Latest / NO FILTER / Mother of two allegedly killed and dumped in the garbage by cheating ex-boyfriend(MP3_160K)

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Mother of two allegedly killed and dumped in the garbage by cheating ex-boyfriend(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: A word of warning.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: This podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and includes some
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: young listeners or other folks who may find it disturbing. Hello,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: and welcome to True Crime to use the podcast covering
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: high profile and under the radar cases from across the country.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Every week.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Anna Garcia. Our case this week? How
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: much tragedy can one family endure? A father murdered and
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: now his daughter, a mother of two, is missing and
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: police believe that she too was murdered, even though her
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: body hasn't been found yet. The two murders are not connected,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: but the victims are, and this is a lot of tragedy.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Now justice hangs in the balance. Her ex boyfriend has
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: been charged with killing her, but is there enough evidence
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: to go forward with a trial. A judge is deciding
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: that right now. We are recording this on Friday, September
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: nineteenth of twenty twenty five. Our guest today is doctor
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Tracy Tambora, a professor of criminal justice at the University
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: of New Haven in Connecticut and a nationally recognize expert
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: on domestic violence and the.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Effects of the criminal justice system.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Tracy is also a dear friend of the show, a
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: friend of mine.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Tracy, welcome back.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me Anna, I'm happy
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: to be here.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: For those of you who follow us very carefully, you
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: all knew that right around springtime that Tracy was headed
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to Italy for the summer to work on a new
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: law and victims' rights, which is very exciting and we
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: can't wait to hear about that. But we will talk
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: about that at the end of the episode.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Anna, sure, just.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing the work that you do an international expert.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: We have on the podcast today.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: People, I'm trying, I'm trying to get the word out there.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: You are all right, Well, this case is really one
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: that lends itself to your expertise. We are asking here
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: what happened to a mother of two from Warren, Michigan
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: who appears she's just like disappeared. She disappeared right after
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: New Year's and her body has not been found. Police
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: believed that she has been murdered. She is thirty year
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: old Ashley Elkins, presumed dead, presumed murdered. Her ex boyfriend,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: thirty three year old DeAndre Booker is charged with first
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: degree murder in Ashley's death.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Now, this is a case that we have.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Been following, not only on True Crime News the podcast,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: but on True Crime News the show. DeAndre says that
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: he's innocent. He's been very uncooperative in a recent court hearing,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: which was to decide whether there was enough evidence to
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: go forward. Now, Tracy, the thing about this case is
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: based on.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: What the family has told us.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: While they say there were some red flags that DeAndre
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: seemed to be wonderful to the family, really supportive to
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: individuals in the family, and everything seemed to be going
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: okay until he became more possessive the more Ashley was
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: working on her home salon and getting your business going.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: But still family members have said that she never felt
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: threatened by him. Sure, so, is this doesn't fall into
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: a classic domestic violence case, does it?
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: Well?
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: The information we have, right, and I think the information
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: we have is quite limited, And I just want to
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: let your audience know I've never interviewed the family. I
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: don't have access to the court files. So what I'm
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: going on is news reports that show some patterns and
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: trends that I'm familiar with, and then some patterns and
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: trends that are you know, maybe not fitting the bill.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: One of the patterns that you know it has been
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: studied is we look at risk factors and domestic violence.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if you or your audience has
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: ever looked at this wheel. It's called a power and
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: control wheel. Sometimes I should actually bring it up because
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: I think your audience, yeah, would make it really interesting.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: For about forty years, experts in domestic viol and have
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: looked at categories of types of abuse and try to
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: understand them. So your audience is going to be really
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: familiar with the term gas lighting for instance, right, This
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: is a form of emotional abuse in which the victim
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: is toyed with and their mental health and their memory.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: These are things that the perpetrator is putting into question
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: to make them think they're crazy. One of the ones
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: that we have found that is not just in this
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: power control will, but that we've studied for a long
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: time is things like isolation connected to career and so
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: individuals after they have a baby and they're getting back
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: into the workforce or at a certain point in the marriage,
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: if they want their career to be more significant, you know,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: and then the perpetrator the abusive partner feels intimidated and threatened,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: like his role or her role. Sometimes we have female
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: perpetrators is threatened. They're no longer the center of the universe.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: So when I read that one sentence, I said, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: that's an indicator. But then there were other factors that
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: he's very helpful to the family. He prioritizes the family's
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: emotional needs in times of crisis. These things are not
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: typical for portrator of domestic violence that would escalate to
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: lethality behavior. So you know, you have a couple of
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: things going on in the case that are quite confusing
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: to me. There's a few red flags. As you say,
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: then there's other behaviors that don't seem to fit the
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: pattern of an abusive relationship.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: That's so fascinating.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: I really at some point I would love it if
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: you would bring in your wheel and we had a
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: greater discussion, because you know, the purpose, at least for
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: me from my perspective, about sharing and talking about these
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: cases is for all of us to have a better
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: understanding not only about our judicial system, but also as
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: an education that you know, if red flags starts showing
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: up in your life, you need.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: To really be careful.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: So let's look at the history of this couple to
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: perhaps better understand what was going on here. As things
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: were unraveling, Ashley met DeAndre on Facebook. A couple got
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: together sometime in twenty twenty three. Their relationship seemed loving
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: based on what the family has said. He was kind
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: to her, her children, and her family. These are the
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: things that we want in a partner. Now, Ashley was
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: the light of the family and Ashley's mother, Moniqua describes
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Ashley this way, just a joy.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: You know, she came in the room everyby smile as
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: she's here. You know, she just brought just joy in
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: our family.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: As I said, we've covered this case before, but now
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: there are some huge developments which police have presented more
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: evidence that they say points toward DeAndre being the killer
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: in this case. Now, in April of twenty twenty four,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: the Elkins family suffered an immense, immense tragedy. That's when
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Ashley's father, Jean Robinson, who was fifty one at the time,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: was murdered in Detroit. That is devastating to a family
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: and DeAndre, we understand, stepped up went to the family
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: to identify the body to be there for all these
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: really difficult times after the incident. You know, the family
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: felt and said, we thought he was one of us
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: because of how he conducted himself within the greater family unit.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So Ashley was trying to get herself together here. She
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: went to beauty school.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Then she decides to open up per salon in her.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Own home so she could actually work from home and
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: spend more time with her children.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: She has a special needs child.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: But behind the scenes, it was at this time again
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Tracy when didn't like the fact that she was working
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: from home because there were men coming into the home.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: He wanted her to get a chair to salon.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, and again, you know, having never interviewed either
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: one of them, I can't speak to what they were thinking.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: I can't speak to the dynamics, but I can kind
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: of pull the lens back a little bit and just
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: say that in my experience working with hundreds of victims
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: over the years, you know, stories vary, and this is
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: I think what we don't like in the general public
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: when there is too much gray. We like it black
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: and white. You're either the killer or you're the victim. Right,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: You're either the bad guy or the good guy. So
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know if there was some disagreement that is
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: indicative of possessiveness, maybe some relationship dysfunction and distrust that
