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Did You Know About FSU's New Two-Year Degree? · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Good morning, and welcome to the third hour show fifty
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: five sixty eight of the Morning Show. And I'm Preston.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: He's Jose playing hurt today, fighting fighting the crowd off,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: but he's passed the worst of it. He broke the
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: news to me, professor, that he is not contagious. So
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that's good stuff. Joining us, doctor Ryan Owens, Professor, Florida
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: State University, the Florida Institute on Governance and Civics. How
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: are you.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I'm doing great? Yeah, fired up. Man.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Tell everybody that does not know you came here previously
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: talking about the Institute for Governance in Civics. What is it?
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, great question, Thank you for that. So the institute
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: is something new at Florida State University. Our statutory charge
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: is to try to create effective citizens and responsible leaders.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: So we do that through a number of different ways
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: of teaching, research, and programming. Okay, so we'll talk about
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: teaching in a little bit. Yeah, let's start with programming.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: We're bringing in all kinds of national speakers to address
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: interesting issues across the country right now. So just recently,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: we had Assistant Attorney General Harmeat Dillon come to talk
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: to a large crowd here about what the Department of
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Justice is doing, how the civil rights division there works.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: We've had a couple of national economic historians come here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: We had Rich Lowry, who's the editor in chief of
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: the National Review, come in and talk about what's happening
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: in the country today. So this is part of a
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: broader effort to make sure that students are exposed to
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: a diversity of viewpoints on campus. Right, So we're not
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: designated to make sure that students believe a particular thing,
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: but that they're exposed to all kinds of things. After all,
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: this is about student success.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: We want to make sure that our students once they
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: leave FSU or well grounded individuals who've got knowledge about
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: the American Foundation, free speech principles and the like, it's
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: going to help them get jobs. It's going to help
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: them be successful in their careers. Define effective well, you know,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: it depends, of course, on the job. But when we
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: were talking about citizenship, we want to create effective citizens. Yeah,
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: we want citizens who understand that being a good citizen
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: in America is about, first of all, knowing where you
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: come from, right, knowing the underlying values of Western civilization. Right.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean to the exclusion of anything else.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: But you live in Western country, you've got to understand
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: what the underlying roots of the foundations there are. So
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: you have to understand that. But the next thing you've
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: got to be able to do is operate in that
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: space with people who disagree. You know, one of the
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: biggest complaints I hear from employers these days is that
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: they have younger employees coming in who don't know how
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: to disagree agreeably with other co workers, and that really
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: poisons the workplace. So we need to do a better
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: job of making sure that students understand, you know, intellectual humility,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: but also that there are people who have driving views
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: and that's fine, right, So that's effectiveness in terms of
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: being a citizen. Then you got to know the rules
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: of the game, right, I mean, I drove here this
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: morning in my pickup Right. If I didn't know how
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: to drive, I'm not going to be a successful owner
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: of that pickup truck. I need to know the rules
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: of the games. You got to know the rules of
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: what it means to be a citizen in America today.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: So we're teaching people those things as well as skills
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  Speaker 3: in things like the social sciences. You've got to understand
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: how to read graphs, how to work with numbers, got
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: to be proficient in data. So we're doing that as well.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: We're hiring faculty, we're putting on research programming. We created
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: a First Amendment clinic at the law school to defend
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: pro bono religious liberty claimants and also free speech claims.
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  Speaker 2: So we're really active. We're doing a lot of stuff
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  Speaker 2: on campus.
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  Speaker 1: And the big news now is it is a degree.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, Doug gone, and I'm excited about this.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, how does that? How does something become a degree course?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of internal you know, inside baseball
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: you got to do to get things filed and whatever.
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  Speaker 3: But basically what it divals do is this, you get
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  Speaker 3: an idea about.
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  Speaker 2: How you want to teach students something.
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  Speaker 3: Right, we want to impart some substantive knowledge to them
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  Speaker 3: about you know, being a citizen, but also having these
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  Speaker 3: skills social science wise. Then you get to get other
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: with folks Sall right, here's the idea, Right, we want
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  Speaker 3: to offer this curriculum, this set of courses.
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  Speaker 2: What are those courses involve? Right?
