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Transcript

The Split · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:02
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:03
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:04
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
• 0:06
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:08
  Pete Wright: The split is over. Listen, Marty. The last man I killed, I did it for $5,000. For 85,000, I'd kill you 17 times.
• 0:18
  Trailer: Jim Brown is McClain, a dark horse with a bright idea. One half a million split six ways.
• 0:30
  I don't like who I'm working with.
• 0:32
  Either they're all locked in or none of us are. In McLean's violent underworld, they judge a man by the color of the money he steals.
• 0:48
  Trailer: Don't you know it's just a game? So make believe that this is real love.
• 1:03
  Trailer: You have the whole world to mess up. Why me? You're on the spot, boy. Quit. Quit.
• 1:17
  Oh, there were no names of style that was unmistakable.
• 1:24
  Andy Nelson: Here we are. Here we are. Yeah.
• 1:26
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the split. The split. Now, again, we're we're partway through your series of nineteen sixty eight crime films. What was it about this one that drew you to it when you were putting your list together?
• 1:39
  Andy Nelson: Well, crime films also it's a heist film. Right? I read the I read the the tagline for it, and it's clearly a heist film. And then I looked at the cast. Right?
• 1:49
  Ernest Borgneijn, Gene Hackman, Jack Klugman, James Whitmore, Warren Oates, Donald Sutherland, Diane Carroll, and Jim Brown. Like, those people in a movie together are just compelling to me in terms of of movies in 1968. Like, I was I was in it for the cast. That I mean, that that's literally where I stopped and said, well, I'm definitely picking this movie. I I guess I also looked at the IMDb.
• 2:13
  It's a six. It's a straight six on the IMDb scale. And and that's that says it's it's at least watchable.
• 2:20
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And I I mean, I think it's funny because, like, when I put my list together for the series we did right before this of heist films, returning to that, I ended up inadvertently pulling all sixties heist films. And this one still, like, didn't pop into my register. And I think that's interesting. It's crazy.
• 2:39
  I hadn't heard of this one in my list of options. And then I watch it. I'm like, this is another great sixties heist film. Like, had a great time with it. I really enjoyed the team, like, the the set of actors that they they bring here.
• 2:53
  I enjoyed the whole premise and the way that they pulled it off. I had a great time with this.
• 3:00
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Me too. I I think this movie does some things by virtue of the fact that it was made in 1968. One of the the major kind of thematic elements is is dealing with with race. Right?
• 3:12
  It's dealing with, you know, the fact that Jim Brown is black and everybody else is white, and one of them is supremely racist. And yet the, you know, the white woman is very much into Jim Brown, and so there's a lot of sort of conflicting ideologies for the time. And I think that's an interesting angle that the movie brings. It also like, it it does like, you could take that part out of it, and I would love to see this movie remade with a modern cast because I loved the original. I don't think there'd be any in Love Lost seeing this story with a modern cast.
• 3:53
  It does some really interesting things and I think could be updated in a way that that is really compelling.
• 4:00
  Pete Wright: I'd be curious to see how they would update it because this also is a heist that specifically, the heist is so of its time. Right? Yeah. Like, this is the the plan for this heist. Jim Brown builds a team.
• 4:15
  So we've got our whole team building, which we'll have to talk about because it was fun the way he chose to do it in this film. He builds his team, and the the plan to steal is from a playoff game at this, the LA Coliseum where they're, they realize how much money is funneled into the game. Like, when you fill a crowd with thousands of people or fill a stadium with thousands of people, and they all pay a ticket price, they're all buying food and concessions and and programs and whatever else they're selling, they realize in cash. All in cash. Right.
• 4:53
  This is a period where there's just no credit cards at all. And so everybody is paying with cash, and they realize how much money they can make off with. And so they put this plan together to steal all of it. Now, that would be the trick in figuring out how do you rework this heist so it's updated in today's financial systems that we have in place, and security systems, and every other system because there are so many systems we have in place that aren't in place here. Like, we're just gonna go in the night before, you know, go through the gate, and we'll just gonna park an ambulance in there.
• 5:27
  No one's gonna notice. Like, they get away with a lot of stuff in this that I think makes it a very specific heist. But that's something I really liked about it because I don't think in the last set of heist films that we just talked about, I don't think that we necessarily ran into any that were so period specific as far as the way the heist had to be done in that particular time.
• 5:52
  Andy Nelson: That's right. That's right. I mean, the fact that that any remake of this movie would have to be a techno thriller heist movie Or a period film. Or a period film actually makes it incredibly risky because as soon as you bring technology in, there's opportunity for it to just be stupid. Yeah.
• 6:07
  Exactly. But but I still I I I think what they accomplished here, right, to your point, let's just go in the night before and set up shop is kind of extraordinary. And the fact that the entire heist was pulled off in plain sight. Right? Like, they were in the office as they were as the security people were handing money to them.
• 6:26
  That is a beautiful ballet of of theft that, I found myself really enjoying in this movie.
• 6:33
  Pete Wright: I I just but it was funny because I'm like I mean, they literally plant themselves in the building. Like you said, the night before, they go in in the middle of the night. They park an ambulance there, and then they just hang out in the office. The rest of the night, all the workers come in that morning. They're there all day.
• 6:52
  The game is an afternoon game. And so because I think it would don't they say at one point, like, kick off at six or something like that? So it's like, or maybe it's not quite that late.
• 7:02
  Andy Nelson: But anyway I think it because it's still very much daylight when they leave.
• 7:05
  Pete Wright: It's very daylight when they leave. Yeah. So it's probably they're probably leaving, you know, by the they leave two minutes before the game's over. And it still is pretty sunny outside. So but still, they are there in this place for, I don't
• 7:20
  Andy Nelson: know, Almost twenty four hours. Yeah. Probably eighteen hours.
• 7:24
  Pete Wright: Exactly. And and that's a hell of a lot of time. I mean, they are they taking bathroom breaks?
• 7:28
  Andy Nelson: Are they eating?
• 7:29
  Pete Wright: Right. Did they send somebody up to go get concessions? Like, what are they doing?
