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“The Perfect Neighbor” · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi guys, welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
0:04
Speaker 1: I will be your host today Emily Simpson with my
0:08
Speaker 1: sidekick Shane Shane. First of all, just a reminder if
0:12
Speaker 1: you guys have been listening to us on the two
0:14
Speaker 1: t's network, we have now moved over to our own feed,
0:17
Speaker 1: So if you want to continue to enjoy all of
0:19
Speaker 1: the Legally Brunette episodes, which will be weekly, please come
0:23
Speaker 1: and find us and follow us and leave a review
0:26
Speaker 1: and listen to us there. Anyway, last week we went
0:29
Speaker 1: into the murdaw murders, which I a couple of people
0:32
Speaker 1: dm me and said that you're supposed to pronounce it
0:34
Speaker 1: murder doc.
0:35
Speaker 2: I was about to tell you that, yeah, like with
0:37
Speaker 2: a c K. I thought, well, I don't know. They
0:40
Speaker 2: said c K like Murdoc but the murdering man.
0:44
Speaker 1: Okay, So anyway, I think down in the South they
0:47
Speaker 1: say Murdoc just like his name was Alex with an X,
0:50
Speaker 1: but they pronounced.
0:51
Speaker 2: It the past other worries.
0:54
Speaker 1: Yeah that is, But anyway, I just wanted to do
0:57
Speaker 1: just a little bit more info on them. So the
1:00
Speaker 1: infamous hunting lodge where Alex Murdoch murdered his wife and
1:04
Speaker 1: son is now up for sale. It was in a
1:06
Speaker 1: Daily Mail article the South Carolina Mozella estate that previously
1:11
Speaker 1: belonged to Alex Murdoch is struggling to sell despite stunning
1:16
Speaker 1: new renovations. The home was last sold for one million
1:20
Speaker 1: in February of twenty twenty four to a businessman named
1:23
Speaker 1: Alex Blair of Rockville, who bought the forty eight acre
1:27
Speaker 1: property at an auction. It's actually a seventeen hundred eight
1:31
Speaker 1: property sold out, but yeah, they've obviously He's.
1:35
Speaker 2: Like, you can have the part with all the blood
1:37
Speaker 2: and brain splatter, Yes, and I'll keep th rest. That's
1:41
Speaker 2: what he did.
1:42
Speaker 1: He has now placed it back on the market, but
1:45
Speaker 1: it appears not even a sweeping makeover is enough to
1:48
Speaker 1: erase the mansion's past. The approximately fifty three hundred square
1:52
Speaker 1: foot home has now been listed for fifty days at
1:55
Speaker 1: two point two million, but no buyers have taken the bait.
1:59
Speaker 1: I don't know which you want to live somewhere where
2:00
Speaker 1: someone was murdered? No?
2:02
Speaker 2: Never, No land like that should be flattened and reconstructed.
2:07
Speaker 1: So you think a million dollar renovation like just you're
2:11
Speaker 1: just covering up.
2:12
Speaker 2: Yes me, I don't know what the market says. That's me.
2:15
Speaker 2: Maybe people down there. Maybe there's a lot of homes
2:18
Speaker 2: there where there's hunting accidents.
2:20
Speaker 1: A lot of hunting accidents. I don't know. I mean
2:23
Speaker 1: it is a little creepy. I don't know if I
2:24
Speaker 1: could live some I don't think I could ever live.
2:26
Speaker 2: You have to legally disclose if someone died. Oh yeah,
2:29
Speaker 2: of course in California. I don't know.
2:30
Speaker 1: Well this property, I mean clearly everyone everyone knows. I
2:35
Speaker 1: mean there's people taking field trips there and taking pictures
2:38
Speaker 1: of it.
2:39
Speaker 2: So.
2:40
Speaker 1: Photos shared by listing agency brown Land Plantation Advisors show
2:46
Speaker 1: the recently expanded four bedroom, five bathroom plantation style of state.
2:50
Speaker 1: Since it sits on a whopping forty eight acres, which
2:53
Speaker 1: is significantly smaller than its original seventeen one hundred, there's
2:57
Speaker 1: plenty of room for riding trails. The realtor this estate
3:01
Speaker 1: is an exceptional blend of luxury, privacy and functionality, ideal
3:05
Speaker 1: for those seeking a country lifestyle with peak aboo views,
3:10
Speaker 1: I mean, with space to entertain.
3:16
Speaker 2: Please come look at as featured on snap and in
3:21
Speaker 2: the courtrooms.
3:22
Speaker 1: Oh yes, so what see you were making me laugh?
3:26
Speaker 1: Space entertain or simply enjoy the stunning low country landscape.
3:31
Speaker 1: Despite the damning evidence against Murdoch, Alex Blair came forward
3:35
Speaker 1: last year in an attempt to clear the socialite turn
3:38
Speaker 1: murderer's name. He told realtor dot com and back in
3:41
Speaker 1: October of twenty twenty four that he tore down the
3:43
Speaker 1: kennel well. The kennel was gone, that's where the murders
3:46
Speaker 1: took place, but still possesses the kennel door and window
3:50
Speaker 1: that contained the bullet holes from the June twenty twenty
3:53
Speaker 1: one shooting well, so he held on to evidence. He said,
3:57
Speaker 1: the placement of the bullet holes in the door suggests
3:59
Speaker 1: that Murdoch did not kill them. I don't know how
4:02
Speaker 1: that suggests that he didn't kill them. Murdoch is a
4:06
Speaker 1: big man, he was even bigger back then, and he's
4:08
Speaker 1: too big for the bullets to have gone through and
4:10
Speaker 1: the way they did. He explained. Maybe it was karma
4:12
Speaker 1: for other things that he did, but I don't think
4:14
Speaker 1: he killed them. He added that anyone would be hard
4:16
Speaker 1: pressed to find a property in South Carolina's low Country
4:19
Speaker 1: without a blemish. Oh well, this is what you were saying.
4:21
Speaker 1: There's probably a lot of hunting accidents and the property
4:25
Speaker 1: down there, and with.
4:26
Speaker 2: Forty eight acres, if you just flatten it the home
4:29
Speaker 2: and then you can build anywhere. I mean to, It's
4:31
Speaker 2: not like it's one little lot where you have to
4:33
Speaker 2: build it the same way, same entrance, same everything. This
4:37
Speaker 2: is forty eight acres. You could build anywhere.
4:39
Speaker 1: You're saying, make it look completely different.
4:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be. Yeah.
4:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. There was also one more thing about Murdoch, and
4:44
Speaker 1: I meant to mention this when we did it in
4:46
Speaker 1: our previous episode. You know, we were talking about motive
4:48
Speaker 1: and why he might have killed his wife and son,
4:51
Speaker 1: and we went into a motive a little bit, and
4:53
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention that, allegedly, I don't know if
4:57
Speaker 1: it's true because I don't think anyone could confirm it,
4:59
Speaker 1: but that there were rumblings that his wife had gone
5:02
Speaker 1: to meet with a divorce attorney. Oh and so.
5:05
Speaker 2: So that didn't help her situation with So.
