Latest / Thinking Class / #040 - James Esses - Why I Stood Up Against Gender Ideology Despite The Personal Costs

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#040 - James Esses - Why I Stood Up Against Gender Ideology Despite The Personal Costs · Thinking Class

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hello, classmates, and welcome to Thinking Class.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm John Gillam, and today I'm speaking with James Esses.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: James is a social commentator and writer, the co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, and the coordinator of the Declaration for Biological Reality.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: In this episode, James and I talk about why he was expelled from a master's in psychotherapy three years ago, the personal consequences he suffered for airing his gender critical views, the extent of ideological capture of Britain's largest institutions, what compelled James to speak up and the nature of bravery, how the Overton window on transgenderism has shifted, but not for everyone, the need for CEOs and leaders of corporations to depoliticise their business, and why James changed his mind on the usefulness of psychotherapy and much, much more.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: You'll hear in the conversation just how much I admired James, yet it's worth saying again here, because acting in the interests of others without any regard for personal honour or the negative consequences you'll suffer for putting your head above the parapet is to be courageous and to be driven by the good.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: And in the last three years, James has suffered consequences most of us wouldn't bear.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: But I'm glad that he's been vindicated in some way, having received a public apology from the Institute that expelled him from his studies.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: So I'll keep my fingers crossed that James gets the success he deserves, and I hope you think likewise.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Before we dive in, you would be really helping me out if you click subscribe on whatever platform you are listening to or watching Thinking Class on, because the more subscribers we have, the more guests we attract, and the faster the show grows.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show, classmates.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: James Esses, welcome to Thinking Class.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, John.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: It's good to be here.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's great to have you.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: I suspect you are hot property at the moment, James.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: You have been smashed all over the press, uh, both the internet and the broadsheet.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: You're on uh in the pages of some of Britain's largest newspapers, and this is following a public apology that you've received from the Metanoia Institute.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: You were studying a master's in psychotherapy with them three years ago, and you were expelled from that course.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and the apology is in relation to that.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So I don't end up um rehashing your own personal background.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps we can begin with how you ended up being featured in the Times and your this public apology was such a big deal.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, look, it's the it's the culmination of of three plus years worth of litigation, um, which is kind of crazy when I think about it is um I think I mean I said in the Times interview that I it's it the process has aged me.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh I definitely have, I mean, I've I I I have literally aged in in the time that's passed as well.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: And so it's you know it's a big relief to finally have closure on that.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean going back to May 2021 when all of this kicked off, and uh I'd essentially spent the previous few months for the first time speaking out about my concerns with uh gender ideology, as I call it.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was pretty new to the game.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people who've been speaking out about this stuff for far longer than I have.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: But uh from a therapeutic perspective, uh you know, I was really quite concerned that we were essentially I'm I'm gonna use strong language, like mutilating and sterilizing children for what is a mental health condition.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I thought as a as a therapist in training, I I simply cannot abide by this.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I joined together with some other therapists who shared my concerns, and we started to speak out, and I wrote a petition to the government, and and then the online attacks started coming, and the complaints, I think, to my the institute I was studying at started kind of piling in.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, it you know, literally uh what one day out of nowhere I received an email telling me I was expelled with immediate effect, and that then launched three plus years worth of litigation.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm you know it's been a big part of my life, and it's I mean, it it it essentially stopped my life plans in the tracks, and I I you know I I don't know whether I I will end up being able to go back into that vocation again.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Um it was a vocation that I loved very much, but I've tried turn a positive from a negative and tried to use the platform that I've got now to kind of push back against this ideology and others that I think are prevalent in society.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, you've certainly built a big platform, James.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you've got uh you've got a couple of hundred thousand followers on on Twitter at this point, and I think you got something like 54 million views of a post for uh releasing the breaking news that the High Court had said that they the decision to ban puberty blockers in the UK was lawful.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, 55 billion views is crazy.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: I think 35 came in the first 24 hours.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: So you you've certainly built a big platform.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: I suppose my my question to you, as someone who's gone through that in those three years, is was there ever a question that you were going to speak out and dissent against what you saw, or did you feel like you were compelled to do it because it felt like the right thing to do and you you didn't think about the consequences?
