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Why Pastors Should See a Therapist · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: When ate on the Indiagram, I like intensity, I like confronting issues, I like to fight for justice and that kind of thing.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm also a bit of a feeling junkie, and I tend to avoid feelings I don't want to feel.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I use food, you know.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I feel a little down, I'll say, oh well, let's have pizza tonight.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I immediately get a dopamine squirt and feel better.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so God and I are just working on.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just need to manage the energy I enter a moment with better.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned, unfortunately, the hard way lately and probably just wasn't paying attention before that.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I affect most of the rooms I'm in because of what I'm there for.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want to bring the Prince of Peace.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to move the ball down the field and I want to raise up people that have confidence and courage and all that, but it's it's about meeting them where they are and moving them there, not doing a cannonball in the middle of the pool.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's something literally like I had I probably had three or four pages in my journal this morning.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: God and I just talking about this stuff.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I believe Jesus got excited, but I don't think I don't think he ever was emotionally toxic.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I can be at times.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can be unhelpful at times.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if I've ever been that way with any of you, please forgive me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, coming in from the gym, I'm all on on endorphins and whatever.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just all rah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for what we're here to do, that's probably not the best gear to be in.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: With two ladies present today, as you can hear, I guess our pastor Chip felt comfortable getting a few things off his chest.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Today we welcome back two guests who've both joined us on the airways before: Dr.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Cassie Reid, a licensed therapist, and Christy Henderson, who alongside her husband leads a church from a place of wholeness and health.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of sharing on this one.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Joey opens up about his experiences with scrupulosity and how it affected him just seven years ago.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And much like Joey, Christy has her own similar experiences.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: For both of them stretching all the way back into childhood.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Chip also shares a bit about an anxiety crash he went through years ago.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: This kind of openness about mental health is so often lacking in the church and too often equated with weak faith.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: As the transparent sharing unfolds in this episode, you'll also hear some honest criticism of the church we're all a part of, alongside some beautiful pondering of what things could look like if we could better bridge the gap between mental health and the mission of the church.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: The very thing that I was shamed for then became this catalyst.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: Now we want to lead in a different way, we want to minister in a different way from authenticity and tenderness, maybe like Jesus did.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: Well, imagine that.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: When you make it look easy, you shame my people.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Repetitious salvation prayers, I would say it, and then I would think, wait a second, am I supposed to be addressing Jesus or God?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Or, okay, I addressed the right person.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Did I mean it?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Was I thinking about my words, or was I just saying words?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Someone said, been there, done that, learn some good breathing techniques, and take those quiet moments to pray the fear away.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_09: That makes me want to rage.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_11: Hey, did I just rage bait you, Cassie?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_10: You totally did, because I get so frustrated when people it's so harmful to say pray harder.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_10: That causes such damage.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_10: Just read your Bible.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: What's wrong with you?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome to the uh Mental Health and the Mission of the Church podcast.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Again, just got some really, really, really good friends on with me today.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about the same old stuff, man.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about how to bring the awesome insights that are coming from psychology and science and all those kind of things, but bring them into uh a working, uh, God-honoring partnership with the church and the assignment that we have, the tasks that we have.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'm pretty sure all of us on this call or this this podcast today would say that we believe those two things make a really, really, really good partnership.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, with some adjustments, I mean, you know, you got you gotta you gotta weed out some stuff and maybe pull in some stuff.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh we've all benefited from that union between uh what I call sanctified psychology and uh biblical solid spirit-led Christianity.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna have a cool conversation today and uh just appreciate you checking it out.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Joey, take us away.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Ironically, Chip, you were just listening to a take on church discipleship from a Christian therapist and texted me and said, Man, this is this is part of the problem.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: This is part of so I just think that's interesting that you were just listening.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Cause because we oft we often talk about the problem that the church contributes, but we rarely talk about the problem that mental health mindedness only contributes.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, everybody everybody that's on here right now, think about if you'd want to be involved in that.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I was 10 minutes in and I text Joe and I said, We gotta do a counter podcast, man.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we just got to because it plays perfectly into the whole point I'm trying to make.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Don't want to get distracted by it, or we'll stay there, but we just gotta get the two worlds on the same page.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so like like Chip said, we are amongst kindred spirits.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know Dr.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie and Christy are meeting each other and face to face for the first time.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna be sharing some of my past struggles with scrupulosity and tell you guys what that is.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a cartoon or something?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it is actually.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna talk cartoons.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, man.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_09: A surgical device.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Surgical device.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm gonna get some psychological expertise from our two mental health experts, and we're gonna look at healthy and unhealthy church cultures.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: The context of that discussion will be Christy and Pastor Chip Henderson's journey of being very unhealthy, finding health, and then changing how they ministered.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and they actually Chris, so Christy is here solo, not with uh her husband, Pastor Chip, but they shared their story in a two-parter released in February, so I would check that out.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: I I want to ask uh Dr.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie and Chip uh a quick question.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Think of it as a quick hot take.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've wanted to ask this for a while, and then Chip, it came up in a recording that we just did yesterday because there's a lot of people they don't understand depression like I understand it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: They don't under some people don't understand anxiety like I understand it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people don't understand OCD, how I've experienced it.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people don't understand being suicidal like I've experienced it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't understand an OCD or irrational thinking when it comes to hurting other people and then more specifically hurting a kid.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: So dear friends of mine that were a part of our church, they've since moved away.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: But I remember him reaching out to me and said, you know, just lift up my wife.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: She's really plagued with thoughts of hurting her children, you know, hurting hurting our two little boys.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: And she's a great mother, you know, so she was simply heavily burdened by what is going on in my mind.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why why am I having these thoughts?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then Chip, I I'm pretty sure people will have already listened to the episode with Pastor Chris Russo, and he shared similar uh experiences as far as having even a visual of of what he would do with his baby, and and that destroyed his soul.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: What in the world is going on?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because I don't have any reference point for that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh Cassie, you're gonna be on deck because I I I have a hard time wrapping my head around that myself.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can make sense out of the fear connection to OCD and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it's hard for me to make the jump to wanting to hurt your kids.