5:07
Speaker 1: That is another thing that could have been a motive,
5:10
Speaker 1: because what it's always.
5:11
Speaker 2: Well, then he would lose the money which is used
5:13
Speaker 2: for his drug addiction.
5:14
Speaker 1: Is it's normally cheaper to keep her. But I guess
5:17
Speaker 1: in his mind it's cheaper to murder her.
5:20
Speaker 2: I guess, so if you would like to leave me,
5:26
Speaker 2: I will give you thirty days notice. Just go. That
5:28
Speaker 2: is correct, Just go. Yes, no, you leave, I'm not leaving.
5:32
Speaker 2: You leave.
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6:36
Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna move on to the Perfect Neighbor,
6:39
Speaker 1: the Susan Lawrence. That's the woman that is. She called
6:43
Speaker 1: herself the perfect neighbor. That's why they called it that.
6:46
Speaker 2: She called herself the perfect neighbor.
6:48
Speaker 1: Yes, she in one of the phone calls to the
6:51
Speaker 1: police that they had recorded, and.
6:55
Speaker 2: I thought it was this pure sarcasm from the no.
6:58
Speaker 1: She literally said to the please, I'm the perfect neighbor.
7:01
Speaker 1: Like I'm just this, you know kind.
7:05
Speaker 2: She's a single. She was laughing stuck at the police
7:08
Speaker 2: station that doesn't know thereby called all the time.
7:11
Speaker 1: I know, all right, let's just go and go over
7:13
Speaker 1: briefly this case. If you haven't watched it yet, it's
7:16
Speaker 1: on Netflix. It's been out for like, I don't know,
7:18
Speaker 1: just a week now, but everyone's talking about it. In
7:21
Speaker 1: June of twenty twenty three, Susan Lorenz fatally shot her
7:25
Speaker 1: neighbor A gk aj Owens and Okalla, Florida, after a
7:28
Speaker 1: long running dispute that began over neighborhood children playing near
7:32
Speaker 1: her home. Lorenz had repeatedly called nine one one and
7:36
Speaker 1: filed complaints claiming the children were loud, trespassing, and threatening her.
7:41
Speaker 1: On June second of twenty twenty three, A j Owens
7:44
Speaker 1: went to Lawrence's locked front door to confront her. Lorenz
7:47
Speaker 1: fired a gun through the door, striking Owens, who later
7:49
Speaker 1: died at the hospital. Lorenz claimed self defense under Florida's
7:53
Speaker 1: stand your ground law, saying she feared for her life.
7:56
Speaker 1: This twenty twenty five Netflix documentary explores the events leading
8:00
Speaker 1: up to the tragedy and its aftermath. Using body cam footage,
8:05
Speaker 1: nine to one one recordings, security videos, and first hand interviews,
8:09
Speaker 1: The film traces how a seemingly ordinary neighborhood feud escalated
8:13
Speaker 1: into deadly violence. It examines the broader context of race
8:17
Speaker 1: sphere in Florida's self defense laws, questioning how biases and
8:21
Speaker 1: systematic issues contribute to such outcomes. The documentary also humanizes
8:26
Speaker 1: aj Owens, a devoted mother of four, and highlights the
8:30
Speaker 1: devastating impact her death had on her family and on
8:33
Speaker 1: the community. And we're going to go into more detail,
8:36
Speaker 1: but I will tell you when I watched it the most,
8:40
Speaker 1: I think the hard Obviously, I watch true crime all
8:43
Speaker 1: the time. I don't watch housewives, I don't watch reality TV.
8:46
Speaker 1: I watch true crime and I've never I don't know
8:49
Speaker 1: when you watch true crime, like you know the ending
8:51
Speaker 1: isn't good right, well.
8:53
Speaker 2: You typically know the ending always sometimes like nightline or
8:57
Speaker 2: Dateline will be right. Kind of a mystery.
9:00
Speaker 1: But the thing that was so compelling about this documentary
9:04
Speaker 1: is that the entire story is told through real footage.
9:08
Speaker 1: They they I don't know, and there's really nothing else
9:14
Speaker 1: other than they put together all all of this to
9:18
Speaker 1: tell a story. And so you're watching it and you
9:21
Speaker 1: feel like you're in it. You feel like you live
9:23
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood because you keep seeing the same.
9:25
Speaker 2: Houses, the same on the same street, same kids.
9:28
Speaker 1: Same street, the same the police officers keep coming. Like
9:31
Speaker 1: you literally feel like you're immersed into this neighborhood and
9:34
Speaker 1: into these families and into these children.
9:36
Speaker 2: Which actually seemed like a pleasant neighborhood.
9:38
Speaker 1: It actually did.
9:39
Speaker 2: I was like always out playing. They were all neighbors,
9:41
Speaker 2: they're all friendly, They're all playing games on each other's lawns,
9:44
Speaker 2: running up and down the street, and.
9:46
Speaker 1: I kept thinking about how our kids would love to
9:48
Speaker 1: live in a neighborhood, like that they would have so
9:50
Speaker 1: much fun. They'd be outside all the time and like
9:52
Speaker 1: playing with all the other kids. All right, let's go
9:55
Speaker 1: into I. You know, after I watched it, I wanted
9:57
Speaker 1: to find out more about Susan Larenz because there was
9:59
Speaker 1: a part, do you remember. There was a part when
10:01
Speaker 1: the police came and she came to the door and
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Speaker 1: they were like, is your name Susan Lorenz or something
10:06
Speaker 1: like that, and she was like yes, and then she
10:08
Speaker 1: said it's doctor Susan Lawrence. And I'm like, a doctor.
10:11
Speaker 1: This woman's a doctor.
10:12
Speaker 2: Doctor crazy.
10:13
Speaker 1: So I googled trying to find because I was like,
10:18
Speaker 1: there's no way this woman is a doctor. There is
10:20
Speaker 1: nothing about her being a doctor. I don't know why
10:23
Speaker 1: she said that. I think it just lends to like
10:25
Speaker 1: that's clear.
10:25
Speaker 2: She said that.
10:26
Speaker 1: She said it, Yeah, she said it. She said she
10:29
Speaker 1: said like he like she was correct him. She was
10:32
Speaker 1: correcting it, like she was offended that he didn't call
10:35
Speaker 1: her doctor Susan Lorenz. But the only thing I could
10:38
Speaker 1: find was that in her trial, people testified, you know,
10:42
Speaker 1: and it just came up that she'd had different jobs.
10:45
Speaker 1: And I think currently because she said she worked from home.
10:48
Speaker 1: She was doing some kind of insurance work. I don't know.
10:50
Speaker 1: I think she had a license, maybe an insurance license.
10:53
Speaker 1: Maybe she was a claims adjuster or something something you
10:55
Speaker 1: can do from home, right from a phone and a computer.
10:58
Speaker 1: And then I guess previously she'd worked as a chef
11:02
Speaker 1: for something and that was really it. So it's she's
11:07
Speaker 1: not a doctor. So I don't know why she said that,
11:09
Speaker 1: other than it just lends to her delusional state of mind.
11:14
Speaker 2: So it's kind of self centered, kind of I think
11:17
Speaker 2: she's all knowing or whatever, right, self righteous.
