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Medicine without judgment: When protocols override patients · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  Hard-hitting medical truth, cutting through conflict and confusion to the understanding you're searching for.
• 0:15
  Join Dr.
• 0:16
  Peter McComa, world-renowned medical expert and practicing physician for this edition of the McCullough Report.
• 0:24
  Your life may depend on it.
• 0:26
  It's uh it's definitely a crazy time.
• 0:29
  And so, you know, you um were very outspoken about this, uh, certainly, and um you've spoken on the difference uh many times between um the uh concept of science, the difference between discovery and using science as an institutional authority.
• 0:48
  Trust the science has now become a uh common social media argument uh and certainly a slogan even for those years.
• 0:55
  You have more than a thousand publications, 685 citations in the School of Medicine Library, the National Library of Medicine.
• 1:05
  How would someone in your position define what is science?
• 1:09
  Science is a process.
• 1:10
  You know, it's a process that involves uh you know observation, hypothesis testing design of a research approach, you know, collecting information, and then ultimately analyzing and making the conclusion.
• 1:28
  So science is a process.
• 1:30
  Nobody owns it.
• 1:33
  Nobody has agency over science.
• 1:35
  So a couple examples where we knew the hubris was uh far out of control.
• 1:42
  One uh moment, Anthony Fauci said, he said, uh, you know, anybody who's attacking science attacks me.
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  I represent science.
• 1:54
  I am science.
• 1:55
  Yeah, I am science.
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  Another one closer to us here is Dr.
• 1:59
  Peter Hotez in Houston.
• 2:00
  Now, Jotes is junior to me academically.
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  And yet uh, you know, I was a frequent media commentator on uh Fox and OAN and Real America's Voice.
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  He was the one of the commentators for CNN.
• 2:14
  And uh he started an entire uh lecture series on this.
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  In fact, he went to universities around the country in Texas, and uh he said the dangers, dangerous um rise of anti-science.
• 2:33
  Anti-science.
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  So there's science and there's anti-science.
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  So I take I took a look at his platform, and you know, everything that he says is science.
• 2:43
  Everything that disagrees with him is anti-science.
• 2:48
  Oh.
• 2:50
  So this is a form of leverage.
• 2:53
  In fact, anti-science is one of six propaganda terms.
• 2:58
  Probably everybody listening, we should go through this.
• 3:00
  You want to recognize propaganda in this uh time because propaganda is a tool that people use to gain leverage over one another.
• 3:12
  They use it to um, in a sense, grab moral superiority to put somebody down while they push themselves up.
• 3:21
  That's what propaganda does, pressing their views onto somebody else.
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  So uh the first one is misinformation.
• 3:29
  Misinformation.
• 3:30
  I never even heard that word.
• 3:32
  Do you know it came on the scenes in 2021 like uh 2020, like gangbusters?
• 3:38
  It became by 2021, it became a mesh term in the National Library of Medicine.
• 3:42
  It's a scientific term.
• 3:44
  Do you know that Oxford has a misinformation index that it can judge you?
• 3:51
  And um we look back on it, it came into the English language around 1500, was you 1800, it started to become uh uh more widely used, and then it really went wild in Nazi Germany with uh Goebbels, the Office of Propaganda.
• 4:08
  So essentially anybody who disagreed with the Third Reich was spreading misinformation.
• 4:14
  Right.
• 4:14
  Okay, so immediately then they could create misinformation policies.
• 4:18
  Well, you're spreading misinformation.
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  We need to prosecute you for this.
• 4:24
  Well, the same thing happened in COVID.
• 4:26
  You know, the American Board of Internal Medicine created a misinformation policy, then prosecuted people.
• 4:32
  The next term is uh disinformation.
• 4:35
  Now, disinformation, a slight variation of it, but who used that?
• 4:39
  Stalin in post-World War II Russia.
• 4:42
  You know, you could be accused of spreading disinformation, and uh the new communist regime could come after you.
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  The third one is malinformation.
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  Then there's uh uh um anti-science, uh, which we've covered, anti-vaxxer.
• 5:01
  Yep.
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  Anti-vaxxer.
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  Wait, wait, wait.
• 5:03
  Vaccines are just you're not either, you're not pro-vex or anti-vexer.
• 5:08
  That's like saying you're a pro-ace inhibitor, anti-ace inhibitor person.
• 5:13
  You know, it's just another thing.
• 5:14
  You know, vaccines are another tool we use in medicine.
• 5:17
  Yeah, but this anti-vaxxer became this pejorative propaganda term.
• 5:20
  And then uh the last one, conspiracy theorists.
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  Conspiracy.
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  Conspiracy, there's nothing wrong with with you know coming up with theories, and there's nothing wrong with conspiracy.
• 5:32
  It means you work together.
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  So uh, you know, the best way to handle that is to say, listen, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm a rational theorist.
• 5:40
  I have rational thoughts and theories like we all do, and we should be able to discuss them.
• 5:45
  But these six propaganda terms are used to shut down people.
• 5:51
  Let's go over them again.
• 5:52
  Misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, anti-science, anti-vaxxer, and conspiracy theorists.
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  So we should always recognize these propaganda terms.
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  I don't use them.
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  So I've never accused anybody of spreading misinformation.
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  No two people have the same exact views.
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  Each person's views are equally recognized, and we should discuss them.
• 6:14
  Wow.
• 6:15
  Yeah, no, that's definitely the all those terms are just so easily thrown around.
• 6:20
  And I almost wonder if it's because maybe the general population doesn't want to believe that there could be a uh a bigger truth.
• 6:28
  I mean, it's so easy to just turn on the news and say, oh, well, that's what's happening.
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  Click, you know.
• 6:32
  Oh, well, you bring up a good point.
• 6:35
  In today's world, what we have is we just have click bait.
• 6:42
  So somebody can take a picture of something and then say, well, this represents this without any verification.
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  You know what I mean?
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  Have you ever seen this?
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  Well, this represents this.
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  And I always wonder, is this real?
• 6:58
  Is it not?
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  You know, it came up recently.
• 7:00
  Came up recently.
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  I maybe I shouldn't say this, but my wife brought it up.
• 7:00
  I maybe I shouldn't say this, but my wife brought it up.
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  I came home.
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  I came home.
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  Have you seen this story about Christine Gnome's husband?
• 7:05
  Have you seen this story about Christine Gnome's husband?
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  Byron Gnome.
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  Byron Gnome.
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  Have you seen?
• 7:11
  Have you seen?
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  Now she was our head of uh home Homeland Security.
• 7:12
  Now she was our head of uh home Homeland Security.
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  Her husband, you know, to me, I always thought he was a stand-up guy, he's a professed Christian and what have you.
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  Her husband, you know, to me, I always thought he was a stand-up guy, he's a professed Christian and what have you.
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  Well, there's pictures of him wearing large fake women's breasts and taking you know doofy pictures in the mirrors.
• 7:21
  Well, there's pictures of him wearing large fake women's breasts and taking you know doofy pictures in the mirror or something like this.
