Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #74: Interview with Freek van Welsenis, Co-Founder, Hable

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #74: Interview with Freek van Welsenis, Co-Founder, Hable · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:00
Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions.
0:04
I can't see it. ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public
0:06
entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs,
0:06
reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be
0:06
read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not
0:06
compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation
0:06
of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the
0:06
leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to
0:06
you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of
0:06
pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a
0:06
fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you
0:06
know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible?
1:22
Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her
1:29
biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
1:33
Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
1:36
insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
1:40
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
1:44
especially kids with disabilities.
1:47
Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
1:51
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
1:54
law graduate, and podcast commentator.
1:58
She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
2:02
skills and expertise in access technology and information.
2:07
As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
2:11
she just wants to make things better than possible.
2:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
2:24
I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
2:31
through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism.
2:36
I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
2:40
author, lifelong career barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
2:47
You may know me from a few headline moments.
2:51
In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian
2:58
government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
3:03
not just to cited ones.
3:05
And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
3:14
disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
3:21
And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled.
3:28
Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to
3:35
removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery
3:43
studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
3:48
producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
3:53
gadgets talk back in plain language.
3:57
Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
4:04
everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
4:12
policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
4:19
Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's
4:29
guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying
4:37
to build, Freek van Welsenis, I hope I got that correct?
4:43
Freek van Welsenis: Hi. Yes, Freek van Welsenis.
4:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Welcome to my show. I am very pleased to have you as a guest.
4:52
Welcome.
4:53
Freek van Welsenis: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
4:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So let's start with question one.
5:03
So Freek I'd love to start with your quotation.
5:09
You've spoken spoken about growing up with siblings affected by disability.
5:17
What did you see firsthand that made you determined to build something that helps
5:27
people to participate fully in society?
5:32
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So I I grew up with two siblings with disabilities.
5:38
And both my both my parents work work in healthcare with people with disabilities.
5:44
So from a very young age, I was surrounded by people with all sorts of
5:50
disabilities. And one thing that always fascinated me was the,
5:54
the part that technology can either be like a huge enabler or it can be the most
5:59
frustrating thing that exists.
6:02
And like that's that's contrast to something that's just sweet.
6:07
That stayed with me as I went to high school and later to university,
6:11
and I just felt like technology could be the most amazing thing if we build it right and
6:16
if we build the right things.
6:18
And if we would build it for everyone and that's and that's the thing that kind of led
6:23
me to this path of, of cable and building assistive technology,
6:27
because I feel like if you use technology the right way,
6:30
that is where we can make where we can make a difference instead of making it the worst
6:34
thing for many people.
6:38
That's where it comes from.
6:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. As someone who is blind myself, I am always curious how allies learn
6:51
to truly Get it. How did having parents who are social workers shape
7:01
your understanding of independence, dignity and practical support?
7:10
Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think I think being surrounded by my by my siblings and my parents,
7:15
it taught me a lot. But I think the first thing that it taught me is that I probably
7:20
well, I probably I don't really get it.
7:21
So I can learn a lot from people with disabilities,
7:24
but I can never think that I've any lived experience.
7:29
Even though I know many people with disabilities, that is, I think the most
7:32
important thing that I learned throughout my childhood is that no matter the ideas we have
7:36
about assistive technology, no matter the, the things we have about
7:41
developing a product or making it better, the one thing I learned is that I don't know
7:45
what the right way forward is, and I should always do that with people who
7:49
have the disability that we're designing for.
7:52
So I think the, the, my honest answer is that I don't get it.
7:56
And that's, I think the thing to get that I need to make sure that I'm surrounded by
8:01
people who do and who can really make sure that we're,
8:04
we're moving forward and that we're always working with a community of people who will
8:08
be using our products, that they decide on what the next steps are.
8:13
That's I think, my most important part. And that just means listening a lot,
8:17
asking people what how to move forward and and working with our customers,
8:22
our community to make sure we do the right things.
8:24
That's for me, the the biggest learning I got from from my youth and my my surroundings.
8:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think a lot of people should be listening more carefully to what you've just said,
8:35
because too many people, I don't know, they just think that,
8:39
oh, we know what to do.
