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What I've Learnt - Collette Dinningan · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well her style is one of simple yet sophisticated beauty.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bellissima, an Australian-Italian affair, takes you into Colette's world of beauty, interiors, gardens, food, friends, curiosities, art, and travel in Italy and Australia.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It shows us Colette's remarkable eye for detail, vignettes, texture, and colour.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: She shares her design inspiration and reveals stunning photos never before published of her homes in Bowrill and Darling Point, along with a Rome apartment and holiday house in Julia.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Colette and her photographer Earl Carter travelled the length of Italy from Naples to Nichuran to capture the essence of what inspires Colette that she then brings home to Australia the Great Southern Light.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which doesn't just take us into her own private world, but also those of her friends such as Mimi's Torrison in Shurin, Neil Perry in Sydney, and Louise Olsen and Luke Skiaveris in this country, New South Wales, where they share their recipes and art.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I am so thrilled to have the wonderful Colette Dinnegan joining me at the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Colette.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and thank you for having me.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before we get to the book and the beautiful photos and the beautiful recipes, let's just talk a little bit about how you grew up.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I find it quite interesting how people's backgrounds define or certainly shape their journey.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you describe how your dad built a yacht in the yard in Africa where you lived, and you spent and spent three years sailing around the world with him as a family.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Our lives growing up were different to most people's, you say.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, you say your husband, Bradley, refers to your dad as the best pirate.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: How did your upbringing impact you and shape who you are today?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think, you know, as children, and and I often get asked this, as children, you just do what your parents do, don't you?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so true.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing, you know, and that's what scares me sometimes because you can live in a world of creative bohemia or you live in an abusive family and children accept it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's on either side, it's that's dramatically different, but it can be incredibly, you know, amazing and fulfilling, but very disturbing.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I think you know, my parents definitely were the former creative bohemians, and you know, obviously, my father was a he was a great sailor, he was Irish, he met my mother in South Africa at a yacht club.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he his dream was to build his own yacht and live in either Canada or I think Canada was the the country of choice, but we ended up in New Zealand.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, they felt very comfortable sailing, I guess, my dad as the captain and head of the yacht, um, to around the world.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And my dad had done it several times before, so he kind of knew what was ahead, I guess.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I what we did learn in that voyage, you know, you really had to, when discipline was key, you can't argue with someone telling you what to do because if you fell off the yacht, you were kind of gone, really, and especially if the seas were high.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it also meant that there was a sense of independence and not knowing and a curiosity for what lay ahead and an excitement.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important for children and even adults now to be excited and motivated to do something different in you and not be afraid.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I most definitely that's what it gave us.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: I actually love that because also, as well as being a literal voyage, it was a figurative one in the sense that it taught you about free thinking and and free spiritedness and you know the ability to dream and say, Well, I want to start.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it sounds so sort of esoteric, but it actually, he actually did it, you lived it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he sort of showed you that you can really fulfill your dreams if you want to.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that was imbued?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's so many sayings, dream big.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, you can dream big, and even if you do small, that's okay, but you've got to kind of follow your instincts and you've got to be, I think, motivated to also trust yourself and and and have aspirations and be curious and and want to kind of do things that are different.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you fail, gosh, what's what's there to lose?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's always a backup and there's always something where you can take a different road or a different direction or always go home, you know, it there's always something, it's not at all um lost.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, it's interesting because as you know, as mothers and mature women, I suppose you look back and and and certainly still looking forward, but there's that sense that trying to imbue our children, particularly, you know, at similar ages, from what I understand, that anything's possible if you want it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that you grew up certainly enculturated you to believe that.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it taught you also a sense of independence, as you sort of reference, but also that sense of, I can imagine you're on a boat, you're a young girl, and you have to find ways to occupy yourself and be internal and creative.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that was also part of what you learned, Young?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not so much, because believe it or not, when you're on a yacht and you think the only time you have extra time is when you're become, the rest of the time you're really busy because you're sailing and you're actually working and you're pulling and you know, you're doing knots.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So Dad was sort of getting and asking me to read the compass and do compass points and charting and um you know, fishing, cooking, or helping or doing something, you're very busy because you're moving at a great speed and you know, you're sailing, and and if the wind direction changed or a storm's about to come up, you've got to you know batten down the hatches, so to speak.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to pull the sails and you've got to fold them properly.