Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 176:7-8. Interest: Renting, Leasing, Bartering, and Hiring Employees or Contractors; Prepaid Subscriptions, Tuition, Camps…

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Yoreh De’ah 176:7-8. Interest: Renting, Leasing, Bartering, and Hiring Employees or Contractors; Prepaid Subscriptions, Tuition, Camps… · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:02
  OK, so good morning. We are continuing helpless
• 0:07
  service. We are on cof EIN vog.
• 0:12
  OK, see if Zayn asur Lamar ladam assemi malaka ayom sheshava
• 0:22
  dinar. It's to make an arrangement
• 0:27
  where your trading services which has a value, you know
• 0:34
  shekel dollar value to it and one person is worth more than
• 0:41
  the other and that person is being done first.
• 0:45
  So the person is getting a better deal by waiting.
• 0:51
  So that could all that's also a problem of ribis.
• 0:54
  OK, ribis or abundant, but it's also, it's also, it's also, it's
• 0:58
  also Azer darabana. Let's go to Khet Hasogher ET
• 1:03
  APOL biomotah choref lasat inmo biomot hakais, the dinar liom.
• 1:10
  Basically, you want to hire a worker for you and you decide
• 1:16
  when he's going to work. It's not a Kablan contractor.
• 1:19
  You give him a job and you're paying him for the job and he
• 1:22
  can start it and finish it whenever he feels like.
• 1:25
  We we all know that they all finish whenever they feel like.
• 1:28
  But the point is he can, for our purposes of Rivas, he can start
• 1:32
  whenever he wants. So it's in his control.
• 1:34
  So that's not what we're talking about.
• 1:36
  We're talking about you hire a worker and let's say in the
• 1:42
  winter, we'll just, we'll just come up with, I don't know, 50
• 1:47
  shekel an hour, whatever it's worth.
• 1:50
  And then, but in the summer they charge, it's hotter and so they
• 1:54
  charge or it's, it's busier. So they're going to charge as
• 1:57
  more demand. So they're going to charge 70
• 1:59
  shackle an hour. So you're paying him in the
• 2:02
  winter, winter prices, but he's not going to work for you.
• 2:06
  You you make a deal with him, you pay him now and for today's
• 2:11
  rate, you know, rate the winter rate, but he's not going to
• 2:14
  start working for you until the summer.
• 2:17
  So he basically he's giving you a big discount by getting paid
• 2:22
  in advance. He's going to live off of your
• 2:24
  money, invest your money, whatever it is, he's going to
• 2:26
  use your money. And so this is a form of of
• 2:30
  Rivas. OK, so again, so it's the the
• 2:40
  rages would be a dinar predict Umak Timo Sakharo Miata was Karl
• 2:45
  shabbi amata kaitz sella liyom. Now really in the in the kaitz,
• 2:49
  it's going to be worth the sella, but only paying
• 2:52
  Ahmadinar. It's asar abuim Amar loy SE MI
• 2:56
  mahayom. But if you tell him, listen,
• 2:59
  work for me for a day or a few days, whatever it is, start
• 3:02
  working for me right now, but then stop working for three
• 3:07
  months and then pick it up when it gets the better weather.
• 3:10
  You know I don't want you to work in the rain anyway.
• 3:13
  It's not as productive for me or I'm busy.
• 3:15
  I don't want you to my house right now.
• 3:16
  Whatever it is then it's fine. Because he started to work
• 3:21
  Mayhha Yong. And so therefore we look at it
• 3:24
  as he's starting to pay now and it's not Ribis.
• 3:29
  Ribis is always when it's a prepayment, he's not used, he's
• 3:33
  just using the money and he's not getting anything in return
• 3:36
  right away and he's it's for waiting.
• 3:39
  So then the oddsman Plonia badinar Bayon and so you just
• 3:46
  make him start working for right now and he's just going to pay.