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's a way to put that puzzle together, but I haven't figured it out yet.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: You got any thoughts on that?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_10: I think of it spiritually.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, like steal, kill, destroy, you know, is kind of the thing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_10: And I think that sometimes what I find is that it takes you to the worst possible thought.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_10: So as a mother, I think, oh my gosh, like no way.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_10: Like anybody tries to touch my baby and I'm, you know, mom arming it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_10: And but I I think that's why it becomes so extreme.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_10: Because I feel like um there's a lot to be said probably about OCD and a lot of those things.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_10: But sometimes when thoughts, intrusive thoughts like that come, the whole thing is it's such a distraction.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_10: Cause you're over here trying to manage that, kind of get that tidy in a box.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_10: And when you have a thought of that extremity, how do you even put that in a box?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_10: Like it's such a like it takes all of your focus to think like I could be capable of hurting my kid.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_10: So to me, that's the psychology of it, is just such a all encompassing.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if it has what what I can relate to is a fear that I'm gonna do or say something that I know I'm not gonna do or say, but just the thought of it is like, would you actually do that?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: I never cross over to, oh man, I'm scared that I would actually do that.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: But like, for instance, being, you know, talking to someone um that I don't really know, and and having a weird thought of like saying something disrespectful to them, or being in a room with a crowd and like yelling out the F word or something like that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like I thought, like, what I actually do, and and sometimes there's been instances where it causes a disruption, but uh, but I'm never thinking, oh, I may do that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if there's any connection with what we're talking about.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's just me kind of speculating a little bit.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a thought I had when Cassie was sharing is and it and it kind of helped the puzzle click a little bit for me, a lot of what we would call brain disorders, not just psychological disorders, but brain disorders, physiological stuff, which OCD has that component to it, some depression, anxiety, bipolar, that kind of stuff, that have a brain component.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thought that hit me if the brain's ability to filter and protect, kind of like the boundaries of of what it considers appropriate and realistic and doable, if that's kind of not working too well where Cassie took it, then it makes sense that the enemy would take advantage of that and just drop some bombs in there.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: That normally your filter would be like, you know, forget it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whatever.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that helped me to kind of Christy.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Have you run into people or anything that was that extreme?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, clearly, um, not on the clinical side at all, um, as you are, Kathy, but I just feel like the intrusive thoughts, period, are something that a lot of people deal with.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've dealt with that to some degree.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: But for me, it's been a lot about just because of the empathetic part of me and being exposed to trauma like um traumatic events, like going into the prisons and hearing the stories of parents who have hurt their children, or I mean, even just the worst things that you can imagine, they l kind of land in my have landed in my soul at times, and the thoughts can just pop up.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's not anything necessarily that I would ever desire to do, but just the thought of, oh my god, what if this happened?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what if, you know, what are these people dealing with, and what if that happened in my family?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so, but of course, clearly it comes and it goes, you know, those kinds of things.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like a lot of mine were rooted in even ministry being in ministry and being there for people who walked through the most traumatic experiences.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: My body held that at times.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_10: So I carried their own.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_10: That makes so much sense.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Jumping to the next little icebreaker spark of discussion.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Here's what sort of advice was given on a church chat during a Sunday morning service.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So somebody basically says, Hey everyone, hope all is well.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: Please pray for me.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: My anxiety has been causing health scares.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Also, felt this weirdness in my chest like a sharp pain that went away.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Someone said, been there, done that, learn some good breathing techniques, and take those quiet moments to pray the fear away.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_09: That makes me want to rage.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if we can get that person to come teach a class.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_09: No, no, Chip, no.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_11: Hey, did I just rage bait you, Cassie?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_10: You did.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_10: You totally did, because I get so frustrated when people tell it's so harmful to say pray harder.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_10: Like I just want that causes such damage.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_10: Just read your Bible.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's wrong with you?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh and I I even hate the entryway.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Been there done that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: That seems just flipping.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: That seems flippant.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, been there done that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: That that really seems condescending.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Joey, you're Joey, you used to just have a bad day every once in a while.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: When are you making such a big deal about it?
• 14:37
  unknown: Right.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_10: Can I tell you the best question to ask in that situation if you're ever faced with it?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I love asking this question, and Chip, it like you weigh in too, but it's like, I'd be like, okay, tell me exactly what that feels like, looks like, and is like for you.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_10: Because I have experienced panic, I have experienced anxiety, I've experienced that even as a therapist.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_10: But how it looks for you and how it looks for me is probably different.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_10: So help me understand that for you.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_10: Because that been there, done that is like, how do you know?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_10: How do you know that you've had sharp pain in your chest?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_10: How do you know what this person?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, that's vulnerability, gold star to that person for just saying, hey, pray for me.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_10: I have anxiety, I have sharp pain in my chest, I'm having physical symptoms based on this thing.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_10: So it's like, I want to know, okay, tell me more about that.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_10: Like, tell me what that's like for you.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_10: Give me a dig in your shoes with that.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_10: And because then it just gives you such context.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Cassie, even if you're not a therapist, that's a perfectly fair, safe question to ask.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're not entering into some, you know, brain surgery.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're just showing curiosity, openness, and and I love Erickson's definition of love, non-judgmental positive regard.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're you're kind of opening a safe place for the person.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's therapeutic, but it's still a very safe honoring.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_10: Do you know who I want to actually, I want to give the person therapy?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_10: Because I want to make the fact that you want to say, get been there, done that, tells me that you got a lot of junk in your trunk you haven't dealt with because you need to show that you have power and that you've overcome.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I don't think anxiety is something you technically overcome per se.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_10: I feel like it's like you ch you do, you do tackle it, you do face it, you do, but it's like to expect it to never come back.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_10: It's like grief.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_10: You can't expect a wave of grief to not hit you 15 years after somebody's died.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_10: You smell a smell or you see something or hear something.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_10: So it's like teaching people that it's a period at the end of the sentence isn't really fair.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that you'd say that, Cassie.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I um I crashed.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's probably been 12 years ago.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I could go into all the whys.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was traveling and whatever and came on staff at Seacoast and didn't have a job that was defined very well.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Bottom line is I didn't know where start was and stop was, and I loved everything I was doing virtually, maybe 90%.