Latest / Motherhood Uncut / An Interview with Kate on Her Book, Reinventing Supermom | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 3

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An Interview with Kate on Her Book, Reinventing Supermom | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 3 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: We are so glad you're here.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We've got it here for you.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: We bring to you our own personal experience as moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Bring your friends.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: We've got you.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Come mother with us.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: In this next episode, I had the opportunity to interview Kate, my wonderful co-host.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: We get to do a deep dive into her new book that she wrote, which is wonderful, and learn a little bit about her history and her journey to get her to this path in her career.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a wonderful interview.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: I actually learned so much about my friend, and I hope you'll enjoy it too.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, it's Kate.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, every day or every other day, I am on Instagram posting little clips, little ideas, little strategies for your everyday maternal mental well-being.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: I used to actually really dislike social media and Instagram.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: And of course, as you know from our podcast, I still think that we need to be real careful with social media and our kids.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: That said, I am finding that the connections I'm making on Instagram through this feed where I am really offering moms out there a way to connect deeply with themselves, with their kids, and with their mental well-being to be really an amazing journey for me.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: So check it out.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm sharing a bit about my mothering there, as well as really important things to think about when you're working towards that sustainable mental well-being at Kate Kripke.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you there.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Hey there, this is Dev.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited to announce a new workshop that I'm offering on February 8th, and this is for dads of daughters and those who identify as dad and those who identify as daughter.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: This will be hosted at Boulder Country Day School from 6 to 8 p.m.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'm also offering a virtual link if you're out of town.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to support the dads in our community.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: This is a need that has been asked for for a very long time.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: And raising daughters in their adolescent years is not easy.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: It's not easy for any of us, but it can feel particularly challenging for dads who most likely have never been an adolescent girl before.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: So check out my website at debruben.com or motherdaughterjourney.co.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Sign up for my newsletter, stay in the know, and I look forward to hearing from you.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: We are so grateful to the one clock for sponsoring this podcast, O-N-E-C-L-O-C-K.co Wake Up Better.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: You know that thing as a mom where you wake up just jarred, your nervous system just goes into high alert like first thing in the morning?
3:03
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3:14
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3:23
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3:24
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3:27
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3:29
SPEAKER_01: You need this clock, moms.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Hi Deb.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Kate.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Happy podcast day.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: I love podcast day.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: I love it too, because I get to be with you.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Ah, it's so nice to be with you.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: I actually will say, every time we sit down, and you know, our listeners know that you and I spent a lot of time together outside of this podcast.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: But every time I sit down with you in this podcast setting, because some people are just listening and not seeing us, but we're like sitting together in this setting, I'm like, oh, life is okay.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Best feeling.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: It really is the best feeling.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: I instantly relax.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this season we're doing interviews.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: We're like stepping into the interview world.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: We're like, enough of us.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: We want to hear about other people.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: And with that, actually, today I have this amazing opportunity to interview you.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: So, so much for the forget about us.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Let's keep it on us.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, I actually I feel so incredibly excited to interview you for a handful of reasons.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: One is as your friend and colleague, I am so proud of you.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Like truly with from like the bottom of my core.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Because for so many reasons, but you wrote a book.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I wrote a book, Deb.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And like that is just a huge thing for so many reasons.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: For putting yourself out there, the time, energy that it put that you have to put into it, the vulnerability, like I mean, really the vulnerability and the expertise.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: It's just like major.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I want to give you a chance to talk about this book.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm honored.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: I do want to say something really interesting about this book because it's so funny to watch myself.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: On the one hand, I want to be like, I want to receive, you know, you know, I've been practicing receiving, right?
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And I want to receive the love and the adoration and the admiration because I feel that for myself around this book, and so I want to receive it for others.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: And I also want to be like, let's be clear, I didn't sit down and write a 250-page book from start to finish, right?
5:34
SPEAKER_01: What did you do?
5:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, this book, this book, this book is a compilation of writing on maternal mental health that I've been doing for the last 15 years or so, right?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: 15, 20 years.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's like a pulling together of the writing I've done.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I sat down with an editor and helped me kind of put it into a format that would really flow in book form.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: But this is my work over the course of my work.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's, I want to say that in the start of this interview because I think it can be really intimidating for us to think about, for our listeners to think about, you know, how the heck do you do that?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And most of what we do in life is cumulative.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: We don't sit down and start fresh, right?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: We build on itself.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And that is what this book is.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like a building upon the work that I've done, both in my own mind and my writing, some of my own kind of coming of age as a mom, and the work I've done with all the incredible clients I've had over the year, which is really who this book is dedicated to, or all those clients, because I learn more about maternal mental health through the people who I work with.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: So that's what that's that's that's what this book is.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: And it it is, it's an offering to the people.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: It's an offering to the people.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we talk a lot about being a working mom and what that's about and choosing a place where you have passion and purpose, whether it's a paid job or not.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: And I guess I'm really curious if you would share with our listeners around how you got here, how this became your passion project.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: It is a wonderfully long and windy story, and I'll see if I can cut it down to just a few minutes.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: So when I really reflect on my life, like from high school on, I have always been drawn to people.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: So, like, I went to a boarding school for high school.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in New York City, I went to a boarding school for high school, and I was like a dorm monitor and a peer counselor.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: I would have not liked you.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, the funny thing is that I think I just got really good at keeping people's secrets from all the adults in the dorm.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I never knew that you were the dorm.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: You said you were like the RA?
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: I never knew that.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I and a peer counselor before I went to college, before I went to grad school.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: And then um, you know that after college, I went and worked, oh no, in college.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: So then I went to Vanderbilt University for two years and I was I majored in human development.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And then when I transferred to University of Colorado at Boulder, I majored in sociology, right?
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Now, don't get me wrong, I did not major in sociology because I was like, I want to work with people.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: I majored in sociology because that was the easiest major, right?
8:28
SPEAKER_01: But everything in my life has been kind of drawn me to people and systems, right?
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Um after college, as you know, I went and lived in South Africa for a number of years.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I was really found profound about that work is that we were working with a post post-apartheid youth in South Africa, teaching them life skills through the wilderness, which is what outward bound does.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: I instructed for outward bound.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: And what I found was that these kids would go back to their communities and fall right back in to all the chaos.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's really where I developed my interest in systems, right?
9:06
SPEAKER_01: Is like we can know what's good and right for us internally and feel good when we're in that cozy, yummy support network.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: But when we're back in life, if the systems around us aren't supportive of our of our best highest self, we're pretty quickly and easily gonna fall back into old habits and patterns, right?
9:31
SPEAKER_01: We don't live in a vacuum.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: We don't live in a vacuum.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, this is a little plug to say you and I talk so much in this podcast about personal responsibility and taking control of our own mental health.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: And there are some screwed up systems out there that we can't deny, absolutely.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I went back to get my degree in social work because I was like, I really want to understand how to support people within systems.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: I graduated, I got a job in the mission district in San Francisco, uh, running a developing a counseling program and an after-school program for teens.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: And these teens in the mission district were really struggling teens, right?
10:08
SPEAKER_01: They were lots of kids of color.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of poverty and lack of resources.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: There was a fair amount of truancy happening for these kids, a fair amount of delinquent, you know, they were in and out of support for juvenile delinquency.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: There was like a lot of struggle happening for these kids.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I was like, you know, hired design this counseling program to give them the support that they needed.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Those kids did not want to be in my office.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: No.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: And let me back up and say at that time I was like, I am gonna be the the adolescent therapist.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: You know how I always go big, Dad.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you do.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: I always go big.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Those kids didn't want nothing to do with me, but their moms were lined up at my door.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: So I that was my first insight into this thing that you and I both know in our own lives now, and certainly in the work that we both do, that when mothers get the support that they need, their kids do better.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Full stop.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: You know?
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, this is what we do.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: This is what we do.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And so at that time, I got I became pregnant with my first daughter, Kinley, who turns 16 next week, which is crazy pants.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: And um struggled with pretty significant postpartum anxiety after she was born.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: And what was that like for you?
11:28
SPEAKER_01: That for me looked like really in it's sort of qual, it fits into that category of postpartum OCD, right?
11:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a formal diagnosis of OCD before becoming pregnant, but I have a tendency to think in, or I did, I've worked on this, but I had a tendency to think in all or nothing terms, to be really fearful of unexpected.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: I needed to be in control, I needed to know what to expect.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: And after I had Kinley, a lot of my fear came from not being perfect, not getting it right, and kind of intrusive, scary thoughts of really crazy things happening for her.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember going up to the mountains when she was seven weeks old.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: We were in California at the time, and picturing her brain exploding because of the altitude.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And being convinced it was gonna happen, right?
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And not able to understand the irrationality of that.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Things like that.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Very anxious, very obsessed with how she was eating or not eating, right?