8:40
We can tell you what to do.
8:41
And I'm saying, but I'm the blind person.
8:43
You're the sighted person.
8:45
How can you tell me what to do?
8:47
And how can I tell you what to do?
8:49
You know.
8:49
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, exactly. Because I've had so many conversations,
8:53
especially with people maybe who are a bit more new to this, and they say, well, I can,
8:57
I can mimic that I'm not I can try, but I'm keeping my eyes close to this product
9:02
and I'm like, that's that's nowhere near nowhere near an experience of,
9:06
like, nowhere near a good test to do this.
9:09
It's really about doing this with people with the disability who are going to test it,
9:14
who are going to work with it. They should decide on the next steps.
9:17
That's the most important thing.
9:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, when someone says, well, I can close my eyes and I can tell I
9:23
said, no, you can't, don't don't even go there.
9:27
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, please don't go there.
9:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean no you're not you're not really understanding.
9:33
Yeah, yeah. No cable or cable.
9:39
How do you pronounce it?
9:40
Freek van Welsenis: Habal habal.
9:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Habal Habal grew out of.
9:44
And I'm going to hope and pray that I pronounce this properly.
9:49
Indoor Haven University of Technology's innovation space.
9:57
Okay. Can you take me back to that student environment?
10:02
And what problems were you trying to solve?
10:07
And what made you realize that it could become a real company?
10:15
Freek van Welsenis: So first of all, sorry for all those Dutch names.
10:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay.
10:20
Freek van Welsenis: I know the Netherlands has some impossible words,
10:23
but. Yeah. No, I.
10:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Think it's cool.
10:26
Freek van Welsenis: Okay, great. Yeah. So I studied at at the Eindhoven University,
10:31
and this is where this is where Hable came on my path.
10:34
So I met my co-founder, Usman, and Usman had a grandfather who was
10:41
blind, and he simply said Ayushman came from India,
10:45
but he studied in the Netherlands. And he said, every time I'm calling back home every
10:49
time I'm texting to my family at home.
10:52
They are always picking up the phone, and I'm not able to directly speak with my
10:56
grandfather or for him to pick up the phone.
10:59
And he said, But I'm a technical student, I study design,
11:01
I feel like I should be able to make something,
11:03
build something so he can do it on his own.
11:06
And that's where we started as naive students who thought,
11:09
let's just fix this problem and and see what we can do.
11:13
And very early on, we realized that the only way to do this,
11:18
or the only way to work on this, was to surround ourselves by people with
11:21
blindness in the Netherlands, so we could do a lot of the testing and
11:24
designing. And as we were doing this those people that we were working with,
11:30
they told us, well, but I also want to have the device at some time.
11:33
Right. Like, I'm, I'm doing so much work and it's now getting to a place where I'm also
11:38
just starting to rely on it and use it a lot.
11:41
So, yeah, can can we get the product from you and then me and you realize,
11:46
well, that's a good question. We don't actually know. So we kind of accidentally
11:51
turned into a company.
11:53
We were just trying to solve this problem, and then we realized,
11:56
well, we need to go to the next level if we don't want to do it well.
11:59
And we really, like, need to build a product that people really can rely on.
12:04
And that's and that's where the real journey started. So we,
12:06
we just surround ourselves by people to build like make the product better.
12:11
We raised investments and yeah, we grew into we grew into a company.
12:16
But it was honestly it was more of an accident that we grew into it than than the
12:20
idea.
12:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
12:22
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.
12:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have a quick question for you.
12:25
Technical question. I just updated the iPhone 16 E,
12:31
and the table that I bought about two years ago can't seem to pair with my phone.
12:38
Is it because my my cable is an older version?
12:43
Freek van Welsenis: No. It should. I actually have the same phone,
12:46
and it works with my phone.
12:47
I think it might still be paired to the other phone.
12:50
Could that be possible? Like that? It's still pairing to the other phone.
12:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope not, but I'm going to take a closer look at it this weekend because we have a
12:58
holiday on Monday, so I'll have a bit more time.
13:01
Yeah.
13:01
Freek van Welsenis: Okay, okay. I think that's it.
