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Zone 2 Training: When Easy Training Isn't Enough · The Endurance Athlete Journey

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Coach Justin.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Coach Katie.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And today's episode is 122 of the podcast.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we're coming to you today with uh like what I want to classify it as like an introductory episode.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So Katie and I have been uh sitting on this topic for quite a while now, and uh I've been kind of apprehensive to even touch it, but I I think it it's a worthwhile concept, and I think mainly because it's so misunderstood and misused.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what we want to get into is the zone to training methodology, uh, not just its efficacy in generating adaptation, but how should we implement this method of training?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be really, really clear here is that this is a a method of training that has been marketed and sold to uh what I would classify as kind of like introductory athletes as a way to get them into the sport and get them engaged.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, whether this is a a sustainable model of of training as you become more experienced and you start to deepen your fitness uh uh in endurance sports, whether continuing with this methodology of of training actually continues to build adaptation and and strength and speed.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's the real question that we're trying to answer.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that we're going to get to that answer in this episode.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what I want to do is I want to broach this subject on, you know, what is zone two training?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: What is some of the what are what is some of the science now showing us in its efficacy?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But first we have to set the table.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, what exactly is zone two?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're if you've ever used training peaks, uh, for instance, and you've gone in to set your zones, and you're like, oh, you know, I'm a runner or I'm a cyclist or I'm a triathlete, and you know, I've I want to set my power zones for for the bike so I know what what range I'm training in.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: If if you look at the little drop-down list, there's like six different uh algorithms for plotting out your zones.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, each one of those has a different methodology to it in defining what the zones are.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the concept of zone two is not a universal one.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So really trying to determine even if you're in zone two is going to be a function of what methodology you're using to define your zones.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what is zone two?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll kind of go into a little bit of a brief introduction as to like really what zone two is and in a little bit, just a little bit of the science, because I don't want to make this like overly science-y because I I just I don't think that that's where our listeners are interested in going.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we do have to kind of understand what the foundation is.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um the claims that zone two training make is that it is optimal in terms of mitochondrial and fat burning benefits, that it's it's a it's a state of optimality.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: The question becomes is like, okay, has this claim or these two claims lived up to the hype?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, are we seeing that this is that these two claims are indeed true?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna break a little bit of that down.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: The the last thing that I would kind of want to uh broach is uh how should recreational endurance athletes actually use zone two training and what we would call a balanced training program.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I personally, uh my coaching philosophy uh is that I don't use a predominance of of zone two.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: We use all the zones, all of them bring about specific adaptation that we're trying to build.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on where we are in terms of the athlete's position within their journey.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are they a new athlete?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are they an experienced?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are they a competitive?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are they an elite athlete?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: All of these that alone will determine what kind of methodology we should use to generating adaptation for optimal performance.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we may not even be interested in optimizing mitochondria and fat burning benefits.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: That may not be what we're seeking, but uh I do want to broach those three like broad questions within this one episode, and then I think we're going to come back and kind of like pick apart some of these claims a little bit deeper uh so that we can we have a really good understanding on like what really zone two training is and the methodology that lies behind it, so that you can determine what method is best for for you and where you are currently in your journey.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you progress, that methodology may need to change.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I've been uh toying with in my own training uh as I've gotten older, as uh as my fitness has gotten deeper, I've now had to change the way I train.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I think that this is important to at least have an understanding to determine on whether this mode of training is good for you, or even if you're not at a position yet where you can rely on zones, uh, which is something that I do want to bring up in this episode.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of a long-winted intro, a long-winded intro on on where it is that I want to go with this.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but um, I I think that this is an important topic and it's one that that I've been hesitant to touch on, but I I think it's time.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we've been putting it off, I think, for a while.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I've been putting it off because it's so popular.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like what are we gonna add to the conversation?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think perhaps even though it is a topic that is discussed a lot, I think our you our unique experience experiences as athletes and coaches and our thoughts on it maybe can bring in a good, you know, give people something to kind of think about um in a way maybe they haven't thought about it, or to kind of offer some clarity for people on it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of people are like, what I don't even still understand, you know, what is this zone two?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because there is so much confusion.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I think a lot of that stems from how it's even measured or how it's even defined.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that just brings in a lot of confusion for people.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully we'll kind of discuss that.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the end, maybe people will realize that it's still hard to def like there is no universal, like this is gonna be always your zone two, because you have to figure out how to measure it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you do um testing, you know, you actually go into a a lab and test it changes over time.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what's so hard about it and why I think maybe such a focus on zone two and being overly worried about it is not helpful.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe instead there's other things we can focus on um or ways to kind of um break it down and based off of it your intensity or perceived exertion or you know, the different parameters of kind of looking at it, because unless you're wanting to um do lactate threshold testing and have a little finger stick device with you all the time to figure out what sort of lactate, you know, mm measurements you're at.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're in some sort of special zone, I don't think that there's a really a way to to actually know sometimes, you know, where we're at.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I've tried different methods myself, uh, not, you know, not only the um just like kind of measuring it based off heart rate, but then uh, you know, you and I both sort of experimented with that the Morpheus system.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that was I liked it because it did take into account things that might affect your zone zones or your zone too from day to day, like how recovered you are and how well you slept and your HRV.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of did something a little bit different that other like Garmin and some of the other, you know, um methodologies or ways of measuring it don't do because it doesn't always take into account those things.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: But even then it's hard to know.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was it was hard to know if I was just no, I mean it's it was just a calculation based off an app or an algorithm or something, you know?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: So although it was maybe interesting and helpful, I st maybe it's getting closer to to the point because it's cause it is understanding that it changes a to day, but I still think even when I was using that, I think there were days I'm like, I don't think this is really zone two.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know, I don't feel like zone two or this feels too easy, or you know, so even even in an attempt, you know, to use an app or some sort of special device, it still I think can be a challenge to know if it's truly zone two.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think why I think my hopefully people come away from this, maybe not worrying so much, also, like worrying so much about if they're in zone two or not.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like kind of trying to be somewhere close is okay.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I think people think if they even come out of zone two and somehow they're in sort of a higher heart rate zone for even a minute, they've somehow ruined their entire workout.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yep, you know, like oh, I I was supposed to be in zone two and my watch said I went up to you know zone three and for three minutes and now I completely blew it or something.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think you know, that's not how our bodies work.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I hope no people people kind of come out of this under, you know, with that sort of understanding with it.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And generally we should be enjoying our trainings.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's there's a benefit to it, but the obsessiveness over it maybe is is not so helpful.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, let's get maybe started.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do we want to share any?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, let's let's let's jump right on in.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because this this episode can get away from us.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I see that already.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know we're that's why we're doing this.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're 11 minutes into it and we've just done the intro.