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  Speaker 3: Why these particular courses. You've got to shepherd it through
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: the process inside the university. You've got to get approval colleges, deans, provosts,
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  Speaker 3: and board of trustees and such.
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  Speaker 2: So for me, I sat here and looked at this.
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  Speaker 3: I said, We've got a lot of really good programs
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  Speaker 3: on campus right now, political science, philosophy, religion, all of
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  Speaker 3: these things, but in many instances, not always, but in
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: many instances they're not really engaged.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: With one another on some of these broader questions.
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  Speaker 3: So what we want to do is make sure that
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: we created something where you get students who have the skills,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: the empirical skills, quantitative skills to bring sophisticated tools to
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: answer normatively important questions. What is a republic, what does
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: it mean to be free? What is economic liberty? And
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: why is it important? So we're hoping to train students
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  Speaker 3: who have the skills to answer important questions. That's going
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  Speaker 3: to help them go in their careers to get jobs
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  Speaker 3: in law, in policy, in government, in business. Right, we
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: want people to understand these broader notions and have the
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  Speaker 3: skills to address them.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Back with doctor Ryan Owens, so asking the dumb question first,
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  Speaker 1: is this a two years is a four year program?
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  Speaker 1: What is this?
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  Speaker 3: This is a bachelor's degree? Okay, be a bachelor's in
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  Speaker 3: Science of Civics and Liberty studies.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Who do you think would be attracted to this? I
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: heard you talk about the output, but on the input side,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: who is this for? Who should be intrigued by this offering?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: You know, honestly, we want everybody to be intrigued by it. Yeah,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: to be quite honest with you, but anybody who's got
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: interests in the why questions? You know, you look around
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: and you see politics today, you ask yourself, why is
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: this the way it is right? Or how can we
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: prove things right? We want people who are intellectually curious, right,
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: why do things exist the way they do?
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  Speaker 2: What can we learn about that?
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  Speaker 3: And then how can we if it needs to be changed,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: how can we work to change that?
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  Speaker 2: And So what we've got with the degree.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Program, students will come in. They're going to take a
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  Speaker 3: series of required core courses and things like the First
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  Speaker 3: Amendment and civil discourse in the American Political Order, and
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: introduction to public policy. So they're going to gain a
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: bunch of knowledge of substance, foundational history, philosophy, religion, that
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  Speaker 3: kind of stuff mixed up. But they're also going to
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: take a course set of courses in as I said,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: public policy, statistics and the like, so that they can
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: merge these two strands of thought together. And then they're
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: going to concentrate one of four areas constitutional liberty, economic liberty,
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  Speaker 3: conscience liberty, and education liberty. So people who are thinking
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  Speaker 3: about going into say teaching or public policy as it
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: relates to education, they're going to want to concentrate in
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  Speaker 3: that education liberty. Folks who are interested in things like
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: perhaps religion or maybe a First Amendment law, Conscience liberty
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  Speaker 3: might be something that they're interested in. For folks who
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  Speaker 3: are thinking about, you know, getting engaged in business or
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: the economy or something that economic liberty brands. And I'll
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: tell you one of the things we're interested in there
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: is getting students and others, frankly to think not just
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: about you know, spending government checks, but checking government spending.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: We want them to think about both sides of this
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  Speaker 3: of this coin. And then constitutional liberty. Right, we want
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  Speaker 3: people who are interested in the constitution, right, the folks
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  Speaker 3: that were thinking about going to law, Folks who were
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  Speaker 3: thinking about maybe going into you know, criminology or something
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  Speaker 3: like that. Right, So there's something that can appeal to
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  Speaker 3: everybody because Civics affects every single person in this country.
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  Speaker 1: In the creation of this degree and it now being
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  Speaker 1: a program that you can get this degree in. How
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  Speaker 1: many of those courses that you just mentioned, and I
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  Speaker 1: know that there's probably a myriad of others existed already
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  Speaker 1: on the Florida State campus.
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  Speaker 3: There are some that already existed, and in fact, we're
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  Speaker 3: working with existing departments to offer some of those courses
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: political science, history, econ, religion, philosophy.
