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Writing Novels With Your Voice with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer · No Mess, No Magic

• Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the No Mess No Magic podcast with Monica Hay. I am currently laughing because this is our take two. Sarah and I had a funny tech issue on the first time. here we are again. We were just talking about how long we've known each other. So I have Sarah Elizabeth Sawyer here. We've known each other since 2022. Really? Sarah: Very possibly, very possibly, 2022, 2023. Monica Hay: It's been like almost four years then. How is it 2026? Like I... Sarah: don't even know how it's this far into the year. I'm still in January. Monica Hay: Same, same. So Sarah is a dear friend of mine who I've clearly known for a while and she teaches on Native American, writing Native Americans and also teaches dictation. So if you are wondering what the heck is dictation, it's where you write with your voice. Let me introduce my dear friend. So Sarah is a fiction author and educator who teaches writers how to dictate their novels and build sustainable, confident writing careers through fictioncourses.com. So welcome, Sarah. So excited to have you. Sarah: Thank you for having me, Monica. And I love No Mess No Magic. I think I just used that last week whenever I was sharing with my authors and talking about messy first drafts. And I just want to remind them, No Mess No Magic. And they love that. Monica Hay: Yes. I don't even know where I got that phrase. I don't think I came up with it. I think I was like scrolling at 2 a.m. on Pinterest. I don't remember. Sarah: You're the first one that I heard it from, so I credit you whenever I quote it. Like this is what Monica says. Monica Hay: Love it. I love it. So I want to start off our conversation asking what first made you experiment with dictation as a writer? What got you started? Sarah: It was most likely podcasts just like this one where some author would come on and they would talk about their fiction. They would be like a really successful author and it would get down to the writing process. And they're like, yeah, I dictate my fiction. This is going back, Monica, probably to 2011 or maybe even earlier than that. Like we're talking a long ways back that I became aware of this idea that you could speak your words instead of typing them or handwriting them. So I was like, this is incredible. They were talking about doubling their word count, like going from a thousand words to 2,000 words an hour or even more. Like it was insane. I got excited. I was like, I've got to do that. I want to try that. At that point, the only option though was Dragon Dictation, the Dragon software. And I would walk into Office Depot. I guess I'm a geek at heart. I'm not a smart geek though. So I can't really claim myself to be a geek, but I love going into office supply stories. So I would go in. Monica Hay: Mmm. Sarah: I would look at the softwares and that's, you they were boxed on the shelf. You you get the CD-ROMs, take them home, download them to your computer. I would find Dragon, you know, Dragon Dictation, like $700. And I'm like, ah, could someday I invest in that? Like if I was ever a successful author, could I invest in that? And, you know, I put it back on the shelf. And when in 2013 is when I got my first smartphone, I got my first, first smartphone. One of the first things I did was download Dragon Anywhere. Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Nice. Sarah: to my phone, like they had an app by that point and they had a trial version, downloaded it, did a couple of sentences of fiction. I was like, I've got a scene going here, posted about it on social media. was like, this could be epic. And it was, it was an epic failure. That started a seven year journey from 2013 to 2020 for me to actually make the shift from. Monica Hay: Mmm. Sarah: typing to speaking my words and that's why I teach it now because I don't want other authors to get hung up like I did on so many issues so I shortcut that for them. Monica Hay: Yeah. Seven years? Seven years. That's... Sarah: told you I'm not that smart. Monica Hay: say that. I mean, I can see where if nobody else is teaching it at the time, like what are you supposed to do? Like you just have to trial and error it yourself. Sarah: You've got to figure it out yourself. Absolutely. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah, I feel like that right now with my matchmaking program, like nobody else does anything like this. I'm just like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm like, I'm trying, but I don't have anyone to learn from on how to do this because nobody else has done this. So yeah, I feel you. Sarah: So once you have been and you are already being successful with it, then you can start teaching others how to do this. Monica Hay: Mm, I like that. I like that. ⁓ Okay, I'm very curious. So you learned about it. ⁓ I think it's really interesting to bring in the conversation of your Native American heritage here because a lot of people forget that humans are storytellers and we have had oral traditions for a very long time. And I'm very curious if, do you think that dictation can help writers reconnect with the storytelling oral tradition that we have had for centuries. Sarah: we think about it, we've