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we're gonna do the follow-up though, because today's more of like an overview of what it is and kind of some some thoughts around how it came about.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think next time we're gonna dive a little more in it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a little more science-y, but we'll really try to kind of keep it um understandable in a way that you know makes sense.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um kind of diving into the actual diving deeper into the mechanisms of how zone two might be beneficial, but also pulling in some of the other zones and the benefits of those zones and why then kind of pulling it all together, a review of why we maybe don't want to just be doing zone two, because there's actual benefit and some of it overlaps a little bit.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like there may be some of the benefits of a zone two may also be found in other zones.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to keep that in mind.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think just today is more of an overview of what it is and where it came from and you know why it might have some benefits, and then we're gonna dive deeper, I think, next time.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the plan.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um we will include in the show notes the reference to the article that we used to for the foundation of this of this episode.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a it was a 2025 review that was titled Much Ado About Zone 2: a narrative review assessing the efficacy of zone two training for improving mitochondrial capacity and cardiorespiratory fitness in the general population.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really long title, but we will we will include it into the show notes.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I may also include uh a reference to uh the famous book written by Matt Fitzgerald.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's the 8020 endurance, it's a complete his his system uh for high performance coaching.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just so that I'm fully transparent and the information that I'm I'm using and that we're using to pull into this article, you can then walk away, go read the article for yourself, get Matt's book, uh, and you can like read his coaching philosophy because I think that that's that has found that what I would I would say is the foundation of the modern zone two training coaching model.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that and probably like there's others as well that have kind of really what's the um oh, let me think of it, anyways, um maphetone, Phil Mafitone also has a lot of you know, really focuses on like easy zone two running.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there are others, uh and I think some of these philosophies are kind of like, oh, I think that the Phil Mafitone, and then there's a whole method that goes with that for calculating zone two.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: That particular um, I guess, methodology is sort of where I think this like run easy to go fast sort of concept came from.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I think a lot of the claims that is m are made there are that, oh, you you know, you run enough in zone two, eventually your resting heart rate will go down and you're going to, you know, your heart rates will come down.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you can run faster in that same heart rate zone.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um unfortunately, I think there's some, you know, maybe maybe some um truth to that, but there's also some kind of myth to that where I think a lot of people have maybe gone down that road and they're especially if they're new to it, they're maybe getting, you know, faster, but it doesn't work forever.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just keep running, running slow and running more and more and more and more in zone two.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the other problem is there's a limitation to our time.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a big piece that I want to bring in here is not all of us have hours and hours to spend in zone two, is where maybe we would see some of that sort of benefit.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what if you only have six hours to train?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not gonna tell that person's, I mean, honestly, probably not gonna get the same benefit as if someone had 15 hours to train or something like that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we also have to kind of think of it from different perspectives.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I do um, and it's interesting because I I think, yeah, some of like Matt Fitzgerald off obviously brings in some higher zone stuff for the 8020.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, but does that sort of exact, you know, we'll talk about that a little more, that exact percentage.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what everybody should be doing?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I personally don't like to ride my hat on any sort of like particular methodology, because then you sort of get stuck in that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the Phil Mafitone method, like he's now stuck, you know, in that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't, what if he changes his mind or more research comes out and shows us, hey, actually we don't need to be in zone two, we need to do these other zones, which actually it has potentially.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, um, then you're kind of stuck in that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as a coach, I I sort of come at it like there's a lot of different tools in the tool belt, right, for training.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like some things can get us to the same, uh, the same benefit maybe for less time, or maybe that you'll get to that same sort of benefit using another tool.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I have all of these different things I can kind of utilize with my athletes, and depending on their unique situation, I'm sort of using those different methods.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody, I might have an athlete that actually I am doing a lot of zone two with because they have the time and maybe I feel like they would benefit from that, but there may be somebody else that I'm like, that's not gonna really work.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like hopefully we come from this discussion a little bit, like there is no specific methodology that is gonna work for everybody.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And how much zone two somebody does may differ a little bit from person to person, and maybe hopefully we can help people figure out what that might be for them a little bit better or coming to what conclusion.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't have like a specific sort of training method methodology that I always adhere to.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of pick what what works from different things, you know, and um pull it all together into a plan.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: The decision that I make is going to be a function of who the athlete is that I'm working with and where we are in the annual training plan.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there may be times of the year where the predominance of their training should be in zone two because we're focusing on let's say uh aerobic capacity.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I want a lot of, you know, just zone two, just easy stuff.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're just we're laying the foundation uh that we're gonna build a house on later.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I'll do is I'll use zone two for the aerobic stuff because maybe we're spending a bunch of time in the weight room getting stronger.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want the these two uh phases of training, these two focuses of training in terms of strength and aerobic capacity to fight against each other.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to find a way to make them play nice in the sandbox.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I may say, well, now we're going to do a lot of zone two stuff because we're spending a lot of time in the weight room getting stronger, but then that model changes as we get deeper into the season and maybe we start doing some specificity and some like race adaptation kind of stuff where the weight room falls off, but now I have to increase intensity within the training plan.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we're coming away from zone two stuff because we've we've already laid the foundation.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're just constantly doing zone two, all you're just laying, you're just laying laying and laying and laying on the foundation.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, we're building a button.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: At some at some point in time, you gotta build the freaking house.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, it's you know otherwise you're just gonna have a really thick concrete slab, but you've got nothing built on top of it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're just like, well, where's my race performance?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you have to you have to do something different.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's a great way to look at it too.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna change a little bit depending on where you're at with your race and you know, how because it does build a really good foundation and we can kind of talk about that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think sometimes the amount you spend doing it, you know, kind of depends a little bit on the individual circumstances too.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think I do a like you said, that's exactly how I train um myself for athletes kind of in the off season, sort of or in the in-between or in the base phase is it is a lot more of that really easy running.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I will call it, you know, probably if it's easy, it's probably mostly in zone two.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, you know, maybe strength and short little bouts of fast stuff, but the percentage of it is much higher.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then as they kind of get closer and closer to the race, the percentages of where they're at and what zones they're at will change.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, no training plan should always have the same percentages of zones throughout.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's going to change and and there's going to be things that you're doing more of and things you're doing less of.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just part of it, you know, how a good training plan is put together.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think thinking of it not as like it always has to be 80-20 or some sort of percentage all the time, but it may change a little bit, and that's okay.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so kind of think of it more as like a fluid, like the ch the zones, the percentage you're you're in the zones will sort of change and it's not like a a hard and fast rule.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of where I want hopefully people to come come out of this.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um where do we want to start?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do we want to talk about how they're how we're defining it?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, let's talk about the definition of zone two.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: What does what does zone two even mean?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think we kind of hinted at it already, but a little bit like our Yeah.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at it in terms of you know physiology and like the s the science-y definition of it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So in the article that that we referenced, they they generally characterize zone two.