11:20
Speaker 1: So this begins back in January of twenty twenty one,
11:23
Speaker 1: Susan Lorenz, who was a fifty eight year old white woman,
11:26
Speaker 1: made half a dozen calls to nine to one to
11:27
Speaker 1: one complaining about the children in her neighborhood, sometimes concerning
11:32
Speaker 1: aj Owens, four young children who are black. As Lorenz
11:36
Speaker 1: got more irritated with the children, she'd place no trespassing
11:40
Speaker 1: signs in an open field located near her rental apartment,
11:43
Speaker 1: file police reports about them, and yell racial slurs at them.
11:48
Speaker 1: Lorenz even allegedly waived guns at them, according to NBC News,
11:52
Speaker 1: and this is also according to the kids. I know
11:54
Speaker 1: in interviews they would say that witnesses reported, and Lorenz
11:57
Speaker 1: also acknowledged that she assaulted the children with racial insults,
12:01
Speaker 1: called Owen's children the N word. I can't even it's
12:04
Speaker 1: even hard for me to even say that. I can't
12:06
Speaker 1: imagine a I just it's so disturbing to me. One,
12:12
Speaker 1: the woman clearly hates children.
12:14
Speaker 2: Well, people in general, or people.
12:17
Speaker 1: She's clearly racist. I mean, she's clearly a menace to society.
12:21
Speaker 1: But my question is, I don't understand why this woman
12:24
Speaker 1: moved into that neighborhood in the first place.
12:26
Speaker 2: Probably no matter where she's lived most of her life,
12:29
Speaker 2: this is how she is. Yeah, it's like she can't
12:31
Speaker 2: get away from people, so she's just gonna complain no
12:34
Speaker 2: matter what neighborhood she's in.
12:35
Speaker 1: Right. So, on June second of twenty twenty three, an
12:39
Speaker 1: argument breaks out after Lorenz allegedly throws a pair of
12:42
Speaker 1: roller skates and swings an umbrella at two of Owen's
12:45
Speaker 1: children who are playing in the field near her apartment. Okay,
12:48
Speaker 1: let's just break down this field a little bit. Because
12:51
Speaker 1: she rents her space, and her rental unit does not
12:55
Speaker 1: have a yard attached to it.
12:57
Speaker 2: Now it's all common kind of areas.
12:59
Speaker 1: It's common area, but then this grassy area is not
13:04
Speaker 1: attached to any of the apartment.
13:05
Speaker 2: No, that's why if you look at the apartment, there's
13:07
Speaker 2: like a little kind of closed off area to walk
13:11
Speaker 2: to the patio in the front door. I figured that
13:13
Speaker 2: was kind of a way of saying, this is belongs
13:15
Speaker 2: to this house, so people wouldn't walk into that area.
13:18
Speaker 2: But you're walking in the common grass and the quote
13:20
Speaker 2: unquote front yard area. But then it has this kind
13:22
Speaker 2: of bordered off, half closed area, which I figured was
13:27
Speaker 2: the only way to distinguish that's her property, like stay
13:30
Speaker 2: off that.
13:31
Speaker 1: Lot, right, but this open area that's on the outside
13:35
Speaker 1: of her first game is a common area game.
13:38
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, the way it was done
13:41
Speaker 2: was there's all this open field grass area in front
13:44
Speaker 2: of all these structures, and if you looked, each structure
13:47
Speaker 2: had like we out of four walls. Yeah, so you
13:50
Speaker 2: could walk through a little narrow strip to get into
13:53
Speaker 2: the patio. And that's the way they designated like personal property.
13:57
Speaker 1: Right exactly. But this open space area, the way I
13:59
Speaker 1: understand it, the person that actually owns the open space area,
14:03
Speaker 1: the landlord of whatever that land is gave the children
14:06
Speaker 1: permission to play there, and so the problem is is
14:10
Speaker 1: that she's mad that these kids are playing in this
14:12
Speaker 1: open space area even though they've been given permission to
14:14
Speaker 1: play there, and then she takes it upon herself to put.
14:20
Speaker 2: And she would have complained.
14:21
Speaker 1: That is true. Yes, I just find it interesting that
14:24
Speaker 1: she takes it upon herself to put no trespassing signs
14:26
Speaker 1: on an area that does not even belong to her,
14:30
Speaker 1: that she doesn't have any ownership or or title to,
14:33
Speaker 1: and she still is like putting trust no trespassing signs
14:36
Speaker 1: out there. Let's go back to what we were talking about.
14:39
Speaker 1: So the children are playing in the field near her apartment.
14:42
Speaker 1: Allegedly she took some roller skates and threw some roller
14:45
Speaker 1: skates and swings an umbrella, and I don't know, there's
14:49
Speaker 1: all kinds of craziness going on. They also keep saying,
14:52
Speaker 1: and this doesn't show up in some of the articles
14:54
Speaker 1: I read. But there's also the issue of she allegedly
14:58
Speaker 1: stole like a like an iPad tablet from one of
15:00
Speaker 1: the kids.
15:01
Speaker 2: I had a neighbor similar. He was crazy anything, you
15:05
Speaker 2: couldn't do anything. We were hanging Christmas lights, and he
15:08
Speaker 2: called the police to complain.
15:10
Speaker 1: Wait, what neighborhood was this?
15:11
Speaker 2: This is my parents' neighborhood. It's actually neighborhood we lived
15:14
Speaker 2: right now. Yeah, this is in the nineties. Yeah, and
15:17
Speaker 2: he did everything he could.
15:19
Speaker 1: Wait, he called the police because you were hiding.
15:21
Speaker 2: Parks on the curb side in front of his house.
15:25
Speaker 2: And he called the police, and he called a tow truck.
15:28
Speaker 2: And I was parked on open area like it was legal.
15:32
Speaker 2: Wasn't public, but yeah, oh yeah yeah. So then I
15:36
Speaker 2: got really upset. I never told you this, I don't know.
15:38
Speaker 2: So I took my truck and I parked it on
15:40
Speaker 2: his lawn. I said, okay, fine, I'll move it. And
15:43
Speaker 2: I grabbed my truck and I drove it up onto
15:46
Speaker 2: his lawn and my lights were shining into his front
15:50
Speaker 2: windows and the look on his face was priceless. And
15:55
Speaker 2: I parked it and I left. Yeah, and then he
15:57
Speaker 2: called the tow truck. Yeah, and then I moved it, okay,
16:01
Speaker 2: and he called for everything. So he's like a Susan
16:03
Speaker 2: lawn everything. Yeah, my friend's left late at night. Then
16:06
Speaker 2: they came back running in the house saying he's shooting
16:07
Speaker 2: a bb gun at us.
16:08
Speaker 1: He shot a BB gun a friend.
16:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I went out and he was shooting
16:11
Speaker 2: a BB gun. So we called the police. This guy
16:14
Speaker 2: was you couldn't when he moved, everyone celebrated. There was
16:17
Speaker 2: a block party. Oh really, yes, he was terrible. So anyway,
16:20
Speaker 2: the point is there are some people that no matter
16:22
Speaker 2: what you do, yeah, everything, they will complain out.