13:03
And otherwise just let me know.
13:04
I have a few ways that I could troubleshoot.
13:07
It should work.
13:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
13:09
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Yeah.
13:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you were building a table while still in graduate studies.
13:16
What were the hardest part of being a student and running a fast moving startup at the
13:26
same time? And what habits helped you survive that season?
13:34
Freek van Welsenis: So I think that starting a company as a student,
13:37
of course, there's the big downside of that.
13:39
You are also doing your studies.
13:41
So I was always I always had too little time to do what I wanted to achieve in a week.
13:47
But there's also, I think, a big benefit in that as a student,
13:50
you don't need like many funds, so you can fully focus and put everything you
13:55
have into your startup.
13:58
And you have a lot of flexibility. I didn't have a family yet,
14:01
depending on me. I didn't have any like, any very strict rules.
14:06
So I could just really go all in on just my, my startup and my studies and that that
14:11
helped a lot. So it although it were like a lot of hours and long weeks,
14:15
the flexibility helped out.
14:17
So I think that was actually it was not it's not as difficult as it would seem to combine
14:22
it to. I think it actually might be more difficult at a,
14:24
at a later stage to do that.
14:27
Yes. And in terms of the, in terms of the habits,
14:29
I think the one thing that really helped me is just that I just enjoyed it a lot.
14:34
Yeah. The work is the work we do, although it's really challenging.
14:38
It's so much fun because you get you get to speak with so many different people.
14:43
I get you get so much appreciation.
14:45
It's so fun to quickly like to work on a product,
14:48
make design changes. It's just so I think that whole excitement just helped a lot in in
14:54
kind of going through that phase and, and growing.
14:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear the excitement in your voice.
15:01
I really can, and I think it's so great when,
15:03
you know, there's a difference between someone who enjoys what they're doing,
15:08
as opposed to someone who is only doing it because they're being told to do it,
15:14
you know?
15:15
Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think so, too. I think I'm very lucky,
15:17
to be honest, that I can work on something I enjoy so much.
15:20
I think it's it's a it's a great thing to have now.
15:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In the early days, people appeared to have been largely like what we call bootstrapped.
15:33
Okay? Leaning on on prizes and on competitions and incubators.
15:42
How did you fund development and manufacturing when resources were tight?
15:52
And what would you do differently now?
15:56
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, that is a good question. So I think I think at the start we were we were just very
16:03
creative with everything we had.
16:05
So we had we had a lot of like hours that we could put into it as students.
16:09
And we had a lot of the facilities from the university. So that helped us a lot.
16:12
When we did early prototyping with 3D printing,
16:16
with working on electronics, we did our own programming.
16:19
So that made us really lean as they would say.
16:22
So we could just lean on our own on our own hours to make big changes.
16:27
And then we just applied to many pitching competitions,
16:31
startup competitions to kind of get a little bit of funds into,
16:35
to grow and to develop the product further.
16:38
But at some stage, like if I think at least this is my,
16:42
my, my vision is that at some page, when you're when you know you're going to
16:45
develop the product and, and a lot of people are going to use it and
16:48
they're gonna rely on it, I, it has to be of a certain quality.
16:52
So at some point maybe okay, this is really solving a problem.
16:55
There's really a lot of people who want this.
16:58
And then we need to get an actual actual funds to do this and to professionally
17:04
develop this product. And, and I'm very happy we ended up doing that and
17:08
that we were able to, like, raise the capital for it.
17:11
Because the reliability is still one of the most important things,
17:15
I think, with a product like this.
17:17
So what would what would I, what would I do differently now?
17:22
I think maybe we should have taken that step a little bit earlier.
17:27
So we were we I think we took a little too long with designing and getting more and more
17:32
feedback. And although that's really good, it took us like a long,
17:35
long time. And if we maybe got in a bit more funds earlier,
17:38
we could have speed up the whole process.
17:42
All in all though, for like I was 21 when I started with the company,
17:46
I think for that age I think it was fine.
17:48
I think we learned so much in the progress in the process.
17:50
So I'm not I'm not too harsh on myself in this case.
17:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many years how many years did it take you to,
18:00
to bring this to fruition or to get results to start with?
18:04
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, it depends a bit on how how you count.
18:07
But like we became a real company in in 2021.
18:11
But already before that in 2020.
18:14
Sorry. But already before that we put in like quite a lot of time as a students.
18:17
I think it took us like four and a half years before we really brought the product to the
18:23
market. Like before, it was really something that was used by yeah.
18:26
Around the world. Yeah.
18:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Were you ever sort of seeing what is going on here?
18:32
Am I on the right track, or were you always upbeat?
18:36
Freek van Welsenis: Oh, no. Every day I, I think.
18:41
I think it's healthy to have have some have some crisis once in a while.
18:47
Oh yeah. In terms of like, right, like you have I think you have to
18:50
constantly question, like, are we doing the right things? And, and
18:53
there's periods when you have to say a lot because I mean,
18:56
in the end so many things go wrong.
18:58
And it happens less now than, than before, but still just things will go
19:03
wrong. And, and you also should constantly question,
19:06
like, are we doing the right things and are we moving forward?
19:08
Right. I think now that I'm a little bit older and I've done this for a little bit
19:12
longer, I, I feel like I every time this happens,
19:15
I now recognize, hey, this is actually good that we're having this,
19:17
but at the start it would cause quite a bit of panic every time you have like,
19:22
big things going wrong.
19:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was it difficult to recruit others to work with you,
19:27
and do you have a big group with you?
19:31
Freek van Welsenis: I think that's one of the things that, like,
19:33
it's quite easy for us to recruit good people.
19:37
Because I, I think that most people, especially the people that work with us.
19:42
They just want to work on things that really make a difference.
19:47
And for us, I think, yeah, a lot of people see right away that that
19:51
you're working on something that makes something that makes an impact. So we always
19:56
get a lot of applications from people who want to work with us.
20:00
And right now we're with almost eight people in the in the team.
20:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
20:05
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So that's I think I think for us, that's already a big team.
20:08
Like we grew a lot over the last few years.
20:12
Yeah.
20:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's talk about the core user problem.
20:16
As a blind smartphone user, I know such touch screens can be powerful,
20:26
but also slow, frustrating and very public.
20:31
Okay, what specific barriers did hable you know,
20:38
One set out to remove voice over and talkback users.
20:48
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, I think the like the core problem, like when we started to to develop the
20:54
product, this was really for the grandfather of my co-founder,
20:57
and he mostly had a problem with typing.
21:00
And that's like the one thing we started with. And for us,
21:04
we early on decided to work with Braille for typing because he was a Braille user.
21:09
And that made the most sense in our case.
21:12
But as we started testing more and more with people around us so in the Netherlands,
21:17
like with, with blind users, we realized that the swiping and tapping for
21:22
a lot of people is very frustrating to do.
21:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yes, it is.
21:27
Freek van Welsenis: The more like difficult the gestures gets.
21:29
Like once you go to the rotor commands or other,
21:32
it just can get very frustrating.
21:35
And we, we felt like a lot of people would prefer to use buttons,
21:40
just physical buttons over using gestures on the screen.
21:43
So we started to solve the problem for typing,
21:46
but later on we said okay, but actually the problem about gestures and
21:50
swiping on the screen is actually as like equally big.
21:53
So that also meant that our proposition changed completely when we started.
21:58
It was actually a phone case that we designed.
22:01
Oh, okay. The able one was going to be part of the phone with,
22:04
like, buttons on the back into a phone case.
22:07
But with that design in mind, you would still have to swipe on your phone.
22:12
And then we realized, hey, but if we make it a separate device and
22:16
also use it to control VoiceOver and talkback,
22:19
so the swiping, then there's even an added benefit and that is that your phone can stay
22:23
safe. Like for people who go outside or who walk in public,
22:28
your phone can actually stay in your pocket and you just use your able to control it.
22:32
So we realized that there was a way better design for the for the problems people were
22:37
having with using the smartphone.
22:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea.
22:41
I mean, like, you know, you don't want to be taking out your phone
22:44
and you never know who's looking at your screen.