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't I don't think that they actually go in and like define what does zone two means.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think they have to just kind of reach a general conclusion as to what it means.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So zone two is exercise below the first lactate threshold.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we wanted to put some some science behind it, it's typically with a blood lactate below roughly two millimoles per liter is what is how they're classifying zone two.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh let's talk about that a little bit.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kate, I mean, Katie, you have more of of the science background than I do.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was an economics major.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, can can you shed a little bit of light on this from from from your point of view?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Really, it's just kind of where you can have like that lactate should that amount of like that lactate, you know, under two millimoles per liter should be where you could comfortably be at for like hours.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like essentially, like it's it's kind of as lactate starts to increase, then you kind of get into um past lactate, like the that first threshold, which is typically two millimoles per liter, and then you're kind of going up and up.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a point at which, you know, the lactate just kind of like really you cannot sustain it any longer, it just continues to kind of go up and up if you go faster and faster.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So this is kind of that like a very sustainable effort.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: It should Not be producing enough like you know metabolic byproducts, so to speak, to really cause a lot of fatigue.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a nice steady blood lactate level that you know our body can can utilize.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, lactate will go to the liver through something called the quarry cycle and be reutil basically like reutilized into glucose and and and and fuel.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is steady.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Your body can do that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not accumulating so much that now we're not really able to keep up with that, you know, um amount of lactate in the blood, and it becomes um more problematic for us.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's and you can tell, I mean, this is this should be a zone in which you're very comfortable at for quite a while.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also like thinking about the the first ventilary ventillary threshold is also kind of what they use.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, that one's a little harder necessarily to define because we wouldn't be measuring like I don't know how easy it would be unless you have like a like a mask that you would wear for like a VO2 max test.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is essentially where maybe your your breathing, you know, steady, you're able to kind of um have that balance between the oxygen you take up and the CO2 output, and you start to be able to kind of again not keep up with what your body needs, the demands your body has for oxygen, you start to go past that capacity, and then you're kind of in this anaerobic piece.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is just where you should be able to breathe and you're never out of breath.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's kind of the way I think about this.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is why sometimes people use like the talk test as a way to determine if you're in zone two.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: You should be able to breathe and maybe have be able to have a conversation and not be out of breath.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of think of that when I think of ventilary, ventilatory threshold.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm not saying I didn't think I said it right the first time.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so those are, I think, science.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the way I would sort of put put that out there.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is, again, um this is scientifically where we're defining it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm hoping one day we have a just like a continuous glucose monitor.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, wouldn't it be cool if one day we have a continuous lactate monitor we could throw on our arm just like a glucose monitor?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because it would be really cool to be able to, and you'd have to have it like somehow linked to your garment and you could just see like where you're at with your lactate at all times.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because you'd be able to probably keep and like figure this out real quick, and you would know, like, oh, day to day that might change.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like your like um LT1 might be higher or lower depending on different factors going on, you know, day to day.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so you'd actually be able to measure it and see and be able to stay exactly in zone two, but we don't have that ability.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: The closest we can do is lactate meters, which I don't know about you, Justin.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like the little finger pricks that you're you're actually like doing like blitzing.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I don't like finger pricks.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I really do not.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And second of all, I it's just like how annoying would that be every I don't know how many, how often would you have to do that?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like every five minutes, you know, it'd have to be fairly often to see if you were for zone two, it just seems silly, right?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like you'd have because you're going for quite a while and you'd have to pick prick your finger every so often just to check if you were below this two millimoles per liter.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be kind of silly.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know athletes use that, but they use it for usually higher intensities, um, kind of to see if they're actually in like lactate threshold like LT2 and kind of keeping themselves in those higher zones.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: But for for zone two, I think it would be silly.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, because you would be pricking your fingers.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can maybe prick your ear too and get it, but it would be it would be a pain.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how how wouldn't that that would just suck the joy right out of the run or the the workout thing?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think I feel that way.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if I had like a monitor, I might try it out and it'd be kind of cool because you wouldn't have to like have it, it'd be just kind of continuous.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe someday we'll have that.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: But for now, really there's that's the the scientific way to think of it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so then all of these companies have come in like Garmin and maybe Training Peaks has different.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the ill mafitone method is like 220, or maybe this isn't his method.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: He has a different way of calculating it, but it's that standard like 220 minus your age to get max your max heart rate, and then you have to do a percentage of that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's I mean, that probably is not correct for the majority of athletes who are at a high level, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, I don't know.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think this is where it gets a little bit tough because when we're actually defining it in terms of um any sort of heart rate zone, I think that's a a really hard uh gets really hard.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people will go, like I mentioned already, into um like a lab and have like a lactate threshold test.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's helpful, but it's only helpful for that time point in time as your um fitness improves that changes.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the zones change, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't want to get any, I mean that test, I think I've looked into it here.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a$200 test.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna get that every three times a year or something to kind of re-evaluate all your zones and they change it?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm trying to say is it's very it's very hard to know.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a way of how do you how do you know you're in zone two?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know if I'm in zone two if I feel controlled.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I like I I don't usually talk a whole lot anyway, and I've never been able to talk when I run.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I don't know.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: It it's not it hasn't been until recently that I've actually been able to talk when you know when I'm running.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I'll have friends come up to me like when I'm on the treadmill and they'll they'll talk to me.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like if I can carry on a decent conversation with them and not, you know, have to use like choppy sentences, if I'm able to get a full sentence out and but I mean I'm still breathing hard, but it's not like like I can't catch my like I can't bring in enough oxygen.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm doing something, so I'm breathing harder than I would be if I'm just sitting on the couch.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if I feel I go more by RPE and I ignore heart rate, I I don't really care because I there's so many things that biases the heart rate from from day to day that I I can't I don't rely on it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just go about and just say, you know, hey, did I feel like I could run for a long time or could I cycle for a long time at that effort, and could I have gone longer with without any issues when when I finished, then chances are I was probably in in zone two.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't try and say, you know, I'm not very scientific or very specific about it.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just go by you know feel a lot of the times, and I think that's more valuable because I can't tell you in how many races that I've I've experienced where my my technology fails.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my my garment gets that that that battery drain.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was fully charged when when I got to the race, and then all of a sudden, you know, during the race it just shuts off.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've experienced that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if I don't understand how to read the signals that my body is sending me, right, and my my effort management, and I'm relying solely on technology, then I've put myself at a disadvantage.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree with you.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good point.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a the other day I was doing a workout and my I didn't charge my garment enough, and then I didn't have time to charge it before um before the workout.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, well just hope it's I hope enough battery for it, and then I got to uh I don't know, halfway in and my my garmin died.