Latest / Conservation Stories / Life Depends on Rivers: Conservation, Water Policy, and Working Together in the Southwest

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Life Depends on Rivers: Conservation, Water Policy, and Working Together in the Southwest · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hello, I'm Dusty Timmons with Conservation Stories, and I recently was afforded the opportunity to go to the Hunt Fish Podcast Summit held outside of Houston and interview a number of venturing people for the conservation stories that you'll be hearing over the next couple of weeks. Included in these are people from all walks of life that are involved in conservation and charitable organizations that I feel will be really interesting. I hope you enjoy the podcast as much as I enjoyed recording the interviews for you. You. Okay? We're here today with Matt Rice. Matt Rice directs the American American Rivers multidisciplinary, multidisciplinary programs for the Southwest region. Matt lives in Denver and is going to be developing programs to help in Texas on river conservation and river improving in conserving our waters. And Matt, why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is that American Rivers does and what you do in particular? Sure.
• 0:57
  Speaker B: Yeah. So American Rivers is the leading national river conservation organization throughout the country. I lead all of our work in the southwestern United States and Texas. I've been working on Colorado river issues for 15 years now. And when I talk about the Colorado river in the Southwest, I'm really talking about Colorado, Arizona, Utah, a little bit of Nevada and a little bit of Southern California. And over the last couple years, I've been working to kind of think about investigating how we can potentially build a program and support local river conservation efforts in Texas. I've been coming down here quite a bit and meeting lots of wonderful people and learning about Texas water and Texas rivers. And it's incredibly complex. And one thing that I have realized, like other places in the country, is that, you know, Texans especially are so, are so connected to their waterways. They're so connected to their rivers. They're so connected, such a big part of, you know, the culture in Texas. And I'm certainly not a Texas river expert right now, but, you know, over time, hopefully we're going to be able to get something going down here and hire a Texan to do work in Texas.
• 2:17
  Speaker A: Well, it's great. I'm. I will tell you right now, from being in the south plains of Texas and the southern panhandle region, not much many people up in my neck of the woods or Texas river experts either. So when you talk about the challenges that water and water conservation, water policy and from state to state, and I know it's different in different states and everything, what do you think is the biggest challenge that Texas is facing from a policy standpoint that would help impact the conservation of our rivers?
• 2:50
  Speaker B: Well, I Think like, you know, and it's not unique to Texas, but, you know, we're in a place where lots of arid regions in the United States, the southwest parts of Texas, you know, there's just less water, there's more people, there's more demand. Right. So kind of, kind of simply put, you know, what we do on the policy side is try to work with agriculture, work with cities, work with conservationists to identify and advance solutions, incentives that help us do more with less water. So, I mean, water is. Our tagline at American Rivers, is that life depends on rivers. And I think that's absolutely true. Whether it's wildlife that is absolutely dependent on flowing rivers with water in them, cities, our economy, we need water to drink. Right. We need water to develop. You know, water oftentimes, whether it's in West Texas or it's in Arizona. Right. It's kind of the limiting factor about how much business we can attract, how many houses we can build, how big an economy we can build. Right. So it's. And it's challenged. None of this is easy. And it's kind of a generational. It's a generational effort. But, you know, ultimately, what we have to do is live with the water that we have, and. And that's what we. In the policy space, that's what we work on.
• 4:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. I noticed, you know, looking at, like, the Colorado, the other Colorado river, the one that's not in the great state of Texas, when you look at that and you've got the lakes and you hear stories about how far down they are and everything. And everything. And, you know, some of that's obviously, is a trip attributable to the drought they've been in. But I know some people in. In those areas that, like, you know, we've had rains. That lake's just not filling up. Yeah. And I know, like, the. The river that feeds Lake Meredith up north, which is the Red River, I believe comes in that way, and they had problems with it. And I don't know how this is going back in my mental archives, you know, a bit with the. With salt cedars that have come in and are just pulling water out of that. Out of that river before it can make it through the lake. You know, Lake Meredith in my lifetime has, you know, gone from being pretty substantial early in my life, and in, you know, 40 years or so, it's gone to where it's really not. It's, you know, it's not kind of a shadow of what it. What it used to be. At least that was the last time I was there, and that's been a couple of years. But the invasive species that they got in, the salt cedars and how much that has taken up in through there, do you see things like invasive species? And it's not just salt cedars. You know, we've got junipers that eat up a lot of it as well, or cedars and eat up quite a bit of it, too. Do you see that as playing a role as well into it, or is it.