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Um I I I don't think it was ever in days because and I think this is a mixed blessing and a curse, but uh I feel very strongly wedded to my principles, and my core principles are around justice um and what you know what what is right and what is wrong, and so I can seem to help myself um when I see something that I think is unjust, I simply have to call it out, you know, uh much to the disp displeasure at times maybe of some of my family members.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I uh it's it's just something I have to do.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Um but going back to your question, I didn't really give it too much thought because I I didn't think that what happened to me could ever possibly happen.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: It didn't even feature in my thinking at the time because I at that point, maybe I was naive back then, but I was operating under the assumption that um adults can have mature, respectful conversations with one another, even if they fundamentally disagree.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, the places of study, for example, you know, have a duty of care towards students and and will treat their students with with empathy and mutual respect.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And these were kind of core beliefs that I had.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: So I I I never thought that this would happen.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Um it it it it didn't really seem like there was much risk as far as I was concerned, particularly because what I felt and what I still to this day believe I'm doing is for a public good.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I my my sole motivation in speaking out was about protecting children.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: Um and that seems like a pr pretty good thing for anyone to do.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, uh certainly when someone is raising child safeguarding concerns, they should they're the last people who should be shut down and cancelled.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, this is kind of a universal good I thought back then.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think you have certainly suffered insofar as back then you had no public profile, whereas the likes of JK Rowling can um, while she has rolled with some serious punches, is she's quite uncancellable, but for the likes of you and I to try to raise something against the uh prevailing winds that that we operate in is it comes with a lot of risk.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh one thing, though, that was gratifying from that apology, even though you had to go through three years of um well, I'd imagine quite a lot of personal pain and suffering uh for having to fight the battle that you did.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: But that public apology was striking.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you agree with this, but um, when I think about the public apologies that are issued for people who found to have been uh, I don't know, that something goes against them.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to put any words on this particular situation, but something goes against them, that something's ruled against them by their current employer, that employer's later found to be doing something not right.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: It's usually you'll get the boilerplate apology, which is we're very sorry for any distress caused, wish them all the best for the future, and that might be about it, one paragraph.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: This was a very involved public apology.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Um it felt like I don't know, it felt like there was some serious introspection on the behalf of the institution.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh and I suppose there were a few lines within that as well, which I suppose for those who are wondering whether to do something like dissent, um, as you did, is they greenlighted that it is okay to hold, it's valid to hold gender critical beliefs.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Did you did you did you feel uh vindicated, properly vindicated from receiving an apology like that, or did you feel it was it was lacking?
9:58
SPEAKER_01: No, I I really did feel vindication.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: It was I thought you know I thought the the statement is uh extremely comprehensive, um, and you know, it it makes it clear that I was a good student, um, you know, and essentially puts to bed this notion that uh you know I was failing, or I, you know, I would have I would have been chucked off anyway for some other reason.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: It kind of puts to bed that um conspiracy theory that's been doing the rounds online.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh as you say, a lot of introspection, um, a lot of acknowledging the changing tide in terms of government policy, the the the CAS review, um the uh the last government's implementation of the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, you know, it it a lot of people commented on this online.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: They said that it it felt like it showed genuine uh contrition.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So I was you know I was very pleased to see that.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Um this is different to seeing through litigation all the way and getting uh judgment in one's favour, you know, and and and this is uh when when anyone's involved in litigation, you're considering whether you're going to settle out of court, you do have to kind of consider these things and and look, you know, what was there a piece of me?
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Is there still a piece of me that you know would like it, would have liked a judgment?
11:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I think I think so, because that can give you something that nothing else nothing else can.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I feel that I've been vindicated, and that's all I ever wanted going into this.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: And more importantly, I wanted to make sure that this didn't happen to another student.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And the statement that Mesanoy have put out specifically says they will ensure this never happens again to another student.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: So in that respect, my work is kind of done, and I I you know and I I do hope it sends a message to other institutes.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: But I I think I don't know, I I I would imagine that if if all of that that happened back in 2021 was happening now, if I'd only just started to speak out about this in the same way, I don't think that it would have led to the same outcome.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Because I think institutes these days now are far more thankfully cautious about doing this because they've seen uh litigation, successful litigations being brought by others.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think they know that they're going to be at the receiving end of both, you know, uh well, reputational damage in particular if they do this kind of thing.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: So um I think I think the lay of the land is much safer now for students or indeed employees to speak out uh about their convictions.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you're right.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: The Overton window has certainly shifted, and uh I certainly remember a few years ago there was just no way that most people would even raise any dissent on this this matter because of because of how quickly that would be have been shut down and dealt with.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And since then there have been you and others like you who've ultimately had to blaze the trail for everyone else, but your experiences have ultimately left left a space uh behind you.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: You've left this wake uh as you've been traveling across the the sea for the first time, which people can get behind.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: And uh I think people can be thankful for that.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: That you they they've you would hope that people can start to dissent against these things, or at the very least, and perhaps we'll get on to this later, that institutes, organizations, and senior leadership of those will pause for thought before they head down that particular route of quashing dissent.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh let's let's talk about your your work since um, well, I suppose since you're expelled from that psychotherapy course, so you've built quite a following on Substack and on Twitter.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: You write lots of um um short research pieces about what's happening out in the world uh to do with transgenderism and the ideologies associated with it.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps you could take a moment to describe what you've found.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: You you've been researching lots of institutions that are well known, whether it's the NHS, the Financial Times, and many others.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: What's the nature of ideological capture and how transgenderism has spread through these organizations?
14:17
SPEAKER_00: What have you found?