22:47
Freek van Welsenis: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
22:49
And and we've unfortunately heard, like, really awful stories of people who were
22:53
outside and someone just snatched their iPhone or just.
22:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
22:56
Freek van Welsenis: And then. Yeah. You're in.
22:58
Yeah. I don't I just feel so sorry for for the people that happened to.
23:02
And then I think with cable, we've never heard someone took out a cable
23:05
because I don't think people know what it is.
23:07
No, they wouldn't have a clue.
23:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. They probably start staring at it and saying,
23:11
what the hell is this?
23:13
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.
23:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want this. Yeah.
23:17
That's true. Yeah. That's true.
23:19
Yeah. Cable has grown to serve thousands of users across many countries.
23:27
Okay. What impact measures or sorry, what impact measures matter most to you daily
23:37
use, independence outcomes, user confidence and what user stories have
23:45
stayed with you the most?
23:49
Freek van Welsenis: The thing we measure. So the thing that we really set the start is most important,
23:54
is that we compared what people were able to do without the table one versus with.
24:00
That was our measure, because every person is different.
24:04
And also the reason for using a table can be completely different.
24:09
But the goal is that you should be able to do more or be do it faster,
24:13
or do it without less frustration than without the table one.
24:17
That was the main goal.
24:19
So we tried to measure the difference that it made essentially.
24:23
And from that, like the, the you just hear a lot of amazing stories
24:29
that that for me is still, I think, I mean, I like data,
24:33
I like to look at numbers. I have a technical background, but the stories are way more fun
24:37
in our case. And we have some like amazing story.
24:41
There's this there's a kit from the from the UK.
24:47
His name is his name is Brian.
24:49
He's 14, and he in high school, he wasn't able to participate in the
24:54
programming class just because it wasn't accessible and he couldn't work with it
25:00
through the material he had in school. So for him,
25:02
we designed the package on the table so he could work with programming. And now he's
25:07
he's almost going to university, and he's, like,
25:09
the best in class with programming.
25:11
And I think that's just an amazing story of that.
25:14
We've been able to contribute to that.
25:16
I think that's really cool.
25:19
I have a few stories of people who are not able to use the phone at all before,
25:23
and now they're able to use their socials, their they message people,
25:27
they even use like their banking app on their phone. And it said it just makes a massive
25:31
difference in being connected to others.
25:34
Yeah, I think those things for me are just put a big smile on my face.
25:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically it's it's another way to navigate the phone and navigate it more
25:44
safely. More easily.
25:47
Freek van Welsenis: Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
25:49
Okay.
25:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Cable easy is designed for people who want buttons,
25:56
not swipes. That sounds like me.
26:00
Especially for seniors or those new to accessible,
26:05
accessible tech. What real life needs pushed you to create able easy.
26:14
And what did you learn by working with rehabilitation and occupational therapy
26:23
therapy professionals?
26:26
Freek van Welsenis: So easy. I I'm really proud of because it is not my idea at all.
26:34
So easy. Just came from a a question.
26:39
We work a lot with occupational therapists and professionals around the world.
26:45
And we got a question from a few different occupational players around the world who
26:51
said, hey, we really like this one.
26:53
It's amazing. But for many of our clients that we work with,
26:57
they don't know any Braille.
26:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So.
27:00
Freek van Welsenis: They cannot work with it, but they really would love to use the buttons
27:04
to control the phone because because swiping is just it's just not working for them.
27:09
It's too frustrating. It's too annoying to learn.
27:12
It takes so much time.
27:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, it sounds like me a lot.
27:17
Freek van Welsenis: And I mean, I got it. So I, we talked to all of the different people and
27:22
then actually I went on a training myself.
27:24
So I said, hey, I really want to get like like understand this.
27:28
So for two weeks I, I don't know if this is right,
27:30
but I shadowed an occupational therapist, so I just sat in all the training sessions
27:35
with her as she was training people to work with voiceover and talkback.
27:41
And I just noticed that the frustration.
27:43
And then for some people, they would go in and one week,
27:46
like after an hour, they would finally be able to,
27:48
like, swipe through the phone. But then next week they came back and they said, you know,
27:52
I've been trying every day, but like the double tap, I do it too slow and
27:55
then I do it too fast. And then my phone is at an angle and and I yeah,
27:59
we just saw the frustration.