• 7:31
  And uh then it says pictures of Christine Gnome's husband surface uh cross dressing.
• 7:37
  The first thing that came to my mind is is it just photoshopped?
• 7:41
  Sure, right?
• 7:42
  Well, who knows nowadays?
• 7:43
  Right.
• 7:43
  Have you have you done AI in yourself?
• 7:45
  Oh, of course.
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  All right, wait, on myself?
• 7:47
  Yeah.
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  I have.
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  Aging and everything.
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  Oh, yeah.
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  And what do you think?
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  It looks pretty.
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  It's amazing.
• 7:54
  Yeah, it's scary.
• 7:56
  So uh Alex Jones told me that they did somebody did an AI of Tucker Carlson's voice calling him, and he couldn't tell the difference.
• 8:06
  Wow.
• 8:07
  Yeah.
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  So AI can create images of us, they can clearly replicate our voices.
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  Uh and so I think we should always question.
• 8:16
  And you know what, Dustin?
• 8:18
  It emphasizes there's no substitute for the face-to-face.
• 8:22
  Yep.
• 8:23
  There's no substitute for reading a print book.
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  It's not fake.
• 8:28
  You can actually read it, it's not altered.
• 8:30
  Anything else can be altered on the internet and certainly with artificial intelligence.
• 8:35
  There's definitely a movement, I think, in the youth as they refer to themselves these days, going back to physical media, CDs, tape players, there's uh nostalgia there, there's more interest.
• 8:46
  I think the idea of subscribing to iTunes and constantly paying Netflix, and then if you stop paying, you lose all of your content, you know, it's it's sort of wearing, I think, on the younger generations.
• 8:58
  That's my interesting observation.
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  My daughter is just uh the one or two years ahead of uh or after Gen Z.
• 9:06
  So my daughter's 30.
• 9:07
  And it's funny you mentioned it because uh, you know, one of her treasures is the old LP record turntable.
• 9:15
  Yeah.
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  Right.
• 9:16
  Treasure, key word.
• 9:17
  Yeah.
• 9:17
  Exactly.
• 9:18
  Um I want to uh close back a little bit on on what people think science is before we move on to the next topic.
• 9:24
  Um a lot of people think science just means randomized, double-blinded controlled trials.
• 9:30
  Um, but really uh historically medicine has relied on observation, clinical judgment, and certainly I think during the early part of COVID, there was perhaps some concern with the safety uh and efficacy of certain treatments that were being promoted.
• 9:44
  Uh we didn't really have time even at that time to develop really you know large scale studies.
• 9:49
  So I think you are seeing this just on a clinical level, an observational level, and that's what got the ball started.
• 9:55
  There's always been uh a critical role for observation and what's called empiricism.
• 10:01
  Remember when a new problem pops up, in this case a pandemic virus, no one knows what to do.
• 10:09
  There is no established foundation, there's no fund of knowledge.
• 10:13
  And so the very first doctor who attempted to treat a patient and help them in some way, established what's called the community standard of care.
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  The community standard of care initially is established by empiric treatment.
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  And it evolves over time.
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  Doctors find what's successful, what's not, patients give them feedback, and then we mature and mature, and then we get somewhere between five and twenty years on a problem, we do have large prospective, double blind, randomized placebo controlled trials, but they don't appear uh you know out of the ether, and they they're certainly not pre-made for us for problems.
• 10:59
  And then it's very important to understand that even when we have a large trial, it's something we integrate in our clinical practice, but it rarely directs us.
• 11:09
  This is what I mean.
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  So uh you know, it's been analyzed that if you take any patient with any problem, the patient's so sufficiently complex that within a few steps in their history, we don't have any randomized trials that apply to them.
• 11:30
  That is such a good point.
• 11:32
  Go ahead.
• 11:32
  I'm gonna think about it.
• 11:33
  So I mean yeah, here's an example.
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  So um uh there's a patient, and the patient has had a kidney transplant, and he has coronary artery disease, and he's on drugs that are lipid lowering, but now he has a low testosterone, and we want to know will the low testosterone reduce or increase his risk of cornea heart disease.
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  No randomized trials that actually match that patient subtype.
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  That happens all the time.
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  So randomized trials are are they don't define community standard care.
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  They never do.
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  There's something we can integrate, they're they're great to have.
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  Randomized trials do something that nothing else can do.
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  It's very important.
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  They control for all the known and unknown sources of confounding, and they also control for selection bias, that is the doctor or the patient selecting their treatment.
• 12:27
  Uh and because they handle those two, uh, they elevate in terms of uh level of evidence, but they never take that dictate what we do.
• 12:35
  Right.
• 12:36
  Exactly.
• 12:37
  And I can't think of a better example also for the pain management world when you think about the subjectivity of pain itself, even if something is simple as epidural steroid injections, you know, there's uh been sort of a growing movement to eliminate them from the treatment protocol.
• 12:53
  Really?
• 12:54
  Um simply because the people looking at the numbers, they see, well, there's nine million injections, maybe they only cost $100 each injection, but across nine million, and then they don't see that there's curing or long-lasting functional improvement, that type of thing.
• 13:10
  But the subjectivity of it, especially when you look at the studies, I mean, you have to consider not only are the patients perhaps not reporting their pain the same because it is a subjective report, physicians' expectations, multiple confounding, where they're going in the spine for the injection is also a consideration, the skill level of the injector.
• 13:30
  And then who's agreeing on what a meaningful outcome is?
• 13:33
  Perhaps if we do an injection in the clinic, but it only gets you two months, but hey, it gets you to your child's wedding next month, and we can avoid surgery for another six months.
• 13:41
  I would say that's a win for a relatively low-risk, low-cost procedure, but unfortunately, not everybody looks at it like that.
• 13:48
  Um, fair point, you reminded me of a famous uh vignette where there's uh a young person like you has a terrible car accident and is now paralyzed in a wheelchair.
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  Now paralyzed in a wheelchair.
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  And they do an assessment, subjective quality of life.
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  And they do an assessment of subjective quality of life.
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  And it's it's your first day in the wheelchair, and say, hey, will you fill out this quality of life survey?
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  And it's it's your first day in the wheelchair and say, hey, will you fill out this quality of life survey?
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  And you fill they fill it out and say, my life stinks.
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  And you fill they fill it out and say, my my life stinks, it's horrible.
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  It's horrible.
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  I can't walk.
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  I can't walk, I'm stuck in this wheelchair, I've got to have a fully catheter, somebody needs to help me on the toilet.
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  I'm stuck in this wheelchair.
• 14:19
  I've got to have a fully catheter, somebody needs to help me on the toilet.
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  It just couldn't be worse.
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  It just couldn't be worse.
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  And you take that same person with that same disability and a year later have them fill out the same quality of life survey.
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  And you take that same person with that same disability, and a year later.
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  It's like, well, it's not so bad.
• 14:35
  So the point is people adapt, right?
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  And so quality of life is called the term we use is called PRO, patient reported outcomes.
• 14:43
  Quality of life is challenging because people always keep adjusting the baseline.