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: you might see in you know, sixty percent of relationships
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: out there, some sort of discord, right, or did it
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: cross the line into what we would look at as
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: controlling behavior, the attempt to control her financial ability, financial wellbeing,
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: and emotional wellbeing. So I could see this, I could
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: see this particular piece of information going either way. This
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: could be indicative of you know, dysfunctional, maybe emotionally immature
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: relationship in which there is an established trust, or there's
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: layers that we don't understand quite or it could be
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: a sign a red flag for domestic violence in that
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: there is ongoing attempts at control and manipulation.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And we want to be clear that so far, prosecutors
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: have not presented any evidence as far as police reports
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: call to nine one one about domestic violence. Also, the
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: family has shared that Ashley never said to them I
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: feel threatened, I feel unsafe. Again, that doesn't mean that
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: this wasn't a dynamic. I just want to be clear
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: here about what we have available in the public record.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So there is Deandre's apparent jealousy. But there is another
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: side to what's going on here, because then sometime in
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: the fall of twenty twenty four, Ashley found some text
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: messages on Deandre's phone with some other women, and that
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: apparently is what led to the breakup.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, interesting enough when I was in the field,
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: So let me make it clear. I haven't worked directly
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: with victims in the eighteen years that I've been a
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: university professor, except for some interviews for research projects. But
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: when in my previous life as a victim's advocate, when
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I did work direct service, often the impetus for the
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: breakup was infidelity, and I would have clients routinely telling me,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: you know, it's one thing he pushes and shoves me,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: you know in the house. It's another. You know, it's
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: one thing that he's calling me all sorts of terrible names,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: that he's jealous and possessive, but the fact that he
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: is unfaithful is humiliating and degrading. And this is the
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: breaking point for me. And I remember when I first
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: started in the field as a young twenty year old,
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: you know, victim's advocate, I thought that it was going
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: to be the physical abuse. Sometimes it was, especially if
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: the physical abuse was life threatening. But but I would
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: say in the majority of the cases that I worked with,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: the type of emotional abuse, betrayal, whatever you want to
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: use to categorize this, here was the infidelity. It was
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: really painful to accept because of the level of humiliation
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: often associated with it. Other people knew they were in
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: the same community, so it wasn't just a betrayal of
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: relationship trust, but it was really an act of degradation
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: and humiliation. So I could see this. This is really
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: clear to me as yeah, this is a reason to
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: end the relationship. If there were also other signs of
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: controlling behavior.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That's fascinating because I would think that if you were
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: in a physically abusive relationship and you know people around
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: you at work, your family, at church, can see the bruises,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: the marks on your neck, that I would think that
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: is the ultimate humiliation.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I think a reasonable person thinks this.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: But keep in mind a lot of at least in
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: my experience, I worked in large cities and so violence
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: levels were elevated, So there was and I have written
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: about this, there was some expectation for violence, some acceptance
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: of violence in a very unfortunate, unhealthy way. But what
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: was most publicly humiliating was the hanging around with other women.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: The post nowadays, in more modern times, right the posts,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: the posting on Instagram of a photo or liking someone else.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: These are things that received more public attention, believe it
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: or not. And a lot of my clients were able
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: to hide the bruises, they were able to hide the
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: physical abuse, but they weren't as easily capable of hiding
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: this infidelity. That was in particular in communities where people
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: really know each other.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Well, relationships are so complicated, they really are so complicated,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: and you know, no one can ever know what really
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: goes on between two people other than those two people.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Now, Ashley was, you know, pretty upset, and not only
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: did she cut it off with DeAndre, she cut off
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: all communication. So there was incident right before her disappearance
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: which could be something, could be nothing, but it's it's
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: something that has to be looked at. So now this
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: is told by Ashley's sister Alexis, who was present when
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: this happened. She was in Ashley's home. So DeAndre apparently
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: used a fake name to book an appointment with Ashley
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: at her salon right, and he did it through her website,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: and he showed up at the home on New Year's Eve,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: December thirty first, just stays before her disappearance.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: And they wouldn't let him in.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Now, I have to say I have seen this a
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: lot where a frustrated partner, this is in a criminal case.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I've seen this before where they're so frustrated that they
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: need to talk to the other person and they will
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: go to all lengths like I've seen them even kidnap
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: their former partner for the sole purpose of getting them
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: to listen to them. I know that doesn't make any sense,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: but I've seen this. So I'm looking at this now.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: On the other side, here from Deandre's point of view,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: he's trying to get in touch with her.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: He feels like he's been blocked.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: So he's like, Okay, I'm going to pretend to be
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: someone else.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to book an appointment. She's gonna let me
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: in and I'll have my say. But they wouldn't open
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the door.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is probably infuriating to him because again, whether
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: he is an official perpetrator of domestic violence and I
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: would need to talk to him about his and look
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: at other patterns of coercive control. Or he is a
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: emotionally immature individual that was in a dysfunctional relationship. Either way,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: this individual is behaving in a manner, in a very selfish,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: entitled manner, and unaware obviously that or maybe not obviously.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: This is the complication here that she wants to cut
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: off all communications because just because she's making it obvious
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: from her point doesn't mean he's receiving it. This is
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: something we know from stalking research quite a bit. The
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: action of the victim is even though to somebody like
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: you know me and you Anna, we think, oh, it's
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: very clear this the victim wants nothing to do with
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: this perpetrator. The perpetrator's ability to receive an interpret information
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: is not rational, It is not clear, It is not reasonable.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: And this is why we get something ranging from screaming
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: matches into the street, you know, to murders because the individual,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: the perpetrator of violence doesn't have an ability to regulate
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: their emotions.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: That's fascinating and I do get that part of because.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: It's basic to communication.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I tell you something, I think it's a declarative statement
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and fairly clear, but yet you don't seem to understand me.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, this happens every day, and you know, constantly
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: in communication. So now you add a charged relationship where
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: there's a dispute and emotions, it's even harder to be heard.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, that is just a basic problem of communication
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: that human beings have, this misunderstanding part of it. I
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: do want you to hear from Alexis.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: This is Ashley's sister who was there that day, so
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: you can hear it from her perspective. Let's play the clip.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: She booked an appointment on her website and I was
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: in her room laying down, and she came in and
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: she showed me her phone, and I mean we were
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: kind of just laughing about it, like why would he
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: book an appointment on your website? And then we heard
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: a knock at the door later that day, at the
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: front door, and she said, always him.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: So DeAndre is not let into the apartment, as we
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: are told by Ashley's sister.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Now we're moving on.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: It's past New Year's now it's January tewod and Ashley
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: is out, we're told running Errand's getting supplies at the
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: beauty store for her Salon, And on that day, on
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: the second, Ashley's mother text her and says, I want
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: to tell you about a dream I had. I had
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: a dream about your car being stolen, and I just
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: need to talk to you about it. And it's here's
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: the For those of you that are like ooh, her
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: car with her disappearances, later found somewhere else, so one
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: could make the argument that her car was the whole thing.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Is just gives me chills, right, So the mother needs
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to talk to her daughter and to share with her
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: this dream. And when she puts most of it in