• 3:48
  Adinar Leo mutter the the whole point is Kevan Shamakila Sodimo
• 3:53
  Miata Eno Nira can notel Scaramotov since he's starting
• 4:00
  to pay right now. We don't look at it as if right.
• 4:07
  We're not looking at as a prepayment because he's starting
• 4:10
  to get paid right now for working right now.
• 4:13
  It's true he's going to take a break and he's going to finish
• 4:15
  off the days later. But that's not that's not a
• 4:17
  problem. You're paying him now.
• 4:22
  You are, you're right. Most of the wages are a
• 4:24
  prepayment with at a discount. That's correct.
• 4:28
  But since the whole thing is Dharabanam and since it's havlah
• 4:33
  is not the right word for it, but the whole thing is being
• 4:35
  done from the beginning. We all look at it as it's we
• 4:39
  don't look at that as halva and a little bit of his.
• 4:42
  You know, I don't want to use the word arbitrary, but it's the
• 4:45
  way Hazal decided for a lot of it when they decided it looks
• 4:50
  like ribas and when it doesn't look like ribas.
• 4:53
  So that really it's more for when it looks like and when it
• 4:56
  doesn't look so much like. That's how they generally the
• 5:00
  guiding. Just a couple of interesting
• 5:03
  things real quick before we move on because it's related to this
• 5:06
  is it's I'll just share a little bit.
• 5:10
  It's basically the same thing wherever you look, but and
• 5:14
  there's different opinions on the matter.
• 5:15
  But as far as early birds specials or deals.
• 5:19
  So I'll read a little bit from printed from Smech Azhar and
• 5:25
  some of it is from Rabi Reisman's book on the laws of
• 5:29
  Ribis. So basically if a person is
• 5:35
  making a purchase and he's able to, in general, when it comes to
• 5:39
  pre main here, ours, ours, TF is really talking about services.
• 5:45
  So it's a little bit different, a little bit similar.
• 5:47
  So we'll just discuss a little bit together.
• 5:49
  If a person is making in a purchase immediately and he's
• 5:53
  getting the item immediately, he's allowed to give you a
• 5:58
  discount. That's not a problem.
• 6:00
  If you go to a store and you're buying something and you're
• 6:03
  getting it right now, you're allowed to pay a discount for
• 6:05
  it. That's your negotiated rate.
• 6:07
  There's no Ribis. Ribis is if you prepaid and
• 6:11
  there's a waiting period and then the person's benefiting
• 6:15
  while he's holding on to your money when you're paying and
• 6:19
  getting the object immediately, the concept of Ribis doesn't
• 6:23
  begin. There's there's no loan.
• 6:25
  That's that's so that's not even a problem.
• 6:28
  And OK, so that's for sure not an issue.
• 6:33
  The whole concept that we learned of Agarnatar.
• 6:37
  So the Gumar Baba at Siya Samak Gumar of Nachman Agarnatar, it's
• 6:41
  all a dinder of Banan. That's with the that's where the
• 6:44
  earlier bird discounts become into a problem because you're
• 6:48
  not then you're you're you're there's a time period until
• 6:53
  you're, you're gaining. So just this is more from
• 6:56
  earlier what we learned when it's an item.
• 7:02
  So we learned if it's Yashlo, if the seller has the product in
• 7:08
  stock and doesn't specifically state that there's two prices, a
• 7:13
  lower and a higher based on when you pay, that's one Hector of
• 7:17
  Yashlo. This is pretty much a review
• 7:19
  from earlier. And another Kula is ILO Yatsa
• 7:24
  Hashar. There's no specific price to it.
• 7:29
  If it's if, if in the stores there's no price whatsoever or
• 7:35
  you're getting something custom ordered.
• 7:37
  So then there's Loyutsa Shar and there's no specific market and
• 7:42
  then we don't look at it as a prepayment and that's another
• 7:46
  time where it's it's mother. OK, so that's one principle.