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: If something's ripped or tore, my mother would have to make it and I would have to probably help, you know, get dinner ready.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or there was always so much to do.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was when we were become that it was kind of okay, what do we do now?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And not moving.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So none of this vision of you know sitting on the ocean reading a book and contemplating poetry.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, that wasn't quite that that's the Mediterranean.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the one we all dream of, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that that's the one that actually not too recently I experienced, which was quite beautiful.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: You you talk about how your dad was very protective and he was always, you know, he knew what the world was like.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, as well as being free-spirited, he also gave you a sense of caution or a sense of preparedness.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Would that be right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I think, you know, maybe he was like most fathers are with their daughters because, you know, as Bradley did call him the last pirate, he traveled the world and he had, you know, his friend Ray Hasler, and they were in Canada and Vancouver and Hawaii, and he knew what was out there.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So for his daughter, he was very cautious about where she might go or travel.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas I think, you know, he was still captivated by education and learning and you know, wanted me to most definitely, I think, probably not do what he did as a parent.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you always feel like you've made your own mistakes.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of you you overlay something on your children, but you know, my children probably like yours, and like I was in my early 20s, I thought I knew everything.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like your parents know, you know, they know nothing, they're so old-fashioned.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear her saying it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true, when you have children, there's a different, there's a different care in the world, and it's you know, I'm only as happy as my children are, to be honest.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And my husband.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing you, I'm very similar, so I relate to that very much.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're also close with your brother Seamus.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, tell me a little bit about that because I'm imagining we both sailed with the family when you were young, and that's a very intimate, there's just the two of you as siblings.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: How did that relationship, I suppose, drive you, support you?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know he worked with your business for a while.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think, you know what, uh when you're in a very confined space, I mean, there's that all sounds wonderful, but there was also a lot of fighting, you know, or very close proximity.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for a boy and a girl very close in age, it was not ideal because there was nowhere to hide to, you know, yeah, you didn't have a bedroom with an ensuite.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um my goodness.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the same time, you know, what we experienced was so different together that it keeps it bonds you, and you know, we were very close to our parents, particularly, you know, our mother, who was very creative and she had she was a very sensitive soul and very caring and kind.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we missed her terribly when I think I was 23 or 24 when she passed away.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that kind of drew us even closer together, having you know, um lost our mother.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, definitely I think when you go through something, it's only retrospective, really, because when when you're in the movement, you never appreciate it as much as, and I guess maybe I don't know, if you're under the stars, maybe you appreciate heaven, you know, but it's kind of when you're doing something and it's in motion, it's never um it's something when you look back and you retrospective, you go, wow, we did that together, we got through.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty, pretty young to lose your mum.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so you really had to carve your own path from the age of 23 is, you know, like I have a 24-year-old daughter, um, and I can imagine that while she's well equipped, and uh certainly, but you know, so young also.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: How did you navigate that?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously you had your brother, but at the end of the day it was your and you you ended up carving a very successful business and working very hard and very diligently and you know, traveling extensively with your work.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: How hard was that?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think your work was what helped you in a way?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I I do know, and it's one thing, you know, if anyone ever loses either of their parents, particularly their mother, you know, I always say it's something that made me grow up overnight.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly you become an adult.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even if you're 30 or 40, it's something that makes you not alone, but you have to grow up and mature and see the world in a different place because you've got no advice of you know, your instinctive mother who just wants to care for you and look after you.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when you break up with a boyfriend or whatever happens in life, there's no one to run to.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it most definitely does.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that I always every milestone I had in my career, I most definitely, especially showing in Paris or my first time to do anything, you know, I knew I would think of my mother because I knew she'd be very proud of me.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when my daughter Estella was born, the first thought that came to my mind was wishing my mother was there.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's you know, having said all of that, too, they are present and there is, you know, when you've got a great connection, they're always around.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, if you'd never know, they probably see more of what you do and you worry about more.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, anything's possible.