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  Speaker 1: So you had to almost do an inventory of what
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  Speaker 1: was out there and then say, okay, what do we
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  Speaker 1: need to fill in the gaps? That's how it works.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's right.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I started off with a view of
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  Speaker 3: this is what I want this to look like, and
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  Speaker 3: what do we already have on the books that sort
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  Speaker 3: of helping to accomplish those goals. Where can we fill
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  Speaker 3: in those gaps? So we're offering a whole series of
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  Speaker 3: new courses, and then this summer we're going to start
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  Speaker 3: creating a bunch of additional courses as well to get
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  Speaker 3: those on the books as we move forward.
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  Speaker 1: How many schools across the country are doing this?
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  Speaker 2: Not many?
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  Speaker 1: I was going to say, I would think that there
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  Speaker 1: aren't a lot of places that you can look around
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  Speaker 1: and say, we're going to model this after blank.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: Now, there are a handful of places across the country
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  Speaker 3: right now that have these Civics institutes. They're all great,
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: they're doing fantastic work. But what distinguishes us from them
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  Speaker 3: is they tend to be focused just on the humanities,
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  Speaker 3: like just on history or philosophy or religion or classics.
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  Speaker 3: We're bringing the social sciences into it as well, so
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  Speaker 3: you know, we're training people to come in with some
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  Speaker 3: more quantitative skills.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: We're gonna get him back here a little more frequently.
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  Speaker 1: Because I'm a nerd on this stuff. I've joked and
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  Speaker 1: I look, my wife's got three degrees. All right, I'm
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: married smart, But I myself. You can measure the time
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  Speaker 1: I've spent on a college campus on a wristwatch. I
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  Speaker 1: mean that, I'm not joking about that. I have great
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: respect and admiration for the educational process, but I also
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: have great respect and admiration for how we used to
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: do it compared to how we do it now. And
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: we were just talking about that in the break, professor,
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  Speaker 1: So let's do this. Let's take people inside one of
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: your classes. How does it go? What are you doing?
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  Speaker 2: Well? Hopefully it goes really well. Right, yeah, i'd say so.
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  Speaker 3: I'm teaching a class right now on the Supreme.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Court's current term.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: What we do is we take six or seven cases
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: that are currently before the United States Supreme Court, and
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: by current I mean yet last night I talked from
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: five point thirty to eight o'clock PM and we talked
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: about a case that the Supreme Court heard the day before.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: So this is contemporary, current stuff and it's a seminar.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: So what we do is one week the students will
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: come in. They will have been assigned to read the
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: parties briefs in the case and all the relevant precedents
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: that are cited in there. So it's a fair amount
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: of reading to do for an undergraduate course.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: We will discuss the case, the briefs.
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  Speaker 3: You know, what are the party's arguments, the cases that
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: they cite, and you know which ones help them, which
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: ones don't.
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  Speaker 2: And that's an extensive discussion.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: And I have the students take positions with which they disagree,
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  Speaker 3: so I make sure that in some cases, if there's
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: a conservative perspective, that I have some students argue that,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: and then the next week if that same cohort, if
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: there's a liberal perspective, I make them take that, so
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: that they're learning to see through different lenses. So one
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: week we'll read all the briefs all the cases. In
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: the next week we listen to the world arguments at
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: the states at the US Supreme Court, and then the
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: final class of the semester, we actually go to the
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: state Supreme Court and they sit and do mock oral
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: arguments at.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: The So it's a not in front of the justices.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But correct So we have students who will sit in
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: the justice's seats as justices. I've been doing this for
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: maybe fifteen years now, and occasionally the justices will pop in.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: They'll still watch for a little bit and sort of thing.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: So it's a really neat experience for the students. They
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: take away from it because you know, they get sort
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: of role play. But what is fascinating about this is
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: students are learning what's going on contemporaneously. They're engaged in
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: legal discussions where they're forced to take opposing sides in
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: the same cases, so they get, you know, what the
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: other side is arguing and they've got to write a lot.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: They read and they.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Write a lot, and they have to express themselves verbally.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: So they're getting all kinds of different skills training. And
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you one student of mine came up to me,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: this is a few years ago now, and he said,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: you know why, Professor Owens, when we started this case,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I was one hundred percent opposed to the position that
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: you know, such and such had on this. I still
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: don't think that that person is morally right, but I
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: understand legally why that person has a claim to make
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: what she did. And hallelujah, right right, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I don't care. That's fine. You believe what you want
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: to believe.