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: a text message, the response from Ashley's cell phone m h,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, response from the cell phone because the mother
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't think that this was Ashley, the response was awe man, Okay. Now,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: I women and men do speak differently.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Sure, especially for parents, right, especially to our mom a
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: saying I'm worried about you.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about you, and you're a mom yourself. Would
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you say to your mother, aw man, No, no, no.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I always say that you know, the solving of crimes
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and the analysis of a crime, most.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Of it is just common sense logic. I agree, I agree,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: And look.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: We don't know who wrote that text message. That does
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: not sound to me like the response of a woman
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: to her mother over a concern.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Aw man, even if you had sometimes my kids. Because
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I'm a criminologist, I'll be like, now think about this
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: when you go. You know, I'm texting, remember this, look
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: at this, and they will say, thanks, Mom, got it
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: enough right, So there is still some sort of sweetness
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: in the But the awe man is a strange response.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know her, but it is a strange response
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: to your mom was concerned about you.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds more male than female, just just my
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: analysis of it. So the mom is like, this does
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: not sound like my daughter. Now I'm really worried because
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: this is so bizarre and I've had a bad dream.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So she tries face timing her and Ashley doesn't accept
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: the FaceTime multiple times. Now she knows something is wrong.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Now she knows something is wrong. So ultimately the family
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: reports her missing and the search began officially the next
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: day on January third. Based on Ashley's phone location, the
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: last shared a dress was at Deandre's house before the
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: phone was either turned off or destroyed.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's suspicious.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Police think that suspicious, and they go to Deandre's house,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: they want to talk to him. Ultimately there will be
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: multiple search warrants. Now here's the really confusing part of
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: this for me. So apparently apparently Ashley went to Deandre's house.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Family members speculate it's possible she may have gone to
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: him to help with some financial situations she may have
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: been having.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, now here's the thing.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: If you close the door to the man and we
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: don't know exactly what was said in there, you close
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: the door to the man who's trying to talk to you,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: and then like a day or two later, you're trying
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: to go to his apartment, perhaps willingly or may be lured,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: we don't know, to discuss money.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Ooh, that's really complicated.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, what do we know here? She ended
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: the relationship, she blocked him, the sister doesn't let her
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: in two days later. Is it possible that in two days,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: you know, you've said it, human behavior is complicated, that
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: she willingly went there because she needed some assistance, sure,
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: or as you said, was she learned there? You know
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: the problem with this case is there's just enough information
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: to make him DeAndre as the murders aspect very plausible,
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: but just at the macro level, looking at data, looking
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: at the fact that we know that about fifty percent
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: of women who are killed or killed by a car
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: and or past intimate partner a few red flags with
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: intimate partner violence. Right, So there's just enough information at like, ah,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: the statistical data is lining up, but at the individual,
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: at the actual case level, it is still so ambiguous.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: The right like, there's a blood drop, there's a maybe
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: maybe they saw each other maybe, right, Like, there's just
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: so much at the actual case level questions here.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And that is why a judge now has taken a
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: few weeks.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: To analyze everything that's been presented to figure out if
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: there is enough evidence here for this to go forward
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: to a murder trial. And that's what a preliminary hearing is.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: And some of you are like, well, some cases have them,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: in some cases don't. The rule of thumb is, you know,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: prosecutors generally have two avenues to get to trial. One
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: they ask for a grand jury indictment. If they get
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the grand jury indictment after presenting evidence, then it heads
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: towards trial. Other prosecutors go the preliminary hearing route. That
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: is when they present just enough evidence of why they
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: believe they have a strong case. And then the defense
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: attorney gets to argue before a judge and say, well
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: that's ridiculous, and I can prove that's not so, and
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: a judge decides is there enough to go forward to trial?
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: And sometimes that's done, you know, it's strategic. Sometimes you're
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: trying to show the other side, I got youa right
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: you want to do a deal, so, right, it's an
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: individual choice by prosecution office. So in this case, that's
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: where we are. But the judge has not ruled immediately.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Clearly the judge has taken a really long time here.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean obviously there's odd text messages I think
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: they had. He has some internet searches, right, or that
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: are strange and damning and damning.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Again you have some things that line up. We have
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: a missing woman. Guess who it's going to be in
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: more than fifty percent of the cases, right, we have
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: a little We have a few red flags that family
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: can coroborate about behavior that may seem possessive and controlling
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: to try to establish the domestic violence angle. But if
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I were the judge, I'd be quite worried myself that
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: you know what's going to actually happen at this preliminary hearing,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: because right now you don't have any slam dunk forensic evidence.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Right we don't know the manner of death right because
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: we've not been able to find her, which is you know,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: that's pure anguish for the family to not be able
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to find your loved one. And it's also possible that
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the prosecutors trying to pressure DeAndre if they believe that
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: he is as charged the man responsible for her death,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: to perhaps for some leniency if and sometimes we see this,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: families go forward, other families are like, no, throw the
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: book at them. So it's possible they're trying to figure
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: out and find Ashley's remains if they really believe that
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: DeAndrea is responsible. So there's a lot of things going
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: on here, and I find this case this is the
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: kind of case I want to share and talk with
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: everyone about because we have covered it before, and as
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: we get more information, the picture gets a little bit clearer.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: And I think that's very important to watch as a
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: case makes its way through a jurisdiction, because every jurisdiction
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: handles things slightly differently.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: So I want to get back now to.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: The information that has been released the police claim is evidence. Okay,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: So we are told that her last known location was
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Deandre's apartment. Apparently there is video, there's been testimony. Then
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Ashley is scene going into the place where DeAndre lives,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the apartment complex, and then they checked the videos for
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: three days and they never saw her leave.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Not good?
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: No, not good?
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Not good? Not good? Okay.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Now, investigators claim that they found evidence in the home
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: that includes potential blood in the bathroom, the possibility of
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: finding hair bullet fragments in the drain of the bathtub.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: They pulled all the drains out. There was testimony about this.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: There are his Google searches. So as this information started
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: to come to light for investigators, they thought, okay, what
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: else is going on here? So a few days after
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: her disappearance, this would be now January seventh, authorities find
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Ashley's car. Remember mom had that nightmare about the car
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: being stolen, and it's a few miles away from Deandre's apartment.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Well that could mean anything, really, Okay, So at this
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: point she's been missing with something like a week. Her
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: car has now been found. Police are you know, focusing
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: on DeAndre, and they end up charging him, but not
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: for murder. Police charge DeAndre with lying to police and
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: providing misleading information about Ashley's disappearance.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, that's.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Putting pressure on him. It also makes it possible for
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: them to get additional search warrants. So detectives claim that
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Ashley was killed in Deandre's apartment because of some kind
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: of confrontation. They say that they managed to track blood
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: evidence to a landfill in a neighboring county. However, they
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: haven't found her body, right, Okay, Now, the Google searches.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I always say, if anyone looked at my Google searches,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: because I'm a cry reporter, you would think I was diabolical.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Tracy defend me if anything happened.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, okay, But I get it too sometimes
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: when I'm looking up rate of sexual assault in this
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: age group, and so I'm like, is this really all
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I search for?