16:25
Speaker 1: When Owens heard what Lorenz had done, so this is
16:28
Speaker 1: the mom she and her ten year old son walked
16:30
Speaker 1: to Lorenz's apartment and knocked on the door. Lorenz did
16:33
Speaker 1: not open the door, but argued with Owens through the door. Instead,
16:37
Speaker 1: Lorenz called nine one one at eight fifty four pm
16:40
Speaker 1: and claimed the neighborhood children were trespassing on her property
16:43
Speaker 1: and threatening her. Minutes later, without waiting for police to arrive,
16:48
Speaker 1: Lorenz aimed her thirty eight caliber handgun through her locked
16:52
Speaker 1: and dead bolted door and shot Owen's in the chest.
16:55
Speaker 1: According to law enforcement, Owens was unarmed and her son
16:58
Speaker 1: stood right next to her as she collapsed onto the floor.
17:02
Speaker 1: She later died at the hospital. See this is where
17:06
Speaker 1: this is where I and you can there's the real
17:11
Speaker 1: footage of it. You can see the sun. I think
17:14
Speaker 1: he's liked ten. He's reacting and he's yelling call nine
17:17
Speaker 1: one one, and his mom's on the ground. The door's
17:21
Speaker 1: bolted and locked. It's also I believe a steel door.
17:25
Speaker 2: Well, she's inside, she laid outside. The lady is not
17:30
Speaker 2: trying to get inside. Knocking, is not trying to break
17:33
Speaker 2: down a door. There's no history of violence, there's no history.
17:36
Speaker 2: The only history is she calls the cops and they say,
17:38
Speaker 2: we didn't do anything, and then that's it. Yeah.
17:40
Speaker 1: The only hit the history right, and the little bit
17:42
Speaker 1: of history they do show is just the one incident
17:45
Speaker 1: where a j Owens the mother had.
17:48
Speaker 2: Some words with her sign.
17:50
Speaker 1: Well, she said she threw a sign at her, But
17:52
Speaker 1: the way the neighbors described it that actually witnessed it
17:56
Speaker 1: was she just she pulled the no trespassing sign out
17:59
Speaker 1: of the.
18:00
Speaker 2: And slammed it, tossed it behind her.
18:03
Speaker 1: She didn't aim at it.
18:05
Speaker 2: Was more of this trustedising sign does nothing and.
18:08
Speaker 1: Like like flippantly just threw it behind her. And actually
18:12
Speaker 1: I was actually very impressed with her. When the police
18:15
Speaker 1: came and they interviewed her and they were speaking to her,
18:18
Speaker 1: she was very calm and like de escalated, you know
18:23
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like she wasn't she wasn't acting aggressive.
18:26
Speaker 2: She wasn't she she she was like.
18:30
Speaker 1: She was like, you know, yeah, I did. I threw
18:32
Speaker 1: it down, but I didn't throw it at her. And
18:35
Speaker 1: she was like I understand, and you know, I mean
18:37
Speaker 1: you could tell that she didn't. She wasn't a violent,
18:41
Speaker 1: aggressive person.
18:42
Speaker 2: But it wasn't even the land because then I'm thinking, well,
18:44
Speaker 2: then I would just tell my kids at that point,
18:46
Speaker 2: you know what she's wrong, but just stay off her
18:49
Speaker 2: grass that grass and play elsewhere, because it was there
18:53
Speaker 2: was a lot of area. But it wasn't that it
18:55
Speaker 2: was just noises or anything they were doing.
18:56
Speaker 1: It was anything. She even would She even claimed one
18:59
Speaker 1: of the calls, she claim that they were trying to
19:00
Speaker 1: put a dog in the back of her truck. Did
19:02
Speaker 1: you remember that?
19:03
Speaker 2: And then the neighbors like, he can't even pick up
19:04
Speaker 2: that dog.
19:06
Speaker 1: I saw the dogs. It's like a poodle, but it's
19:09
Speaker 1: one of those huge ones, like a standard poodle or whatever,
19:12
Speaker 1: like those big dogs. And she claimed that one of
19:15
Speaker 1: the kids was trying to pick it up and put
19:16
Speaker 1: it in the back of her truck. I think she
19:18
Speaker 1: just made I mean she just made things up. When
19:22
Speaker 1: Susan Lorenz was first questioned by investigators, Lorenz said she
19:25
Speaker 1: thought she was in mortal danger. She claimed she heard
19:28
Speaker 1: a j Owens yelling that she was going to kill her,
19:32
Speaker 1: even though Owens was unarmed. Based on these statements, Lorenz
19:35
Speaker 1: was released without charges. Okay, let's go back to stand
19:41
Speaker 1: your ground law. We have to do a little bit.
19:42
Speaker 1: Let's get into this lall a little bit so we
19:45
Speaker 1: can have a discussion of this. So Florida enacted in
19:49
Speaker 1: two thousand and five a stand your ground law, which
19:53
Speaker 1: comes from the common law castle doctrine, which is the
19:57
Speaker 1: right to defend your home, your property without fear of prosecution, right.
20:03
Speaker 2: Well without having to retreat, without having to run away.
20:06
Speaker 2: My understanding is castle doctrine is it's your it has
20:09
Speaker 2: to be your home, whether it's rented or own, doesn't matter,
20:12
Speaker 2: if it's your residence. And then if you do not
20:16
Speaker 2: have a duty to run away if someone comes in
20:19
Speaker 2: your home, and if someone comes in your home, it's
20:22
Speaker 2: presumed to be kind of a lethal threat, free to
20:25
Speaker 2: use lethal force.
20:26
Speaker 1: So Florida's stand your Ground law expands on this. So
20:30
Speaker 1: the stand your Ground law allows a person to use
20:32
Speaker 1: deadly force for self defense in any place where they
20:34
Speaker 1: have a legal right to be. So that's the expansion
20:37
Speaker 1: of the castle doctrine. It's not just your own personal
20:40
Speaker 1: dwelling now, it's if you're anywhere.
20:42
Speaker 2: We're I'm in my car, in my office at the
20:45
Speaker 2: building or something.
20:47
Speaker 1: And also it's eliminated the duty to retreat. Florida was
20:51
Speaker 1: first in the nation to adopt the law in two
20:52
Speaker 1: thousand and five. So some of the key provisions of
20:55
Speaker 1: the law is a person is justified in using deadly
20:58
Speaker 1: force if they reason to believe it is necessary to
21:02
Speaker 1: prevent eminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another,
21:06
Speaker 1: or to prevent the eminent commission of a forcible felony.
21:11
Speaker 1: And there's no duty to retreat. So Susan Lorenz is
21:14
Speaker 1: enacting the standard ground law immediately as a defense. Now
21:19
Speaker 1: here's where it fails.
21:21
Speaker 2: It feels in lots of play.
