Latest / Women of Color An Intimate Conversation / What Are You Mixed With? Navigating Anti-Blackness, White Supremacy & Light-Skinned Privilege with Dr. Wendy Ashley

Transcript

What Are You Mixed With? Navigating Anti-Blackness, White Supremacy & Light-Skinned Privilege with Dr. Wendy Ashley · Women of Color An Intimate Conversation

• 0:02
  Deneen L. Garrett: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to Women of Color in Intimate Conversation. Today, we are switching things up as we, on occasion, do, and we have a, I'm gonna call it a special guest, because it's somebody that I connected with on LinkedIn. He's invited me to some things, on the East Coast. I was supposed to go to some things on the East Coast. We haven't, met
• 0:27
  Deneen L. Garrett: up yet, but soon, it's gonna happen soon. So today, we have Dante T. Muse.
• 0:34
  Deneen L. Garrett: He is a cultural producer, the former owner of Above Art Studios in New Brunswick.
• 0:42
  Deneen L. Garrett: Co-founder of the Heart Festival, a best-selling author on entre… excuse me, artpreneurship, I love that, and now serves as a director of artist relations for the Harlem Fine Arts Show, and the Centennial Program Manager for Newark Symphony Hall.
• 1:02
  Deneen L. Garrett: His work sits at the intersection of culture, creativity, and legacy.
• 1:08
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, Dante, tell us a little bit more about you.
• 1:12
  D. Muse: Okay, so I am,
• 1:15
  D. Muse: a creative and an artist myself in a few different mediums. You know, started with writing and instrumentation, you know, as a kid, and kind of always been in the arts, but always alongside of.
• 1:29
  D. Muse: What people would consider more,
• 1:35
  D. Muse: stable, you know, careers and pathways and all of that, and a lot of times, people understand that it's not the easiest to make a consistent income through the arts, so, you know, they try to guide you through other means. So…
• 1:49
  D. Muse: went to school for, my master's is in public administration, so now, you know, I'm doing arts administration.
• 1:57
  D. Muse: But it kind of took a little while for me to combine everything properly and figure out what,
• 2:06
  D. Muse: Kind of my purpose was…
• 2:08
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, and that's… that's pretty much the path of, of…
• 2:12
  Deneen L. Garrett: folks of a certain age, if you will, you know, a lot of creatives wanting to go down that route, and at the time, you know, there probably wasn't a lot. As you stated, there wasn't a lot of ways to make money, but today, there's so many different ways.
• 2:29
  Deneen L. Garrett: When you're in art, because as you mentioned, you know, I kind of dropped your, your resume, and then you mentioned how you are a creative yourself. And so those… there's so many different paths that you can take.
• 2:41
  Deneen L. Garrett: gallerist, a curator, artists, you know, and even more. So we'll kind of talk about some more things. So I want to set the tone.
• 2:51
  Deneen L. Garrett: And in setting the tone, I'm kind of introducing something that I'm working on, right now. It's just an evolution of how I empower women of color, but specifically Black women. So, the conversation is about choosing yourself, trusting your gifts, and building legacy through creativity.
• 3:11
  Deneen L. Garrett: values that sit at the heart of the Dream Lifestyle Collective, which is a community that I'm building for Black women 50+. So, let's kind of, you know, go back… back in the day, when did you first realize that the traditional path, career path, wasn't your path? Like, you kind of touched on that, but when did you, like, say, you know what, I can.
• 3:33
  Deneen L. Garrett: you know, go back into art. Like, what was that catalyst?
• 3:38
  D. Muse: Well, I had, I got fired. That was the catalyst.
• 3:45
  Deneen L. Garrett: Right?
• 3:46
  D. Muse: That was, that was kind of interesting.
• 3:47
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:49
  D. Muse: Yeah, right? So actually, actually at this time, I was in, the automotive industry,
• 3:57
  D. Muse: And I actually had… took a vacation,
• 4:02
  D. Muse: About 10 days out the country, and, you know, was getting real sun and real food and everything, and it was like…
• 4:08
  D. Muse: all types of, I guess they call them downloads now, or whatever, but, just different revelations, was happening to me, and I could feel…
• 4:17
  D. Muse: changes happening to me, and actually, I… that's when I stopped eating meat, all at the same time. Like, I came back, I couldn't eat, you know, the food anymore, like, just so many things were… was just happening. When I got back, I was in a… kind of like in a cloud, and, the general manager…
• 4:35
  D. Muse: Because I was a manager at the dealership, but the general manager came and had a conversation with me, and my whole demeanor was just kind of like.
• 4:43
  D. Muse: I don't care, because that's kind of like it was. I was in the space. Like, I wasn't, like, you know, disrespectful or anything like that, but everything about me was just like, yeah, alright, bro, whatever. And then, like, 5 minutes later, which I already knew, one of the other managers called me in the office and had the conversation with me, and I was it. I was done. So at that point, I was like, you know what, let me…
• 5:02
  D. Muse: Let me do my own thing. Let me…
• 5:06
  D. Muse: be in a position to create opportunities for other people, and that was 2016, that's when I opened the art gallery. And initially wasn't planning to open an art gallery, I was in music, at the time, and me and one of my partners were doing, like,
• 5:23
  D. Muse: getting artists, like, production deals and stuff like that, kind of getting them, like, prepped for, labels, before they actually got to the labels and got, like, their deals and stuff like that. So I wanted… we were doing shows with the showcases for music and all that behind that, and we were looking for a space to continue doing that.
• 5:43
  D. Muse: That we can actually control versus renting other spaces from everybody else and putting money in everybody else's pocket, you know? And then we were coming from, you know, managing, nightclubs and being,
• 5:54
  D. Muse: You know, promoters and everything, and again, just making everybody else rich.
• 5:59
  D. Muse: And not being able to have any real control over things, witnessing, you know, price gouging when it was our time, and our nights, and all of that, like, you know, drinks of, $12 and $14 on our nights, and $8 and $10 every other night is, like, this is ridiculous, you know? And just…
• 6:17
  D. Muse: Being tired of being taken advantage of, and again, not having a voice or control, so, we looked to open up our own space, and during that process, we ran across one of, our other brothers, and he was, an artist, a painter.