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, I found to my dismay that this I'm going to say nefarious uh ideology is basically infiltrated every type of societal institution that one can think of.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Um the current government and the current crop of labour politicians, huge numbers of them are kind of fervent acolytes of this kind of like quasi religion.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Um I've reported on some of the horrific things the children have been taught in school, um sexualizing them from a young age, suggesting that they could have been born in the wrong body, uh having drag queens in you know, skimpy outfits coming to read for them.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: I've seen it in in in corporations as well, kind of woke capitalism pushing this stuff on uh customers and staff members, suggesting to customers that if they take a differing view that essentially they're not welcome in the place of business anymore.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Um you've seen it in sport.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Men competing against women.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Um I I I I could go on.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean uh uh the the the the world of uh psychotherapy and counselling, which and psychology, you know, and the and the wider mental health professions, I mean, again, they're kind of enthralled this stuff.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And for uh institutions that should be gatekeeping people's mental health and well-being, you know, it's it's it's particularly chilling to see that.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: Um journalism um you know, the BBC's own style guide uh essentially goes against uh impartiality and factual reporting, which is the entire basis of you know what the BBC is there to do.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, really, it's everywhere.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And the people who started pushing this narrative have played it extraordinarily well strategically.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's beginning to backfire now, but this happened under the radar.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't think people people didn't start to appreciate really what was happening until it was too late.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: When you talk about the level of ideological capture, I appreciate there's an irony in what I said in the previous passage, which was over and windows shifted, it feels like more people can dissent, and that people are dissenting en masse.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: But then it strikes me that the dissent is happening outside of those um institutions which seem to be still wedded to that course of action, almost regardless of what's happening outside of it.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like the Overton window exists on a different building, but not theirs, and it doesn't really matter what people are saying over there, they're not really going to listen, they're just gonna keep on pushing on.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Do you do you get any sense from the work you've done?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Because I I I could see in your substacks that people were getting in touch with you to share what was going on inside their organizations.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: It'd be interesting to see whether you're uh to hear whether you see the the green shoots of recovery where there might be a rollback on some of this stuff.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you have senior leaders getting in touch with you saying, I don't really know how to deal with this, we're going down this route.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Have you got any suggestions?
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Do you see enough of a change that this might start to dissipate?
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Or from where you're standing, do you see institutional uh bias just utterly committed to this way of thinking?
18:24
SPEAKER_01: I I think it's it differs from place to place.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I did an expose on the British Board for Film Classification because they were essentially going way beyond their remit and essentially recommending and encouraging children to watch ideologically based films, including you know telling them that they they they could be trapped in the wrong body.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: So I wrote a piece on that, it received a lot of uproar and they ended up pulling that material all together.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, they may have done that simply because they wanted to uh mitigate against reputational harm.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: They may have done it because they were trying to be decent people and had truly reflected it on what you know what they were doing.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: I either way I don't particularly care because they removed the material, so that's all that matters.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: But but similarly, um I did a whole big expose on Wix because I I had sat in on some training uh that they were delivering and uh for for the staff members and you know, I think it was the chief operating officer had essentially referenced gender critical people as bigots and essentially saying, you know, you're you're not welcome in our stores.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: And again, a huge uproar.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was all over the national media.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Their share price, I don't know whether it was a coincidence, but their share price dropped over that couple of days.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I thought something big will come of this, and in reality, nothing happened.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: That same individual is still in post, they're still pushing stuff at this year's Pride Month.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: They were out in force with their floats and banners and all the rest of it.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: So it really does seem to vary from case to case.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I look at Pride Month that's uh from this year more broadly, and people seem to have a general sense that they were noticing less of this stuff being thrown in your face when they're walking down the local high streets.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know whether that's wishful thinking.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we don't really have a kind of clear metric to base that on.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: When I was in central London, it was everywhere.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: But but there seems to be a sense, um, at least among some of the people I talk to, that there is a bit of a rowing back, and maybe you're seeing a few less trans flags in the window.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're seeing a few less pronouns in people's signatures at work.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I I I do think that there is a shift, but I think it's going to be quite a while before it's a very noticeable shift.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, until perhaps the next current thing comes along and everyone jumps on that.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't help but but chuckle internally when you talked about Wix taking that approach.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Wix for people who might be listening and don't really uh uh recognise the brand, they're effectively a uh a home DIY store um or chain of stores.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine, without uh having to project um onto their typical customers, is I'd imagine most people hold gender critical views, even if they don't understand the um ideological terminology behind it.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So if they're if they're not welcome in their stores, they'd quickly go out of business.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: I suppose it'd be like the British version of the Bud Light Um Um Dylan Mulvaney advert, which caused such uproar and people started boycotting it albeit, you know, still around.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, the the metric, uh whether it's shifting, hard to tell, isn't it?
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And I I know what you mean about London.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: I was there the um other week and I was struck by seeing um seeing some they weren't billboards but they were large advertisements that were plastered all over the the um underground stations and one of them was of um a um a woman who had had top surgery and she was revealing it um and top surgery being a misectomy both breasts removed and it had the the new pronouns and um I think it was something like a hashtag of we are everywhere and it struck me as just wondering how alien this would seem to people not 10 years ago to if that was just on the on a billboard somewhere.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: It was so it was so visual.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Um and I was I was quite shocked about it actually.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, perhaps it's it's not yet in in recession, but I suppose I'd like to know and I know this from having been in the corporate world for a while, is why there are so many senior leaders who must have some level of critical analysis when someone decides to push a strategic viewpoint or these new policies to organize as part of their jobs some kind of a governance committee that says, what are all the ways that this could go wrong?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: What are the ethics behind it?