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, And that's and that is why on my social
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: media I like to put little animal noises and cute
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: little things right to balance the horror of, you know,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: of what I'm exposed to a lot through work. Okay,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: let's talk about the Google searches. According to police, They say,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: here's what he was looking for. Is blood traceable? Okay,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: how to delete your history?
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, well anyone can do that. That's I'm not too okay.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Now this is interesting.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Police say that he went on door dash and he
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: ordered not food, but supplies. Police say, oh my gosh,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: can you believe this? This is the list of what
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: he allegedly ordered on door dash bleach, latex gloves, and
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: garbage bags, items that were delivered at eleven forty six.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Pm on the day that Ashley was last seen.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is this is not looking good for
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: DeAndre at this point, right, feel like, you know the
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: one thing though, I had to keep reading this over
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: and over because I thought I was missing like a sentence.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: They haven't matched any blood at the scene to her
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: that they have revealed, correct, right, Well we don't know, right,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: So this is either this guy is like a mastermind
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: crime cover upper, if you know, it's a new term here,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: or he got really lucky, because it is bizarre that
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: not there wasn't really any blood at all.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: They have not presented that we're that.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: We're being presented with that is linking her, you know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: her blood.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: In that face her DNA. Right, we have not seen
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: the specific DNA evidence. They are making claims about blood.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Now here's the thing. Sometimes that is still being worked
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: in a lab. They may choose to reveal it at
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: pre trial, they may choose not to. Right, there's a
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: lot that we don't as a public know, even after
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: days of hearings.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: And of course, you know, I'm stuck on the blood
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: because they're saying there's blood evidence, but it's not connected
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: to her. Of course there's other modes of death. Right,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: he could have strangled her, he could have poisoned her,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: he could all of these things that wouldn't leave behind
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: trace evidence.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: So I just want to you know, yeah, thats up on.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: Their report of the the blood drops but not being hers.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: But there's other ways in which he could have been.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: They also haven't said that it wasn't hers, to say
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: it's blood, it's blood, it's blood.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: So the question is is it Ashley's?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: And we do not know the answer yet based on
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: days of testimony and hearings for the prelim.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, there's one other thing that this gets. It's controversial,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: so if you want to cut me out, But one
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: of the most important things that I remember learning because
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I actually took a course with Henry Lee, the forensic
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: scientist involved in the O. J. Simpson case. Is you know,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: sometimes you have forensic evidence and apartment and like OJ's
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: hair and fibers were on the blanket that was covering
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: and I always say her name wrong, Nicole Brown. Oh,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Nicole Brown Simpson, Nicole Brown Simpson, thank you. But OJ
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: lived there in the past. OJ frequent in the house.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: So this is also something I think the you know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: your listening audience has to understand is when we're talking
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: about crimes in which forensic evidence is a factor, which
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: is of course in a homicide, should be there friends evidence.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: We have to keep in mind that when people have
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: a right to be in a space, their forensic evidence
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: that they leave behind is going to be there, which
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: complicates it for the prosecutor because even if we did
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: find that the blood there is Ashley's, the hair there
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: is Ashley's, if they were in a romantic relationship and
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: she was spending time there, it wouldn't be strained. If
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: I were a defense attorney, I'd say, yes, so you
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: found her blood and hair because she stayed there. Sometimes,
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: you know, in the in the recent past, right, And
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: so it's where forensic evidence is found where you would
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: not expect it that it's much more useful. But this
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: is something the prosecutor is going to have to contend with,
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: is get when they have this forensic evidence, is it
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: indicative that Ashley was there or and or that there
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: was a murder? Those are two different things.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if she's stating him and she's staying over and
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: she's showering, yeah, her hair is going to be in
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: the drain, right.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: And you could if it's a small amount of blood, Yeah,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: she cut her finger, maybe she had her period. I mean,
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: there's so many factors, right, And so sometimes the presence
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: of this biological materials also presents a problem for a
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: prosecutor because a defense attorney can say, so, you prove
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: she was there, so you prove her blood is there.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: You didn't prove he killed her?
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Correct? Correct?
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And again I think if we read the tea leaves
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: here the judge taking a lot of time to figure
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: out the same thing and asking the same questions. Okay,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: well is her hair in the drain because she showered
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: there right, right?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: These are the complications of a case, and that's why
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I thought this one was really interesting. So now it's
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: January thirty first, so it's almost four weeks since Ashley
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: has disappeared. At this point, police up the charges. They
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: now charged DeAndre with premeditated murder, tampering with evidence, and
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: can and feeling the death of an individual. Remember, DeAndre
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: has maintained his innocence the entire time and still does
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: in this time period that he is now charged with
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: this part. As we've shared earlier, how the family had
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: warm feelings toward him. This is all very confusing. This
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: is very confusing for the family. It is very confusing
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: for this type community. And I mentioned that Ashley has
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: a son who has special needs. He's on the autism spectrum,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: and so what he is struggling with here is he
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: keeps asking when is mom coming home?
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: Right? That's very sad. Yeah, that was sad when I
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: read that.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: And that's really painful.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: It's hard enough to explain to a child, you know,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Mommy's not coming home, or is she We don't know
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: what happened to her. We don't know these are I mean,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: we can't have the answers in any way that makes
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: sense to us. How is a child going to be
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: able to process this. So this is incredibly upsetting to
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: the children who had a relationship with DeAndre.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: The whole thing is just so sad.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: So I'm sorry. I think it's could have been that
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: we've touched on many times before. You know, again, with
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: this whole we don't like gray people are all good
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: or all bad, but that's just not how they're actually interpreted.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: And for children it is really heartbreaking. And so if
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: they had a positive relationship, number one, we can't explain
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: what happened.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: To their mother.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: But then number two, to say to them, the person
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: who's accused of this, the person who's the most likely suspect,
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: is this individual that you had a positive relationship. This
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: is something I really wish that people would understand in
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: the general public. With any type of family violence, children
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: are so confused, and this is one of the facts
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: that I think creates this intergenerational legacy of family violence.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: Why it keeps going because you can love someone who
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: does really bad things, and then it makes it really
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: difficult for you to sort and process their behavior so
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: that you can actually move on and change things for
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: yourself or and your subsequent family members moving forward. This
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: is a problem for us in the United States with
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: family violence, Like people we love do terrible things and
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: we cannot sort our emotions, and what we end up
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: doing is just repeating the cycles because we can't place
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: our emotions in the all good or all bad box.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Oh that is so true, and we see that so
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: much in these cases. So let's get back to the
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: preliminary hearing which shows in August, because you know, there's
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: some video evidence that has been introduced to prosecutors say say.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Points to Dionne. But I think we could also ask
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the flip side, are you sure, because I'm not sure
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: is that him?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Which happens sometimes with security cameras.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I do want to do a.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Little bit more on the Google searches because more information
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: recently came out.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: This one is Okay, listen to these what to do
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: while on the run, I don't know, Okay, how how
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: to beat a polygraph test? Okay, okay, all right. Also
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Google search is about firing a weapon through a pillow.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: There we go, okay, and.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Listen to this one.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Can you track location when the phone is off? Remember
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: the last time that the phone was on and then
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: it went off?