• 6:33
  D. Muse: And he was speaking about opening up a gallery space, so we had the bright idea to combine all together and open up a gallery. And then the artist…
• 6:43
  D. Muse: actually, like, a month before we were gonna open up the gallery, decided he just wanted to do his own thing.
• 6:51
  D. Muse: But at this point, I had already told everybody I was opening up an art gallery, so… me being who I am, I gotta open up this art gallery, because I done, you know, went and told everybody this. I can't look crazy, you know? So, only way I'm not gonna deliver on the promise is, like, you know it was absolutely no way, you know, I couldn't do it, so I'm gonna figure out how to make this happen.
• 7:11
  D. Muse: So that started the journey, and I did a crash course, you know, in…
• 7:17
  D. Muse: the visual arts, ran across a legendary, artist who… I only had him for 2 years, he passed away, in 2018, but, he became a mentor and kind of expedited.
• 7:32
  D. Muse: I guess my legitimacy in this space,
• 7:36
  D. Muse: There were so many people trying to work with him, and the fact that he was, you know, working with me, just kind of opened up a few doors.
• 7:47
  D. Muse: And I was in the art space, you know, and just kind of grew from there, so I had to become a professional, just in…
• 7:56
  D. Muse: Before we opened the gallery, me and my…
• 7:59
  D. Muse: Partner, that opened it up.
• 8:02
  D. Muse: We went to… I think it was something like…
• 8:06
  D. Muse: 16 galleries in, like, 15 days or something, including driving from Jersey to North Carolina to see a grand opening of a black art gallery, just to see, you know, what the flavor was gonna be, what we might like, how we might present things differently in our way. Just really took a crash course.
• 8:23
  D. Muse: And, you know, became a… I guess at least it's semi-professional for me.
• 8:29
  Deneen L. Garrett: I love that, and so there's several things that I want to touch on, but I need to rewind back to this trip. What… where did you go? What island? Because some of us might need to go there as well, so we can come back and just be totally renewed.
• 8:42
  D. Muse: So, so I actually, I went to Columbia. Okay.
• 8:46
  D. Muse: I went to, Bogota for 3 days, and then I went to, Medellin for 3 days, and then I went to Cartagena for 4 days.
• 8:57
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay, okay, and I know you went to Gethsemane when you were in, Cartagena.
• 9:02
  Deneen L. Garrett: The art area.
• 9:04
  D. Muse: You know what? I don't even recall, I might have. I think, yeah, I think I went through everything over there.
• 9:11
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay, so if you don't remember, then you probably didn't go, because the area is… it's their artsy area. It's… it's, you know, near, outside of, like, the old area, like, where that fort is, but it's where they.
• 9:23
  D. Muse: Yeah, they got the old castle and the new.
• 9:25
  D. Muse: Yes.
• 9:26
  D. Muse: Okay, I remember seeing a long mural. Yes. But yeah, I was in both the old and the new, because I was there four days, so yeah, so I spent time on both.
• 9:35
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay.
• 9:36
  D. Muse: pieces.
• 9:37
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's beautiful. Okay, so it's Colombia, so for those who are listening or watching, if you want to be renewed, then you need to take a trip to, to Colombia, and the three destinations that Dante visited, Bogota, Medellin, and Cartagena, so you want to renew? You want to come back like Ari, you know? Like, man, it's all good, like, hey, I'm cool with that.
• 10:01
  Deneen L. Garrett: That's where you need to go, it sounds like. So, the things that I wanted to bring up, because you mentioned them, and they're so very important. So, one of the first things that stood out to me is that you said you wanted to create opportunities for other people, which I absolutely love.
• 10:16
  Deneen L. Garrett: The other piece is you wanted to own something, right? So I'm hearing that as wealth, building wealth.
• 10:23
  Deneen L. Garrett: Which could turn into generational wealth, and…
• 10:26
  Deneen L. Garrett: I also heard you say, making it happen, like, you're gonna make it happen unless there's just no absolute way to do that. And we know that, really, with a lot of things, there's always some kind of way, it's just a matter of how much
• 10:39
  Deneen L. Garrett: effort do we want to put into it? Like, how many no's are we willing to hear before we get to that yes? And then the other thing that I wanted to kind of, stretch out a little bit is legitimacy.
• 10:51
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, with the legitimacy, you know, you said that this artist, he was a coveted artist, he said yes to you, so that kind of puts you on the map.
• 11:02
  Deneen L. Garrett: itself.
• 11:03
  D. Muse: Yeah, so even then originally, it took him, a little bit before I actually was able to exhibit him.
• 11:12
  D. Muse: But just the… the fact I was able to call him, my mentor when a lot of people wanted to, you know… because he still made me work for it. But yeah, he didn't… he didn't just, you know, totally back me and bring all his, audience and all of that stuff, anything like that. Mostly, what he did was help me avoid, pitfalls.
• 11:33
  D. Muse: You know, some traps I could've got caught up in, not dealing with…
• 11:40
  D. Muse: certain people, and then maybe only in certain capacities if I really needed something. You know,
• 11:47
  D. Muse: because you kind of can't trust everybody, give everybody responsibilities and all that as well. You'll be caught looking bad at the end, you know, even though you gave somebody else that bad. You the one that looked bad at the end. So, so a lot of things like that, was really what he helped on.
• 12:03
  D. Muse: the… When we were doing our grand opening, We didn't have,
• 12:10
  D. Muse: Any art up until 2 days before the grand opening.
• 12:14
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay. It happens!
• 12:16
  D. Muse: Yeah, we literally had no art.
• 12:20
  D. Muse: Took us a couple months to renovate, and it was like,
• 12:24
  D. Muse: I think we spent, like, $22,000 renovating, getting the space ready and everything. But when we did the opening.
