Latest / The SEANC View / Big changes are coming to the state's HR law

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Big changes are coming to the state's HR law · The SEANC View

0:10
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Scenic View podcast.
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This is Jonathan Owens, along with Artis Watkins, Suzanne Beasley, and Samantha Klein.
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We have an awesome interview scheduled for later in the episode with State Human
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Resources Director Stacey Meyer. But first, we want to just kind of talk a little
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bit about what's going on in the news and maybe some other topics.
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The only real news item I have is the ongoing WakeMed fiasco,
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WakeMed and Atrium merger.
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And Artis, you spoke at the Wake County Commissioners meeting on Monday.
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We posted that to our Facebook if you would like to go watch it.
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It was an awesome speech from artists. She really let them have it.
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John enjoys that, doesn't he? Yeah, it's awesome. I love it when she gets angry
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artists, except when it's at me. Spicy.
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Look, okay, so just to step back for a minute, just explain why I was angry.
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Wake Med and Atrium, a hospital here in Wake County in Raleigh,
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and a hospital system that's national, but Charlotte's the biggest North Carolina
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presence of Atrium, announced on a Friday afternoon, like, yeah,
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we're merging, and Wake County Board of Commissioners will be voting on it Monday.
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This, again, was on a Friday afternoon a few months ago. This was in,
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yeah, I think May, I think.
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Yeah, in May. And so there was no public notice. this attempt to sneak it through.
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Turns out they'd been talking to each other, according to them,
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for two years, Wake Med and Atrium, about doing this.
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The county, the taxpayers built Wake Med in the first place.
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So the taxpayers paid for the hospital. In 1997, the taxpayers made an agreement
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with the hospital where it would be a nonprofit, independent entity.
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However, Wake County Board of Commissioners would control,
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enough seats on the board of Wake Med to make it clear that they could make
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sure that taxpayer investment was protected in so much that they could make
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sure WakeMed didn't just go off the rails and put the community first.
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Fast forward to today, Wake Medanatrium just wanted the board of commissioners
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to just, county commissioners in Wake County, to rubber stamp it and let them do their own thing.
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We know every time hospitals consolidate, prices go up.
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The health plan specifically said for any state employee, no matter where they live in North Carolina,
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they don't have to live here for it to affect them, that the health plan would
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go up up to $130 a year more out of each health plan member's pockets.
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If these two hospitals got together. Why is that?
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Atrium, according to the health plan, charges about 15 to 40 percent more for
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procedures than WakeMed.
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And so the prices would go up, period. I mean, there's just no way around this.
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Atrium's not seeking to put a couple billion dollars into something so they
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can charge less than they like to charge. It's just not believable.
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If they are wanting to do that, I don't know why they don't make their contract
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between them and WakeMed public.
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Instead, what they did, and here's I'm getting to the angry part.
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Instead, Atrium and WakeMed met with Wake County Board of Commissioners,
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three members at a time, because if you meet with four, it's subject to open meetings laws,
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and it's considered a public meeting, and you have to be transparent.
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Instead, they met with no more than three of them at a time to show them what
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would be in the contract, but
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no one in the public knows. They're just saying, it's going to be great.
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They won't commit, they will surely hire X number new people in Wake County,
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they won't commit, the prices will stay the same or go lower,
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they won't commit to anything like that, they just say, trust us, it's going to be better.
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So the main beef that we have is watching our members' costs go up all over the state,
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because a hospital that has $10 billion in reserves and a $26 million a year's
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CEO wants to come take over a hospital here in Raleigh, and we're not going
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to watch our members' costs go up without a fight.
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But we're specifically not going to do that when the Wake County Board of Commissioners
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is choosing to do something so chump as to have secret meetings to keep it from
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the public record. That's just.
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That's blatantly in-your-face sketchy. So 100 people signed up to comment the other day.
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And, you know, the vast majority of people who were speaking against this are
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just members of the Wake County community.
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There were, ironically, a lot of people who spoke for the two hospitals merging
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who are—a lot of them get a paycheck from one or the other, you know.
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Yeah. And our last episode was with Nathan Foster from the NC Justice Center
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and Anthony Pope, a community leader here in Southeast Raleigh.
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And it was, we've really, I think it was a really good episode.
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It was really interesting. Yeah. So if you are more interested in this,
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you want to know more about this issue, then go back and listen to that episode.
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But yeah. And Monday, you were scheduled to go to the meeting at 2 p.m.
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To, you know, do your public comments. And I was at Crabtree Mall walking through
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and I noticed an ad was already on their, you know, their screen that was wake
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med and atrium together forever. Stronger together. Yeah.
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So. And there's a billboard on Capitol Boulevard to that effect.
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Stronger together. And I saw a TV ad yesterday as well.
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So it doesn't seem like they're really worried about the whole commissioner.
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Yeah. There's nothing genuine.
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They're screaming. We don't really care. Yeah. Now, I did briefly speak with
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Don Gensig, who runs WakeMed and the CEO of WakeMed, prior to the meeting and
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invited him on this podcast.