had it for centuries and yes, I'm a tribal member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, get that heritage through my mother. And that is absolutely, that is how we pass down and how we've always passed down stories really in all cultures. And even think about yourself. Often we were telling stories, we told our first story before we could write it down. You know, the time you skint your knee and you're going on and on and telling this three hour story and it's like healed up before you finish telling the story. Monica Hay: Yes. Sarah: That is who we are, I think, at the core as writers. Whenever I started writing, honestly, I was actually a bit of the reverse in terms of I was five years old and I had a story I wanted to tell about kindness. And I was so shy. I knew I wouldn't be able to verbalize it at that point, but I could write. I started writing pretty early and it was not complete sentences, but my mom gave me a stack of sticky notes, a little pack of sticky notes. I wrote that down, she saved that story. My brother who was seven at the time, he illustrated it, but I did. I started stories very early and for most of us, we're not writing them down. We are telling them, we are verbalizing them and our audience is sitting there listening and that is how we are even trained to tell stories. Like how do you capture an audience with words? And that goes back to the oral tradition and we carry that into our writing, writing words on the page. Monica Hay: Right? Sarah: so that we know how to captivate an audience because we know how to tell a story long before we can get it down on paper. Monica Hay: I love that. I love that so much. I also think that, well, this is another question I had that was later on, but I'm going to bring it up now. A lot of, one of the biggest things I hear people say when I'm like, oh yeah, there's a friend of mine who teaches dictation. You should check her out. Cause I have, I work with a of people who might have a disability struggle with, with sitting down to write for whatever reason it is. And I recommend trying out dictation and people will say, I became a writer because I suck at talking. Or they say like, well, I suck at talking and I can't talk my way through writing or whatever. And so what would you say to that person? Sarah: that I'm not a great speaker. First of all, I have had some training with like oral storytelling and public speaking that may have helped me a bit with dictation, but honestly, I don't think it had all of that much of an impact because I go into a different mode when I'm dictating. Like my voice is different, the way I'm structuring my sentences is much more attuned to how I'm sitting down, writing them or typing them versus speaking my words. Really, when we think about one of the distinctions I like to make is when you're dictating your story, you are still writing. You are still a writer. You are not a speaker. You are a writer. Just because you're typing your story doesn't mean you're a typist. If you follow that logic, it would be and I had someone comment on this one time on social media. They were like, I'm a writer, not a speaker. And I'm like, well, are you are you a typist or are you a writer? Monica Hay: Mmm. Right? Yeah? Sarah: which is it, you say you're really a writer if you're not handwriting your stories or you're getting a stone tablet and a chisel? Like how far back are we going to go painting images on the walls? Like dictation has been around, it is writing. And that's first thing I always clarify with my students because they're like, well, I was writing and then I switched over and I started dictating. I was like, no, you're still writing. You're just using a different mode of getting the words on the page. And for those with physical disabilities, ⁓ my goodness. Monica Hay: Right? I'm still writing. Sarah: Well, let me just go back to it being a really old form with dictation. As long as we've had kings and scribes and pharaohs, we have, great leaders have always like dictated. And then we move into, you know, the 19th century. Some of the greatest fiction writers and most prolific writers of the 19th and 20th century dictated their stories. There are authors, just somebody brought up the author who wrote the Perry Mason novels so that the show was based on. He dictated and they said he employed Monica Hay: You Sarah: like multiple secretaries and he would dictate that he would give them the dictaphone, the recordings, and they would type up the words. So fiction writers, John Milton, Paradise Lost, like he dictated that. I believe he was blind at the time. And so he dictated that epic poem. So dictation is definitely, definitely still writing. And for authors with disabilities, they are coming to dictation because they're like, if I can't dictate, I can't continue as a writer. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yes. Sarah: And I'm like, yes, that is what I want to help you do so that you can continue to be an author. That's what you want to do. You want to craft story worlds and you're just speaking the words instead of typing them. The words are still going on the page. They are still becoming books and poems and scripts and all of those things that that make us writers. Monica Hay: Right. Yes. I love that so much. It also reminds me of the audiobooks aren't real reading kind of thing. And every time I see this online, I just want to throw my phone across the room anytime I see that conversation. And I see it all the time. I'll be on Substack, which has gotten, it used to be such a nice place over on Substack. It's not a bad place. I still like Substack. Don't get me wrong, I have one. But I'll still see these people be like, ⁓ audiobooks, but I'm just like. Sarah: Yes. Monica Hay: Why? It's still reading. It's still a book and you're still consuming it. Yeah, it's, ⁓ my gosh. Humans, I think humans are very, what is the word, maybe skeptical of things that don't require like a bit of suffering or a bit of like commitment. Like they're like, well, if you're not suffering, but like, and I don't need to say that sitting down to read is suffering. I think Sarah: It's still reading, it is still reading, it is still a book. You're still taking in that content. Monica Hay: I love sitting down to read. But a lot of people think, well, that's just a shortcut if you're listening to a book while doing the dishes, like that you're not allowed to do that. Like they, people are skeptical of these like supposed shortcuts and they're like, that's not real if it's a shortcut. I'm like, what? It's just a way of consuming the knowledge differently. Sarah: And to me. There's nothing wrong with making it effortless. And I love Greg McEwen's book, Effortless, like go check it out. Go listen to an audio book if you need to. He started his first book as essentialism, which is probably where you should start, really, really great. But then his follow up to it is effortless. Like how can we make this effortless? And that's what I do when I teach my author's dictation. Like I just revamped my course and I was like, how can I make this effortless for authors to make that shift from typing to speaking their words? Monica Hay: Exactly. Ooh, I've never, I don't think I've heard of this. I love Sarah: Audiobooks, it's the same thing. Like how can we make it effortless to read a hundred books in a year? And it's not cheating to listen, listen to audiobooks and it's not cheating to speak your words. Your words are still going down on the page and you're still sweating and you're still heart pounding as you're getting those words down. But it does make it effortless, especially like going back to authors who have disability and even those who don't, they just want to take care of their health. They don't want to be chained. Monica Hay: Yes. Yes! Sarah: to their desk, get out, take a walk and get your words down on the page at the same time. There's nothing wrong with that. Monica Hay: Yes, exactly. I love when you talked about how you dictate on the plane once. And I was like, oh my God, I strive to be that level of a human, because I'm like, I still get so nervous about being like perceived in public. I'm like, I need to get over it. I need to get over it. Sarah: I'm sorry. ⁓ my gosh. Like, and I'm sitting in a middle seat, which is like the worst seat that you could be in as far as I feel like everybody on the plane is staring at you. I'm like, let me sit on the window seat and be like in the hole, you know, where I feel like I'm for some reason less visible and I'm not, but that's where I would prefer. But yeah, I was middle seat determined to overcome that. But don't think too much of me. I only got 500 words in like in six hours of flight. So it could have been much more, but it's increments, right? It's increments. Monica Hay: Yes. Sarah: flying. I'm not super comfortable flying anyway. Like I'm just just it was another thing of overcoming. And so yeah, I was really grateful for that opportunity. Monica Hay: Yes. That's so funny, I love it. So I am curious, a lot of, so what does a beginner curve realistically look like when someone wants to start dictation? Because it took you seven years and now you teach it so that people can do it faster. What is ⁓ a general beginner's curve for somebody who's just starting? Sarah: Yeah, you most likely will not take seven years. There are so many listeners, don't let that be like, ⁓ it's a long learning curve. I've had authors take off within the first day of instruction. They will just get it. And I'm like, how did you do that? That was so not me. But for the majority of authors, I tell them, I'm like, that's fantastic. I'm so glad Anna or Debra, whoever took off with that inside a boot camp or something, I'm so excited for them. Monica Hay: ⁓ nice. Sarah: But for everyone else who's probably more like me, going to take a little more time, going to take training and realistically a couple of months of consistent, diligent practice, I've seen a lot of authors be able to make that shift. Some are working at it more sporadically and so they may be a year or two years into it and they'll come back to me and they'll be like, I need you to tell me just right, just right, get me going again. And so I will work with them on that and then it's just incredible. to see when that shift happens because a lot of times they'll be okay with speaking, like story notes will be coming out and all, but when they write an actual scene, that's when the shift happens and that's when they're like, I can do this and I have now trained my brain because it is really, it goes back to training your brain, developing those new neural pathways to make writing fiction by dictation as natural as