• 12:33
  D. Muse: we had went and found artists originally, on Instagram, and we had contacted them, and we were essentially asking them to…
• 12:46
  D. Muse: trust us, and they didn't know us from anything. You know, we don't have this background in the art space, you know, we're art dealers with… with no,
• 12:56
  D. Muse: collector's list, or anything like that, you know? So we had to convince the artists, and I'll never forget, and I think, and I know, it's because…
• 13:08
  D. Muse: how it worked out, that it happened. We had, 3 artists that were, like, willing to…
• 13:17
  D. Muse: You know, come in and meet with us and give us a, you know, conversation and everything.
• 13:22
  D. Muse: And they came down to the gallery to check out the space and all of that, and they all came pretty much the same time. And that wasn't planned.
• 13:32
  D. Muse: You know, so it was like them seeing each other.
• 13:36
  D. Muse: and checking out each other's work and seeing how legit each other were was like, okay, if this artist at this caliber is willing to be in this, then I'm gonna be in this too. And they kind of legitimized each other and was like, you know, then it all came together. Then once I got, two of them.
• 13:54
  D. Muse: ended up being, like, part of my five, what I would call, like, my core artists, really, that I pretty much had in every exhibition for the first couple of years. Two of those gentlemen were in there, and from there, it's like…
• 14:07
  D. Muse: everybody else kind of fell in, you know, fell in the line, from there, so… Yeah, but we were… we were really prepared to just go out and just buy a bunch of art, and then hope we could resell it, you know, at that point, because we like, we ain't… you ain't got no gallery with no art, so I'm like, at this point, you know, what we gonna do? So, you know, we had a contingency plan, you know, if it had to happen, but…
• 14:30
  D. Muse: You know, it worked out.
• 14:32
  Deneen L. Garrett: And so, from that, what I'm taking… you know, they say it takes that one yes, and it sounds like you got two yeses at the same time, which just opened up some more yeses, so that's something that's important to… for us to, you know, to…
• 14:46
  Deneen L. Garrett: hone in on, you know, it takes that one, and you had that backup, and the backup wasn't… wasn't needed, but you were prepared, right? You weren't ready to just throw in. You knew that you had a destination, and that it takes different routes to get to that destination, and in this particular case, you didn't necessarily have to go down that other route. So, was this the above art studios that we're talking about?
• 15:10
  D. Muse: Yes.
• 15:11
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay, so what did you want it to represent for the culture?
• 15:17
  D. Muse: You know what? When I started, it was really a lot more of a selfish thing.
• 15:26
  D. Muse: It kind of became what it became. It opened up, a lot of doors.
• 15:31
  D. Muse: I really just wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it.
• 15:36
  Deneen L. Garrett: Hey, that's me. You know, yeah, like, I…
• 15:41
  D. Muse: I started throwing… Parties, pay parties at 11 years old.
• 15:46
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay.
• 15:48
  D. Muse: Yeah, started early, and started DJing at 12, so when I wasn't throwing my own parties, I was, you know, getting paid to DJ and stuff, at other people's parties, like.
• 15:57
  D. Muse: and then I was doing parties all through college, like, I got partied out kind of early, you know, then we was in the nightclubs after that and everything, so, I was tired of clubs. I wanted an alternative for entertainment, you know, something cool, you know, funky fresh to do, something safe to do, you know, we…
• 16:16
  D. Muse: we never had to pat people down, you know, when they were coming through our doors, or the gallery. Like, it just wasn't that type of energy, based on the things we wanted to do. So it's like, if I wanted to hear poetry, then I have a spoken word night, you know? If I wanted to,
• 16:31
  D. Muse: you know, both support and become more, acquainted with, and sample some new brands or whatever. You know, I have a black wine tasting, you know, I'll do, like, whatever it is
• 16:41
  D. Muse: I wanna see, I'll just… I'll do. You know, I have a body painting event if I wanna see some models get painted for my birthday, you know, we call that the birthday suit party. I did that for a few years for my birthday. You know, it's like, alright, what do I wanna do? I wanna have fun. I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna promote it and market it, and if you into this type of stuff too, come down and enjoy, we gonna have fun together.
• 17:01
  D. Muse: you know, I kind of set it up because this is what I want to do, you know, so it was… it benefited other people and everything, but it really was, admittedly from a more selfish kind of, standpoint where it generated from.
• 17:17
  Deneen L. Garrett: Hey, and I'm all about being selfish, right? I think that we don't take care of ourselves enough. We're continuing, you know, we're doing stuff for other people, and we lose ourselves, and then when you, like, oh, what do you… what's your dream? Like, what are your goals? Like, you have to really think about it, and sometimes you don't even have answers, so I'm all about…
• 17:36
  Deneen L. Garrett: self, right? Because when you do take care of self, like you said, other people do benefit from that.
• 17:42
  Deneen L. Garrett: People like that, other people.
• 17:43
  D. Muse: Yeah.
• 17:43
  Deneen L. Garrett: naked and paint their bodies.
• 17:46
  D. Muse: Yeah.
• 17:46
  Deneen L. Garrett: Like what you said, they, you know, they want to do that, but what's really standing out to me… so I'm fairly new to the art scene, so I would say I started collecting right before the world shut down, so it was that… the Saturday that, the first Saturday in March of 2020, I purchased my first piece by a Black African, a Black woman artist in Houston, Linda Simeon Kelly, so I bought my
• 18:11
  Deneen L. Garrett: first piece then. And then I started collecting. I bought several more from her, commissioned a couple, then started, you know, getting some other artists. Then, fast forward, I attended what we have here in Detroit, the Detroit Fine Arts Breakfast Club.
• 18:25
  Deneen L. Garrett: Which is, every week they meet for artists, collectors, those who are interested in art, and so the artists get to show their pieces.
• 18:33
  Deneen L. Garrett: And they… and they're for sale, right? And so I started buying more of that art, right? And then I was like, well, what can I do in this space? Like, how can I make money so I can buy more art? And so I learned about some of the things that, like, you were doing 8, 9 years ago, which I know it had to be harder then than it is now.
• 18:53
  Deneen L. Garrett: Would you agree with that? Or tell me about your experience, now versus then.