• 7:34
  Andy Nelson: That would be that's like the ultimate. They just go in there so they could take money that they've stolen and buy concessions with it and steal that money twice.
• 7:42
  Pete Wright: Right. That's brilliant. That's so funny. So, I mean, I I liked that heist. I thought it was a lot of fun and the way they put it together.
• 7:51
  And and, I mean, I suppose we should go back just for a little bit and talk a little bit more about race that you were you brought that up as one of the elements of the film because I think it's definitely something that's here. Jim Brown is our lead character. He's the one who is brought in by Gladys, Julie Harris's character, to do this heist. She's the one who has the idea. She's gonna finance it.
• 8:13
  He brings in the team, builds it, and they they they get the whole thing going. And also, it all ends up involving his ex wife because per Gladys, she's like, why don't you just store the money overnight at Ellie's place? And which ends up leading to all the problems in the final part of the film, which is the title, the split. That's that's what it all boils down to is the split of the money. I I I liked having Jim Brown as our lead, and I I think it's interesting because Jim Brown actually said, to Roger Ebert when the film came out.
• 8:46
  He said, what I wanna do is play roles as a black man instead of playing black man's roles, you know. The guy in the split, for example, could be any color, and I don't make a big thing out of my race. If you try to preach, people give you a little sympathy and then they wanna get out of the way. So you don't preach, you tell the story. I have a theory an audience doesn't need to get wrapped up in blackness every time they see a Negro actor, and a movie doesn't have to be about race just because there's a Negro in it.
• 9:07
  If there's a bigot in the audience, he has to keep reminding himself, that's a black man. That's a Negro because the storyline has left him way behind, man, way behind. Just tell the story. And before you know it, the cat will be identifying with you and he won't even know how it happened. So that's a quote from Jim Brown Smart.
• 9:23
  In 1968. And that's exactly how he plays it, which I think is a great idea. And what that does is it lets it be a story about, you know, thieves putting a plan in place to commit a robbery. And then it layers in on top of that characters that we have like Warren Oates' character, who you said, is very racist and doesn't want to work with this guy, doesn't trust him because he's black. And that ends up creating tension, particularly once the money disappears.
• 9:55
  And we've got the whole last part of the film as they, you know, I think fairly, a lot of them are just angry at McClain because the money's gone. But I think Marty, Warren Oates' character, uses it as a chance to also, you know, be abusive. Be racist. And be racist. Yeah.
• 10:13
  Yeah. So that's it's an interesting element.
• 10:15
  Andy Nelson: I do think it's interesting. I think it's really interesting, the balance of trust in this. Because, I mean, so much of this movie is a trust and betrayal movie. Right? It's it's about building a team based on trust, which they do not do.
• 10:28
  Right? Foundationally, the way the team is set up is not in a in a way that is considered trustworthy. But back to that in a second. When things fall apart, it's Jim Brown who goes to everybody and bullies them and says, where's the money? Thinking that they stole the money.
• 10:47
  And the balance of tension between those who believe that that Jim Brown is right and that one of them stole the money versus the groupthink that erupts against Jim Brown, against McClain's character, is a really inch interesting tension as we transition into the third act of the movie. And the fact is McClain does not have a trustworthy angle. Right? Nobody believes him. They're all criminals, and so he becomes a vessel for their rage.
• 11:21
  I I think that's really fascinating. And the fact that he then has to sort of re betray the group by turning to detective Brill, Hackman's character, to kind of resolve things is is interesting. Everything sort of dissolves. There's no getaway
• 11:37
  Pete Wright: No. Yeah. For the team in this movie. Yeah. And to your point, it is so interesting the way that he builds the team.
• 11:44
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Let's talk about that.
• 11:46
  Pete Wright: The least trustworthy way for a person like this to put a team together. It's not like we had in grand slam where he goes to somebody who's got his filing cabinet of all the people he knows that are the playboy and the safecracker and whatever. No. And and it's not like Ocean's 11 where it's just, hey, who do we know? Hey, let's let's bring all these people in.
• 12:10
  This is a guy who knows the people he wants to use, but needs essentially to prove that they are as good as he's heard they are. So for example, when he goes and talks to Ernest Borgnein, he shows up in his office and just starts, like, a fight
• 12:28
  Andy Nelson: with him. Wailing on him.
• 12:29
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And and it's just this big fight. And and Klinger's like, what the hell is going on? And they're just fighting. And he's just like and then it's over.
• 12:37
  And he's just like, yeah. You're good. And he walks out. And that's kind of like, okay. And and so that's what he does.
• 12:42
  Like, he's testing them all. Like, when it's Klugman, it's dry like this he's racing him through the the hills over over Hollywood.
• 12:51
  Andy Nelson: And I I mean, could have killed him. Like, I think there was like, he could pull the his punches with Borg nine. Right? He could just stop punching and be okay. And that's what happened.
• 13:03
  But Klugman, he could have legitimately killed the guy driving him off the off a cliff. And I thought that was that's bold. That is a bold audition to get that done. And and, you know, finally, Sutherland. Oh, the funny one is Warren Oates.
• 13:20
  Right? That he traps them in an underground safe with a light trigger. Like, what
• 13:25
  Pete Wright: where are they? And why is that safe just sitting there? Like, that was In the sewer? Just like, who's, like, put this safe here and leaves it available for access as needed?
• 13:39
  Andy Nelson: Right. That was that was a risky one. But I love the fact that, you know, he has to take off his pants to throw it over this light sensor to keep the door open so that he can get out. That was amusing. That was a funny bit of comic relief.
• 13:50
  And then, of course, we have Don Sutherland who gets the the fastest audition, which felt very, like, sort of phoned in. He just, you know, does a little bit of mirror play, gets Sutherland to pull his gun and shoot at the mirror, and then he's done. That was apparently good enough. Nothing as invested in either of the first two. The Borgnein fight is a strong fight, and the Klugman drive is is excellent driving.
• 14:16
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It was it was it did feel like by the time we got to Sutherland, who is the last one, that they were realizing they needed to move the story along. And just like, okay. We just we just need to get these guys recruited and get this movie happening.