• 5:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we're, you know, we're in a lot of areas we're out of balance, right. Where invasive species like salt cedar or tamarisk or Russian olive have invaded the river corridor. They're using more water. It's not the habitat that the native species had depended on. And so, yeah, I mean, it's all part of it, right? And there's some tremendous efforts that organizations kind of all over the west are leading to remove that and to reestablish willow and cottonwood and other native species that. That should be there that use maybe potentially less water. It's part of it. I mean, what people need to kind of understand is that there's this water crisis that the west and the south is facing. There's not a silver bullet solution. It's not just about invasives that contributes. It's not just about policy, and it's, it's not just about kind of projects and restoration. It like, has to. All this stuff kind of has to scale up in an appropriate way in order for that to happen, you know, we need. We need kind of the political will behind it. And, you know, one of the, One of the things that I, you know, that keeps me optimistic about the work that I do is that, you know, we know that water in rivers, right? It doesn't matter who you vote for on voting day. It doesn't matter if you're from a city or a rural community. Water and rivers are really, really, really important. And that's proven out over and over and over again. There's research, but there's. We also see it in real time. Like in Texas, 70% of Texans voted for Proposition 4 in November. And that was a fiscal measure that asked Texans to prioritize their tax dollars, the first billion dollars of their tax dollars for the next 20 years to invest in water infrastructure. And when was the last time we've ever. 70% of anybody have ever agreed on anything, right? So what that shows is like, we have this. Is this issue that is post partisan, right? Or nonpartisan I kind of like to think about it being post partisan because everything feels partisan now, but it's really not. And so how do we kind of, how do we capture that energy and how do we work together to make sure that we can do the things we need to do for rivers, for clean water, so we can have robust economies, so we can have fishing and hunting opportunities, so we can continue to grow food in the United States. All of it depends on rivers, right?
• 8:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, it does. I mean, you know, coming from an agricultural region that has an aquifer, we put that on the Ogallala and it's a semi rechargeable aquifer. And so it'll go up and down, but the biggest way that it goes up is when you quit pumping. It's kind of ironic that in our region where we turn the irrigation pivots off because we're running out of water and, or we get a year that's got rain on it and we don't water as much and the level will go up. You know, it's kind of the, it's kind of the catch 22. When it seems like that lower crop prices used to be everybody tried to grow more. If it was, you know, agriculture is the production, agriculture side of it is a completely backwards of the supply and demand. Because for the farmer, if the price is lower, they've got to produce more.
• 9:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:26
  Speaker A: And that generally meant you got to pump more water, you got to put more fertilizer on, you got to push everything just a little bit harder to try to make more. And we've kind of come to the realization, hey, we don't have that water anymore.
• 9:38
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Speaker A: You know, 20 years ago we were planting peanuts that required, you know, 36 acre inches of irrigation per acre to go to produce a full crop. You know, and we don't have that water anymore. You can't do a 60 acre block of peanuts. You can, you know, there's some people that can do 30, but you know, the price, if the price falls, you can't do it. But you know, our rivers that we, we deal with are, you know, are underground. But the, the above ground rivers that we go to, that, that I get to go see as I go west, then, you know, I go and I enjoy fly fishing in the San Juan river in northern New Mexico, you know, the Gunnison river in Colorado. You know, those are some, some, you know, I haven't done a lot of fly fishing. I like to do it. I like to pretend like I'm a fly fisherman. You Know, but it's kind of one of those deals. I'm not a doctor, but I play one on tv. You know, I'm not a fly fisherman, but I play one of the podcasts every now and then. Yeah, sure. And so, you know, seeing those rivers and watching those rivers, and from an outsider standpoint of looking at that and watching them and you. And not really realizing, you know, I'm there for a week, you know, but that. That sage grass, you know, that's. That's hitting the Bighorn river in Wyoming or the, you know, or the. The prairie chickens that are hitting. Hitting them. Hitting that. Not prairie chickens. I'm thinking. I'm trying to blue grouse. There we go. Or rough grass, you know, that are. That are hanging in those areas, and they're in those watersheds. They're, you know, they don't care what your political affiliation is. They just care about that river. And so I want to change. I want to ask you a couple of questions about. About rivers that you may know about that I don't know about.
• 11:17
  Speaker B: Sure. I'll do my best to answer. I might not know them either, but I'll try my best.
• 11:22
  Speaker A: Okay. So looking at. And this is something that's. I'm conflating two different things because one's a river and then one's a fish.
• 11:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:31
  Speaker A: But how they're taking their. The. The step that the. This with the salmon ladders that they put in on dams.
• 11:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. Not just for salmon, but. Yeah. Like, you know, there's dams all over the country on both coasts where there are different kinds of migratory fish. And those dams have played an important role, and they generate hydropower, they provide flood protection. They. They do a number of things. But society also, over the last, you know, 40, 50 years has, you know, also, you know, realize that, you know, the. The existence of these migratory fish is important. So they. They have been. Yeah, that is. That is a strategy to. To, you know, support those migratory fish to mitigate the impacts of those.
• 12:18
  Speaker A: Of those.
• 12:19
  Speaker B: Of those dams is to build fish ladders. So quite literally, ladders that are covered in water that fish can swim up and. And can do. And in some places, it's been very effective. And. And it's a good example.