• 18:58
  D. Muse: As far as the actual selling of the art?
• 19:02
  Deneen L. Garrett: No, just a re… just every… like, all the things that you were doing back then, you know, people are doing today, but to me, I'm just thinking, again, because I'm new to it, I'm thinking it's easier to do those things today than it was back then, because my understanding is a lot of people didn't really buy into
• 19:21
  Deneen L. Garrett: Literally and figuratively, mentally didn't buy into Black art.
• 19:26
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, it could just be me, it could just be where I'm at, I don't know. But, like, how was your experience just doing it.
• 19:33
  D. Muse: No, yeah, it was…
• 19:37
  D. Muse: Yeah, I would definitely say it was… it would be more difficult to do it, you know, back in 2016 than it would be to do it in 2026, for sure. There was a…
• 19:48
  D. Muse: piece that we had to be cognizant of, in the educating, of our audiences, in terms of…
• 19:59
  D. Muse: Quality,
• 20:02
  D. Muse: you know, really justification of the prices. You know, there's not… they shouldn't be arbitrary, it really should be some type of formula into why a piece costs what it costs.
• 20:16
  D. Muse: and, you know, getting over, sticker shock, you know, getting them used to payment plans, not that we wasn't used to payment plans, but I don't think anybody really, you know.
• 20:28
  Deneen L. Garrett: Right, lay away.
• 20:30
  D. Muse: I don't think really anybody thought of, like, payment plans for a piece of art, like, you know, they'll do ones for some Balenciagas or some red bottoms or something, you know, put those on layaway, but, you know, when they come to art, they're just a little bit different.
• 20:43
  Deneen L. Garrett: Like, oh, I can't wear that, nobody's gonna see that.
• 20:46
  D. Muse: Exactly, nobody… yeah, who gonna see that?
• 20:48
  Deneen L. Garrett: Who don't see that?
• 20:49
  D. Muse: I'm spending this type of money, like, what does this say about, you know, because it's in your house, so only
• 20:54
  D. Muse: that's gonna see this coming in there type of thing. You're not letting anybody in your house. So…
• 20:59
  D. Muse: So yeah, that's… you can't kind of wear it as a badge, versus, you know, them $500 sneakers you just put on your feet.
• 21:07
  D. Muse: So, so yeah, it was… it was a piece in that as well. We got…
• 21:13
  D. Muse: A lot of things actually sold through,
• 21:19
  D. Muse: kind of like impulse, like, people just really being in the space. It wasn't a whole lot of us going to art galleries, you know, 16, 17, 18, 2019, like, it wasn't a lot of us going to art galleries like we are now. There's groups around, you know, visiting art and all of that stuff, like, it is a lot easier now.
• 21:39
  D. Muse: So I had to…
• 21:42
  D. Muse: get people there based off of the events. Like, I would say half of the people that was coming to the gallery didn't know it was an art gallery until they found out about the events.
• 21:52
  D. Muse: Some of them might have, you know, found out, like, oh, where is this at? Oh, Bob Barstudas, what is that? And then they went and looked at, oh, some of them just saw, saw the address, and they came and walked around, like, wow, what is this? Like, I had no idea, and I'm like, you know… but if I would have just said, come to the art gallery, they wouldn't have came. But if I'm like.
• 22:06
  D. Muse: Like, you know, come for, you know, this event, they'll come to the event, it just happens to be hosted in the art gallery.
• 22:13
  D. Muse: I love that. So I had to get, you know, creative.
• 22:16
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yes.
• 22:17
  D. Muse: and trying to figure that out, because, especially in the beginning, like, selling art wasn't our main source of income. It really was the events, and the events helped sell the art, just basically off of numbers.
• 22:32
  D. Muse: Because if I'm bringing in, you know, 200-300 people in a month, through events.
• 22:37
  D. Muse: that's a lot of opportunities for people to, you know, to buy art. Most art galleries aren't getting 200 to 300 people come through a month to look at art, you know? Yeah.
• 22:47
  D. Muse: so that, you know, that definitely was able to help, so just the volume in that. So just figuring out creative ways, you know, to make things happen, to make the artists happy that their pieces are selling, and the hair gaining collectors and everything, and just continue, kind of, the growth from there.
• 23:08
  Deneen L. Garrett: No, and you know what, and I love that, because for me, I was like, oh, I want art in accessible places, right? I want that when you go to restaurants or to the coffee shop in different places, you happen to look up, like, oh, there's art, and it's not just there, oh, it's…
• 23:22
  Deneen L. Garrett: accessible. Like, I can buy that piece, and I think I first saw that at, Hilltop Cafe, Coffee Cafe in LA. Issa Rae is one of the partners. So, in her coffee shop, she has this beautiful art all on the walls, and you can buy it.
• 23:40
  Deneen L. Garrett: And so that was my first time seeing that, and so, what, 3 or 4 years later, when I did my first event.
• 23:47
  Deneen L. Garrett: it was in a coffee shop, and it was basically because of that. I was inspired by Issa to do that. So you, you had a gallery, however, like you said.
• 23:57
  Deneen L. Garrett: you had events that were going on, and art just happened to be on a wall. So, yes, we definitely do have to get creative and out of the box, with how we present, art to people. Because my goal is I do want to create, inspire 100 Black, art collectors. So, I would love… so that's been my goal, or, you know, my thought for a while.
• 24:21
  Deneen L. Garrett: For the last couple years, and so I would love to, you know, still see that happen. And so you are giving some ideas, so for people who are interested in having a gallery or, you know, doing events and infusing it with art, like, listen to what Dante is saying and, you know, hearing from, his legacy in this space as an artpreneur. So, love it, love it, love it.
• 24:42
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, what did this space… You wanted to say something?
• 24:49
  D. Muse: No, I was just gonna say, just,
• 24:53
  D. Muse: Just making sure whatever it is, you decide that, that goal is gonna be.
• 25:00
  D. Muse: you… you work backwards and top-down from there, so everything… even the run of show for your events have to, lean towards that. So, like.