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So we'll follow up and told him if he'd like to come and have his say as to
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how he thinks it could be helpful for state employees and retirees.
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We are, in fact, still all ears.
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So that invitation is genuine and it stands. And if he would like to come in,
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we really would genuinely hear from him.
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I don't think I heard or maybe I just missed it when you were talking about
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it, but I had not heard the 40 percent increase number.
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That is a lot. Well, remember, we can't get the specific prices we're paying to people.
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But the health plan did confirm what we pay atrium and the health plan compared to what we pay WakeMed.
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We pay atrium 15 to 40 percent more depending on what the procedure is.
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That's crazy. Outrageous.
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So they did not vote this time, but they're expected to vote on it in September,
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right, at their September meeting? That's what they said. But,
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you know, there's a lot of people that think this is just in the eyes of the
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hospital such a done deal.
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And I can see why they would think that. They got this exclusive audience free from the public eye.
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By the county commissioners and the public was limited to two minutes apiece
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to say their piece to these county commissioners, there was no time to really,
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give facts to the county commissioners that they need.
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And for the record, there was a bidder for WakeMed that was,
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what, twice as much? Yeah, UNC HealthCare bid $5 billion, which is two and a half times as much.
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So obviously we're going to keep watching that. I don't have any other topics
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offhand. And so why don't we just go to the Gen Z moment before we can switch to the interview.
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And Sammy, you said you had a good one this week, right? I hope it's a good one.
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So I found this article from the Stanford Report of a study that was done last
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semester talking about what Gen Zs think about political polarization.
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And in a political science course at Stanford, research and a study was done
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by students that found Gen Z is more optimistic than any other age group about
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the possibility of bridging the political divide in America. Oh, detail.
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Says that polarization doesn't seem to be a fixed trend in Gen Z's mind.
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And one of their students said that our identities and views are still malleable,
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and that's why this moment matters so much.
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Now, the professor is also a head of research at a nonpartisan think tank called
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More in Common, and she has taught this course for the past couple years,
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and she found that working with students surfaces concerns that standard polling may miss.
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So the students took time to explore different topics like the political influence
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of online content, promoting masculinity, the religious revival in Gen Z's lives,
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and their beliefs on the American dream.
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And they also examined academic literature on polarization and how it affects
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American politics, how it contributes to political gridlock,
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drives support for political violence, and erodes trust in American institutions.
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Now, one student examined the role that social media plays in inflating Gen
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Z's hostility towards people from opposing political parties.
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The data she found was a little bit complicated because she found that Gen Z's
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who use social media daily or almost daily are more likely to dislike the opposing party.
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However, she also wanted to know whether social media deepens the divide between
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what Gen Z thinks people from the other side believe versus what they actually think.
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So the results that she found with that showed that Gen Z's don't hold wildly
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distorted views about what the other side thinks when they use social media every day.
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But the familiar narrative is that being online warps your perspective and changes
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what you think about other people.
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But she found that Gen Z's kind of believed, for the most part,
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what they believed about the other party was typically what the other party
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believed about themselves.
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Now, another student did research that found students who identified as Republican
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and conservative were more confident that polarization can be reduced
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than Gen Z's who identified as limit rule and Democrats, which tracked with
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previous studies done by the Pew Research Center that stated a person's view
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of government depends on whether or not their political party is in charge.
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Yeah, I can see that. Mm-hmm. Yep.
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And they also found that Gen Z is more likely to attribute problems to systematic
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failures in democracy rather than specific leaders or policies.
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Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of, I think maybe that grows out of like
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pessimism in general, you know, that they don't see a good future.
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Now, the students who completed this study do say that they now feel they have
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a better understanding as to what kind of solutions matter.
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And they are more optimistic that we can rebuild trust in the system while working to reform it.
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I hope they're right. I hope so too. And they stated that while we are inheriting
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a polarized nation, we are also inheriting deep wells of democratic vitality,
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and we have a high standard for our democracy, but we believe that living up
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to those standards are within reach and we hope that other generations will
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listen and be inspired by Gen Z's visions.
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Yeah, let's hope so, because they're not in a good spot right now. At all. Yeah.
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But that kind of does sound like the American ideal from way back when, even.
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Yeah. You know, that the reason we did so well as a country is we believed in
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ourselves and our systems.
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Mm-hmm. And so now, you know, it's not the first time we've had hiccups in that.
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I mean, my goodness, this country went through Watergate. Yeah.
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And, of course. Yeah, I think that across the board, no matter what generation,
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we really need a renewed respect for our institutions and for America and for our promise of America.
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And there's a lot of pessimism. And I'm on my soapbox now.
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But yeah, good topic there. Good Gen Z moment. Insightful. Thank you.
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Well, it was a great interview. Like I said, we recorded it a little earlier,
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but I think you'll get something out of it. So enjoy.
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We've talked about the Public Workforce Modernization Act several times lately
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on the podcast without going too in-depth with it.