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Right, right?
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: And that was it loss of communication. So again, damn it.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: It is damning.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It's all circumstantial. It's damning.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Now, just to get back to the timeline of when
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Ashley went to Deandre's apartment, Prosecutors say that there is
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: a video, as I mentioned a little earlier, that shows
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Ashley arriving. Apparently she arrived before eight am on January two.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: And remember the door dash delivery of cleaning supplies, latex
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: gloves and.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Garbage bags wasn't until like near midnight, right, it's an
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: awfully long time, Yes, yes, awfully long time.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Investigators say they have another video, and this is the
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: one that I think is very controversial.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: They say it's security camera that shows a man who
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: looks like DeAndre wearing clothes that apparently DeAndre has pushing
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: a cart toward a dumpster with what appeared to be
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: an arm hanging out of whatever was being pushed. Right.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: This was reported by the Detroit News that has been
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: covering this hearing, but police said on the stand without question,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: they could not positively identify DeAndre, although they claim that
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: they found clothes matching the description of what they see
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: in the video.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: What do you think of that.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Again, I mean I think you use the right term circumstantial.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: And if it seems like somebody in your viewing audience
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: is like, wait a minute, I thought she was a
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: victim's advocate. Why is she giving this alleged perpetrator so
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: much leeway. It's because I've seen these cases, and I've
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: worked cases in which I went in said, oh, my gosh,
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: he's one hundred percent guilty and then he wasn't at
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, or he's one hundred percent innocent,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: and then he wasn't. Right, And so now as of aged,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: I'm a little bit more like I got to take
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: all this evidence. So you have a bunch of circumstantial
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: evidence that take him together paint a very strong picture
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: that you know, against DeAndre. At this point, we've got
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: the messages, we've got the ended relationship. Again, there's things
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: as a victims expert that I'm oh, we have a
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: young woman who was killed right away, fifty to fifty
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: chance that it's her intimate partner. Oh, it's also within
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: days of her ending the relationship. Okay, there's another, right,
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: statistically significant piece of evidence. Can anybody google anything?
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: Sure?
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Can the defense poke holes in this. Yeah, maybe they
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: googled it, but because and I think you and I
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: from covering crime in two different ways, but for a
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: very long time. No, without this body, we're going to
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: have a very difficult time establishing murder and or without
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: you know, I've seen other cases in which there's been
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: leaders of blood of the victim, and you know that
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: you couldn't lose that much blood without being dead. We
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: don't need the body's not there. But there's no way
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: in this case. The physical evidence is weak, but all
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: the other evidence is so strong.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and we don't know what we don't know
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: about other potential evidence out there that is either being
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: processed right now or that they are still collecting. There's
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: a lot here that we don't know now. Police have
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: been working under this belief because of some blood that
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: they say they've traced to a landfill, because of the dumpster,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: because of this video that they allege, you know, potentially
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: shows Ashley's body being disposed This information is very hard
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: for the family to process if that is indeed how
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Ashley's body was disposed of, and it's especially hard for
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: the mother of the victim.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Here.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: So here's Ashley's mom responding to the police, working theory
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: that this is what was done to her daughter.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: He threw my daughter in the garbage like trash.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: She was nothing.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I think she was nobody. That hurts men in mosts.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: You know, when I hear that a victim has been
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: thrown away like trash, it's another level of pain and disrespect, right,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: But I guess one could make the argument. Look, and
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: this is for any case. If you kill someone, you
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: clearly have no regard for human life. So is it really,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: you know, a step too far, something beyond to then
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: put the body in the trash?
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: No, I guess not.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: But there's something about that if indeed the person responsible
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: is someone that you considered part of your extended family.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: That's why I think the mother's greatest pain lies. Oftentimes,
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: when I've worked with victims of crime their families, they're sad,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: but they're also very quickly. I don't know why we
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: as human beings do this. I haven't figured it out.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: If somebody figures it out, let me know. When we
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: feel sad, when we feel vulnerable, when we feel negative emotions,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: they often translate right away to guilt, like I should
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: have known, I should have done something. I'm the mother,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: and we know, reasonably speaking, except in a case where
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: you ignore your child's plea for help, there's probably nothing
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: in reasonable that Ashley's mother could have done in this circumstance.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: And so when you hear her, I think preciperating on this.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: You know, you treated my daughter like trash. It's just
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: the culmination of all of this pain. My daughter's gone.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: I can't get her back. What else could I have done?
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, you're not even
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: giving us the opportunity to bury her. I mean, this
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: is pretty painful, but very is she? Where is she?
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: Where is she? Where is she?
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Let us with great respect and dignity.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Of course, if your child dies, that the pain in
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: and of itself, But not to see that body, not
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: to have that closure that you're sure that they are
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: at least if you, if you're spiritual, at some sort
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: of spiritual rest, that's very painful.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's also very painful for the mother,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: given this nightmare that she had. It's almost as if
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: the mother was sensing something.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, very intuitive.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So here you are, is the mother.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: You're like, you're upset because this dream, this nightmare is
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: just something is going on.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: You sense it.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: You're trying to reach your daughter. Now you can't reach her.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, this nightmare is actually coming true. And
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: there are components of it with the car exactly. Oh,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: it's just so disturbing, so disturbing. So I want to
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about Deandre's behavior during this preliminary hearing,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: because he certainly has been a challenge.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, So.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: In the first few days, he refused to sit down.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: You know, usually, you know, the defendant is at a
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: table with his or her attorney. No, DeAndre wanted to
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: not sit. He wanted to stand in the jury box. Okay,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on here. I don't know
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: why you're doing this. And I guess the judge put
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: up with it for a little while and then it
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: became too much. Then the next situation is that DeAndre
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: refused to wear his jumpsuit into court. I guess he
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: wanted to wear something else. And at one point, according
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: to the reporting, DeAndre is just wearing a blanket, and
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I guess wanted to go into court wearing just a blanket. Okay, okay,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: So that didn't fly. So then the judge says, all right,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: then you are going to be on zoom and you
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: can watch the hearing because you're not behaving in a way.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're interrupting this hearing.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: So then he's on zoom and they have to mute
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: him because he's using profanity and screaming. Right, Okay, Look,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on here. Is he unraveling?