21:22
Speaker 1: It fails in lots of ways. It fails because one,
21:26
Speaker 1: there is no your neighbor has to be allowed to
21:29
Speaker 1: come over and knock on your door. I knocked on
21:32
Speaker 1: the neighbor's door across the street. Remember what you used
21:34
Speaker 1: to have issues with our neighbor across the street, and
21:36
Speaker 1: we had to go over and knock on the door
21:39
Speaker 1: because they were out of line and they were like
21:41
Speaker 1: yelling things and they were But I would never in
21:44
Speaker 1: a million years think that when I go over there
21:45
Speaker 1: and knock on the door because I have an issue
21:47
Speaker 1: with a neighbor, that they're going to shoot me through
21:49
Speaker 1: the door. And this mother who was going over to
21:53
Speaker 1: talk to this woman about the issues with the children
21:56
Speaker 1: and whether she took this tablet and the roller skate
21:58
Speaker 1: and all those things that went down, she has every
22:00
Speaker 1: right to knock on the woman's door and say did
22:03
Speaker 1: you throw a roller skate and hit my kid? And
22:06
Speaker 1: did you take his tablet away from him? That's a normal.
22:09
Speaker 2: Well, she's not trying to get inside. That's one problem.
22:13
Speaker 2: You get to try to get inside that someone has
22:14
Speaker 2: to be coming into your space, and Susan's not doing that.
22:18
Speaker 1: She knocking the door, she banged aggressively on the door.
22:21
Speaker 1: Even if she did bang aggressively, I don't know. You
22:25
Speaker 1: can't really hear it. That's the part that's not on
22:29
Speaker 1: really on camera, so you don't see or hear like what.
22:32
Speaker 2: Actually that's still banging aggressively.
22:34
Speaker 1: But even coming over and knocking on the door.
22:36
Speaker 2: The only time I aggressively would make sense to assert
22:41
Speaker 2: that stand your ground is it's some guy that's been
22:45
Speaker 2: there multiple times and has beaten you in the past,
22:48
Speaker 2: you know, like a boyfriend. So it's like, I have
22:50
Speaker 2: every reason to believe he is trying to get inside
22:52
Speaker 2: and beat me. This is like a neighbor. We just said, quick,
22:55
Speaker 2: leave my kids alone. She's been saying that for however
22:58
Speaker 2: long this has been going on. Right, they're allowed to play,
23:01
Speaker 2: They're allowed to play. She never once was violent.
23:04
Speaker 1: No, she never distributed any violence. We know that she
23:07
Speaker 1: doesn't have a firearm or anything as far as I know,
23:10
Speaker 1: not no reason to believe.
23:11
Speaker 2: So.
23:12
Speaker 1: Also, the door is steel, I believe it's not a
23:15
Speaker 1: wooden door. It's also dead bolted. So the fact that
23:19
Speaker 1: she felt the need to pick up a firearm and
23:22
Speaker 1: shoot through the door, and you know the son standing
23:25
Speaker 1: right there, oh was there? She was right next to
23:28
Speaker 1: his mother.
23:29
Speaker 2: Mom.
23:29
Speaker 1: Yes, she could have ended up shooting him just as
23:33
Speaker 1: easily as she shot the mother.
23:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, both would be bad either.
23:39
Speaker 1: So in the standard ground law, the law provides immunity
23:41
Speaker 1: from criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits for individuals who use
23:45
Speaker 1: force and justifiable self defense. This includes a pre trial
23:49
Speaker 1: hearing where prosecutors must prove by clear and convincing evidence
23:53
Speaker 1: that the defendant's use of force was not lawful. Now,
23:57
Speaker 1: I know that the community was up in arms that
23:59
Speaker 1: she was not arrested immediately. And I did watch a
24:04
Speaker 1: video an interview with the I guess chief of police
24:08
Speaker 1: I think I forget his name, the sheriff after this
24:12
Speaker 1: documentary came out, and he said, and it made sense,
24:16
Speaker 1: according to this new standard ground law, that the burden
24:20
Speaker 1: has shifted. So the person who claims self defense, the
24:23
Speaker 1: burden isn't on them to prove that they were in
24:28
Speaker 1: fear the probably the burden is on the prosecution and
24:32
Speaker 1: the investigators to prove that the Standiard ground law doesn't apply.
24:37
Speaker 1: So that's why he said they had to make sure
24:40
Speaker 1: before making an arrest of this woman that because the
24:43
Speaker 1: burden is on them to prove that that wasn't justifiable,
24:46
Speaker 1: they had to do their due diligence and they had
24:48
Speaker 1: to do their investigating and they had to dot their
24:50
Speaker 1: i's and cross their t's and make sure everything was
24:53
Speaker 1: in check before they arrested her and so that's why.
24:58
Speaker 2: I think I saw an interview with him not long
25:00
Speaker 2: ago popped up and he was saying that we knew
25:05
Speaker 2: from the beginning we wanted to arrest her. We knew
25:08
Speaker 2: from the beginning there was no standyard ground defense, but
25:12
Speaker 2: we had to do her homework to present it to
25:14
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, you know, and all that. So he was like, no,
25:19
Speaker 2: we knew we were meaning, we weren't doubting it. We
25:22
Speaker 2: weren't skeptical, we weren't swaying one way or another. We knew.
25:26
Speaker 2: We just had to do our homework exactly.
25:29
Speaker 1: And you know, it's good that they did, because if
25:31
Speaker 1: they would have arrested her immediately without doing their due diligence,
25:35
Speaker 1: you never know, a good defense attorney could have gotten
25:38
Speaker 1: her all technical a technicality or something. So I know
25:42
Speaker 1: that the community was very no.
25:43
Speaker 3: Yea.
25:43
Speaker 2: I took it like, no, we wanted to take her down.
25:46
Speaker 2: So we spent four days preparing right exactly.
25:51
Speaker 1: Since Florida enacted the stand your ground law in two
25:53
Speaker 1: thousand and five, there's been close to I think it's
25:56
Speaker 1: thirty states to have passed similar standyard ground laws. Now,
26:02
Speaker 1: these obviously come with controversies and impacts, So the law
26:06
Speaker 1: has been the subject of ongoing debate and controversies since
26:09
Speaker 1: its passage. There's been a lot of lobbying efforts. The
26:13
Speaker 1: National Rifle Association heavily lobbied for the law, which has
26:16
Speaker 1: since been adopted in various forms by many other states. However,
26:20
Speaker 1: there has been an increase in homicide rates. Some studies
26:23
Speaker 1: have linked to and your Ground laws to an increase
26:25
Speaker 1: in homicides, particularly firearm related ones. And I did read
26:30
Speaker 1: I read a couple examples, and this made sense to
26:32
Speaker 1: me because it eliminated the duty to retreat. There wasn't
26:37
Speaker 1: that element of having to de escalate. And there was
26:40
Speaker 1: an example because.
26:41
Speaker 2: It used to be like if it could de escalate
26:44
Speaker 2: by you leaving, but now it's more.
26:47
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to.
26:48
Speaker 2: No, well, that's the whole point of duty, right, There
26:50
Speaker 2: is no duty. You just have to take care of yourself.
26:53
Speaker 2: So if someone's posing a threat to you, that's lethal.