23:28
SPEAKER_00: What are the things that we're not looking at that might actually cause a problem?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And for some reason that doesn't happen.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: It that this stuff gets green lighted, and whole policies and strategic objectives are set up around a particular ideology, and it's not until you know the horse is bolted and that public opinion inevitably starts to turn against it that people start to do anything about it, but it's always quietly and allowed to fizzle out.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Um so I suppose we'll see whether we we we start seeing people turning around.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Um from what you've seen in the organizations that you've seen it um uh pushed in, um what scope do you think there would be of a public inquiry?
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Because I suppose where you're sitting as a as a psychologist or a former formerly training psychologist, you were concerned about the the physical harms that were being caused to children.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, they were greenlighted through medical transition um when reporting gender dysphoria.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: What what um what organizations do you think ought to issue a public inquiry and what chances do you think of a public inquiry given the scale of the harms and and how many people were complicit in them?
24:44
SPEAKER_01: I I want to see a public inquiry, and I think it's the only thing that would allow us to truly take stock of what's happened and ensure that this is never allowed to happen again.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Um I was calling for it under the last government.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: I'd actually pulled together a letter that I wrote to Rishi Sunak.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: It had hundreds of signatories, including politicians from across the political spectrum, peers in the House of Lords, doctors, mental health practitioners, some big heavy hitters like J.K.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Rowling and others signing it.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And I send that to Rishi.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: I actually had a meeting in number 10 Downing Street about it.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: It looked as if maybe there was something there, and then he called the general election.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And look where we've ended up now, and there is precisely zero chance of a public inquiry happening under this government.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'd probably agree.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: And maybe we should linger on that change of government for a moment.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to some of the points you were making earlier on about how it seemed the tides were were changing.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: We've had institutional uh inquiries into uh the use of things like puberty blockers and and um what they call uh gender-affirming healthcare.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Um so we had first the caste review was was uh commissioned that recommended adopting uh a more therapeutic approach for children um instead of initiating permanent gender transition that begin with puberty blockers.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: And the reason for that is they say this causes temporary, permanent brain mutation.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: And then there was uproar against it, right?
26:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if people had read the report, but you know, here they are.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Everyone talks about wanting experts, and then some experts come along, produce a report, and they say don't want to listen to it.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there was a bit of a pushback, and there were people saying we don't want to listen to the findings of the CAS report, and we think it's unlawful.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And so then it went through the High Court, as we mentioned earlier on, and that High Court said that was a perfectly lawful ruling.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Um what we I guess we must be careful here, knowing that we sit here in in Britain and we've got a government which is um now clamping down on any speech that might could be legal but also harmful.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, hate speech, misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, all the whole gumut of words.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: So we'll have to be as careful as we we can here.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: But what what do you think this current Labour government, the supporting cast of NGOs who who push this kind of ideology are willing to do to keep um turning away from the latest report, the findings and advice?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: What mechanisms do you think will be used to keep pushing it ahead?
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Or do you think that there will be an acceptance of that high court ruling?
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Um I I think, well, I'll kind of take the Labour Party and um um separately to kind of activist groups, although there is a lot of crossover.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I mean for these kind of activist groups, they'll stop at nothing to try and stop uh pushback against this.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, when the last government released the guidance in the school's guidance for transgender uh students, you know, there was a lot of good stuff in there.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it didn't go far enough as far as I and others were concerned, then it should have been put on a formal statutory footing.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: But you know, it was pretty good.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Um it was moving away from this uh notion that it existed before that you know teachers could be kind of complicit in keeping secrets from children's parents about them transitioning in school and and and also the type of things they were being taught as part of the curriculum.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Um so there's some good stuff in that.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: I went undercover to some sessions for educational uh leaders, including I think there were some school governors and even head teachers on this training, and they were essentially being encouraged to simply ignore the guidance altogether, uh, because it was just that guidance, you know, it wasn't it wasn't mandated by legislation.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Um similarly, I sat in on some training organized by the British Psychological Society, and again, one one would have thought that in light of the Kass review, they would have really taken stock of that and the ways in which they've been complicit in pushing this ideology in the past, but they didn't, and one of the senior leaders essentially said that um because Hillary Cass is cisgender and straight, that she's simply pushing a quote-unquote heteronormative bias.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that that that a that a clinical psychologist can try and undermine uh a thorough piece of research like this on that basis is very worrying.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't think they'll stop at anything.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: In terms of the Labour Party themselves, they're trying to back both horses.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: We've seen some good stuff, like Web Street and the Health Secretary seems to have suggested that he will go with the puberty blocker ban that the last government initiated.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Um that's positive to see.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And he he's he's spoken highly of the cast review himself.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: But equally, this government has pledged in the King's speech to ban quote-unquote conversion therapy, which will have serious negative consequences.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And James, what do they mean by conversion therapy?