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Is he pretending to unravel? Sure, but one thing is clear.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: You are not helping your situation unless insanity is your
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: next move, right.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: And it's very funny when I looked up this case,
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: when I knew that you were going to ask me
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: about it, I saw comments about his behavior from a
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: variety of social media sources and people saying, oh, he's
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: going to try to claim insanity. I really just want
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: hear viewing audience to know it is almost impossible to
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: claim use insanity as a defense in a court. You're
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: talking about less than a one percent likelihood that's going
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: to fly, and the measure of insanity is so is
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: so strict. For instance, you could actually be completely insane,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: and if they can get you to a reasonable place
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: through pharmaceuticals, then you're going to be fit to stand trial.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: So there's two different ways in which insanity. You could
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: claim insanity as the reason for your behavior. But usually
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: the person in a murder trial where I've seen insanity work,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: you kill someone and you just stay with the body sitting.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: You know, you're not trying to cover it up, because
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: that would show that you have men'srea, that you understand
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: the legal significance of that matter. So I don't think
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: he's going to use insanity as if we find out,
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: you know, more information as a defense of why he
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: did it. Now, you could use insanity as a defense
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: to not stand trial. You're too insane to stand trial.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: But even if they can bring you back with pharmaceuticals
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: to a place, even if you were actually quite insane,
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: then you can still stand trial. You just have to
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: be able to have some awareness of why you're there.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: So the general public thinks it's used all the time. A.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: It is not.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: B it is.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: It's the standard is so high.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: It is high, but lots of people try and pull that.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: They do.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: We hear it a lot, you know, I do. I
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: hear it a lot in the cases. I'm just going
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: to come up with a figure. I'm going to say
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the time we hear it.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I was crazy. I didn't know what I was thinking.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: And like you said, maybe only one percent of the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: time is someone actually found truly incompetent to stand trial.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: And we have seen that in some cases, and it's
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and you don't actually want to be found
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: and competent to stand trial because you'll serve more time
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: because then you're institutionalized with an indiscriminate sentence.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: So the people who like think about you know, individuals
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: who who've attempted to assassinate presidents, right, they're often deemed
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: incompetence stand trell. They never get out. If they just
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: would have served time, they would have been done in
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: twenty years because it was an attempt. And so saying
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: your claiming insanity A is really very difficult to actually
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: come to fruition, and B your sentence is going to
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: be longer because it's an indiscriminate sentence in an institution.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Well, whatever is going on with DeAndre, His actions to
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: a degree did delay proceedings. They continued, but it did
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: delay things, you know with coming up with Okay, well
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: he wants to wear a blanket, that's not going to work.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Let's put him in front of a camera. Okay, now
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: he's screaming profanities. Well, we're going forward until you can actually,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: you know, pay attention. So the last day of testimony
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: in the preliminary hearing was August twenty second, and we
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: are still waiting for the judge to rule on this
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: on whether the case is going to go forward. And
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: in the meantime, authorities are still searching for Ashley's remains.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot that we don't know about this case.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: We are going to continue to follow it because it
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: is really one that is being documented in a process
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: that we don't always get a chance to see.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good. Yeah, and again you can also what
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: I like about this case is you get an insight
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: into prosecutorial rationale. A lot of times the prosecutor operates
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: more so in a vacuum. But we're going to be
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: able to see the why the prosecutor is using the tactic.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: Is it as you allude to, Is it a tactic
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: to try to roll a plate or is it a
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: tactic to buy time.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: To collect more evidence or find Ashley or ultimately yep,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: we need to find Ashley and Ashley needs justice.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, I agree.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: It is time for our comment section. These are the
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: crime cases you all are talking about on social media.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: And here's our producer, Will Updike.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, Will, How are you good? How's it going in
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: a good How are you good?
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: To see you?
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: Tracy? Always glad when you're back from Italy, although I'm
• 52:09
  Speaker 5: sure the feelings are more mixed for you.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: No, I love both places. I really good to see you.
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: Good to see you. So this week something a little different.
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: With this week we have a case of a scuba
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: clad heist in the happiest place on earth. This comes
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: out of Orange County, Florida, where a robbery at a
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: Disney Springs restaurant reportedly netted between ten and twenty thousand dollars.
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: After the suspect rop this restaurant and possibly allegedly swam away.
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: So this unfolded at the Paddlefish restaurant, which is at
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: Disney Disney Springs there, which is like part of the
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: larger sort of Disney World complex. This is like a
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: shopping and entertainment district and this restaurant itself, the Paddlefish,
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: according to their social media, is an iconic restaurant located
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: on a modern steamboat. If you look at pictures, it's
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: kind of shaped like a but looking thing. It's all
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: sort of, you know, like white colored art deco wie.
• 53:04
  Speaker 5: They serve a lot of seafood, three sixty water views
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: all around, so it seems like a very beautiful place
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: to die. May have been used a little bit to
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: their disadvantage in this specific sort of instant instance. So
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: just after midnight on September fifteenth, two employees of this
• 53:23
  Speaker 5: of the Powwerfish restaurant here we're counting money in an
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: office following the clothes of the restaurant, when a man
• 53:29
  Speaker 5: in dark clothes burst into the room and told them
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: to close their eyes. Now, some reports indicate they were
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: tied up, others seem to contradict that. It's really a
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: little bit difficult because all this reporting that we have
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: is coming from this complaint, which has been heavily redacted.
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: And I don't know if that's because they're trying to
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: keep some stuff sort of secretive as they go after
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: a suspect and they don't want anyone to destroy evidence.
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: I don't know if this is because it's you know,
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: close to Disney, and I know that they don't least
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: a whole lot of like public stuff on sort of
• 54:03
  Speaker 5: criminal investigations that are going on there. They let those
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: sort of things you know, play out and play things
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: pretty pretty close to the chest. But at any event,
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: no customers were inside the restaurant at the time that
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: this happened, and portanly neither of the employees were hurt.
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: They say that this suspect here was in and out
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: in about two minutes, and they, like I said, they
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: were able to make away with somewhere between ten and
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: twenty thousand dollars, which I want to talk about for
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: a second because it does seem like a large amount
• 54:33
  Speaker 5: of cash to have on hand. But then I was
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: remembering that, I mean, what is a soda at Disney
• 54:40
  Speaker 5: twenty five? I truly have I truly have no idea.