• 25:10
  D. Muse: we intentionally put time, you know, before the events, like a cushion, for people to have opportunity to look at the art, you know, so they're not just coming in and out, you know, you know, intermissions, announcements, sometimes we do, you know, raffles and everything around it, so just kind of…
• 25:29
  D. Muse: Being intentional with… with everything, knowing your audience and kind of how you need to guide or goad them, you know, to make something happen.
• 25:39
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, so, you know, the podcast is about empowering women, right? And so, whatever we talk about, I want to make sure that, you know, that the audience is left with those, and so that's why I've been, you know, pulling out some things. But what I want to kind of talk about is
• 25:55
  Deneen L. Garrett: What did holding that space, being in this space, being, you know, having your gallery, the experiences that you had these past, 8-plus years, what did it teach you about legacy?
• 26:10
  D. Muse: That it takes consistency?
• 26:16
  D. Muse: And what it is that you do, so you have to decide what it is you want to do, so you can be consistent in doing it, and that you have control over it.
• 26:26
  D. Muse: Even if you decide you want your legacy to be something different at some other point in time, as long as you're now consistent towards that, at some point, you'll start to be known for that, and that'll also become part of your legacy. But ultimately, it really means…
• 26:45
  D. Muse: how you touch other people, the effect you have on other people, what are other people gonna say or remember about you when you're not here, that's what legacy is. You know, the stories that come up, you know, when they're at your services sending you away, or something happens, you know, they see a certain…
• 27:00
  D. Muse: you know, a show or a song or something, like, You Come to Mind, like, that's… that's the legacy.
• 27:08
  D. Muse: So, ultimately, what do you want people to… to say about you? What is it that… that you… you do? And… and… and even though… and it's… it's truthful, but it's…
• 27:19
  D. Muse: also slightly playful when I say, you know, I'm doing everything, like, selfishly, but I do,
• 27:27
  D. Muse: almost always think about how this is also going to affect other people, because, you know, I can't… as my mother always told me, I don't live in the silo, I'm not on an island, you know, you don't just do things where they just affect you. So… I think about…
• 27:45
  D. Muse: like, in terms of empowering women, like, pretty much every Women's History Month, we did a women's exhibition, you know?
• 27:53
  D. Muse: We did one of our, probably.
• 27:55
  D. Muse: best attended exhibitions, which actually wasn't during, Women's History Month, we did a exhibition for, it was, I think it was called Mussolima, but it was all Black women, Muslim, women artists. Like.
• 28:12
  D. Muse: And I know…
• 28:14
  D. Muse: You know, when art was sold, you know, hearts were touched, and relationships were really nurtured, through that, and…
• 28:24
  D. Muse: I know that that did a lot, and at some point, you know, some of those 13 women artists that were part of that, or anybody that came to do that, is going to remember that, you know, like, that's… that's legacy.
• 28:35
  Deneen L. Garrett: Absolutely. And then another thing you mentioned about the approach that you took with your events, that's the approach we can take with life as well. Figure out, like, the end result, where you want to get to, and back into it, right? And that's also part of legacy, what you just talked about. That's part of events, that's also part of just winning at life, just what is it that you want?
• 28:56
  Deneen L. Garrett: out of life. There is this book called About Damn Time, and it's by Arlen Hamilton. And what stood with me out of that book is she said, write your own headline.
• 29:06
  Deneen L. Garrett: So you just said, like, at, you know, at the end of your life, you know, what people are going to say about you, like, write your obituary, write your, you know, that… an article or something. What do you want people to say about you? What do you want to be known for? What legacy do you want to lead? And then back into that, live your life to make that happen. So let's shift into your writing and educating.
• 29:27
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, your books have helped so many emerging artpreneurs. What inspired you to start writing?
• 29:36
  D. Muse: Art is bothering me, really.
• 29:39
  D. Muse: And I needed to…
• 29:40
  D. Muse: Yeah, I needed to figure out a way to get some information out without, having to talk all the time, or have them have access to me when, you know, I wasn't there, and stuff like that. So, and it's also part of Legacy. I'm like, let me…
• 29:59
  D. Muse: because I was learning through all this practice.
• 30:01
  D. Muse: remember I started this, I didn't know anything. So it's like, let me,
• 30:06
  D. Muse: Trying to figure out a way to document this?
• 30:11
  D. Muse: And also…
• 30:15
  D. Muse: have this information and be what wasn't readily available for me when I was looking to start this.
• 30:22
  D. Muse: So it's like, I've learned these things, let me put this down, so if anybody that's coming after me, they can have an easier time.
• 30:29
  Deneen L. Garrett: Right? Yeah.
• 30:29
  D. Muse: It was a lot of trial and error. I did it relatively fast, because I was just trying everything. So, you know, it seemed like I kind of always had… I didn't. It just, you know, it was a lot of trial and error. And then I wanted to be able to learn more things, and kind of how the brain typically works. One second.
• 30:49
  D. Muse: Stop you.
• 31:07
  D. Muse: Okay, sorry about that.
• 31:09
  D. Muse: So we, no, what was I saying? I forgot.
• 31:15
  Deneen L. Garrett: About how the brain works and documenting.
• 31:19
  D. Muse: Yes, okay, so…
• 31:22
  D. Muse: That's prime example, right? So anything that is not about, like, safety or, you know, survival, like, anything that the brain feels like, it doesn't need to have, like, readily available for you, it either files all the way in the back, or, like, it, like, tries to forget or anything, right?
• 31:41
  D. Muse: But…
• 31:42
  D. Muse: I wanted to not forget this stuff, so it was like, alright, let me put these down in these books as a way to be able to kind of go back and refer to anything. And then it was just like…
• 31:57
  D. Muse: I don't know, chapters, I guess, of… of the journey again. So, it's… it's both a way for me to document, what I've learned, and document my growth, and also be able to give shortcuts, to other people, because like I said, you know, one of them…
• 32:14
  D. Muse: one of his mentors really helped me to avoid, some pitfalls and everything, and I just wanted to be able to do that as well, you know, for other people. And so, like, he's never… he was an artist his whole life, and he, you know, prolific in Newark, and when Basquiat came through Newark, he was, you know, in his crew.