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, it is interesting though, because you um you then carved yourself an extraordinary career, and you were one of the first Australian designers to really, you're quite trailblazing in the way that you found yourself in Europe and you really put your brand on the global map.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: How frightening was that?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how how exciting was it as well?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it was both.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, a lot of it possibly happened when I look back now because I was rejected on so many fronts in Australia by, you know, banks and about by department stores who didn't want to stock my product.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I it was a challenge that I think sometimes when somebody puts a barrel, you kind of want to prove yours prove them wrong and prove yourself right.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there was probably a little bit of that, but also I'm a hard worker, I'm passionate.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what lay ahead, and conceivably, had I known how difficult it would be, I would have probably it would have been a deterrent.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what youth and vigour has is that ability to think you can do it all, and then you start to realize how hard it is.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um but just definitely there was a lot of that, and and it was you know very disappointing when I did try to borrow money and do business plans and invest a lot of time putting business plans together.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't even really perceived by the bank as an option, and um back in the day, and you know, so it was just a waste of time.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I could have been sewing another couple of something or others to sell.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then you know, I just you start to realize your own ideas and your visions, and you just do the best you possibly can.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do that, you you can't look back and go, I wish I had of, I shouldn't have, or I, you know, I might have, or and that's really all I did.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in a way, maybe it was easier because there wasn't social media and there was it wasn't this kind of thing where everybody wanted, you know, followers and celebrity and fame.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other hand, there was no direct way to communicate to your customer because it took at least three months before your show was in vogue or in the magazine, even if they published it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then your consumer would start to think, oh, who's this new designer?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be months and months in the making, whereas now it's very instant.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think sometimes that sifting process is a very good thing because you kind of really you get rid of things that you can't deal with and you slowly, slowly rise.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas everything sometimes is too fast for the designers or anybody in business, and and they're not able to cope with the problems in the production.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's all always ease good when it's doing well.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: When there's a problem, it's what are the solutions and how do you solve them?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, how do you maintain um a voice in a business, but how do you hear everybody else's?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's so there is so much in a mixing pot of things that I think sometimes is overlooked or you know, not even taken notice of.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So good enough.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good point.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's a very good point.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it feels like um, you know, every five minutes there's something going up in the fashion world.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and to your point, you know, it's very fast, it's very quick, it's very immediate.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, you see these beautiful shows where you can see it almost live, you know, from wherever you are.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of benefits to that social media observation.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: But as you say, what you're reflecting on is does that mean the filtering process or the capacity for people to reflect on their own design, but also the filtering process just generally in social media, it's all just a bit of a blur for a lot of the consumers.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but and also, too, I think what takes away from the excitement of fashion in particular or anything that is say art or a creative process, it's taken quite some time to you know evolve and produce something, is that by the time you actually then get it to retail, the consumer is over it because they've seen it so much and it's not even in the store.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's something I I think always, an element of surprise and an anticipation is key in most businesses and whatever is happening.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's sort of you, you know, sometimes I'm not sure even if I watch Netflix or something.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Have I seen that before?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or have I just seen the trailer so often?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's I totally agree with you.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good point because at the end of the day, we just get it's a sort of a saturation where you're right, the sort of the anti the climax is somewhat, you know, you're sort of like, okay, we're waiting, we're waiting.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's here.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I totally agree with you.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think fashion's really fickle at the moment.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's interesting timing, interesting times, very different to when you started out.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, also too, what I think is what's evolved and what I take note of, and what I used to always try and hear was like kind of landfill was there's so much landfill, and things were so cheap, and there's so much, you know, basically slave labor, and um ultimately it's mostly females employed in the business, and very little respect for a lot of you know people producing landfill.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there's much more awareness of that now.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So people, everyone still loves a bargain, but you know what?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the consumer needs to think about who made that, how much they get paid.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do they have children just like me?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Are they able to feed them or are they paying off some debt that they're being beholden to because they were given a profit?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I so I think in one way that you know there's better communication on those fronts, but on the other hand, um, it's not as exciting because I don't think there's a mystery.