• 12:31
  Speaker A: That's because, you know, there are, you know, as, you know, you talk about the economy growing, our need for rivers and, you know, the different uses of a river. I mean, you know, not everything is in Mississippi that you can run a, you know, run a steamboat up, you know, like they did, you know, Some of them are smaller and. But like in our, like the Canyon Lake chain, that's here, you know, where you've got lbj, you got Buchanan and then lbj and then Lake Travis, I think is down there. I'm not geography. I'm a proud Texan, but geography is not my strong suit. And so for anybody listening, if I get the. Get the lake wrong, I'm sorry, and, you know, you have my condolences for trusting me too much to get it right. But anyway, but, you know, using those. I remember in 90. 89. 89, my grandfather and my great uncle both had lake houses on Lake lbj and they were up. They were down below Inks Dam, which it goes. Buchanan is the first one. It's a, you know, Lake Buchanan is a big lake. And then Inks Lake is the next one below that, and then below that you have lbj, and we're right below that. We used to go up and we'd take a little boat and we'd go up to the dam and we'd hop and we'd fish. We'd. They were generating. Because it's a. It is a. Generates electricity. And so in 89, I was here, was there with him, and we had a lot of rain and the water was coming. Was literally coming over all day, had all the floodgates were open, was coming over, and I would just kept. Just remember catching all sorts of fish in those things. But Texas uses a lot of those lakes for flood control. Sure. Yeah. They use hydroelectricity generation, power generation out of them. But flood control is a big thing. And the Hill country is a really good example of where they use it for flood control. Canyon Lakes, I believe, if I'm. And I could be completely wrong, but Canyon Lakes, I believe, was developed as a flood control to keep the flood waters out of Austin.
• 14:33
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 14:33
  Speaker A: And it was never meant to be a static level lake. It was meant to be a flood control lake that would hold that. But, you know, when people build it, when you build a lake in Texas, people build houses around that lake in Texas.
• 14:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:46
  Speaker A: Because it's a dry place. But, you know, there's.
• 14:48
  Speaker B: It's not just Texas. Yeah.
• 14:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's true.
• 14:51
  Speaker B: Living on a lake and building a house on a lake is a nice thing.
• 14:53
  Speaker A: Yeah. But with the geography of Texas, of that area, of this area of the Hill country, you know, it's mostly rock.
• 15:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 15:01
  Speaker A: And so, you know, like the Edwards aquifer refills in directly from those waters, going right directly into cracks in the rock. From what I Understand, again, not as expert, you know, but anyway, and so you got those flood controls in there. There's been a big push by some environmentalists to try to remove dams, a lot of. A lot of dams out in other areas. I don't think that's going to be something that would be looked at by Texans on a broad scale. I mean, there's bound to be something that probably needs to go or that needs to be replaced or something like that. But as you go forward and you're looking at policy, does American Rivers have a stance on a general overall stance on dam construction or dam usage?
• 15:52
  Speaker B: Well, what I'll say is that we're not opposed to dams. We absolutely recognize the societal value that they bring. In fact, many rivers are, and the health of those rivers are dependent on dams. American Rivers also is nationally the leading organization that removes dams. And I'll say a couple important things here is that we only remove dams that have outlived their life cycle. When you build a piece of infrastructure, especially a dam, it has a life cycle. And if it goes past that life, they're expensive to maintain, and sometimes they outlive their purpose and everything else. And so the way we remove dams is that we work with the dam owners that want to remove those dams, but might not have the capacity, the financial capacity to do it. We work with state dam safety agencies. So every state, virtually every state has them. And they're the agencies that ensure that the dams are safe and not. Not putting downstream people and property at risk. And some, lots of dams are not safe, right. That they're at risk of catastrophic failure which can flood houses and people and property downstream. And some of those dams are also not serving their purpose anymore. Right? And so when all those conditions happen, we're an organization that can come in and bring, you know, federal dollars. And we work with the National Hydropower association and other interests that are not. Would you would not necessarily consider, like, river conservation interests, but we work with them to kind of create the federal dollars and to remove those dams when we need to. And in turn, you know, like, we also work with them to lighten regulation so dams can be operated differently and easier without, like, the regulatory burden that they face. So dam removal is a really, really effective way to restore a river. It doesn't make sense everywhere. Dams are really important for lots of different things. But every dam, just like every car, has a lifespan, right? And when that lifespan is done, oftentimes it's way, way more expensive. And it doesn't make economic sense. It doesn't make societal Sense to put $100 million to repair a dam that's not serving its original purpose. So that's when we come in and we help those people remove those dams. And then that also can have really, really significant ecological benefits as well. Whether it's migratory fish on the east coast or the west coast, it's not just salmon, but recreation. So, for example, on the east coast, the Eastern seaboard, from Maine to Georgia, every town had a textile industry, and each textile plant had a dam on the river that flows through that town. So there are thousands, tens of thousands of dams on these rivers that have tremendous fishing value and hunting value and recreational value to kayak and things like that. But they've got all these dams that haven't been operating or doing anything. They're not providing flood control. They're not generating hydropower. They're not really doing anything for the community anymore. And so oftentimes we'll work with those communities to remove those old textile dams that have not been operating in. In 50 or 60 years. And so that's kind of our approach to it. But, I mean, at the same time, we absolutely recognize the value of that infrastructure and what it has done. I mean, if you want to look back the history of the United States, virtually every city was developed on a river, right? And that development was facilitated by the construction of dams, whether it be for hydrogen power, electricity, like turn of the century, or flood control even earlier, all kinds of. But, you know, society has changed. And so I think. I think we, you know, we understand that it's a very, you know, it's a very controversial issue, but it's one that we also see the absolute benefits of. Like when you remove a dam that no longer makes sense, no longer serves its purpose. You see the fishery restored, you open up a river to recreation. You see local rural economies develop around their river, right? And it's really inspiring.