• 7:51
  And then here this is an an RC we just learned any time it's
• 7:56
  services you're getting prepaid for services or for for or
• 8:01
  hiring somebody. So if the worker begins
• 8:04
  immediately, so that's what we just saw over here.
• 8:07
  Then we it doesn't look again. The whole dense is Darabanon and
• 8:11
  then it doesn't look so much like Ribis.
• 8:13
  And therefore, since it's getting paid immediately, then
• 8:16
  at least for part of it, then it's mother in quotes from
• 8:21
  Taurus Ribis that you can even allow to verbalize you're
• 8:27
  getting a discounted price. I don't know if everyone agrees
• 8:31
  because anyways, but his point is it's 100% much there if
• 8:35
  you're starting to work immediately.
• 8:37
  So then you don't have to worry about like, you know, the
• 8:41
  concept of Nefarish specifying the two different prices.
• 8:44
  So that's a problem then. OK, so then you do have to if
• 8:49
  it's if you are getting paid prepaid, but you're relying on
• 8:55
  the two Kulas, you can't be a Matharish that Yeh Shah, then
• 8:59
  you can't specify. But when you're actually getting
• 9:02
  the item or actually getting the services immediately.
• 9:05
  So then that's when he says you're allowed to actually
• 9:09
  specify and that's permitted all pretty much the same.
• 9:16
  So they both have examples about appliances or furniture.
• 9:22
  So they say generally it's permitted.
• 9:24
  First of all, if it's delivered immediately, then it's not a
• 9:27
  problem obviously. But if as long as it's.
• 9:30
  But if you're paying in advance for a discount and you're not
• 9:33
  going to get it till later if it's in stock and you don't
• 9:36
  specify the discount, like the seller can just go up to you and
• 9:40
  say, listen, let me sell it to you for this price.
• 9:42
  But he doesn't tell you there's two prices or there's no set
• 9:46
  market price and you don't specify that there's I'm giving
• 9:49
  it to you for less If you prepaid me that you can't, you
• 9:53
  can't human varnish. But the seller could know that
• 9:55
  there's that there's two prices. That's with furniture, OK.
• 10:02
  And usually OK. I don't know.
• 10:04
  He writes in with furnace, most appliances, there is not a given
• 10:08
  market price. I'm not sure if everyone would
• 10:11
  agree to that, but OK, here an interesting question.
• 10:17
  Schools, camps, pay stock programs, right?
• 10:21
  Tuition. We said camps.
• 10:23
  What else? Yeah.
• 10:25
  So is that OK? Can you prepaid for your your
• 10:30
  program or your tuition in advance?
• 10:33
  So, so often. So one thing that people say is
• 10:38
  you can here let me where do we where should we start?
• 10:47
  Sometimes some people will recommend using a heteriska,
• 10:50
  which we haven't discussed yet. We'll get to that soon to avoid
• 10:55
  the problem. Just off the bat, Remotion has a
• 10:59
  huge cooler that many rely on. Many disagree with is the
• 11:05
  concept of corporations. So he says a corporation is
• 11:13
  there's never a problem when I see if I have it right, when the
• 11:17
  corporation is paying, when the corporation is benefiting or
• 11:24
  getting the RIBIS. Ribis doesn't apply to the
• 11:27
  corporation. So here the corporation, if it's
• 11:32
  a corporation, the business could be a corporation, a
• 11:35
  school, we might consider a corporation, whatever it is, or
• 11:38
  the camp program or the pay stock program, they're getting
• 11:41
  the money in advance. They're the ones who are
• 11:44
  benefiting. So it's OK to prepaid to a
• 11:47
  corporation because they're the ones who are, they're the ones
• 11:52
  who are benefiting from the rivets per SE.
• 11:54
  Obviously you're getting a discount, not a backyard
• 11:56
  babysitter. Then that would not apply to A
• 12:00
  to a yeah, a backyard babysitter, obviously.
