Latest / Math Therapy / Why math class might be more stressful than air travel w/ Cathy Marks Krpan

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Why math class might be more stressful than air travel w/ Cathy Marks Krpan · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Cathy Marks Krpan: what's really important is to get to know each kid as best as we can, each student as best...
• 0:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: as a person, as a human being.
• 0:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Math Therapy, coming to you straight from Fort Worth, Texas, where I'm speaking at the CAMT Math Education Conference.
• 0:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: My friend Dr.
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cathy Marks Krpan and I have actually snuck into an empty conference room between sessions.
• 0:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is a very loud presentation happening next door, and I am just praying this mic does not pick it up, otherwise David is going to kill me.
• 0:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, why have we decided to record this completely impromptu episode?
• 0:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, Cathy and I have this very weird thing going on.
• 0:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: See, we're both from Toronto, but we basically never see each other there.
• 0:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: In fact, we've only ever been together in person twice, and both times have been in airports.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: The first time was in Texas after this very conference last year.
• 0:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: The second time was in the Toronto airport on our way here just a few days ago.
• 1:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: The weird part is that both times we've traveled together, something completely ridiculous has happened.
• 1:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Last year was literal chaos.
• 1:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know the, like, airport little buses, like the buggies that they drive around?
• 1:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: We convinced two guys to drive us to our gate on it, and we made it to our flight with thirty seconds to spare.
• 1:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, this year, somehow, basically the same thing.
• 1:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mechanical issue after mechanical issue, sitting on the tarmac forever, just one of those travel days where you're convinced you're never actually getting where you're supposed to go.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And both times, we've found ourselves texting each other from different rows on the plane saying,"This is exactly like math education.
• 1:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is exactly like teaching math." Which got me wondering, like, I wonder if Cathy means the same thing by that as I do.
• 1:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we thought,"Why not sneak into a conference room between sessions and find out live on the pod?" Now, if you don't already know Cathy, you are in for such a treat because Dr.
• 1:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cathy Marks-Krpan is a former classroom teacher, now a professor at OISE, which is the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto, and she teaches graduate courses in math education.
• 2:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: She works with teachers in school districts across North America and around the world, helping them create richer, more meaningful mathematical learning experiences.
• 2:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: She is the real deal, guys.
• 2:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, she is one of the coolest people I know.
• 2:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: She reminds me so much of my own high school math teacher.
• 2:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: She has, like, this spark, this energy, this passion for helping every student believe they can think mathematically.
• 2:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's thoughtful, she's funny, she's brilliant, and every conversation with her leaves me seeing things a little differently.
• 2:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're looking for a little spark this summer, a little reminder of why you fell in love with teaching in the first place, or if you've ever wondered how an airport disaster could possibly have anything to do with teaching math, this episode is for you.
• 2:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So without further ado, here is my friend, my fellow Canadian, and one of the coolest women I know, Dr.
• 2:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cathy Marks-Krpan.
• 2:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's why we're telling you about this, not just that we want you to be in awe of our reality show that we should have, but because the entire time, me- Cathy and I were like,"This is basically a metaphor for teaching math."
• 2:59
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It is.
• 2:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me what you were thinking.
• 3:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I was thinking of several layers to this.
• 3:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's go.
• 3:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: One is they get on the announcement and said,"We..." Something to do with the engine.
• 3:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was,"Wah, wah, wah, wah, engine.
• 3:13
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Wah, wah, wah, wah, 30 minutes." And I wonder how many kids sit in math class while we say something that we understand as educators, that this is clear, it's very easy, and the kids are hearing,"Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah." Mm.
• 3:30
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And so, and that can lead to a lot of different things.
• 3:33
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And then the other piece is the whole unknown, right?
• 3:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Sitting on that plane, not knowing if we're gonna be taking off or not, and that unknown piece.
• 3:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And, and sitting- And feeling a little stressed about that.
• 3:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We were a little stressed about it
• 3:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 3:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you're, you're mentally going through all the options of what can happen And, and I,
• 3:52
  Cathy Marks Krpan: and we're, and we're grown adults- Yeah that can rational- that we have at least, we can, we can reason, we can think clearly about,"Okay, these are our options." But a lot of times, kids in the classroom don't always have those kinds of thinking skillsets readily available to them.
• 4:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But-
• 4:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're just panicking in the moment
• 4:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Right, right.
• 4:11
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And, and we think, oh, you know, from my perspective or anyone else in the classroom, sometimes when we're teaching we think,"You know, I, this is pretty straightforward.
• 4:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: This is really easy." But sitting with the unknown, right?
• 4:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Sit- being comfortable with the unknown, whether you're an adult or a student in the classroom, whether it's math or anything else, that can be very stressful.
• 4:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, you're talking about the student perspective-
• 4:34
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Correct
• 4:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: right?
• 4:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So let's go back to the whomp, whomp, whomp engine,'cause you were texting me being like,"We, they are not asking us what we're thinking." That's it.
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're not, right?
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So tell me more about that moment of like, so a kid is sitting in class, let's say, and they're just hearing you blabber some stuff and blah, like,"Whomp, whomp, whomp fractions.
• 4:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whomp, whomp, whomp a quarter." What would you prefer?
• 4:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, let's imagine now go back to us on the plane.
• 4:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: What should have happened there that would've helped us?
• 4:59
  Cathy Marks Krpan: First, first of all, I think there should've been,"Does anyone have any questions?" And I know people don't do that.