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I just had to finish out the run, you know, hoping my heart rates were I don't know, in the right zones because I didn't have anything.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I wasn't even really looking, I was going by uh RPE anyway, but um yeah, I think it's it's important because yeah, what if that happens to you in a race?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't but I I also think it's like you make a really good point of well, we're both kind of making this point of like the zones are like day to day it changes.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what I kind of learned with the more that's what I got probably the biggest thing I got out of that Morpheus, because I was using it like and and recording all my workouts and like putting all the inputs in, and every day it changed like my zones, and I think that's the biggest thing that became the biggest frustration and the biggest like eye-opening thing for me was how much it was changing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I kind of now have gone swung the other direction, and now I go mostly off of RPE for easy running.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even I don't even wear the heart rate monitor some days on my easy runs.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I just wear my watch and it like the heart rate is probably wildly incorrect anyways because I'm just wearing it around my wrist and that's giving me a heart rate.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I don't even know where the, you know, this is probably not even correct, but I I just go by RP because I found that if I'm listening to my body and and listening to those signals, which you're I agree, it's it is kind of what you're saying.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are you controlled?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like you could go at that pace for like, you know, a couple hours or or a very long time, whatever that means for you without tiring?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, like could you really jog at that pace, you know, all day?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, essentially maybe not, maybe not all day.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, are you breathing controlled?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, taking breaths, but not like like feeling like, you know, if somebody did ask you a question, even if you're running alone, could you answer it pretty well without having to like take deep breaths in between?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Could you um under another kind of good um ways of thinking about this?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think those are the big ones, just kind of feeling like c comfortable and controlled.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's probably means that you're in zone two, you know, for the most part.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um would you come out of it maybe a little bit if you go up a hill or down, you know, or or down a hill or stuff like that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it might it might cause you to to come a little bit up into zone three or into a higher zone.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as long as you kind of maybe once you get to the top of the hill, slow it down a little bit, come back in zone two, you know, you'll s you you're still you're still gonna get the benefit of the workout.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's no issue with um with that either.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think the big thing to take away from this is that there is no unfortunately, there just is no way to um know.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you know, even if you're looking at your heart rate and it's uh telling you and there's some sort of green or red or or yellow or or color coding, don't don't freak out, I guess, if you go into another zone if you still feel comfortable.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are times when I'm running and my like I said, I don't wear my heart r heart rate monitor and I'll look down and I'm at an easy run with a friend and I'm talking and my heart rate's up at like 170 or something, and I'm like, oh, it's probably just not correct.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm just still pretty comfortable and my heart rate, something must be going on with my monitor, or and so instead of freaking out about it, just kind of really letting the um effort level that you're putting out be the guide.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to I do want to reiterate that um lactate is not a bad thing.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like the way that I like the way that you described it, and it was the accumulation of lactate um uh is is what defines like you know coming out of zone two.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean if if you search on the internet, they're actually selling products these days where people are consuming lactate because ultimately lactate is used as an energy source.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the the question is is not you know, is my body producing lactate?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is and it's fine.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: It it should be producing lactate.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: The question becomes, is it producing lactate at a rate that is higher than what the body can utilize and clear that lactate?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's where that's where the issue becomes.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you get to an intensity level where the lactate production is higher than the rate at which the body can clear that lactate out and and repurpose it, that's where you start to accumulate fatigue.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you get, you know, if you're a runner, you start to feel those tight hamstrings, your stride starts to shorten, and you know, you start to so-called hit the wall is what is is happening there.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the production of lactate is not something that we want to either minimize or stop completely, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because the only way to do that is if you're a runner is just start walking.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then you you're going you're going to be relocated to walking.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're a cyclist, you're just gonna soft pedal it and you're gonna get into the super easy gear.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way to keep it from from happening or something like that.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which is where nobody wants to be, and you shouldn't be.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I don't want people to think that this lactate is is a is a bad thing and oh it you know, it it makes my races fall apart, then you don't have a lactate problem, you have a pacing problem.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and lactates because even over two millimoles per liter, you know, and it kind of starts to creep up beyond that particular threshold.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, that's kind of where we start to maybe go into like uh maybe that sort of zone three, I guess, the great gray zone.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think about it, most of our most of our marathons are kind of sub-lactate Lt2, because most of the time that like second lactate threshold, which I think is around four millimoles per liter and above, but I'd have to double check that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they have some parameters set for where that might be.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that second, um, you know, if we run it, if we're trying to do our marathon at that level, as your lactate starts to go up too high, then you probably only have an hour or so, you know, at that higher lactate level before it becomes a more of a limitation.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I mean, it's not like all of a sudden your lactate's going up either beyond two millimoles per liter and you're not gonna be able to continue running, you know, it's just a matter of as that creeps up, like how long can you kind of maintain that lactate, you know, or that um that zone or that that that intensity of which you're at.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it's no, that lactate's is being utilized, it is being cleared and utilized for fuel, and there is actually some benefit to lactate.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, sometimes it is a little bit more about uh pushing that threshold a little bit higher potentially, or having being able to utilize even like we have to have higher lactate because we want to learn even how to utilize it better.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: The more we kind of um push ourselves a little bit, maybe beyond that, you know, two millimoles per liter, the more our body has to be pushed into learning how to utilize it better and be more efficient at utilizing it and being able to clear it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's probably where we'll talk a little bit about higher zones next time is like how the benefits for those to not always be in zone two, because at zone two, you're in this lactate level where your body is clearing it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not pushing your body to be able to clear it better.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: The question becomes, the question becomes if the predominance of your training plan is in zone two, how can you expect to execute a race plan that is outside of zone two and think that it's going to it's going to be easy or not even just easy, because at that point, all of your training has been done at an intensity level where the body hasn't had to learn how to clear that lactate, uh clear an overabundance of lactate.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let me make sure that I revise that statement.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because the lactate that you're accumulating has been at a level that the body can can utilize, and so it hasn't had to learn how to deal with excess lactate.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, unless you plan on racing at that effort, your body has your race day is going to feel super uncomfortable because you have not tra you haven't trained the system to deal with the excess lactate.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So unless you're relegated to walking the back half of of the marathon or walking the back half of the half marathon for for 70.3 or whatever, then you know, that's what your training has got you.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm thinking, um, yeah, like it's it's like if that's your expectation, is you're gonna be in training in zone two, and then somehow you're gonna get to race day and like a marathon, and now you're gonna try to race in zone three, which is typically where we would kind of actually be for a marathon, is not quite zone two, most maybe part of some of it, but it's kind of a lot in that sort of gray zone, I suppose, if you want to call it that.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you your body, yeah, your body's not gonna be used to that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't um can't expect have those types of expectations that you can just spend all of your training in one zone and then um sort of push your body uh in in a higher zone and be even used to it or be able to have some of those bad apptations that you might get from spending time at that zone.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you're absolutely right.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is where some of that, you know, methodology of just being in zone two or run easy to run fast kind of gets it wrong a little bit.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think people just they don't understand that it it it also involves running fast to run fast sometimes.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you do have to you can't just go easy and then run fast.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: You do have to run fast to run fast, you know, also.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe both.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I think I think I think that's an important thing to bring up is that that con and I'm glad you mentioned that because I don't want people to think that having lactate is bad at all.