• 12:09
  OK, so that's another possible Kula that so OK, so when could
• 12:16
  that apply? Again, everyone's there's
• 12:18
  different opinions on the matter.
• 12:20
  Generally speaking, you could speak to anyone who runs these
• 12:23
  programs. They didn't wake up on July 1st
• 12:27
  and start your summer program or the pay stock program didn't
• 12:31
  start April whatever. It started three months, six
• 12:34
  months or 12 months in advance. So they're working already in
• 12:39
  advance. So that's another reason why it
• 12:43
  may be permitted. And Smita's cover said he called
• 12:46
  Mushbaka magazine and he said that they use a heteriska, not
• 12:51
  that you need to, but they use, they have a heteriska.
• 12:54
  Generally it's it should be known from both sides, but many
• 13:00
  say it doesn't have to be. So that could work.
• 13:05
  Let's see that subscriptions, correct?
• 13:08
  So let's get to some newspaper, magazine subscriptions, things
• 13:12
  like that. So one of, well, let me pretty
• 13:15
  much say something yesterday involved, right?
• 13:20
  So then let's say by magazines. So one that could be a problem.
• 13:25
  Magazines, do you consider it a service or do you consider it an
• 13:29
  item? So many consider it an item,
• 13:32
  merchandise verse and not a service.
• 13:35
  So that may so that may not apply is you're actually getting
• 13:39
  a physical item into your home. It's true, they're preparing for
• 13:43
  it, but you're not necessarily hiring a service.
• 13:46
  You're more getting they worked for it behind the scenes, but
• 13:49
  you're getting the item. So, so, OK, one easy way to
• 13:55
  solve the problem is even when you make a, when you, when you
• 13:59
  agree to pay for a subscription, if they bill you the whole year
• 14:05
  in advance. So then it's a question if they
• 14:09
  bill you monthly that you have, you're locked in rate because
• 14:12
  you're locked in for the whole year.
• 14:14
  So you're getting a discount, but they're only billing you
• 14:17
  every month. So the question of of a loan
• 14:21
  never starts 'cause when you're getting your magazine, you're
• 14:24
  paying magazine and paying it's all at the same time.
• 14:29
  So if it's so then that's not a problem.
• 14:32
  You can have a discounted fee for it.
• 14:35
  They're locked in. OK.
• 14:38
  Is there another pre publication of the safer.
• 14:45
  So some point out there's some risk involved and that so that
• 14:51
  so it's like an investment, but it is questionable.
• 14:56
  The Reisman strongly. I don't know if I should use the
• 14:59
  word strongly or not, but he definitely recommends or says 1
• 15:03
  should not do that to avoid doing that.
• 15:06
  Obviously we're talking about purchasing from a Jew, but if
• 15:10
  it's again, it might be a corporation, your publisher.
• 15:14
  So then you have a motion to rely on.
• 15:16
  But it it is so that that is definitely a an area of Maclocas
• 15:21
  on the on that one. Let's see now there is one other
• 15:30
  opinion to allow a magazine. It's a little bit of a a little
• 15:33
  bit of a questionable. Not everyone agrees.
• 15:36
  But he says the magazine is not necessarily using your money.
• 15:41
  It's gonna it's not exactly the same as our case that we had
• 15:43
  yesterday about borrowing money to show with it.
• 15:46
  They're not necessarily want to prescript your subscription and
• 15:50
  your your money in advance because they need your money and
• 15:53
  now they're going to use it. They need it again, it can help
• 15:58
  them knowing how much to print, but part of the main reason why
• 16:02
  they they want a subscription, they they make most of their
• 16:06
  money not from your subscription.
• 16:08
  They make most of their money from their advertisers and they
• 16:11
  could only go to their advertisers and ask for money
• 16:14
  based on how big their subscription is.
• 16:17
  So it's it is questionable because at the same time you are
• 16:21
  taking their money and you're not holding, you're not
• 16:24
  returning those same coins back. So it's true your, your your
• 16:28
  motive might not be to invest their money.