• 14:50
  Yes.
• 14:51
  That's true.
• 14:52
  Even for people who don't have disabilities, let's say they're living, just your expectation of what your life trajectory is going is going to change your quality of life.
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  It's all perception.
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  And of course, we have multiple studies for folks going into a particular procedure.
• 15:06
  If they have a positive expectation of that procedure, chances are they'll have a positive outcome.
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  And the inverse is true.
• 15:12
  If you feel like, hey, I, you know, this doctor sucks, this procedure sucks, my life is over, probably you're not going to have a great outcome just with the power of expectation.
• 15:20
  But isn't some on the doctor side?
• 15:23
  So for instance, if the doctor, if the doctor mumbles, well, this may work, it may not work, I'm not really sure.
• 15:30
  Oh, yeah.
• 15:31
  We'll give it a try, as opposed to the doctor saying, this is gonna make you feel better.
• 15:37
  Right.
• 15:37
  So this idea of I used to say this when I teach the students in residence, that we need to inject confidence into what we do.
• 15:45
  The last thing I want to do is see a doctor or a nurse who's not confident in what they're doing, right?
• 15:52
  Particularly on procedures.
• 15:53
  It's like getting into an airplane.
• 15:55
  Do you want the pilot to say, well, you know, I'm an okay pilot?
• 15:59
  Maybe we'll land, maybe we won't.
• 16:01
  Uh you know, uh I'm kind of okay.
• 16:05
  Yeah.
• 16:05
  Or you want a pilot who's who's there.
• 16:08
  Pilots and doctors and others, we're edge players.
• 16:11
  You want a pilot who's an edge player.
• 16:13
  So, listen, I'm the best pilot in the world.
• 16:16
  And if we get in trouble, I'm probably the only guy in the world who can land this.
• 16:20
  Do you remember when um this plane engulfs the birds and uh it's stuck and it's literally gonna crash into New York City and he lands it on the Hudson.
• 16:29
  Totally.
• 16:30
  Yeah.
• 16:30
  You remember that?
• 16:30
  Yeah.
• 16:31
  So he he's what I call an edge player.
• 16:35
  And uh, you know, I I think particularly some of these doctors, cardiac surgeons, neurosurgeons, they have to be edge players, you know, interventional cardiologists.
• 16:46
  I, you know, train with those guys.
• 16:48
  You know, they have to make decisions.
• 16:51
  They have to make these decisions.
• 16:53
  Oh, do I have a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial to see that you know I've got to get this patient off the bypass pump and make some decisions?
• 17:01
  No, you have to make decisions.
• 17:05
  And it's based on clinical judgment.
• 17:07
  And what we saw with the pandemic is that suddenly the clinical judgment was gone, and everybody back sat back in fear and waited for Anthony Fauci to tell them what to do.
• 17:19
  Yep, almost by design.
• 17:21
  Um, but yes, I I to close on that.
• 17:24
  A lot a lot of neurosurgeons get hate for their persona, they're, you know, think they're next to God and all of these things.
• 17:30
  And maybe they could tone it down just a little bit, but to your point, they do have to enter a room with confidence, knowing that they are the best damn surgeon in the room that can save the life when they are called to do so.
• 17:42
  Yeah, that that's it.
• 17:43
  And you know, yeah, a surgeon, you're not gonna see him once every three months or six months in the clinic for life.
• 17:49
  No, you're gonna see him for an operation.
• 17:51
  Right, right.
• 17:52
  I always tell the surgeon, spare me all the drama, just do a high-quality surgery.
• 17:57
  I'm the medicine doctor, I'll take it from here.
• 18:00
  Yeah, I just need you to do the surgery.
• 18:02
  Yeah.
• 18:03
  So at what point, you know, you're starting to see some issues that are coming up in your clinic, in your cardiac patients.
• 18:11
  At what point did you um think, you know what?
• 18:14
  Um, the institutional response is deviating from what I would expect traditional medical values to dictate.
• 18:23
  You know, I was uh at a major medical center here in Dallas, and I was on uh the some of the COVID response committees, and I was in charge of research aspect, but I was on all the calls.
• 18:35
  And initially we were frightened.
• 18:37
  We we saw what was going on in Wuhan and then Milan, Italy, and New York, and and I remember soon.
• 18:43
  We had some meetings, and somewhere at critical care doc said, listen, you you know, we're gonna assign some of the younger people to, you know, be in the hospital and deal with these really sick people and some of the older doctors, you know, we're gonna hold you back because we saw this age gradient in terms of mortality.
• 19:01
  And uh I was so impressed with their courageousness.
• 19:04
  I didn't feel too courageous.
• 19:06
  I, you know, I'm more of an outpatient doctor.
• 19:08
  I'm I'm not wasn't gonna be on that that front line.
• 19:10
  I was trying to develop uh research protocols.
• 19:15
  But most of the meetings dealt with personal protective equipment, who's gonna get the masks, who's gonna get hazmat suits, reverse ventilation.
• 19:23
  And I started listening to these calls, and after two or three of these, we're talking through January, February, and probably early March of 2020.
• 19:32
  I realized, wait a minute, nothing here is for the patient.
• 19:36
  Everything is to protect the doctors and nurses.
• 19:39
  What about the patients?
• 19:42
  What's in it for them?
• 19:43
  I've heard enough about how we're going to protect ourselves.
• 19:46
  How are we going to treat the patients?
• 19:47
  And I remember one of these calls.
• 19:49
  I remember, wait a minute, I said, listen, if we don't start treating patients early in the course of this illness, they will end up in the hospital.
• 20:00
  And there was an all-hands-on-duck call, the National Institutes of Health, and I was on that call, and I learned a lot from that.
• 20:05
  There were thousands of people on that call.
• 20:07
  Uh one of the things I learned, and I want to say this was late February, early March of 2020, that people are dying in the hospital despite mechanical ventilation, despite um ECMO and hemodialysis and all the modalities.
• 20:23
  I said, wait a minute.
• 20:25
  Since when does a viral illness kill somebody despite maximum support?
• 20:31
  And what the uh doctors were reporting, you said, Wait, we're seeing blood clots like we've never seen before.
• 20:37
  The dialysis lines and other uh lines, the ECMO lines are clotting off.
• 20:42
  There's something about this virus that causes blood clotting.
• 20:45
  And I thought to myself, oh my Lord, if we wait till people get in the hospital and start having blood clotting, we're cooked.
• 20:52
  And I forget I remember on one of these calls, I said, Well, okay, are we gonna form a subcommittee or how are we gonna plan to treat patients early at home, you know, treat them from our clinics or at least over the phone to help them avoid hospitalization and death.
• 21:00
  Patients early at home, you know, treat them from our clinics or at least over the phone to help them avoid hospitalization and death.
• 21:08
  And do you know?
• 21:08
  And do you know?
• 21:10
  No one said a word.
• 21:10
  No one said a word.
• 21:12
  The line went silent.
• 21:12
  The line went silent.
• 21:16
  I said, Oh my lord.
• 21:16
  I said, Oh my Lord, these are some of my respected colleagues.