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And each time I think we've said we'll need to have Stacey Meyer on to talk about it.
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And so this week we have our old friend, State Human Resources Director,
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Stacey Meyer, to talk about it.
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Welcome, Director Meyer. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
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I really appreciate the opportunity. Okay, great. Well, we know you're a very
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busy, very busy person, so we won't waste your time.
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I'll say that you've been on her podcast several times. So if you want to go
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back and get the bio for her, just go back to some of those episodes.
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She has done everything in different agencies, including running one of the agencies.
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And now she's running the Office of State Human Resources. And as we've said
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before on this podcast, there's nobody better to do it because she has seen
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it all in all of the different agencies. It's got to be helpful to have had
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to deal with the problems as somebody trying to run an agency.
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You know what OSHR in your best case scenario would have changed,
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right? Yes, I've had just about every job in state government.
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You know, I started as a clerk.
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That's right. Yeah, I mean, way, way long ago, more than 36 years ago.
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So I have seen it from every level. But I think the thing that gives me the
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most insight is that I'm a state employee.
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And I love that. I will tell you, you know, I wouldn't have been here this long if I didn't love it.
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So I love public service and either working at many agencies or representing
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them, you know, gives you a unique insight into how agencies work and what it
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is to be a state employee and what the needs are in agencies.
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So I have a unique perspective.
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And we've got a whole list of questions for you. We want to definitely get to
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that. But before we jump into it.
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I think sometimes there's confusion over what the Office of State Human Resources,
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what their role is supposed to be.
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And I know even I fall into that trap sometimes.
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Some of our members think OSHR is there to advocate for employees,
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but that's not the job of OSHR.
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Good things can happen for employees because of things OSHR does,
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but your job's not to advocate for employees.
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Well, I mean, I think yes and no. I think they're in part of what you do as
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a public servant, you always have to advocate.
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I mean, it does require some of that, but not for individual employees.
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I mean, our focus is on promulgating policies that help agencies run.
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And of course, all of those policies impact state employees.
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So, I mean, we've had conversations many times about what does it look like
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to totally rewrite a law?
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And what does it look like to, like, reset how your office works?
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So, you know, one thing that made me realize that, you know,
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we haven't overhauled our law in 60 years.
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There have been changes, of course, over time.
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But, you know, looking at policies that impact every person through state employees,
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state employees provide the work. They do the work that impacts every single
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person that lives in North Carolina and every visitor.
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So when you cross that border, a state employee impacts you.
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So we are looking at our laws and our policies to really do all that we can,
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to elevate public service. That's our whole goal.
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So I think there is an advocacy element to that. While we can't go out and advocate
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for individual employees, we always just have to keep that in mind that who
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are we working for and why are we doing this work? So, yeah.
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It is human resources. And so, you know, I want to make sure that we focus on the human part.
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And again, state employees have a tremendous impact on everyone in North Carolina.
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So that law specifically is the State Human Resources Act. And this Public Workforce
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Modernization Act was almost a wholesale rewrite of it or?
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There were some things that stayed the same, but mostly it got updated.
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It got modernized. But there's also a laundry list of things that it did.
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And when we were talking about doing the rewrite, one thing I said in the very
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beginning, and it holds true today to everything we do,
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we look at this through the lens of what kind of impact does this have on agencies?
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What kind of impact does this have on state employees? And we all agreed very
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early on that we were not going to do anything that was a negative impact on state employees.
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So I feel really good in saying that every single thing in this law that has,
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been a modernization effort or a change really is a benefit to state employees because I'm one myself.
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And I know when things are good.
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And if there is an opportunity to make it better, that was our challenge. Let's make it better.
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It was a big challenge, which we can jump into some of the things that happened
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with the rewrite of the State Human Resources Act.
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You know, state government has always had the reputation and,
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well, it's not a reputation. It was fact. It was painfully slow,
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the hiring process of getting someone interviewed and pushed through, I mean, six months.
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So by the time you get to the end of that, you've lost good candidates.
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They've gotten a job somewhere else. So you talk a little bit about how the
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new act would affect being able to hire people in a more timely fashion.
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Well, I will tell you, you were with me that day when I had to testify before House Oversight.
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And I had to say, you know, it takes about 182 days on average.
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So we're working with a 20 percent vacancy rate at the time.
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So we're working with those numbers and having data that really tells you that kind of information.
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We've been able to stand up workday, which gives us more information about the
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hiring process and how long it takes. But I will tell you, we've had an overly
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burdensome hiring process. We had a 12-page, 96-question application.
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So the new act, it helps speed up the process by filling vacancies,
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by eliminating some of the red tape that was there, focusing on what candidates
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can actually do, not just what degrees they have.
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We're trying to streamline, you know, the requirements for job postings,
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get rid of the 12-page 96-question application.
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We can now hire from LinkedIn and Indeed.
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We're looking at every single thing, not just what the law will do for the hiring
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process, but in our policies, we want to make sure that we are streamlining
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the experience for everyone. I think the workforce today is very different than it was 60 years ago.
