Latest / IMI Podcasts / #23: "Residence by Investment, Minus the Investment" - Slava Apel Explains The Canada Startup Visa on the Mobility Standard Podcast

Transcript

#23: "Residence by Investment, Minus the Investment" - Slava Apel Explains The Canada Startup Visa on the Mobility Standard Podcast · IMI Podcasts

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: in Lisbon, 11am in St.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: Kitts.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: And boy, do we have a deep dive of an episode for you today.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: We've been speaking to Mr.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: Slava Appell, head of Startup Visa Services, about Canada's Startup Visa program.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: The program has kind of risen from pilot program obscurity to now become what Slava actually refers to as the most viable and the most direct path to Canadian permanent residency.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: He also says it's the most profitable program for immigration companies.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Slava gave us clear and concise answers to questions like Is it true that the Canada SUV can be a passive investment program if you plan the right way?
0:56
SPEAKER_01: What do agents, brokers, and introducers get paid when they help a client get the Canada startup visa?
1:03
SPEAKER_01: And with no minimum investment, no performance requirement, and a direct path to PR and a direct path to citizenship, isn't this program a little too good to be true?
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Slava also tells the story of what happened when he flew to Dubai and confronted the company that was engaged in false advertising of the Canada startup visa.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: All of that and a great deal, really a great deal more, in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI's stories on our website, imidaily.com, on our mobile phone apps and our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media networks.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and most other podcast platforms.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Slava Appel, so grateful to have you on the podcast.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: It's been a while since we last saw each other.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Um it was in Istanbul during IMI Connect.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Um I want to start this podcast the way we typically do, which is by having the guest introduce himself.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: So tell us a little bit about Slava Appel.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: Where is he from?
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, how did he get to where he is today?
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And and what is it that he's doing right now?
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, pleasure to be here.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, Richard.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we did miss seeing you.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: What is it, just about uh 40 days ago or so, maybe 50?
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've traveled to a few countries together.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: So, for those of you that I haven't met yet, my name is Slavel.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm here in Canada.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't originally born in Canada.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I arrived here about 33 years ago from a little country called Moldova.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: So the country went from about 7 million to 2 million people now, so it is tiny.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, my personal background, I have been in the business industry, business of business industry.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I work with a lot of startups.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: I work by uh helping them accelerate, I help them market, I help them gain uh, I would say, market share, I help them uh fundraise, and I do that from my own experience.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: I've owned quite a few companies in the past.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: I was a software executive, I sold that company, I was uh training company owner, I teach at university.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Specifically, I teach marketing, I teach software, I teach business, uh, had a lot of early successes in my career that allowed me to invest into a lot of the companies as well.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: So by the time I arrived into this industry, which is immigration industry in itself, it had a lot of relevancy to me because it is dealing with high net worth individuals, entrepreneurial individuals, mobility, taxes, planning.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: So kind of my background was adaptable to this industry very quickly.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, you're from Moldova originally.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: You said 30 years ago that you moved?
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, just a bit over.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I visited Moldova once.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: I I was on the obviously the uh not Transnistria, just the regular Moldova.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Did you grow up uh as a as a as a child in Kishinow or or somewhere else?
4:28
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: I spent a lot of time there most of my life in Kisinov.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh I was born in a smaller town outside of it.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh left when I was a teenager, so I still remember a lot.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: One bad thing though, I haven't been back in about 30 years.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: I visited many other places.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: I've been to Armenia, Kazakhstan, been to Russia, been kind of all over everywhere, except having landed back there, but I too do intend to do so sometime this year.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Or you haven't been back in 30 years.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: What do you have?
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Some warrant for your arrest or well, nothing that I'm aware of.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Considering that I left as a teenager, maybe a lot of broken hearts.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: That's about it.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, clearly.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh I can totally imagine that.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: All right, we're here to talk uh today about the Canada startup visa.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: I know uh Ahmad has a bunch of questions of a technical nature for you.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know Rohelio wants to understand kind of how it fits into the wider framework of competing with, for example, US programs.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know that much about the Canada startup visa.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, more than the average guy probably, but I'm going to ask you some questions that some people might find basic.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: I just want people to understand um the fundamentals of the Canada startup visa.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: So let's start by having you give me your one-paragraph sort of elevator pitch for the Canada startup visa, just before we get into the details.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it all about?
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say this is as close as it comes to residency by investment, minus the investment part.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: It is meant to bring in entrepreneurs to Canada for them to start a business that has some sort of economic impact to Canada.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: It has very few restrictions, meaning anyone can become that entrepreneur, and the lack of restrictions such as there is no educational requirement, meaning anyone at any age can become that entrepreneur.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: There is no net worth requirement, it could be bootstrapped or a large company moving here.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: So between no age restriction, no educational background, and no serious funding behind it, it opens it up to anyone that wants to pivot their startup or start a brand new company here in Canada.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: The biggest benefit, unlike 20 other started visas around the world, so many countries offer that as a path, Canada is the only path that offers it as a direct path to permanent residency, which is a huge advantage because the second someone becomes permanent resident, they have a great advantage for social safety net of Canada, cheaper education for their kids, free healthcare, and many other advantages, besides, of course, getting a lot of help in growing their businesses.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: You call it a direct path to residence by investment minus the investment.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by that?
7:21
SPEAKER_01: How can there be a startup visa that doesn't require any investment?