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually like a natural thing that happens and it body clears it and it uses it for fuel.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, some people I don't think there's I think the interesting thing they've done some research on like taking lactate and it doesn't seem to offer a lot of additional benefit.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we're gonna see like lactate gels anytime soon.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe there's more to it that I haven't discovered yet, but it does, it is utilized by the body and you know, maybe the brain, but usually it goes through the liver and it's kind of re reutilized that way or used into turned into fuel again that way.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so let's just talk maybe, or do we want to dive?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna dive into it?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take this one let's take this one step further a little bit.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um because what I'm thinking now is we're about forty we're close to 45 minutes into this this episode, and I think all we've done is define zone two.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go beyond that.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we've I think we've made out of the code.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I'm thinking is that before we get into the claims that this article has made, I kind of I'm thinking that we might just push those to some of the subsequent articles because I think that there's something that's really important that I want to bring up.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it may take a little bit because right now we've just addressed the the the lactate threshold one, so LT1, which is determined by blood lactate.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: I there's another there was the other method that the article was talking about, and it it was as a proportion of VO2 max, which is which you brought up earlier in terms of you know the the oxygen exchange rate, so you know how much CO2 is the body expelling at at higher intensity levels and how much oxygen are they able to bring in.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh for for zone two, the way that this article was describing is like that upper boundary of the intensity could range anywhere from 24% to 80% of VO2 max.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a broad range that I mean, what do you do with something like that?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at it in terms of a beginner athlete versus an elite athlete.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now I think this will paint a little bit of a picture that we want to fully materialize in in some of the subsequent episodes is that you know, if if you have a fairly low VO2 max because you're fairly new to endurance sports, then your zone two could be closer to that 24%.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: That that makes sense, right?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're an elite athlete or highly competitive, then that zone two is going to range at the it's going to settle in at that higher range, you know, 70 to 80 percent of your VO2 max.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that a new athlete, in order to truly stay in zone two using the VO2 max methodology, would relegate them to walking.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen this in hundreds of athletes.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I see it in thousands of conversations that I've had on on Facebook and social media where people are asking about this zone two training, and they're just like, I uh I'm running and I feel comfortable, I feel in control, but you know, my heart rate is at 170 beats a minute, and I can't get into zone two.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that this paints it's such an important point to make is that if you're new to endurance sports and you're new to like, let's say that you're just getting into running, I don't I don't even want you thinking about zones.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Stop, stop trying to hit a zone two, stop trying to follow some kind of prescribed zone methodology because you Do not have the cardiovascular fitness to even maintain those zones.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you're trying to say it's like, okay, well, I just I want to get into zone two, then just start walking because that's where you are right now in your cardiovascular fitness.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: As you get more fit, then your zones will change.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, the intensity at which you can stay in those zones will rise, and then you'll be able to truly run in zone two.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're new to it, just stop.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because it's it's hindering your progress.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's hindering for you from from moving forward.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're really brand new and you're you're you're sort of, I don't want to say like that out of shape, but like kind of like your your VO2 max is pretty low.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Your percent of the VO, you know, the percent of VO2 max where you are, you know, at your zone two, you know, you're you're it literally does delegate you to be in zone two and walking.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: It might be fine to do some walking, but you're never gonna be able to become better at running without doing some running, you know, getting some running in.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you're gonna you I don't know you know how beneficial it is to do.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you wanted to really try to kind of get some maybe the mitochondrial adaptation or really just kind of get get better, I think you could do like some longer walks and that would probably improve fitness somewhat, but you do have to start running um at some point.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think for someone like that, it is that whole concept of like stay in zone two and you're gonna get faster.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you can't just walk and walk and walk, you have you know, maybe you can, and then you can increase the intensity of which you're walking, and then you can gradually make it to running.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think in that sort of people aren't that patient.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you are, then great.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I think then it it becomes a mad.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is why I do the run-walk method with people because we don't want them if they're jacking up to a heart rate of 170, 180 every time they walk bec or run because they're just starting out.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not something you sustainable either.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can only run so much at that.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's like that's why I do that sort of concept.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, they they they they're coming in and out of zone one or zone two, because maybe when they walk, they come back down and then they, you know, spike it back up a little bit.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, maybe I'm not doing that, you know, every day.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I have them doing some days where they're kind of walking or walk trying to walk at a higher intensity or increasing the intensity of their walking.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think to add in some of that running, even though it's spiking their heart rate, because there are that is helping them adapt and get better as well.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they're actually getting used to running.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Cause you can't you get, you know, even if you do improve fitness and cardiovascular fitness with walking, it still is an adjustment to start running.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so for somebody who does want to get into running, I think adding some level, but it may be for somebody like literally 30 seconds of running and then three minutes of walking and 30 seconds of running and then 30 one minute of running, there, you know, I don't know, like it's a it's a progression that occurs and you know, they but I think they make faster improvements that way than they would be just walking.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's for somebody brand new, I think the way I would go about it would be not even really having a discussion exactly about you need to be in zone two, or it'd be how are we gonna get you to the point where you can run consistently for 10 minutes without spiking your heart rate, you know, nearly up to your VO2 max, you know, your VO2 max heart rate, or like getting you into this like high almost max level heart rate.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's try to kind of like gradually get you there.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's kind of how I would go about it.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um the way that I think about it though is that if that's the way that if that's the method, then it it takes years in order to get to to build that adaptation.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember and I mean I was I wasn't new to the sport, but you know, I was maybe a couple years into it.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when I would run, my heart rate would jump right up to like 165, 175, no matter how easy I felt like I was running, and I was feeling like I was running in control.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I say I'm running in control, that means that I'm actually holding a line and that you know I have full control over my arm swing and my run stride.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not over striding, I don't feel wobbly and off balance, so I'm holding a line and I I feel in control of my body.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean by by running controlled.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it took me, it has taken me years now to get that to a point where now I'm running and my heart rate stays about 145 to 150 running at what I call a controlled effort.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh unless you're willing to be that patient, I mean, then then I just go for it.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with having that high elevated heart rate if your rate of perceived exertion is in what I would call a controlled effort.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's just going to take time in order to build that that aerobic capacity so that the heart doesn't feel like it has to work that hard in order to supply the blood and oxygen and everything that it needs for the body to to execute that level of effort.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think the way it was described to me was that you know, if you don't have the aerobic conditioning and now you start to run, your body learns that, oh, we're running, so it it overreacts.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it it spikes that heart rate, which is why you see it's like, okay, warm up, warm up, warm up, and it's a really flat level, and then you start to run, and it's like it shoots up to like 160, 170, 180, and it just kind of stays there, and you're like, I feel comfortable though.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why this is happening, is that the body tends to overreact, and like the body is like, okay, this is what we're doing.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know what I need to do, and it just floods the system.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then over time it learns that it doesn't have to do that, and this is why we run at different paces, we run at different efforts, and we introduce volatility and and variability in our runs.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is why, because we're teaching our body to be adaptable so that it doesn't overreact.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: But unless it overreacts, it really will never learn.