28:02
So together with the actually the professionals,
28:05
we built a version of cable that didn't need any braille.
28:08
They just had one button for one function that allows you to swipe through the phone to
28:13
hang up the phone call, pick up a phone call to change the volume,
28:17
like all the basic functions are in there.
28:20
If you want to type, you use dictation, but it's all just through buttons.
28:25
And yeah, we built it completely with with the community around us,
28:29
and now it's being used by a lot of people.
28:33
So that's I think it's a super cool, super cool thing we did based just on
28:38
community feedback as something we ourselves would not have thought of.
28:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it is easy, a lot different from table one because I think I have the table one.
28:49
Freek van Welsenis: So the table is the same hardware as the table one,
28:52
and the only difference is the the software.
28:55
So you just change. We just change the software on there so that instead of using
28:59
multiple buttons at a time like with Braille, you would use one button at a time.
29:05
And for the table, ECV also adds tactile stickers in there.
29:09
So you can add tactile stickers on the buttons to make it easier to remember what
29:12
they do. For example, there's a there's an arrow for the tickets
29:15
that swipe forward and swipe backwards.
29:17
There's a little microphone for the for the dictation.
29:21
There's a little phone horn for picking up a phone call.
29:24
A phone call. So that's the only difference.
29:27
And we sell them as different products because they're used by different groups
29:31
mostly, but you can always switch.
29:33
So if you're a table one user and you want to try table easy,
29:37
or if you're able easier and you want to try the table one that you can just do that.
29:41
It's completely free. And we do that through the app,
29:43
through a software update.
29:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I need to be talking to you about table easy because I bought table table one.
29:52
I think I bought it about maybe two years ago.
29:56
And I've, you know, I was really impressed with it,
29:59
but I haven't had time to really you know, experience the potential of table one.
30:05
But from what you're telling me about table. Easy.
30:08
Yeah, I think I need to have a chat with you offline.
30:11
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, we can do that. Of course.
30:12
I'm happy to walk you through it. Yeah.
30:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you have expanded beyond keyboards to daily living tools like speech
30:24
label, voice labeling and stack tiles.
30:32
Tac tactile markings. Wow.
30:36
What made you decide to broaden the product ecosystem?
30:42
And how do these tools complement table one and table easy in every day life?
30:55
Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So the well, let me let me start with the,
30:59
the the question like why we why we expanded to these products.
31:02
So yes. First like table one and table easy was our table one was our starting point.
31:09
And later on table easy and assured like as we're distributing these products,
31:15
as we're developing them and continuing development,
31:18
we noticed that we have slowly built up quite a large group of people around us,
31:24
from our customers to the professionals to our partners,
31:27
like our distribution partners, and like all sorts of organizations around
31:32
the world. And as you do this, you get so much feedback,
31:36
like, I feel like we've learned so much from everyone about frustrations or about things
31:41
that go really well, or where in the, in the world new things are needed.
31:45
And from that, the feeling we got most is that there's quite a big need for assistive
31:51
technology that's a little bit simpler, and it's a little bit more affordable.
31:55
I think there's many amazing companies working on the more,
31:58
let's say, high end assistive technology.
32:01
But there's not that many companies working on more affordable assistive technology.
32:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
32:07
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So so that's the gap we want to fill.
32:11
That that's where I want to go and focus with.
32:16
And these two products are the first two in that in that line,
32:19
we, we invested a lot in building these products and getting into the market speech
32:25
labels. The first one this is a it's a labeling system.
32:28
So there are a combination of stickers and buttons that you can attach to anything
32:33
around you. You scan this with our speech label app and then you can add a label to it.
32:38
So you can add either a voice label with your voice,
32:41
or you can add a text to it.
32:42
And next time you scan that same label, the voice pops out or the text pops out.
32:46
And you can, for example, use this to label your clothing.
32:49
It can be there to label things like your containers with leftover food from the day,
32:53
to label what it is or when you made it.
32:57
And this labeling system, then we build it in such a way that it's,
33:02
we think, really affordable.