26:57
Speaker 1: Right. But I think the problem is and this is
26:59
Speaker 1: where it's It looks good on paper or in you know,
27:02
Speaker 1: in a statue, but then in practicality, I just I
27:06
Speaker 1: read an example of like two people in a parking
27:08
Speaker 1: lot who are both legally. There, they get in a
27:10
Speaker 1: fight over some loud music, and they have the opportunity
27:15
Speaker 1: to leave. You could if you're annoyed by the music,
27:18
Speaker 1: you could just leave. There's a duty to but there's
27:21
Speaker 1: no duty to retreat. So then they get in this
27:22
Speaker 1: heated argument and someone pulls a gun.
27:24
Speaker 2: Well, then it's someone then instigator. If you're an instigator
27:28
Speaker 2: in the incident, then you can't claim stand your ground.
27:31
Speaker 2: I can't go punch someone in the face, right and
27:34
Speaker 2: initiate an argument and a physical altercation, and then they
27:39
Speaker 2: come after me and then I kill them. And I said, oh,
27:42
Speaker 2: I was standing my ground. It's like, well, you initiated
27:44
Speaker 2: the altercation. That's that destroys or eliminates the standard ground defense, right,
27:52
Speaker 2: and that applied in this perfect neighbor scenario, because it
27:57
Speaker 2: was arguable, and I think they succeeded in saying she
27:59
Speaker 2: was an instigator. She was constantly calling the police, she
28:02
Speaker 2: was constantly yelling at the kids, so she was inviting
28:05
Speaker 2: this behavior.
28:07
Speaker 1: Well also, I believe I think I read in an
28:09
Speaker 1: article that she had done research on stand your ground
28:13
Speaker 1: prior to the Well, that's.
28:16
Speaker 2: The part She's like, let me see what my options are.
28:20
Speaker 1: When I was saying that in practicality on a piece
28:23
Speaker 1: of paper, it sounds good, but when you actually put
28:28
Speaker 1: it into practice, the problem is is that if people
28:31
Speaker 1: are aware of the stand your ground law, then the
28:34
Speaker 1: defense can always be I felt imminent fear. I'm just
28:38
Speaker 1: saying she did research on the law. I think she
28:40
Speaker 1: was looking it up. She terms to you, I was
28:42
Speaker 1: fearful of my life. I thought she was going to
28:45
Speaker 1: kill me.
28:46
Speaker 2: I thought she was going to She was looking at
28:49
Speaker 2: what her options were to commit a crime against this lady.
28:52
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, you could, at the end of
28:54
Speaker 1: the day, you could even argue it was premeditated. She
28:57
Speaker 1: had a gun close by, she stole the kid's tablet.
29:00
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean maybe she wanted it to
29:02
Speaker 1: escalate to that point. I mean never, I would never
29:04
Speaker 1: prosecute her as premeditated because you probably couldn't get a
29:07
Speaker 1: jury to convict on premeditated. She was convicted on manslaughter.
29:12
Speaker 1: But all right, So, four days after the shooting, deputies
29:16
Speaker 1: conducted a second interview with Lorenz, during which she admitted
29:19
Speaker 1: to researching sanyar ground and self defense laws in the
29:22
Speaker 1: recent past. The Sheriff's office determined Lorenz's killing of a
29:25
Speaker 1: j Owens was not justified under the law, and they
29:28
Speaker 1: arrested her. Lorenz was charged with manslaughter with a firearm,
29:32
Speaker 1: culpable negligence, battery, and two counts of assault. On July
29:36
Speaker 1: tenth of twenty twenty three, Lorenz pleads not guilty to
29:39
Speaker 1: all charges. She goes to trial, and then in August
29:43
Speaker 1: sixteenth of twenty twenty four, a six person jury convicts
29:47
Speaker 1: Susan Lorenz of manslaughter with a firearm after a week
29:51
Speaker 1: long trial. Evidence includes her nine to one one calls,
29:54
Speaker 1: witness accounts, and ballistics proving she fired through a closed,
29:58
Speaker 1: locked door. I do also know during the trial. I mean,
30:03
Speaker 1: there were character witnesses on her behalf, and there were
30:05
Speaker 1: so many people that came forward and said they couldn't
30:07
Speaker 1: see her being like that, and she was like heavily
30:09
Speaker 1: involved in her church and very helpful.
30:12
Speaker 2: But yeah, well there's hours of bodycam footage that show otherwise,
30:16
Speaker 2: right exactly, And I'll go with that.
30:18
Speaker 1: And you know what my other question was, And I
30:20
Speaker 1: could not find this, and I don't know why I
30:22
Speaker 1: couldn't find it. I wanted to know if she had
30:24
Speaker 1: any children. My assumption would be no, or if she
30:28
Speaker 1: was ever married, and I couldn't find anything. So I'm
30:33
Speaker 1: just going to assume, based upon her actions and the
30:35
Speaker 1: way she that she that she's very likable, that she's
30:39
Speaker 1: never been married, and that she's never had any children.
30:42
Speaker 2: Or on the other hand, she might have been married
30:43
Speaker 2: like three or four times and they've all had a
30:45
Speaker 2: mysterious death.
30:47
Speaker 1: No, maybe all right. So then in November twenty fifth
30:50
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty four, Lorenzo's sentenced to twenty five years
30:53
Speaker 1: in prison. The judge deemed the shooting quote completely unnecessary
30:59
Speaker 1: end quote, adding in this case, Miss Lorenz was behind
31:02
Speaker 1: the door, the door was locked. She had already called
31:06
Speaker 1: law enforcement. They were en route. She knew they were
31:09
Speaker 1: en route. She was in a relatively safe position. For
31:12
Speaker 1: some reason, she went into her room and found a gun.
31:15
Speaker 1: She could have stayed in the room and put another
31:17
Speaker 1: locked door between her and Miss Owens, but she came
31:20
Speaker 1: back out, put herself in front of the door, and
31:23
Speaker 1: at the time she fired the gun through the door,
31:25
Speaker 1: she was safe. That was a good way, just to
31:27
Speaker 1: break it down and make it very simple.
31:29
Speaker 2: She could have also returned the tablet.
31:31
Speaker 1: She could have answered the door and apologized.
31:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would have been a most person.
31:38
Speaker 1: Lorenz is serving her prison sentence at Homestead Correctional Institute
31:42
Speaker 1: in South Florida, with a release date set for April
31:45
Speaker 1: eighth of twenty forty eight. You know, there's one other thing.
31:48
Speaker 2: Old.
31:48
Speaker 1: Was she fifty eight fifty eight when I think when
31:52
Speaker 1: the shooting occurred, So probably fifty nine to sixty by
31:55
Speaker 1: the time there.
31:57
Speaker 2: For how many years she going to be in there?
31:59
Speaker 1: Well, we have to do math. Twenty forty eight, how
32:01
Speaker 1: long is that from now? Twenty three years?
32:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you said twenty five years, So I just
32:05
Speaker 2: didn't know if there was like twenty five years but eligible.
32:08
Speaker 1: For it, I mean, I guess she could still it.
32:09
Speaker 1: She'd be like around eighty three or something. I don't
32:11
Speaker 1: know if she'll be eligible.
32:12
Speaker 2: Let's see her stay in her ground, in her cell, right,
32:15
Speaker 2: Let's see how well that goes exactly. She's going to
32:18
Speaker 2: complain about the noise and the jail.