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People expect an answer in days and not in months.
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And we want, ultimately, the goal is to get the very best state employees that
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we can get and have them be career state employees.
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So that is a real focus of this, is to make it easier and, you know,
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three words, easier, faster, and better in terms of force, not just for employees
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and job seekers, but for agencies.
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The HR, you know, our HR systems are, they are really overburdened.
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You know, application screening can take a long time. Everything can take a
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long time. So we've done a lot of things to make it easier.
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I don't know that we've identified all of them. We're going to continue looking
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at ways to streamline it.
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And we can do that through our policies, not another change in the law.
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The law gives us our framework now, and we know what to work from.
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But as we look at every single policy we have, we want to change it to make
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it better, make it more understandable, to make it more readable, to make it shorter.
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That is so important. We have a thousand-page policy manual that we are really working to streamline.
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And kind of going in that same train of thought, the pathways to getting into
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public service for temporary employees, for, you know, time-limited employees,
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those kind of areas, too.
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We had significant changes in the law on appointment types, and we're working
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right now on those policies.
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But what ultimately, and I said earlier, we want people to grow into state service.
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We want them to come on, but we want them to see developmental opportunities.
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We just revised the performance management policy, and it was very discipline-driven.
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And that, you know, what we want to do is make it a growth kind of experience
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rather than discipline-oriented.
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Now, at some point, you have to look if there's not performance,
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but that's a whole separate policy.
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But looking at a performance management system, it's really a work management system now.
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How do you manage the work and where can employees see growth?
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So, you know, we want work-based learning programs. We're doing things like
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apprenticeships now and skills-based learning. So we can bring people in and
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they can train on the job and get the experience they need and get into a position easier.
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So we love that aspect. In the last session, we allowed people to be converted from temporaries.
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Into a permanent position after six months, we shortened that to three months.
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So those kinds of things, I think, will help address this high vacancy rate
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that we have, and it will bring more people into the system easier and faster.
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And veterans, this act does some special things for veterans.
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I know we had Secretary Millett in here talking about what she would like to
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see, I don't know, about a year ago.
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And can you tell us what ended up? Yeah, I will tell you, we're pretty happy.
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We are right in the middle now of looking at the veterans policy now,
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our veterans preference policy, and hope that we're going to make additional changes.
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But the law this time expanded the veterans preferences to spouses of active
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duty military and active duty service.
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It hasn't done that in the past. Yeah, we had a long conversation with her about that.
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So I'm kind of excited about that. It's a huge thing for the state,
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and you want veterans to want to come to North Carolina.
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Yeah, we do. And we find that, you know, treating people as a package.
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I mean, you know, it's easy for one spouse to get a job or easier,
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but when both have a preference, particularly our military veterans,
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they have a preference or service members, they may get transferred and they
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have the job already. Yeah.
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The spouse has no, you know, it's like they have to start all over again.
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And yet they've been providing the public service of keeping. Right.
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Absolutely. So it's, you know, it is incentive. And I hope that it will help
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many military families. That's the goal.
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We worked really closely with
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Secretary Millett. So we're, I think they're excited about these changes.
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And we're looking to see what more we can do in our policy to make it easier
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and better for veterans.
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Well, the good stuff, pay and flexibility within agencies. There's the ability
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to give performance-based incentives and, I think, cabinet agencies.
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Talk a little bit about how that's expanded to all agencies and the amount and,
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you know, what agency heads can do now.
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Well, I think the main thing is, is that agency heads know their business and their business.
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Budgets better than anyone. I mean, they now have about 95 percent delegation authority,
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and we're trying to make it easier when agencies have money available to them
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that they can do things like performance bonuses.
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So we're working on policies now that will help and make that easier and not
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just relying on what the legislature does.
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For example, if there's some flexibility in performance bonuses that an agency
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has money that's not being used for one resource that could be used for another.
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We want them to be able to do that if that's possible. We want to look at the
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possibilities of using leave as a bonus if an agency doesn't have money available.
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So we're trying to be creative in every way that we can.
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And, you know, it used to be that in order to get a raise, you had to be promoted to a manager, okay?
24:50
And so I don't think that is the best way to look at performance in terms of
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if someone, I mean, a lot of people don't want to be managers and they find
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themselves having to do that kind of thing to advance within their own agency.
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So we are looking at all kinds of flexibilities for one-time bonuses and leave
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as a bonus, just contemplating all kinds of things that could be incentives.
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So I know when the bill was signed into law by Governor Stein,
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the top headline that came out of it was the parental leave sections.
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I know that even the News and Observer story was pretty much all about that.
25:28
And then these other things also happened. So can you tell us a little bit of
25:32
that? Part of that was that there were about a thousand babies. Yeah, there were.
25:35
Can I tell you there were? That's a lot of babies. And when the governor was
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speaking, it's kind of a funny moment, but the place was packed.