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I do also believe that you know, people need to sometimes, it's not necessarily by about buying lots of expensive clothes, it's about projecting your own personality and things you feel confident in.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's right.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a classic laser and a good pair of jeans can still work so well with a nice shirt, and maybe you only need to replace your shirts, or you know, there's there's ways of doing things, and I, you know, have a lot of respect even for celebrities who walk the red carpet or who reinvent.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually, Princess or Queen Mary now of um Denmark, isn't it?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's worn my dresses two or three times.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: She's made them shorter, she's made them longer, reinvented, and I think good on you.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you love something, it's a perfect colour, and you're able to reinvent it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not in the day gone before everyone used to be crucified if you did that.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: You did it twice.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you wore it twice.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um where are you now?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're so you're just um blue mouth.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in barrel.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Barrel, you're in barrel.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're still in barrel.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so interestingly, what you're saying is true, but also from a design perspective, obviously you've got all these new designers, and you've got people like the Rachel Gilberts and the Rebecca's, and you know, all they're all coming out with a lot of if you sort of dressy high-end sequence beaded, but it's different to the bespoke that I recall you doing back in the day where you to have a collet denigrant, beautiful dress, beaded, exceptional French lace.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you were very bespoke and meticulous.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can access a lot of things that uh are available more en masse.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a strange dichotomy, I think.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and a lot of it's made in China, and I guess I know supported that.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um I worked with the artisans in India myself, you know, beating on the floor and doing different um designs and things.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all hand done.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't done by a machine where you pulled a stitch and everything kind of ran off once the sequence ran away with you, um, went away from you, I shouldn't say.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: We did we made everything in Australia and we developed a system of plastic patterns and doing cutting our lace in a way that wasn't made offshore.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And our French Chantilly lace, I'd work with the suppliers who'd make the different laces in the South in Lyon and Calais in France, and I they'd make my own designs sometimes.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I go into the archives and find vintage laces and they'd reproduce and we'd match everything.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the scallet was perfect.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, you're right, everything was bespoke, it was hand-cut, it was handmade, it was hand finished in Australia, and we were in control of the quality and also the fit.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think you know, what I did then, people used to think, oh, your things are so expensive, but they weren't actually, because if you looked at the scale of things compared to imports and how it was handmade, and we numbered all of our dresses, you know, it might be one of five, one of twenty.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like an art piece, yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like a piece of art, you know.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: People still keep them, which is you know, it's it's nice to hear that sort of I had talk yesterday at you know, one of my the one of the book um signings.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many women who would turn up in dresses that could have been from you know, in the shop that arrived yesterday, and there wasn't it wasn't a feeling of it was old-fashioned, it was much more a feeling of was still elegant and people felt confident, and you know, it's quality, and quality goes a long way.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think it's tenable and sustainable still to do that sort of fashion?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not in Australia because it's the cost of um production, production, running a small company, the staff.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I don't disagree with all the employment laws and everything, but you know, it's very difficult because you know, a lot of around our shows and that we required overtime.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to, you know, paid people overtime, but it's very expensive and salaries are high.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: The cost of um freight in particular is very high now since COVID.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's been a huge negative on any business that is based in Australia that relies on importing and exporting.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's just a very different ball game.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I get asked a lot to do it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, I possibly, and I've said this to a lot of people, maybe not to a lot, but if you maybe do, you know, the archive of 10 pieces.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to do it on my own.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want a business partner because I found it very difficult when I was making my instinct, I'd make a lot of decisions, but based on that, you know, but I find it difficult not to have a partner in business where you could kind of bounce ideas off or who had a vested interest to be very honest and you know, rather than have a fan club.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what it's it's a very totally understand?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to that point, what happens to designers is they want to design, they want to create.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what they don't realize, which you've obviously alluded to earlier, is the pressure of the business side is so massive and so at times, you know, oppressive because you're trying to actually be creative at the same time as be so that partnership notion is probably critical to that.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you find the right partner, to just being a bit free to do what you need to do.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Finding the right partner, and that's scary because you see so many businesses that have disasters.