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my body tried to warn me, my wife tried to warn me, some of my friends tried to warn me, God tried to warn me, and I had a classic textbook, adrenaline crash.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what you just said is interesting because that whole that statement about it never really goes away.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just recently I felt the faint echoes of it.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I and as soon as I started to feel some of it for a day or two, I thought, I know who this is, I know what this is.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean I'm sure there's a spiritual component to it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: But but the truth is for me, it's when I slide back into the unhealthy rhythms and don't do my healthy rhythms as consistently.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I've made some adjustments and already feel better.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um already feel uh, you know, okay, dude.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because if you've ever been in a really bad spot, that's part of what happens.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes this self-triggering thing.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you fear the fear, which increases the fear that makes you fear the fear, that makes you have more fear.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I and I and I was watching that thinking, okay, dude, don't get all weirded out that you're going there again.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: But make some adjustments.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Make some adjustments.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I heard the analogy that it's like being on a bridge over a bunch of sharks and alligators, and knowing that the bridge will open up and you'll fall in if you get anxious.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then so you're anxious about getting anxious.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can tell you it sucks, dude.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Panic attacks and all that.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, they suck bad.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was real glad I believed in medication at the time.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my lord, man.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let me go back to the original point Joey is making.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you can do it without outing anybody, what's the most inappropriate, aggravate you way somebody handled a situation?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: Oh gosh.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it was kind of along the same line.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: And somebody said, you know, if you'll just if you'll just memorize enough description of Bible verses, there will be no room in your mind for depression.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's Jesus right there.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, come on, Christy.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's God, man.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: What are you talking about?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's in the Beatitudes.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's godly advice.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Come on now.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: If your mind is full enough with scripture, there's no room left for depression.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: They really that's a that's a neurological expert right there.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: I've not heard that one before, Christy.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: I've not heard that one.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good one.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_05: I won't never forget it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_05: I bet not.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's real painful.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't you would you would you all agree that a lot of that, number one, it it goes to not understanding spirit, soul, and body.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: It goes to not understanding I was saved, I'm being saved, I'm yet to be saved, the whole renovation, restoration of the soul, mind, will, and emotions, all that stuff.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: But also the the the body side of it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even I would say it this way right now, as I look at the church.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: The church is, we're kind of catching up to, you know, the soul needs renovating, you know, renewing the mind.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we're still pretty information fixated.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're not embracing experience and community and all that kind of thing as well as we could.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we're still behind the curve understanding the role the body plays in our psychology and physiology and how that affects how we think, feel, and act.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, would you all agree with that?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_09: Mm-hmm.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_09: For sure.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my my childhood experience, like what I'm gonna lay out here.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Remember, this is a child into and and then it extends into early adulthood, and I have zero clue that this is mental illness.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Zero clue.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I had scrupulosity for listeners.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: This is the definition is an obsessive-compulsive disorder involving pathological guilt, religious or moral obsessions, and compulsive rituals.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Symptoms include intense fear of sinning, excessive confession, and intrusive thoughts.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: It is treated with cognitive behavioral therapy, exposure and response prevention, uh, ERP, and then medications such as SSRIs.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll give you and are you reading that or do you memorize that?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I'm reading that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I read that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, dude, that's impressive.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_10: He's just really in touch with his diagnosis.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I remember that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_10: That's right.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not reading.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not reading.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I actually, Chip, in my bad Christian days when we were doing that podcast, I wrote I wrote a memoir, and it's called Fundamentalists, and basically talking about my not only mental illness, but also combining that with the toxic religion that I was brought up in.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll give you uh a few examples of what this looked like.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then I believe, I don't know if y'all have heard of Andrea Yates, I believe that is scrupulosity at its absolute worst.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll I'll get to that because it's why she killed her kids.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: She she literally drowned four or five of her kids.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: So um that kind of stuff just breaks my heart, man.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: I watched a documentary on it, and it's just it it sunk my heart too, for sure.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I went out with a girl my junior year, and uh she she was Baptist, and she and I really liked her, and she was telling me, you know, that she was since you named what she was.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Pentecostal.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: I was uh going to a church of God church, and she she literally said, Yeah, I like coming to God, wow.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she said, I I like coming to y'all's church, you know, because she's been to our youth.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Group, she said, but you know, we just believe in once saved, always saved.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, it's kind of how your youth pastor teaches and stuff.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a little too hardcore, you know.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: We believe once you and and I'm thinking, okay, first of all, I can't go out with her anymore.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: That would be a sin because she believes in once saved, always saved.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I pretty much just for everybody, what what did Church of God teach you?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Church of God is you could lose your salvation by sinning and not repenting from it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: So basically you could actually how big a sin would it take?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you could literally have a lustful thought driving a car and get hit by another car, die, and you're you're toast forever.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: It just if you have an unfortunate.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't it?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so there wasn't technology back then, so I literally physically ghosted her.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: Never asked her out again.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: She was interested in me.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then the first ghosting, y'all, this is this is it's it almost still kills me to say this, but I'm I'm past it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: I had this thought that there's a verse, and I forget which epistle it's in, but if you know the good to do and you don't do it, you sin.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: You you are sinning.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I thought that the good would be for me to tell her that she's wrong about once saved, always saved.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And until I do that, I have unrepentant sin on my heart.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote this poor girl a letter, snail mail, a year later.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_09: The ghostry service.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: A year freaking later to tell her why her theology was wrong and why it's my responsibility to tell her.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's one example.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Joey, sending that letter was sin.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you were unsaved.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: You lost yourself in that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_10: You better repent real quick, Joey.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_10: Repent real quick for that.