33:03
So the app is completely free.
33:06
You just buy labels if you need them.
33:09
And labels, like, for example, the, the, the stickers we have,
33:13
you have 100 labels for just I think it's like $21.
33:18
And you can reuse them as many times as you like.
33:22
So that's one of the first, the first things we built and now we just
33:27
launched Stack Tiles. We only launched that a few weeks ago.
33:30
These are really high quality tactile stickers.
33:34
It's yeah, it's it's something you have to, like kind of feel, but it's a,
33:38
a 3D printed tactile sticker.
33:40
It's I think the highest quality tactile sticker that exists.
33:43
We have it in different icon shapes.
33:44
We have ones with Braille and without braille. And all of this,
33:48
we're gonna launch this March in the, in the in Canada and the United States.
33:54
And I'm just really excited for it because I really feel like it's our next phase of able.
33:58
And bringing this to the world.
34:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess you'll be competing with Penfriend, won't you?
34:04
Freek van Welsenis: Yes, yes, we certainly will be competing with them.
34:07
Yes.
34:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Look out!
34:10
Hey!
34:11
Freek van Welsenis: Yeah.
34:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who may not be fluent in Braille,
34:18
what is the realistic learning curve a curve with table one.
34:25
And how do you support users who are learning Braille?
34:31
Switching braille codes or choosing between contracted and uncontracted Braille.
34:41
Freek van Welsenis: So the when it comes to Braille on the table one of course,
34:47
the easiest thing, if you already know Braille, it's very intuitive.
34:51
So you can get started relatively quickly once you know what each button is.
34:55
The brailling goes quite fast if you're completely new to Braille. There's, of
34:58
course, a learning curve. It's good to understand that using the able one is just
35:03
typing. So just inputs for Braille.
35:05
So it is not that you are learning reading in Braille when you're working with table one.
35:10
I think that's a good thing to mention.
35:12
Which on one side has the downside that you're not necessarily right away learning to
35:17
read Braille. At the other hand, it is a lot faster than learning to read
35:21
Braille. Because reading takes a lot more practice than typing.
35:27
So if you're completely new to using to using braille it depends per person,
35:33
but it goes faster than it would to read Braille.
35:36
And it it's really hard to give a one like one answer to this because it completely
35:41
differs per person how much time you put into this.
35:44
But I've seen someone who's really fast, and it would really take only a few days.
35:49
And there's also people who take take longer,
35:52
and it can be a few few weeks to months.
35:55
But that really depends per person.
35:58
There is a lot of information we have out there for people who have never used before.
36:02
We have YouTube series I think it's seven episodes.
36:07
That's of course, completely audio driven.
36:09
On how to use it if you're not a real user.
36:12
We have online classes for this and we always offer a support of at least 30 minutes of a
36:18
call with one of our trainers.
36:21
So we have a lot of materials around it.
36:22
If you're if you're if you're new to them.
36:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is the braille, is the Hubble easy?
36:31
Is it like, would you call it an improvement over the Hubble one or table one?
36:35
Sorry.
36:36
Freek van Welsenis: No, I would say it's just a different like a different reason for using it.
36:40
So the like table is, is just a it's a more simple product.
36:44
So it's more for people who really struggle with the gestures and who don't necessarily
36:49
want to type fast in Braille.
36:51
So just if you're more new to using screen readers or if you're more frustrated with how
36:56
to use them, table is like the simplest way to do this.
37:00
And the table one specifically for for people who also want to type in braille and move
37:05
quickly through their phone, I would say
37:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Now my clock is starting to wind down,
37:13
but I have this question for you.
37:15
After compatibility is a moving target because iOS and Android change so
37:25
often. Okay. How do you keep cable devices working smoothly through operating system
37:34
updates? And what does your accessibility testing process look like before and after
37:44
updates ship?
37:47
Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So this is one of the, I would say, unique selling points of the one
37:51
compared to other products to other braille keyboards.
37:55
And we the software on this one is completely built from scratch by us,
38:01
and it's recognized by the phone as a Bluetooth keyboard and not as a Braille
38:07
keyboard. And that's a seems like a tiny difference.
38:10
It's a very big difference.