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we we have to be okay with allowing that heart rate to stay elevated as long as you're willing to say and to answer the questions am I running?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Am I well, I'm assuming that you're running.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: We could be cycling, we could be swimming or whatever, whatever the sport is.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Am I executing this at an effort that is controlled?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have full control over my body?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: And do I feel like I'm moving smoothly?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I, do I feel like my movements are kind of like shaky and and sporadic, you know, or I'm like, I'm I'm basically like holding on to a rope and it's pulling me down the road.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do I feel like that's my effort?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or do I feel like I'm just kind of like holding on to that rope and there's slack in the rope and I feel in control?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then I don't care, I don't really care what your heart rate is because you're your the RPE that you're telling me is that we're at that right effort.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna take time for the body to learn how to adapt and to accommodate that so that the metrics show that you're at that level.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's I want you to be okay with it.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so when when this article was talking about, you know, this w broad range of like 24 to 80 percent of your VO2 max, that could mean for for a new athlete, that means that they're walking.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it could mean for an elite athlete that they're actually able to like cycle at like 300 watts.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where they're at like a 630 mile pace.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're like, I mean, they're they're just they're cruising because they make it look so effortless, but they're actually they're but they're generating such power and such speed, but you know, it that's their job.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's what their training has gotten there.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: They probably have a very high EO2 max and they also yeah, and they've trained it to be able to be that efficient.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, when you start out, like there's a lot of things you're not your your body's not used to it, you don't have a lot of efficiency in your movements.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes even if you feel controlled, there's still a lot of like inefficiencies kind of in movement that you know you are accounting for that a little bit.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what running, that's why you run, because you don't you can't like not you you have to run in order for the body to yeah, get used to running and then the heart rate to get used to the running and to be able to start to get used to the movement itself and your body will you you're kind of start to tighten up some some of those um you know, inefficiencies, so to speak.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then as you become a more efficient runner, your heart rate is is better at the same pace.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too, it's like I guess I would ask somebody, is your like what is your goal with the training?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if somebody's like, hey, I just wanna, I do want some of the benefit, like the longevity benefit.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to uh be able to have more mitochondria and maybe better, you know, better utilizing fat.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe somebody is insulin resistant and they have they're really not very good at utilizing fat.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have a lot of mitochondria, they're trying to improve insulin resistance, like they're just very unhealthy and they want to start using zone two uh training for that reason, and it's longevity and they're you know, just health, then fine, just walk.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if somebody's coming to me and they're like, I want to start running, I want to do a 5K, I wanna be better at running, then you have to run, you know, like and in that the so what's your goal?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, there is some benefits like that to zone two.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think over time, you know, as we're running more and getting more efficient and you can spend some more time and lower heart rate, you'll you'll get some of those those benefits over time.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other ways to maybe gain some of the those types of benefits as well.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I just think also you need to figure out what is your priority and what is your goal, because there's two different goals there that I just outlined.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're just like, hey, I just want to be healthy, like I want to be healthy.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: I do argue though that you probably eventually do need to do um, because VO2 Max, we talked about that a little bit, but the higher your VO2 max, the better you that that is also a marker of longevity, and you cannot improve VO2 max by doing zone two.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there are maybe other benefits to doing some other types of training as well, even for longevity.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: But um for for the purpose of this discussion, I think just kind of thinking about, yeah, for the for the beginner, like what's your goal?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to achieve?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's some sort of perfect performance-based goal or some sort of goal to be able to run an entire 5K without stopping, then yeah, if you want to do that in three years, sure.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like take it real easy and walk and build into it and build that foundation of zone two right off the bat and then you know, work into it.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want to do like most people have signed up for a 5k in um Thanksgiving or something, you know, if a 5K and they're like, hey, I want to do the turkey trot and I want to do the dire thing running, you're gonna have to run and your heart rate is going not going to be higher while you're running.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's gonna be okay, you know, and then you're getting benefits from that.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you're just totally, you know, getting no benefit at all.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're still getting um performance and health benefits.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: So and we'll talk a little bit, I think, then more in depth about like I think that's what we were kind of wanting to put put out next time is some of the more the the adaptations from the different zones, maybe more so next time, and how some of them may overlap.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think Yeah, I I think the important con the important conclusion that comes from this zone two discussion is that it it's not a universal workload.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the that's the word that's the phrasing that I want to to emphasize is is workload.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because my job as a coach is to manage stress.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not to manage pace, it's not to manage power, it's to manage stress.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, if you think about it in terms of like, okay, I'm working with with a new athlete or I'm working with an elite athlete who's, you know, going to Kona, you know, is reaching podiums and things like that, the approach that I would use with them are completely different on opposite sides of the spectrum.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so while their zone twos are going to be relatively different based on where they are, the dosages that I would prescribe to each of them are going to be vastly different.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason that I want to say this is that in my recap from from the Patriot race, I think this was episode uh what was it?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Episode episode 119 uh that I talked about this.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And towards the end of that episode, this is something that's occurred to me and it's like it's blown my mind.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's there's three what I would classify as three levels of preparedness.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: The first level is like we have preparedness to complete, then we have preparedness to perform, and then we have preparedness to compete.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: And these are three different approaches to training.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love the way that this has kind of come together.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's taken years for me to figure this out.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this Patriot race was like the light bulb that finally went off.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think that if you want to implement a method that is basically strictly zone two kind of stuff, I think that that is a viable method if your goal is to be prepared to complete, if you just want to finish whatever it is that that you're doing, then by all means uh stick with zone two stuff.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's fantastic.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to perform, then there's going to have to be a mix of intensities that lie outside of zone two.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: Same way is same same if you are there to perform.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, perform is where you know my goal is I want to hold this level of power on the bike.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to not see any decline.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want to keep my heart rate fairly steady with just a small cardiac drift throughout throughout the effort.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get off the bike and and run a controlled whatever distance it is.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to negative split the run, or I want to implement a progressive run where each mile is faster than the last.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's preparedness to perform.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a particular method that we would implement in order to generate performance.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that I want to make that distinction between performance and competing is that I'm not taking into account what others are doing.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm solely looking at what it is that how you want to execute your plan.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's performance.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I can I can write a program that that practices negative splits.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: I can write programs that that do race race power efforts at at intervals that that will show us that you can hold that power for for that kind of duration.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now when it comes time to prepare this to compete, we have to take a look at what others are doing.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: How what effort do you have to execute in order to beat the others?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've I would come out on a limb and just say that there's going to be a fairly small proportion of your training plan that's probably going to be in zone two.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you sprinkle them in when they're needed, but you know, I I don't implement a whole lot of zone two training for those athletes where we're looking for for podiums and you know, because I have I should be able to sequence the workouts in a way that still allows the the athlete to adapt and absorb and recover and still have intensity.