25:44
Yeah. And the governor was speaking, and all of the babies were sort of sequestered
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in another room. And you were there.
25:51
And so right when I stood up to take the podium, all the babies came out.
25:56
Oh, yeah. And we, you know, there were babies everywhere. And there were, you know, crawl.
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Babies are big on speechifying. They don't love speechifying.
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And they don't, you know, they want to get down and move.
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And one mom had two babies. She was holding her hands. And the governor reached
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over and said, you know, can I help you?
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And during the speechifying, he was moving about, kind of moving around,
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holding that baby. And when the speeches were over, he said,
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you know, it's been a long time since I held a baby.
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And that mom had two, one in each arm. Oh, she sure did. And anyway,
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it was a funny day and a funny moment.
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And we're really excited about the changes to parental leave.
26:32
But I'm excited about all of these changes. I have to tell you,
26:36
it is the most significant thing that we've done in 60 years to modernize the
26:41
act. and just to get parental leave for state employees where it is out there in the world.
26:47
I mean, that was just sort of a great equalizer. So I'm really happy about it.
26:51
The governor's very happy about it.
26:53
And I think state employees are really going to benefit from that.
26:57
And it goes into effect on October the 1st. That's kind of a big event. That's a big moment.
27:02
And, again, that isn't the only leave because we expanded vacation leave for
27:08
employees with zero to five years. And we're looking at our policy.
27:11
So now there's a total of 120 hours, you know.
27:14
That's great. I don't know when it changed. I can't remember it changing.
27:18
It changed by 10 minutes. At all.
27:20
One time it changed. but I don't even remember in my whole career like when
27:24
it really changed, but it's now 120. So at least we have even numbers,
27:30
but we're looking at policies like upfront leave.
27:34
You know, when you start state government, you have to work a whole year before you earn a day of leave.
27:39
So having some flexibilities around that leave and having agencies understand
27:44
this is a business need, I can do this or I can't do that, giving them the freedom
27:48
to really use that as a benefit,
27:52
to new employees, I think is fantastic.
27:55
So we're working out those policies right now. So I am really excited about that.
28:00
So stay tuned on new policies that are coming. Well, we will.
28:03
And this is some positivity amongst all of the things that are not positive,
28:08
you know, that state employees have experienced and retirees as well.
28:11
But, you know, low wages already and the lack of pay raises,
28:15
not having a budget for a whole year. So flexibility doesn't cost a lot.
28:20
And so when you can be flexible.
28:22
It's great. It's great when we can. I failed to mention bereavement leave,
28:26
but now that's codified.
28:28
It was an opt-in for council estate agencies, and now it's codified.
28:32
So all of the agencies have bereavement leave, and, you know,
28:36
we are looking at that. So we're excited about that process, and now it's codified.
28:42
So I got questions as this was moving through the process about grievance processes. Right.
28:49
You know, those protections that state employees have. Can you speak to how
28:53
that was affected or not affected or, you know?
28:56
Not really affected in this new, in the new rewrite. You know,
28:59
we made some tweaks, but not anything that was really impactful.
29:04
I think what we have to do now, and, you know, we're going to have input from
29:08
stakeholders, from agencies, from you all, from everyone about having a grievance
29:13
process that actually works.
29:16
There's no motivation to remove any protections or anything like that.
29:20
But how do we do this better?
29:22
Because it's not working. I mean, one of the things that I noticed and that
29:27
is a change to the new act is allowing a probationary period to be extended
29:31
by six months if a manager is not sure,
29:35
which I think is a powerful thing because what I was seeing before is,
29:40
they would let employees go that they weren't sure about.
29:43
But now there's not to immediately have to just say, yeah, I can't take this
29:47
chance. They're going to become permanent. And I don't know if I had six more
29:51
months, I might be able to figure it out, but I don't. So I'm just going to let the person go.
29:55
And that's not the goal. You know, if employees can be developed and there's
30:00
an opportunity for them to grow.
30:02
And to be that kind of employee the agency wants, that's what we're after.
30:06
But we have to take a serious look at our discipline policy.
30:09
We've got to get help with that. And we are.
30:13
We have not undertaken that yet. It will be coming. But there's going to be
30:17
a lot of conversation and input around what makes that work and why does it not work.
30:24
But, yeah, the focus wasn't really on that in this rewrite.
30:28
Or at least it wasn't my focus. So you talked a little bit about working with
30:32
Scenic. I know I've brought this up on a few episodes of when we talked about this act specifically.
30:38
Sometimes people think that our job is to just stand on the podium and shout
30:44
and argue with lawmakers about things.
30:47
But there is an aspect of what Suzanne does is like working with agencies to
30:52
get bills to a place we want them. Right.
30:55
And that's a thing that people don't really see. So can you tell us a little
30:58
bit about maybe working with Susanna? Oh, yeah.
31:01
And let me just say right off the bat, this would not have happened without your support.
31:06
And I am so grateful that every time we had a committee meeting, you were there.
31:11
If you couldn't be there, you know, artists, you were there.