• 20:45
  Speaker A: Well, you know, the value of rivers. I mean, London was established at a river crossing. I mean, you know, London, England was. That's how it became. It began because it was the only place they could cross the Thames at the time. But, you know, I'm not trying. I didn't. I want to make sure that everyone understands. I'm not trying to be controversial asking about this. I'm asking this because, I don't know. I mean, that's not something that, you know, I don't have to worry about that. You know, we've got literally two dams within two hours of where I live, you know, and one of them is at Lake Allen Henry that provides water. And one of them is White River Lake. And, you know, it's. And White River Lake has got a dam on it. And it's. I think it's. It's one of the forks of the Brazos, I think. But don't hold me to that. But it's one of those things that's, you know, that's getting long in the tooth. And when you get a dam that has outlived its usefulness and it's no longer. Let's say it's like. Let's just use the eastern ones that you're talking about, where they had a textile mill, they had a dam for it, and they don't have that anymore. When you go back go into pulling those out, what challenges do you face, not from a community standpoint, but from an ecological standpoint of, like, how do you get that damn out? It can't be. I mean, I'm assuming it's more complicated than just blow it up with a bunch of dynamite.
• 22:03
  Speaker B: Well, well, actually, in some cases, it's not that much more complicated.
• 22:07
  Speaker A: Can you invite me to one of those?
• 22:08
  Speaker B: I want to see that it's actually cool. I invite all your listeners to, like, check out dam removal on YouTube because it is. It's wild. And, you know, in some cases, it's incredibly complicated. And in others, when it's like a small textile dam that's kind of like fall. Falling apart, it's not holding any water back. You know, like, its community value is largely historical. Right. Like, that dam has been there for 120 years. And so. And rightfully so, community. Communities are attached to that. It's. It represents their history. But, like, for those, it's, you know, you get a couple bulldozers. You know, there's a. There's a temporary impact in the river. You get a couple bulldozers in the river and you pull. Pull it down. Other places, a lot of dams that people don't realize aren't made out of concrete. They're made out of, like, mud and clay and. And have been around for 100 years. And, like, the dam owner wants them out because it's a liability and everything else. And oftentimes that is like plugging that thing with concrete. Blow it up, and then it, like, river cuts a little hole in it and it gets bigger and bigger, and
• 23:12
  Speaker A: then it's just like. Like we're moving a beaver. Damn.
• 23:19
  Speaker B: On a bigger scale. Yeah. So it's a pretty cool thing to see. Right? And it's I've worked on some of these projects in the East. I started my career, I've been working with American, working for American rivers for almost 19 years. And I'm from Colorado, but had got my shot at American Rivers in South Carolina. So I lived in South Carolina for four years and I worked regionally actually not on dam removal, but on the reoperation of dams. So I'd work with the power company and I'd work with stakeholders and all the federal agencies and the state agencies and the landowners and everybody that wanted to be involved. And we'd work to improve dam operations for a multiplicity of values like flows for fish, for recreation, for community safety, even like lake levels. You said here in Texas people like to build houses on reservoirs. Everybody does. I mean, it's a wonderful place to live and build a house. And homeowners rightfully so they want to see consistent lake levels, right. They don't want to see big massive drops, you know, on their beach in front of their lake house. Right. And so I'd work with, I'd work with homeowners to kind of figure out how we can operate this dam so we can stabilize lake level so we have enough water in the river that supports the recreational community that is safe because every dam operates differently. Right. And, but I was also got to be involved in some, in some dam removals in the Southeast too, in North Carolina. And I worked on this one dam removal in Rockingham, North Carolina. And I'm still in touch with the city manager, his name was Monty Crump and conservative guy in rural North Carolina. And river flowed through his town, small town of Rockingham, North Carolina. And, and at some point something clicked for him and he's like, we've got three of these old mill dams in our river and it's limiting our ability to develop a recreational economy in our community. And so we worked with him to take down these dams and then to help him promote a recreational economy, like kayaking down the river kind of thing. And we created, created a river trail and promoted the fishing. And you know, it's just, it's a cool, it's a cool story, you know, and, and I think that those are the types of opportunities we look for at American rivers. Like, you know, the, the win, win wins. Right. You know, we want, we want to, we, we really only want to work on projects that are multi benefit, not just benefiting the river, because the way we, we see river conservation, because rivers and water is so important for so many different reasons, right. It grows our food, it it's water that's in our taps, that comes out of our taps. It's places where we go for rest and relaxation and solitude. It's places where we fish. It's places where we kayak. So we want to push and promote and implement projects and policies that facilitate those. Win win wins.
• 26:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and it's not just, you know, everybody, like, think it's gotten so much worse. You know, everybody's, you know, it's everybody's loggerheads. You know, it's. You're either, you're either right or you're wrong. You know, it's all black and white in conservation. Whether you're talking about the Lester Prairie chicken or you're talking about water or you're talking about dams, you know, rivers, you know, it's so nuanced. There's so many different stakeholders in everything that you have to work with and navigate. But, you know, solving one problem, you know, by creating another problem doesn't help anybody.