• 5:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's such a good idea.
• 5:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They don't do that on airlines'cause they don't want our questions.
• 5:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: But teachers, they think all the-
• 5:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Because we would have damn fine questions to ask.
• 5:11
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, do I get a reimbursement?
• 5:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like- Or like, tell us exactly what's wrong with the engine And
• 5:17
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I was thinking, rightly so, there's gonna be a high demand on the food and, but by the time it came to my seat, there was hardly anything left, which is a whole other thing.
• 5:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But yes-
• 5:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: That has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but I love that you needed to get that out there.
• 5:29
  Cathy Marks Krpan: No, it was important.
• 5:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Air Canada, I hope you're listening.
• 5:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 5:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They always listen to me.
• 5:33
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's always that way.
• 5:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so what, what if they had asked, okay, tell me if they-
• 5:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So what are you thinking?
• 5:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: How are you feeling?
• 5:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, is there anything...
• 5:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Uh, they did come with water, which was nice, but just, there's never any, there's not enough information to calm me down on an airplane, and I just think in teaching that parallels very nicely because I'm sure there are kids, even though we are very explicit sometimes in, in what we do and we ask,"Are there any questions?" A lot of kids aren't gonna ask the questions'cause they feel that they're gonna be singled out and they don't wanna do that.
• 6:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But even just having them write something down and just say,"What are you thinking at this moment?
• 6:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Write it down.
• 6:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Give them cue cards out.
• 6:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Let me see what's, what's going on."
• 6:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, this is also making me think of like they're giving us on the plane like just kind of a surface level explanation.
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's- Right?
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like, they kept saying, like after the engine thing, they kept saying technical difficulties.
• 6:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: We didn't know what technical- Yes like is the air conditioner broken?
• 6:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it the like lighting?
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it the actual-
• 6:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Is the wing falling off the plane?
• 6:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, we don't know.
• 6:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We don't know.
• 6:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I am not the, I mean, I am c- I'm a calm flyer pretty much, but, but- When these things start happening, things start racing through my brain.
• 6:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Right.
• 6:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I start thinking about what if this happens?
• 6:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: What if this happens?
• 6:48
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I'm just thinking about kids in the classroom with math.
• 6:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, oh my gosh, what if I have to share?
• 6:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: What if I have to do this and I don't know what's gonna happen next?
• 6:56
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Sometimes that can- Hmm.
• 6:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I think we don't take that into consideration enough.
• 7:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I think because we, the person g- doing the wah, wah, wah engine, wah, wah, wah, wing falling off- they have an insight of what is happening- Yeah and it's calm for them.
• 7:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I'm, you know what this reminds me of?
• 7:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: To me, okay, sorry, this is gonna be such a, a niche topic for the high school teachers.
• 7:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I fucking hate how we teach SOHCAHTOA before we actually teach the sine, cos, and tan function.
• 7:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So kids are just like, they're like,"What?" And you're like,"Don't worry, just type in sine 60.
• 7:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just press the sine button on your calculator." Yeah, everything's gonna be great.
• 7:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: "It's all gonna be fine." They don't know that sine is actually a function.
• 7:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's a gr- like they have no clue and we're just like,"Wah, wah, wah SOHCAHTOA.
• 7:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wah, wah, wah- Yeah sine, cos, tan." And I think we d- so first of all, I'm using that, that because that example really pisses me off, but we do it with a lot of things.
• 7:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Keep, change, flip.
• 7:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just flip, right?
• 7:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 7:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just flip and multiply when you're dinin- dividing the fractions, it's gonna work.
• 7:56
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Don't ask why.
• 7:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Don't ask why, right?
• 7:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't wanna hear your questions.
• 7:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's a sip of water, end of story.
• 8:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't even do that part.
• 8:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But do you know what I mean?
• 8:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know.
• 8:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's-
• 8:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like keep s- keep in your seat and put your seatbelt on.
• 8:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true.
• 8:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, and-
• 8:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, why are we doing this?
• 8:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so we're thinking like kids are often thinking to themselves, number one, why?
• 8:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I also like what you said of what's going to happen next.
• 8:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what am I...
• 8:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'd like to know what I'm going to have to do next.
• 8:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do I have to produce an answer?
• 8:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do I have to share it with the class?
• 8:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 8:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I think there's a lot of classroom practices- Yeah that kids are scared are going to happen.
• 8:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, and I, I think we underestimate that sometimes.
• 8:27
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like I just think, again, we're adults in a plane, right?
• 8:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We, we sort of have a, a, a broader view of what's happening and what could happen, and yet we still get anxious about it.
• 8:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Right?
• 8:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I think that just made me think like about kids and learning, and we thought the plane is the classroom, right?
• 8:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We're, we're the students.
• 8:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're the students.
• 8:49
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And-
• 8:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: The people in charge are just all like-
• 8:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And the pilot could be like the director of education, and then the-
• 8:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh,
• 8:55
  Cathy Marks Krpan: wow the s- the, the, the flight attendants, the teachers perhaps.
• 8:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like the teacher's assistants maybe.
• 9:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Maybe.
• 9:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So who's the teacher then?
• 9:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, they're also the teachers.
• 9:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Okay.
• 9:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We're
• 9:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: not sure.
• 9:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not sure.
• 9:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're the teachers.
• 9:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I mean, I think, because the, the people giving us the information are the teachers, it kind of feels like the pilot You're right.