• 14:30
  Andy Nelson: Well, it felt like, oh god, there are four guys? I just I thought there were three. We gotta okay. Let's go. Let's take an evening and shoot Sutherland.
• 14:38
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It was it was this strangest one because then McLean just leaves and Sutherland, like, his character doesn't, like, go after him or anything.
• 14:48
  Like, it's just like he just like, Okay. Who was that guy in the hallway who had a gun at me?
• 14:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Who had a gun at me, and I was just gonna kill him in the hallway. I was just gonna shoot him in this the hotel.
• 15:00
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It was not it wasn't even a hotel, was it? It's like where he lived. Didn't he greet the the guy at
• 15:07
  Andy Nelson: the Condo or something like
• 15:08
  Pete Wright: that? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you know, blowing mirrors out of his own building's hallways.
• 15:13
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Like right in front of his right in front of his his place.
• 15:17
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Subtle. But it was fun. It was fun to see. But you're right.
• 15:23
  It does build a sense of untrustworthiness out of the gate. And so McClain, they all agree to be part of this heist because, you know, upwards of, $85,000 a person, they, by the time they they split the money, the earnings from this game, it's it's a great amount of money. And so, yeah, of course, they're going to to do it. But I I I think it's interesting because that really leads to the attitude that everybody has in the latter half of the film after the money disappears. Yeah.
• 16:01
  And and it's important.
• 16:02
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It is. It it is important. How, the fact that this movie transitions from a heist film, trust and betrayal movie, into the the re betrayal at the end of the movie as, you know, they have their steam room comeuppance. And I guess that's when they all start shooting each other.
• 16:25
  And then we have to transition to meet our friend, the detective. Did that seem out of the blue
• 16:32
  Pete Wright: to you? Well, it didn't I mean, it seemed because the heist, they they essentially get away with everything halfway through the film. Like, that's kind of, you know, a good setup for the film. And then we have the money disappear, and that puts us into a situation where we've got to kind of figure out the plans on what's gonna happen now and where'd the money go. And so it made sense to me that a detective would get involved in the story.
• 17:01
  Like, I wasn't surprised here that we that we end up doing this. And maybe it's also because we're just coming off of talking about the Boston Strangler, which also is a film that kind of has this bifurcated element. Like, we follow the cops trying to figure it out for so much in the first half. And then finally, halfway through the film, we we finally meet our killer. And that's when we kind of follow him for the rest of the film as he continues committing these murders and then gets caught.
• 17:29
  And so this film, I guess, weirdly felt of the time. Like, it just like, the fact that we end up meeting this this, pivotal character halfway through the film didn't end up surprising me.
• 17:42
  Andy Nelson: The fact that it was a pivotal character, and and part of it is the inflation of Gene Hackman after the sixties. Right? Introducing him so late. But he has some decades of weight behind him now that makes it odd that we'd meet him in the, essentially, the third act. But the the twist of having this this terrible landlord experience and having the landlord steal all this stuff, and then the exchange between Hackman and the landlord not happening on screen, I I thought was an interesting choice.
• 18:19
  It it felt a little bit empty to me. Like, we were trying to like, we didn't know where we were gonna go, so we wrote in some backstory, some exposition.
• 18:27
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It does happen quickly. And I I suppose to a certain extent, we're watching it from McClain's perspective, still at this particular point. Like, he's he's met the detective and has a sense as to what's going on. Like, he sets up this whole thing because, I mean, you know, just to say, like, Ellie is his ex wife.
• 18:48
  We talked about that Diane Carroll. And their relationship is still a little rocky, but she does agree to while they're kind of I I don't know why they don't just hold the money themselves, but that's kind of part of the story. She's holding all the money She's clean.
• 19:06
  Andy Nelson: She has no
• 19:06
  Pete Wright: records. She's clean. She has no records. So she's holding everything. And then McClain is gonna come over the next day to get it so that they can then do the split.
• 19:14
  As opposed to, again, they're just doing the split right after. Yeah. Anyway, it's all part of the title. So her she just happens to have a terrible landlord. James Whitmore is very pervy Herb Sutro, who we only see a couple times, but he clearly is into her and essentially goes into her apartment to rape her and does so.
• 19:38
  And then she goes at after a gun and tries to save herself, but he he gets the gun, shoots her, like like, he's a little more into it than you would think.
• 19:51
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. That was rough. Yeah. Look what I have. Right.
• 19:55
  Pete Wright: And it's like his his his phallic, rape representation right there as he blows her away and makes up with the money. And that's why McClain and no one else has any idea as to what actually happened here. And it's only when McClain comes back and and kind of gets caught in the middle of all of this when a couple cops recognize it. And that's how he kind of goes to Brill, and Brill gives him the clue that, you know, it could be the landlord. And that's when all the pieces fall into place.
• 20:26
  So at the point of the film that you're talking about where we it's a newspaper where, they see the headline and find out that Brill killed this psycho who had killed a woman. Now the crime has been solved. And now, McClain and his team know because it doesn't mention the money at all that Brill has the money. So for me, it worked that at this moment, we're not following Brill as he goes to get the money and kill Sutro. I I kinda liked that we don't stay that stay there.
• 21:05
  And we don't really get to spend time with Brill except, like, I'm trying to remember if we're ever with Brill when we're not also with McLean, and I don't think so.
• 21:13
  Andy Nelson: I think we I I think we are. I I think there is a scene where in the where we are with Brill as he's looking through the apartment. And then it cuts to the guys in the steam room.
• 21:31
  Pete Wright: Okay. Yeah. That's possible.
• 21:32
  Andy Nelson: And he gets out of his car and he goes home. But but it's it's brief. It's brief. And I'm second guessing myself a little bit. I but but it is brief.
• 21:41
  And the fact that that he comes that that McClain comes back to him at the end and says, like, this is how we're gonna do it. And I'm a man of honor. I only want one sixth. I only want what I was originally contracted for makes this one of those movies where the detective stands to make a lot more out of this heist, which is weird, you know, especially coming out of movies where good guys, you know, weren't allowed to do bad things.
• 22:13
  Pete Wright: Well and it it is a weird well, and he doesn't in the end. Right? He he agree he agrees at the end that I'm gonna actually turn this in because it will give me my bump in detective ranking. Yeah. And I'll get to be first detective instead of third.