• 27:22
  Speaker B: Never.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: And being able to look at the whole big picture and say, okay, you know, here's where we sit on this thing. This. So, you know, this, this dam is outlived its usefulness, you know, and we can't, we don't need it anymore. And if you take it out, you know, like Rockingham, you know, as soon as you said they got three of them in there, I'm thinking, man, you can't kayak or canoe that for nothing. Yeah, I'm like, if I get my fat rear end into, into canoe, it ain't going to want to come out for a while. One, that's one good thing about me is I'll keep the, I'll keep the, the, the point of balance pretty low. I'll keep that pretty low in there. So it won't tip very much. But if I, if I start falling over, we're all screwed. But, you know, when you look at the broad spectrum of issues that go into any con, any type of conservation and you look at, you know, everybody's, Everybody has their sacred cow. And you look at. And unless somebody, unless everyone is willing to work together to protect all the sacred cows in some way form faction in there, you know, you're going to have, you're not going to get anything done, you know, unless everybody's willing to work together and, you know, you gotta row the boat, all the, Everybody's gotta be rowing the same direction.
• 28:40
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker A: On it. And seeing an organization like you that tries to work with all the stakeholders and try to find a happy medium in there where you can go. That is a relatively, it's a relatively unique philosophy on it. As I see more and more organizations realizing, hey, you know, we gotta work together. It's not seeing more people too that are, that are stakeholders in it from the farmers or from, you know, the, the electric, you know, the industry or whatever that are like, hey, we've got to, you know, we've got to all work together in this thing. We got to try to figure out, you know, what's going on. You know, everything, you know and you know, everything changes. You know, that's the only, the only what's. My grandson. The only constant has changed. Sure. You know, that's the only thing that you've got that you can depend on it. It's not going to be the same, you know. You know, the rivers that I fished, the great example that where my granddad was had this, his lake house. I grew up going to this lake house. Well across from the, from his house on this river. We used to. It was far enough that it was a long, it was a long swim for a 12 year old, but not so far that you couldn't put a life jacket on and swim across the river to the granite rocks that were on the other side of it and hang out over there. And you know, I'm sure we were trespassing for all goodness sakes.
• 29:56
  Speaker B: But I mean it probably, probably felt like half a mile back then when you were a kid. Now when you see it, it's. Yeah, that wasn't that big.
• 30:05
  Speaker A: Like I could throw a football to that, throw it over that mountain there. But, but you know, it's watching that change and then watching how people get tied into what was.
• 30:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:18
  Speaker A: And they get married to a memory.
• 30:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:20
  Speaker A: And you don't realize what has to have. What's. What needs to go into like, you know, there's, there's a number of dams that I can think of off the top of my head that were built a long time ago.
• 30:31
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 30:31
  Speaker A: I mean what's Mead is over is what pushing 100 years, isn't it?
• 30:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, almost. I mean, 1930s.
• 30:38
  Speaker A: That's. Who is Hoover.
• 30:39
  Speaker B: Like me. It's Hoover.
• 30:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean that's, you know, 1930s when it was built. That's scary.
• 30:46
  Speaker B: That's the biggest, that's the biggest reservoir in the United States.
• 30:48
  Speaker A: It is. I mean, but it's also, it's a dam that's, you know, it's fairly old. I mean it's, it's getting a little bit long in the tooth. There. But you know, and you, you look at the declining lake levels and some of these things and you don't know what's happened in the tributaries sometimes. And you know, I see that in, in our area where we've got the Ogallala and we pumped it out and we pumped it hard. I mean, you know, cotton is king and we're in an area that for a long time didn't get enough rain to grow it. I mean it's. I was born a row crop, I'll die row crop. I manage vineyards now. I run a vineyard and I don't do any row crops at all anymore.
• 31:34
  Speaker B: But I gotta come visit your vineyard, drink some water.
• 31:36
  Speaker A: Feel free to. Well, I've got some next door.
• 31:38
  Speaker B: Excellent.
• 31:39
  Speaker A: Matter of fact, I think they got some over there that's open or gonna be open. But it's, you know, it's a challenge to change your thought process from when my, my father in law was a kid and his dad drilled his, the first well in the place that he had and was put a pump in it and it was pumping 750 gallons a minute to where you go from that to now that that well is pumping 50 gallons a minute.
• 32:07
  Speaker B: Maybe the drastic change in a short period of time.
• 32:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. And it changed and it wasn't because you know it's. And we do things as farming we're trying to get to is in this long, long word salad I'm throwing out here is that we've changed the way we irrigate, we've changed, you know, we went from, from ditch watering or where we flooded everything. Went from that we went to a hand move pipe where we put it out, hand movement pipe. Then went to side rolls. Then we went to Zomatics and water dry valleys. And now electric pivots and, and now the electric pivots are so, are so complex now that you, they've got a computer program in them. You can tell them you're going to water from this degree to this degree and then shut off and go to this degree and this.
• 32:52
  Speaker B: And you can control it on your iPhone.
• 32:53
  Speaker A: On your iPhone.
• 32:54
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 32:54
  Speaker A: I mean every well, like every, every, almost every farmer's got, you know, all their wells are controlled by iPhones. You know, they check it and say, okay, I'm pressing this pressure. And. But one of the things that we've noticed is that particularly from Lubbock North, a lot of people don't realize this Lubbock north used to have a pretty healthy population of ringneck pheasants up there. It Used to be a pretty popular hunting spot, everybody.