• 9:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I like that.
• 9:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're the leader, and then the teachers are just doing the, the, um, the flight attendants are doing as they're told.
• 9:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 9:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Right?
• 9:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I was so curious.
• 9:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, you could see It was really fascinating because the, um, cab- the cabin, the captain's cabin, was open.
• 9:27
  Cathy Marks Krpan: The cockpit?
• 9:27
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Cockpit, yeah.
• 9:27
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah,
• 9:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay, okay.
• 9:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 9:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You say potato, I say potato.
• 9:30
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But yeah, I think that's a better word for it.
• 9:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I just was fascinated with the And you just wonder, like, what's going on in there?
• 9:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, what is happening?
• 9:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 9:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, there's lights flashing.
• 9:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Should we be concerned that that light is flashing from where I am?
• 9:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So can I ask you a question?
• 9:42
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You sure can.
• 9:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are, when- Are you nervous that something bad is gonna happen to the plane, or are you nervous that your plan is gonna be derailed?
• 9:49
  Cathy Marks Krpan: No, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous that I'm gonna probably, yeah, that something's gonna happen to the plane, I'm gonna die.
• 9:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That's basically it.
• 9:54
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I, I'm not-
• 9:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Really?
• 9:55
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I, I love flying.
• 9:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I'm very calm.
• 9:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I love it, but when something happens that's not normal, my mind starts racing about what that could be.
• 10:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 10:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, I remember as a kid, if I was on a plane, again, and I, I was telling my dad,"Oh my God, what's this?" I hear bump, bump, bump, bump, bump.
• 10:14
  Cathy Marks Krpan: "Oh, don't worry about it.
• 10:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's called turbulence.
• 10:16
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's like," but,"It's like going over bumps when you're in a car." And I remember as a kid thinking,"Hell to no, it's not like that." Like, we're 3,000, 30,000 feet above the earth.
• 10:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you, okay.
• 10:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this also makes me think too, like, especially looking at that childhood mind of, like, something we think is, like, a rational thing to say, like,"Oh, don't worry about it.
• 10:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It just works out.
• 10:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You just keep, change, flip, and it's going to work out." Yeah.
• 10:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: "You just do this."
• 10:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You gotta trust.
• 10:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Gotta trust.
• 10:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You gotta trust.
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kids are not feeling that vibe.
• 10:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: No.
• 10:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they are probably thinking something they can't articulate, like,"That's not good enough for me," or,"Why should I trust it?" And I think once they don't- Yeah trust something and they don't under- Because here's the other thing.
• 10:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: We keep telling everyone, we are born as natural problem-solvers.
• 10:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kids inherently love to do math before- Yeah it gets, like, scared out of them.
• 11:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: They like to solve problems.
• 11:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: They like to understand.
• 11:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: We like understanding.
• 11:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when we do that to a kid or an adult, when we just shut that down by saying,"Just don't worry.
• 11:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just believe me." Yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: "And just stay chill and do what I say," that actually, I think, kills the curiosity they innately have.
• 11:16
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, for sure.
• 11:17
  Cathy Marks Krpan: For sure.
• 11:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And we're not equipping them with skillsets and the ability to sort of navigate and sit comfortable with the unknown, which is important too- But do you- to give them skillsets
• 11:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: do you think we do that?
• 11:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you think in the plane situation they're doing that because they don't understand?
• 11:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know how sometimes teachers do that'cause they're like,"Don't ask me questions'cause I actually don't know"?
• 11:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That's possible, and it's just to keep everyone calm, like me-
• 11:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right
• 11:41
  Cathy Marks Krpan: on the plane.
• 11:41
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I just wanna say for the record, I, I don't mind flying.
• 11:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, we know.
• 11:46
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But stop it.
• 11:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: We, you've said it a few times.
• 11:49
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But I just
• 11:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, it's funny you say this,'cause I don't know you that well, and most of our interactions have been on these two flights.
• 11:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 11:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what I will say is this.
• 11:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you took the analogy in this way.
• 12:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: The way I was thinking about it is I was like, to me, it feels like something on the teacher end.
• 12:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, we are so uncomfortable with uncertainty on that plane.
• 12:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you're like,"I need to know what's gonna happen." Yeah.
• 12:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're kind of thinking the worst is gonna happen.
• 12:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: To me, it kind of reminded me of when, like, a lesson gets derailed.
• 12:16
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Right.
• 12:17
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Absolutely.
• 12:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's, it's that whole piece and the expectation that everyone's treated the same, everybody has to sit in their seats, everybody blah, blah, blah, and just don't interfere
• 12:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: but what's interesting to me is in both of these circumstances, things have worked out for the best, and we've had a great story to tell, and it's like we've gotten to where everything's fine, but you still in both situations so quickly started thinking the worst.
• 12:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Absolutely.
• 12:45
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Because, I mean, I'm just saying, I just, I like to know.
• 12:49
  Cathy Marks Krpan: The more information I have-
• 12:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes
• 12:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: the less stress I, stressed I become.
• 12:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I act-
• 12:54
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So- Yeah that's it.
• 12:55
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like-
• 12:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: If they had said,"We're having technical difficulties.
• 13:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: The air conditioning isn't working-
• 13:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, we gotta figure that out
• 13:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: and we just wanna make sure you don't have a hot flight," wouldn't you have felt so much better?