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  Speaker 3: But the whole purpose of this is to get you
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: to understand what the law is, why the law is
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: the way it is, and to make reasoned arguments.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: That way you talked about writing, and that stands out
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: to me. How much remedial work do you find yourself
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: kind of sort of having to do.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Kind of sort of a lot?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: And this is one of the things that I certainly
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: tell my students when they come in. I say, you know,
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: we're going to do two things here. Number one, I'm
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: not going to allow laptops in the class unless you've
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: got a medically designated reason to do it, because studies
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: show time after time after time that you learn better,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: more effectively when you actually handwrite things.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Who has said that before? I can't even imagine where
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I've heard that.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Go ahead, and the second thing I say is be
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: prepared to write and to have me rip up your writing,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: because that's just how you learn. Yeah, and you know
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: it's gonna feel terrible at first. You're gonna think I'm
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: an ogre, and you know, maybe I am, but I
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: know that in the long term, this is about student success,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: and if you come out of this program knowing how
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: to write, by God, you're going to have an advantage
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: over all of these other students that are coming out
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: these days that can't write as effectively as our students do.
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  Speaker 1: Additionally, I would then add to that that the ability
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: to take critique and translate that into Okay, I'm going
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: to better myself through this critique. That's a coping mechanism.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: That and a critical thinking set of skills that kids
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: just aren't getting, whether it's at home or in elementary
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and high school anymore. They're just not getting it.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. We need to do a
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: much better job teaching students in the K twelve level
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: how to write, There's no doubt about that. But I'll
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: tell you another class that we are going to offer
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: next year is something called Debating Contentious Civics Issues. And
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: so what we're going to do is we're bringing speakers
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: in every week basically usually Tuesdays at noon, they come
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: in and they'll give a talk, either in the student
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: union or something else. Students will be required to come
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: in and hear those speakers, and then on Thursdays in
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: the class period, they're going to debate what they heard, right,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: and you know which side do you think had the
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: better argument on why? Let's discuss these things. So it's
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: a way to get students to attend to hear things
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: that they might otherwise not hear, but then afterwards think
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: about it, debate, learn how to disagree agreeably, learn how
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: to make points that are not just ad hominem attacks
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: that are a little bit more deep than that, so
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: that eventually when they come out of university right and
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: they go into the public, they can have the same
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: discussions with other people and recognize just because you disagree
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: with me, doesn't mean you're an idiot, right, And just
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: because I believe this doesn't mean I'm right.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Does the existence of this new degree in Civics and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Liberty studies? Is this an expression of the new interest
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: or is this taking advantage of the interest that is there?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a little bit of both.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I think anybody who has eyes open and can take
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: in today's contemporary environment knows that we got serious problems.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: We have leader death, leadership deficits, we have just deficits
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: and knowledge about civics, and we've got extreme polarization. How
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: do we address those things? I think this Civics degree
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: program is a way to try to address all of
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: those things. So we're excited about this. We know we're
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: gonna have hundreds, if not thousands of students come circulate
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: through this program.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: As I've indicated before, I really think that the sun
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: is rising over Florida State University with this and other
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: things it's doing. Folks who are interested in this, of course,
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: you know, they can go to our website IGC dot
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: f SU dot edu to find out more. We're on socials.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: We're really firing on multiple cylinders here.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: And we're excited.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see the first graduates of this degree.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: They're gonna be awesome.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: They're gonna be We're gonna be so proud of these people,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: and you're gonna want to hire them. Anybody out there
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: who's running a business, you know, who's got an internship program,
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: you're gonna want these students because these are gonna be
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: fantastic students.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: The first the first graduates of this program walk how
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: far from now?
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a two year deal, right, so we'll get
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: them basically when they're junior is and them do two
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: years with us. It's about forty five credits, I believe
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: it is total. So two years from now, we're gonna
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: be pumping them out nice. Yeah, man, you're gonna see them.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: It's gonna be as like the clouds open and the
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: angels sing.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: With all of this.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming in. I appreciate you, and I appreciate
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: what you're doing.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Go pat go yeah man? All right? Joining us a
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: professor doctor Ryan Owens, Florida State University, Florida Institute for
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Governance and Civics