• 16:30
  It's for an advertisement. So whatever, that's a debate in
• 16:33
  the post. Q If that counts as a reason for
• 16:37
  it to be permitted. A.
• 16:39
  Lot of times an early bird's special is not because you know
• 16:42
  the extra week is going to make a difference in terms of of oh
• 16:45
  darn, not that I now have, you know, another $100 for another.
• 16:48
  Week. Oh, I think so much of that.
• 16:50
  That's not the motivation, it's more to make sure that they have
• 16:54
  enough people to hold the class. Right.
• 16:56
  So that's that's why it might be OK, but at the same time you're
• 17:01
  still holding on to the money. So anyways, that's it's a
• 17:06
  questionable if that's OK. OK, sometimes subscriptions are
• 17:14
  used immediately. So again, if you get the first
• 17:17
  subscription and you get it right away, that might also
• 17:20
  count because you're getting one of the items immediately.
• 17:25
  So that might be OK From music you're paying for 24/6 or
• 17:30
  Spotify or whatever for the year from day one you're using their
• 17:34
  item. So it's that's also why it might
• 17:37
  be OK If you have any other interesting, let's see real
• 17:45
  quick. And the other good examples
• 17:49
  Mikovos and swimming pools or athletic hubs you mentioned, is
• 17:53
  that OK? I don't know.
• 17:56
  So he says yeah, that's a form of rental.
• 17:59
  And so since you're renting and you can use it immediately,
• 18:02
  that's also permitted even. The fact that there's.
• 18:06
  Two different. Processes yearly subscription.
• 18:08
  Are not the subscription, Yeah, So he says that's not a problem
• 18:14
  because. Of yearly you're stocked for the
• 18:16
  year and a month. You can, yeah, but the point is
• 18:20
  when it comes to rental you're and you're getting benefits from
• 18:24
  day one already. It doesn't look like a halava.
• 18:27
  It's only their abundance for sure and it doesn't look like so
• 18:30
  they wouldn't be goes on in that case.
• 18:38
  One other question, I'll just point out discounts, yeah, on on
• 18:44
  pre public publication prices from Rabi Reisman.
• 18:47
  I'll just get different opinions, but he writes these
• 18:50
  offers of pre publication generally constitutes Ribis and
• 18:56
  should be avoided. But but then you point it on the
• 18:59
  bottom that there's some risk and then if there is risk then
• 19:02
  it's OK. Discounts for multiple rides.
• 19:06
  This will be the last example we'll mention.
• 19:10
  Yeah, that just repeats. So he writes over here that it
• 19:15
  could be a problem of your multiple rides, but it's
• 19:23
  services if you're getting, if you're using the first one right
• 19:27
  away, it should be OK, right? That's what seems like.
• 19:31
  But if you're not getting the services right away, then that
• 19:35
  seems to be a problem, right? He writes many posts can permit
• 19:39
  it. And again, I'm not sure which
• 19:41
  cases you're referring to, if you have to wait for the first
• 19:43
  time or not. They explain that these
• 19:45
  discounts are generally offered because it's a more efficient
• 19:48
  manner of running the business and not because of advance
• 19:51
  payment. There.
• 19:53
  It's again, questionable. All right, that's the discounts
• 19:57
  not being offered for the loan. And so therefore it's not a
• 20:00
  problem, but you're getting a loan, OK.
• 20:08
  I don't know. OK, whatever.
• 20:11
  Sorry to hear on some of these topics and different opinions.
• 20:14
  Fine, let's should we start the first olive stop?
• 20:20
  That's laws of Ribbis or Halehas.
• 20:23
  You saw Robert Reisman. Fine, so we will.
• 20:26
  I think that pretty much closes that.
• 20:29
  Next we're going to do KUF I in Zion.
• 20:31
  They'll also give Iska what that is and which is the whole
• 20:36
  beginning of Hector Iska final stop.