• 1:01:03
  unknown: Right.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now I control the duration of the intensity within each session, but I sequence them in a way that that spreads that intensity out.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: So even though I may use very a small proportion of zone two for the entire week, there are there's a strategic thought process that goes into how we lay this out.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I would dare to say that if you're grabbing training plans off of the internet or you're getting some some chat GPT stuff, I don't know how the thought process that goes into creating these these canned, like, you know, just generic training plans where you're going to see a lot of zone two stuff in there because that's how it sells, that's how it fits to the masses.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the general population.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're catering to a large group rather than catering to you specifically.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, because there's probably is gonna be a lot of easy, like, oh, just run five miles easy, or like, you know, in between, not like not a lot of um other intensities.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: So comparing where I'm at now to where I'm at with my um marathon training, so even depending on the type of race you're doing, like these high this high rocks training involves a lot of intensity.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not even like you know, if the zone two benefits are at like 60 to 90 minutes, I don't think I've even done a single run.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe outside of maybe an easier like 60 minute run here and there or a long run.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I've even now with my long runs, that's because so much of the high rocks is in throat, like that lactate, like your zone, you're hitting lactate threshold and you're trying to freaking maintain that as long as it's you're redlining it kind of, you know, not at your very highest, but you're the race itself is just trying to hold on to that like lactate threshold LT2, sort of the whole time.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: So like a lot of my training and some or at least a good amount of my training is trying to be comfortable and and be able to um know what that feels like and then also be able to push that a little bit higher and be able to be at that in that lactate threshold a little bit longer, right?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: How long can I be there?
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um so now like I'm training, I do some like just to I'll talk a lot more about my training for it, you know, in my recaps of the high ROX, but I do some speed work, like faster than, you know, like my 5k pace or maybe a little bit faster.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: But the the actual time I'm doing the high ROX workouts, it's usually like pretty high intensity lactate threshold.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not those aren't easy.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: So a good amount of those workouts are quite hard pushing my heart rate.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then my long runs have now incorporated more lactate threshold training into the long run.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the long run now is not an easy zone two effort.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, how can I fit this in?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and I have to do these longer threshold workouts.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm doing like the other day, I did four times 10 minutes at lactate threshold pace, pushing it, you know, as I'm like, that's and that took me nine miles.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's my long run for the most part, nine or ten miles right now.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sort of maximizing my time that way.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I do have some easy running in between, but it's not usually very much time.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually like maybe three or four miles, maybe six at the most in between.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's easy.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of in zone two.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: So a good half of my training at least is probably at that lactate threshold or higher or in zone three, kind of in between, maybe, but it's not, it's definitely not um, yeah, it's definitely not, you know, 80-20 at this point because I'm trying to get these adaptations and be ready and maximize my time.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I only have so much time, you know.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: If I had more time, maybe I would do more training, easy run, like longer easy runs, but right now I don't.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I'm trying to just maximize for performance, and that's how I'm having to do it.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: Versus if I'm in a middle of a marathon build, because there's so much more volume, you know, I'm running more, I'm not doing these other high-intensity, like high rocks type workouts.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: Probably it's more like 70-30, like 70%.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a lot more zone two.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: And even thinking about it even more, it's like you don't have to have always very like you don't always have to be specifically doing a zone two workout.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can't, like a lot of times we have zone two mixed in with other zones.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and that's okay.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay if you do zone two as a warm up and then you do, you know, zone other another higher zone, and then come back into zone two and go, like, you're still getting benefit from that.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean there's no benefit to it.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think zone two is really important.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: Lastly, you know, I want to make this point.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is important.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: We need to go easy.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: We can't go hard every day.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to be able to do higher zones every day.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: That is why having those easy days.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think zone two has kind of become popular because people want to have something to define easy, you know.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if they have a hard time like keeping themselves in line.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like, oh, if I have a zone, then I'll know I can stay in that zone.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I there's a parameter for me to be in.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's really just should be thought of as those easy training runs in between some of your harder runs, and that that is should all be easy.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that is essentially what zone two is.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we need those days.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's important.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: We just don't necessarily need to have every day all the time be easy, right?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want people I don't want people to think that, you know, oh, well, there's there's hardly any zone two stuff in his training plans because I mean that's that's not the point that I'm trying to make.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if if it came across like that, that's not that's not what I was trying to say.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think so, but I just want to make sure we clarify it's not like you don't need it at all.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's there's times for specificity.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are times when when zone two should be the predominant composition of of our training.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you get closer to race day, then you have to start to generate some kind of specificity and adaptation.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to accommodate for the higher intensity, you have to drop duration, right?
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: In order to maintain train load training load, total stress onto the body.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when you make those when you make those decisions on how to have that mix, there are gives and there's give and take to to the equation.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you do to one side of the equation, you have to do the opposite to the other in order to keep the equation balanced, right?
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I yeah, I don't want people to think that, oh well, now I'm just going to go threshold every single day.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's definitely not what what I'm getting at.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a time and place to where we should be going hard.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you're training for an Iron Man or some longer endurance event, there is justification for having intensity in your training plan.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's because a lot of Ironmen will come to me and it's like, oh well, you know, it's it's a zone two effort kind of day, so all of my training should be in zone two.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely not.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_00: We should we should have some intensity that's in that plan.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um whether it makes the race day quote unquote feel easier because you trained at some higher you did have some intensity in the plan, I don't I don't know if that's really the justification for it, but I mean if if you're gonna continue to train in zone two, zone two is always going to feel hard.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where you missed.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think if we think of it this way, like, wouldn't you wouldn't it be nice if your zone two was you were able to go faster in zone two?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's amazing to me that like elite athletes can be in like a 630 pace and I'm over here like dying and they're in their zone two, right?