• 21:17
  These are some of my respected colleagues.
• 21:20
  I thought to my nobody had a single idea.
• 21:20
  I thought to my nobody had a single idea.
• 21:24
  I said, Oh my lord.
• 21:24
  I said, Oh my Lord, when this virus hits Dallas, they're gonna let the virus slaughter their parents.
• 21:25
  When this virus hits Dallas, they're gonna let the virus slaughter their patients.
• 21:30
  They're not even gonna try to save them.
• 21:34
  That would that sounds like it would be an unusual response with a group of physicians who would try to just sort of sit back and let it happen.
• 21:41
  But it sounds like that's what happened.
• 21:44
  That's exactly what happened.
• 21:45
  You're the only one saying, wait, how can we treat them before they get here?
• 21:48
  Right.
• 21:49
  Right?
• 21:49
  And you know, there was nothing from the big organizations, the AMA, the American College of Physicians, Marion College of Family Physicians, um, none of the subspecialties societies that said, wait a minute, you know, we're gonna at least give a try of some protocol at home to help prevent hospitalization and death.
• 22:09
  Now, if people get sick at home, but they survive, that's a win.
• 22:14
  Right.
• 22:14
  But when you get hospitalized, that's when things started to go wrong.
• 22:19
  And clearly, when people went on the mechanical ventilator, you know, it was curtains.
• 22:24
  Some of the early reports were death rates, even up to 90% of the mechanical ventilator.
• 22:29
  Now it did come down, but a recent analysis, even you know, years into the pandemic from uh Johns Hopkins, they're still reporting 30% mortality for COVID-19 pneumonia on the ventilator.
• 22:42
  This is years into this.
• 22:44
  30% mortality?
• 22:46
  I mean, as a cardiologist, the most lethal heart attack we face is called an SD segment elvation myocardial infarction.
• 22:53
  That's a 2% mortality.
• 22:55
  Really?
• 22:56
  30% mortality is gonna be acceptable.
• 22:59
  And to this day, none of the hospitals have reviewed their uh report card on COVID.
• 23:07
  Which hospital had the lowest COVID mortality?
• 23:10
  Which one had the most prudent use of mechanical ventilation?
• 23:13
  What did they do differently?
• 23:14
  Yeah.
• 23:15
  All these hospitals, you go in any town in America, the hospitals want to brag that they're number one in heart disease or number one in cancer, orthopedics, right?
• 23:25
  We've all seen the billboards, right?
• 23:26
  Yeah.
• 23:27
  How come there's no billboards to say we're number one in COVID?
• 23:31
  I mean, it was the leading cause of hospitalization through 2020 and 2021.
• 23:35
  Yeah.
• 23:36
  I'm on a standing Senate committee for Arizona.
• 23:40
  And uh we've had several sessions, and the senators asked me, Dr.
• 23:44
  McCullough, what can we do better with pandemic response?
• 23:48
  And I said, Well, why don't you call in the chief medical officers and CEOs of your major health systems and review how they did with COVID?
• 23:55
  The only way to learn how to get better is to review what you did.
• 23:59
  And let's let's find out who had the lowest mortality, highest mortality ventilator use.
• 24:04
  What are the best practices?
• 24:06
  And the senators tell me, you know, Dr.
• 24:08
  McCullough, they will not show up for that meeting.
• 24:11
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• 27:49
  That's really scary when you think about because there's always this talk of the next pandemic.
• 27:55
  What's coming next?
• 27:56
  It's probably going to be another SARS-type virus, is what we're hearing.
• 27:59
  And yet, what are we doing to prepare for it?
• 28:00
  And yet, what are we doing to prepare for it?
• 28:03
  Literally, there's no retrospection.
• 28:03
  Literally, there's no retrospection.
• 28:05
  There's uh no studies to suggest, hey, this hospital had the lowest mortality rate.
• 28:05
  There's uh no studies to suggest, hey, this hospital had the lowest mortality rate.
• 28:10
  Why?
• 28:10
  Why?
• 28:11
  And let's mimic them.
• 28:11
  And let's mimic them.
• 28:12
  That you're telling us that's not happening.
• 28:12
  That you're telling us that's not happening.
• 28:14
  No.
• 28:14
  No.
• 28:15
  Six years into this, not a single state meeting.
• 28:15
  Six years into this, not a single state meeting.
• 28:20
  We've had uh Trump 1.0, Biden and Trump 2.0 administrations, not a single meeting in Washington to review.
• 28:20
  We've had uh Trump 1.0, Biden and Trump 2.0 administrations, not a single meeting in Washington to review how we did with the pandemic.
• 28:33
  Something you talk about in your book is a term called treatment nihilism, where essentially there's this idea that they're just totally ignoring and putting down this concept of early outpatient treatment for these patients.
• 28:47
  And I think you described that very well.
• 28:49
  Um even in some cases, institutions were uh limiting or forbidding the use of vitamin C like what is going on?
• 28:59
  Or vitamin D.
• 29:00
  Right.
• 29:01
  Or simple nasal sprays and gargles.
• 29:05
  So what happened with the pandemic from the very beginning was a mindset.
• 29:12
  And the mindset is it's unassailable.
• 29:16
  It's untreatable.
• 29:17
  It was presented to us this way.
• 29:19
  There wasn't a single person who got on national TV and said, you know what, doctors, we don't know how to treat this, but give it your best shot.
• 29:26
  Try to save as many lives as you can.
• 29:28
  You know, Trump didn't say that.
• 29:30
  Fauci didn't say that.
• 29:32
  Ashish ja.
• 29:35
  No, no one, no one did.
• 29:38
  Nobody in the any of the administrations looked back on this and said, you know what, I want to find out who's successful and who isn't.
• 29:47
  So everyone who went out there and gave it the good old college try.
• 29:52
  We didn't know what was going to work and what wasn't.
• 29:56
  But we actually looked for nutraceuticals, drugs of different types that had a signal of benefit, a reason why they should work, and then acceptable safety.
• 30:09
  That was the main thing.
• 30:09
  If it was safe, in my view, we should put it together and give it give it a shot.
• 30:13
  So I published the most widely used protocol in the world that became copyrighted in my name for accountability called the McCullough Protocol.
• 30:21
  And it was published in the American Journal of Medicine in August of 2020.
• 30:25
  And that was early.
• 30:27
  There it is.
• 30:28
  So there it is.
• 30:28
  McCullough Protocol.
• 30:29
  There's a copyright.
• 30:31
  And um and so this was very flexible.
• 30:34
  This said, you know, we're gonna have to risk stratify here, we'll try nasal sprays and gargles.
• 30:40
  Anybody over uh under age 50 who's healthy, we don't need uh a lot of heavy duty stuff.
• 30:46
  They're gonna be fine, just observation.
• 30:49
  Uh we definitely don't need to lock down healthy people.
• 30:52
  Now, if you're sick, staying away from other people, that's fine.
• 30:55
  Uh so I was never one, you never saw me on TV saying we should lock down.