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: I mean, this might only be you know, this could
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: probably be the cash sums from, you know, less than
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: one hundred of the potential miners that they had in
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: an entire evening. I'm not really sure, but this respect,
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: the only real footage that we have of him is
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: this completely scuba clad person.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: They used a spray over some of the security cameras
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: so the they have security footage of them, you know,
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: uh doing these sprays to conceal these surveillance cameras. But
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: that's kind of really all that we have. And as
• 55:22
  Speaker 5: I said, they were in and out so quickly, and
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: they're sort of I don't know why, but it seems
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: like there's conflicting reports about how they escaped.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Now question will Yeah, you're talking about the scuba outfit.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, when he broke into the you know, back office
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: or whatever where the two employees were, was this person
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: wearing a scuba outfit?
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: It appears that they were only wearing dark clothing and
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: the bean. They were still completely covered, but it doesn't
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: look like they had like the flippers and the and
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: you know, the goggles and everything on. And police commented
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: time yes, well, so police commented on that too. What
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: they're saying is that it appears the suspect here found
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: someplace where they could store the wet suit and the
• 56:04
  Speaker 5: scuba gear that they arrived in, because they do believe
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: that they utilize the water to enter the restaurant, right,
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: and then they were able to stay store this, get inside,
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: get out within two minutes. And then it appears like
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: they redon this scuba gear and then we're able to
• 56:22
  Speaker 5: swim back across the water. According to a local outlet
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: there in Orlando, an anonymous tip to the station said
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: that the suspect escaped by swimming across the water wearing
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: a black wetsuit. Now they haven't publicly confirmed this detail,
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: but it seems like the most likely of scenarios if
• 56:37
  Speaker 5: this person swam in, because I would imagine the most
• 56:41
  Speaker 5: of the cameras are on sort of the boardwalk there,
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: like that's where they're watching, because that's where one hundred
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: percent of your customer base is entering and exiting. It's
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: not like a marina or something where you would have
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: people coming in from docks or boats or something like that.
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: So I think in both things, I mean, honestly, it's
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: not Yeah, it doesn't sound impossible. Some people were wondering,
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: like they thought that this demonstrated a lot of knowledge.
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: Could have been an inside job, could have been a.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: You know, I think so too. I think it was
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: an inside job.
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: I don't know. It does seem very bold in any
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: event like Disney, like a Disney resort, I think is
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: one of the last places I would think of, just
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: because the number of camera is certainly the number of
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: pedestrians well, and not even just security cameras. I would
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: think you got people with phones out filming stuff all
• 57:28
  Speaker 5: the time too. Like it's you know, it's like a
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: double it's sort of like a double thing there because
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: you have your official security and then just all the
• 57:35
  Speaker 5: people who happen to be documenting everything going on there
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: at the happiest day of their life or whatever. So,
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: like I said, the suspect was covered from from head
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: to toe apparently throughout the entirety of this robbery. There
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: thought to be a man of about five ten with
• 57:55
  Speaker 5: a slim build. Not a whole lot really to go
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: off of there, but the individual involved could be charged
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: with grand theft in the third degree. Again, I'll continue
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: to watch this one. It seems again everything is heavily redacted,
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: but it seems like there's not a whole lot to
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: go off of right now. So I'm curious to see
• 58:15
  Speaker 5: sort of how this one all plays out. I mean,
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: this is yeah, this is this is kind of a
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: wild heist to me, given the place slipper thought it
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: was gonna be a fast food.
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: No, right, but what did you have like your audience
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: comments are often great.
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: Do they have anything, Well, it's kind of it's kind
• 58:37
  Speaker 5: of a mix. Like I said, a lot of people
• 58:38
  Speaker 5: were really interested in, you know, what was this suspect's
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: connection to this restaurant? You know, how could they involved?
• 58:44
  Speaker 5: But you know, there seems to be a mix of
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: sort of like bewilderment and some people are just leaning
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: towards like being kind of impressed. It seems so. Patty said,
• 58:55
  Speaker 5: I hope they can find this guy because his camouflage
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: is really good. Which, yeah, yeah, I mean like they
• 59:01
  Speaker 5: really thought of a lot of angles here if they
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: in fact did swim in, because they wouldn't have been
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, I can't imagine they were, you know, viewed
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: on any real surveillance. They covered these other cameras. Yeah,
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: I don't know. Brian Teeth said, are we supposed to
• 59:16
  Speaker 5: be mad about this or impressed? Because I'm leaning more
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: towards impressed. And again, we don't advocate for any sort
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: of crime here a theft on this show, but it
• 59:24
  Speaker 5: was this one was a little different than what we
• 59:27
  Speaker 5: normally see in this in this segment. Normally, in this
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: sort of comments section piece, we're not seeing a lot
• 59:33
  Speaker 5: of finesse We're not seeing a whole lot of a
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: whole lot of forethought and planning. It's generally kind of
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: more of a spur on the moment or a heat
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: of passion type of activity. Fred was curious what they
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: would do with these these funds. They said, Wow, he'll
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: be able to afford almost a week at Disney, which
• 59:53
  Speaker 5: I think, yeah, depending on how many people you're with.
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: I don't know if that gets you a week. It's
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: been a long time since I've been there. But I
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: don't know how far ten to twenty k is getting you.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: Uh yeah, I don't. You know, you're not living you're
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: not living enough high on the hog if you're staying around.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: No, you're not living large on this getaway if.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: You're staying around the Disney resorts. But then again, I mean,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: you're probably getting as far away from there as possible.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: We'll see Lucas k said Florida Man version of Ocean's
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: eleven Lol, Which yeah, very much. It seems like because
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 5: it's it's well planned, but it's not like the most
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 5: elaborate thing.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: This reminds me of last week's case that you brought us,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: which was the guy who was on the cruise ship
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: who allegedly owed money from the casino, and so he
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: took his money and he jumped overboard and they found
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: him with the cash.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know something going on here.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 5: We've switched from fast food to a nautical meme.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I see that.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 5: I see that week.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Uh it's bring back the waffle House.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: It's just what comes up that's interest thing to me,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: and this one was very interesting to me. DTA fans said,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: damn you scoop of Steve. Just very funny reference to
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: Big Daddy. Great film. But yeah, I again, I'm I
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: don't want to say impressed, but I am curious how
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: they're gonna be able to put this whole one together,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 5: because I think you're really gonna need You're gonna need
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 5: someone to say something like, you're gonna need someone who
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: either had knowledge of this planning, who uh you know,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 5: who saw some of this money, or something like a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: loved one who's like, oh my, you know, son or
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: whatever large suddenly came into a large amount of cash.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: We happen to live in the Orlando area and he's
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: been into diving lately out of the blue. Because I
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: just from what we have, and again it is heavily redacted.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: There's just not much to go off of. But I
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: still thought it Wasn't you know you.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: Could update will you're at the end, don't you say,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: don't do crime or something right unless you have flippers.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: I think that's what could be.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: You can time with full flippers.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: We will consider if that's a mitigating factor.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. Or if there's a crime in which no
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 5: one is is injured in any way of.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: Course, or animals and it meets it.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah, if no, if no living thing is injured and
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: the circumstances reach a certain threshold of funniness, that to
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 5: me is a mitigating factor.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Like, it doesn't mean you get away with a crime.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: It just could be a mitigating factor, just.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 5: To mitigating it. Just a mitigating factor, just a mitigating factor.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 5: But that'll do it for this week's coments Action. We
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: actually we have some other news. We got to catch
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: up on some stuff. It's been a couple of weeks now,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 5: but uh Anna, you were recently the podcast was recently