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: So repetitious salvation prayers, and this this is how it got awful is I would say it, and then I would think, wait a second, am I supposed to be addressing Jesus or God?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think I addressed Jesus.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I should be talking to the Heavenly Father.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: Or, okay, I addressed the right person.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Did I mean it?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Was I thinking about my words, or was I just saying words?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And God bless my dad's soul.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: He died last summer, but he never was freed from this.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so he taught me tools from his brokenness and how to deal with this.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: He said, Joey, a scripture that I've always leaned on was Matthew 7, 7, asking you shall receive.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: So here's what I've done, son.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I I've I've asked God for salvation, and then I wrote it down, and then every time I doubt that I asked, I put a check mark on it.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: So he's literally teaching me OCD ways of handling this.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I go back to it and I put a check mark and I remember it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I was not freed from this until I think some major revelation came that if God knows everything, he knows my heart, he knows I'd do anything to be saved, I'd sacrifice anything, and I gotta just trust that God knows because if I was locked into that, ooh, I hope I said it the right way, did it the right way, the it's just it's never ending because I can always find something that I I did wrong.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the biggest shocker for me is I had outgrown that I'm gonna I'm gonna say seven to ten years.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And this just shows what happens when the brain gets sick.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: In 2019, so I'm like I said, I'm probably nine years removed from this crazy town obsessive prayers and asking God for salvation.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: My mental health crisis chip, it came back in full force, and I was literally thinking, what is happening to me?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've been past this for a decade, and I remember being in my parents' living room, and I kept leaving the room to say the prayer again, probably every 10 minutes.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, No, I said something wrong.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: No, I didn't say that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think you brought it up when you were in the hospital.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure when I came to see you in the hospital, you brought it up.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: And what's interesting is once I learned about scrupulosity, there's an NFL player that came out sharing about his scrupulosity.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: There was a newspaper article about scrupulosity.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: But Andrea Yates, so she drowned her five children, uh, Noah, seven years old, John, five years old, Paul, three, Luke two, and Mary six months.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Her her motive.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: She suffered from severe postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, but she believed that she was an evil mother and that her children were unrighteous because of her.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: So she told psychiatrists and police that she believed that if her children grew up they would be damned to eternal hell.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: But by killing them while they were young and innocent, she would be saving their souls.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because of my experience, I do not doubt for a second that's what was going on in her mind.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Not a second.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: If you look at pi if you look at pictures of her in the courtroom and video footage, she is broken.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: She is a mess.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_10: Would you say fear though is the root of that?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_10: Like if you think about like that going in and out of the room, that makes you think like I'm afraid that I won't be saved.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_10: Or like this ultimate goal, this ultimate thing is what I'm not gonna meet.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_10: It's not, it's what I'm not gonna match.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_10: I'm not gonna be enough.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I think insecurity, I think fear.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_10: There's a lot of things at play there that really are manifesting in such a strong way with that.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_10: It's like fear of being bad, you know, fear of making a mistake, fear of doing it wrong.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: And my and my fear was we're we're told that we're saved through faith.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I read faith to be pretty unshakable certainty.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: So until I had that, I thought I was doomed to hell.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you never get you at least I don't think you never get absolute 100% because faith is believing in what you don't see.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_10: It's an act every day.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was constantly in the dangers of hell because I knew that I had doubt.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we're all gonna have doubt sometimes.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: It it sucked, man.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Couple thoughts, Cassie.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've come to believe, and and I, and I and I kind of practice, you know, on different scenarios that I've run into and whatever.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think everything goes back to fear.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_10: Yes.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Every everything.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_10: A lot, yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_10: I would probably agree with you with that.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: What either directly or indirectly.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, the cool thing is love, perfect love, which is one source, drives that fear out.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of cool that the two most powerful forces in our lives are fear and love.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's one thought.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: The other thought, Christy, is um when I was back pastoring my church up in a small town, Georgetown, and uh I, you know, I'm charismatic.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I like to, I would say if I was backed in a corner, I'm Pentecostal by experience, not theology.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I found the Pentecostal denominations, it's what I found, so I'm gonna say it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: They were the unhealthiest pastors to be around.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I spent most of my time around Baptist people because they they were just kind of normal.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: The longer I've been at this, the more I've watched it, the more I've moved in and out of different circles, I've come to realize that your theology matters.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, eternal security is what I tell people they, oh, so you're eternal security, I say, well, you know, I I don't know.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's one, two verses, actually, one that I can't get my head wrapped around.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I am definitely not eternal insecurity.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: If if I had to label myself, I'd say I'm eternal security.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm fine with that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was at a training thing one time, and I couldn't figure out why I am not connecting.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: What, why, why do I feel like I'm on a different page than they are?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was three days in, it was a it was a a four-day thing.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I was three days in and somebody said something, and it hit me.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh my gosh, these people are Armenian, which is you can get it, lose it, get it, lose it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and I began to think back through the time I'd been there, and I and I watched how it showed up in places.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: It eroded the foundation of security.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_10: I was just gonna ask, what did that do to you?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_10: Because like I think to me, I thought they were idiots.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I I I went up to the guy afterwards.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm supposed to go twice a year for the next two years.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I went up to the guy and said, dude, I I'm gonna come back one time, but if it doesn't get any better, I ain't coming back.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_10: But what happened?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_10: I think my question more is like, what happened in your body?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_10: Like, what was the physiological like response?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_10: Because I think that's something to note.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about me or Joey?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_10: You, I was saying, but Joey too, because it's like when you get in that situation, when you've been there and overcome it, there's still probably parts of you I think that the enemy would want to bring that in again and be like, okay, but did you, are you sure?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_10: And it's like, what does that do to your physiological body?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_10: Because I think if we can get those signs down to know, like, whoa, whoa, what like you said, I still did something's off.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_10: Like I'm feeling they're saying some things that just don't feel right.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_10: Like, how do you notice that?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I think that's a key piece.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was gonna say this at the beginning of this part.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've never experienced it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't raised in church.