• 30:59
  Never saw me on TV saying we should wear a mask, of course, because masks don't, you know, viruses go right through them.
• 31:04
  Um, I said, listen, we should give the best base of uh nasal uh pharyngeal hygiene but nasal sprays and gargles, get fresh air, uh neutraceuticals and vi and and and and vitamins, easy things to do.
• 31:20
  So it's all tons of positive data with vitamin D, uh less so with vitamin C, zinc, carcetin, even an over-the-counter product called Fomodidine and antihistamine um an acid worked fine.
• 31:32
  And then the the antivirals, there's a lot of points of contact tension.
• 31:35
  First, we worked with hydroxychoroquin, modestly effective, ivermectin, far more effective.
• 31:40
  But even when Paxlovid and Molna Pierre Vir came in, and um uh there there was even a drug in Asia that was used uh very early on, and we included it in our um in our protocol, uh secondary antibiotics.
• 31:55
  We found people were getting bacterial pneumonias uh that could be fatal uh if not treated.
• 32:00
  Um I think the drug that probably had the biggest effect at all though was steroids, corticosteroids.
• 32:05
  And uh to this day, uh none of the societies or governments have any outpatient protocol that uses steroids as an outpatient.
• 32:13
  It's only kind of minimal dose steroids used in the hospital.
• 32:16
  And you know, in medicine we use steroids all the time.
• 32:19
  Um and uh then there was Colchicine, uh Montalukast, everything we needed to have data for aspirin as an anticoagulant, then we got into heavy duty anticoagulants.
• 32:31
  But the concept of treating a high-risk patients on day one, I took treated patients in their 90s, people with heart failure, diabetes, and it got it was a rough illness at home.
• 32:42
  But the point is the protocol, the approach of doing something as opposed to nothing, looking back is credited with saving tens of millions of lives and sparing hundreds of millions of hospitalizations.
• 32:56
  McCullough Protocol did more for the pandemic than any other advancement or intervention.
• 33:04
  Far more than vaccines, far more than masks or lockdowns, and to this day, not a single government in the world will recognize an early outpatient treatment protocol.
• 33:17
  Wow.
• 33:18
  And uh you weren't quiet about it either.
• 33:20
  I mean, you took this to the U.S.
• 33:22
  Senate um explaining your position, and of course you were all over uh uh the news and and and pop podcasts explaining your position and getting your word out, but still the the force behind you was lacking.
• 33:35
  Why do you think that was?
• 33:36
  Yeah, well, certainly the the support was was lacking.
• 33:40
  And do you know how that um how I landed in the U.S.
• 33:44
  Senate is uh I had this protocol, I published it in the American Journal of Medicine.
• 33:48
  I was communicating, you know, who's an author on the paper, you know, Joe Ladapo, the former Surgeon General of Surgeon General of Florida, Harvey Rish was the senior author.
• 33:58
  He's on the chief medical board of the wellness company.
• 34:00
  Um I I because we are using hydroxychoric one, I even had a prominent ophthalmologist in Dallas on the group just to you know let us know we're gonna have any problems with eye safety.
• 34:11
  My former uh boss uh here in Dallas, an electrophysiologist, again, because we're using hydroxychoricon and changes in the QT interval and EKG.
• 34:19
  So it really had our you know, it was Emory, UCLA, uh major institutions on McCullough Protocol.
• 34:27
  Um the uh interesting thing is once I had done this, uh my daughter had come home to visit, and at the time uh she was in law school.
• 34:37
  And uh I said, you know, I've I've published, I think the only approach in the world to help people with this pandemic.
• 34:44
  And then she said, Well, why don't you make a YouTube video out of it?
• 34:48
  I said, I don't even like I don't even know what YouTube is, let alone make a YouTube video.
• 34:52
  I don't use any social media, it was just you know, just academic doctor.
• 34:57
  I dealt with email and and so I just made a four-slide PowerPoint showing the first page of the paper, the major figures, and I recorded myself, she showed me how to do it, she recorded myself in PowerPoint.
• 35:00
  Made a four-slide PowerPoint showing the first page of the paper, the major figures, and I recorded myself.
• 35:07
  She showed me how to do it.
• 35:08
  She recorded myself in PowerPoint.
• 35:10
  It made the teeny weeniest little video.
• 35:10
  It made the teeny weeniest little video, and I uh it got uploaded onto YouTube.
• 35:14
  And I uh it got uploaded onto YouTube.
• 35:17
  I think I had like, you know, one subscriber or one follower, and I had one file.
• 35:17
  I think I had like, you know, one subscriber or one follower, and I had one file.
• 35:23
  And it was within a day or so, struck down.
• 35:23
  And it was within a day or so, struck down, struck down for violation of community rules.
• 35:29
  Struck down.
• 35:34
  And uh I didn't even know it was struck down, and it was a weekend, and I got a call on my cell phone, drugged my cell phone and said, This is Senator Ron Johnson from the U.S.
• 35:44
  Senate.
• 35:44
  I want to talk to you.
• 35:46
  I was like, oh my lord.
• 35:48
  Wow.
• 35:49
  He goes, You can treat COVID.
• 35:50
  I said, Yeah.
• 35:51
  And I said, Here's the protocol, and I've been doing it, and we're finding our way.
• 35:54
  We're trying to help people.
• 35:56
  And uh, you know, he invited me to be the lead witness in the U.S.
• 36:00
  Senate.
• 36:01
  Ron Johnson.
• 36:01
  Ron Johnson, uh, he's a Republican from Wisconsin.
• 36:05
  November 19th, 2020.
• 36:07
  And I'll never forget, uh I went to Washington with my wife.
• 36:10
  It was a ghost town.
• 36:11
  The entire place was shut down.
• 36:13
  There was like three people in our entire hotel, a huge hotel.
• 36:17
  You couldn't even find a place to go eat at dinner, all the restaurants were shut down.
• 36:22
  And um we go into the Senate building, the Russell building is connected to Dirk Samuel.
• 36:27
  No one's there.
• 36:28
  No press, no staffers.
• 36:29
  We go into the Senate chamber, and you know, I present the case.
• 36:34
  And uh Johnson taught me a lot.
• 36:36
  He said, McCullough, listen, he said, if you got something important to say, you better say it in five minutes or less.
• 36:44
  And um, and I gave the presentation, we answered questions, and uh, you know, the one of the last questions I was asked, and we were wearing these smothering masks.
• 36:56
  We could take it off when we speak, but at the end, uh we were asked to stand, and there was one final question uh to our panel.
• 37:04
  And it was myself, uh George Farid who had treated thousands of patients in South Central uh California, former NIH researcher and wonderful man, and Harvey Rish, an epidemiologist from Yale.
• 37:17
  And the final question we had is do any of you have any concerns regarding the COVID vaccines?
• 37:24
  Now, this is November 19th, 2020.
• 37:26
  The clinical trials did not read out yet.
• 37:30
  All we heard was a press release that they were uh highly effective.
• 37:35
  Right.
• 37:36
  So none of us voiced any concerns.
• 37:38
  That's a regret.