12:39
SPEAKER_01: A lot of that stuff, which I now know, are really common symptoms of postpartum anxiety for many, many women.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Not everyone talks about it, but many of us struggle with it.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: So I think during that experience, I was like, oh, what if we got moms the support they needed when their kids were infants?
12:55
SPEAKER_01: What if instead of waiting till they were teens, like I was doing in this after-school program, what if we got them support when they were babies?
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's really where I began my study and um learning and professional development around early maternal mental health and really setting up moms and families for the biopsychosocial support that they need so that they're less likely to struggle.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's what this book is.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right?
13:23
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a book of biological, psychological, social, and also spiritual thoughts and ideas of things to consider, ways to take care of oneself, ways to reach out for help and support that will really fill any gaps that exist in a in a in a mother's biological health, psychological health, and social health.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: And I pulled it together for this book.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, thank you.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing all that.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: It's so vulnerable to share your story, and I really appreciate it.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: I also think, you know, when I was reading this book, that there it's like there's so many things that are obviously designed for the new mother, but it is so applicable to any stage of parenting.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Because what I think I hear you saying, I love that you really focus on systems approach, and I know you're a linear thinker in many ways, and this is what has really served you, and I think it serves so many people because we need tasks, we kind of need like let's let's work with where you have control, let's identify the places you don't have control, and let's be proactive in our lives, right?
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And then you're also talking about and how do we create an environment to thrive?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: And those I think are the themes that can be used at any stage of parenting.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, you also speak about something that in your personal story where you are having catastrophic thinking.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think as moms, it is our job to worry.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: We but we innately worry.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: And you know, we've talked on this podcast before about identifying, you know, the worrying part of you rather than being the worrier always.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: And some of my favorite work is to really get to learn about the worrier within me.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what you were saying, you know, when you were imagining Kinley's head exploding, that is going to a different level of worry.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And so I just think it's so profound to be able to recognize when it kind of moves from say quote unquote normal worry to catastrophic worry.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Can we speak to that?
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: I love that you're bringing this up because what we know, obviously, is that there is, you just said this, I'm just saying it a little bit differently.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: There is no mothering without worry.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: The worry is not the problem.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: What we do with the worry can become problematic.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: And we learn to take care of ourselves so that we can manage our nervous system in those times of worry, right?
15:57
SPEAKER_01: This book talks quite a bit about the difference between productive worry or anxiety and unproductive worry and anxiety, right?
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And productive worry and anxiety really speaks to the things that we have control over.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right?
16:12
SPEAKER_01: To really understand that if I am, you know, you you and I in our lives and in our work with mothers are very committed to this idea that our bodies are wise.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: When I feel something in my body that I am going to attribute the term anxiety to, I don't want to not pay attention to that.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Right?
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: I want to lean in and give myself permission to feel that and ask myself, what is this feeling telling me about me with respect to what I want and need to be healthy and well?
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: So it's less about what is this anxiety telling me about the situation?
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Quote unquote, something bad is gonna happen.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Right?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: But what is it telling about me?
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm not feeling safe and secure in this moment.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Right?
17:04
SPEAKER_01: What do I need to do to help myself feel more safe and secure?
17:10
SPEAKER_01: This is where we move into productive anxiety.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: I can call my pediatrician and ask my pediatrician about the reality and possibility that my daughter's brain and head might explode if we're up in the mountains.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Right?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Now, if I'm not being productive with that anxiety and it's just cycling in my brain, there's no, there's no use for that.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I can't do anything with that.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: It just gets stuck and becomes negative looping thoughts and all the things that really keep us frozen.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: I love that term productive anxiety.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: The language I often use is befriending your anxiety.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, what are what are the warning signs?
17:51
SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to tell me?
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Anxieties often has a really important purpose.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: But to your point, then if if it goes to that next level, you know, of extreme overwhelm or you know, really unproductive anxiety, as you would say, it's like then we can't, we're we are frozen.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: We can't do anything.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: I think this is where I'm reminded, and I talk about this in the book, of the reality that our bodies don't know the difference between real or perceived threat.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Our bodies, that that feeling that we call anxiety, the the turning of our belly, the tightening in our chest, the hard time breathing, the dizziness, that right, all of those things that in my body I would call anxiety, that's actually functioning.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: That is my physiology doing its job.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Because if there's a real threat, I need to frickin' deal.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right?
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think where I where what I think is important in this process is for us to re and that and that's limbic brain activity, right?