7:25
SPEAKER_00: The good thing about Canada, they did not define whether a person put in 10,000 into their business, 100,000, or a million dollars, and they have been approving anything from bootstrap companies, people that are coming in with 50 to 100 to 300,000 to multi-million dollar companies moving here.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: In reality, they're looking for the diamond in a rough.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Someone that can come to Canada, open up the next biggest billion-dollar company, and you can start from being a small company, or you can come here as a large company.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to no investment requirement, unlike previous, let's say two most popular programs in Canada that required you to invest, let's say Quebec Investment Program,$1.2 million, which was an exact value that government has set out.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey, invest$1.2 million, bring in$2 million, and now you qualify to start applying for permanent residency or for citizenship or any other path.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: But under startup visa, there is no prescribed number.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: So it is whatever makes sense for that individual coming here to start their company.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Now there are other investment paths to come to Canada.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: In Canada, we have multiple provinces, each one of them has their own minimum or maximum.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: For example, I live in Toronto, in Ontario, here in Canada.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: So we have a minimum investment of over half a million dollars if someone wanted to come through provincial path.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: However, under startup visa, there is no minimum investment requirement.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: So explain that to me, the um provincial path.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: Is this uh the provincial nominee program?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: So we have provincial entrepreneur programs available through.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so okay, so you have a federal uh startup visa, and then individually for each province, you have uh entrepreneur provincial.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, provincial things.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: They're not very popular because they're kind of tough, especially in comparison to startup visa.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: So under startup visa, there is no minimum performance requirement.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Under provincial, there is performance requirement of hiring of at least two people, as an example, and having a thriving company.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: So even comparing what you have to achieve, meaning commercial success or employing at least two people under provincial level, does not exist under federal startup visa program.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: But then is there any reason why why anybody would uh go with the provincial programs if you if you get the same benefit from startup visa uh but at more lax requirements, why would anybody do provincial?
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's exactly why I named my company Startup Visa Services and a provincial interpretive program services company, because no, it doesn't make any sense.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: However, and I'll put that asterisk of however, I've traveled throughout many countries, and some countries have a mindset to say, I don't want to start a brand new business.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: I want to buy into an existing business.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: So people coming from those countries that even though the risk is higher, expenditure is higher, likelihood of failure is higher, they will never do a startup.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: They will only invest into an existing business.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: And you can do that with the provincial programs.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they get to do that with the provincial.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: But for the federal startup visa, it must be a new company.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's a completely new business that you're starting here.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Brand new idea that is an innovative company.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: So a guy in India, for example, has a startup in India, then he submits an application under that startup idea into Canada.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: So it's not entirely new, correct?
11:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's like it has to be new to Canada.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: So new to if let's say in uh in Canada we have two active companies like Uber and Lyft.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: So if somebody wanted to bring Yandex from Russia here, Yandex doesn't exist here as the vehicle kind of company, vehicle fleet company.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: So that would be permittable.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: You're bringing somebody else's concept, obviously with proper licensing and permission here to Canada.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Very similarly, in franchising world, you cannot buy an existing franchise here in Canada, but you can bring an existing franchising concept from another country.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: So you're allowed to transfer knowledge, you're allowed to bring an existing business.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be a completely brand new company.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: It could be something that you have already been operating somewhere else and pivoting it to Canada.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And one of the funnier things about it, the government of Canada even put out billboards worldwide, specifically the ones that I've noticed would be in Silicon Valley in California.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: And the billboard pretty much said, hey, do you have a great idea?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Are you having a hard time staying in America?
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Pivot to Canada, we'll start a visa.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: So they are doing headhunting in Silicon Valley, bringing their brightest individuals here to Canada to start or expand or pivot their businesses here.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes, this sounds like uh a program that's too good to be true.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: There's no minimum investment requirement, there's no performance requirements.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: It provides immediate permanent residency for you and I think your dependent parents and even grandparents.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Just for you, depending children under 22.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: It does sound too good to be true, though.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with Rogelio.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: That was my thought exactly.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And there's like a very short processing time, too, isn't there?
12:56
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: So I actually have a slide whenever I present it to people, and I call it too good to be true.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't start off with a slide.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: I kind of warm people up to say it does sound like it's too good to be true.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: There is no investment requirement, there is no performance requirement.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: There you can come at any age from 18 to 80 years old.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: You can bring your spouse and as many kids as you want under age of 22, and you get free health care.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: And your children get education at a quarter of the price.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: So it does sound like too good to be true, but there is a safety net that is built in who is approving them.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: And the safety net, it's not the government of Canada that is reviewing candidacy of the business owner.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: So they are looking for an industry sector, for private companies that have been designated to do vetting and assessing of those businesses.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: People that have the right mind and experience to say that's a great business plan, or this is a made-up business that will never work.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: So these companies are angel investment groups, business incubators, venture capitalists.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: So they already know how to sort out and how to get rid of those people that are bringing something that's is either in existence or not just viable for Canada.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: So by the time the proposal for business goes through the channel, very few people get approved.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: And when I say that, uh, I'm working with one of the incubators, their statistic is that for every one approval, they get 30 applications.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm working with one of the angel investment groups.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: For every 295 applications, only one person passes to interview.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't guarantee that they're going to pass.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: But a very few people from that proposal stage get to a place where their resume, their business plan is being reviewed.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And this is the service that I provide to clients to make sure that they are those kind of diamond in a rough scenarios where their business gets elected.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: All right, Slava, um before we get ahead of ourselves, I want to make sure that everybody understands the steps in the process of applying for a Canada startup visa.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: So uh take it from the beginning, uh, describe each step, and what are the critical junctures at each of those steps and who plays what role at what step?