• 37:40
  I wish at that time I would have articulated I had already published an opinion editorial in the Hill in August of 2020, titled The Great Gamble of the COVID-19 vaccine development program.
• 37:53
  I wish I would have been assertive.
• 37:56
  But I wasn't.
• 37:56
  I was trying to be respectful.
• 37:58
  We were finishing the hearing.
• 37:59
  And you know the minority witness, Ashish Jaw, who was the dean at the Brown University School of Public Health.
• 38:05
  He became the White House coronavirus coordinator under Biden.
• 38:09
  He had a pre-written op-ed in the New York Times the next day, calling me and my panel snake oil salesman of the Senate.
• 38:21
  So he the entire time intended to defame me in the New York Times the next day.
• 38:30
  And when my little video was slammed on YouTube when I was defamed by someone of reasonable academic standing.
• 38:40
  November by November 20th of 2020, I knew something very, very bad was going on.
• 38:49
  As if 2020 wasn't bad enough.
• 38:51
  Right, right, right.
• 38:52
  Um my father had been through severe COVID in Dallas, he survived, he received the McCullough protocol, but we didn't see him for months because he was locked down in uh in a uh nursing facility.
• 39:03
  Um we'd moved my parents from Alabama, my dad had a pelvic fracture in the facility, my wife's parents were uh on a rope in Toronto.
• 39:13
  I mean, 2020 was so hard, and I was doing everything I could, but when I saw that, and that I was defamed in the New York Times, snake oil salesman.
• 39:23
  It was published in the American Journal of Medicine.
• 39:25
  It was peer-reviewed.
• 39:26
  Wow.
• 39:27
  I answered the letters to the editor.
• 39:29
  You knew me.
• 39:29
  You knew me.
• 39:30
  I was, you know, a reasonable academic physician.
• 39:34
  I had you weren't on the outskirts of the physician world.
• 39:38
  No, not at all.
• 39:38
  You're not practicing, you know, crazy.
• 39:41
  I was editor of two major uh journals.
• 39:43
  I was a full professor of medicine.
• 39:45
  Uh I was studying heart and kidney interactions.
• 39:48
  I was the inaugural editor of cardiovenal medicine uh journal, uh uh, and I had my own textbook.
• 39:55
  I was a senior associate editor of the American Journal of Cardiology, one of the most respected journals in cardiology.
• 40:00
  I was uh at all the major heart meetings.
• 40:02
  I was on FDA uh advisory panels on uh kind of sub-panels.
• 40:09
  I had chaired 24 data safety monitoring boards for the FDA, for um for the NIH for Big Pharma interfaced with the FDA.
• 40:18
  I had actually already lectured on a product label expansion uh for the FDA and the Congressional Oversight Panel in 2007.
• 40:26
  I was on C-SPAN for hours, back in 07, lectured at the New York Academy of Sciences and uh all across Europe.
• 40:33
  In fact, ironically, in 2019, I was the uh named endowed visiting professor at Harvard in two divisions.
• 40:40
  I lectured in cardiology and nephrology.
• 40:43
  So I was good enough to lecture at Harvard.
• 40:46
  They invited me and my wife, and we had all these celebratory dinners, and I delivered uh lectures, you know, uh, right on point.
• 40:54
  And now in 2020, I'm a snake oil salesman in the New York Times.
• 41:00
  Astounding.
• 41:01
  And that was just kind of the opening salvo.
• 41:04
  This this has been in many ways a war for six years.
• 41:09
  Oh, of course.
• 41:10
  Absolutely.
• 41:11
  I mean, that's why we're putting you in this position of of admiration, because you saw something.
• 41:16
  I mean, you were you were every decision you made up to that point put you in the right place at the right time.
• 41:21
  And to see what happened to you really, I think exposed the system that we're up against, and it doesn't play fair, not by any stretch.
• 41:30
  And I'm I'm curious to know, you know, you mentioned you were um FDA advisory panels.
• 41:36
  Tell us a little bit about the FDA because I think that even during 2020, they gave a warning, I think, about hydroxychloroquine, but the uh morning was based on the use in hospitalized patients when the argument was to use it in early outpatient treatment.
• 41:51
  So the FDA is not a purely scientific organization.
• 41:54
  Is that true statement?
• 41:56
  I had tremendous respect for the FDA for its uh FDA to be an FDA uh chairman, uh commissioner was just an incredibly prestigious post, and there was a whole series of these.
• 42:00
  To be an FTA chairman, uh commissioner was just an incredibly prestigious post, and there was a whole series of these.
• 42:08
  We uh greatly respected them.
• 42:08
  We greatly respected them.
• 42:10
  Uh and in 2020, it was Stephen Hahn, and he's a hematologist oncologist.
• 42:10
  Uh and in 2020, it was Stephen Hahn, and he's a hematologist oncologist.
• 42:16
  But in 2020, we saw all kinds of very, very unusual things.
• 42:16
  But in 2020, we saw all kinds of very, very unusual things.
• 42:21
  So let's take hydroxyquoracon.
• 42:21
  So let's take hydroxychoroquine.
• 42:23
  So hydroxyquaracquin is an FDA approved generic drug.
• 42:23
  So hydroxychoroquin is an FDA-approved generic drug.
• 42:28
  It's labeled
• 42:28
  It's labeled indications are for um rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus, and malaria prevention.
• 42:35
  But its off label uses are numerous.
• 42:38
  You know, other different types of inflammatory conditions, et cetera.
• 42:43
  Um safety profile, extremely well known.
• 42:47
  In fact, it's it was it's been used in pregnancy and found to be safe.
• 42:50
  Very few drugs have a randomized pregnant women.
• 42:53
  Right, right.
• 42:54
  Um it's uh cardiac safety, exhaustively studied.
• 42:58
  We understand it.
• 42:59
  Probably the most serious of side effect with hydroxychoroquin is a form of a hemolytic anemia that occurs in uh glucose uh six uh uh uh pyropyroid uh dehydrogenase deficiency, G6PD.
• 43:14
  That's the most serious thing that can happen.
• 43:16
  Um and so it it was one of these drugs we understood well.
• 43:20
  There was some uh preliminary data with SARS-1 that looked like it was efficacious and was available to us.
• 43:27
  And uh the FDA, in the most bizarre move ever.
• 43:35
  It places an emergency use authorization on hydroxychoroquine.
• 43:40
  So, wait a minute.
• 43:42
  It's already approved.
• 43:43
  It's already on the market.
• 43:44
  It doesn't, it doesn't need to be additionally authorized for anything.
• 43:48
  The emergency use authorization mechanism has been used for about a dozen or so products before the pandemic.
• 43:54
  It's only for something that's experimental, not fully tested to be used in the setting of an urgent situation and largely just used for military applications.
• 44:03
  So it was used for the anthrax vaccine as an example, but not for an existing product that we can use.
• 44:08
  Doctors, we use drugs off their advertising label all the time.
• 44:11
  The FDA agrees that it's appropriate.
• 44:14
  There were it came down to some uh I I was at several meetings at the FDA and we had these discussions in 2018.