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: But you, I mean, I think too, you know, I still hear designers or you might meet an artist going, Oh, don't talk to me, I don't know anything about money.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know what?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: You do don't that's wrong.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: You need to know something about money, you need to learn and have some idea because if you want to commercialize your art and make money from it to support yourself, you need to have some basic understanding of what it costs to produce a dress or what it might cost to make a painting or a canvas and and your time, you know, you might not cost your time, but you need to understand that, you know, the link between commercialism and art.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and you do, you may not know all the details, but I think it's very inappropriate to say when you're trying to sell something to a customer, you know nothing about money.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I because you know how to do it.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you've got to, in a way, your investment is then.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Very clear.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're investing your own time and self and vision and creativity into something, and you need to understand how that translates and what the cost of that is.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: It makes like any business.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, I think the creative, I mean, I'm, you know, I saw you wrote that um, you know, one of your previous books, your memoir, Obsessive Creative, which I love the name.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting to me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think you have to be obsessive to?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've obviously gone into so many different forays in terms of your creativity, but you're very, I remember actually, I think there was a documentary I saw on you, which was about your obsession with detail.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, probably not.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, there's people who are laissez-faire and have no attention to detail at all and who geniuses in some field or another.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: They could be a poet or poet or whatever, but it's just their to write and they have a skill for it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's frustrating that I have this eye for detail.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I do speak to other people who, other artists or you know, in different areas, but they don't admit it as much as I do because I guess it's a lot more vocal and we'll go into a hotel room because don't don't say a thing.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a nice hotel.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing else, don't say anything.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll go, okay, but because don't say anything.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I know what you're gonna say about the bathroom, but don't say anything.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go, okay, it's great.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I so relate to that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's very it's actually it makes your yeah, you can go a bit nuts because you see imperfection, and imperfection can be a good, you know, it's good to have an eye for detail, but can also be paralyzing.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it's common sense, it's like it can be commonsensical, or you need if you don't have it, or you don't have an eye for detail, team up with somebody who does, and then, but then when they think they have, and the person who pretends they do have no idea of like a curtain two inches from the ground is not right, you know.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just don't understand it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the anyway, it's so there's a lot of things, and even in clothing, you know, like I can remember even fashion, proportion is so important, like you can have a long jacket but a short skirt, you can't have half and half that cuts you, you know, or you can have a shorter pant, and like there's so many different variations of things, and I think that's also what makes it the trend, or makes it what it is, or gives it a an attitude.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, it's so important to express your attitude in life.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about negative attitude, I'm talking about how you want someone to feel, and you want them to feel confident, you want them to feel welcome, you want them to feel you know at ease, at home, you want them to have good spirits, you want to raise the gray, you take the gray out of everything and oh, thank goodness you said that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I see one more person advocating for gray, I'm like, I'm so like you.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't understand the obsession with gray, literally in so many aspects of everything, from furniture to anyway.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's another discussion.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the point, your book in particular reflects that vision that you've just outlined, or that that understanding that whatever you do, whether you're traveling, whether you're cooking, whether you're creating a new home, uh, whether you're decorating, whether you're designing, your sensibility of the aesthetic, how does this make for a better life?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's really what you're saying.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: How can you add value to your life experience?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I will I think most people can.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually to me, it's an edit, and you need to surround yourself with things that make you happy.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I it's not about being a perfectionist, it's not about me, my crazy detail, because it's I contradict myself too, by the way.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when I say we it's normal, you're creative.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: What else would happen?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as if you wouldn't.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't mind everything being on the wall and something's been stuck on with a bit of blue tack and a great frame piece here and and a bit of embroidery that just suddenly took your eye.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, but you need to so I like collectibles, I like organized disorganization, I like things to be put away that I don't that I think are ugly.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So my kitchen has lots of cupboards and so does my laundry, you know.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't mind glass cupboards, you know, when I see all different glassware and things, it sort of adds to something.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, it's you've got to feel good when you go into your home or with what you wear.