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Guilt just doesn't work on me very well.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I should feel guilty for things that I don't.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So my wife and I laugh about that.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, somebody will say, Well, you know, use guilt on them.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, guilt doesn't work, trust me.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: When I hear people talk about it, I have a harder time relating to it because I I've never had an issue with it.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_10: What do you think, Joey?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_10: Like, do you notice that?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_10: Like, do you feel like you can find spots for it now, like or have a sensitivity to it?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_06: To guilt?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_10: Guilt, I guess, yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, shame.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I because I think fibulosity, like it feels like that's what it leans to.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, we talk a lot about joking.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not just guilt.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel guilt occasionally, but not I mean, I could take it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_10: Where it drives your behavior to run in and out of the room or like not to make light of that, but that that's how much.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: About five seconds.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think for me, uh be having a healthy mind again from 2019, I wouldn't be driven by guilt or shame, but I definitely have a lot to work on when it comes to a consistently, like it's just it's a part of the air I breathe that God has delighted in me.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: And for me to love myself and for me to look at my past mistakes as you were freaking human, man.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like you are a human being trying to do the best you could.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And like that's that's not the the air I breathe.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you guys and I and I could say this about almost anybody, but you guys wouldn't believe what Joey used to be like.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was a horrible way to get there, that crash in nine 2019, but he got finally got some psychiatric help that got him on the correct medical cocktail.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, don't forget, part of the problem was me getting off my medication.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you got overconfident, thought you could whip this thing, and if you ever do it again, you're gonna get whipped, all right.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm gonna hurt you.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_10: But that that almost goes back to what you were saying, though, with people will do that, just like that post.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_10: It's like they'll say, Well, you pray harder or like fill your brain with more scripture and there's no room for depression.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_10: It's like, don't take your medication, you don't have enough faith.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_10: And I that also could rage bait me because I'm like, no, no, no, wait, wait, you did that and look where it landed you.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Christy, what are you thinking?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Any about anything?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm going back.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, Joey and I have very similar, it's interesting how similar our stories.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Even your even your Catholic background as a kid.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like I remember you sharing all that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh my gosh, did you?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_07: Joey, were you Catholic?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: Through the third grade?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: I go ahead, Christy.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: My families go way back in Catholicism.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that, I don't think.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: I I think my memory was um that was popping up for me was when I was little, we were in a little Sunday school class, and the teacher was trying to teach us about eternity.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how long is eternity?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, It's like a if the world was made of stone and there was a dove that flew all the way around the world, and every time it got to a certain point, it would go down and touch it with its wings.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: And like once the world was completely like in that way, completely done away with, that's how long eternity would be, which was, you know, it would never.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_04: And in the same breath, she was talking about hell, you know, heaven or hell, but mainly hell.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I there was a terror that entered into my heart and my mind and my body, that if that the torture, the everything that she was talking about, I just it was something, it was an obsessive part of me, even as a little girl.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I cannot imagine, I can't do this.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what do I have to do to not experience?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: And you and you need a guarantee.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: You need I need a guarantee, and yeah, you can't.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: And there wasn't yeah, and there just was none.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we weren't talking about faith or God's love.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: When do you feel like you you started and how, Christy, do you think you started to get a a healthier perspective?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: Way into my adulthood.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was there was an um uh encounter with the Lord, uh, you know, in in high school where I really did experience Jesus through a group of people that really ministered to me.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: And it was the first time I had experienced that unconditional love.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I think there was something that started there, but for the most part, the spirit part can change, but the body part, it takes a while for that to you know to readjust and to rewire.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so it was way into adulthood, and even like honestly, as as grounded as I am today, and even in the moments of 2019 for me, of like my darkest time, there was that you know, that uh reassurance, the assurance of salvation, but it was there was still this way, does he really love me?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, and I think the ambivalence in in my heart of even going back to the way I was raised, my parents, like, are they for me?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: Are they really for me or are they really against me?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_04: Am I in trouble?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_04: Am I not in trouble?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: Am I okay?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_04: And um, all of that played a huge part in that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: That once I did go through some some pretty intense therapy to kind of come into alignment with with that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that was my experience, but it doesn't have to dictate um my belief system anymore.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: So that you know, it's just kind of like peppered in there, the different healing components.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which which word would you use for that part of your journey?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Quick and easy or difficult?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no, it's difficult.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I yeah, it's it's an ongoing thing for me.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm still there are moments where I'm like, hold on, is this all real?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, it's just those fleeting thoughts again, and truth, even intrusive thoughts of, am I doing this thing right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it's fake.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_10: I love that you admit that though, as a pastor's wife.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_10: Like, I think that's so rad because it's like, please say that, you know, that you have doubts, like it take away this whole perfect persona thing where it's like, you know, okay, we have it all together, and you should feel shame until you get to our level.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_10: It's like, no, there's some days I question the whole thing, but you know what?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_10: I keep showing up because I know in my guts that this is what I'm supposed to do.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_10: I keep showing up because there's something inside me that pulls me closer and keep showing up because you know, my spirit says yes.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_10: And I think that's so cool that you're leading people with that mentality.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they can relate more to that than they can uh a happy, cheery, everything's wonderful, and you just walk through it.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because of where I cut my teeth as a Christian in my early twenties, uh it took me a while to learn that.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I I preached a message one time and I think it was biblically true, you might say.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: But afterwards I felt this kind of oppression.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I started to pray and I thought, well, it must have made the devil mad.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the more I prayed, I thought, I don't think this is the devil.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Went on for like two days.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, God, I feel like you're trying to show me something, tell me something, whatever.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like this is the devil.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: What what you know and I was like, God, I'm sorry, whatever I did, whatever I said, I'm so sorry.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, the message was on Sunday, this is Tuesday.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Tuesday, I was praying, and I felt like God finally said what you preached was true.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: But don't you ever make it look that easy again.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: When you make it look easy, you shame my people.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought because you know, back then, this is back in the eighties probably, and we'd preach ourselves happy.