then he got some 190s without trying too much. And so it looked pretty good. So most of the most of the ⁓ tournament that he played because he missed the cut, he was hitting the ball well, but he's just a little sh ⁓ wasn't sharp. Like he was hitting wedges into greens, they'd back up off the greens. He wouldn't get up and down. It was it was you know very difficult for everybody, but especially being not sharp, you know, it was is you know more difficult for him. But for fortunately, his his hands holding up great and he's playing some pretty good golf. ⁓ yesterday didn't play so great. I hadn't talked to him, but ⁓ that was what personally what I w was witnessing and going through. So what speaker-0: Did think what did you think about the course and the setup? There was a lot of, you know, talk that it wasn't hard enough. I think that's hilarious. speaker-1: Yeah, that's well, the first couple of days, I think what they did was they were patting their hand a little bit and the greens were a little bit softer than they typically would be, and they were putting slower. So they they knew that they were gonna dry them out, bake them out on the weekend. So if they stressed them all four days, by the time you get to Sunday, you're gonna have the situation where people are putting and playing hockey like ⁓ Phil Mickelson did that one year. Yep. So so they were just patting their hands. So I think they did a really good job of managing that. And ⁓ the course, the the fairways are fairly wide, but the wind blows really hard. So it's even hard to hit wide fairways, especially the guys hitting it as far as they do. So you saw a lot of a lot of people hitting out of the rough. And you know, sometimes you get lucky and you'd have a pretty good swing at the ball, and other times you're in clumps where you're just hacking it out. You know, you saw Sahala make a swing and like threw the club over behind him because he he just you know couldn't hold on to the club. speaker-0: So on our little place in the world of putting is fun. What about a US open? Generally, like when I think if somebody says, okay, Brian, I'm we're gonna play a word association game, US open putting, I say fast. Like that's the first thing that comes to my mind, slippery, slippery, Oakmont, Wingfoot, but But not just their regular speed. Maybe Oakmont is the only golf course they slow down for the US Open, but pretty much that's the thing. Now it hasn't been the thing in in modern times, but what is your US Open putting setup of sort of feeling? Do you think they do it better now or the historical lightning fast, like noticeably faster? When I was a kid, it was noticeably faster than a regular tour of. speaker-1: Yeah, think this week, ⁓ like I said, they they patted their hand so that it wouldn't get out of hand. But the greens are so undulating and you know, they're they're putting the pins. They're not putting them in like where it's four, four percent, but they're putting them in some twos. And if if they don't ⁓ manage the speed, you're gonna have some crazy breaking putts. In even at that, there there were some putts that had a good amount of movement and a short putt, you know, like a five foot putt, you might be ha having two or three cups, you know, feeling like you're on the fall line even. So it's I think that they did a pretty good job of managing the speed. And I think it kind of it's course dependent because if if the courses have, you know, pretty good ⁓ like like ⁓ a lot of the greens at Chinnocock, they're very domed. They kind of have the crown effect. So you know, you get something that's shaped like that and you make them too fast. It's just, you know, it's not gonna be all that puttable and the scores would get wildly high. So you know, in the first couple of days, Wyndham made it look like it was set up too easy, but everybody else was, you know, three or four under. They knew but the by the time the weekend would come and the f greens would get faster and harder and all the rest, that you know, the the scores were going to elevate. So I think they did a really good job in that regard. But I think that ⁓ you know it's all course dependent. If they if you get the course with has too much undulation and they go too fast, it's just not on ⁓ it's not playable. So I think they did a good job. And ⁓ I think historically they were, you know, looking back then when when ⁓ you heard about US opens of past people go, ⁓ these things are rolling at ten. Well, if they roll at ten, that's pretty slow for today, right? So they got ⁓ up to eleven. I think that's what they were gearing for. And that was fast enough. And in in those screens, you know, e even at ten you see guys putting and they're fairly tentative because, you know, they they they put a little too hard. They could end up with, you know, a six to eight footer coming back, even at ten step. So that's what that's my answer to that question. speaker-0: Okay, so that brings up an interesting thing, right? People back home in the South, ⁓ we put on Bermuda primarily. But below I t below I-20, which I-20, Dallas, Shreveport, Jackson, Mississippi, you know, Atlanta, Augusta. That's I-20. I-10 is Houston, New Orleans, Biloxi. Mobile Pensacola Jacksonville. Okay. So you you you're not really gonna have there's a few bent grass greens ⁓ on I 10 or or or in that area, but you have to have fans on every hole. It's ridiculous. But when you see, and I I don't even say the first of all, I don't even I know I don't even pronounce it correctly, but Poana, that's the way I always grew up saying it's just well. speaker-1: Close enough, that's how I say it too. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean they they they were they were you know sticking their nose in the air at at the TV commentators saying it that way. That's just a accepted, you know. My mama named me Brian, and most people in the business call me Manzella. I don't have any problem with that when I played ball, that's what everybody did. It's not my given name, okay. But it it it doesn't matter, right? But that stuff is what the greens are. Both at Oakmont, Shinnecock, and Costa Mesa. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. And some sometimes they'll mix in a little something with it. I think they did it Shinnicok also. So it might not be purely Poanna, but they're primarily Poana. And Poana, the characteristic of it is gets a little flowery sometimes. And you know, when when people walk on it, there gets a little trampled, so the ball has a little shimmy to it. And even saw ⁓ Wyndham Clark every once in a while kind of do this. He's going, ⁓ like Yeah. But but when when I see those pots roll out there, I mean The the greens look fine to me and they pot pretty good and you c they can't be terrible if he's hooping ⁓ from ten feet all the time for par, right? They just can't be. speaker-0: Absolutely not. No, I I played the golf course and and ⁓ a you know a few years, let's say 21, I was I was putting with my broomstick, you know, that we we talked about, and I I didn't do a very good job with the broomstick. I thought I made a pretty good stroke. I just couldn't make it and I couldn't aim it, but I wish I would have putted with a regular putter, but I didn't find that the Poe was baffling Poana. Like to me, Pebble Beach. Right. So that's one of our little five things. So we've had this little recurring thing in the show. The the five elements of putting, right? The putter, the golfer, and their stroke and their thought process. Then the the putty, right? The putty. Then the putter, you know, is it a lab putter? Is it that ping, you know, Scottsdale tech, whatever it is, white putter with the Freddie Haas dot in the front? The ball, you know, is it is it is it a sticky ball? Does it have dimples that Deflect, like Bryson DeChambeau talks about. The green, that's where we are today, and then the hole. The first non-Bramuda I ever putted on was Pebble. I when I played college tournaments, it was all Bermuda. I never I I made it, I was the first alternate to two national USGA tournaments. Didn't didn't didn't w didn't win one playoff and was first alternate by by losing by a shot in another. That would have been a shot at ⁓ Bangor, Maine and ⁓ yay, I think the other the other coast, like the upper mid, you know, Northwest. So I didn't get in. So 1987, I go see Ben Doyle. The day before I see him, I play Pebble Beach. I'd never putted on this stuff before. It it was well first of all, there's no ocean. I understand aim point, you know, there's no draw, the other but what people need to understand about that. Okay, let me let me I'm all over the place. Let me focus as Mike Daly always tells me to. Okay. So I'm putting on Pebble Beach's Greens. A. I've dreamt playing Pubba Beach my whole life. B, it's Poe. It's Poana Greens. Like all of it. It's not like Poe mixed in with Bent or something. It's Poe mixed in with other Poe. Poe. I hit a couple of practice puts. I was running late. I got lost getting there. Uh-uh. Okay. ⁓ one or two practice puts. I kind of got the idea of the speed. It also has the the the other effect. Okay, you got the surface. But the other part of the greens, like this one of the five things, is where it is, okay? It is flat as a pancake in New Orleans. It's flat as a pancake, more or less in Houston. It's flat as a pancake, more or less in Mobile, right? So all these places I had gone to to play in other tournaments outside of my hometown, the terrain is flat as a pancake. Now, when people talk about All putts break toward something. There's a reason for that. It's the overall terrain, right, Johnny? That's it. And if you've got all of the terrain, like at Pebble, is all probably, you know, prehistorically going toward the ocean, you sort of lose the feel for the little spot of terrain you're on. And I know nowadays in the aim point days, especially aim point express, which is using your feet, you know, and doing the little fingers. But at aim point regular and aim point express is both using your feet to sense right the slope, the 1%, 2%, uphill, side hill with all this stuff. And they when they first came out, that it was sort of a kind of attitude that the not not saying Sweeney, the the guy came up with or at least Got it all together. But the little authorized instructors all had like a little snobbery. And they went, ⁓ they all say, you know, when you go to Palm Springs, all the putts break to Indio, right? You know, it's a little town. It probably does, right? Because I mean, like the mountains all kind of went like this to a river and all the. That was the thing about Pebble Beach. So explain to people the difference between the overall terrain, because Costa Mesa is not flat as a pancake. You know, the the the area terrain versus the green you're you're putting on. Did I make any sense? I said a lot of words. speaker-1: You did, you did. You got there eventually. Okay, so the the overall terrain as you explained, you know, it's gonna be going down a mountain toward the ocean, let's just say, right? But there's a thing called the tractor. So when when people make speaker-0: Got like a like like a like the yellow thing that people drive and when I used to pick balls up at the City Park drive me. speaker-1: Yeah, so so they'll they'll they'll create this little like stand, you know, it's like a little ⁓ you know, ⁓ what do you wanna call it? Just like a platform, right? Okay. And and they can shape it however they want, right? Now most of the time if they're trying to do it quickly, you know, they have to move more dirt to make it speaker-0: Well building the course, the tractor when they were building the course. Okay. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it's a thing called the tractor. Yeah. So the tractor they can they can they they can move the gr the the dirt around, right? speaker-0: Used the mules used to do it, right? And the donkeys. speaker-1: They're there the who whoever did it or who you know, however they did it, they can move it. They can move dirt, right? Right. And so a lot of times they're gonna, you know, build little humps so that you know that the water doesn't go too much into a bunker, or maybe they do. Sometimes they let it go into a bunker. And and so, you know, you'll see b both coming out of a bunker, you'll see like if if the bunker's here and you're hitting that way. Yep. You'll see this sometimes. Sometimes you'll see a little bit of that, and then you'll see this, right? So You know, they they can move dirt around. Now what what the challenge I think happens when you have a big big hillside that's near you or something that kind of gets your mind seeing, like, okay, there's that, and then they build something against that. That that's really hard to do because speaker-0: First screen at Pebble Beach. speaker-1: Yeah. So they'll build it against it. And so now now you're like, okay, now where where am I at? So you your your mind is seeing this foremost. And then you got this. And then you might have it going a little bit like this into the mountain, but it's still going this way. So that's the challenge. Then I think that's where aim point, I think that's where it can excel if you practice enough because then you go, ⁓ yeah, even though it looks to my eye, you know, it's kind like those ⁓ illusion ⁓ rides or or things that That you go to not spray farms and you know the water's going up instead of down. So they they can go they can trick your eye. So so you know it takes takes a while to be able to to get past all that. I mean even just on a certain surface, you could be standing and the ball's above your feet, right? And so your your brain is going, This goes left, but two feet or three feet into the butt, it it changes, right? There's like a ⁓ inflection point, it goes the other way, right? So so speaker-0: They're trick tricking your eyes. speaker-1: That's the challenge to to r green reading is to work out all those things. And it's not that easy to do. And even tour players and their caddies get fooled, right? And that that's what they make their living doing, right? So I think when you're practicing, you're getting a a digital level, even if you don't go crazy with it and put up your fingers and, you know, straddle the line. speaker-0: There's a lot of them on the practice putting green at the US Open. A lot of digital levels. speaker-1: Yeah, and they and they practice that a lot. Like Phil Kenyon, I know he goes out and he'll map out one, two, three, and four percent. And guys will stand there and they'll they'll calibrate their feet and their eyes and their head or whatever to to be able to recognize which is which, right? So that there there's some value to that for sure. But I think, you know, if you practice enough, some people don't like the idea of that because people are straddling the line and you know, they're they're walking off the pace, the paces of the putts, some of them. they'll get behind and they'll put their coin or their ball down and it doesn't look right. And so it's you know th there there's a little bit of a knock against aim point for you know non-professionals because it takes a long time to do for some people. But I think if you practice with some some semblance of aim point when you're when you're just practicing on the putting green. And then when you go to putt, you have a a ⁓ better instinct for like looking at an in an area and you go, I'm gonna start it here. By the time it gets speaker-0: this foot feel more or less. Yeah. And the tour players have to as well. speaker-1: Yeah, so I had this ⁓ Chinese kid yesterday came for his first session with me. We did both ball hitting and putting and went on the green. He was an aim point kid, right? And so I asked him, just use your eyes, because he's done enough of this aim point where he's pretty good with his feet, but ⁓ he's really good with his feet. But I said, What do you think this one is? He goes, ⁓ probably just under one, point eight. And like he'd be like point six or point seven, which is n all almost the same, right? So if you practice it enough, you can get pretty good even with your eyes. Even with your eyes, if you if you've done it enough. speaker-0: Well still standing there. So you even if you're not thinking of your feet, you're not doing the perfect aim point stance and all that y you're standing or s or squatting. If you're in the pot, you might be in a catcher stance. You're still feeling the feet. speaker-1: Always. speaker-0: But it's better barefoot. When I was a kid, I'd take my shoes off and make everything. That had to be what was going on. My stroke didn't get better because I was barefoot. Putter was longer. speaker-1: Yes. So so I think that w if it there's value to people having a digital level, even if they don't want to go through the rigmarole of, you know, straddling the line two or three places on a forty footer. They just know, hey, this this thing's basically a two or it's basically some are going toward four. They play the higher number. speaker-0: For the f for the folks listening, the percent of the slope. speaker-1: Yeah. So when you get a digital level, make sure that you're not on degrees for to do the ⁓ this this work. You put it on percent. Like if you had a hundred percent on a test. It's usually one one, two, three, or four percent typically. You can find some areas of the green that might be five or six, but they're never gonna pin a hole like near that. I I've I actually I've seen that where people accidentally do it. speaker-0: trying to be goofy, ⁓ you know, Greens Keeper Revenge Day or whatever. speaker-1: Yeah ⁓ yeah, yeah. So so there's value to it. And and like I didn't see Wyndham, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I I didn't watch him play during the tournament 'cause you know, he he was in a different group than Jake, so I was following Jake. speaker-0: I watched them on T V on the weekend. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. But I don't really see him straddling straddling the line or putting his fingers up, right? He's just going with God, which just, you know, hitting enough putts where, you know, you've experienced that look and that feel and you just know where to hit it, right? And then in the old days before aim point or any of the other ⁓ systems, I think Vector was probably preceded aim point. Yeah, people just do that. You know, Ben Crenshaw would just look at the putt and you go hit this thing a million times and just go about right there with the speed it goes in, right? So I think that people can get really good at doing it that way, but I think it helps to use, you know, some something. Like I I I recommend to people if you're not going to get a level, you don't want to do any of that, get an aiming stick, aim this aiming stick where you think you need to hit the putt to make the putt. And I usually recommend that they put the aiming stick on the high side. So right to left for a right hander, the ball would be nearer the person, the stick would be farther away. So that's the the stick is on the high side. speaker-0: You can't cheat your and putt it up the hill more. speaker-1: Right. So it's gonna it's gonna ⁓ reveal whether you underplayed the brake and you pushed it up the hill, or vice versa. You have the ball on the other side of the stick, you know, your feet are closer to the stick on a left to right and you do that. So you just keep moving it until you make it. And then afterwards you look from behind what it looks like, you go to the other side of the hole, you see what that looks like, and bam, your brain starts taking pictures of that. And it's just gonna give you a better instantaneous like feeling, like a instinctual feeling of like I gotta be this. This high up the hill if I'm gonna hit it at that speed. So that's one way you can do I c I call that Zen point, just kiddingly. Because you're just like using using your own device to you know, your brain your to do that, right? But you know, some of the guys that do aim point are really good at it. So I'm not I'm not dissing it at all. ⁓ but it's not for everybody. Not for everybody. Some people they get real tied up and they're just like it's just too ⁓ you know, and their their stroke is even look like real stiff and you know, they start guiding the putt. So, you know, just it's it's you you You know, if if you have a coach, you know, you you and your coach can, you know, work out those details. Like, ⁓ aim point might not be for you, but you could do what I just recommended instead. speaker-0: So to me, right, you know, the three kinds of grass is predominant, right? You got you got the Bermuda grasses, especially the older ones, right? That had a lot of grain. So not not picking on any point, but they always said grain doesn't matter. Well, they never put it on common bermuda. Let me just tell you. So you got Bermuda grasses, you know, historical and the current ones, which are thoroughly different and better. Then you've got Poe, Anna, right? I know that's right way to say it. Don't don't at me. And then Bentgrass. So when you were coming up, John, did you get to put on decent amount of bent or every everything, everywhere you played was all Poe? speaker-1: It was pretty much all Poe. And when you got to Bent, you're like, Well, this is different, right? speaker-0: So where was the first place you put it on Bent? speaker-1: I believe it was Valencia Country Club. Up near Magic Mountain. And yeah. So it's it's above L. speaker-0: Where Greg McCatton was for a while. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. So they had it for a while, but you know, eventually out here the you know, people come in with their spikes and they have po on their spikes and po invades. Yeah. So it's it's it takes a lot of ⁓ work, a lot of maintenance to keep the po out. And at some point people just you know the the they don't fight City Hall. Just okay, that's what it is. speaker-0: Now what's interesting about about th that first experience with Poana, whatever the right word is that's called. speaker-1: ⁓ what's you're talking about points your experience with point? speaker-0: My experience with Poe at Pebble, right? So I I'm this boy from the South. I don't know where to drive it on the first hole, drive it through the fairway. I gotta kinda punch out. I hit a perfect little wedge shot up there. And I've got the theoretical easiest putt to make if you don't know how to read greens with your feet and you've never played on the side of a mountain that's all going toward the ocean. I'm behind the hole about five feet. And I know that the green is sloped into the hill. I'm not a dummy at this point. I played a little bit of tournament golf. And the hill where the houses are is going toward the ocean that I can sort of see where the ocean is. So I'm going, the putt has to have a lot of at this point left influence. The ocean was to my left. The hill to my right is going toward the ocean. And just a little teeny weeny bit of into the hill. So I went right edge, right? I'm hit it at the right edge. The ball almost hit me in the feet. It's like corkscrewed, like it almost came back toward me. And now I'm completely confused because the next butt looks downhill, but I know it's it's probably uphill. But I I I can't kill it because I can't believe how much the first putt. So the point is I three putt I I missed a little bitty eagle putt the next hole. It took a while, I I want to say that day to not be like putting and letting go of the putter as soon as I hit it. So when people go on these golf trips, you know, everybody that's the big thing that didn't exist 40 years ago, but now all the, you know, the the bro trips. I'm sure there's some gals that do the gal. Trips too, not to be, you know, sexist or anything. I understand. People go on golf trips now with their buddies, girls and guys, and then they they play golf courses in general that they've never played before. And I'm telling you, if you've never put it on Poe, you deserve you, you know, if you can swing it, get out there early or you know, play another little course in the area. Like if you go into Monterey, you can play Pacific Grove Municipal. for a hundred and twenty dollars or whatever it is now, I remember when it was like twenty dollars. And you you're you're you'll probably have a better experience at ⁓ you know, a place that has po Poe like Pebble, a lot of po you know, I'm not the do how many times did you play Pebble over the years? speaker-1: I only played it once. ⁓ that's it. speaker-0: See, you're so much closer to me, but not that close. Like if you drove there from the studio right there, how long? Six, seven? speaker-1: Six seven. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Approximate. Yeah. Yeah. Right around there. speaker-0: What so when when did you play it? What what year? Ooh. speaker-1: Let's say ish ch just prior to ninety. I would say let's call it eighty eighty eight. speaker-0: So you you played around the time I I played my second round out there with Tom Bartlett in eighty eight before the big sale and then the big green renovation that they did before the, you know, Tiger US Open in two thousand and There there seemed to me, because I played it before and after, there seemed to be way less influence, like ocean influence. I know that's just the slope. Like they they found a way in the subsurface to kind of take some of the some of that out. I don't know how they did that, but they did it. I'm sure the surface is different, the subsurface is different. But when you When you played Pebble, it was put putting wise about like putting, you know, in the area you were, you know, playing golf in, which is Southern Cal. speaker-1: Yeah, I didn't have the same experience that you did. I was I was ⁓ fairly prepared for it. Cause you know, the courses around ⁓ this area, you know, we have Hacienda Country Club, yeah, ⁓ other courses that that have hills around them and you know, you get all that trickery that that nature provides. So i I d I wasn't baffled by that, but the the only thing that baffled me is the day that I played, it poured. It was it was it was cold and it was blowing and it was wet. And then it was in the day before I went and I played Pasa Tiempo and it was perfect. And I was scheduled to play Pebble the day that I played Pasa Tiempo. So I so I missed missed a perfect day at Pebble by one day. But Pasa Tiempo was great too. You know, so if you're if you're think playing on a golf trip, ⁓ you know, and you're and you're gonna go play, you know, Pebble Spy Glass, you know, Poppy Hills, whatever, you gotta make sure you get Pasa Tiempo in there 'cause it's ⁓ it's speaker-0: So the last course, it was the last course b before Augusta that McKenzie, Alcla McKenzie, was the the architect. And Bobby Jones interviewed him while he was building that golf course and said, I like the green. This this is it might be a wives tale, but you know, I like the greens, but I not quite as severe. So if you're if you're going to Pasa Tiempo. You're gonna see Augusta Slopes times, you know, point an extra 20, 30 percent, because they're they're severe enough that when I took three of my junior golfers out there in ninety four or five, right? I had three dozen golf balls of what just came out. So just imagine that era. You know, it's not the pro v1 era, it's like the new titleist professional or the tour prestige or whatever. had it was the first and I bought three dozen of them from the titles rep and t to use, you know. I was never a titles ball guy, but I wanted to try this thing. And I had them in my ⁓ you know, club glove or whatever the of the day, maybe club glove wasn't even out yet, but you know, travel bag. And before we went out there, I had all the three three boys who were all good putters. Better part is it be. I I brought him over to the bank and I said, CD, ⁓ ooh, let's get him. I didn't just came in. Here's the deal: anybody plays 18 holes without a three-putt, you get the three dozen balls. And if more than one of you do it, I will gladly order another three dozen and give it to you. Fourth hole, they were all out. Fourth hole. They they just It's just hard to believe when you're going from Bermuda flat to like super slow. It's not like pebble. You're not missing because you're getting eye tricked. There's there's a lot less eye trickery. There's a slope that's this big, and an elephant would roll down the slope, and there's two elephants buried underneath the slope. It's going right, folks. It's a hill is on