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's what gives you home is for security and a happy place, and you know, clothes are for confidence and how you want people to perceive you.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think whereas it's the opposite of home, it's not about how people perceive you, it's a safe place, and so therefore it's personal and it's full of your art, your children's art.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: It can have a reminder stuck to the wall.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's things that you know that you use for morning breakfast can be on the bench.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have something and be Nazi clean.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, if you drink chai or you drink whatever, it's part of your life.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I like kind of collecting things, I guess, that are part of my life, and I like things that are user-friendly, and I think most importantly, it's you know, it's where do people gravitate towards?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And bedrooms get a lot of attention, but I don't think they're so important.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're interesting and cozy and you know, dark, and I like to face the light when I wake up, but it doesn't need to be grandeur.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I much prefer a bigger kitchen with lots of tables and surfaces where friends gravitate towards, or you know, a big larger bathroom than a bedroom.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's like I'm I contradict a lot of what I think most designers would.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I guess I've got no formal training and I I can't admit to have it.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I only do things for myself because at the end of the day, I think it's very difficult to conform to an institution that might be for you know architects or interior designers and have a platform that people would, you know, understand where I'm going to go.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I actually love that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I feel very similarly in that there's an eclectic approach, there's a sense of of instinct.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're driven a lot by your instinct, and clearly that's worked very well for you.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the book certainly is.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even that photo of you, and you've got all those photos on the wall.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I posted on Instagram as part of the book.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the book and it's a beautiful, I think your dog's in it as well.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, that's my studio.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's my studio.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's very much like my studio.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love that.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I looked at that and I thought, I get this, and I love this photo because it it didn't look, I think there are sometimes images or impressions of restraint and neutrality that come from that sort of fashionista world that people feel.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, your book reflects this incredible diversity that you have of taste and aesthetic and eclectic elements that I just it really resonated for someone like me, for example, and I know for a lot of my listeners, because there's a there's a purity of instinct I can see in all the pages.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I also love the way the recipes are handwritten in that beautiful, you know.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love the shape of it, I love it, I love that whole.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the book sort of definitely showcases the breadth of your taste.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think it's it's not even it's not so in a way, it wasn't about me, the book.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds crazy, I know, but and the publishers they wanted a picture of me on it, more pictures.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, but it's not about me.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: But because you know, as I travel the world, and you know, if I'm in say Belgium or wherever, not I don't travel as much as we did before COVID, but you know, I am a gypsy at heart, really, as well.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I would sort of find references and put them in a book, and I've then I tried to do one book for Belgium, one book for Italy, so I could remember where everything was, and I'm not, you know, great at filing on computers and things.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd end up with all these journals, and then I'd never remember where I put them.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd think I was in Belgium.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know there was some great pattern on the floor, and it's not that you want to copy, and I don't think my book's about copying, and I don't think I'm a historian.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's sometimes it's nice to see something that you kind of want to visualize, but you haven't seen anything you want.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you want to use red or a color or something, have a little bit of, you know, I have a little bit of Africa in a lot of things, but too much would be too heavy and dark.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, to have a reference for people that they can have a journey to give them confidence to go into their own space and think, well, gosh, maybe I could do something similar, but instead of, you know, an African, an ode to Africa, I might have an ode to China and I can put something here, or you know, it's about I like the way you've done that.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you actually that hybrid of Italy, Australia that you've called, you know, the book.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was great because it was a really interesting bridge to cross or to reflect, you know, your your homeland where you come from, on one level, where you've been based, then you're traveling on another.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of, but it's like a lot of us.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: We sort of have our base and then we we hand pick from the world around us and then we bring it into the home.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's sort of what you've done.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's actually, I don't think most books are very, they're either on beachside homes or they're on there's something quite specific.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Totally agree.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what I wanted was for people, because every book out there is so beautiful, really, everything, you know, specific books or whatever, and it's an investment.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted it to be more than just pictures where you see a great cover, it sits on your coffee table.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted it to be used and to be referenced.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted people to know that the recipes are homely.