• 33:18
  Speaker B: I didn't even. I didn't know that. I love the pheasant hunt.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: It was great. I mean, you didn't have. You'd just go north. But what they had is they had a little bit tighter soil than we have in the south of Lubbock. So it was more clay and it held water more. But they furrow irrigated up there for probably 15 years longer than we did south of it because their water was more. Their land laid better for it and their soil was more suitable for it. But those, when they would flood, irrigate, they would have runoff pits. They have tailwater pits is what they call them, where the water would run into a pit that they dug and it would have water there, and that water would be freestanding water. And all summer for the pheasants, and it would pretty much have it all year for the pheasants. Well, when they switch to a more vastly superior from an evaporation in water and water use water effective efficacy standpoint in a certain pivot with say an ldn, which is a drift nozzle or even a bubbler that bubbled it right out on the ground, you cut runoff out and so you no longer had runoff. Well, that pheasants have to have water. You know, bobwhite quail don't have to have water, but pheasants have to have water. And so you make a little change like that, and it makes a big difference in, you know, it's the butterfly effect, you know.
• 34:30
  Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think that's like. And first, I just want to, you know, kind of caveat. I do a lot of work with agriculture because if you're not like. And taking this out of Texas for a second. So again, I just want to say I'm. Yeah. Not a Texas river water policy export expert by any means, but I've been working on the Colorado river for a long time. And if you're not working with agriculture in the Colorado river in the Southwest, you're not really doing river work.
• 35:00
  Speaker A: Right.
• 35:00
  Speaker B: And I also want to say that, like, I don't, you know, I work for a river conservation organization. I don't hold a water. Right. I don't produce food, anything else. So it's, it's. I just want to be very sensitive about that. But what we do do in our partnerships with agriculture is, you know, we, we. We advocate for agriculture, we advocate for incentives and for programs that do it. And, and when you talk about irrigation and. And the issue with the. Because what you're. What you're seeing when you. When you transition to a more efficient irrigation method with, you know, iPhone controlled pivots that now no longer does the like return flows go to these watering holes and everything else. It's the same. It's the same thing there. Right. So it's like most of the.
• 35:50
  Speaker A: Most.
• 35:50
  Speaker B: The irrigation in the Southwest and the Colorado river is flood irrigation. A lot of that water returns to the river and attenuates and keeps the river alive, kind of late season especially. So it's really, really important. It doesn't mean you're necessarily the east using less water if you change it. So there are always gives and takes. And recognizing the pheasant issue, a good pheasant hunting ground, North Lubbock, that no longer exists because of the irrigation change that happened, and there's no longer water for pheasants, and the pheasants aren't there anymore. Those are all things that we gotta consider. It's incredibly complex, but, yeah, it's a challenge. And again, I mean, it is so important that we're able to, for a number of different reasons, that we're able to produce food in these regions as Americans in these states. I mean, that's important. It's not only important on a big, big scale for national security reasons, but also for community reasons, like, if you stop producing food, these communities dry up. But also from like a river stewardship. Right. I mean, it's like, you know, producers, ag ranchers, farmers.
• 37:14
  Speaker A: Right.
• 37:14
  Speaker B: I mean, they are the stewards of their lands and their. And the water. Right. And without them, if they're dried up, we don't have rivers anymore. Right. And. And so, again, we really lean into. How can we support. Maybe not be the voice in front of it, but we have the ability to join ranchers or farming associations in D.C. and say we need these policies changed. And it's like, I can't tell you how effective that is when it's like me and the executive director of Colorado Cattlemen's and we got our arms around each other and we're saying we don't agree on everything, but we agree on this and how effective that is politically. Rivers really do connect us. And I think it's one of the few issues out there in this polarized political environment that we live in, where rivers and water are something that we can kind of collectively lean into. And. And, you know, I think it presents a model for things beyond rivers and water as well. Right. And so it's like. And I deeply believe that. Like, I deeply, deeply, deeply believe that. And, and so, you know, none of this is easy, but, like, it doesn't, you know, I'm going to keep, I'm going to keep trying. Right. You know, and you know, I grew up working on a ranch and I get it and like, and I just, it's again, it's, it's if, you know, if we're not trying to kind of build kind of partnership and collaboration in service to like the most important thing in the world, and I will defend that forever and ever, which is water, fresh water. Right. Then, you know, what are we doing? Right.
• 39:14
  Speaker A: Well, let me ask you just, I've got a couple more questions, then we'll wrap this thing up. The first one I wanted to ask you is from a, you know, the saying that the way you eat an elephant is one bite at a time for your average Joe or Jane on the street. What is one thing that they can do that, do you think, on top of that would help the help river issues?
• 39:42
  Speaker B: I get this question and kind of virtually every talk I do and every meeting I'm in and you know, for me it's, you know, depending on the audience that I'm talking to, but, you know, it's get engaged locally. So, you know, let your, let your city council member, your county commissioner, your state representative know that this is an important issue for you. If you're interested in the restoration of your rivers and the health of your rivers, join your local watershed group there. There are thousands of, you know, hundreds, probably thousands of like local watershed groups in the state of Texas. You know, they're under resourced, low in capacity and they need volunteers, they need support within their community. And they're going to be the best, they're going to be the best people to kind of connect with the issue locally again, it's incredibly, can be an incredibly complex issue, but those local organizations are going to know how you can engage. They're going to know the issues. They're going to know those issues in real time and then on a, on a higher level. Right. Like I, you know, check out American Rivers at www.AmericanRivers.org. and we work regionally, we're all over the country. And so you can also gives you a great opportunity to kind of learn about issues in other parts of the country.