typing. Monica Hay: Right. Yes, and that can take a little bit of time. For some people, maybe not, and for some, you said maybe a couple months. I love that. think, I'm also curious, ⁓ what would you say to people who try it and then they think it's terrible and they just want to give up and they're like, I tried it once and I can't do it. Like, what would you tell them? Sarah: I wish I had known I was going to be teaching this because I would have counted the number of times I told myself that over those seven years. My brain just doesn't work that way. Some people are wired for this and some people aren't. It's kind of like how I used to believe that some people could paint gorgeous landscapes and I'm just not one of those. I'm not artistic. And now I love doing fluid art. Like I found an art medium that works for me. And it's like, no, it's you can train yourself to do these things. And for Monica Hay: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Sarah: those moments like you do like me and maybe you get off this podcast, you're like, I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm going to go download a voice record app or use, know, find something that works on my phone and start it and nothing comes out. Your brain just freezes and you're like, ⁓ and then like a few stuttering words maybe start coming out, then you're. Monica Hay: Right. Yes. Sarah: dictation function, it deactivates and you're like, ⁓ no, I did something wrong. And then you try again. And by the time you get to, you know, the end of 10 minutes, 20 minutes, usually it's not very long before you're, pretty convinced that this is not going to work for me. And all you have is this jumble of words. And maybe you did, maybe you went for a while, maybe you went for an hour and it's just a complete mess. And not just, not just a writing mess, but a dictated mess. And you're like, this is a disaster. I was rambling. The transcription was terrible. Like this is awful and I hate it, I hate the sound of my voice. That is so common. Like I hate the sound of my voice and I'm not gonna be able to get past all of these things. And what I want to say to you is it is totally possible. All of those things are overcomeable. You can overcome each of those things with training, with the proper guidance, training and belief that, yeah, I actually can master the skill. Just like when you were typing and it was one finger at a time. Monica Hay: right. Yes. Yep. Yes. Sarah: And it was like, I hate this. I'll never be able to get entire words and sentences down. It's just, it's that same process. Maybe it was holding a pencil. I know when I was young, like even that act of like, how do I hold a pencil? And going through that learning process, dictating, getting your words, getting your mind in your mouth connected takes a bit of a process. Getting that imagination to flow out of your mouth. But once it does, it does become as natural as typing. And I don't think about it anymore. Monica Hay: Yep. Mm-hmm Sarah: When I go into my writing mode and it takes me a little bit to get into my flow, right? Just like it does with typing, with my stories. But once I'm there, I'm there and I'm not hearing my voice. I'm not aware that words are coming out of my mouth. I am just seeing the scene. I'm there with the characters. I'm experiencing all the joys of writing and the angst and all the stuff that we go through with writing. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Sarah: But for the most part, it's just I get into there and I am just loving my characters. I'm loving the scenes. I'm building this story world and whatever I can do, you know, to delight my readers. Like I am in that, in that place with the story whenever I'm, once I get into my, into my flow and into my dictating. But it can absolutely, you can absolutely get there. Even if you've tried dictation and you're like, hated it, not for me. That was me for seven years, try and fail. And I finally got there and I'm so grateful I did. Monica Hay: love it. How many books have you dictated now? Sarah: I've dictated 14 books and 11 of those are published. I have 19 books published and 11 of those I wrote solely by dictation, the first drafts. And I have three more that I'm working on editing, publishing, and I'm of course working on my next book. Monica Hay: 14 books. Yes, I love it. And so I'm also very curious ⁓ what practices help people improve their dictation skills. And this also might come into some of what you teach in your coursework, but maybe give us like a little tiny teaser of what kind of helps. Sarah: Yeah, I finally developed the draft framework, which I'm so grateful for. I I know, isn't that so fun? I was like trying to come up with, because I had this framework, Monica, back in 2023 when I first taught my very, very first bootcamp, which I did everything wrong, but I did have the framework right. authors, like they latched onto it and they were able to dictate. And I was trying to figure out, like, I was revamping my course. How can I make this effortless? Monica Hay: I love it, it's called draft. Sarah: I need a framework, need a one, two, three, four, five steps. And that's what I ended up coming up with. I went back to my first bootcamp and I was like, here's the framework. And it is, it is starting with picking your dictation tool. So finding what works for