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them have a lot of ingredients, but things like, for instance, abalone on the barbecue, it's so easy.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: But until I cooked it for the first time and had someone show me how to do it, it was one of the scariest things to tackle.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do you deal with an abalone, you know?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And fair enough.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be also very nervous to tackle abalone on the barbecue.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: But simple things that, you know, you think, okay, you know, and then you cook it for a while and then you get to know it, and then it becomes your own recipe and you change it a bit and you might swap a herb out or something else.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and I wanted it to be a used book.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted it to be a book that was referenced.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: People used it for recipes.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: They could look at some of the artists, some of them established, some of them very, you know, unknown, and actually just have it as a reference book for things that they felt made them feel happy or good, or or they could lose themselves in trouble, you know, like Naples as an example.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love Naples.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: We were there last year, and it's so beautiful that part you've got in the book.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I, when we lived in Rome, we the first time we went, we got lost in Naples.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was so scary.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was like we kept on driving and getting into narrower, narrower, and narrower roads.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then we die, and we were like, oh my god, we could die here.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: We really could stay big, uh, big crime factor there, yes.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, I took in my friends, Mimi and Otto, they started saying, Go, and these are the places to go to.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's like I've been there quite often now, and oh my god, I love Naples, the arts, the restaurants, there's a nonchalance, and because it is a port city, it reminds me, you know, it could be the Middle East in the old days, and it's got Pompeii close by.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's everything is so chaotic, but it's the food is sensational, you've got so much happening there, it's really vibrant, but you need to know.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look at a book like what the pictures we've got in some of the restaurants, it's a great reference because you've, if you're scared of Naples, at least you've got a few good restaurants to go and hide out and eat and have good food.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, you're right.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, you know, they have got that the crime element a little bit more in control.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: We went with some Italians out who actually came from Naples, and that was very comforting.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot of things there that, you know, I suppose that's the beauty of what you've done is you're basically sharing your what I've realized is you're an explorer, you're an adventurer, you've referenced the fact you're a gypsy.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think at the end of the day, what your this book shows is a lot more of you, and I think a much more um eclectic side of you that I think is really quite beautiful.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I certainly found the whole, like I'm obviously still flicking through and because we've only recently accessed the book, but to your credit, you've been also quite brave and just put it out there on your terms, and there's something intuitive that I really like about that.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So congratulations on that, because it takes a little bit of bravery just to do you.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of what I think it is.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and to be honest, I think there's a lot of people looking for that, as you say, not just the book on coastal homes or on going to Italy.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's broader and your friendships that you refer to as well, also quite, you know, inspiring.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the friendships are great.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're long-term friends, you know, whether, yeah, Neil Perry's been around for 40 years of my life, and we still we feel like it was just yesterday that we met and we still have the same ideas and talk about the things we want to do, but we've just seemed to have got busier.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the I think in respect to what you were just saying before, you know, like even uh Turin or Torino, we we love it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of our so there's such a huge French influence there, and the museums there are fantastic.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the um they've got the movie museum, they've got one of the best Egyptian museums in the world.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's Pierre Ponte, it's my favorite region for wine.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love Nebbiolo and Barolo.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Great restaurants in September, October, it's Porcini season and white truffle season.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's got so much going for it, and yet it's probably not the easiest place to get to because you you can't fly in internationally from there.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to go to Milan, the trains don't go from Rome um to Torino.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: You have to, it's a four and a half hour train trip.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot um that's logistics.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think so.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as popular as Florence or Milan or Rome or and Naples, I think, you know, it was the undiscovered the things that I love about some places that most of my friends hadn't been to that um entice me to, I guess, go and show everyone what they like because there's so much that once you start to explore them, it's magical.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what about your husband and your kids?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: How have they shaped you?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: My husband is a Gemini, so things change from morning to night.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what he thinks about something.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you'd be bored otherwise.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: My children most definitely, I've lost my, I guess, my impulsiveness.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was very impulsive and very in the moment.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I would do something if somebody asked me to leave and fly, you know, to America tomorrow.