• 13:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yes, yes.
• 13:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause you're like,"Oh, it's-"
• 13:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: If you trust the person saying that.
• 13:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Is it a coverup for something bigger?
• 13:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We don't know, right?
• 13:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, so it sounds like you're a very suspicious person.
• 13:14
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Well, I'm, even as a kid, going on, um...
• 13:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We have this, this exhibition, it's called the, the Canadian National Exhibition.
• 13:22
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They have all sorts of rides.
• 13:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 13:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's an amazing place, and I still go every year.
• 13:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But I, as a kid, I would not go on any rides, and, and it was great for my parents'cause I, they, nobody would have to go on with me.
• 13:33
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And the reason was because I thought,"I'm not getting up in that contraption.
• 13:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Anything can happen, and that person there is gonna be in charge of my life." That's how I thought it at, like, 10, 11 years old, so yeah, I guess-
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is-
• 13:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: it all comes back.
• 13:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: It does all come back, but I think what you said is so-
• 13:50
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Is this a ther- is this a therapy session
• 13:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm wondering, because I'm like, now this is actually about trusting the person in the front of the room.
• 13:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Well, and trusting the person, yes.
• 13:59
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Trusting the person in the front of the room, and how do you develop that trust?
• 14:03
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's not just...
• 14:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It, it takes...
• 14:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's a journey to develop that trust.
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how do you do that with students?
• 14:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You do that with students with getting to know who they are.
• 14:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But not only getting to know who they are, but ensuring that they know that you are making the effort to get to know who they are, and that you are-
• 14:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Give me, like, two things you do, or one thing, your favorite thing.
• 14:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I would sit down.
• 14:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: the kids in my class, they were grade eight- And they had really challenging home lives, like to the point where I could not survive what some of them experienced.
• 14:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Mm.
• 14:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, I, I just...
• 14:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was amazing.
• 14:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: If...
• 14:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: When they showed up, it was a celebration in my heart At the beginning of the year and throughout the year, I would have a one-on-one interview with each student and say,"Here are some of the things that I'm observing about you, that I'm getting to know about you, that I really like.
• 14:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I just wanna tell you the things that I just really admire about you." Full stop.
• 14:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That was it, every time.
• 15:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And it made a difference.
• 15:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, some of the kids came up to me and said,"It's the first time anyone has ever told me anything-
• 15:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God
• 15:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: that they like about me.
• 15:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's the first time." N- n- not just even teachers, but anybody.
• 15:11
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And so just-
• 15:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: How old are these kids?
• 15:13
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Uh, grade eight, so-
• 15:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like middle school, like-
• 15:16
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah middle school.
• 15:16
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Middle school, yeah.
• 15:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And it made a difference.
• 15:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But it wasn't just...
• 15:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was for me to get to know them-
• 15:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm
• 15:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: and to understand them as much as possible and to create a relationship, because nothing was gonna happen in that classroom without a relationship of some sort.
• 15:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um-
• 15:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what I'm hearing you say, which is really interesting, is often, I think, when we think about getting to know our kids, I'm not saying this is wrong, but we think,"Oh, we need to know, like, what their hobbies are and what TV shows they watch." But I think that's one way of getting to know them, but what I'm hearing you say is simply observing and being able to point out what you understand about their character.
• 15:52
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 15:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like things- Yeah that they might not see in themselves.
• 15:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like,"You're a really funny person- Yes or you're..." You know what I mean?
• 15:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like-
• 15:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yes.
• 15:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: All of that.
• 15:59
  Cathy Marks Krpan: See- And, and, and, and, and it's gonna be different for each kid.
• 16:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 16:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And that I'm not just saying,"Oh, everybody's so great.
• 16:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I really love you.
• 16:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I love the way you're engaging.
• 16:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I love all this stuff." No.
• 16:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, hold on.
• 16:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, tell me what's wrong with that or what you don't love about that approach.
• 16:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I feel it's superficial.
• 16:13
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Too general.
• 16:13
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I feel it's the wah, wah, wah, wah.
• 16:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I think what's really important is to get to know each kid as best as we can, each student as best...
• 16:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: as a person, as a human being.
• 16:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So talk to the-
• 16:25
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And that takes work.
• 16:25
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That takes work.
• 16:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and I'm sure there's, there's teachers listening who are like,"I would love to, but, like, I've got like four classes of 30 kids.
• 16:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do I do that?"
• 16:33
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So you don't have to get to everybody every day.
• 16:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So I might do two kids a day.
• 16:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Two kids a day, just sit down and just have that one-on-one.
• 16:41
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Or sometimes what I would do is say, um, you know,"Does anyone wanna chat?" You know, and they knew what that meant.
• 16:48
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They knew what that meant, and they, they could come up and say,"Yeah, let's chat." So I just, it, yeah, it doesn't take much.
• 16:54
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I know we always encourage when they're at work and when they're doing things, but to me, that connection of talking to them and them talking to me and said,"What are some things that, you know, you're concerned about in the class or anything like that, and let's have a con- conversation that way." So they get to know.
• 17:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So there was one student.
• 17:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And the other thing I always do, they didn't have to stay in their desks because it just didn't work.
• 17:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It didn't work with this class to stay in their desks.
• 17:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It wasn't their way.
• 17:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So I would just say,"Huddle up." So they would come.
• 17:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: When we would teach, when I would teach math, they would come.