your left. It's just adjusting to that. Do you did you find John when you putted on Bent for the first time that it threw you off speed wise. Not that much faster and sometimes not as fast. speaker-1: No. Yeah, it was it was the only thing is the the the ball just rolled so pure. I was like, man, this is nice. And e even though back in those days, you know, I played ⁓ some of the public courses, a lot of the public courses we didn't belong to a private club. But Hacienda had really good Poe Greens, but we'd play a place called La Marada. It was pretty like talk about this. It was and you know, as a kid you just you I was just happy to be out there playing. So Every once that this once in a while this got me in the hole and every once in a while that got me out of the hole. So you know when I when I put it on on bent, it was just a treat. It's just like this thing's this this is different. You could just tell that the ball was, you know, hugging the ground better. the subsurface is tighter, you know, there's a lot of things. Chipping to it was different. You know, it was it was a little bit challenging for chipping because the ball wouldn't, you know, stick as quick as quickly. But it was it was a treat, you know. I just imagine that the the tour pros were probably playing on this a lot more often than I did. And so it was a treat in that speaker-0: No doubt about that. Yeah. What with people, you know, the the the historically the fastest screens in the world are Oakmont and their Poe. Like a lot of that, you know, Kevin Shields lives in that area, one of our buddies in the golf business, really good player. And student of mine, his you know, when I've gone, you know, I used to go teach there once a year, you know, in the in the in the Manzella Tour stop days of 15, 20 years ago. We would play and we would generally play a Just a random golf course, you know, I never heard of, and just a little course. And all of those greens would be like 12 on the stemp, right? So this was my general, this is my general ⁓ on on the grasses back in the day when I putted on them all for the first time. Bermuda, let's just say not common Bermuda, but like 328 was prevalent on putting greens. You would you would put the ball. And it would have a certain amount of speed, a decent amount of speed. And then when it ran out of that speed, it would roll a little bitty bit and stop. And you had that same putt on Poe, you'd have to, it would be faster overall. So you'd have to hit the putt easier and it would be going faster while it was traveling than Bermuda, because it wasn't gonna stop as soon. But it would stop Poe to me as a Bermuda kid. Rolled and rolled out. pretty consistently. The first time and the first several times that I putted on Bent, I I felt like the ball rolled slower than Poe and just didn't stop. Just it rolled and then you're waiting for it to stop and it just kept rolling. So it it I don't know how accurate that is, but that does that sound, you know, from a Bermuda kid to a a Poe kid. Does that even sound remote do I have that like remotely correct? speaker-1: You p knowing you you probably do, but to me, I I didn't really think of it that way. Didn't strike me that way. You know, I just hit the putt and after after a few holes you just go, Okay, that's what it does. So I didn't like stop and think, Okay, this thing keeps rolling. I think I probably enjoyed that it kept ro rolling, but I I can't really tell speaker-0: I love fast screens because I'm a nervous little putter and if I can just make a little bitty stroke and get the ball started, it's it's it's it's a lot better. Okay, so enough of that segment. So here's it here's an interesting one observation. You know, one being at the US Open, I don't go to that many tour events anymore, so you you get to see what everybody's putting with, and then you saw what the winner putted with and and There's been some talk of Jordan Spieth trying a lab putter, right? I don't see the adoption of the zero torque putters. Not just the lab, but every every company started copying it, right? So they all have one, Scotty Cameron, everybody but Ping has a low torque, you know, advertises zero, but there's no such thing as zero. So it's low torque putters, super low torque putters. You're out on tour with Jake, you know, not all the time, but from time to time. Is this is this a decent observation? It's just not it's not going that way on tour, or is that my imagination? speaker-1: It it was going that way for a little while and then it's kind of going a little bit away from that. So the ones that remain, I you know, can't remember them all off the top of my head, but I've seen David Lipskey using it still, JJ Spawn still using it. ⁓ there were a couple of guys that were qualifiers that I saw using it. But you know, I saw more spiders, you know, tailor-made spiders, more ⁓ Odyssey Fang mallets that like ⁓ with Sam Burns uses. And other other Odyssey players, ⁓ you know, Xander uses ⁓ a fang putter with an answer arm, right? So you you see a little bit more of that or a lot more of that. That's the the prevalent ⁓ choice of the tour pros. Mallets that either have ⁓ like an answer arm or short slant neck, like what McElroy uses, what ⁓ what's the guy's name? Jacob Bridgeman, the guy that I think he's number one or two in putting. But you see a lot a lot of that, like the spiders are prevalent, Odyssey's. And then now I'm sure more and more guys are gonna use that ping after Wyndham did what he did. ⁓ for sure. speaker-0: They're at least gonna try it, sure. Like I haven't putted with it any place but in a pro shop, but it feels good. It doesn't here's the thing it's a face based, it looks like it might be a zero torque putter, it's not, and it has a higher moi, which zero torque putters have not really a high moi, I don't think, and and almost by design, and so but it doesn't feel face bound. Like if you give me a two-ball face balance two-ball and I putt three putts with it and then I get that ping putter, the Scottsdale Tech, I don't know. I wish I knew what the model. Alley blue, Alley Blue, right? With the Freddie Haas dot on the front. speaker-1: I think it's Allie Blue or something. Guess what? There's gonna be a song about that one too. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, but but what I'm saying is th it doesn't feel as face balanced when I'm punting with it. Is it I mean, you've had a couple of putts, is that speaker-1: Totally, totally. When I when I putt with a face balance putter, I've got to put a shin garter on my left shin. It's just gonna go straight left. I don't know exactly what it is, but it it just does, right? So the alley, don't have that problem with it. It's ⁓ it's it the only thing that it would take me a little bit of a ⁓ little bit of a while to adjust to is the insert is some kind of polymer, I guess, because when you hit when you hit the putt, it's very silent and it's real, real muted sounding. It's like that. So I'm used to metal that has a little bit different resonance. That would be the only adjustment I'd have to make. But it's it's it's a really, really good putter. You know, ping ping's been making putters for a long time and they they kind of they they they ⁓ and they caused the wave of making putters easier to use with the answer to start and you know and just on and on. So you know they they were the ones that got the ball rolling. The no no pun intended in in, you know, making putters, you know, have some tech to it. I remember when I was a kid. When I first started Caddy, and when people show up with ping answers, people go, Look at that thing, right? Now you look at a ping answer, it's like super common and normal, right? It's super orthodox. Now you get these, you know, waffle iron labs that kind of look like a big giant mushroom or something like that. And someday those will probably look normal too. Now I'd say that the the the the mallet that's that looks like a spider or those fangs, those are those are the ones that most people use. And I and even that that tech. ⁓ putter. It's it's it's not all that odd looking. It look to me it looks pretty traditional at this point, right? If I'd seen that thing twenty years ago, I'd have thought it would have been odd, but you know, it's pretty normal looking. And it looks and it looks nice. Looks nice. They did they did a really good job with it. Now, you know they signed ⁓ Wyndham Clark, right? speaker-0: No, I didn't know that. speaker-1: Yeah, so Wyndham Clark signed for a putter only deal with Ping. Yeah, so so ⁓ you know I talk a little bit with one of the one of the Ping guys, not leave his name out, but yeah, ⁓ I said, you know, hey, he even gave you guys ⁓ a little acknowledgement. And he goes, He should. We paid we we we signed him up the Wednesday before the tournament. So he's he's a Yeah, ⁓ yeah, that was good timing because you know he that guy is right now, he's putting better than anybody by by a long shot, not even close. speaker-0: How about speaker-1: And you know, I don't know how much it has to do with the putter. I mean, he's good at golf. So I mean so listeners, if you have your inkling to go out and try it, it's a really, really good putter, but I'm pretty sure you're not gonna putt Wayne Clark. speaker-0: So on the zero t so this is my experience with with the we'll call ⁓ zero torque. speaker-1: Even Dr. Nesburn. speaker-0: Doctor Nesbitt had a lab in his hand and he goes very low, but still some torque, right? Okay. So, but everybody knows when you talk zero torque, it's category. Okay. Yes. So the first time I ever had the putter in my hand, the the might have not even been a two point one directed force. It was not lab golf, you know, that I met ⁓ Bill Pressey at the PGA show on the putting green where you gave Dick Tominsky a lesson. By the way, Nick. By the time this show airs, ⁓ I I don't want to say what what may have may have happened in a good way, because I don't want to reverse jinx them. But the the famous practice putting green at the current setup of the PGA show is is a pretty, it's right as soon as you walk in on the left hand side, if you're gonna start walking the show and everybody walks over it, through it, around it, or hits a putt on it. If you've ever been to the PGA show, you you you know what I'm talking about. And Bill had the putter, the early putter, and I put it with and I knew right away. He didn't tell me what it was. I just wanted to see it, saw him standing there, very approachable, nice guy. And I put it with it, and something was like immediately different, immediately. For whatever unknown reason, and I could spend 10 minutes talking about it, and we don't have the 10 on this show to talk about it. I still haven't had one in my bag, even though Bill was gonna drive through New Orleans once, fit me, and I would surely have one by now, but then it was weather, it was a couple years ago. So but I every new model I haven't putt that version yet or whatever, V V Z N, which you know kind of the latest ⁓ kind of hollow in the middle and more of a normal shape. But every all the other ones I've I've I've at least hit a putt with the link one, two, and threes and all of this. And I like it. But I I I don't know how it would work out on the golf course. But here's my zero torque. Interesting story that you can at your expertise can explain this to everybody. So when Michael Jacobs won his national award with the PGA, I, me and Steve Elkington and a bunch of other Mike friends all went to be the, you know, for for Mike and sit at the Bane table with him and all that kind of stuff. So anyway. I got into Dallas a little early, North Dallas. Frisco is north north Dallas. And I had Groc, the AI bot from X, plot me out a day of going from here to there to here to there, golf shops and putting places and all this kind stuff. And I went to the Art Sellinger, who was the world long drive champion twice. I played with him in an exhibition in nineteen eighty seven. ⁓ played a couple of rounds of golf with him. ⁓ good guy. He has a couple stores, John, that that ⁓ you know, repair clubs and all. Anyway, so they got all these putters. I'm just fondling clubs. And they had about eight different companies, zero torque putters. And I putted a couple putts at least, maybe one with a couple of them because it felt terrible. But so I putted for let's say 15 minutes with. Nine different zero torque putters. Maybe, maybe more than that, because like some companies had two or three, right? Like ⁓ Odyssey, the Red Buns, you know, and and and the obviously labs got down like five or six models, but then whatever that was, ⁓ there was about three or four of them. And then I picked up some other putter that that just looked good to me. And the putter wobbled around in my hand like I couldn't even believe it. I went, This is the greatest. advertisement for for these low torque putters of all time. It's just putter putt. So what what what did I what was that crazy sensation that I had that all of a sudden, I mean I was kind of getting used to the way they all felt. Some of them felt better, some of them felt worse. But then I took this regular putter, it was a mallet like spider looking, it wobbled in my hand like it had it had Mexican jumping beans in there. What what what was that all about? speaker-1: Well, with that zero torque putter, the the shaft's not only in the center of ⁓ grav center of gravity, the CG front and back, like you know, north and south, it's east and west. So that's gonna give it a unique balance the way that it moves. And you know, some people say that you can actually rotate that just as much as or more than any other putter. So I think that the the I think they call it the revealer. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't actually touch the putter, but putter's touching the top of the revealer in the shaft. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So you know, so that thing when you swing it, it doesn't like twist open or you know, close or anything like that. But when human beings holding onto it, you put enough pressure where you can. So I I don't think that that's the the value in it. But it definitely every putter that has toe hang, no toe hang, face up, face down, whatever, they're all gonna give you a different sensation to your brain. So I I don't know that it's you know something that's like you ⁓ you can't twist this thing so it feels great. It just feels like it feels because of those two things that I talked about. Now when it comes, like I said, you c you can twist it around all you want. If you hit it heel or toe, it's still gonna deflect open. ⁓ You'd have to have something as heavy as a refrigerator for it to not open. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yes. So you're just you're just sensing that it's unique balance. And you know, for you, for some reason, that lit you up and it was good. Other people, they they try that and it doesn't feel good at all, right? So that's that's the part about picking a putter that, you know, allows you to, in my mind, if you can return the putt. putter back to square or square-ish and it fits ⁓ matches your path. That's what we want. So when we're gonna putter fit and say if I had somebody with the lab and they tried a, I don't know, like an answer type putter or at least ⁓ maybe a spider that has an answer arm, right? Yep. You're gonna some people are gonna answer if you know arrive at impact better with the spider. Some people are gonna arrive back better with the lab. So it's you know just That's the way I look at it. And just yeah, every putter has its own unique feel. And that that's a unique feel that just somehow felt good to you. That's the only way I can really explain that. But it isn't like there's a physical property that makes it better in my mind. speaker-0: ⁓ I ⁓ it wasn't that it was better or worse. It was that whatever I had to do to swing these zero torque putters, and I took I think it was like a spider, but it wasn't the tailor made spider. You know, it had a you know forty-five degree hang, if you want, you know, like an answer. It it did its it like I was the I became the revealer and then it did its little dance and I didn't like the way it felt. Tried it on the golf. Yeah, I could feel the torque easily. So on the subject of putters in our little segment, what do what do you have for us over there today on the ⁓ on the shelf? On the speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I I I forgot to bring in ⁓ you got an auto speaker-0: An Arnold original Arnold Palmer over there on the other side? speaker-1: ⁓ no, I do not, but I have a Cameron ⁓ Trillium, this the Tiger one first master. I got one of those. Here's a kind of a funky Mike Hebron design with clay long. It kind of has a higher center of gravity. Right. Answer style putter. Right. Pretty cool. And then ⁓ speaker-0: What about on the other side? I see some blades. I mean real blades. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Okay, so here's a eighty eight ⁓ two. Pretty nice one. Yeah, that one's it's ⁓ pretty heavy too. It's three nineteen grams for an eighty ⁓ two, that's kinda heavy. I've got ⁓ Cameron ⁓ bullseye. Yep. Pretty nice. Yeah. speaker-0: Right. Classic John Ruder Jr. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. I I have ⁓ actual John Ruderover on the putting green over to my left. Here is a answer. ⁓ it's kind of like a Scottsdale, but it was a Phoenix. speaker-0: Yeah, the Phoenix Scottsdale. David Toms got his car stolen and he had one of those putters in there. Dale had with the Phoenix speaker-1: Yeah, they call them Daleheads. Yeah. The Karsten Karsten Company Dalehead. That's what Sevy used. Sevy was my guy. Love that. And then here is ⁓ an Odyssey White Hot Number Eight. This these are really good putters. Yeah, how about that? So Eggelson buy. So I was buying I was buying these on eBay during COVID and I was paying, ⁓ I think I was paying fifty to sixty dollars for them. And I'd spruce them up and make them look like a million dollars and sell them for two hundred dollars. It's like speaker-0: Have you ever heard this story that so the the the those eighty-eight ⁓ twos and and and then then the eighty eight thirteen that has a line on them? The reason that those you notice that none of these other putters or the serial number of the putter? And the reason why there's a Wilson 8802 and there's not a ping 375 or or a titalist 98394 is because there was a putter called the Designed by Arnold Palmer, when Arnold Palmer was still with Wilson and it became a fairly popular putter on the market. And then Palmer left to start his own company, the Arnold Palmer Golf Company. And they couldn't call it the Arnold Palmer anymore. So they just went, well, everybody knows what number to order. Let's just call it that. Okay, so that's not the story I'm checking on. That's a fact. Here's the story I I want to know as a putter builder and and of and of some repute, like you are. I heard he took a IMG five and just shaved the toe and the heel off of it. So that was a McGregor putter, right? That was similar, heel shafted, but much more rectangular in the back, where that's more like a half moon. Does that Folklore, or is that probably true? speaker-1: Well, I've heard this the same story, but unfortunately I didn't ask Palmer if that story were was true. I should have, should've, should've, should have, but you know, hindsight's twenty twenty. But I've heard it enough where I'm I'm gonna buy that one. speaker-0: Right. I mean if you took a if you took a a a a big headed that's probably what he did, right? He grind he he grind he he he thought, well, let me take some, you know, I don't know, it was different shape and it and it worked out really good. Why do you think that that putter historically seems to have been a little bit better putter than the putter that it was made off of, literally, with speaker-1: I would say 'cause IMG fives weren't that heavy. Some of ⁓ were. I I have some that were pretty heavy, but they're they're a little bit lighter. So, you know, but by the time you you ground some off, it, you know, probably got too light. So when they remade it, they're e even at the Arnold Palmers, their their headweights generally three ten at the most. Yeah. So I have one and I was toying with putting some tungsten it just to make it a little bit more usable. But, you I'm not gonna mess around with that. But ⁓ You know, Clay Long, he he took ⁓ 8802 and he put a big ⁓ area of he took he took off a bunch of ⁓ material from the bottom. Yeah. Put like the entire from heel to toe with ⁓ tungsten for his brother and he got it up to 350. Wow. It it can be done, but you know, a lot of work and like if you're gonna have somebody to do it like him that has the machine shop to do that, a job like that would probably cost three hundred dollars. I'm sure he's gonna have to take he's gonna have to take a couple hours to do that. speaker-0: So so tell me this. Of the of the heel shafted putters like that, w what's a couple of your favorites? Historical heel shafted putters? speaker-1: IMG fives for sure. speaker-0: You ever seen the Tony Penner copy of the IMG file? From the Tony Penner? speaker-1: Real real nice. I I don't I don't think I ever had one of those, but I know that was one of your favorites, but that that that's definitely a good one. Cleveland made ⁓ like the mallet that was kinda like that that had ⁓ I have one at home. I'll bring that one for another show. But the the it was ⁓ I don't know, it's about twice as twice as big in girth as as a regular eighty eight or two. Yep. It had an underside that was hollowed out. So it's it kinda had a little bit different ⁓ CG. Yep. That one's pretty good. And then of course I like these Odysseys. The Odyssey, not just that one. There's another one that that looks like an IMG five that has a black face. It's pretty good. Shravino turned me onto that one. speaker-0: What about what about the George Lowe wizard? Six. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. I'm remiss to not rem Yeah. ⁓ I had I had one when I was with Byron. His widow has it somewhere. I'm not gonna ask for it back, but speaker-0: Here's the interesting thing about that one. So when I worked for Stan Stop at Pro Tech Golf, we had classic clubs. That's half the business we had. And we never really had any originals. Right. At the time, Ram had bought Bristol and Sportsman, the two names that the original George Loputter that Nicholas won, I don't know, 14 majors with. They they bought the names and they did recreations. And then all kind of people did recreations. I don't know if if you and and and ⁓ and and Byron ever ever did one, but Nicholas, who played in New Orleans every year, putted with you know an original, and he put the putter up against his bag when he he got off the sixth screen. They're playing number seven. I was right up against the rope and I could have just grabbed the putter with my hand. That's how close the bag and the putter was. And all I had to do was lean to my right and get on my tippy toes, and I got the player view of it. Right. This is at the time I'm working for Stan, and we've got at least five George Lowe 600 Wizard Sportsman 600 Wizard redoes. You know, whatever the right word is, attempted duplicates. They were all so much smaller, heel to toe, than Nicholas's actual putter. I know if you've ever seen one of those and though, like the Wilson George Lowe recreation was little bitty from heel to toe. Nicholas's putter wasn't that little. Why, A, ⁓ why do you think that is? A. And B, why does this, how can this happen? Like when When when when ⁓ the Arnold Palmer company made the Arnold Palmer and they did the original, remember the original in the box with the leather grip? That putter head does not look like the Wilson putter. It's a good putter. I puttered college golf with it a little bit, but why when these people are doing these recreations, do they miss so bad? Are the people doing them have bad eyes or is just harder than you think? speaker-1: Well, when they were doing it, they didn't have the technology that they do now. So like in today's world, they can scan whatever it is and just nail it. I mean, just nail it. So that would be the the answer that I'd give to that question is they just didn't have the technology and so they're doing things by hand. And so the guy was whoever it was, you know, making the tool just made it as close as they could and that's what it was. So, you know, if if they like said if you if you had one of those somewhere and you wanted to recreate it, you could make it Pretty much spot on like it. Just the material would probably be slightly different. The steels were not exactly the same, but by and large it would play the same. You can you can really really duplicate speaker-0: Just it just they they couldn't really they were doing their best and they just couldn't. speaker-1: It it is yeah. Like somebody tried to recreate the Mona Lisa by hand. speaker-0: Yeah, it would it would probably look might look like a nice looking chick, but it wouldn't be the chick. If it was somebody said it was a self portrait and with with long hair, who knows? Okay. Last question on these putters that we're we're talking about just now. Infamously or famously, the designed by Arnold Palmer and their and the ⁓ eighty ⁓ two and thirteens in that era, the early sixties era, had that speaker-1: Right, exactly. speaker-0: Light speed, is that the right name of the shaft? Head speed shaft. And Ben Crenshaw once tapped it on the ground. His famous little Ben version of this, right? Not his, it was it was an original, but he he called his putter Little Ben. And he it cracked down the middle of the shaft, and he had some silversmith from like foreign country who was the world's greatest, like silver the shaft back together. And then he putted with that for a long time. speaker-1: Head head speed. speaker-0: How important historically to the IMGs, the George Lowe, the 8802, 13, Arnold Palmer, all the same putter. And the original, like Scottsdale ping answers, was the sha what everybody has in their brain and then in their hand feel. Like somebody like Lee Trevino, he probably owned white the 8802 styles, he probably owned 700. of those putters and h he could he could put with a real one and a bad copy that looked visually good and he would know it wasn't it. Was it the shaft that was given the unique feel or that's just a myth, mythological. speaker-1: It's it's everything, but the shaft is really, really important. I think on one of the previous ⁓ shows that we recorded, I told the story about ⁓ Gabe Brewer and hitting a putt with the long putter and he the hit, you go to the hit. I'm what are you talking about? The hit. So we when you when you putt with those putters, the shafts because the club heads were a little bit lighter or a lot lighter, the the shafts had a little bit more play in them. So when you when you stroke them, you could kind of feel the barely. You could feel the the shaft. like loading and unloading. And so I think that was the the magic of those putters. Even Brad Faxon, if you go on YouTube, he talks about having grown up using a bullseye putter because he you know lived in, I don't know, Maine or someplace like that. And bullseyes were prevalent in that day anyway. But ⁓ the bullseye tideless company was nearby where where he grew up and everybody had a bullseye, right? And so you had those kind of skinnier shafts toward the bottom with the flutes and all that. Yep. And you'd feel that little kick. And so He reckons that a lot of people that grow up in the modern area that the era that aren't like good golfers, the ones that are just recreational players that don't putt well, they never had that experience in the feel feeling the shaft load and unload. So I think that's the magic with that. So I even saw at the US Open I saw Ricky Fowler warming up with a bullseye. Yes. I said he I said he must have heard the song. He said they that you know brought him message. speaker-0: And speaking of the song, folks, another fun day here on Putting is Fun. We can do this for a long time and we intend to. See ya soon, Johnny. speaker-1: For John Ruder Straight shooter. Okay, to respect the three footer. Respect the three footer. Bring out your town pots will surely be fast. But butt butt. It's just like it seems you can drift away and chill in a dream. But with your bros. Most importantly, putting is fun. ⁓ speaker-0: Very important. Don't pick him up. Ding.