30:12
SPEAKER_00: In fact, in the therapeutic profession, what what do you think they mean by conversion therapy?
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, they can't mean anything that we would typically associate with the term conversion therapy, like beatings or corrective rape or electric shock therapy or whatever, because all of those things thankfully have been outlawed a long time ago.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: That's you you can't go around electrocuting people uh in the United States.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Was that actually where the term came from, and that was its history?
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Because and and it was and it was specifically linked to people trying to change the sexuality of people.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was some abhorrent stuff that went on in the past, there is no doubt about that.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: The problem is now that we are going to swing far too far in the other direction.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So, really, when people use that term nowadays, what they are getting at is talking therapy and conversations between religious leaders and their congregation.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: That is what will be caused by this new legislation.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Um and it very well could risk criminalizing ethical explorative therapy between therapists and vulnerable children struggling with a mental health condition.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not I I mean, it was actually the conversion therapy stuff that was the catalyst for everything that happened to me because the petition that I started to the government back in 2021 was asking them essentially not to go ahead with that legislation.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: And here we are, years later, a new government and they're pushing forward with it.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm really concerned to see that.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm waiting to see the wording of this draft legislation.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: But uh as far as I'm concerned, there is no way to word this in a manner that won't have serious negative consequences.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: So and then Starmer himself is a bloody, I mean, he you know, we we we can get away from the facts.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: Whatever else he says now, he he he said not so long ago that one in a thousand women have a penis.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't how can someone like that be trusted?
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And he's made pledges in the past that he wants to make misgendering people a hate crime.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Lord only knows what's going to happen over the next few years under this government.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, well, after 48 days or whatever it is, I think, you know, things are things are feeling different, certainly.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I think people would uh for for all of the Tory government's foibles over the last 14 years, I think um commentators of any stripe um would agree that they never really felt the way they do now with regards to looking over their shoulder about what they what they say, no matter how carefully worded and analogous.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Um yes, it's uh it's the the practical consequences of conversion therapy not being allowed, then is effectively a way of fast tracking kids straight to the medical transition.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: It's saying, no, that that there's no point in doing the talking therapy, this is not good, it's unethical because we're stopping the child from realizing who it is they're truly meant to be.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: And so this is just another way of getting round these rulings.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Is that effectively what what they're that this is aimed at?
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, but that's what I believe it's aimed at in terms of what they would say.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, they they would say, um, and this is the language that's often used, I've seen legislation passed in other jurisdictions, they say you are suppressing somebody's gender identity.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Um if you come from a point of view that sex is binary and immutable, you cannot change your sex, um, then this whole thing becomes a nonsense in and of itself.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: You've got gender dysphoria, a mental health condition, there is some sort of mismatch between how people are feeling and the body they're in, which is not uncommon.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's lots of other mental health conditions like that.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Think about eating disorders, think about body dysmorphia, where people hate part of their body.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: The answer is not to give them liposuction or chop off limbs, it's to help them to accept themselves.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: It may be difficult to accept themselves.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: There's part of myself I don't like, there's part of my body I don't like.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I I uh I I say this sometimes when I was a teenager, I was gonna I wanted to have a bloody nose job because I was I you know I had slash have a pretty uh voluptuous nose, and I'd uh you know I had people taking the piss at school, and I I you know I thought I'd maybe I have plastic surgery.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm very thankful I didn't.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: But so you know, this is a this is a common theme amongst human beings.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Um so I but the problem is we've we've created this distinction between one's biological sex and one's legal sex.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what this piece of legislation called the Gender Recognition Act 2004 did, which allows people to apply for a gender recognition certificate, which under the law will legally change their sex marker.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's obviously completely ludicrous.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: We we've we've now set the tone that there are different types of sex.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: There aren't.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Your sex is your sex, and that's it.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: So I think that legislation needs to be repealed altogether.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: But that's kind of what's allowed us to go down this path now where we're finding the government wanting to have legislation specifically referencing concepts like gender identity, which are these kind of nebulous postmodernistic concepts that don't really mean anything.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it makes me makes me wonder uh whether we'll ever see the appetite um within a government to repeal this.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: And I know people jokingly in the lead up to the well, semi-jokingly in the lead up to the general election talked of the Conservatives and the Labour Party as being the Uni Party, because whilst one well, I think the distinction people draw is Conservatives stab you in the back and Labour stab you from the front.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, but um both are pretty aligned on that um set of blairite uh reforms and laws that were brought in.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: And it always strikes me when we're talking about the overreach of things like DEI policies or transgenderism that a lot of them come downstream from this legislation that was brought out post-1997.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: And um I don't know whether there will be a political vehicle that will come up and say, right, let's let's start to repeal these and deal with the consequences off the back of it.