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, in in the Pentecostal-ish circles, you know, you you know, whatever, man.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm ashamed of some of it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really am.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not so much, not as much.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now I am a little bit of the content, but not as much the content as the packaging of the content.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_09: The delivery, yeah.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just like God help us, man.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad he doesn't give up on us, man.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm 72 and I'm still learning, man.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I love it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don't ever stop learning, man.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much fun.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Me and uh a book I read in Chat GP today.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've spent hours interacting with this book and my notes from it and ChatGPT, and I am, oh my gosh, I'm learning some cool stuff.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Christy, why don't you why don't you share with Dr.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're interrupting.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know I interrupted.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was the perfect timing.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm a narcissist, man.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is all about me.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm gonna I'm just kidding.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're a narcissist, we love you.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: And we'd love to help you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm gonna send that clip to Brittany and have her put it on social media of just you saying I'm an artist.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_09: Do it on a loop.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in a real narcissist.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: That would be funny, though.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I have to admit.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_10: I'll repost it, Joey.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_10: Don't worry.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_10: Thank you.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, blackmail.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: Don't pick on me anymore, Chip.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um wouldn't care.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: I told you, I told you that stuff doesn't work on me.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_09: He's an eight.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_09: He's an eight.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: Christy, tell Dr.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie a little bit about where you and your husband, Pastor Chip, not this Pastor Chip, obviously, but how you guys minister now due to both of you finding the very unhealthy routines that you guys were in, mind frames that you guys were stuck in.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, may maybe touch on what you both were struggling with, but more than anything, like what how are y'all doing ministry different now?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Oh gosh, in a nutshell.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, really.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I mean, Cassie, there's there's been quite the transformation in in our life and in really in ministry, but in our life first, personally.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the um catalyst for that change came through a lot of pain and through a lot of conflict, um, internal conflict, marriage conflict, and obviously that you know spilled over into ministry conflict and leadership.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, with a long, lifelong um battle with depression, anxiety, a lot of postpartum stuff, but uh really not seeing things eye to eye um and experience in life totally different I'm talking about chip and uh myself.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: It just there was a sense of division um within our marriage and conflict, a lot of shame on me.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um just for being the one who presented as like you couldn't look at me and not tell that I was struggling.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: There wasn't there's no mask wearing for me.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so the depression, the anxiety, all of that was very obvious.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so I was kind of the identified patient, you know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um there was a lot of again just shame on me, but there was a a knowing part inside of me that things were not okay on the external, not just the struggle that I'd carried all of my life, and so the darkness kind of hit us at the hardest point in 2019.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I was turning 47.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_04: All of it just really caught up with us, with me, and had dealt with suicidal audiation for a long, long time, had gotten on the wrong medicine, Joey.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: It was the perfect storm.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: So whenever that we hit that wall, the dark night of the soul, like, where are you lord?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was able to just say, Hey, I I I can't do this anymore.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, the physical, it all just was there.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so when we when I left, like I had to get out of town to get some, you know, 360 evaluation, um, going into trauma therapy.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_04: Chip for the first time said to his elders, like, like we had a big meeting that was supposed to be happening, church stuff, leadership, and he was like, Everything's gotta go on pause.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I we've gotta like Christy's going to get some help, but I really need to be there for her.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so that was the first time that he, I think, just was able to shift attention and energy towards couldn't, there was no denying.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: This, there was no dressing it up, there was no him showing up one way and me showing up the other way.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Whenever that happened, leadership was like, What's going on here?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, chip Judd, you're asking, like, how did that affect ministry in itself?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I believe that the Lord met us in a really intimate way, and a lot of healing started happening in me.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_04: There was just an openness, you know, in my heart, my spirit to be very vulnerable with our team, our leadership, which I had done before, but again, I presented, they they tried to pray it all out.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: Let's just do that.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then there were others that were on staff and high-level leadership who was like, bless your hardship.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I can't believe you have to deal with that.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so sorry that you have a depressed wife, all of that.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so for me to be able to uh uh along the way in ministry, I was sensing in a lot of the darkness was things are not okay with leadership, like people are being hurt.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_04: I was able to see into people's souls and see the pain there.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that was at the hands of leadership, and so and when I would raise my hand, um I was shut down.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you don't understand, they're spiritual men, they're whatever.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_04: You need to stay in your lane, basically.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_04: And it it's so interesting how it all happened.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody's like, no, you were the tip of the spear.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like you now we've we've all of a sudden we've shifted gears, and now we're actually sitting down with people and not just expecting them to show up as ministers, you know, who have it all together, but they they have pain too.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, let's let's lean in to that.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_04: So the very thing that I was shamed for then became this catalyst towards, like, okay, now we want to lead in a different way, we want to minister in a different way, a place from authenticity and tenderness, and like maybe like Jesus did, you know.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa, whoa.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_04: Imagine that.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: That's so good you said that.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: But seriously, like that that has been our story, but but the divisiveness on the on the other, like on the front end of all of that, that the enemy came, you know, not just for the church, but for my marriage.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that divisiveness, and and and the darkness that was attached to that nearly killed me.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like it it almost took me out.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it really, I think there were times when Chip, like he stayed married to me because he didn't want to lose his job.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it was one of those we got to those places in our our journey that was just really, really dark.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_04: But because of all of that, my awakening, my healing led into like Chip saying, Hold on, wait a second, like I've got stuff too.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like he was able to say that about himself.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, why do I do what I do?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Why do I show up the way I show up?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_04: Why did I shut my wife down?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, what is this?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's been a beautiful thing personally and marriage-wise, and then it has been a huge transformation in the church, which only God could do.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_10: Well, I think you were like, I think women, you know, we were talking about this earlier too.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_10: It's like women and the the pulse.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, I think you do set the tone in a lot of ways, and like them saying you're the tip of the spear.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_10: I hate that you had to go through this dark night of the soul kind of thing, or that just darkness, but it's like that is you let a charge that probably led to your church growing and people feeling more authentic and like they can be themselves, they can do, you know, whatever it is.