• 41:18
  Speaker A: Fantastic. Next thing I wanted to ask you and had it in my head until I said the next thing I wanted to ask you, and then it just kind of fleetingly ran out my ear. So I'll Go to something else here real quick. When you're looking at. Good grief. I'm trying to figure out how I want to phrase this and get it just right. And I'm going to fail miserably at it. And we'll just see if we can make it. Make.
• 41:43
  Speaker B: At least I can. I can riff with the best one.
• 41:46
  Speaker A: So we're looking at. So the other question I wanted to ask you was about the buffer strips. You know, little bit about me. I am obviously a grape grower, farmer, agriculture. That's my day job. That's my night job. You know, that's what I do. But what I enjoy is the outdoors. Yeah, you know, I enjoy particularly, I enjoy upland bird hunting. That is. That is my jam. Love it too. Upland bird hunter. And it doesn't necessarily apply to where we are. You know, buffer strips don't. Because we don't have a lot of runoff. I mean, let me rephrase that. We have an inordinate amount of runoff. We just don't have an inordinate amount of runoff that runs into. Directly into rivers. Yeah, most of our runoff that runs into rivers is going to be from like the city of Lubbock, honestly, where they, you know, they paved everything that can, you know, that water can infiltrate to and it just runs into a playa, which then is pumped into Yellow House Canyon into the river there. But where you got the. In the, in the Midwest, upper Midwest, the water, the breaks that feed into like the Missouri and the Mississippi rivers up in that neck of the woods there has been in the past. And it started. The use of buffer strips was. Was fairly. Mostly it was just. People didn't farm it. Yeah, it was just kind of crap and they just didn't farm it. And then it kind of went to where, hey, we gotta, you know, every inch has got to be farmed because we have to, you know, the bills have to be paid, lots have to be kept on. And, you know, and that's just, you
• 43:24
  Speaker B: know, those are the pressures.
• 43:25
  Speaker A: That's the pressure that you're in. You know, it's. It's hard when the pressure is financial because that's what everybody sees in immediately. You know, financial pressure is immediate. You know, environmental pressure is. Yeah, that's going to be. That's, you know, that's a problem now, but it's going to be a real big problem for my great grandkids, but that's my great grandkids problem. And that's not to be selfish. They're not being selfish by saying that they're just living in the reality of I've got to feed my kids and going there, but it's starting to come back. Do you think that, and you may. You may not be able to answer this question or not, but do you think that there's going to be a push in the upcoming farm bill that is supposed to be coming, which will be the first one in forever?
• 44:08
  Speaker B: Well, we'll see.
• 44:09
  Speaker A: Do you think that there's a chance that they get more funding to increase the use of buffer strips?
• 44:16
  Speaker B: We hope so. I mean, it's a priority for us. And again, this is back to the incentives, Right. I mean, like, we're not an organization that's going to tell a producer of grapes or anything else. Right. Like, what they should or should not do with their land. But what we can do is we can advocate for incentives so they're, you know, financially compensated to protect the buffer around the river, to protect the riparian habitat, to, you know, protect or to allow the river to move appropriately, you know, when big floods come down and to recharge aquifers and to create habitat and, you know, a healthy riparian zone. I hope so. I mean, it's really, really important. But again, like, we can't get this. These types of things. Like, if I were to, like, snap my fingers and make a perfect world for rivers, they'd have all the space in the floodplain to do what they do and everything else. But people have developed in those floodplains. And so the key there, it's not everybody, but, you know, if we can kind of incrementally demonstrate the value and create the appropriate incentives so landowners are compensated for the ground they give up for not growing their grapes all the way to the end to, you know, pay their bills and buy the diesel and everything else, then that's what we aim to do. And I think over time and again, it's like, you know, it's eyes wide open with this. Like there's not a silver bullet. We are kind of not just Texas, but the country is facing a water crisis. Not even just the country, the world is facing a water crisis. It's also an issue that has the ability to kind of transcend politics. Yeah, right. And the dying of Thursday. But we also have to be eyes wide open. Like, wait. We like. If. If we want, as American rivers, to see floodplains restored and to create those buffer areas around rivers to benefit habitat and to let rivers kind of do their thing, and to everything else, we need to actively be involved in creating those incentives. The compensation for. For those landowners to get paid to do that. Yeah, Right. And so that's how we view the world. But again, the big message from my perspective, right, is that rivers and water are so unique. Right? It's such a unique issue that we know, all of us agree that we want clean water.
• 47:02
  Speaker A: Right.
• 47:03
  Speaker B: We want healthy rivers. And one of the things I. I built, like, you know, that kind of inspired a big project in Colorado with a bunch of ranchers, like a whole community. And I didn't, you know, I was just kind of talking like I'm talking now, but I made this comment as I'm trying to kind of build trust with these ranchers, and I was just like, you know, healthy ranches need healthy rivers. And they're all like, okay, yeah, let's go have a beer. Let's go do this.