• 32:31
  D. Muse: was doing, you know, tagging trains with all of them, you know, and all of that with them.
• 32:37
  D. Muse: so he was known for that, but he never had his own space, so it was things that I still had to learn on my own that he kind of couldn't, you know, tell me or teach me, from an experience perspective. So I made sure I put that in, you know, in my writings and everything, too. But it was really the, you know, one.
• 32:55
  D. Muse: to get people to stop bothering me, but also to help become an authority in the space, because the root word for authority is author, right? So if I become an author, then that gives me authority in the space.
• 33:07
  Deneen L. Garrett: Exactly, exactly. People are like, oh, you want to be a speaker? You need a speaker? You need to write a book. So, yeah, so that's something to pay attention to as well. If you have something to say, write it down and get it out there. So what… if there was just, like, one thing you would tell an artist based off of everything that you learned, what is that one thing you would tell them, and why?
• 33:30
  D. Muse: Hmm.
• 33:34
  D. Muse: One thing…
• 33:43
  D. Muse: I mean, ultimately, I guess, top line, it would be to not give up.
• 33:48
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay.
• 33:49
  D. Muse: But, if you…
• 33:51
  D. Muse: just keep doing the same thing that's not working, that's also not necessarily the best thing either, and it can be extremely frustrating, too. So, as you're persevering, you kind of need to always be…
• 34:05
  D. Muse: Adjusting.
• 34:07
  D. Muse: You know, but… Top line, I would say don't give up.
• 34:12
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, and what I like to say is pivot, right? Because, like I said earlier, you know, when you know where you're trying to get, you also have to know that there's different ways to get there. So if you go down that one street and it's blocked, then turn and go down a different street, but the point is to know where you want to get to, and to keep going to get there.
• 34:32
  D. Muse: Yeah, and in 2018, I said I wanted to be… An art king.
• 34:39
  D. Muse: And… at the time, I had no idea what that was, it just sounded good, and I said that probably for about a year.
• 34:47
  D. Muse: And actually got, interviewed, me and my, my gallery partner, and
• 34:55
  D. Muse: the title of the magazine I was interviewed in, the title of the article was,
• 35:00
  D. Muse: Black Art Kings, actually. But that was definitely heavily suggested by me. Kinda leaned on it a little bit. I was like, yeah, you should put Black Art Kings. But I said I wanted to be that, and… and maybe for a year.
• 35:13
  D. Muse: I didn't know what that meant, and I didn't realize what that meant.
• 35:17
  D. Muse: a year after, when somebody asked me, was like, so what does that mean? And I stopped and was like, hold up, let me figure that out. I don't know.
• 35:25
  Deneen L. Garrett: Right?
• 35:25
  D. Muse: what that means. And then I started, I guess,
• 35:32
  D. Muse: filling that in, and then going along down the journeys and everything like that. So, yeah, my first book came out in 2018 when I decided, you know, I wanted to be
• 35:44
  D. Muse: and Art King, I'm like, I need to have my name be, you know, searchable, you know what I mean, around this art space and all that stuff again, so there was a lot of, you know, factors into… into how I disseminated the information.
• 35:55
  D. Muse: But it was…
• 35:59
  D. Muse: I didn't feel pressured initially to define what that was, but I know when I said it, it sounded good.
• 36:06
  D. Muse: And then, kind of from there, I started to fill it out, and, you know, slowly but surely, it's fun and a way to, you know, manifest, so…
• 36:17
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yep, because that's what I'm… that's what I heard. I'm like, oh, you attracted and manifested that, right? And then also what it actually means for you, and then… and then to be that, and realize that you have been that. And some… it works that way. Sometimes you're being something, and then, you know, you're doing, and whatever, and you're like, oh.
• 36:34
  Deneen L. Garrett: here's a name to it in association, so it happens that way as well. So let's kind of talk about the Harlem Fine Arts Show. So tell us about that. What does artist stewardship look like at the Harlem Fine Arts Show?
• 36:49
  D. Muse: Well, the Harlem Fine Arts Show is the largest and longest running,
• 36:55
  D. Muse: show in North America that focuses on artists from the diaspora.
• 37:02
  D. Muse: It was started and founded
• 37:06
  D. Muse: this is gonna be the 18th show, or the 19th show, coming up in February. It's every February, in New York City. And so, of course, it was started in… originally in Harlem. It was…
• 37:19
  D. Muse: a traveling show at first, so they have, put on events in DC and Chicago, I think they've been to Detroit a few times as well, Atlanta, North Carolina, stuff like that.
• 37:32
  D. Muse: it is currently now only taking place, at the Glass House, which is in Midtown Manhattan, because it kind of…
• 37:41
  D. Muse: grew out of Harlem a little bit, so now we're making sure that people understand that, you know, Harlem is everywhere. It's really about the energy, you know?
• 37:50
  D. Muse: Like, a couple things I've been doing have been…
• 37:53
  D. Muse: around Centennial, so 100 years ago, we were right in the middle of the Renaissance, and while the Renaissance was going on in Harlem, it was going on other places as well, simultaneously, you know, New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, you know, Harlem, of course, was the hub, because, you know, New York was the hub, so,
• 38:13
  D. Muse: But really making sure That,
• 38:17
  D. Muse: that energy is everywhere. So we have about 100 different booths,
• 38:23
  D. Muse: I can't tell you how many different artists, because there's galleries in it who represent multiple artists as well. But it is a 3-day event, in February 20th, 21st, and 22nd, in 2026 will be the next time it's happening. So, we do about…
• 38:40
  D. Muse: you know, $500,000 of sales in art over that, you know, 3-day week, and a lot of collectors, panels, talks, you know, food, vendors, like, it's a really good time. Actually, just walking in the building and just seeing…
• 38:55
  D. Muse: us, you know, and all that beauty just feels really good. Like, your heart is full, just looking around. You ain't gotta take a step past the door. Like, you get in there, you're just like, wow, this is…
• 39:08
  D. Muse: amazing. So yeah, that's how they… that's how they got me, aboard in this situation. I actually got invited by one of…
• 39:17
  D. Muse: the presenting, gallerist, who wasn't gonna be able to make a VIP opening event, and just asked me did I want to go, and, you know, I went up there and just got enamored, and then…
• 39:28
  D. Muse: got recruited by the general manager. Next thing I know, kind of just being there, being in the space, enjoying myself, doing what it is that I do, he noticed me, and we started conversations from there, so… But yeah, that's definitely part of the journey along, becoming an art king.