• 22:26
  So that's an interesting bit.
• 22:29
  Andy Nelson: You know, part
• 22:29
  Pete Wright: of me knowing that McClain does walk off with a chunk of the money, I I did question his logic in why does he say he's only he only wants a sixth. Like, why not just say half? Let's just split it then. Like, I'm I'm not sure what the benefit is of making him
• 22:49
  Andy Nelson: do that. Especially because $85,000 is like, that that, you know, inflation is one of the things that makes this movie challenging because you have to constantly do math. Like, what is it in today's dollars? So you can see just how big a deal a half million dollar split six ways was.
• 23:07
  Pete Wright: Right. It does it does make you wonder, though. Why why not just, you know, push the cop for half? I don't know.
• 23:13
  Andy Nelson: Right. I don't know. Because he was a because he's, you know, he's not Robin Hood. It's not like he's giving away his half. But that's his display of honor.
• 23:22
  Right? That's his display of maintaining his aesthetic as a or his sort of moral background as a trustworthy guy. He came in, agreed to
• 23:33
  Pete Wright: a thing, and he's gonna live by. That's his code. But he he didn't agree with with Hackman with that. And so that's, I guess, part of his code that is weird because it's like, so if k. Go with me on this.
• 23:45
  If Hackman wasn't involved and somehow or maybe he was, but maybe he gets killed. And let's just say that McClain is standing there with a a a duffel bag full of half million dollars. Is he gonna say, well, only a sixth of it is mine. Everyone else is dead. So I'm just gonna turn the other five I'm gonna
• 24:05
  Andy Nelson: give it back to Yeah. To charity. To the orphanage. This money can do a lot of good, Andy.
• 24:13
  Pete Wright: Well, I guess it's it's an interesting element. And I do feel like it becomes an interesting trope that we have in heist films sometimes where you have to kind of your character is a thief and a burglar and therefore a bad guy. But by doing this, is this what they're giving to this McClain character to make him the actual good guy of the film. He's the protagonist because and we like him because he has a moral code. And even though it makes kind of no sense in context, it's gonna still work out.
• 24:47
  Andy Nelson: Yes. I I mean, I think all of that. I think once you're in the movie I mean, did you stop and think about that while you're watching the movie?
• 24:54
  Pete Wright: No. I guess not. It's only it only came up because, you know, of our conversation here.
• 24:58
  Andy Nelson: But Yeah. And that's what I think because you're in the hero mode. Right? You're watching the guy be the hero. So when he sits down in front of Hackman and says, I only want what I was agreed to to get.
• 25:09
  Right? If if the rest helps you, so be it. I buy that because I'm in I'm on the the code road. Yeah. I'm on the hero's code road.
• 25:18
  And I I think it's I think it's it works for me, even in hindsight that that's where that that that's where the money ends up. The thought experiment is really interesting. I don't think he my my hunch is he would not give it to the orphanage. But, you know, maybe there's a a world where he sets up some sort of a beneficial organization in the name of Ellie for because she's dead. Right?
• 25:45
  That's the there there's always room to write that for that would fit within the code on the code road.
• 25:50
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And, you know, I guess that's that's where where we sit with it is that it's there is an element to the story. And all honestly, he's working with a cop. Albeit a shady cop, but a cop who he's gonna have to cut a deal with. And when you're cutting a deal with a cop, it's like, well, you're kind of are in a position where you're probably better off making the cop feel like you're giving them the better deal.
• 26:20
  Yeah. And that may be also part of it. Right? For sure.
• 26:24
  Andy Nelson: But it does beg the question of justice in this movie. Right? Because Ellie's dead. Ostensibly, McClain is on the hunt for for her killer. He finds out about her killer and who killed her
• 26:44
  Pete Wright: killer. What is the last act's statement on McClain's search for justice? As far as search for justice, I feel like they got the money back, and that was that was the crux of the end of the film. Right? They or they had the money, and they essentially got rid of everyone else.
• 27:03
  It was either we're gonna have to split it with people, or we're gonna get rid of people. And it ended up everyone ended up kind of coming after them, so they just it was just easier to kill everybody. So everyone dies. Right?
• 27:13
  Trailer: Mhmm.
• 27:14
  Pete Wright: And it's it we're left with McClain standing there in the junkyard with, detective Brill, and Brill gives him the money. Well, we don't see it happen, but we know that what's gonna happen is per their agreement, Brill will give him his sixth of the money, and then he as he says, he's gonna actually turn the rest in so that he can get his promotion. And then we have McClain going to an airport and leaving, and we have that moment where as he's walking to the gate, we hear a woman's voice, which sounds very much like Ellie's, call him out. And I couldn't help but think that the statement that was being made, it's not really a search for justice anymore, but it's just a sense of how the ghosts will be haunting him now. Like, it just seemed like all of the stuff that went on here, like, he wasn't taking care of somebody who did mean something to him, and he's now perpetually gonna be haunted by her.
• 28:15
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I I did not take it quite so negatively. Okay. I just thought that, like, oh, she'll be with him forever. Isn't that sweet?
• 28:28
  You're like, oh, she'll she'll haunt his nightmares till the end of his day. Yeah. No. But but I think we're in we're in agreement on on the voice of Ellie and what it represents. Either either it's, you know, a loving guide on his journey through life or baggage that he drags to his grave.
• 28:52
  But she's with him.
• 28:53
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. And it was and it's interesting. Like, that was something that felt of the era to end the film that way where we I I don't necessarily think that it's like a remnant of the production code type of storytelling where it's like, well, he's getting away with money, but we need to show that it's the that he's gonna be haunted by choices that he made. Like, I don't feel like it's a production code thing, but it does feel like there are elements of that decision here.
• 29:23
  And it just kind of feels like we're almost the seventies, and we want to be telling these darker stories and give people these these takes that psychologically they they might be a victor, but psychologically, they may be broken now. And I found that to be so interesting.