• 44:21
  There was guidance written to say, yeah, listen, the advertising label that a drug company lobbies for has nothing to do with what the doctors choose to use a drug for.
• 44:30
  We use the drug when we find it to be appropriate.
• 44:33
  In fact, in cardiology, there are drugs that are not labeled for conditions that is actually in the guidelines to use it in that condition.
• 44:41
  Same thing in pain management.
• 44:42
  Okay, yeah, same thing, right?
• 44:43
  So the labels is irrelevant in terms of indications.
• 44:47
  However, the agreement is we should all care about safety.
• 44:50
  Absolutely.
• 44:51
  So the safety is the same.
• 44:53
  So it puts an emergency use authorization on hydroxychoroquine.
• 44:57
  That's distinctly uh unusual.
• 44:59
  Uh so I guess what does that mean?
• 45:02
  We're we're using it uh anyway.
• 45:04
  And it was used in the hospital, a very large study by Henry Ford hospital, over a thousand patients, those placed on hydroxychoroquin, survived better, published in a peer-reviewed journal, and then uh and then it was just a series of fraudulent papers published.
• 45:21
  There was one from the Mayo Clinic that I brought up in the Senate hearing where they showed hydroxychoroquin causing scars in the heart.
• 45:28
  Doesn't cause scars in the heart, it's just completely fraudulent paper.
• 45:32
  Uh paper saying, well, it increases mortality.
• 45:34
  It turns out the entire database use was fake.
• 45:38
  And that was uh retracted from Lancet.
• 45:40
  And so by the summer of 2020, the FDA comes out and says we're pulling the emergency use authorization that it didn't need, and they put out a statement do not use hydroxychoroquine to treat COVID.
• 45:53
  Well, wait a minute.
• 45:54
  We're using it as an outpatient, it seems to be working fine.
• 45:57
  Uh the supportive data, and the one bigger inpatient study, it clearly worked.
• 46:02
  Uh there was uh a doctor in uh France, uh Didier Raoul, who was the first to publish the uh the data that Trump and and uh Fauci looked at and had the press release, and he went on to demonstrate lots of efficacy in large studies in France.
• 46:19
  So uh that was going on scientifically, but what I realized, what was going on politically was mind-blowing.
• 46:29
  So a billionaire in Australia, Clive Palmer, is tracking all of this.
• 46:35
  He buys enough hydroxychoroquin to treat everyone in Australia.
• 46:39
  The population in Australia is about as big as Texas.
• 46:43
  And he's got this stockpile.
• 46:45
  He procures it.
• 46:47
  The Australian authorities seize the hydroxychoroquin and they destroy it.
• 46:54
  They destroy it.
• 46:55
  That is unusual.
• 46:56
  So that why would you destroy a perfectly good drug stockpile?
• 47:01
  We can use it for other things.
• 47:04
  So something was going on in 2020.
• 47:07
  This is all in the first half of 2020, that was giving us strong signals that wait a minute, there's some force out there.
• 47:15
  They don't want anyone to be treated for this illness in any setting.
• 47:21
  And there's so many layers to that as well.
• 47:24
  I mean, from the federal government to the state and and the physicians all the way down to the patients.
• 47:28
  I mean, I would imagine being a patient in that time would be so confusing and and and terrifying.
• 47:34
  Who do you believe?
• 47:35
  What's propaganda?
• 47:36
  What's true?
• 47:36
  And the overwhelming, you know, voices like, well, hey, we'll give you a free cheeseburger if you take the shot.
• 47:42
  Oh, can you imagine that?
• 47:44
  Well, even before they came out, I'll never forget in 2020.
• 47:48
  The uh while they got going with McCullough protocol, and we had successes with hydroxychoroquin.
• 47:53
  I again, I think the steroids it worked the most.
• 47:56
  And I didn't use steroids, I think, until about May or so.
• 47:59
  My dad had it in um April, and he didn't get any steroids, and he really uh languished for a very, very long severe illness for him.
• 48:07
  Um but once we started using steroids as an outpatient, I think that made a huge difference.
• 48:10
  And I didn't mess around with uh deximethasone or oral decadrone.
• 48:15
  We don't generally use that in the outpatient realm.
• 48:16
  We just use prednisone.
• 48:18
  Yeah.
• 48:18
  So once you start using prednisone, that was a game changer.
• 48:21
  Um, but when we got to BAM OlivaMab, which was November of 2020.
• 48:28
  This was an FDA emergency use authorized, high-tech monoclonal antibody that binds the spike protein of the virus.
• 48:38
  It's like, wow, there should be no issues here, right?
• 48:43
  This is made it through.
• 48:45
  The government did the studies.
• 48:47
  It reduced, you know, the risks of um hospitalization and death.
• 48:53
  Every study showed it.
• 48:55
  There was a paper in uh medical economics saying the government bought enough monoclonal antibodies to treat every patient in America.
• 49:00
  To treat every patient in America.
• 49:03
  I said, we got it.
• 49:03
  I said, we got it.
• 49:04
  Wow.
• 49:04
  Wow.
• 49:05
  Every nursing home should be stocked with monoclonal antibodies.
• 49:05
  Every nursing home should be stocked with monoclonal antibodies.
• 49:08
  Every hospital ER.
• 49:08
  Every hospital ER.
• 49:09
  Everybody going to the ER should get a monoclonal antibody.
• 49:09
  Everybody going to the ER should get a monoclonal antibody.
• 49:12
  Everyone going to urgent care.
• 49:12
  Everyone going to urgent care.
• 49:13
  What happened?
• 49:13
  What happened?
• 49:14
  None of that.
• 49:14
  None of that.
• 49:15
  There was no supply of monoclonal antibodies.
• 49:15
  There was no supply of monoclonal antibodies.
• 49:19
  I don't know where they were, but no one was getting them.
• 49:19
  I don't know where they were, but no one was getting them.
• 49:23
  And sadly, my patients, we go on a scramble here in Dallas.
• 49:23
  And sadly, my patients, we go on a scramble here in Dallas.
• 49:26
  My patients who got the monoclonal antibodies, even the sickest patients, they survived.
• 49:26
  My patients who got the monoclonal antibodies, even the sickest patients, they survived.
• 49:31
  So your your perspective might be that they found a real good, safe and effective treatment that was then squashed once they realized it was real good, safe and effective.
• 49:39
  Yeah.
• 49:39
  You couldn't find it.
• 49:41
  There was great confusion.
• 49:43
  I'll never forget Joe Ledapo by that time became the Surgeon General in Florida, him and Ron DeSantis just were trying to set up infusion centers.
• 49:50
  They couldn't get a supply of these.
• 49:58
  After sometimes just a few weeks.
• 50:04
  Wait a minute.
• 50:05
  If the virus is mutating, why would a vaccine work, but not a monoclonal antibody?
• 50:10
  So there was this double standard going on.
• 50:13
  And when I saw that going on with monoclonal antibodies, I said to myself, wait a minute.