32:20
Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell you again when I was rude
32:23
Speaker 1: awakening when I watched True crime. Obviously there's never a
32:26
Speaker 1: happy ending in true crime, but this documentary really affected me,
32:31
Speaker 1: like I sobbed.
32:32
Speaker 2: I couldn't finish it once the police were called for
32:35
Speaker 2: the murder, you know, and then they had to tell
32:38
Speaker 2: the dad that, you know, the mother of his children died,
32:42
Speaker 2: and he you know, almost fell down in tears. I mean,
32:45
Speaker 2: I didn't I don't know. I just didn't feel there
32:47
Speaker 2: was much for me to learn, and watching the rest
32:49
Speaker 2: of that and it was kind of heartbreaking.
32:51
Speaker 1: So it was really heartbreaking.
32:52
Speaker 2: It was really emotional, and I was as mad at
32:55
Speaker 2: the neighbor.
32:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you just this is mad at her. Yeah,
32:59
Speaker 1: I will. You should be, as anyone should be. But
33:02
Speaker 1: the part that was just so heartbreaking was that this
33:04
Speaker 1: documentary gives you I realized that I've never seen a real,
33:12
Speaker 1: a real scenario where exactly unfolding in real time, where
33:20
Speaker 1: she's shot, they're trying to revive her, they're doing everything
33:25
Speaker 1: possible they can. Before the ambulance arrives. The children are there,
33:30
Speaker 1: this Izzy is at the neighbor's house, and he's an
33:35
Speaker 1: emotional mess. And I kept thinking about my boys because
33:39
Speaker 1: he's like, he's like ten or eleven, he's like around
33:42
Speaker 1: the same age as our boys. And then the dad
33:45
Speaker 1: shows up quickly.
33:47
Speaker 2: And then immediately comes to learn and then she didn't survive.
33:51
Speaker 2: Now he has to deal with all this and try
33:54
Speaker 2: to comfort the children, right, So then he.
33:56
Speaker 1: Has to find all four of the children and he
33:58
Speaker 1: pulls all four over to the side, and this dad
34:01
Speaker 1: has to tell his for children.
34:03
Speaker 2: In the show, that's all.
34:04
Speaker 1: There, all of it. It's all on bodycam footage. And
34:08
Speaker 1: he pulls all four children in and has to tell
34:11
Speaker 1: them that their mother did not survive. And it was
34:14
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking.
34:18
Speaker 2: I basically gave because of the scenario, not because of
34:21
Speaker 2: the dad. There was no hope because if it's like
34:24
Speaker 2: she's going to hospital or do everything we can, then
34:26
Speaker 2: at least the kids can hold on to something. But
34:28
Speaker 2: it was like, no, there's not even anything to hope
34:30
Speaker 2: for now it's over.
34:31
Speaker 1: No, it was just it was it was heartbreaking. It
34:33
Speaker 1: was I was sobbing.
34:35
Speaker 2: Well, now I think about it. Then they had to
34:37
Speaker 2: live with the neighbors still for four days. I mean,
34:39
Speaker 2: I'm sure they went to the dad's house and all lot,
34:41
Speaker 2: but I mean, like that then knowing for however many
34:43
Speaker 2: days that then all the neighbors know that she's still there.
34:46
Speaker 2: Why isn't she arrested even though we know they were
34:48
Speaker 2: doing their homework.
34:49
Speaker 1: I don't think she went back to that apartment though.
34:50
Speaker 1: I don't know where she went after the.
34:51
Speaker 2: Sh Karen or the Karen.
34:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, her name was Susan, but the kids called her
34:56
Speaker 1: the Karen. Yeah. Anyway, I was just that was so
35:01
Speaker 1: just raw and emotional for me to watch those children.
35:05
Speaker 1: I realize I've never seen anything like that in real
35:07
Speaker 1: time and not like a depiction or someoney acting. It
35:13
Speaker 1: was like those children really learned that right then. So
35:24
Speaker 1: what other national cases have used the Stanyard ground law. Well,
35:27
Speaker 1: when we were doing a little research on this, we
35:29
Speaker 1: realized that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Do you remember
35:32
Speaker 1: that case from back in twenty twelve.
35:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like an hoa security guarden, Yeah, security
35:37
Speaker 2: guard or.
35:37
Speaker 1: Something unlike Susan Lorenz. George Zimmerman was not charged for
35:41
Speaker 1: the death of Trayvon Martin because investigators found that he
35:44
Speaker 1: was within the bounds of the Stanyard Ground Law when
35:47
Speaker 1: he shot Trayvon Martin in twenty twelve. So, in February
35:51
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, Trayvon Martin was a seventeen year old black
35:54
Speaker 1: teenager and he was visiting his father, Tracy Martin, in Stanford, Florida,
35:58
Speaker 1: after receiving a ten day suspension and from Crop Senior
36:01
Speaker 1: High School. George Zimmerman was a twenty eight year old
36:05
Speaker 1: volunteer neighborhood Watch captain for the retreat at Twin Lakes
36:09
Speaker 1: Gated community in Sanford, Florida, and this was at the
36:12
Speaker 1: time of the shooting. Trayvon was walking home from a
36:15
Speaker 1: convenience store when Zimmerman, who claimed he looked suspicious, followed
36:20
Speaker 1: him and called nine one one. Despite being told by
36:23
Speaker 1: dispatchers not to pursue, Zimmerman went ahead and confronted Martin.
36:28
Speaker 1: A struggle ensued, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest,
36:33
Speaker 1: killing him.
36:33
Speaker 2: So he approached.
36:34
Speaker 1: He approached after being told not.
36:37
Speaker 2: I forgot about that part.
36:40
Speaker 1: Zimmerman claimed self defense, saying Martin attacked him and that
36:43
Speaker 1: he feared for his life. Florida's Staniard Ground law became
36:47
Speaker 1: central to both the legal proceedings and the national debate.
36:50
Speaker 1: Although Zimmerman didn't formally invoke the law during trial, it
36:54
Speaker 1: influenced the police's initial decision not to arrest him for
36:58
Speaker 1: several weeks as they accepted his self defense claim under
37:01
Speaker 1: its protection. The case sparked massive public outrage and protests
37:06
Speaker 1: across the country, leading to renewed scrutiny of stanyard ground
37:09
Speaker 1: laws and their disproportionate impact on racial minorities. In July
37:14
Speaker 1: of twenty thirteen, George Zimmerman was acquitted of second degree
37:18
Speaker 1: murder and manslaughter, with jurors concluding the prosecution hadn't disproven
37:24
Speaker 1: his self defense claim because remember, the prosecution has the
37:27
Speaker 1: burden and the standiard ground to prove that it wasn't
37:30
Speaker 1: a standard ground. But there was no reasonable you know, fear.
37:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, once you claim the defense, the burden shifts to
37:38
Speaker 2: the prosecutor to show otherwise. Right when you told me
37:41
Speaker 2: how the police instructed him to stay away, yeah, and
37:47
Speaker 2: then and then he didn't.
37:48
Speaker 1: Right.