31:14
Or someone was there from scenic in the room every time.
31:18
And I think that is one of the key reasons why this bill passed unanimously.
31:23
We didn't have a no vote in a single committee or on the full House floor. That's pretty amazing.
31:29
No no votes is a big deal. I'm very grateful for that.
31:32
But to answer your question, sorry, I digressed.
31:36
But I want to say thank you because I think that is the success of this is working together.
31:43
You know, my success is based on your support. And, you know,
31:47
it is one of those things that makes us able to do this work. And I,
31:53
You know, you can spend a lot of time disagreeing, but if you,
31:57
you know, I look at your job as being a voice for state employees and I can't
32:02
talk, I mean, I can talk to some state employees, but I can't talk to every state employee.
32:06
And you hear things that I don't hear, but for you to be able to send me an
32:11
email or call me or text me and say, I heard this, do you know anything about it?
32:16
Having that kind of relationship strengthens the work that we're able to do
32:20
at OSHR. It does. It totally does.
32:22
It's incredibly important for the legislature to see when we're working together,
32:27
you know, to make good things happen instead of just the constant bumping of noggins over issues.
32:34
And we've heard legislators say, has Scenic signed off on this?
32:36
Yeah. I mean, we get, you know. Every time. Always.
32:40
Every single meeting, you know, I will go meet with a legislator.
32:43
What does Scenic think? Yeah.
32:44
So the good news is, is they're asking what you think, right?
32:48
That's some good news. I mean, that means that you are effective and they know
32:53
that it's important. What you're saying is important.
32:56
And the next question to me is, have you talked to them? Like,
32:59
of course I've talked to them. Yes.
33:02
We've had legislators say that we have signed off of it. Maybe that's not the case. Yeah.
33:07
Yeah. Sometimes you have to reel things back in. But, yeah. Well,
33:11
you know how it goes down there sometimes.
33:12
Well, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm grateful to be able to work together to
33:17
make changes that I think are impactful and support state employees.
33:21
So that's the that's the goal.
33:23
So one thing that happened this year, you and we were on the outside of,
33:28
but you would understand it now, I think, much better than we do.
33:33
We get a lot of questions, though.
33:34
House Bill 171 that banned DEI practices and state governments.
33:40
Governor Stein vetoed it. Legislature overrode that veto.
33:44
Since it ultimately goes to your agency to interpret and oversee,
33:48
can you clarify exactly what it means for employees day to day?
33:51
Because a lot of our employees just feel like we can't get a straight answer,
33:55
on what does it mean to not allow DEI? What is DEI in the eyes of the law?
34:03
Well, that particular law. I may be off, but I think the House overrode it.
34:09
But the Senate has not. And it's not, right now it's not overridden.
34:14
I mean, we're going to follow the law.
34:17
I don't know exactly what it means and looks like.
34:20
That's what I wanted to know. Like, I'm still looking for what it means.
34:23
Yeah. And so I think that, you know, there will be, I'm going to have a number
34:29
of meetings and, you know, I'd love for you to be part of those meetings as
34:33
if that happens and that bill is overridden.
34:36
I mean, we're going to need some clarification of what is it you're looking
34:39
for here? Yeah. Like, what are you thinking? And, you know, there's some of
34:44
this work we are required to do by law.
34:46
But, you know, the thing, the stress is that we're going to follow the law.
34:49
We're going to do what the law says.
34:51
But sometimes, you know, you need clarification. Well, the lines are just all over the place.
34:56
If you can do veteran spouses, how is that not taking a particular group and
35:01
doing something special for them? Right. And we have to look at our policies
35:05
to make sure that they are doing what we need for them to do.
35:08
That we are complying and we have to draft them in such a way that they follow
35:13
the law. So we are watching this whole situation very closely.
35:17
And I can't tell you that I totally understand what the effort is.
35:23
And I mean, there may be some misunderstanding about what's actually happening
35:26
versus what's required to happen. So I think it's a work in progress. It hasn't happened.
35:33
And until it does, you know, I am furiously trying to get everything done by October 1.
35:37
You know, I have a lot of complaints because it's been a long time since I worked in state government.
35:41
But when I worked there, I just don't remember ever being told,
35:45
hey, look, this is where we want you to focus and hire or, you know,
35:49
anything like that. And do you have any complaints from folks about DEI?
35:55
Because we haven't had any. Lawmakers were asking us when the bill was making
35:58
its way through the process. And we're like, our phone hasn't rang one time over this.
36:03
We don't hear anything. I mean, we do what's required by law.
36:06
And we do the training that we need to do under state and federal law. But...
36:12
Don't ever have complaints about that work so i don't,
36:17
okay i really don't know but i'm sure i'm going to be asking a lot of questions yeah
36:22
if that gets overridden well i was gonna say it seems like we're just one step
36:25
away from everybody needing to understand so it was a good time to ask yeah
36:29
i think it's a great time to ask and you know what i i have learned
36:33
throughout this process of getting,
36:35
the the rewrite done is that you know,
36:38
i'm not afraid to ask and,
36:41
it's not a secret and if somebody has a motivation I don't see or understand
36:46
I want to know and so I just make an appointment and go ask those questions and you know
36:52
I have gotten great information that way just say like help me understand this
36:56
because I don't get that right.