18:53
SPEAKER_01: That's reptilian brain, it just happens.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Its only job is to survive.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: It's not a frontal cortex executive functioning process.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: And so we need when I talk about productive versus unproductive, that that is productive in our body if there's a real threat.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: And so we really have to understand what it's like to really begin to shift that back brain reactive process to incorporate some executive functioning so that we can have more of a rational perspective.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: My daughter's brain was not going to explode.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: No, no, it wasn't.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: But can I tell you something funny?
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I remember taking Sage up to the mountains when she was maybe two months old, maybe younger.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: I I kind of it was kind of my first big outing.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: And I actually got yelled at by an older mom, like old, you know, way older than me, that I shouldn't have this baby out in the mountains on a cold day.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Now, granted, she had a hat, she was bundled, she was on my body.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and this was such an interesting moment for me as a mom because everything in my instincts knew that this baby was fine.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: That we live in elements.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I wanted to put my babies in elements to like, you know, I value warmth, but I wanted to them to be able to do that.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: There are babies that live in elements all over the freaking globe.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And and this is just, I don't know if where this fits, but it was this moment where someone was judging me, an older mom, and I felt myself get paranoid that I was doing something wrong, that I was like a bad mom.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: And then I actually sat with it.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: I did not go inside.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I was actually, we were watching like the X games or something on the mountain.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And I sat with myself and I remember having this whole conversation of like, I have an opportunity here to trust my instincts or to get threatened by the outside world.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And this I think is a place that moms can be really kind of um flimsy many times.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And I remember having a feeling really good about myself in that moment that I was not gonna get totally let this other person's opinion totally project all over me.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, which is so hard in early motherhood because we're getting our own mothering feet underneath us, our mama legs, and we're wobbly.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So wobbly.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Flimsy was your word, wobbly, flimsy, right?
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And so we're so easily impacted by the judgments and ideas of others.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: What do you think enabled you to do that?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: I think some of it was the situation.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: I think I was I had a system in that I had some older moms in my life and friends that were from all over parts of all over the world, actually.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: And there was a story that stuck with me that I was up there with a friend from Norway, and he told me that when he was a baby, all the parents would line their kids out in their strollers while the parents went inside to a cafe and it would be like snowing outside.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: I love this.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: These kids, I mean, my this friend from Norway and all of his siblings never get cold when we go skiing.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean they literally have this amazing temperature regulation.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: And so anyway, I had that little nugget of someone else's experience to give me some trust.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Now, granted, there was other moments where it was around food, and I didn't have like feeding my kid enough.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: What was I feeding?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: The allergies, all the things that go into that, where I was very flimsy and easily influenced and grasping for other people's opinions.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: And I lost my way on how to trust my own instincts.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And that got really tricky.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a system in place.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think a lot of what I offer in this book is support and encouragement to find your deepest sense of knowing in motherhood so that so that you, so that the reader is more resilient to those moments.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: I think it's unlikely that any new mother in that first year, or even when our kids are 16 and 13, right, are going to not be impacted by someone else's view and judgment, especially if they say it the way that woman did.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: You should.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Those words get us at our core.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: And they're the worst possible way to communicate something to someone, right?
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Like what she was really saying is, I'm worried about your baby.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And then you could have said, Oh, I'm not, right?
23:27
SPEAKER_01: But but when she when when anyone gives that like direct, hard-edged advice and it's different from us, we're gonna feel the wobble.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the things that I that I offer in this book is that when we know how, when we have the tools to fall back on our deepest knowing, we can come up from that wobble quicker.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: So it's not how do we get to a place where we're not impacted, where we don't care, where we don't wobble.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: It's how do we find ourselves again.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And that really, to me, I know you agree, involves a deep sense of willingness to get curious and be vulnerable and acknowledge our not knowing at this stage, to be willing to not know.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: You know how we can expect that the only way to feel confident is to know?
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, we can be like, well, I have to know the answer in order for me to feel good about the truth.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: For me, and what I try to teach in this book is the quickest way to build confidence is to not know first, to be willing to not know first.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Do you find that in your life?
24:38
SPEAKER_00: I do.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're also speaking to is how do we how do we work with instincts during a time, a place where we've never been here before?
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: It's like such it's so interesting because I think there are some people that come into the world and they instinctually have this strong sense of like what to do.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: But I think many people feel like they lose their instincts in this time that is that they've never been here before.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, mothering is the most profound journey for that reason because every stage we've never been here before.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: So we actually have to rely a lot of times on what we know in our body from our own experience, which is sometimes pretty murky or traumatic or has all the stories that go with that.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: It's sort of, it's sort of it's like there are these conflicts in there, right?