• 17:29
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Some would be on the floor, some would be on desks, some would be on chairs they'd bring up, but we'd just be in a really nice, intimate, intimate community, like, just close together.
• 17:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And that's so much nicer than like,"Hello, back there.
• 17:44
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You know, do you know the a-" And it was great for class management too, right?
• 17:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But...
• 17:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, y- so going back to that idea of connection because even what you're saying- Yeah about the huddling, that also has to do with connection.
• 17:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: It has to do with everybody sorta like being together.
• 17:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: It kinda gets rid of the, um, like the hierarchy of like you're at the back, you're at the front.
• 18:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 18:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know this might seem really obvious, but I think, I- I- I think there are, are a lot of folks, and I completely understand why, I think at a certain point I wasn't able to explain, and I would love to hear from you why you think this is important.
• 18:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I know that there is this idea of, we don't have time for connection.
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've gotta teach content.
• 18:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell us why it actually, like you said, nothing would've happened in this class without me getting to know my students.
• 18:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What, tell me how it worked.
• 18:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, why did it make that difference?
• 18:29
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Because it, it built that trust, and it brought down some walls that these kids had up.
• 18:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I mean, they were tough kids.
• 18:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They, yeah, they were, they were...
• 18:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I learned so much from them, right?
• 18:42
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I remember, and, and I remember at the time, um, they, I would, I would call home as well, and they were,"Miss M?" I said,"Yeah, put your mom," or whoever's on the, your guardian, whoever- Yeah your caretaker, and I would say something positive to that person about that child, that student, that whatever.
• 19:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And it, yeah, it takes time, but I, I'm, I'm not there just to teach the content and, and I believed in that, and so I took the time, and it took a lot of time.
• 19:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, it did, but it built relationships, and those kids felt seen.
• 19:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, they felt respected.
• 19:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Did we still have classroom management issues?
• 19:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yes.
• 19:25
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But- It happened through humanity.
• 19:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was a more, it was just a connection.
• 19:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So-and-so, you know,"Sorry, miss." Like that kind of thing.
• 19:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 19:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: A- 100%.
• 19:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's so funny, we, like literally an hour ago, I was like,"You know what, Cathy?
• 19:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You remind me of my high school math teacher," and that was what she would do.
• 19:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: She always made a point to call home to say something nice.
• 19:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I remember my parents, the first time it happened, it was the first time a teacher had ever said anything nice about me to them.
• 19:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Before, it was all, the only reason to call home is if there's a problem.
• 19:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah,
• 19:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: yeah.
• 19:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it really changes the dynamic because not only, like, does it build trust with the parents, who often are like,"What is happening in this classroom?" But the student is like,"Oh my God, this teacher is on my side."
• 20:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 20:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's not just there to, like, berate me or to make me feel bad or whatever.
• 20:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, she's got my back.
• 20:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: She wants me to feel good.
• 20:17
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But we're there to teach kids, and I just love...
• 20:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And even with my grad students, even with my pre-service students, I love getting to know who they are beyond just the classroom.
• 20:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I think that's just important.
• 20:29
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That's about being human.
• 20:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That's about building these relationships.
• 20:33
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I know we're busy, but I think it makes a lot of difference for these kids.
• 20:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't...
• 20:38
  Cathy Marks Krpan: The content will get taught, but I think the relationships and trust, I think that goes a long way.
• 20:45
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I really do.
• 20:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and I always say it's like, yes, it takes time, but it also takes time to have to reteach something over and over again because no one's paying attention.
• 20:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And when people feel seen, they're more likely to pay attention, right?
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're more likely to take that risk to try because there is that trust, and I, I think in the end you save time.
• 21:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Absolutely.
• 21:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really do think in the end you save time.
• 21:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you look at the year as a whole, maybe it's like you're front-loading the time'cause you've gotta get to know them, you gotta make the phone calls, you gotta do the interviews, but they're going to be more engaged, which means you're gonna save time.
• 21:14
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was a f- yeah, and it was a fascinating year because the other thing that I've never shared all these stories, but the other thing...
• 21:20
  Cathy Marks Krpan: see that?
• 21:20
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You get an exclusive.
• 21:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um.
• 21:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: The other thing I would do, just because I, I just enjoyed it, um, I would stay in my class...
• 21:30
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Okay, two things.
• 21:31
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Number one, I didn't have a teacher's desk.
• 21:34
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was out of the classroom because-
• 21:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Very Peter Liljedahl of you
• 21:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I feel that the teacher's desk is always placed at a location that is prime real estate in the classroom.
• 21:44
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's by the window.
• 21:45
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's by somewhere.
• 21:46
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I want my kids to have that real estate.
• 21:48
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't want it.
• 21:49
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So, I took that out, and I just had bins, which was great.
• 21:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bins for what?
• 21:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: To sit on?
• 21:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Bins, no.
• 21:54
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Bins to put my stuff in.
• 21:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, okay.
• 21:56
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And my students didn't use the desk.
• 21:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You know, when they put sh- shit in the desks-
• 22:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 22:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: and you have to clean out their desk?
• 22:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Boom.
• 22:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So, I had bins.
• 22:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Their math book for, for, were in the bins and whatever.
• 22:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: What grade are you talking about?
• 22:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Still middle school?
• 22:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It could be middle school, so I had 7-1, 7-2, 8-1, 8-2.
• 22:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But even when I taught, um, grade four, grade five, grade- Okay grade three, everything was in the bins.