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Great.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So it is not government of Canada that reviews the business plan.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: So at first, someone has to have their business plan, business proposal reviewed, accepted, and guarantee to government that that is going to be a good business.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: So the entire application starts at the level of one of the three designated by government of Canada, business institutions.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: So in Canada, we have a lot of angel investment groups, as an example, over 40, but only nine of them are designated by government of Canada to issue a call it a permission slip.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: They call it a letter of support.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: That letter of support signifies that the business plan has been reviewed, the candidate, their family, their business partners, you can have up to five business partners under this path altogether, so that they have been reviewed and they have been approved from the standpoint of that the business is going to thrive, survive, bring economic impact to Canada, that it has enough innovation.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: So the candidate applies to a designated organization, either an angel investment group, venture capitalist, or business incubator.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: All three of them have different criteria for whom they're going to approve.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Business incubators will take earlier stage companies, meaning someone that has minimum viable product that they want to bring to Canada.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: It's not an active company yet, but they want to learn how to do that in Canada, as in how do you do business, how do you market it, how do you succeed in Canada.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: So typically those people go to an incubator.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: If someone is bringing and pivoting to Canada, a company that already has marginal sales, they have traction.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Could be a software company, software as a service.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: They could also be applying to an angel investment group.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Angels have a different rule.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: They don't incubate that idea, but they have to invest at the minimum of 75,000 Canadian dollars into that business, issue a term sheet, and with that term sheet, they can also issue that letter of support that signifies that they like the business and they will support them.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Venture capitalists, they typically deal with larger businesses.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I worked with a European company that wanted to bring their family business to Canada, their multi-million dollar company.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: So they went through venture capitalist route.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: They applied to some of these designated venture capitalists who had to issue a term sheet for$200,000 prior to accepting and giving them that letter of support.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: It's an identical letter of support that's given across every level.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: However, some countries and some people and some immigration agents like to go one way or another.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Some prefer an angel track, some prefer a business incubator track.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Business incubator seems to have a lot more volume.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Close to 80% of all of the volumes that are coming through incubators.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And the main reason, because the applicant does not need to get the term sheet or an investor or a board seat person.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: They don't need to get a shareholder.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And the entire experience when it comes to paperwork is a lot easier on them.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: All they need to do is to study how to do business within that incubator, get some mentorship, and then they get that letter of support.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: So step number one, get yourself accepted by one of these designated organizations, and very few people get to that step.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Step number two, once you get that letter of support, you can apply directly for permanent residency.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Or if you want to come to Canada even sooner, you can also apply for a work permit.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: So under this Start a Visa stream, you can come to Canada even before your permanent residency is granted to you by getting that work permit to start working in your business.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And the benefits are primary candidate gets their work permit that is closed, work permit just to work in their business, but their spouse, wife, or husband, they are the ones that get to do whatever they want.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: They also get an open work permit that allows them to work.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: So, kind of to summarize, steps are number one, speak to an immigration agent to make sure that that's the right path for you.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Number two, have that immigration agent get a local Canadian expert.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: We consider ourselves one of those experts to make sure that we get their clients into the right designated organization, that their business package is properly prepared, that it's going to be approved so we don't waste clients' time.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Step number, well, the next step, step number three, get that client's resume business plan properly vetted, assessed, approved by the designated organization.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Once they get the letter of support in the next step, now they have a path open to them to do what, well, to actually apply for permanent residency or for the work permit.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Once they do that application for a work permit, and this is something Christian and I kind of spoke a while back about, once they receive that letter of support, the number of people that get approved for permanent residency is quite large.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Last statistic I looked at, for those whose file was reviewed, close to 80% of them proceeded all the way to permanent residency.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, so this is uh what I was a little bit confused about because I remember you telling me that the uh the approval rates were extremely high.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: But that's only because uh just getting to that stage where you even get to apply, you have to first go through uh sort of a needle's eye of endorsements from other bodies.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's where you're saying it's one in 290 or whatever you said, right?
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: So, and that's not even an approval.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: So when I quoted one out of 295, that's just the person getting to an interview with the designated organization.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: However, once they take on a local support person, local consultant such as ourselves, we guarantee to our clients that interview placement because we really know how to prepare their business package that is going to be accepted, and how to train them for that interview.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: So what we're dividing is between general public trying to apply directly or taking on a local Sherpa, someone that's going to get them to the top of that summit, someone that is going to help them through all the processes.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: But but are you saying that you can get uh an interview for practically anybody?
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, once we accept them, so we don't accept everyone, but once we accept ourselves, so we have our own mini interview first, our acceptance rate for an interview in the last seven years has been close to a hundred percent.
21:36
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: All right.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: Okay, but let me ask you this, yeah, slow.
21:40
SPEAKER_03: So for our listeners, who who would you prefer to sign?
21:45
SPEAKER_03: Who would you prefer not to sign on?
21:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, for the average Joe listening, should anybody contact you?
21:52
SPEAKER_03: I mean, if they work as a teacher, if they work as an IT professional?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Who is this programme for and who is it not for?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: To start off with, I don't deal with the client directly.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: I usually deal, well not usually, I always deal through channel partners.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: I deal through immigration agents because number one thing I want to have done is to have that individual vetted.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: They have to have English at a specific level, which is IELTS level five, English or French, so on a Canadian language benchmark.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: They have to have sufficient lending funds, which is very minimal.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Family of four under 25,000 Canadian.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: They have to have medical and criminal clearance.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: These are not the questions that I want to be asking, or I don't want to be the person that stands behind kind of that person in front of an incubator or an angel room to say I have vetted them.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: So we rely 100% of the time on our channel partners, which is immigration firms.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So once they have vetted their client, they would be introducing their clients to us.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: So I mean to your question, who should it be?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Could it be a teacher?
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Answer is yes.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Could it be a construction worker?
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Still yes.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Could it be somebody that owns real estate?
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Answer is yes.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: We haven't found too many people that are not, I would say, well, that cannot adjust to becoming an entrepreneur in Canada because anyone can become an entrepreneur.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I usually use a story of my father.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: My father was an engineer, he gets fired, laid off from work at the age almost of being 60.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: So no one wants to hire him anymore.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: So what does he do?