• 50:21
  It doesn't matter if it's cheap, low-tech, simple, available, or if it's high-tech, hard to get.
• 50:30
  All forms of treatment are going to be squashed.
• 50:34
  All forms.
• 50:35
  And it wasn't even just, you know, at the top levels.
• 50:38
  I remember trying to prescribe ivermectin for a patient with COVID.
• 50:42
  And the pharmacist was like, oh no, we don't fill that for that indication.
• 50:45
  I was like, well, there's actually good evidence to support its safety and efficacy.
• 50:49
  And they're like, no, I mean, you're just trying to give them bleach.
• 50:52
  They might as well just drink bleach.
• 50:53
  We're not going to do that.
• 50:55
  I'm sorry.
• 50:55
  I I didn't know you were the doctor.
• 50:58
  That was my first, like, oh, I guess I don't have full prescriptive authority over my patient.
• 51:03
  You know.
• 51:04
  Yeah.
• 51:04
  D do you know early in 2020, I was prescribing hydroxychoracin for a patient.
• 51:12
  And I got the same type of phone call from a pharmacy, typically like a CVS or Walgreens.
• 51:17
  Yes.
• 51:18
  And, you know, a big chain pharmacy.
• 51:21
  And they said, um, uh, what are you prescribing this for?
• 51:25
  I said, the patient's sick with COVID.
• 51:27
  They said, do you know that the guidelines say not to use hydroxychoracin?
• 51:34
  There were no outpatient guidelines at the time.
• 51:36
  And he kept going on and on and on.
• 51:38
  And I thought to myself, does this guy read the guidelines for every condition that a medicine is prescribed for?
• 51:45
  I said, listen, thanks for your review.
• 51:47
  Fill the prescription.
• 51:49
  It's my order.
• 51:50
  Right.
• 51:51
  And you know, he had to knuckle under and fill the prescription.
• 51:54
  But within a few months, they actually refused to prescribe the drugs.
• 51:58
  So that's another thing that we saw.
• 52:00
  Since when do pharmacists take it upon themselves to refuse to fill a lawful prescription.
• 52:10
  And because pharmacists refused to fill those prescriptions, some patients were hospitalized and somewhere died.
• 52:17
  Died.
• 52:18
  And it was on them.
• 52:20
  Right.
• 52:20
  It was on them that the patients.
• 52:23
  So something came into the minds of pharmacists.
• 52:27
  And it was clearly hydroxychoroquin.
• 52:29
  It was ivermectin.
• 52:31
  Definitely.
• 52:31
  They refused to fill prednisone in some cases.
• 52:34
  Oh wow.
• 52:34
  They refused to fill colchicine.
• 52:36
  They refused to fill anything if it was for acute SARS-CoV-2 infection.
• 52:42
  I've heard of uh pain physicians not getting their prescriptions filled at the pharmacy for opioids because they're controlled substances.
• 52:50
  The pharmacy does carry some liability in that regard.
• 52:53
  And if they don't have a certain confidence in that physician, they don't want to be wrapped up in that.
• 52:58
  So they just decide.
• 53:00
  But what the drugs you're referring to have been long around, uh, commonly used, commonly used for off-label uses, which is what we're doing here.
• 53:09
  And so there's really no reason not to fill this medication except perhaps some higher up order that may have been given.
• 53:18
  I don't know.
• 53:19
  That's me.
• 53:20
  You know, if there was a memo hypothesized.
• 53:22
  If there was a memo saying don't fill prednisone.
• 53:25
  Because it seems so coordinated.
• 53:27
  That's what blows me away.
• 53:28
  What's mind-boggling to me is not only is it coordinated, was it uniform?
• 53:36
  But I think it occurred without even any memos or emails.
• 53:41
  It was also worldwide.
• 53:44
  It was worldwide.
• 53:47
  Yeah.
• 53:48
  So how do you do that?
• 53:49
  How do you coordinate the minds of people worldwide to all do the same thing?
• 53:59
  It's it's stunning.
• 54:01
  So in 2020, not only was this huge Australian stockpile destroyed.
• 54:06
  I was getting reports from doctors in Africa.
• 54:10
  I did some things on Clubhouse, which health care is pretty, you know, limited.
• 54:21
  I said, Dr.
• 54:22
  McCullough, there's some type of bad guys coming in and they're burning the hydroxychoracon in the pharmacies.
• 54:28
  They're burning it.
• 54:30
  I said, really?
• 54:32
  I said, who are these guys?
• 54:33
  They go, we don't know, but you know, they're they're white, caucasian, they look like paramilitary guys.
• 54:41
  And do you know the second largest factory that makes hydroxicoracin in Asia?
• 54:46
  Burned down mysteriously.
• 54:48
  Didn't hear that.
• 54:49
  Yeah.
• 54:50
  This is just stunning.
• 54:51
  So that happened in 2020, but we quickly figured out that ivermectin, an antiparasitic drug was far more effective.
• 55:00
  Right.
• 55:00
  And uh it worked rapidly.
• 55:02
  Trying to figure out the dose took some time.
• 55:04
  But by the second version of McCullough protocol, December of 2020, we had ivermectin in there.
• 55:10
  That was the big winner.
• 55:12
  And uh one of the early treatment experts, in fact, I set him up to follow me in the U.S.
• 55:17
  Senate, uh, Pierre Corey on the next deliberations.
• 55:21
  He wrote a book that I think is one of the most aptly named book.
• 55:26
  It was is called The War on Ivermectin.
• 55:29
  And in 2021, there was an all-out war on ivermectin.
• 55:34
  And that's when the FDA started a false advertising campaign against ivermectin.
• 55:41
  And they put on social media that it's just horse paste.
• 55:44
  Right.
• 55:44
  That it was the FDA.
• 55:45
  It doesn't work.
• 55:47
  There was uh a CNN release where Joe Rogan said he took ivermectin and they put a green filter over it to make Joe look green.
• 55:55
  Um there were fake news reports that people were developing liver toxicity for ivermectin, which wasn't occurring.
• 56:00
  Which wasn't occurring.
• 56:01
  And this went on and on and on.
• 56:01
  And this went on and on and on.
• 56:05
  And uh it was a complete war.
• 56:05
  And uh it was a complete war.
• 56:07
  And so what happened in the aftermath, uh, Mary Taylor Bowden, a doctor in Houston, Robert Aptor, a doctor in Arizona, ER doctor, and um and uh Paul Merrick, one of the most uh renowned critical care doctors in the world, they sued the FDA.
• 56:07
  And so what happened in the aftermath, uh, Mary Taylor Bowden, a doctor in Houston, Robert Aptor, a doctor in Arizona, ER doctor, and um and uh Paul Merrick, one of the most uh renowned critical care doctors in the world, they sued the FDA.
• 56:25
  They sued the FDA for making false statements regarding ivermectin and dissuading people.
• 56:25
  They sued the FDA for making false statements regarding ivermectin and dissuading people from using this very effective drug.
• 56:31
  And you know that the lawyers for the FDA, they backed down and they said, you know what, um, you're right, we'll we'll remove all of our false information.