• 29:42
  Andy Nelson: I think it's really interesting. And I I like that you brought that up because to me, it does feel so much like this was MGM saying or people, individuals at MGM saying, look, we make a bunch of family friendly grandma movies. Let's go ahead and see what happens when we let people do some things that are adult in nature. And as a result, they they get the first r for this movie, right, from the MPAA under the new guidelines.
• 30:09
  Pete Wright: Yep. First r rating. Yep.
• 30:11
  Andy Nelson: That's a big deal. It just feels like a significant departure from what MGM was doing at the time. And I think that's I I think that's fascinating. And I to your point, is it a true and intentional shift away from the Hays code, or is it just the studio doing what studio does? And here's the content that we think makes a good movie, and we have the stars to do it.
• 30:34
  And we're not really thinking about transitions. Either way, this film sits at a certain place in history and time that makes it an a a milestone, for MGM in in in kind of an interesting way.
• 30:49
  Pete Wright: I don't know if I know enough about MGM's film. I'm looking right now of films that MGM released in the sixties. And it's just I'm gonna read through 1968 just to give you a sense of the films that they released that year. Ready? I'm ready.
• 31:04
  A Man Called Dagger, the biggest bundle of them all. Missus Brown, you've got a lovely daughter. I regret my choice already because now that damn song is gonna be in my head. I hate that song. Soul Madrid, The Power, Day of the Evil Gun, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Stay Away Joe, Guns for San Sebastian, Two thousand one, Space Odyssey.
• 31:25
  A stranger in town. Battle beneath the Earth. Speedway. Where were you when the lights went out? The helicopter spies.
• 31:32
  This is a man from uncle film. Dark of the sun. Kiss the other sheik. A time to sing. The legend of Lila Claire.
• 31:39
  A man, a horse, a gun, the young runaways, hot millions, revenge for revenge, the subject was roses, live a little, love a little, ice station zebra, the
• 31:49
  Andy Nelson: split, the shoes of the fishermen, the impossible years, the fixer. It does looking at just 1968, it does sound like MGM was saying, okay. We're gonna make a bunch of movies that are gonna reflect our transition now, and none of them are getting an r. So we're gonna keep making them until we get one.
• 32:07
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I know. Right. It's yeah. It's interesting.
• 32:10
  Even going into 1969, I'm trying to see if there's any I recognize that I would say, oh, that may be an r rated film. I don't know them well enough to actually be able to say that. So I don't know. But it is interesting to look at and just kind of get a sense as to, what this particular studio was putting out. You know?
• 32:29
  Andy Nelson: Well, because with Jim Brown I mean, apart from this being his first kind of lead role in a in a film, right, that's of note. The fact that they I I don't think, at least what I'm reading here, is that MGM had not, to this point, featured a black actor as a protagonist, a central figure in a crime thriller until the split.
• 32:53
  Pete Wright: Was he he was in the dirty dozen, and that is essentially a crime thriller.
• 32:59
  Andy Nelson: Right? And was that an MGM film?
• 33:01
  Pete Wright: MGM, I don't know. That was, you know, it was it was MGM sixty seven.
• 33:06
  Andy Nelson: Interesting.
• 33:08
  Pete Wright: So, yeah, so he
• 33:10
  Andy Nelson: was in But but he was not
• 33:11
  Pete Wright: Andy was an antagonist. Zebra.
• 33:13
  Andy Nelson: He was not the protagonist. Right? This movie
• 33:16
  Pete Wright: Well, but but you said like, no. He's the lead. Right. But he was one of the one of the team on that one as I recall. Right.
• 33:23
  And he was in Ice Station Zebra the same year as this, but not the lead in that either. Yeah. So I guess that's the question. Like, as a lead, I think that is a little different. Although, was he let's see.
• 33:37
  When did the I'm just trying to think Bill Cosby now because Bill Cosby may have beat him as far as a black lead in a thriller. Well, it's the I Spy films or I Spy show, but Bill Cosby was also in what is that? Hickey and Boggs. That was, no. Was a few years later.
• 33:58
  That was '72. So but I yeah. So I don't know. Maybe you're right. It is pretty interesting.
• 34:05
  Andy Nelson: I'm just saying, confluence of events.
• 34:08
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. Right. Also, just going back to Bill Cosby, not that not that that's something you should regularly do.
• 34:15
  Andy Nelson: Is this a Bill Cosby show that we're doing now?
• 34:17
  Pete Wright: But I do think that it's important to note that this was a film where, Jim Brown actually had an African American stuntman doing his work. And and it was the founding member of the Black Stuntman's Association, Calvin Brown, who actually did the stunts for his for the film. And what used to happen is that when there were stunts that were happening is that they would put a white person in a black face, essentially. They would paint down a white performer to do the stunts. And Bill Cosby on the show, I Spy, was actually a key part in that change.
• 34:58
  And and because he refused to actually allow that to happen for him. He wanted it to be a black stuntman. And that was a big change that happened in the sixties. And and so it's important. It's, you know, good to note that Jim Brown actually had an African American American stuntman here.
• 35:15
  That
• 35:16
  Andy Nelson: is really fascinating.
• 35:18
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yep.
• 35:20
  Andy Nelson: Good to know. Okay. So confluence of events, I think, I just just to close the loop, I think that the, you know, 1968 notwithstanding, I I don't know a lot of those films that MGM was producing, but I do think their reputation is the Singin' in the Rain studio and the Ben Hur studio. This is a different kind of film for MGM in the sixties. And the '68 is probably a strong transition point for the studio.
• 35:46
  Pete Wright: You know, I wonder if MGM along with other studios were realizing 1963, twentieth Century Fox almost went bankrupt doing Cleopatra. And I wonder if from that point to this point, these studios were realizing we need to change things because we can't be spending as much on these epics and these big these big stories and everything, and let's let's find other ways to direct our projects.
• 36:21
  Andy Nelson: That's interesting. Yeah. What is your stance on Gordon Fleming?
• 36:25
  Pete Wright: Our fair director, Gordon Fleming, a Scottish director who also was a writer and producer, only directed six features, mostly a a TV person. And, the the movies that he directed are two of them are actually Doctor Who movies. I think that they were I don't know. I don't know enough about Doctor Who. I don't know if it was like like one of those movies that's actually two episodes squeezed together to make a movie that gets released, but he was he did direct two of those.