23:24
SPEAKER_00: He takes his life savings, he goes to a business show where they sell businesses and franchises, and he buys for himself a franchise.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, after 60 years of his life, he became an entrepreneur.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So anyone can become an entrepreneur as long as they have that drive to bring or to do something new in Canada.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And I have seen housewives coming up with great concepts and great products.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: I have seen farmers coming up with better processes and technologies.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: I have seen teachers coming up with better software for e-learning.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: So I have seen people coming through this path from every single live stream and from every country as well.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Rahali.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that strikes me as important to emphasize is the government support for this program is markedly different than in the US in the EB5 program.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Didn't it just become a permanent program?
24:23
SPEAKER_02: Isn't there more investment in staffing and technology to make the processes faster?
24:28
SPEAKER_02: It just does seem like the Canadian government is pro-immigration and pro-SUV program versus what's happening in the States.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, there you're you're absolutely right.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Government of Canada is really pro-immigration.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: So comparing how government of America, government of Canada is working, Canada accepts as many new immigrants to the country as America, and we are in Canada 10 times smaller than America.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: Canada is very small, 37, 38 million people, but we have a goal to double our population through immigration.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: So in order for us to do so, government of Canada said they're going to invest over a billion and a half to two billion dollars into immigration.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: They have increased the quotas, and which made us very happy about Star A Visa path where I'm working in.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: When it started in 2013, for the first five years, Star A Visa as the permanent residency path was in the pilot stage.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: So not too many immigration firms worldwide paid attention to it.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: And even over 7,500 immigration professionals in Canada paid attention to it.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: So yes, in Canada, there is over seven and a half registered immigration professionals.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: So no one paid attention to it.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: But after the first five years, it came out of the pilot, became a permanent program.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: So still not a lot of adoption in the program.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, there were even rumors whether it's going to be a viable product for immigration or not.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: But as of literally three to four weeks ago, the government of Canada released their new budget, they renewed this program, and they increased the throughput or allowed, I would say, permanent residencies under this program by 500%.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: So definitely it gets marketed differently from EB5 or other programs.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Canada is pro-immigration.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Very aggressive goals, about half a million people to achieve permanent residency per year by 2025.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: Something I know about the startup visa is that you don't have to prove source of funds like you have to do in the QIP or the PNPs, which is exhaustive.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: Is that correct?
26:37
SPEAKER_00: That is correct.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, on the Government of Canada website, there's a frequently asked question, and they specifically even say, where do funds come for this business?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And they left a really good answer for the industry that anyone can help you and sponsor even that business.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: So meaning it could be coming from your corporate account, it could be coming from your mother's account if she wants to help you set up your business here.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: So the source of funds, unlike in Quebec Investment Program, are not as vigorously checked.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: They do ask for a bank statement and they do look for abnormality.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: So we look uh through some of the letters from government that are going to clients and they're actually asking, well, we're seeing a million dollars was deposited within a day of you taking the snapshot of your bank account.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Please explain it.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: So they are looking, but they're not looking to the exact same level as they were doing with Quebec Investment Program.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: When people are bringing money in, they're still bringing money in through their normal banking channel.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: So their bank could ask them where is the money coming from in order for you to deposit it into your business account.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: So typically the businesses that we are working with, they're small cap, under million dollars that we are bringing here.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: We haven't brought in multi-hundred million dollar companies or uh billion dollar companies here yet.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: So there is not a lot of questions, even on our side, when someone says, I'm gonna put in$200,000 into my bank account to do some seed funding for my business.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: From the government perspective, they have their own checks and balances.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: We also have to take a look at who is responsible for what.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Incubators, angel groups, and venture capitalists, that's where I work.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: I work in those groups.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm one of those people that goes through the documentation.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: We are not required to look for the source of funds.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: When you're looking for who is selling this program to their clients, that's your immigration firms worldwide, they are not required to check for source of funds.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: So the two bodies that are getting people to apply by the time someone is ready for permanent residency, they are not required.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: So by the time we're submitting all of the documentation, the only thing that we're submitting when it comes to financial, besides the business plan, is the snapshot of the bank statement.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that's also very uh surprising is I've been in this industry since what 2014.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: I never heard of a federal SUV program until you know the famous uh first conference that Christian sent uh hosted in Portugal.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh that was what six months ago.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh yet the program's been around since 2013 and it continues to grow.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh why why is that?
29:23
SPEAKER_02: Why why has is it a marketing problem from Canada?
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Or I I think people more people should be aware of it.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh certainly compared to alternatives in in North America, it's seems to me like one of the best ones.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me expand on a rumor about Canadians.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: We're nice people here.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: We're all we don't pound our chest.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh unfortunately, we don't win a great uh football tournament either.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's another sore spot there.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: But the government of Canada did the best they could do.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: They put up billboards world worldwide, they attended trade shows, they educated Canadian immigration industry, and it is truly up to the industry, the Canadian immigration industry, to promote itself.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: I've done a lot of outbound trade missions.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: In the last 12 months, I spoke on six different stages around the world promoting startup visa.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: And you are right, Rohelian, 99% of the time, everyone is surprised really what a path to Canada through immigration exists, uh, through investment or opening up a business.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: They are surprised.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: So, who has done a bad job?