• 22:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Okay.
• 22:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So, if I wanted their language arts notebook, it was there.
• 22:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, but it, it was just, um, over lunch, um, at the, the middle school level I would, I would eat my lunch in the classroom and I said,"If anybody wants to come in and do work or whatever, or hang out, you can," and they would.
• 22:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And it was really fascinating to me, um, over recess,"Miss, can I come in?" Because you'd hear their conversations, right?
• 22:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I'm right there.
• 22:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I mean- So you're learning stuff about them and about real, like, it's like Real Housewives kind of thing, so it's-
• 22:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was gonna say, it's your own reality show, but it's productive because you want to get to know them.
• 22:50
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was amazing.
• 22:50
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was amazing.
• 22:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I'd say,"You know I'm here.""Yes, Miss.
• 22:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We know you're here, but we're g- we're, we wanna talk about..." Okay, fine.
• 22:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you're not making Because, I mean, obviously you need a break, so you're kind of like,"I, you're, I'm, you're not gonna ask me for help, but feel free to sit near me and also eat your lunch."
• 23:03
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, or just sit in the classroom.
• 23:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We'd play music.
• 23:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I'd play music, and it was just great, and that's another way we've just built...
• 23:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I just loved it.
• 23:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was so great.
• 23:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I love being- In the classroom
• 23:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were just the be- We, we- I'm still really, I wanna hang on to, like I'm still really thinking about this idea of like when we say getting to know our students, it can mean so many things.
• 23:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can mean finding out what their favorite TV show is.
• 23:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can mean finding out if they have siblings.
• 23:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can mean just hearing them talk and being like,"Oh my God, I'm really noticing that like she's the one in the group that keeps making everyone laugh." Like, do you know what I mean?
• 23:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it can be any of those things.
• 23:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you can learn through observation.
• 23:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like I always say this about compliments.
• 23:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: You remember how earlier you were like,"It's really superficial to just be like,'Oh, I notice you're engaged'"?
• 23:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 23:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: If I like said to you, like,"You look really great today," that'd be fine.
• 23:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Well, thank you.
• 23:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 23:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: But if I was like,"I love your hair." Yeah, yeah.
• 23:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, the colors in it- Yeah are really making your eyes pop, it's like that's for you.
• 23:56
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 23:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 23:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so like to make sure you're saying something like that to a student for them to be like,"Wow, she really sees me."
• 24:02
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 24:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not just lip service.
• 24:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And because she really sees me, I feel like I actually have value here.
• 24:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, absolutely, and maybe they'll start seeing other people as well.
• 24:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Mm.
• 24:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, maybe it, it continues, right, the journey and everything that's happening and, and, you know, when they're upset and so-and-so's not going to the dance because of so-and-so.
• 24:22
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And that all comes into play, right?
• 24:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: When they come in that classroom, whatever, whatever grade level it is, what's happening on the outside, what's happening at recess, that comes in, and that's part of the journey that we're taking with our students.
• 24:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And you can't, yeah and I still do that.
• 24:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I still do that even with my university students.
• 24:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like,"Oh, something's off today.
• 24:41
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't fee- I feel something is...
• 24:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Are you, are you okay?" And when we st- and then s- all of a sudden something happened that blah blah blah blah, and they want me to know and whatever.
• 24:50
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So-
• 24:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's so, that, I think this is part of that conversation of you ca- like you said, we're teaching kids, not content.
• 24:55
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 24:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're teaching people, so you, you can't If you wanna be like,"Well, their lives and who they are have nothing to do with content," like, you're gonna be very disappointed to find out that a lesson just might not land.
• 25:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because stuff, if something's going on with us, it's going on with us period.
• 25:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: We're hu- we're, we're emotional beings.
• 25:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 25:12
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And, and, and math tends to be, as you very well know, um, an anxiety-provoking- Yeah kind of thing.
• 25:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, and it's the way it's taught sometimes.
• 25:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's, it's past experiences that people have.
• 25:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And by the time students get to even grade four or grade five, grade si- they've already solidified how they think of school, how they think of teachers, how they think of mathematics.
• 25:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So I'd like to be that person to kind of undo that a little bit if there's some negativity there- Mm-hmm and just sort of sit with that.
• 25:44
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Because the best classroom management strategies are not gonna work if the kids do not trust who we are, if the students don't trust who we are, or even know who we are, right?
• 25:56
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It's about us taking the risk and sharing who we are as well and, and that kind of thing.
• 26:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's a good, like, first thing for someone to share if we have someone listening who's like,"I never tell my students anything about me.
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I don't want them to know personal stuff about me"?
• 26:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I just think, you know, what did you do on the we- what did everybody do on the weekend?
• 26:13
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Here's something I did on the weekend, or here's something Oh, you know, I'm trying to learn to cook, or I'm trying to learn to do this, or I'm trying to learn to do that.
• 26:21
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And I think photos of different things, if you have pets.
• 26:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I know that sounds superficial, but it connects a bit to, uh-
• 26:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It humanizes you, right?
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This...
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like sometimes we don't humanize the students, and often the students don't humanize teachers.
• 26:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like,"It's just this person, this gremlin trying to, like, force me to do fractions."
• 26:36
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Can I tell you a st- Of I like clothing, and I like just ensembles, putting things together.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: We both have full-size suitcases for a three-day trip.
• 26:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That, this is true.