• 39:45
  Deneen L. Garrett: I love that, and so…
• 39:46
  Deneen L. Garrett: You said yes, right? You were positioned… you were in the right place at the right time, and you said yes. And that's something that I would tell people. For years, I would say, I… it was my adaptation of what Richard Branson, the founder of Virgin Air, and what a Virgin Air, all the Virgin… what he would say, but basically say yes and then figure it out, right? And so I had been a proponent of
• 40:11
  Deneen L. Garrett: of that for the longest. Say yes.
• 40:14
  Deneen L. Garrett: And then figure that thing out. And so I still do believe in that, like, be positioned, especially…
• 40:20
  Deneen L. Garrett: I'm gonna say now, if you're going somewhere, like, in somewhere and you love it, and you might have some things that you want to accomplish, be ready to say yes. And then, you know, figure it out.
• 40:32
  Deneen L. Garrett: how to make it happen. And often, when it's in alignment.
• 40:36
  Deneen L. Garrett: you don't have to figure anything out, because it's Iranian alignment, right? You went there open for that thing, and then that thing,
• 40:43
  Deneen L. Garrett: manifested for you. So I'm gonna plug, I'm gonna put myself in, let's figure out something for me to do at this Harlem Fine Arts show. So I'm gonna leave that with you. We won't have to talk about it now, but I put it out there. But let's talk about the Newark Symphony Hall Centennial. So that's coming up, is that in 2026, or…
• 41:03
  D. Muse: Yeah, so, the actual anniversary was in September 2025, but we're celebrating it all of 2026, you know, into, so it's been there for 100 years, so from January to December, we're actually gonna be, opening a new space, we're gonna be activating.
• 41:23
  D. Muse: different salon talks and everything every month around, the 100 Years of Legacy, that Newark Symphony Hall has experienced, you know, all the way from.
• 41:34
  D. Muse: Marian Anderson performing in 1940, being the first black person, you know, being able to perform in there, you know, operatic singer, you know, just really going over the history and legacy of.
• 41:45
  D. Muse: the impact in the people that have come through the hall over the years. You know, all the performers, the, you know, Jimi Hendrix did the…
• 41:54
  D. Muse: concert for Martin Luther King, you know, the day after he passed, that was at Newark Symphony Hall, you know, where he went on for, like, 3-4 hours or something like that. You know, a lot of history has happened, so just celebrating and, you know, reminding people of the legacy.
• 42:10
  Deneen L. Garrett: Oh, you know what, you have a busy 2026.
• 42:16
  Deneen L. Garrett: Wow, so we… make sure there's some self-care going on in there, okay? Because you have a lot going on.
• 42:23
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, where do you see the future of Black artprewnership going?
• 42:28
  D. Muse: Well, I mean, I was a little more excited about it before, you know, the orange guy got in and started cutting a bunch of money for the arts. Like, one of the first things he did when he came through the door, so,
• 42:43
  D. Muse: So now, I'm observing. I'm kinda just…
• 42:48
  D. Muse: just moving to complete, you know, all these mini tasks we talked about that, that I gotta do, and just watching to see, you know, what's available, how things are moving, and getting in where I can fit in. That's pretty much what I'm on right now. I'm not even sure, because…
• 43:04
  D. Muse: I'm waiting to see who's still gonna be left standing, you know, at the end of the day.
• 43:11
  D. Muse: thank God there's some people that are, like, I know Elon's ex-wife or whatever threw, like, a billion assignments in the arts and stuff like that. Like, there's people kind of doing stuff, from the private sector. I don't know how…
• 43:27
  D. Muse: effective that's gonna be, and, you know, filling all the gaps, but… I mean, I'm really just observing right now. I don't… I don't know exactly where it's gonna go. I can be hopeful. Collectors, they're still becoming more, Black collectors.
• 43:42
  Deneen L. Garrett: So that's a good, you know, trend.
• 43:45
  D. Muse: But yeah, I'm just really not making too many predictions at this moment, just, kind of being in my own, own land and, checking my, my boxes.
• 43:56
  Deneen L. Garrett: No, and you know, and I hear you, right? Because I know I… I totally knew it was gonna go a whole different way, so I feel you on the not making predictions, right? Just waiting and seeing, but, you know, keeping it moving. And the thing about it is, we've been here before, right? We… this is how we…
• 44:13
  Deneen L. Garrett: we're used to this, we thrive, we're resilient, we're, you know, we bounce back, you know, like we said, we just have to figure out another way to make it happen. May not be as big or splashy, but it will be intentional, and it'll still get done on, you know, on the level that it's supposed to at this time.
• 44:31
  Deneen L. Garrett: So, again, I created, or building, the Dream Lifestyle Collective for Black women 50+, who are reclaiming their creativity and reinvention. So, what wisdom would you share with women in this season of their life?
• 44:50
  D. Muse: Excuse me. Hmm.
• 45:00
  D. Muse: That there's a…
• 45:05
  D. Muse: I don't know if I want to say a niche, but there's, there's a market.
• 45:13
  D. Muse: You know, there's a market for what it is that you want to do.
• 45:19
  D. Muse: You might have to, you know, do a little homework, or maybe get some help in figuring out, who was in that market.