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, you have other countries like uh Malta, Portugal, they're doing a great job advertising, they have citizenship by investment or residency by investment programs.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: Canada does not consider this and does not want to consider that as a citizenship by investment or second passport play.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: They are looking at it strictly as helping Canadians get more employers into Canada.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: It is an entrepreneurial path.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: They are looking for the next Unicorps.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: And because of that, the advertising methodology is different.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Is it accurate to say that this is now, you know, now that the federal immigrant investor program has been gone since what, 2014, uh the Quebec IIP has been gone for the last two or three years.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Is it fair to say that this is now the principal investment-based path to permanent residency in Canada?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: This is, I would say, the most viable path.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: To Canada intercompany transfers.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: So this is the most direct.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: This is the direct, the most direct path to permanent residency.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: And now there is another little bit of a sore spot for me.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: In the past, it used to also be the fastest path.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: The approval rates when it came out were extremely fast.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: You could have received your permanent residency in 12 to 16 months.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: Full permanent residency after you had your letter of support.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: I remember days, and we even have statistical data, where you could have received your permanent residency in under half a year.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: So right now, the timelines are extended because of COVID, because of the war in Ukraine, where Canada is accepting as the first priority Ukrainians, and of course, all the other backlogs as well.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: So right now the timeline is And of course, and increasing demand, I imagine, for the first time.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, we keep increasing our throughput year over year.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: So now the timeline is expanded all the way to 31 months.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: We're all hoping that it's going to go back down to 12 to 16 months.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: But how soon can you how soon can you land in Canada, though, while you wait for that?
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Extremely fast.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: So the second that you get your letter of support, so there's a timeline leading you up to that permission slip, permission letter.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: In UK, they call it letter of endorsement.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's the same letter that says, we like your business here.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: You can land under work permit very fast.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: And also depending on the country.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Some countries can get it in two to three months, the work permit, to start working in your business here right away.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Some countries take eight to nine months for you to get that exact same work permit.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: So it is country by country based.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: But in reality, if we can get you that letter of support quickly by properly doing due diligence on your business and by properly either incubating or investing into a company, if we can do that quickly, in that case, if you are going to go for your work permit, you can land in Canada under a year.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: So in Investment Migration Insider and IMI, on our program pages, we categorize the Canada startup visa as an active investor visa.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I also know that in this industry it's very common to try to find ways to make visas that are supposed to be about active participatory style investment, to try to find ways of gaming the system to make it more of a passive thing.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: So, to what extent is it possible with the Canadian startup visa to make it a passive type of investment?
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Do investors need to be physically present at business premises?
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Do they need to be involved in the day-to-day running of the business and so on?
34:15
SPEAKER_00: So it is a, I'll say a black eye to this industry.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: What it means.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: There are specific immigration firms that have been selling it as a passive investment program, which it is not.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: It is absolutely meant for someone to be active in a business, whether it's one, two, three, four, or five people in a group.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: In some countries, they're advertising it as the product where you can just invest into business and tag along with somebody else's business.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: This is not what the government of Canada wants to do.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: This is not what incubators, angels, or venture capitalists want to approve.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: If they see that that is happening, they will not let those businesses in.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: So yes, there are some people that are abusing it by marketing it or by hiding it from us.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: People that are approving it, people that are vetting that that is happening, but it is absolutely not the intent of the program.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: It is meant only to bring in active managing partners of the company here.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely not meant for people who want to have sort of an arm's length approach to the business and just want to invest the money and be able to be in Canada.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: They need to actually be there, they need to be involved in the business.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Um But does it work?
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Like if you if you wanna if you want to game this and you want to make it about a passive investment, you you're saying then that let's say I'm uh I'm a guy who wants to get a kind of a startup visa.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: I I really just want to put the money in there and get the residence permit, the PR.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to be involved in the business.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I then have to somehow fool you.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have to fool me, you're gonna have to fool government as well.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Because there have been rejections where that information has leaked out and government has denied the person permanent residency on those exact bases, that they were not coming here within an intent, within the spirit of the program, which is to bring in active people versus passive investors.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Is it possible to hide the fact that even though you're called chief financial officer in a company and yet you're just an investor, it is possible to hide in theory, but it is up to government, it is up to designated organizations to look for those types of scenarios and not to approve them.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: But of course, once you get your PR, that PR is not a conditional PR.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a truly permanent residence.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: So once you're an unconditional PR.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely right.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: And what's even kind of making this program even more dangerous from that perspective, directly on the Government of Canada website, it says if you end up shutting down your business a week from now or a month from now or a year from now or 10 years from now, it doesn't affect your permanent residency.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: That's what makes it that irrevocable permanent residency program.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we are people working in incubators, angel groups, and venture capitalists.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: We hope for a great survival rate.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: We're doing our own internal statistics of how many people we help and how many people live on in that business past year one.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: But yes, it is absolutely possible to come here under this program, get your permanent residency, and abandon the ship right after.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: So isn't that creating the conditions or a situation of moral hazard in the sense that you don't need to perform?
37:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, you it's kind of you're relying on people's good graces or people's the kindness of their hearts or their honesty later on.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: There's no reason for them to keep running the business after they get their PR, correct?
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say I put myself in the seat of the person coming to Canada.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I always ask them a question.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: What do you want to do when you come to Canada?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: If they say I want to go and work in a restaurant, well, that's not for you.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: If they say I want to own a restaurant, now it is for you.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: So they have arrived to Canada.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: They have incubated a great business idea that is innovative.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: All the research has been done: competitive analysis, marketing plan, full business plan.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: They have a website, they have a prototype, they may have even a selling website selling their product.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Why abandon something that is making you money?
38:29
SPEAKER_00: So, in theory, yes, you could completely fool the system and say, I created this great vehicle, I'm gonna launch it here in Canada and then not do anything with it.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: But on the flip side, people are greedy.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Once they paid for something, they want to use it.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: Now you explained to me in the past that the way that the Canadian government looks at this is kind of the way that venture capital firms look at the portfolio companies that they have, right?
38:56
SPEAKER_01: So they understand that in the majority of cases, these businesses will probably not pan out, or maybe they will just um, you know, chug along and survive, but they won't be massive uh job creation successes for Canada.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: But then in those few cases where that happens, that makes up for all the ones that that didn't pan out, right?