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: the recipient of a reward thanks.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: To Hello this is an award winning podcast.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: Hello.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: You should have known that, but in case you didn't. No, No,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: we're deeply honored.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: We were actually given honored with a Clue Award from
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: Crime Con and it's for Outstanding Episodic Podcast Series. I
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: mean first, first of all, we are truly honored, I
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: mean beyond beyond honored.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you the competition in this I
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: thought for sure there was no way that we could
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: possibly win. So I was just like, I'm like, really
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: we want. I just like, and it's it's I try
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: to be humble about things, you know. We we just
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: we appreciate all of you.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: It's all about you, our listeners, our viewers, and of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: course it's about the survivors. I will say this, the
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: episode for which We Want is so dear to my
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: heart that I guess I could see how it was honored.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Because if you haven't heard or seen this podcast, you
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: really need to because it's unbelievable. It's this episode about
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Collier Landry, a young man whose father killed his mother
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: and he was like eleven or twelve at the time,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: and he was pretty suspicious that his dad had hurt
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: his mom, and while he was at school, he asked
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: the school to call the police, and he was working
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: with the police to help get evidence, and at one
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: point the little boy thought his father was going to
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: kill him, and he contacted the detective he had been
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: working with and they ran in there and they got
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: the kid out of there, and little Collier would have
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: been maybe like twelve had Braces is testifying against his.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Father at the murder trial for his mother.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: It is one of the most emotional podcast conversations I've
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: ever had. I was crying so much during the recording
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: of this podcast, so to honor that podcast means the
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: world to me because it's really about the strength of
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Call your Landry and we all asked, like, what happens
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: to the children of this violence? And he is a
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: man who chooses the light over darkness.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a really special episode and I will
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: link that in the description both here and on audio
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 5: platforms for anyone who's interested, So you should go back
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 5: and check that one out.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you everyone, Thank you crime Con. I've never
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: been to crime Con, but thank you crime Con so
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: much for that.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and thank you everyone who left your comments over
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: on this piece. You can do that on our YouTube
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: community page. You can also reach out to us anytime.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: We're on all social media at my True Crime Us.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: Don't forget dropped a little comment in the comment section
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: of this video any of our videos and reads your comments.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 5: But that'll do it for me until next week. Don't
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 5: do crime in lessons with flippers.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe we have a programming note. One thing here.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: The latest episode of twenty twenty is a case in
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: which I provide some commentary on. It's a case I've
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: covered extensively here for all of you.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: You know the case.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: It is the Colorado dentist who was convicted of killing
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: his wife by poisoning.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Her protein shakes.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: It is an insane case with a million twists and turns. Also,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty has some very exclusive of reporting on the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: people who helped identify what was really going on in
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: the dental practice, with the shipments of the poison and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: all this other stuff.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: So it's really a great case. Certainly if you're interested
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: in it, that's on twenty twenty. You can catch it
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: on Hulu or wherever you catch your stuff.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: Tracy, before we go, I just want to hear a
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: little bit about what you were doing in Italy this summer,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: besides having a wonderful time.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, so I was invited by two different universities to
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: discuss a new law in Italy called Codici Rosso. It
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: is similar to our Violence Against Women Act. Our Violence
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: Against Women Act originates in nineteen ninety four, and that
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: was the first time the federal government really recognized the
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: need for police training, for more services like shelters and
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: quart accompaniment, and also for research into a variety of
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse, elder abuse, and so.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: Europe has been adopting some of our policies over the
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: last twenty years, and this one is a major federal
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: act that is looking to replicate what the United States
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: has done in terms of requiring prosecutions for interpersonal violence,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: requiring more research, requiring more training for police. Our Violence
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: Against Women Act was it was instrumental and in changing
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: the way we thought about crimes like domestic and sexual violence.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: But we made a lot of mistakes in the United
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: States in the nineties and early two thousands, we were
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: arresting the actual victim. These were dual arrests, so the
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: police would come to the house, they couldn't sort out,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: you know, they didn't or they didn't want to sort out,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: because initially police did not want to respond to domestic
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: violence calls, so they would just arrest both parties and say,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: let's let the prosecutor figure it out. So we had
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: about ten twelve years in which we saw victims of
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: crime being arrested, not being taken seriously in sexual assault cases.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: Before you had advocacy groups saying, hey, wait a minute,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: this training, we need to really be training on victim sensitivity.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: And so what I went to Italy for and what
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: other countries in Europe? I don't know if I'll be
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: invited to other countries. I do speak Italian, so it's helpful.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: But they're saying, hey, what's worked in the US and
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: what hasn't worked? Is there anything that any advice you
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: would give us? As an American criminologist who also was
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: the director of a victim service agency during those years,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: and so I was so excited. I spoke with federal police,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: with prosecutors, with judges and said, here's what we did, well,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: here's what we got wrong. I hope you can learn
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: from our mistakes. So I did lectures and I wrote
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: a few papers for them for them to reference.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: Wow, you just really increase the real estate here on
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: this podcast.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: No wonder we are award winning.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: That's you, Anna, that's not me, but thank you.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: It is our guests, it really is. Our guests are
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: just amazing.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: You're also interesting from such a different backgrounds and that's
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: what I love the perspectives.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: And you are a huge fan favorite. It's like you,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: doctor Tambora is back.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you. No, I like your fans. My
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: kids read more of the comments than I do. I'm
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: not great with social media stuff, and they're like, mom,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: they like you. And to hear your children be, you know,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: surprised people like you, that's that feels.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: Great, so funny.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: All right, I know you don't spend a lot of
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: time on social media, but where can people find you
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: or follow you?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: Well, I now have the Instagram that you advise me, right.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: So I just like the way you say the Instagram.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: It's like the Facebook.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: O Facebook. Yeah. I think I have about forty followers.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: And then my website at the University of New Haven
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: has the you know, books, articles, things that I have written.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: So if you're interested, oh I love it, you can
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: find me at anagy news.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Anna with one N.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: You can find this episode to all our episodes wherever
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: you get your podcasts. Subscribe to our YouTube channel because
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: that's where we have the vocal and vibrant community where
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: we discuss cases. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: today's case and the complexity of circumstantial evidence versus what
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: appears to line up with statistical evidence.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: Might be very interesting to hear what you have to say.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: You can find everything we do at my true Crime
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: News pretty simple on social media. You can also sign
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: up for our newsletter at truecrimenews dot com. So until
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: next week, this is True Crime News the podcast I'm
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: your host, Ana Garcia.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Crime never stops, and neither do we