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh the the the irony is that the legislation that's caused some of the biggest issues in this regard ends up being the legislation that protects myself and others.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, um the Equality Act, I and others think is a mess.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh and yeah, it specifically enshrines in there, you know, a protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the stick that's been used to beat organizations and trying to say to them, you know, uh you can't exclude trans people from the toy list or changing room of their preference or whatever.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, so that's that's caused a whole host of problems there more generally.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: But then there's a lot of people who have had to, you know, gender critical people who have had to bring cases relying on the protection that belief of beliefs under the Equality Act, you know, that's one of the protected characteristics as well.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's it's interesting.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: These things can end up being a blessing and and a curse.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, way back when I mean when the Gender Recognition Act was passed, you know, 2004, that's a little, you know, 20 years ago.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: And back then, I think that you know, I looked at the statistics, and it was a handful of people that they thought this would apply to.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think they had it in their mind at the time just how far this would go.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: But yes, as you've just said, that legislation really has paved the way for the type of culture that we're living in today.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Taking a longer-term view about what whether it's our generation or some of those that follow might think about when they look back, I um was reminded of a passage within Douglas Murray's book, The Madness of Crowds, which talked about um race, identity, um, homosexuality, and transgenderism.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: And the the passage would be good to get your view on.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: So it goes goes like this every age before this one has performed or permitted acts that to us are morally stupefying.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: So, unless we have any reason to think we are more reasonable, morally better, or wiser than at any time in the past, it is reasonable to assume there will be some things we are presently doing, possibly while flushed with moral virtue, that our descendants will whistle through their teeth at and say, What the hell were they thinking?
39:06
SPEAKER_00: It was worth wondering what the blind spots of ours might be.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: What might we be doing that will be regarded by succeeding generations in the same way we now look down on the slave trade, or using Victorian children as chimney sweeps?
39:20
SPEAKER_00: So, James, is this a wrong side of history moment?
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Is it a bit like that scene in the Mitchell and Webb show, which has done the rounds on on Twitter where I think um David David Mitchell is dressed as the as one of the SS and Souza's comedy partner, and they both look at each other and say, are we the bad guys?
39:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, look, I I I I tend to feel a bit repelled by kind of moralistic virtue signalling because I feel that's what's got us into this mess in the first place.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: And and so I I see people both on my side of the argument and the other side using terms like right side or wrong side of history.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: And I I often think that's used in a virtue signalling sense.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: So I I I tend to avoid that term myself.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: But I mean we we have allowed that the state has allowed children to be rendered infertile and then have parts of the body and even their genitals, you know, taken away from them in a way that they can never get them back again.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is essentially essentially state um state facilitated, state-enabled child abuse.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: So you know, you're damn right, I hope, that the generations that look back on this and that this is in the history books, um, that we truly learn from this and never allow it to happen again.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: But it's so deeply embedded in the culture, and also I've been so focused on the United Kingdom, but this is happening all over the Western world, and we are far better off than some of our neighbours.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I only have to look back at my homeland of Ireland to see what's happening over there, and they are fully enthralled in this.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: So I think you're going to have a bit of a split around the world, and it could be that we get ourselves in check, and then we have to go and start turning our attention to other jurisdictions around the world where this is only just starting to kind of embed itself and take off.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: So I I don't know, but I you know, I I I I think that people need to be held responsible for what has happened.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not in the business of granting amnesty to people uh and simply saying, you know, and accepting them, saying, Oh, you know, I didn't realise at the time because the clinicians who've been pushing these puberty blockers on children, the surgeons who have been cutting off, you know, healthy breasts of vulnerable women, they are complicit in all of this.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: And I've said it before and I'll say is again, I I believe they should be not just struck off from whatever medical register they're on, but I I truly believe they should be behind bars.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: What's interesting is we've talked about the severity that things the severity that we have seen the levels reach here in the UK, and we've lamented that, I suppose, in in the course of this conversation.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: But what I find interesting is that when we get those bits of news, or like the High Court judgment uh about the the cash review findings being lawful and that a decision to ban puberty block is lawful, um, is people look to look at Britain as being a global leader, you know, you see quite influential people from across the pond or just over the Irish Sea saying, look, the United Kingdom's doing it.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet, as you we have talked about, is whatever what whatever has come out of this ideological spasm, it's it's made it's made its way through our institutions.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: And so being able to make any meaningful progress in finding a sensible equilibrium is still going to be hard, despite the fact there seems to be law behind it and a growing uh expert view that is in align with most people's dissenting gender critical views, there still seems to be lots of of work to do.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: And and I suppose, James, taking you all the way back to the start is you you've paid a high price for dissenting, as we've talked about, and in many ways, um you probably wish life could have been a bit easier for the last three years and it hasn't been.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: But you you have paved the way if we look at some of the findings uh within these reports.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: The the apology that you received that seems to say these these the the concessions.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: That these views are valid.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there'll be people watching, listening, who are in those peer those positions of influence within an organization who might ask what they can do if they're concerned about the direction or the policy direction of the organizations they work for.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: What if you had the ear of those people who were seeing their organization lurch in this direction?