• 47:37
  Speaker A: Right?
• 47:39
  Speaker B: So it's little things like that. And, you know, it's an incredibly complex, challenging issue that's like, you know, generational. I'm gonna. This is my life's work. I'm gonna die doing this. And I hope there's the next generation. We're actively trying to kind of work on next generation of people that are working on this issue. But, yeah, it's. It's, you know, it's what we do, and I deeply believe it.
• 48:07
  Speaker A: Well, I heard a saying the other day when I was doing some. Some things looking into Pheasant Forever operation that they were doing, and they said, you know, it's. It's not ours, it's just our turn.
• 48:22
  Speaker B: It's a great saying.
• 48:23
  Speaker A: That's a great saying. That's great. So, Matt, I appreciate your time. Excellent. Thank you very much.
• 48:27
  Speaker B: This was so fun.
• 48:28
  Speaker A: Give us your.
• 48:28
  Speaker B: This was great.
• 48:29
  Speaker A: Your email, your. The American Rivers contact information.
• 48:33
  Speaker B: Yeah. So American Rivers, where our website is www.AmericanRivers.org. and I'm. I'm traveling a lot and everything else, but my email is mricemericanrivers.org and reach out to me. Got questions I like.
• 48:53
  Speaker A: We're.
• 48:53
  Speaker B: We're working to kind of build an effective, impactful, meaningful program in Texas. And I want to hear from everybody, because I don't know Texas yet. I'm learning and I've.
• 49:06
  Speaker A: I look forward to seeing American Rivers growing and getting active in Texas. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with it, and I'm looking forward to getting back in and looking more with what you've done in the past. And one final thing to wrap this completely up.
• 49:17
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 49:18
  Speaker A: What's your favorite river to fishing?
• 49:19
  Speaker B: Colorado oh my gosh. Like, I, I get asked this question a lot and if I will, I
• 49:25
  Speaker A: will say onyx real quick and you can, you know, pin a couple of spots.
• 49:28
  Speaker B: Oh, I can, I can, I can do that. I, I got it. I, I gotta say like, because I've also done a lot of work on it and everything else. The main stem Upper Colorado river is remarkable and it's a great story of like collaboration and partnerships that were unimaginable 10 years ago. Like ranchers, Front Range water providers that are pulling water from the Upper Colorado river, conservationists like us. And collectively we've done big projects, we've made planning, we've got like the trust now where we can, we can benefit the river with flows and reservoir releases upstream. And it's like the most, one of the most loved reaches of river in Colorado. But it's also like, you know, as we measure like biodiversity biomass for trout fishing and stuff. Like, you know, it's in some states it's gold medal. Some places it's blue ribbon and, and it's like triple gold gold metal, blue ribbon in, in like certain sections. And it was kind of a dying river like 15 years ago. I love it. The upper, the Mainstown, Colorado is, is just amazing.
• 50:39
  Speaker A: Well, I'll have to.
• 50:39
  Speaker B: My other favorite river is the Yampa River, Northwest Colorado through steamboat and downstream.
• 50:44
  Speaker A: I will tell you, I have not done, I've done very little fit fly fishing in, in col. In. Well anywhere. Yeah, it's always been one of those things that I, you know, anybody that watched the river runs through it.
• 50:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 50:55
  Speaker A: Has you know, dreamed about. But you know, I watched him fly fish in that thing and it's just beautiful. They big, nice cast and everything. And my back, every third back hit back back cast for me as a tree. I mean I, I'm the best lumber fisherman on the planet Earth. But.
• 51:11
  Speaker B: Well, you know, fly fishing is how, you know, how I got into this. I was a fly fishing guide for years and years and years and like, yeah, I, I, you know, I think it. At one point I realized that, you know, just because of how important rivers are for all kinds of things. They grow our food, they provide our water. They're like central community places. You know, we love rivers for so many different reasons and we need rivers for so many different reasons. But at one point guiding I realized that, that wow. I think I love rivers more than I love fly fishing and I, I absolutely love to fly fish.
• 51:52
  Speaker A: Right.
• 51:52
  Speaker B: Like that's, that's what I do. But it's well, as.
• 51:56
  Speaker A: As a. As a bird. As an upland bird hunter, I can promise you I love watching my dog run more than. I like shooting that I like shooting birds. I mean, that's. You know, and I like shooting birds.
• 52:07
  Speaker B: It's kind of. It's kind of the same thing.
• 52:08
  Speaker A: The same thing. It's, you know, it's the process, and it's the, you know, the. It's the nuts and bolts of what makes your. What you want to do available. You know, that's. I. I have a hunting buddy used to. He gets mad at me because he's like, why are you still. You're looking at the ground all the time. I'm like, because all the stuff they eats on the ground, and if I can't see. See it down there, then I got to do something to make sure that it's there. And it's the same thing. If you're the same thing. If I'm looking at a river and there's not any fish in the river, why is there not any fish in the river? I got to make sure that there's stuff in the river.
• 52:38
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 52:39
  Speaker A: Matt, thank you very much for your time.
• 52:40
  Speaker B: So fun. Thank you.
• 52:41
  Speaker A: Take it easy.
• 52:42
  Speaker B: Have a good day. Thank you.