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_10: It's like they're able and they're capable.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_10: And I'm like, just, you know, to get the pulse.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_10: I think that is one area where it's not saying that men aren't sensitive, but I think women are gifted that way to just get a pulse in the spirit, to get a pulse in the natural, to get a pulse for, hey, I'm feeling all these things at the same time.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_10: And are you good?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_10: You know, like are you okay?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_10: And I think for you being able to say, I'm not okay, I'm waving the flag.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_10: And then for people to be able to respond appropriately, I think has set the tone.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_10: Now it sounds like for your whole church that if someone's waving the flag, you're not good, you're gonna stop and you're gonna listen and you're gonna press in and you're gonna let them have that moment and not take them out of leadership or shame them for it.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_10: That's just so oh, please teach everyone how to do that.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_10: It's powerful.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was cool when you guys told your story.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: How I I mean, I've I've known you guys before all that.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I've ever said this, so forgive me and tell Chip that I did.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would have considered him a pretty shut down guy.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: He he you never felt like you got past the crust.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, he's he's fit, he's intense, he's uh got vision, he's uh he's got uh ambition, not selfish ambition, but ambition.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was really interesting when you told your story that a real turning point was when he realized I'm jacked up.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a key, man.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Part of our defense mechanism that keeps God from being able to get to where we're jacked up is the fear of exposure.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's Genesis 3.10.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the crazy thing is, when God gets past that, I mean, Chris uh uh Chip looked like I should forget his name, right?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Chip looks he looks happier, more peaceful, more at more, more at home in his skin than I've ever seen him before.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the way you you're now able now able to nourish each other, it's just cool that prior to his awareness, he was comfortable like my wife has a problem.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm not I'm only saying that uh number one, because you're past it.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's past it.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I mean, if any of you guys out there, if you're you're in a relationship, a situation, or whatever, and i you seem to be stuck, and everybody's stuck somewhere.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: You seem to be stuck, and you find yourself kind of using the other, even if you don't say it in your head, well, you know, if they could get over this problem, we we could get unstuck.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: No one's ever 100% responsible for the situation you're in.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: So what might be a key to your breakthrough is just the willingness to say, God, what do you want to show me about me and how that's playing into the cycle we're caught in?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um you might be surprised, and it won't hurt as bad as you think it will.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: It really won't.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: It might.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: It might.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: A little.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think a lot, yeah, exactly.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: And and that was that has been our experience and Chip's experience, and he would say it, and I'm sure he's I mean, he's told us, told a lot of folks about that, and he kept people at arm's distance because he was a there was a fear, even though he's this big, you know, bigger than life personality leader, da-da-da, all of that.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: There was a there were some broken parts.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_04: He was afraid to be known.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: Even for him to admit that and say, these this is why I'm wearing these masks.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: This is why I'm presenting a certain way.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's because I have fear.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Guys don't like to admit fear.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: They don't like to admit fear.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really important point.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I'm prepared to I don't have much thoughts behind that other than that's a really, really, really important thing.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Guys do not like to admit fear.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_10: They do because it equals weakness sometimes, I think.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_10: And that's a that equals isn't a real one, but I think that's what it's been built to say is like you can't have that if you're tough and if you're a guy, and you know, it's like, no, be real about it.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_10: Sounds like Chip was authentic, you know.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_10: And I think that goes back to the scrupulosity piece too, because it's like, I wish we could tear this down that you have to be perfect.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_10: Like this whole mentality that you can't make a mistake, you can't have a bad day.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_10: Like you were saying, Chip like was living in his skin, and you thought he was okay, and then now it's like you're seeing him more vibrant and more himself and like leading better.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_10: It's like, how many people have that belief that if I make a mistake, I'm no longer qualified?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_10: I can't listen to you if you haven't made a mistake.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_10: You can't lead me.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, I'm at this place now, I think, in my walk with the Lord, and over the time of you know, growing up, that I'm just like, no, if you haven't made a mistake, you can't lead me.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_10: Because if you can't talk about that, then you're not being authentic, and I can't wait to dig in your junk because there's junk that you aren't showing people.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_10: And I think there's such power and that authenticity and leadership for sure.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it really encourages me by y'all's story, Christy, and when when I heard the the two-part conversation that I got to be a part of, is I have be I have started to become pretty skeptical, not in a bitter way like I used to, uh, but I would say still a little cynical, but not in a mean-spirited way of larger-than-life personality type pastors.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think y'all's story showed me that Chip Henderson, your husband, was never a bad guy.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I and I and I tend to think of these larger-than-life pastor personalities that you know are kind of living a double life as far as you're not gonna get below the surface, this is who I'm presenting.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: They're not necessarily bad people, but then the the second I I think huge thing for me is just you hear all of the stories of how people in y'all's shoes tanked and somebody cheated on the other person, or uh somebody is exposed of being a bully to their staff, and things crumble where you guys actually found healing before something like that took place.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's just is really encouraging to my spirit because Chip knows how I can get pretty cynical about church and church leadership, and that I just like it.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: I can too, man.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can too.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: Love y'all's story.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're we're grateful.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it it got bad, but I think the grace and mercy of God, you know, stopped the train before it crashed completely.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: We can we can close this out here, but I have a question of uh like um and people can read between the lines, and I don't have any issues with this person.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't know him, but he represents, I think, the sort of thing that we're talking about is what one of the one of the biggest mega churches ever could be considered the original mega church.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: And he, I mean, he wrote a freaking book about marriage, and I know and Chip knows someone who used to be on staff, and everybody knew he didn't have he didn't even have a good marriage.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I want to say that dude knew that he was not healthy, he's leading a huge church.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: That dude knew he wasn't healthy, and and yet he's larger than life.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's like, I want to be like that dude.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: That dude has his stuff together, not everybody, Joey.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not everybody.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um But my question is I think we all know there's tons of people that are are leading, they're unhealthy, and they're not getting help.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious, do you guys think that it's mostly people that are unaware or people like this guy I'm talking about who they have to be aware, and yet they're just like, well, this is my life, and I'm successful with my life, and I don't care that I'm unhealthy.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: I think people in those seats, my first thing is performance.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_04: The word performance comes to mind.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_04: And there's there is a training of sorts.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if they teach it in seminary or what, but you just even when things are crumbling underneath the surface.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think there is an awareness of that, Joey.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I'm sure there's a diagnosis for people who don't think that they have anything under the surface that is bad or or painful or dysfunctional.