• 36:58
  He directed Doctor Who and the Daleks.
• 37:01
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. God. That is one of those where, like and that came out just before the split. And it makes you wonder, like, what did they see in doctor who and the Daleks and say, you know, Gordon's our man for the split.
• 37:15
  Pete Wright: Well, he actually, he did doctor who and the Daleks, Daleks invasion Earth twenty one fifty AD. And then he did great Catherine. And that's actually the film that they saw that they said, oh, let's bring this guy in. It is based on a George Bernard Shaw play. It's a it's a, like, a royalty comedy.
• 37:33
  Peter O'Toole is a British officer who's sent to the Russian court of Catherine the Great as an envoy, and then he has to contend with Potemkin and all of his machinations. Zero Mostel plays Potemkin. So there is like this sense of the comedy that I think that they recognized in Fleming. And I think largely, this, you know, this is the second of these Parker adaptations. We'll talk about that in a bit.
• 37:59
  But Robert Chartoff and Irwin Winkler had just done point blank and wanted to do another one. So they decided to do this one. And I think they were aiming for John Borman who did point blank, but they went with Fleming after seeing great great Catherine. So I have seen I don't think I've seen anything of his. I've never seen any of the doctor who stuff, and he's directed so few films.
• 38:25
  After this is just the last grenade and flight into hell. Yeah. I just know very little of him. Have you seen anything else of his? No.
• 38:33
  Did you watch those doctor who movies?
• 38:34
  Andy Nelson: No. I haven't watched the doctor who movies. And I'm kind of in a doctor who phase right now, but I'm in the current stuff. So I haven't gone back to the sixties. Who knows if I'll get there?
• 38:43
  But I'm with you. I have not seen, you know, much of his stuff besides this. I may have seen there's a show he did in the early nineties called Lovejoy that he directed a couple of episodes of that I I would have no way of knowing what his particular stamp was on that movie on that show. Right. So, yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting.
• 39:05
  He's kinda come out of nowhere for me even though he's got, you know, lots and lots of credits.
• 39:09
  Pete Wright: Again, it's so much TV. And when you see that he's done things like the saint and the avengers, it's like, oh, okay. I can see them recognizing in him aside from great Catherine, but I can see him doing those sorts of shows and then fitting well in a film like this. Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:25
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. You wanna talk about the Parker adaptations?
• 39:28
  Pete Wright: Yeah. So this, is yet another of these Parker adaptations. We have talked about one in the past. Do remember which one? It was a member bonus episode, and it was a heist film.
• 39:40
  And it is called the the hot rock.
• 39:42
  Andy Nelson: That was an adaptation.
• 39:44
  Pete Wright: Robert Redford. That is another of these, books. Donald e Westlake is an interesting, writer because he does write under his own name, but he also has a bunch of pseudonyms. Rolf Passer, Richard Stark, which is the one that he used for this one. Alan Marshall, James Blue, Ben Christopher, John Dexter, Andrew Shaw, Edwin West, John b Allen, Don Holliday, Kurt Clark, Barbara Wilson, Tucker Coe, PN Castor, Timothy j Culver, J Morgan Cunningham, and Samuel Holt, and then Judson Jack Carmichael.
• 40:19
  Those are all pseudonyms that he writes under. Like, why That's crazy. So many. It's so strange. Right?
• 40:29
  Very weird. Very, very weird.
• 40:31
  Andy Nelson: That is crazy. I don't I mean, I I understand some use of, you know, writing pseudonymously for you know, there there are some legitimate reasons to to do so, but that's crazy having so many. That's a that's, you know, dissociative identity territory.
• 40:49
  Pete Wright: Going on. Yeah. Something's going on. Anyway, this is based this is based on the Parker novel, the seventh. And Parker is a character that, he has done a number of books in.
• 41:01
  When we talked about the hot rock, that was in the John Dortmundur series of books. That was, Redford's character's name. But the Parker series is a totally different, set of books. And the Parker series, they have made a number of different films, and I'm just curious if you've seen any other. The first one is the one that, was done right before this, point blank.
• 41:22
  Did you see point blank with Lee Marvin?
• 41:25
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I did not see point blank, but I did see the next remake of this particular book, which was payback with Mel Gibson.
• 41:34
  Pete Wright: The okay. So you saw that one. And in both cases, let's see, in in point blank, the Parker character's name is changed to Walker. Then there's a film called Mise A Sac with Michael Constantine. Instead of Parker, he's playing Georges.
• 41:49
  The split, Jim Brown is now McClain. In the outfit, Robert Duvall plays Parker, but his name is Macklin. Yeah. Let's see. In slay ground, Peter Coyote is Parker, but his name is changed to stone.
• 42:04
  Like, they change it every time. Payback, the one that you just mentioned, Mel Gibson is Parker, but he's changed to Porter. And not until we have Parker, the film in 2013, Jason Statham plays Parker and is the first time that is actually named Parker.
• 42:23
  Andy Nelson: That's so funny. I haven't seen many of these. These are just not
• 42:29
  Pete Wright: I've seen none of them. The, you know, I I well, other than the hot rock, which isn't a Parker novel. Yeah. So of the Parker novels, I've seen I did see payback. I did see payback, and I saw point blank.
• 42:40
  So I've seen the same two you've seen.
• 42:42
  Andy Nelson: Well, we do have one more that's coming, and that is another adaptation of the Hunter, point break, payback now. It is a Shane Black film called play dirty, directed by Shane Black, written by Anthony Bagharazzi, and Chuck Mondri with Shane, starring Mark Wahlberg as Parker. Okay. He's staying Parker. He's staying with Parker.
• 43:06
  So there you go.
• 43:07
  Pete Wright: Well, Shane Black is really drawn to him. And it's interesting because he usually writes his own stuff, but, you know, I I he's adapting. But he and Robert Downey Junior have actually been trying to do a number of projects, both film and TV in the Parker series. So I wonder is
• 43:23
  Andy Nelson: It was that one to do originally it was originally Robert Downey Junior that was slated to play Parker in this particular movie, but my hunch is doctor Doom took that off the table.