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: For I'd go, why not?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I wasn't afraid.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas now I'm much more organized, I'm much more considered of probably everyone else around me, and you know, how our family runs.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the, you know, the largest reasons for me, the well, the greatest reason for me closing my business.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And my husband most definitely is, you know, I know I don't feel insecure in my relationship, and he doesn't feel that either.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of security in being together.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I must drive, I think I do drive him most of the time quite mad because you know, when I'm always thinking maybe we could live in France.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: He said, What?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to another country, you know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and but then he, you know, we'll turn around by the end of the day.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, where would you go in France?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm making this up, by the way.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: But no, no, but conceptually it's about, I mean, I think to your point though, that there is something about as a sort of a more maturing woman who's lived a lot and got a lot still to live, and I'm the same.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that balance, it really, you know, when you have motherhood and you have a husband, you're trying to make sure that you you consider, as you say, and you're considerate and you're accommodating and you're reflective of what they need.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: But also it's hard because you have to suppress sometimes your urge, as you said, to fly.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you find other more lateral or in, I suppose, uh inspirational ways to do that.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be get on a plane tomorrow, but it might be I'm gonna do this book, or I might, you know, do something else.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a really, I do think it does change, like when you're a motherhood and being a wife and trying to navigate all that.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, as you've reflected, it impacts.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think, well, for me, perhaps that's why I started getting more involved in interiors and renovating my own homes, because it was something I could do, um, even though you'd like to adhere to a timeline.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like the roller coaster of Paris shows where you know every January, February I was doing my collection, regardless, like miss out on summer holidays with the kids.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas now we don't even know if we're going to do this January.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, why don't we just sort of stay on the farm and you know, lie by the pool and actually just do the veggie garden and not and stop and slow down for a while, which is really, you know, it's a a huge luxury in a way to be able to be in that position to do it because I don't know if I've ever been in that position to do it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, my how do you find that?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that challenging?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, because my children haven't been old enough up until now.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've always had to be by the pool watching them to make sure, you know, you know, whereas Hunter can swim now.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I I feel like there's that could they just, you know, Stella's older and she's at university, whereas Hunter's kind of just growing up, he's still attached, but it's you know, there's a much more, they have a greater sense of independence and they do their own things and have friends and play soccer.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's freed me up a lot to do more gardening and doing different things and not necessarily be holding their hand the whole time.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: But we're still obviously in the same house and property, and you know, I it that's that's a huge sense of freedom, but it's a sense of sadness for me too, because I do like being, you know, some uh the mother that my child, my children have been dependent on because you know, that thing of being needed and wanted is a is a very nice feeling.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: At the time you may not see it, but I guess again, retrospective, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I totally hear you, and I totally agree with you.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also, you know, you have done a lot on your journey, and I think that's a great thing for kids to see.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that kids watch very, very carefully every move, and clearly what you've done has been great inspo for them, but also, you know, it just creates a whole other dimension to your relationship.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are happy to slow down a little bit, although you've obviously bought the book out and you're obviously always creating, I can't imagine you'll stop creating.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, you're working on your interiors of the homes.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a blessing.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful to have you join us on the What I've Learnt Podcast to talk about this wonderful new book, but also your endless energy, passion, and creativity for creating a better world for yourself and for everyone around you.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's really quite, quite special, and I'm very grateful to have you come and talk to us all about it.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's been a pleasure, honestly.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's nice to have somebody who also wants insight to it too, because I think sometimes it's nice to explain where you've been and why you've done something rather than um it's sort of open for slather in a way.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm hearing you, and I'm so glad, and I feel that it was really beautiful you responded and and connected really well, and I'm sure our listeners will love it.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, enjoy the sunshine.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, hi Will, out there back in the garden dealing with the alpacas.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: The alpacas.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that will have to be discussed on our next podcast.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're coming, you're coming back on the show, and we'll talk about your beekeeping and your alpacas.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Endlessly creative and always pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, which I love.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Take care, Colette.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Love Death.