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: But I would think the majority of people do know that about themselves.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_04: There's a fear of being exposed.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: If you if you know me, you won't love me.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_04: This will all fall apart.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you knew me, it'll all fall apart.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so in order to maintain some type of leadership or, you know, calling in life, then you gotta get on that platform and just perform, you know, preach to people and not place from a from a place of vulnerability.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and some of these guys are so charismatic, they they get all the bat pack like patting on the back and all the encouragement and affirmation.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: And they probably, if I were in their shoes, would think I'm anointed.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: So what I'm saying is helping people.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, look look at the response I'm getting, how I can preach something and people tell me it was life-changing.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm unhealthy, I guess, but God's using me.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that that's one of the many sort of defense mechanisms that help them maintain what Christy's talking about.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would say even the way we do church plays into it some.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having been a pastor, um when you have to crank out a message every week, slowly but surely you detach from uh living that message.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it takes uh marinating, it takes talking and listening and spending time with God and to become the word made flesh.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and a bad habit that happens when you're in ministry is you you maybe even get an insight from God that you build your message around, but you don't have time to incorporate it into your being because you got to get a message for next week.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of why I think one of the helpful things, I don't know that it's always a solution, in other words, helpful, but you know, teen teaching where nobody preaches every week.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, way back in the day, we had to preach three times a week Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's the dumbest thing in the world.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like the people that needed it the most were were never there, sometimes for any of the three, let alone Sunday night, Wednesday night.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you were you were feeding the fat.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh thank God we got delivered from that.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we still we still don't think through the process of receiving a word, fertilizing it, nourishing it, allowing it to go through its gestation period if that's the right for a for a you know a plant.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know it is for a baby.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is we have we have changeless change agents.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have we have guys who their job theoretically on paper is to to be an agent of change.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: The way we've developed the system is they're not changing themselves.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's you know, Sunday's coming, Sunday's coming.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're smarter than that, man.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're smarter than that.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Chip.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_10: I keep interrupting you.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_10: I'm sorry.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I was gonna say that that goes back to don't let that happen again.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_10: I won't.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_10: I'll be in Joey's mode.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: Don't like that.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: We don't like that.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I got another clip to put.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_10: We narcissists don't like that.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_10: I'm a narcissist.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, remember remember Katzie, he said, don't interrupt me.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a narcissist.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_09: That's gonna be the intro.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's tell it though.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: If I was a narcissist, I would never say that.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_09: You wouldn't.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_09: You wouldn't.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_10: It's true.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_10: You wouldn't even have the awareness.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_10: Well, I think going back to what you were saying, Joey, it reminds me of what kind of the comment you made earlier, Chip, because I think the reason people like that write a book about it but never process it for themselves is because they never stop and take the time.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_10: Like there's never this, like you were talking about that chip, how you went through your season, and I think you said 2019, you know, you knew you kind of went into burnout and all of that.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_10: And even just a couple weeks ago you said, whoa, like I felt something that looked maybe smelled similar, looked similar, and you stopped long enough to say, okay, I gotta do more healthy things.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_10: You know, I know I know my strategy.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_10: And I think that took a stop.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_10: And so many people don't want to stop.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, one of my favorite books of all time, I don't know how y'all feel about it, but is John Mark Comer's Ruthless Elimination of Hurry.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_10: I just love that book because it's like, whoa, slow down.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_10: Like we don't slow down enough.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_10: And I think the pace of church is unhealthy a lot of times, like that Sunday night, Sunday morning, you know, Wednesday night, some of that stuff.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_10: And it's not that we don't want to gather, but it's like what we've made it into is the show and the whole thing, and we have to have the production.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_10: And it's like, I think you can't stop to process that in your own marriage.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_10: Cause what would that look like?
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_10: Are you gonna lose momentum?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_10: Is somebody gonna pass you?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_10: Is somebody gonna do more than you?
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_10: Is somebody gonna speak better than you?
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_10: And then it just is a perpetuating cycle that does you don't even check in with your body.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_10: How am I feeling?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_10: Am I sleeping?
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_10: Am I eating?
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_10: Is my are my kids, they know my name.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_10: I don't know, you know, and you just don't, but you write about it because that looks good.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_10: But yeah, that's my thought.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think, you know, like Chip and Christy in other situations, I think the body of Christ is waking up some.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, that's why, Christy, we're just honored that we've kind of reconnected and and you guys are, you know, involved in this, and I hope you're gonna stay involved.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just slowly but surely getting guys, you know, guys.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: When I say guys, I mean both.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but getting guys and gals to to, you know, hopefully something one of us has said today makes somebody go, huh.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they connect something they haven't connected before.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: They they open their heart to something they haven't opened it to before, maybe even reach out to someone.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if they know you guys, they reach out to you.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't have any problem preaching and teaching that an organization doesn't rise beyond the level of its leadership.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that ought to scare the mess out of us.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: That ought to scare the mess out of us.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're trying to do is say, hey, we don't, we're not happy about it, but we agree with the principle.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Almost at times wish it wasn't true.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth of the matter is, it drives our vision of what would the church look like, and therefore what would the world have to look at as representatives of Jesus if leaders intentionally, aggressively, consistently pursued greater and greater health and wholeness.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's our quest, man.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're after it, man.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank everybody for listening to the Mental Health Admission of the Church podcast.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_03: We're super thankful to Dr.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_03: Cassie and Christy Henderson.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: You guys, uh listeners, you'll be hearing from these two again.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh Chip, I mean it when I say we're super thankful for your leadership and that this is your heart.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the three of us, me, Christy, and Cassie, can say that we're we're proud to be a part of this with you.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I well, thank you.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm just blown away that I get to do it with such cool people.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode was helpful, share it with someone who might need it.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow Chip on Instagram at Chipjud and find free resources for your spiritual and mental health journey at chipjud.com.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time on Mental Health and the Mission of the Church.