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's amazing.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously they're like a freak of nature, no, but they're like well-trained individuals and have usually some sort of genetic piece there that makes them um uh able to do that.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I'm not promising that people would be able to get there, but whatever, you know, it's just you want, I think when you're thinking about it in terms of performance, like if you're always training in zone two, there's a limitation to how fast you can get in that zone.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: That I think some people claim that you can eventually get faster, but I really think there's a limitation to it, and it's gonna take a really, really long time.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's other ways you can improve um, you know, by just improving VO2 max or running efficiency, and sometimes running in those faster paces helps you with those little things that make you able to run in zone two at a faster pace.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that easy pace is now faster.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go faster, your race is faster, right?
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I think of it, anyways.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you you're now able to be comfortably running at instead of maybe a 10-minute mile, now you're able to stay in that comfortable zone at a nine-minute mile.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for a rate, for a running, this is just or for maybe for biking, it's like now you can do, you know, 18 miles an hour on the bike, where you could comfortably only do 16 miles, you know, per hour on the bike, and now you're, you know, comfortable at this slightly faster pace.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, now you finish the race faster, right?
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're always doing zone two, though, I don't think you really I mean, maybe you can eventually get there as you get some of these adaptations, but there's only a max amount of mitochondrial density and fat adaptations you can get.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of where the majority of the adaptation for zone two is.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you can only maximize that to a point, and then there's other adaptations you can pull from to be faster at that easy pace, right?
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think people need to kind of think of it and why that, you know, I think that brings up, I don't know, I'm just trying to explain what you're trying to say.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I hope that makes sense.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're unless you're willing to commit to years of training, then then by all means execute that method.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Years and like time.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because you it's gonna take you a really long time to do that.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you need at least 60 or 90 minutes.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, supposedly, I think that's kind of what they've concluded for some of these adaptations.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Although I don't know if I agree with that exactly, but let's say every time you run, you have to do at least 60 to 90 minutes to get some sort of adaptation from zone two, and then it's just a little bit of an adaptation, a tiny you know, you get a tiny bit of adaptation.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's gonna take you s so much time and so much, you know.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like why would you I mean there's a benefit to it, but you d yeah, I don't know.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, unless you really want to just keep plugging away for years for for months and years, and and maybe habitually, yeah, maybe you'll be able to get to the same spot.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I don't know about you.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't have at this point, I'm 43.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have I've I think I've pretty much already, like with all the years of training, have already maximized that like piece of it, I guess you could say.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's um kind of like now I'm like, I I don't have that kind of time.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you, just I don't have three years to say like I'm gonna try only I don't either.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I'm 49 years old, so I mean I'm I'm entering into a new age category next year.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I want to maximize my performance now.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I don't know.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think all the other things come going on with aging is just gonna mitigate whatever benefit I get from only the zone two.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, uh that's I mean, I've I've started plotting out my my off-season training plan uh before training for the next big race uh starts in December.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I've started thinking it's like I'm sitting back in a there's a lot of zone two that's going to be in this training plan.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason that I did it that way is because I'm spending a lot more time in the weight room.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I didn't want to rob me of the gains there by overextending on the aerobic side.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing just enough to kind of like maintain a little bit, maintain my fitness without and knowing that well, I'm not gonna really like increase it that much.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: If I could just maintain it, but I can get stronger, then that maintenance is going to feel easier when it comes time to really start the training because I'm gonna be so much stronger and more durable.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's that's the approach that I really like is that there's a time and place for the zone two, and then there's a time and place for it's like, okay, we we have to move on from zone two.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: But right, yeah.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and just like this episode, uh we better move on.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think actually I I kind of think that we should just kind of like wrap this thing up.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I think we've we've we've we've talked enough about that.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've set the table well.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_00: We set the table well.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we've set the table well for what zone two is and kind of like how we think about it in terms of of coaches and athletes, but there's more to this discussion to come.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And specifically, there are three claims that are within this article that I think are really valid claims on on the efficacy of zone two training, and I I don't want to rob it of its importance.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so we're gonna come back with with some more episodes on this topic because this is such I knew that this was gonna happen, that this is such a big topic, and I think we're both are like really passionate about training and like you know, different methods and models, and you know, really kind of pigeonholing ourselves into like this, you know, this zone two model just doesn't fit well.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I have a feeling that there's gonna be more discussion to come.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really kind of excited now about about this topic.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this is gonna wrap it up uh for for this for this episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank you guys for for tuning in.
• 1:15:12
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• 1:15:30
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• 1:15:36
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• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to sit through commercials through through the episode.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this was really important to both Katie and I when we we came up with this idea of doing this podcast.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that means that all of the expenses of hosting this podcast come out of our own pocket.
• 1:15:56
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• 1:15:59
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• 1:16:01
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• 1:16:06
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• 1:16:15
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• 1:16:18
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• 1:16:20
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• 1:16:22
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• 1:16:25
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• 1:16:35
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• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Those are greatly appreciated.
• 1:16:44
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• 1:16:45
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• 1:16:51
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• 1:17:02
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• 1:17:05
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• 1:17:12
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• 1:17:14
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• 1:17:24
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• 1:17:26
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• 1:17:28
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• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you can follow along uh with us.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're also active coaches, so we're bringing on athletes onto our roster.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you're at all interested in looking for a coach, if you're just tired of trying to find workouts, you're tired of the generic plans from the internet, or Chat GPT just isn't giving you the performance that you're looking for, then we hope that you'll consider one of us as one of your coaches.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to reach out to Coach Katie, you can go to Fuel, the number two run.com.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: She does dietetics for all sports and run run coaching.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you want multi-sport coaching or single sports, so I do swim, bike, run, gravel biking, uh, trathlon, all the stuff.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do one-on-one coaching as well as custom training plans.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can go to tabula rasseracing.com and you can send me a message.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Both of us have tons of content that's on our individual websites, blogs and videos, and all kinds of stuff that that'll help you and all kinds of different resources.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So do your due diligence.
• 1:18:30
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• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's all the stuff that's on our website.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you guys for reaching out.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we hope that you'll reach out.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you if you have.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, this has been episode what 122 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been your host, Coach Justin, along with Coach Katie.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for tuning in and the support you continue to show.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see you all again next time.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, bye-bye, everyone.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Lessons that carry far beyond the workout.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts, it comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Have questions or comments about the podcast?
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_00: For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at fuel the number two run dot com and Coach Justin at taboularasta racing.com.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, and remember to find joy in the journey.