• 45:27
  D. Muse: But…
• 45:29
  D. Muse: you can use everything that you have to your advantage. So, you can use your age to your advantage. You figure it out. If you don't like to speak a lot, you can use that
• 45:41
  D. Muse: to your advantage. You can write the books, you know? I do a…
• 45:48
  D. Muse: a reel, on Instagram, where I'm giving information, and I'm not talking, the words are popping up, and I'm swiping them off the screen, you know, I'm not saying anything, so it gives me an opportunity to, still…
• 46:03
  D. Muse: Help people without…
• 46:06
  D. Muse: having to speak and without having to give out a whole lot of information, because reading is not gonna be as fast as talking, so, I can get kind of concentrated, you know, little pieces and everything, which can stretch things further. So, like, there's…
• 46:22
  D. Muse: always a way for you to use, both your strengths and your weaknesses, to your advantage, or perceived weaknesses, I would say. But, you know, just be creative in not only your creativity, but in everything else around promoting your creativity.
• 46:41
  Deneen L. Garrett: I love that, and what I love about what you said is use it to your advantage, right? Because there is advantage, with us being 50+. There's… we're just starting to live, like, you know, I'm talking to different women, and, you know, you think that they're like, oh, you know, we're just sitting and back and watching TV all day. No, no, no, no, we're living our best lives, and I want more of us to do that, and so that's why I
• 47:05
  Deneen L. Garrett: Put together this collective, because
• 47:07
  Deneen L. Garrett: earlier in the conversation, when you were talking about travel, like, that's the number one thing that I do. That's… that's what just brings me joy. Travel, travel, travel. So anytime someone talks about a trip, having been somewhere, like, my… you know, I'm in on that, because that's just what I do, and that's what brings me joy, but I had to learn that, and then when I learned that, then I started leaning into that.
• 47:28
  Deneen L. Garrett: So let's, you know, we're coming to, you know, the close, and so when you think about everything you've built.
• 47:37
  Deneen L. Garrett: what do you hope your legacy says, right? We talked earlier about the headlines and about what people say after, you know, what… what's one headline, maybe, you want someone to say about you?
• 47:54
  D. Muse: Hmm.
• 47:58
  D. Muse: I don't… I don't know if I know that yet.
• 48:00
  Deneen L. Garrett: Okay.
• 48:03
  Deneen L. Garrett: It's… we're still working on the dot dot dots.
• 48:05
  D. Muse: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:06
  Deneen L. Garrett: Ash.
• 48:06
  D. Muse: Yeah, still, still working on it.
• 48:10
  D. Muse: Yeah, ultimately, what I do enjoy, what does fill me, And I guess, kinda… makes me…
• 48:23
  D. Muse: blush, at least internally, is when… People have memories of things.
• 48:33
  D. Muse: that I might not have realized kind of had, a certain amount of impact, that I might have just… it could have been something that was so, you know, menial to me, it didn't mean a lot, whatever, but it meant a lot to them.
• 48:46
  D. Muse: I like when people make me aware of things like that, and they tell stories, and like, I remember you did this, you know, for me back then, you know, or you was the first, you know, gallery I was in, which, you know, I put that on my TV, and then that got me into this space, and then, you know, then I was able to do this, and stuff like that, like… like, I like…
• 49:07
  D. Muse: you know, when people are telling stories, and I'm kind of included, like, it's… it feels good to… if somebody's blowing up, to be like, you know, I knew them way back when, you know, stuff like that.
• 49:21
  D. Muse: you know, your… your local hometown heroes and everything that are famous now, or whatever, like, you know, like… like in Newark, there's a bunch of people are like, oh yeah, I know Michael B. Jordan, you know what I mean, stuff like that. It's like, yeah, you don't know him personally, you just happen to be from, you know, the same cities and like that, but if you actually know him personally, if you actually, you know, his first play was a play you wrote, or it happened at your, you know, your venue, or things like that, like, being a part of that story, like, I like to be a part of the story, like, oh, I was
• 49:46
  D. Muse: when this happened, or I saw this in this person, so I went and did this with them, you know, and type of things. Like, I like…
• 49:53
  D. Muse: Stuff like that, so ultimately, I mean, I guess…
• 49:57
  D. Muse: Yeah, it's what I believe legacy is, like, people remembering how you touched their lives, you know,
• 50:04
  D. Muse: So yeah, I just want people to be like.
• 50:07
  D. Muse: You know, he… he touched my life.
• 50:09
  Deneen L. Garrett: Yeah, I love that. Impact. That's… that's exactly what you're talking about, is impact, and which is not surprising, because again, in the beginning, you mentioned how you wanted to do things to give other people opportunities, so yes.
• 50:22
  Deneen L. Garrett: you wanting, you know, your legacy to be that, you know, I was part of that person's story, I made a difference, I had impact, absolutely, that's not a surprise. So, specifically for Black women, what do you hope those who are listening or watching take from your journey?
• 50:51
  D. Muse: I mean…
• 50:53
  D. Muse: that whatever I was able to accomplish, you should be able to do at least 3 times over. Like, I believe, you know, there's nothing more powerful than a black woman.
• 51:05
  D. Muse: I've always been…
• 51:07
  D. Muse: supported by them throughout my whole life. I don't know what I would do without them. I know they're typically more, resourceful than even I find myself being, so again, if I can do it, I just, I, you know…
• 51:26
  D. Muse: I know it can be done by any Black woman, so, make sure…
• 51:32
  D. Muse: That you find alignment with, what fulfills you, and figuring out how you're going to… both.
• 51:41
  D. Muse: Serve other people and simultaneously fulfill yourself, and that'll lead you to figuring out what it is that you should be doing. But yeah, you got it done, consider it done, black woman.
• 51:53
  Deneen L. Garrett: Alright, I love that! So, Dante, thank you for sharing your brilliance.
• 51:57
  Deneen L. Garrett: And to everyone who's listening or watching, follow his work on IG at IMDMuse. He's on YouTube and LinkedIn, Dante T. Muse. And if you're a Black woman 50+, ready to dream, design, and drive your next boat chapter, learn more about the Dream Lifestyle Collective at Deneenogarrett.com. And until next time, thank you, everybody.
• 52:21
  Deneen L. Garrett: Bye, Dante!
• 52:23
  D. Muse: Right.