36:59
So I'm afraid I have more questions. So artists broke the seal on the curve
37:03
balls over there. Do you have anything else to say about the act before we maybe?
37:07
I have one other curve ball I want to ask you about. So do you have anything
37:11
else about the act specifically?
37:15
No, I have a list of things that it does that, you know, I think is just helpful
37:19
to have a list. I may have shared it with you. I'm not sure,
37:21
but I'll make sure that I leave it with you. But I have to say that my team
37:25
has worked so hard on this.
37:28
And I am so grateful to them.
37:30
It has been long hours, you know, late nights.
37:35
But, you know, getting it over the finish line and the governor signing it into
37:39
law, it was really a for, you know, for at OSHR, it's really a great opportunity
37:46
for us to do things differently than we've done them in the past.
37:50
So we're sort of shifting our delivery of services and becoming more and more
37:56
service oriented. So we have great opportunities that are coming and there's a lot of work to do.
38:02
And I'm thrilled about how far we are. But I think the real work was not at the legislature.
38:08
It was work. And I'm grateful for everything that was done in the building.
38:12
The legislators who sponsored it were so supportive. They helped get things
38:16
done. The governor is tremendously supportive of my efforts.
38:20
But I think that our real challenge is getting the policies right and implementing
38:27
them to teach people a new way.
38:31
One thing I'll say is that, you know, we're changing the way we address our policies.
38:35
You know, in the past, it's just been focused on worst-case scenarios or bring
38:43
in proof of something or we're not,
38:46
as we do this, we're really doing it from a respect aspect and from honoring
38:52
state service and elevating public service and, you know, really looking at
38:57
it through a different lens.
39:00
So I'm hoping that is what we are able to accomplish Yeah, you know state employees
39:04
are the most risk-averse and change-averse people on the planet I love some
39:09
change, though It's largely why people choose public service It's very, well, it used to be.
39:14
Pretty predictable. You knew that you would have good, you know,
39:18
decent pay, not great pay, decent pay and solid benefits.
39:21
Now, that's eroding over time. The benefits are nowhere near as solid and we're
39:25
experiencing the problems with that.
39:29
But that's why people came in. They were tended to be risk-averse folks.
39:34
So, it'll be interesting to see with new policies how folks do.
39:38
Well, I think the pay, I think the pay is important and I think that the benefits are important.
39:43
And knowing, you know, how I've benefited over time and other state employees
39:48
feel about paying benefits. But I think there's something else, too.
39:51
Something else about the work itself, you know, the desire to be a public servant,
39:57
the desire to have flexibility for someone to understand work-life balance,
40:03
the health of an organization.
40:05
These are things that I don't think, I mean, we've thought about over time,
40:10
but we haven't put a lot of work into place to make sure that we look at the human aspect of it, too.
40:16
And I think that there's a lot of satisfaction around feeling good about the
40:20
work that you do and having flexibilities that, you know, if we can do that
40:26
and it doesn't cost anything,
40:28
we should be looking at all those kinds of things. And we want to do that.
40:32
And as we look at these policies, that is the way we are approaching them through
40:36
respect and dignity and all of those kinds of things as it is a focus on how we do this work.
40:44
I don't disagree, but at the end of the day, they've got to pay their bills.
40:47
So, you know, the main respect they want is to be paid what they're worth.
40:51
And we want that. And like I said, we are looking at our classification and
40:57
compensation system to make sure that we are not doing things to agencies that
41:02
limit employees and how much they can earn.
41:05
I mean, and so all of those things need to be looked at very carefully.
41:09
It's not just what the legislature can do.
41:12
Are there things that we can do right now?
41:14
You know, we just raise the ranges, you know, by a certain percentage,
41:19
you know, because you would hear from agencies, you know, you can't go above
41:22
this, you can't do this, or you, this causes compression, or you can't do that.
41:26
But we want to look at everything anew to make sure that we don't have policies
41:32
that are limiting, right?
41:34
We want to do all that we can so employees can be compensated as well as they
41:39
can. Yeah, I was at a Wake County Board of Commissioner's meeting the other
41:43
day, and a presentation was done on salaries in Wake County.
41:46
The average salary in Wake County is apparently mid-80,000.
41:50
And I looked at that and thought, wow, with Wake County being the hub for state
41:55
government, that's a pretty big lag behind where the average state employee salary is.
42:01
And it's only when you see the private sector compared to the public sector
42:07
and then see everything that has changed.
42:10
We can no longer advertise to folks we want to be state employees,
42:14
hey, you'll have health care when you retire, because they won't now,
42:17
the newer ones. And then we can no longer advertise that the retirement system
42:21
and the health care system.