38:12
But the first big difference is that it's way more expensive to write all the software.
38:18
But the reason we did that is because it will always stay compatible as long as a Bluetooth
38:24
keyboard stays compatible. And you can imagine that Bluetooth keyboards have to stay
38:28
compatible. Yes, with every software update, yes they do.
38:32
So that is a big a big reason for us why?
38:36
It's it's like really easy for us to keep it compatible.
38:41
Because if it wouldn't be compatible, then nothing is compatible. Let's say. And we
38:45
have a, we have a special enable app that is there to update the software whenever we need
38:50
to add updates. So the updating of the one is also relatively easy.
38:55
If it's connected to your phone, you can update it.
38:58
So this just makes it very smooth to do the whole building process.
39:03
And when it comes to testing we, we have a few steps in our testing process.
39:08
So there is internal testing that we do with the team.
39:12
In our team are also a few people who are blind themselves who are able one users.
39:17
So they do do the tests in the team.
39:20
Then when we are happy and we push the updates,
39:22
of course we test again.
39:23
And then we also have a select group of customers of us who are very active who do
39:29
the first testing of the, of the beta software and only after they like
39:33
it, we then push the push the update out.
39:35
So there's quite a few steps in making sure everything works as smoothly as it should.
39:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So I have one final question for you because the clock is saying,
39:49
you know, simplicity seems central to your philosophy.
39:57
You've spoken about people using a small percentage of features most of the time.
40:05
How did that shape the core commands you choose to prioritize first and what
40:15
features Did you intentionally not build?
40:20
Now, don't give away your trade secrets.
40:22
But just.
40:22
Freek van Welsenis: Tell me. Yeah, I really like this question.
40:27
Because I think simplicity is something most people strive for.
40:32
But it's so I learned so hard to achieve.
40:35
But what I always what I try to tell my team when we're working on new product is that
40:40
when we build something we should like, imagine making a building and everyone that
40:46
comes there needs to get upstairs, but there's not one way to get upstairs.
40:50
We want to develop multiple ways to get upstairs so it's accessible to more people.
40:54
So there should be a way with stairs.
40:56
There should be a ramp. There should be an elevator.
40:59
Maybe there should be a whole different structure to get you upstairs.
41:04
And that's we then try to put into a product and a good example maybe is something I don't
41:10
think many people know this, but on the table one,
41:12
many of the commands work, even if you do it wrong.
41:16
So for example, the the double tap.
41:20
So the the the double tap for example is a is a command you use all the time.
41:25
So it's a double tap this on the table.
41:26
One is press button seven and eight together.
41:28
So the spacebar and the backspace.
41:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
41:31
Freek van Welsenis: However if you hold those buttons.
41:33
So if you don't press them shortly which is the command,
41:36
but if you hold them it also still does this.
41:39
And if you hold one of them first and only later the other.
41:42
So if you're a little bit, let's say not instantly,
41:45
it doesn't matter. We have like a timer so that it still works.
41:49
So it kind of predicts when you want to do what.
41:51
And then if you make a small error, we correct it for you so that it still works.
41:56
And that means that for us, it's quite hard to like.
41:59
It makes it very complex to develop. But for a user,
42:01
everything seems way more simple.
42:03
Now there is a example I can give.
42:05
There's a lot of examples I cannot give. But this is what we try to build into every every
42:10
single one of our products.
42:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Freek, it has been a pleasure having you and I've learned so much about your product.
42:19
Real pleasure to hear someone talking about, you know,
42:24
understanding what is necessary, going out there and saying,
42:28
you know, I need to learn, not, you know, the regular person who says,
42:34
I know what to do. No, you don't, and I don't.
42:38
So I want to thank you for for coming on to my podcast today.
42:43
Freek van Welsenis: Yes, of course, that's it.
42:44
And thank you so much for having me, Donna. I really enjoyed it today.
42:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's been my pleasure.
42:48
You take care and we'll talk to you soon.
42:51
Freek van Welsenis: Thank you.
42:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Yeah.
42:54
Bye bye.
42:54
Freek van Welsenis: Bye.
42:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
42:58
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@Gmail.com.
43:04
Until next time.