44:28
SPEAKER_00: What would you tell them to do?
44:33
SPEAKER_01: I think these organizations need to depoliticise.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: I think they need to uncouple themselves from this DEI agenda, which the gender stuff, of course, we've been focusing on that.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: That's only one part of this.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, I come across materials all the time telling white staff members of companies that they're all racist.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Um I think they need to completely depoliticise.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: There needs to be kind of a great reset that takes place, actually.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: Um and what we need to put in its place is a toolkit for these organizations to ensure that they are treating all of the staff with respect and that they are crucially ideologically and politically neutral.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: Um we we need to remove this notion that uh that companies exist to be activists on a kind of global stage.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, they should do what they're doing, which is uh selling the product or service and do it well and treat the staff and customers with respect, and that's it.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: Um rather than use themselves as kind of political vehicles.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: So I I think there needs to be a kind of complete reset of that.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, and I'm I'm I'm thinking myself about in the future what what these kind of companies could need.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm I think that the problem is for any corporation, it it it almost feels like a necessity to have some sort of DEI training and some DEI you know staff member.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean these terms roll off our tongue so easily now.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Um problem is that a lot of the uh places providing this training are pushing partisan, you know, uh beliefs and and views on these organizations.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: So I I think there needs to be a new offering for these businesses, really, that I don't think currently exists to kind of take the place of what we term DEI.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: And what's interesting is I think there might be an appetite for it because there are some organizations that, albeit very few, but one high-profile example comes to mind.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Harley Davidson has just removed the DEI program.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: It came out with a statement saying this is how we're gonna continue to make sure that we hire the best people and that we're not discriminating and all of those things, but we don't think we need a team and we don't need these particular policies.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Now they've taken some flack for that, but as you can imagine, they're also getting lots of praise for it.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: And I know Helen Pluck Rose, who has been on the podcast, she uh albeit has been coming from a slightly different angle, but but similar, is she gets people getting in touch with her on the side saying, How do I respond to this?
47:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we should be going down this path.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, what can I do?
47:23
SPEAKER_00: And she gives some advice and she's written a whole book called The Counterweight Handbook, how you can potentially deal with these issues in your firms and say, I don't think we should be doing this.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there is an appetite for it, and I I hope that people like you, people like Helen, can satisfy that appetite, and maybe we can see, as you say, these more uh politically neutral organizations uh and they get back to doing what they're doing because I I've seen examples in my time in the corporate world of, and this is admittedly after the first set of lockdowns, is organizations enabling medical transitions, enabling um um surrogacy even for uh families.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: And I felt as though this may well be something an organization could end up regretting in the future from a reputational perspective, but also you don't know what's going to happen in an individual's life that might make them think that that wasn't something their company should have been helping them do in those particular moments.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll see buyers' remorse, and hopefully people like you will get called up to help people take a more measured approach to these matters.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: I certainly, I certainly hope so.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think I think on the ground, I think that you know the things are changing.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: I you know, because I have people reaching out to me all the time from a variety of organizations and and that they're not happy with what's happening.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, those people are growing in numbers, they're also growing in confidence when they've seen the outcome of myself and other people's litigation.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: So um I think it's gonna require a bottom-up and a top-down approach, to be honest.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be empowering those at the ground level to kind of rise up and speak out against this stuff and their institutions equally.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: We need to try and change the minds of some of these senior leaders.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: And I again, as I said earlier, I don't particularly care whether it's um by uh how would I say it?
49:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't care care whether it's through uh offering them you know a dog treat or uh showing them the stick because I just want this stuff to stop.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: I just want to stop people being harmed in the name of this ideology.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: So look, if we can change people's minds, if we can show them the evidence, the cast review, uh if we can make them listen to detransitioners talking about their experiences, and they can change their minds, you know, naturally, and and then so much the better.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: But if that doesn't work, and the only way that these people are going to listen is through threats of litigation and threats of boycotts from their customers, so be it.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm happy to lead that charge if it's necessary.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, on that on that note of you talking about trying to change minds is well, amen to all of that.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: But on the the topic of changing minds, what I'd like to ask every one of my guests before I let them go is what have you changed your mind about during the course of your life or or recently, and what was it that made you think differently?
50:51
SPEAKER_01: This is a difficult one because I'm usually pretty uh I'm uh I'm pretty strong-willed, and it does take a lot to get me to change my mind on things.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: I'd say I to be honest, I I I've started to change my mind on uh mental health provision and psychotherapy more generally.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I when I started training, I kind of viewed this as an unconditional good.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: I I remember saying to some of my peers on my training course, I think everyone should have a therapist.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: And I genuinely meant that because I, you know, at the time I thought there's you know, there's no other space where you can just completely be yourself, you've got someone, the soul focus is on you, you can talk about your issues, it's confidential, you know, all the rest of it.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: Um but now what I've seen from some of the therapeutic practitioners and bodies that exist out there, what I've seen from the kind of tendency to medicalize young children from a young age and pathologise them and and put labels on them.