• 26:45
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Manipulatives aside.
• 26:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And so my students would take notice of what I would wear.
• 26:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And the reason why I think I'm gonna dress as best I can, like I do for anybody, uh, because one time when I was teaching, um, the students noticed that I was dressed up better than usual,'cause I had an interview or something.
• 27:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: "Oh, I, you know, I have an appointment." And then another day I came in dressed up and thinking,"Oh, she must have another appointment." It made me realize, you know what?
• 27:14
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I shouldn't be dressing for appointments.
• 27:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You're my most important appointment.
• 27:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 27:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So that's why I just try...
• 27:20
  Cathy Marks Krpan: and I, and I don't mean, like, you know, Gucci and whatever.
• 27:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I'm just saying just to look-
• 27:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 27:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: whatever it means to look and dress for that individual, that would be what I would do for my students, so I was teaching grade eights.
• 27:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And they would say,"Miss, Miss." like one time I wore, said,"Oh, Miss, like that color's too bright, Miss.
• 27:40
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Oh my gosh.""Like shut down the lights, man.""Like what's going on?" Miss, Miss, that's like a 4 out of 10.""4 out of 10?
• 27:47
  Cathy Marks Krpan: This is a 4 out of 10?" And I, and I, and I wrote 4 out of 10 on the board.
• 27:53
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And so the next day we'd have 4 out of 10, and I said,"Okay, we're gonna..." Right.
• 27:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: This is horrible, but I- it worked.
• 27:59
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Said,"What about this outfit?
• 28:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: What do you think?""Miss, that's a 6.""Why is it a 6?" We put the- and we did like de- I taught decimals that way.
• 28:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 28:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So, so that we would, like, and we did.
• 28:09
  Cathy Marks Krpan: So then one time I'm getting ready and I'm thinking,"What am I gonna wear?" And I asked Tony, my husband, I said,"You know what?
• 28:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't know what to wear." He goes,"Why don't you wear blah, blah, blah?" I said,"I'm not wearing blah, blah, blah.
• 28:18
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That's a 3 out of 10.""I'm not putting that on." According to my grade eight student, that doesn't even...
• 28:24
  Cathy Marks Krpan: But it was, it was an ongoing joke with us around that.
• 28:28
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, it wasn't about making judgments about people's clothing, but they, it was a way to get to these kids-
• 28:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm
• 28:35
  Cathy Marks Krpan: hearing is- and actually make it meaningful to them,'cause then all of a sudden we started having averages and it was fun.
• 28:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, what I'm hearing is you did exactly what you've been talking about this entire podcast, which is you got to know them.
• 28:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 28:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: You observed that they were interested- They were interested in this thing.
• 28:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were like,"It appears that you're really interested in what I'm wearing." So
• 28:54
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I c- It doesn't matter what it was.
• 28:55
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, if I was wearing a Michigan sweatshirt, that was a big deal to them.
• 28:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 28:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: You noticed what they were interested in.
• 29:01
  Cathy Marks Krpan: They love them, yeah.
• 29:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you took, and also I'd like to say by you writing those numbers on the board, they now have ownership over that.
• 29:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Oh, yeah.
• 29:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was funny.
• 29:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: They created that scale.
• 29:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was great.
• 29:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: It was great.
• 29:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, okay, this has been amazing.
• 29:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know what we've been talking about for half an hour.
• 29:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Me too.
• 29:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: It started with...
• 29:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: But let m- uh, you know what?
• 29:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're gonna, you're gonna love how I'm about to land the plane.
• 29:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ah! Okay?
• 29:19
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You got it on time.
• 29:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, okay, we on time because what we are talking about now is flight adjacent.
• 29:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because the other thing Cathy has taught me is about packing, okay?
• 29:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: She is the one who last year made me feel okay about bringing a full size suitcase.
• 29:34
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Don't shame people because they have large suitcases.
• 29:37
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, what difference does it make?
• 29:39
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You bring on, you know, you be you.
• 29:42
  Cathy Marks Krpan: You bring on your little fat knapsack on the plane- we're fine with that I'm gonna pack, and even if my suitcase is empty, I'm gonna live large, fill it up, do what I need to do because I want choice.
• 29:57
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I want choice.
• 29:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't care if choice is about sweatshirts, if it's about jeans, if it's about dresses, if it's about pants.
• 30:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I don't care.
• 30:06
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I want choice.
• 30:07
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That is it.
• 30:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I make no excuses.
• 30:10
  Cathy Marks Krpan: No excuses.
• 30:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And how I'm gonna tie this together right now is in all of the research around trauma-informed education, it has been shown that one of the key things that will help an anxious student or a student that is exhibiting off-task behavior because their needs aren't being met is to give them choice.
• 30:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 30:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Choice of any kind, exactly like she just said.
• 30:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be the sweatshirts.
• 30:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be what, do you wanna write with pencil or pen?
• 30:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you wanna work in a group or individually?
• 30:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you wanna do it on the whiteboard, or do you wanna do it on a piece of paper?
• 30:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you wanna work at your seat or on the carpet?
• 30:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: That alone.
• 30:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you wanna do this question or that question?
• 30:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've given you 10 questions.
• 30:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Pick two that you wanna do.
• 30:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: When you do that, a student is always more likely to do the task if there is any element of choice.
• 30:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yes.
• 30:51
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And we're helping them navigate the unknown because we're helping them make decisions on their own about different things, so that is really critical.