39:21
SPEAKER_01: So what would you say, first of all, what are more or less the what is the ratio more or less of companies that succeed uh over call it a five-year period uh to become profitable ventures?
39:34
SPEAKER_01: And how many of those succeed in an outsized manner, which makes up for all the companies that didn't succeed?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I would say the second part of the question would answer better the first part.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: In the first thousand businesses that were approved under this program, Canada birthed a brand new unicorn.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: It's a company that is now worth$4 billion.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Companies called Applyboard.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: They came through Startup Visa as the past, it was three brothers from Iran.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: So they came from absolutely having, let's call it, no money, uh little education, to now having a four billion dollar company that employs over a thousand people, and they leveraged this program to enter into Canada.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: So now that's a uh a beach head that everyone is looking.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Is this program successful or not?
40:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, now in Canada we have a brand new unicorn.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: It was around number two or three unicorn billion dollar company in Canada.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: So no matter how many businesses fail, hey, we got ourselves a unicorn.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: But the second part of the question, looking at it as your portfolio, yes, 80% of the businesses in any country fail within the first three years.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Government of Canada accepts it.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: They wrote about it on their own website saying we get it.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Small businesses don't always survive.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: But now let's take a look at why the government of Canada has put in the middle layer, people that are helping those businesses, such as incubator, angel groups, and venture capitalists.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: When angels issue a term sheet, they're also getting involved in that business to help and support that business grow.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: When incubators incubate, they help that business properly structure, they provide them access to hundreds of mentors, they provide to them access to working space so that businesses are more likely to survive.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Using the statistics of just one incubator, because there's no aggregate data on it.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: So one of the incubators actually done a study, how many businesses last past year one and actually employ someone?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's not good enough to renew your business.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: You're actually now employing someone that is not your family in that particular incubator that over 80% of their businesses survive past year one and actually employ someone.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's a great success rate comparing to someone that is just starting the business without any incubation or without any support.
42:02
SPEAKER_03: What you're saying also works on the other side, on the investors or the client side.
42:06
SPEAKER_03: I've seen a lot of let's say advertising in the Middle East where they say buy your share in an innovative company and get your PR in Canada.
42:15
SPEAKER_03: You may not like that way, but that's how it is.
42:19
SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, that's how they market it.
42:21
SPEAKER_03: So they say, okay, you can pay this much or this much to get a share of an innovative company, and if it does work out, you get that back tenfold or more.
42:31
SPEAKER_03: So I think that's the idea for all parties involved, not just for the government looking at it.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, every industry has a bad apple.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: Like we've seen countries get their passport rights taken away.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Every industry has bad apples.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: I actually looked up the person that is advertising that way in Dubai.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: I flew into Dubai, I was there about three weeks ago.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: I invited a person for tea.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: We met up for tea and I asked them, Well, I see your advertisement, and it sounds crazy.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Every word in it is illegal.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: They're giving a hundred percent guarantee on permanent residency.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's illegal to offer that.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they are offering a seat in a pre-existing pre-approved business.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, there is no such concept.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't exist.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: They're offering a very, very low rate that doesn't even cover legal fees for most of the companies.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing that?
43:21
SPEAKER_00: That was my question, and the cost of that answer was just the cost of tea for me.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: So the person exposed, they're just a marketing company, they're getting leads, they're getting people that are interested in phoning them, and then they're upselling them into something that actually works.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: Something that costs four to five times more than they originally advertised.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: In Canada, in the US, it's called bait and switch.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: It is an illegal marketing technique, but hey, it's working in Dubai, it's working in many other countries, uh, many other cities worldwide.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, even though they're offering it, it is not, it's not a true offer that is going.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: To hold up.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Now, some people, again, bad apples, are grouping people together.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: They're putting them into a pod, into a group, into partnership to save costs, but there is also a flip side to that.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: If that grouping works out, then all of them are sharing the investment that it takes to grow the company.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: So there is a good side and bad side of having multiple partners in this business.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we often see in this market is that when good programs are undermarketed, it's usually because the margins for the agents are not interesting enough.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: So I just can you let's talk a little bit about money, okay?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's get vulgar for a moment.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's talk about just for the benefit of the agents out there that that are not currently promoting SUV and that that may have an interest in doing it.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: So help me first of all understand the value chain.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: So you have the immigration agent, you call them your channels.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: You have the immigration agent in, let's say, Dubai or Vietnam or Turkey or what have you.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: And they are the client-facing entity, and they get paid something from the client.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: They introduce that person to you, and you pay your channel something.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: Who pays what?
45:35
SPEAKER_01: In in so the client pays an advisory fee, I imagine, to the immigration consultant, and then you pay the immigration consultant something.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: How does it work?
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Just to describe it step by step and and explain, you know, to potential immigration, you know, consider this potential future channels for yourself and your own business.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, why how do you incentivize people to get into this?
45:58
SPEAKER_01: And why should they become uh channels for a company like your own?
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a great platform for me to explain what we are doing.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: So I've done a sponsorship for an event called Startup India.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So it was directly me explaining what this program is.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: That was an advertisement and how you should be applying.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: So there was about a, let's say, 500 to 1,000 participants.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: I received 2,000 pitch decks.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: This is not what we want.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: We want to make sure that the person that is sending their pitch deck is ready for Canada, meaning they have to go through an immigration agent that does their pre-qualifications.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: Do they have enough settlement funds?
46:41
SPEAKER_00: Is their English good enough?
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Is their pitch deck proper for Canada?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Is it properly cooked?
46:47
SPEAKER_00: Meaning, is it ready for either investment or incubation?
46:51
SPEAKER_00: So I am doing my job of advertising the program.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: But the very first question that I ask anyone that is approaching us directly: who is your immigration agent?
47:00
SPEAKER_00: Have you received the proper advice?
47:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's why we deal with immigration agents, with immigration firms, our channel partners.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: We want them to be the very first line of defense to get us people that are ready in many of the senses, such as business ready, financially ready, migration ready, because we don't want to be investing our time and money into someone that is planning to come here 10 years from now.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: We want someone that is ready now.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: So the value chain, we don't give commissions to agents, we don't incentivize agents, we give them a flat price.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Flat prices are wholesale price for them to bring a client, depending on the stage of the business.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: If someone is bringing us clients that are great bootstrap-based businesses, they get a very low fee from us for us to do proper vetting, assessing, and incubation of that business.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: Now, how much is that price?
48:00
SPEAKER_00: It really varies on how many partners.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: Are we taking them through an angel path, venture capital path, or an incubator price?
48:06
SPEAKER_00: And of course, for the sake of this podcast, I'm not going to give you the exact price, but feel free to contact me for that price list for anyone that is listening.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: Second stage is for someone that has a minimum viable product, meaning they created something, but it's not an active company yet.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: So it requires a lot more incubation.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And because of that, incubators would charge them more money.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Angel groups would spend more time during their due diligence.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: So the package costs a little bit more.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: And a third stage, and that's the majority of the market, idea stage people.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: They said I've invented a better way to solve somebody else's problem.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a great product.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't have anything yet.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a business plan yet.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a website yet.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a proof of concept yet.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: In that case, they can hire us.
48:51
SPEAKER_00: We will help them identify the markets, competitive research, innovation path, patents if needed, create and help them with the minimum viable product to make sure we can prove what they're doing is working.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: That's going to cost more.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: Now let's talk about the money.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: In this industry, and I have seen this product pathway being sold for over five years already.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: It is actually the most profitable path for immigration firms.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: They typically make double of what they're doing for selling Portugal, for selling EB5, for selling Malta or any other.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: And that should give you an indication how much money there is in it.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, immigration agents typically are looking where is the money?
49:38
SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you they're making double on this program than what they're making on others.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: So what you're doing is you're giving them a fixed price for your services.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: You're giving the immigration agent a fixed price for your services, and it differs depending on the degree of work involved on your end, the readiness of the candidate, the readiness of the business.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: And then you leave the agents free essentially to uh add on their own margins after that.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: There is a market price.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: The price is different market by market.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: So uh, for example, in Iran, as one of the popular countries for this program, prices are typically lower than in uh United Emirates.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: So almost by twice the difference.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: So it is the immigration agents locally that are setting up the price for their services, for our services, incubation price is a fixed price advertised on websites.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Anyone can get that as the direct price.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: Talking about these endorsing bodies that you have in Canada, I know different programs have different ways for of selecting who is going to be an endorsing body.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: How does that happen in Canada?
50:53
SPEAKER_01: Who's saying this or that incubator or angel group can be uh an endorsing body?
51:00
SPEAKER_00: So in Canada, there used to be an association of incubators that was originally involved in it.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Now, for the past five plus years, it is c it is an organization called NACO, which is National Angel Capital Organization, that provides the licensing or ability for you to be endorsed or designated by the Government of Canada.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: The way for you to get you to become one of those companies, if you already owned an incubator operated for at least two years, if you are providing already a local-based incubation and acceleration, you can apply.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: Waiting line for you to be approved is multi-year.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: So you cannot just wake up one day and say, hey, I want to be one of these designated organizations.
51:47
SPEAKER_00: If we're using angel investment as the path, as an example, in Canada within 40 angel investment groups, only nine of them are designated.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I work with five of those groups that are active.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: When it comes to incubators, there are hundreds of non-designated accelerators, incubators, co-working spaces in Canada, but only around 30, 40 of them have been designated by NACO to be able to issue that letter of support.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: And part of the designation, they're looking at a course curriculum, they're looking at how much money the incubator is going to charge clients, uh, what type of programming they're offering, do they have facilities for people to land in after they receive their permanent residency?
52:32
SPEAKER_00: What kind of mentorship is being provided?
52:34
SPEAKER_00: So there is a strict approval process.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: Not everyone can get through.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: I am one of the lucky ones that I actually work within those designated organization groups, in some cases exclusively, where we help them do all their processing.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want to compare the Canada startup visa to some of the other options on the market that are similar products.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the probably the three best analogies that I can think of are the US E2 rather than EB5.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say the startup or innovator visas of the UK and the highly qualified activity in Portugal, I would say.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: Um can you can you compare Canada startup visa to each of those?
53:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh how does it compare favorably, I guess, to those?
53:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, it comes back to too good to be true.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, under innovator in UK, there is a mandate of specific level of success.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: How many people you have to hire, what kind of revenue you have to generate, how many contracts you have to sign.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: That is UK path.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: None of those are parameters for Canada startup visa.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: There is no investment requirement.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: There is no hiring requirement.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: It's great to provide a line of sight and a path for the Canada's economic impact that you're going to hire a lot of people, but no one is holding you to it.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: There is no specific dollar value of the size of the business, small business or large business.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: There is no specific area of business as long as it is innovative.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: So if you want to bring in an internet technology-based company, or if you want to bring a new restaurant concept, or if you want to bring new farming methodology or new medical device to Canada.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: So there is no specific area of, I would say, concentration, even though a lot of people do think that it's mostly for IT companies.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: So when we're comparing E2, EB5, when we're comparing uh Innovator Visa, each one of them has priority sectors, priority categories, minimum performance requirements.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: Canada does not require any of that.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: What Canada wants is for you to bring in a great concept.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: It is almost like residency by proposal rather than residency by your action, which other programs require you to do.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: And I've coined the term, we want to say coin.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: I started to use a residency by proposal about two years ago.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh Rahelia said he's gonna steal that from me, so go ahead.
55:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh but in reality, that's what it is.
55:25
SPEAKER_00: Once your proposal gets approved by the designated organization, you can apply directly for permanent residency without even ever stepping foot in Canada.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: You can do your entire waiting in your own country.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: We have people from Hong Kong, from uh from Vietnam, we have people from Iran, from all over the world sitting and waiting until they get permanent residency, until they come and visit Canada, receive their permanent residency card right at the border.
55:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like if somebody wanted to design from scratch the ideal program to provide permanent residency from an investor point of view, that product would be the SUV program.
56:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, from every category, when you compare it, Christian, I would say that if we compare it to the EB5 program, why because it's North America focused and if North America is uh a destination for many entrepreneurs around the world, you start to look at the alternatives in EB5, industry that I know very well, the SUV program is four times cheaper, five times faster, it's reliable, meaning that your money isn't exposed to potentially being paid back at some uh point in time, as you do when you invest in an EB5 product.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: It can't be guaranteed.
56:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh and the destination of Canada, yeah, maybe it might be colder than the US, but it's on every list of top destinations uh to live in and safer, happier people.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: So I'm I would start to think about the SUV program as an alternative to EB5.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Well the EB5 program is entirely passive investment, though, whereas that's not the case for Canada SUV.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: On the regional center.
57:18
SPEAKER_03: But if you want to open a business, it's active.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: Most people do regional center, right?
57:24
SPEAKER_02: 94% or whatever.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: I think the EB5 program what what it's facing is an existential crisis now with uh the amount of time that's involved in terms of waiting.
57:36
SPEAKER_02: I went to the USCIS website just now.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: It's 58.5 months before you're approved for temporary residency in EB5.
57:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh that's not permanent, that's temporary residency.
57:50
SPEAKER_01: And what if you're what if your country is in retroaggression?
57:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's even longer.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: So uh you know I think a lot of consideration should be really provided for this program because if you're trying to get to North America in a way where you control your destiny and it does not have any performance requirements, right?
58:11
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to create X number of jobs or an X number of industries.
58:15
SPEAKER_02: E2 is not a path to permanent anything.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: E2 is just a way to get to the US and then hope that you stay by continuing to fund a business that might or might not be your your life's passion.
58:27
SPEAKER_02: This program has uh a lot of unique attributes, I think.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: And one of the benefits of getting your Canadian passport, you can freely travel in and out of U.S.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: I live an hour drive away from U.S.'s border, so or half an hour boat ride to for me to come from Toronto to Rochester.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh so if you want to get easier access to US, a lot of high net worth individuals spend half a year plus a day in Canada, and the rest of it they go down to Florida to enjoy their warm weather and warm people there.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: So it gives you that access that uh other passports just won't.
59:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I forgot to mention the lack of a green card.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, green card sometimes is considered a great thing, but then there's the tax implications, right?
59:13
SPEAKER_02: That I'm sure my friend uh Ahmad would hear in the Middle East a lot when it comes to the U.S.
59:18
SPEAKER_02: uh EB5 program.
59:20
SPEAKER_02: Canada doesn't have that type of uh citizenship-based tax.
59:23
SPEAKER_00: Right, we we don't tax based on citizenship, we have a taxation system based on residency, but there's many other advantages over those people that are looking to come to the U.S.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: There is no gift tax, there is no inheritance tax, there's many other ways to preserve your wealth here, especially generationally, and of course, free health care, cheaper education for kids, and one of the happiest places on earth.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh on the Hanley Passport Index, one of the top 10 passports in the world.
59:50
SPEAKER_00: 185 countries, I believe, uh, we get access with our passport.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: And and how long after PR do you are you eligible for citizenship in Canada?
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: It's actually a very quick process, and you don't have to even go to that process.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: I use my own mother-in-law as an example.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: She was born in America, she came to Canada, uh, she got married, she has been in Canada over 50 years as a permanent resident.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: She never wanted to go to the next level of getting citizenship.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: In my own experience, in my cases, three to five years you spend in Canada as the permanent resident with the days accounted for, you can now apply for your passport.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's a very smooth experience as well.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Ahmad had uh is telling me in the chat here, he's got a final uh curveball for you.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: What is it, Ahmad?
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: Finally won.
1:00:40
unknown: Finally.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_03: It's not a curveball per se.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_03: No, I I I mean this this question because you know you mentioned the bad apples, and I don't want to give them any ideas, but because you were talking about the EB5, one of the good things about the EB5 is that you may get your money back.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_03: In the startup, it's a bit more risky.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_03: You do have an asset, but it's a bit more risky.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_03: But let's say somebody goes there and you know, he decides that he wants to recoup his money after two weeks, one month.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_03: Can he sell his share of the company if he's one of the five partners after you know two weeks, get his money back?
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you think it's a curveball, it's actually a really good question.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: This is what I promote to clients.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Government of Canada has over four and a half thousand different grants.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: If you end up keeping your business, you get your money from if you hire anyone in a business, you get money from government for helping employers to hire them.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: You can spend a lot less money on taxes if you're spending money through your business instead of personally, like car expenses as an example.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: You can get travel grants if you are exporting your business products around the world.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: You can get research and development grants.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: Anyone from 30 to 80 percent of your entire payroll could get covered by cover by get covered by government grants.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_00: You get much better access to loans.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_00: And after you age your company for two to three years, now you can go into other channels of immigration and start offering for your own company, intercompany transfers, or even yes, go and sell the company, considering you have a fully functioning website, company, product, marketing plan, everything is turnkey.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: You can definitely get your money back through selling that business if you don't want it anymore, whether it's just a share of the company or the entire business.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of marketplaces that want age businesses, good businesses, or good investment opportunities.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: That's it for today, folks.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, I want to remind you to follow our work on iMIDaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: Home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.