25:32
SPEAKER_01: Because I know that in many ways this idea of maternal instinct has been negated or questioned, right?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Because then when we become a mother and we don't right away know what to do, we feel like we don't have that maternal instinct.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: That's right, right?
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And I actually think we do, but I think it's quiet.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's subtle.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think that when we search for the answers outside of us, what does that book tell me to do?
26:04
SPEAKER_01: What does that person think I should do?
26:06
SPEAKER_01: What is that, what's that person doing with their baby?
26:08
SPEAKER_01: And I need to do it that way.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: When we search outwardly, outward, we get farther away actually from what we know to be true and best for us and our babies, right?
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm a firm believer of support.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: We are not supposed to quote unquote figure this out on our own.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: But I do think that when we can quiet the noise and learn how to really translate the signals in our bodies, and rather than project, get curious, all these tools that we you and I teach in this podcast, that I teach in this book, when we can learn how to do that, we can find our maternal instincts.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And one thing I love about your book, and it this is such a big part of how you show up in the world with all of your work, is around self-care.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And and I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way we can quiet the outside noise is by regularly, daily practices of self-care.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of the heart of what you're talking about?
27:07
SPEAKER_01: That's the heart.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think that word self-care can really turn everything off.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about that, but really it's about caring for ourselves, right?
27:16
SPEAKER_01: It's really about knowing and honoring what we as individuals know that we need to feel healthy and well.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And it my answer might be different from yours, and that's fine, right?
27:28
SPEAKER_01: But that's really what I mean when I talk about self-care.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And I guess the only other thing that I want to mention about this book that I think is really important to name is that it doesn't stop after the first year, right?
27:42
SPEAKER_01: As you said, there are people, I have had people read this book and write me these really incredible notes about how helpful this book was, even when their kids are school-aged.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: This book does not have the words postpartum depression and anxiety on the cover for a reason.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of those words are used, especially in sort of the prevention realm, or if someone is struggling, how can we help get that person out of that struggle?
28:07
SPEAKER_01: But the reason it's not on the cover is because I think those ideas are useful for all of us.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Whether we have or are struggling with postpartum depression and anxiety or not, whether we have a newborn or a new baby or not.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think the root of it is asking and answering that question what do I need to honor myself as far as my own health and wellness goes, so that I can find my own answers, so that I can answer my own questions, so that I can find that instinct and trust it, so that I can reach out for others for support when I know that I need it, so that I can mother my children, whether their babies are grown in the way that they need us to in order for them to thrive.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I love that, Kate.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: As I'm listening to you, I'm like, this book is about the transition.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And I actually very clearly remember a moment in my labor with my first kid where I looked in the mirror and I thought I was gonna die.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: And I had a recall of a midwife telling me, you will probably feel like you're gonna die.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And I want you to welcome that feeling that a part of you is dying, the maiden inside of you is dying in order for the mother to be born.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And this book I feel like sums up this invitation for the mother to be born, that without it having to be that something is wrong, but instead it's this intense transition, and with every transition comes turbulence and disorganization and reorganization.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And this book I think guides you to get reorganized with your new version of yourself.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: It's so well said.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: You should be my publicist.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: I would love to.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: One last thing I want to say about this book, please.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Is that my daughter did the cover and the back, right?
30:01
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that I find really moving about the creation and publish publishing of this book is that it really does feel energetically and metaphorically like uh a tangible example of my mothering.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh because not only did I and do I still have to practice all the things in this book, but Bridger is a part of it, right?
30:30
SPEAKER_01: That and she's 13 and she is this, as you know, because she's like your third daughter, you know.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And she as she like brings to the cover of this book her own sense of what it means to be mothered.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: I will let people know that all I did for Bridger was give her the title of the book and the ideas of what the book was about, and she created that image, that illustration all on her own, which I think is such a beautiful representation of this book and what it's about.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: So that's my plug for my baby girl, Bridger Kripke, at Bridger Kripke on Instagram, if everyone wants to follow her illustrations.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: But it really is, it's really incredible.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm just so glad that you are sharing this gift with the world.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for being you, and thank you for letting me interview.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was fun.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for interviewing me, Dev.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: Well have a great day.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: I love you.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
31:23
unknown: Bye.