51:53
SPEAKER_01: Um from how fragile I've seen we've created you know the new generation, uh you know, coddling them to the point that they lack any form of resiliency whatsoever and kind of pushing victimhood narratives on them.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: I think mental health has played a part in this.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: I think some people have been harmed by mental health provision and psychotherapy.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: So I've I've changed my mind on that.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: I I still fundamentally believe that when used correctly for the right people, mental health provision is a good thing, but I no longer think it's a universal good.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting you say that.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: I also have had a similar arc, I would say.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: And I I think therapy can be useful to help people take action in their lives when they've they've they've become stuck on some things, and it helps them figure out the right route, and they don't often get that from their other personal relationships.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm sure in those moments when people are suffering the those nadeas that you can get in life that there's nothing quite like having someone in your corner.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: But one thing I think uh I have noticed through how prevalent therapy and the therapeutic worldview has become is that we have lots of people who seem to be lacking a little bit of resilience now, where they they almost use those as a bit of a blocker from doing things is one aspect.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: But there's another, as you talked about, this pathologizing, which makes people go out looking for things that might be wrong with them, and and I don't necessarily know how healthy that is to just constantly have in the background to just have labels put on things so then you can finally make sense of something.
53:47
SPEAKER_00: And I know it can be a useful tool, probably for some people to go, oh well that that makes sense.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: But but but I have seen it in my personal life with with others in my circle where it um that can become a blocker for them from them actually making any changes, or they become so overly analytical about something that they can't move forward because they're too busy tossing around everything in their mind.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: So, like anything, it you think that when something becomes uh used more frequently in in this particular instance, that that must be a universal good, as you talked about, but actually you can get too much of a good thing.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly how I feel.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe it was for the best that you're expelled from that course after all.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: You could have been locked into a career you you didn't want.
54:42
SPEAKER_00: But all joke, all jokes aside, is um you you've clearly got a lot to offer the world.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for someone to be able to stand up without thinking about the consequences personally, but only to be acting on the consequences that you could see of harming other people that you don't even know who they are at this point, they're just people in the world, and then to go through what you went through, and none of it for public honour or recognition, and you have you've definitely created a space, and whilst I'm I'm sure things are difficult and uh and probably not quite clicking into place just yet, uh, I have no doubt that someone who is thinking about how to help the world and how to help people step by step, and doing it with bravery and courage, and engaging with people across every institution and and sector, is you're you're having an impact on people and and you're doing it in a way that isn't self-serving.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: You're not doing it because you're going out to have a positive impact on the world, you you're doing it because you're you you you believe that you are uh ultimately fighting against bad.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think and I hope that you get what you deserve in this life because these last three years I I wouldn't have wished it on people, and as much as you get a public apology, it it uh it still doesn't take away from the fact that you were you you were put through the ringer, and uh that that seems entirely unfair to me.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, I just wanted to finish with a more power to you, James, and I wish you all the best.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: No, thank you very much, John.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, those those very kind words and and and you know they they mean a lot.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've I've seen a lot of bad things over the last few years, but I've also seen a lot of generosity and kindness and and warmth.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, and I've I've I in some ways I've seen the best of people as well through all of this.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: And if I can turn a bad situation into something good, then so much the better.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, we're put on this earth.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we could all go around trying to earn as much money as possible and all the rest of it.
56:58
SPEAKER_01: But I think for me personally, if I can spend my time doing something that has some sort of beneficial impact, particularly on something like child well-being, for which I think there is nothing more important than that, then as far as I'm concerned, that'll be a life well lived.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: Um so yes, but thank you for the kind words.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, you're welcome.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: Keep fighting the good fight.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: Before I let you go, we'll we'll finish on uh decidedly less um uh important matters.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, but people want to find out where they can they can see what you're up to.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: So where can people find you in the dark corners of the internet, James?
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I basically live on Twitter, uh, much to my wife's displeasure.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm I'm frequently on there.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: My my DMs are open, so you know, if people are watching this and they've got concerns about what's happening in their institute or they've come across something in the child's school or whatever it might be, you can always you know reach out to me and I treat things in confidence unless you give me permission otherwise.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I've got Substack where I write a weekly column.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: Um I I think those are probably the two main areas, but I've also got my email address, I believe that's linked on my Substack and my Twitter.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: But you know, basically I'm I'm that you know, if people want to reach out to me, I'm always happy to have a conversation.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, James, I'm sure people appreciate that.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me, and hopefully we'll speak again in the future.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much, John.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Enjoyed it.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: Take care.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at Thinking Class and follow me on X at Thinking Classes.
58:39
SPEAKER_00: Thinking Class seeks to understand the civilizational issues we face and why what our leaders do in response matters.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: Here I seek to explore the ideas, values, and culture that made our civilization, those that are unmaking it, and how leaders at our public and private institutions should respond.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: Engage with me on YouTube or X or write to me at thinkingclasspod at gmail.com to tell me who you want me to speak to and what topics are important to you.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: I look forward to seeing you there and for joining me on this journey.