• 43:33
  Pete Wright: Well and I'm wondering if he's producing still. Like, does it say is he still on as a producer?
• 43:37
  Andy Nelson: Oh, that's a good question. Let's see. Yeah. Robert Downey Junior. He's EP.
• 43:42
  Pete Wright: Okay. There you go. So yeah. Anyway, that's just the Parker books. I mean, this is a writer who has ton of crime fiction, comic capers, sci fi once in a while, and a lot of the and and then also has just done screenwriting and adaptations of other people's work.
• 44:00
  Like, he is the one who adapted the grifters for screen in '91. Fantastic, writer and storyteller, and definitely somebody I need to dig into more because every time I watch one of the stories, I just genuinely really enjoy it.
• 44:16
  Andy Nelson: So Yeah. Me too. And I love these series these book series. Like, give me one of these book series. I'll just eat it for lunch.
• 44:22
  I love having a character that I can follow over. It's like Reacher and, you know Any
• 44:26
  Pete Wright: of Right. Reacher, Parker,
• 44:28
  Andy Nelson: Bond, Ryan.
• 44:29
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. I hear Alright.
• 44:32
  Andy Nelson: They just need
• 44:33
  Pete Wright: to come up with better names for the shows because they're
• 44:36
  Andy Nelson: all too similar. Don't care for it. No. Alright. What are we doing next?
• 44:41
  Pete Wright: I think that's it. So, we'll be right back. But first, our credits.
• 44:56
  Andy Nelson: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Ziggy, the magnetic buzz, Abe's, royal novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at the -numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m d b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
• 45:33
  Pete Wright: Picture this, my friend. We are about to pull off the heist of the century. We're going to infiltrate Letterboxd HQ and make off with the ultimate prize, lifetime memberships for the both of us. I've got the plan all mapped out. We'll slip past security, crack their codes, and be swimming in unlimited access to the world's largest film database before they even know what hit them.
• 45:54
  Just imagine it. With these memberships, we'll have personalized recommendations, the power to connect with fellow film buffs across the globe, and the bragging rights that come with being part of an exclusive club. It's the score of a lifetime, and I want you by my side. Wait. Wait a minute.
• 46:10
  Hold on just a second. As I'm going over the details of our master plan, I I just had a revelation. I have been digging into Letterbox's membership options, and you know what? This is actually an incredible deal. I mean, why are we even bothering with this heist when we could just sign up and get all these perks at such a fantastic price?
• 46:27
  Get this. With a free account, we already have access to unlimited films, diary entries, reviews, ratings, lists, and it's a pretty good solid foundation for any movie lover. But for just $19 a year, that's less than the cost of a monthly movie night, we can upgrade to Letterbox Pro and take our film game to the next level. With Pro, we will be living the ad free life with personalized stat pages that showcase our cinematic expertise. We can filter by our favorite streaming services and get alerts when films on our watch list arrive on those platforms.
• 46:56
  It's like having our own personal movie informant. And if we really wanna live like the film elite, we can become a Letterbox patron for $49 a year. That's the VIP pass to the most exclusive corners of the site. We can customize our posters, backdrops, and even our profile pics. It's like having our own private film festival twenty four seven.
• 47:15
  But here's the kicker. As avid listeners of the Next Real Film Podcast, we can score a sweet 20% discount on both pro and patron memberships. And get this, it even works on renewals. It's like they're practically begging us to join. So why are we even considering this risky heist when we can just sign up and get all these incredible perks at such a fantastic price?
• 47:34
  Plus an extra 20% off? It's like we're getting paid to be film buffs. I say we ditch the heist plan and just sign up for Letterbox Pro or Patron. We'll be swimming in exclusive features, insider benefits, and the admiration of our fellow movie lovers. And with that generous discount from the next real Com / letterbox, it's like we're pulling off the ultimate cinematic coup without even breaking a sweat.
• 47:55
  So what do you say, partner? Let's put down the blueprints and pick up that promo code. We'll be the smartest film enthusiasts on the block, and we won't even need a getaway car. It's time to make it official. Enjoy the letterbox delete.
• 48:06
  Nextwheel.com/letterboxed. Trust me. This is the best plan we've ever had.
• 48:21
  Andy Nelson: Alright, Andy. Box office, how'd it do? Did it did it make boatloads of money that you're excited to talk about in detail?
• 48:35
  Pete Wright: Boats boatloads of money that we could, fill a stadium with and then steal.
• 48:39
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 48:40
  Pete Wright: Yeah. You know, it's so frustrating. This is yet another film that has proved very difficult to find much information. For this film, I couldn't find diddly as far as what Fleming spent to make it, nor could I find any info about how well it did. The only thing that I could find is that it opened 11/04/1968.
• 48:56
  That's it.
• 48:57
  Andy Nelson: What is a half million dollars in 1968 in today's dollars?
• 49:03
  Pete Wright: $19.68 dollars is 4 and a half million.
• 49:06
  Andy Nelson: Okay. Well, that's a that's a at least we can say some number. The amount of money that they stole
• 49:13
  Pete Wright: There you go. So let's just hope the movie made it that
• 49:16
  Andy Nelson: at least that much. Right. Right.
• 49:18
  Pete Wright: Right. I'm sure that's how it works.
• 49:20
  Andy Nelson: Well, I I really enjoyed this movie. I thought it was it just you know, sometimes you just throw stuff on the list that you haven't seen, and you get lucky. And I feel like this is one of those that we got lucky. It it was it's a good looking film, and it was fun. Did some interesting new things.
• 49:37
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I had a fun time with it. And, you know, I think that it it spurred me on to watch to watch more of Donald d Westlake's adaptations. I might just like watch all the Parker films. I think that'd be kind of an interesting maybe that's
• 49:50
  Andy Nelson: a series we should do at some point. What great series.
• 49:54
  Pete Wright: That would be cool. But also, like, I just I had a great time with this story. And so this was a fun one. I'm glad that you ended up picking it. So, yeah.
• 50:02
  It's it's definitely worth checking out.