• 31:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: We just...
• 31:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, no, keep going, but we are landing.
• 31:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just- We are landing the plane
• 31:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: just like packing that suitcase, baby.
• 31:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just like packing that suitcase.
• 31:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just like packing that suitcase.
• 31:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just like us having the choice in the very beginning.
• 31:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you know what, to say, I would have loved if on a plane, this is what bothers me when there's all these difficulties, if they would give us choice, if they would say something like"you know what?
• 31:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You guys can get on the plane or off the plane while you wait." I understand logistically they can't do that sometimes.
• 31:23
  Cathy Marks Krpan: "Do you want a$10,000 voucher for a hotel or not?" Like, that's it.
• 31:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or even like,"Do you want water?
• 31:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you want..." Instead of being like,"Here's water,""Do you want a beverage?
• 31:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Pick.
• 31:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you want a sna-..." Like,"Do you want this or that?" Like,"Would you prefer to...
• 31:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You guys can get up and move around," instead of just,"Sit still.
• 31:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Be quiet.
• 31:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Don't ask questions.
• 31:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have no choice.
• 31:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have no agency."
• 31:43
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah, but there could be laws Like aviation laws that we don't know about that could kibosh everything
• 31:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: we just said.
• 31:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: If any pilots are listening to this podcast, please touch us.
• 31:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'd love to hear from you.
• 31:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you are a pilot, maybe you're a teacher with a pilot spouse or friend- feel free to let us know what you think of our analogy.
• 31:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did we land the plane?
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: We can't wait to hear from you.
• 32:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cathy- This is it this was, this was so much fun.
• 32:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: This was great.
• 32:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you have fun?
• 32:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did.
• 32:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh.
• 32:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wait.
• 32:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let, let me ask you the question I ask every podcast guest.
• 32:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh-oh.
• 32:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 32:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Before we- Yeah land land.
• 32:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, we're on the tarmac.
• 32:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, we're going to the gate.
• 32:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Question number one: What would you say if somebody said to you,"You know what?
• 32:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love everything you're saying, but y- I, I'm just never gonna get it.
• 32:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: It doesn't matter if I have choice.
• 32:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: It doesn't matter if that.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just not a math person."
• 32:26
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I think it's about where you are, look at who you are, and what you've done.
• 32:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: I think it's about highlighting past successes- Oof of what somebody has done, and going into the past and saying,"What do you mean by that?" And I think also, and it's about landing the plane for what we said, what do you mean by a math person?
• 32:44
  Cathy Marks Krpan: What is a math person?
• 32:46
  Cathy Marks Krpan: 'Cause if their understanding is a math person that they have an applied sci- like a, a math degree of some sort, or they're a physicist, well, in that category that you've created for yourself, that you are probably not that kind of math person.
• 33:03
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Um, but what do you understand?
• 33:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Like, what are the other examples of what a math person can be?
• 33:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it.
• 33:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And finally, if there's one thing, only one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?
• 33:15
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Humanity.
• 33:17
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Make it more human, more emotionally connected to the person.
• 33:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What perfect timing.
• 33:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think a session is about to come in here right now.
• 33:25
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Maybe we should-
• 33:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe we should just be the session.
• 33:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should we just set up a PowerPoint?
• 33:29
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Quick, quick, quick, right now.
• 33:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Safety demonstration.
• 33:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 33:32
  Cathy Marks Krpan: There you go.
• 33:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 33:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're the best.
• 33:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love you.
• 33:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 33:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I just love her so much.
• 33:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: And honestly, I would have continued the convo, but, like, the next session speaker walked into the room to set up for his session.
• 33:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And while this is unrelated, I would like to add that this man told me he was a school principal.
• 33:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And why does that matter to you?
• 33:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, because he asked me what I was doing in the room, and I was like,"Blah, blah, I was just recording a podcast about math anxiety." And then he told me, at this math education conference that we were both at, that he had never heard of math anxiety, which, like, I don't know, I found kind of concerning as a principal.
• 34:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like,"How is this possible?" And, like, obviously, no shade to him.
• 34:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Obviously, it's never too late to learn something new, and I hope he went home and looked into it, but it does show us how much work there is to be done around understanding the complicated relationship students have with math.
• 34:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So at least we're all out here doing the work.
• 34:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I hope you guys loved this impromptu conversation with Cathy as much as I did.
• 34:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Please do text us and tell us if we landed the plane and what your biggest takeaway was.
• 34:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: We wanna hear from you.
• 34:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I hope you guys are having the best summer.
• 34:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you all for making Math Therapy a part of your poolside PD, and I'll see you next week.
• 34:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: we haven't discussed why we think that this entire story is a metaphor for teaching.
• 34:52
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Yeah.
• 34:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's true.
• 34:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have to take these bracelets off'cause David will kill me.
• 34:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 34:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hold the mic, and you can keep talking.
• 34:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so I wanna know-
• 34:58
  Cathy Marks Krpan: And how, how would he kill you?
• 35:00
  Cathy Marks Krpan: That would be another podcast.
• 35:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, he would get He got really mad last time I did this,'cause they're too jingly.
• 35:04
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Well, mine's jingly.
• 35:05
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Is mine too jingly?
• 35:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, you just have one.
• 35:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, see how I have a million?
• 35:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, okay.
• 35:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, we're back.
• 35:08
  Cathy Marks Krpan: Okay.