37:49
Speaker 2: So now I'm thinking, well, because I know in Florida
37:51
Speaker 2: that's one of the things is you can't be an
37:53
Speaker 2: instigator like he went and asked for trouble.
37:56
Speaker 1: Right. And it also makes me wonder because also part
37:59
Speaker 1: of the law is that you have to legally be
38:01
Speaker 1: allowed to be where you are.
38:03
Speaker 2: Was he on duty security guard?
38:05
Speaker 1: He was. He was like a volunteer, like a neighborhood
38:08
Speaker 1: watch volunteer type of security.
38:10
Speaker 2: So some organized way, but I was there, right.
38:12
Speaker 1: But I'm saying I'm saying you can make the argument
38:16
Speaker 1: because the police or because he was warned not to
38:20
Speaker 1: coach him that that I don't know.
38:23
Speaker 2: Maybe I want to feel the need to approach him
38:25
Speaker 2: though if the cops are on their way.
38:27
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's the same thing with the susan lawrence.
38:30
Speaker 2: If someone's trying to break into my home or something,
38:32
Speaker 2: or I'm seeing him down the street and I call
38:34
Speaker 2: and report it and say you need to come there's
38:37
Speaker 2: someone breaking into his home, and then they're like, Okay, yeah,
38:40
Speaker 2: stay where you are, don't go there, we have someone reporting.
38:45
Speaker 2: Why would I feel the need to like approach the suspect.
38:50
Speaker 2: I'm at most I would want to just kind of
38:52
Speaker 2: keep tabs on where they are once they don't approach me,
38:55
Speaker 2: or I can tell the police when they get here
38:57
Speaker 2: that he moved over there. But I wouldn't feel the need.
38:59
Speaker 2: Some people, well, I don't know.
39:01
Speaker 1: Well, that was my point in the whole when they
39:02
Speaker 1: how they stand your ground walls have eliminated the duty
39:06
Speaker 1: to retreat part. I feel like it's led to more violence.
39:10
Speaker 1: Instead of having the mindset that if you can de escalate,
39:14
Speaker 1: you have a duty to de escalate. He he had time,
39:18
Speaker 1: the ability to de escalate. He just didn't.
39:21
Speaker 2: He called yes, way, nothing even happened. He could have
39:23
Speaker 2: state where he was.
39:24
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
39:25
Speaker 2: And so I wasn't even to de escalate. It was
39:27
Speaker 2: a keep it as a non criminal scenario.
39:30
Speaker 1: That's my point. Yeah, just let the police come and yeah,
39:35
Speaker 1: question him and then he would still be alive.
39:38
Speaker 2: And yeah, here we are. That was a big deal.
39:41
Speaker 2: I remember on that that was out.
39:44
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was huge. I remember it too, back
39:46
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve.
39:46
Speaker 2: Because you had minors, uh, you had someone that was
39:51
Speaker 2: playing cop, you had a race in there. It was
39:56
Speaker 2: just a lot of things profiling right.
39:59
Speaker 1: What does the public have to say about stand your
40:02
Speaker 1: ground laws? So, gun right supporters argue people should not
40:05
Speaker 1: have to try and retreat before defending themselves.
40:07
Speaker 2: Gun right supporters support shooting a gun.
40:10
Speaker 1: This was said by Alan Gottlieb, who is the founder
40:13
Speaker 1: of the Second Amendment Foundation. He pointed to a Florida
40:16
Speaker 1: homeowner who recently shot and killed a man suspected of
40:18
Speaker 1: shooting a police officer as the man tried to break
40:21
Speaker 1: into his house. While that case could have been covered
40:24
Speaker 1: by other self defense laws. Gottlieb said, stand your ground
40:27
Speaker 1: laws offer reassurance. It's made a very big difference in
40:31
Speaker 1: self defense situations, he said. Gun control activists say the
40:35
Speaker 1: increasing presence of guns and laws like stanyard ground are
40:39
Speaker 1: a deadly combination. Representative Lucy Macbeth, who entered politics after
40:44
Speaker 1: her son was slain at a Florida gas station in
40:46
Speaker 1: twenty twelve by a white man who was angry over
40:49
Speaker 1: the loud music playing in the black teenager's car. This
40:52
Speaker 1: is the case I was telling you about. Said, laws
40:55
Speaker 1: like stanyard ground or shoot first laws give people like
40:58
Speaker 1: Jordan's killer, my Son's hill, or the idea that you
41:01
Speaker 1: can shoot first and ask questions later. Michael Dunn used
41:05
Speaker 1: to stand your ground law and his defense, but was
41:07
Speaker 1: convicted and is serving a life sentence. So Michael Dunn
41:11
Speaker 1: is the one that shot the teenager. And that's what
41:12
Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier when I was saying I
41:14
Speaker 1: read about a case, it was this one. It was
41:15
Speaker 1: where you can de escalate the situation by leaving. If
41:19
Speaker 1: his music is bothering you, you can get in your
41:22
Speaker 1: car and you can drive away. It doesn't have to
41:25
Speaker 1: get to the point of a stand your ground defense
41:28
Speaker 1: if you can de escalate, And the problem is is
41:31
Speaker 1: that it took away that duty to retreat that you're just.
41:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't know if that's what popped in
41:35
Speaker 2: this person's head.
41:37
Speaker 1: I don't know what popped into their head, but it didn't.
41:40
Speaker 1: In his case, it didn't work. He was convicted and
41:43
Speaker 1: is serving a life sentence. So I mean, that's a
41:45
Speaker 1: scenario where it doesn't work.
41:46
Speaker 2: It.
41:46
Speaker 1: I mean it it's beneficial in cases where it's very
41:52
Speaker 1: clear cut that your life is in jeopardy and you
41:55
Speaker 1: have the right to defend yourself. But in so many
41:57
Speaker 1: other cases where it's like they're in a parking lot
41:59
Speaker 1: and he's playing loud music and there's an altercation, or
42:02
Speaker 1: the Susan Lorenz case or the Trayvon Martin, it's not
42:05
Speaker 1: that clear cut. There's other ways to de escalate. There's
42:09
Speaker 1: ways that it could have been handled differently.
42:12
Speaker 2: I think that the standard ground do you retreating? All that,
42:14
Speaker 2: only it correctly applies when someone's really just reacting properly,
42:18
Speaker 2: like someone's busting in my home, so I applot it
42:21
Speaker 2: again and I shoot them, not when they think.
42:24
Speaker 1: All right, Thanks guys for listening again, let me know
42:28
Speaker 1: your opinions on stand your Ground or any of these
42:30
Speaker 1: cases that we discuss. Also if there's any other cases
42:33
Speaker 1: that you would like us to discuss. I love it
42:35
Speaker 1: when you guys always have recommendations. I truly appreciate it,
42:38
Speaker 1: so please feel free to DM me and again, make
42:40
Speaker 1: sure you follow us on our own feed legally Brunette,
42:43
Speaker 1: make sure you leave a review and make sure you're
42:45
Speaker 1: following because that's where all of our episodes will be
42:47
Speaker 1: going forward. So thanks so much, guys, Thank you,