• 50:04
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 50:05
  Pete Wright: Alright. Well, we'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie, wrapping up this return to 1968 crime films, Anthony Mann's A Dandy in Aspic.
• 50:20
  Trailer: A Dandy in Aspic. Dandy in Aspik stars Lawrence Harvey, Mia Farrow, Tom Courtney, the Dandy. A double agent with orders to track down and assassinate himself. His mission is murder. His victim, himself.
• 51:02
  A dandy and aspic in Panavision and Technicolor.
• 51:12
  Andy Nelson: Alright. Listen up. We're putting together a crew, a special kind of crew, one that appreciates the art of the steel, the perfect cut, the cinematic masterpiece. I'm talking about the Next Real family of film podcasts membership program. And we need somebody who can handle the intel, early access to the goods before anyone else, someone who can slip past the firewalls and get their hands on bonus episodes and in episode content the rest of the world only dreams of.
• 51:40
  You in? We'll we'll also need a getaway driver, someone who can navigate the crowded podcast landscape and deliver a clean, ad free listening experience, a personalized podcast feed direct to your ear holes. No distractions. You think you can handle that? And we're gonna need someone on the inside, access to the livestream recording sessions, eyes and ears in the Discord, exclusive channels buzzing with behind the scenes intel.
• 52:08
  You'll be right there with us, shaping the narrative. The target, the next real family of film Podcast membership program. The payoff? Satisfaction of directly supporting the podcast you love and a mountain of exclusive episodes and content that'll make you the envy of every cinephile. So are you in or are you out?
• 52:29
  Visit the next Real Family Film podcast today. Just head to truestory.fm/join for the details. Don't miss out because this is your chance to be a part of something big. Letterbox, Andy. You know, it's letterbox time.
• 52:44
  It's our it it's time for us to peel back stars from other movies, claw them back, and apply them to this movie. What are you gonna do for the split?
• 52:55
  Pete Wright: I had a lot of fun with this one. It's a very easygoing heist film. It didn't, like, break the mold for heist films for me, but I think I like, in the scope of what we talked about in the sixties series that we just did or of heist films and crime films that we're talking about there, like, it still is doing enough here that I just I had a lot of fun with that. I had really good time. I think three and a half in a heart is a good place for this one.
• 53:17
  I I found myself enjoying it quite a bit.
• 53:19
  Andy Nelson: Andy, Split's a star for the split. Look at you.
• 53:22
  Pete Wright: What's in the title?
• 53:23
  Andy Nelson: Look at you. I came in in my head pledging, whatever Andy says, I'm gonna do a little bit more. I'm gonna give it four stars and a heart. I really enjoyed it. I think the things that they end up doing with the movie that that gave me the most joy are things I've never seen in other heist movies.
• 53:41
  And I thought that was that was really neat. So, yeah, four stars and a heart. This was this is a worthy watch.
• 53:47
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It was it was a fun one. Alright. Well, that will average out to 3.75 and a heart on our account. We'll round that up to four stars and a heart over at Letterboxd.
• 54:00
  And you can find me there at Soda Creek Film. You can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about the split? We would love to hear your thoughts on this one. Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
• 54:13
  Andy Nelson: When the movie ends Our conversation begins.
• 54:31
  Pete Wright: Letterbox give it, Andrew. As Letterbox always doeth.
• 54:35
  Andy Nelson: Okay. Can I can I go first? Do it. Because this is going first is appropriate because I'm picking the first Letterbox review of this film on Letterboxd. I I mean, Letterboxd we we love Letterboxd.
• 54:51
  It just surprises me every time I look at these old reviews. This one is from the 08/12/2009. Were you on Letterbox in 02/2009? I don't think so. I was not.
• 55:01
  No. So this comes from Paul Carroupe with a four star review. Solid caper effort has Jim Brown robbing a football stadium, irony, with a veritable dirty dozen reunion squad of Ernest Borg, nine Donald Southern Sutherland, Jack Plugman, and Warren Oates. Most of the action takes place after the heist with Brown's girlfriend shot the money missing. Underrated for sure, though it does get a bit draggy in the middle.
• 55:24
  Despite a couple pop songs, Quincy Jones score is less annoying than usual. Oh, ouch. We didn't even mention Quincy Jones score. No. We didn't.
• 55:36
  Pete Wright: I I enjoyed it. Quincy Jones, you know, definitely has a a style in this, particularly this era of the scores feeling very sixties ish. You know, there's there's just kind of this, I don't know, is frivolity the right word? It's just the the music style is just very bouncy. Yeah.
• 55:56
  And I I enjoyed it here. Funny enough, I actually watched another heist film over the last, week called The Anderson Tapes, which he also did the score for. That one came out three years later. And it was more noticeable to me in that film, the score, but I still liked it. I don't know.
• 56:14
  I I generally like Jones' scores. They're not always like, I wouldn't say like award winning types of scores, but I have fun with it. And I thought I had fun with it here.
• 56:22
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I did too. Yeah. I don't find it annoying here at all.
• 56:25
  Pete Wright: Good. Good. I've got a review that has no stars, but it does have a heart. By Dankwit. Saw this almost three years ago, and it still utterly blows my mind that one of the first film roles of an all time great athlete was him spearheading a heist on one of the stadiums he used to play at.
• 56:42
  The NFL used to give zero f's. Shake my head. Yeah. I I think that's another point that we didn't bring up. The fact that Jim Brown is this former athlete, and here he is acting, and he's stealing money from football.
• 56:56
  From his own state. Like, that is just so perfect. I Yeah. There was a bit of meta humor with that that wasn't that we didn't bring up, but I think it's definitely there.
• 57:06
  Andy Nelson: Well, also because it's largely lost on me because I know he was a football player, but I could not have told you anything about team dynamics where he was, you know, at that time. So
• 57:16
  Pete Wright: I I know. I think that that may be why we both come into it that way because neither of us knew him as a football player first. Right. I mean,
• 57:24
  Andy Nelson: OJ was the guy in the luggage commercials, right, before he became famous.
• 57:29
  Pete Wright: That's true. For other stuff. Anyway,
• 57:34
  Andy Nelson: thanks, Letterboxd.