42:23
Will be as strong as they used to be. It used to be truly what they called a
42:26
Cadillac plan health care.
42:28
And it's, you know, we're just not in that place anymore. So what do you think
42:33
to bring young people in would be the number one most important thing we could
42:37
focus on? I'm throwing you a complete curveball. This isn't anything we talked about.
42:41
I will tell you that one thing that we haven't done in a very long time.
42:46
I just don't even remember when it was done, but we just finished an employee
42:50
viewpoint survey for all state employees. I don't know if you know about that.
42:54
But yeah, I knew you did it. Did you get a good response? Well,
42:57
you know, about, I think it's about 20. I didn't bring the figures,
43:00
but I think it's about 26%. What? That's huge.
43:04
For a survey, it kind of is. Yeah.
43:08
We are working on gathering results from that now. We don't have,
43:12
you know, we have some initial indicators of how many people responded.
43:16
But I think that those are things that are important to know what it is that people want.
43:22
And, you know, I think best I can tell, people are proud of their work.
43:26
They're proud of where they work for, you know, who they work for.
43:29
And, you know, I feel good that we've taken that step.
43:34
Now, the most important thing is we actually do something with that kind of
43:38
thing. And we want to make sure as we are evaluating the results when they come
43:42
is that we'll figure out what that is. But,
43:44
It's really all focused on elevating public service. And it's,
43:49
you know, it is a combination. And I think that I say this is looking at a newer
43:56
generation of state employees.
43:57
We want people who will stay. We want people who will see the value in the work that they're doing.
44:03
And they want to do this work and they want to serve North Carolina.
44:07
So we want to attract a very diverse workforce.
44:13
I think that is, you know, a real strength when you look at how many people
44:16
can retire in the next five years. So, you know, we have to look at things like
44:20
burnout rates. We have to look at, you know, again, job satisfaction. And we can't do it.
44:26
Yes, I agree with the pay and the benefits. I absolutely agree that that is a big part of it.
44:32
But I think things like maternal leave and leave flexibility and.
44:37
You know, career growth of when you're doing this performance management assessment or the work.
44:42
Now we call it managing work policy. Now, as your work is being managed and
44:47
you are being looked at, you know, you should see your path,
44:50
your career growth path.
44:53
And you can do this and you can do that. And, I mean, I was so lucky in state
44:57
government that I got to move around and do different things and see different things.
45:01
And, you know, I want to make sure that we are focused on developing our employees so they're not bored.
45:09
And, you know, I do have a 23-year-old and, you know.
45:13
You don't want her bored. And you hear, oh, yeah, well, I want to do that and
45:18
then I want to do this because I can't possibly do something for longer than two years.
45:22
But I want, I mean, I feel like every job should be fulfilling,
45:27
okay? And, you know, I've had jobs that were more fulfilling than others,
45:31
but certainly there was something great and I learned in every single job I had.
45:38
So I want everyone to feel that way. What's that curveball? Oh,
45:42
so very quickly, I know you're very short on time.
45:46
And these people over here are all going to groan when I ask this question.
45:49
Oh, God. It's okay. What is it? AI.
45:52
Go ahead and do your groan. Oh, he loves AI.
45:54
Okay, so. It's there. Yeah. It's alive. Everyone's worried about losing their
45:59
job to AI. And state employees probably aren't different.
46:02
The governor's sign an executive order, you know, pushing AI through state agencies,
46:09
see how we can find efficiencies and things.
46:12
What do you say about, I mean, what do you say to state employees who are maybe
46:15
concerned? I think AI is a tool.
46:18
And OSHR has leaned in to figure out what is that tool that's going to help us?
46:24
It's not going to replace us. It's going to enhance the work that we do.
46:29
But I don't think there's going to be a situation where there is not human interaction.
46:36
I don't see things getting turned over to AI. I think AI can do things faster
46:42
than humans can in some regard, but there's never going to be that element where
46:47
you don't have to have the discretion.
46:50
So how we work is going to change. And the sooner that we,
46:55
figure out how AI impacts us and embrace it and figure out how to do our work,
47:01
I think that is a job that I have and OSHR has is to help our workforce understand it,
47:08
and to help make it work for state employees versus replacing state employees with it. So I...
47:16
I think it's a tool, and that's how I'm approaching it. Okay,
47:19
great. Not a replacement. So I'm still pursuing the AI episode of the podcast.
47:24
Absolutely. I can find somebody to come on. Yeah. So, but yeah,
47:27
thanks for that answer. And thanks for joining us, too, and coming. I know you've got to go.
47:31
Absolutely. And listen, to have that kind of response rate on a survey means
47:34
that the employees trust you.
47:36
That's a big deal. So congratulations on that. I appreciate it.
47:39
Thank you for all that you've done to help us get in the, you know,
47:43
a lot's happened in a year and a half.
47:45
And so we have lots of work to do.
47:48
I know this. I'm serious about it. But we couldn't be where we are without the
47:52
support. And I think that's critical.