you, that's the D, devices or dictation tools. So figuring out what works for you because my exact set up, you can duplicate it if you have the tech that I have, but you know, like I have an iPhone, I have a MacBook, but if you have a PC and Android, like everybody's a little bit different. Monica Hay: Nice. Sarah: And so getting that down, that's the first hurdle. Like just focus on that. Don't try to make yourself dictate right away. Like just get your tech worked out. And we just did a bootcamp, like that's all we focused on was tech. And we needed that. We needed a whole three days. Like just working through and making sure everyone had that going. You may just like sit. This could be something you just take right off with. The R is reps. That is your exercises. That is where you are actually practicing this. Monica Hay: Nice. Sarah: you don't start with fiction. That is the biggest key. Don't start with like, I'm gonna practice dictation and I'm gonna try to put it on my next work in progress. Don't do that. So reps is practicing with everything except fiction, basically. I know that is, and then so we get into A, which is approach. There are different ways you can approach dictation. You can watch the screen, not watch the screen, use the record and transcribe method. So it's getting into really solidifying. How am I going to approach dictation as an author so that it is really working with my writing brain, like not working against it, it's working with my writing brain. And then where are we at? We're at to F, that is fiction. This is where most authors start and this is why they fail with dictating their fiction because they get something working on their phone and they go right into, I'm gonna dictate the next scene of my novel. This is the fourth step. Monica Hay: Mm. Yep. Yep. Sarah: It's not the one you wanna start on. So you do the other steps up ahead of time and then you get into practicing fiction and you still take that very slowly. Don't put the pressure on. I'm gonna dictate the next scene. You're gonna work on a throwaway story. You're just going to practice with that. And then T, the last one in the framework is total draft. And that's like, how do you actually now take what you've learned, take everything that you've practiced and write a first draft of a novel. So that's the draft framework. That's what I take authors through now very... Monica Hay: Right? Sarah: to just make it as effortless as possible for them to make that shift. Monica Hay: I love that framework. I the reps like really stands out to me because so often, I mean, you've been in through my bootcamp, so you know what I'm talking about. So many people don't realize like how much practice it actually takes to make for something to happen. like, you know, they'll so many people I work with in the bootcamp I do are just stuck in perfectionism mode a lot of times. And like, you know, they just can't imagine. you know, the idea of like, I'll write a throwaway scene on purpose because like that's a waste of time. Or that's a waste of like, I don't want to waste my time and like not have my, my, my story that I might be writing, you know, end up in a journal, who knows what it is. And so people get very stuck on like outcome instead of just like the reps of building, you know, let's actually build a scale of dictation, right? And how, how have you, talk to your students through that if you've ever come up against that. Like the like, ⁓ the reps, like a throwaway story, like, ⁓ like, I don't want to do that. Sarah: And I understand that because our time is precious and our energy is precious. And it's like, ⁓ I only have an hour a day to write or maybe just 30 minutes a day or 10 minutes a day to write. And I don't wanna spend that practicing this. So what I say, there's a couple of things. One, look at it as if you were in school in college and your professor gave you an assignment. Monica Hay: Yeah. Sarah: And you're like, I'm never gonna publish this. Like, why should I write this and go through that whole process? It's gonna be something that's going to end up in the bin or in the drawer and all. It's your exercise and you're gonna get great at it. Like, I mean, this is practicing that skill. It is learning that skill. And that is definitely how you want to approach it is you are in education mode. Separate that from your writing time. Make that its own dedicated time instead of it being Monica Hay: Mmm, I love that. Sarah: I've only got an hour to write. I don't wanna spend 30 minutes fumbling around trying to get my voice recorder to work on my phone and all. Like I need to get words on the page. I've got deadlines to meet. A lot of authors that I've worked with authors who they've written published up to 150 books. I mean, these are really experienced authors, but they're still like, ⁓ I don't have time to do this because I've gotta get my thousand words, my 5,000 words in a day. So separate that and have its own. Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Sarah: practice time, just as if you were doing night classes, if you're doing an online course, you're doing these extra education things, put that and separate it. And that's, actually just added an app with my course, which I'm so excited about to help authors go through this. And inside there, I created something called the Fictation Playground. And it's under F, once you get to that step, when you get to the F in the draft framework, and I just call it the Playground. And you can just. It's got some writing prompts in there and just treat that just totally separate it from your current work in progress and just treat that as your sandbox to play in while you're training yourself to dictate as you're developing that new skill. Monica Hay: I'm obsessed with this. ⁓ my God, I like, I'm so obsessed with this. I love the way you explained it. I don't think I've ever explained it like that before. And I'm gonna have to steal that and give you credit, just like you talk about in the mess of magic and you give me credit, that's gonna be. Because I often get that feeling of people saying, this is a struggle. I don't wanna waste my time. I have, like, what I have typically told people, and I still think this rings true for a lot of my audience, but. Sarah: So good, it's so fun. Monica Hay: I think a lot of my audience are more newbie writers. I do have some experienced writers, but a lot of people who work with me are people who are overcoming procrastination or a lot of people who are gifted children and are learning how to be bad at something. Like when they're like, ⁓ I want to write my book and this is the first book I've ever written. And I'm like, you don't just come out of the womb being good at writing books. Like that's just not a thing. Sarah: No. If you do, I want to meet you. But I have not met that author yet. I wish I had come out of the womb being able to write stories. Sometimes we think we are, and that's better to like think that you need to get there than to think that you that you are there. Monica Hay: I know, right? So I always tell people, it's... Yes, and I think people are so impatient about wanting to learn the skill as soon as possible. And I always push back on that, but I really like this reframe of seeing it as ⁓ an educational standpoint, because I think it helps with gifted kids as well, because they're all about education and trying to achieve. Sarah: I can drop a joke here that fits in with this so well. This doctor and this author, they went golfing together and it was a brain surgeon. And he tells the author, he's like, I'm thinking about taking off six weeks this year and write a book. And the author goes, really? That's such a coincidence. I was thinking about taking off six weeks this year to learn how to do brain surgery. It takes time. It takes time. It does not just happen. Monica Hay: my God. It does not just happen, no. And I know that that's so frustrating. People are like, I want a skip button. Like where's the shortcut? And I'm like, there really isn't one. Though I think dictation can be its own form of shortcut because it's a different way of telling stories that I think could be more natural for some people, honestly. I work with lot of people who were like theater kids maybe, people who like to talk in the sense of like to share stories. And I think that for those people, dictation is fantastic because they get to speak and use that part of their body, especially, this is gonna sound weird, but people who work a desk job and live at home alone. That sounds weird to me, but you get to talk and actually share your words. You're still writing, but you're using your actual body in a different way. And a lot of people are lonely. Sarah: And it's fan, ⁓ I'm sorry, go ahead. Monica Hay: Go ahead, sorry. Sarah: ⁓ no, I'm sorry. I was just going to jump in there with the performance because what it made me think of is I do have some performing artists and they will start acting out their scene as they are, as they're speaking it, as they're, as they're writing with their voice. So they'll, and even if you don't, even if you're not a performance artist, I will find myself doing that because I'm not into performance. I'm very introverted in that and like I'm just, and there can be introverted actors for sure. But I was just like, I'm not used to using my body. Like you said, you know, to, Monica Hay: Yeah. Sarah: you know, feel the scene and all. So it does, it adds to that aspect of your writing. Monica Hay: And it might even help you imagine how the scene could unfold if humans were actually in the scene, right? Because for so many of us, we're like stuck in our heads. But if you're acting it, it's different. It feels different, right? And it helps you understand what the characters are going through more. That's so interesting. Yeah, that's so interesting. ⁓ I'm curious. So you mentioned, was it dragon something? I assume that there are very different tools these days. Sarah: and work through some logistics, just some practical things. Dragon dictation, yeah. Monica Hay: ⁓ What are the tools? What tools do you use? Like what does your setup look like for dictation? Sarah: The good news, because I did drop Dragon at the beginning, we are not there now, y'all. We are not restricted to spending $700 and buying a box of software off the shelf and having to upload it. We don't even have CD-ROMs anymore. We don't even have drivers on our computers to do that anymore. So Dragon is still around. You can still purchase it as a software, download it, not for MacBook so much that was bought out by Microsoft, but a lot of authors still use Dragon. Monica Hay: Ha Sarah: and I'm not knocking Dragon, it's still a great software. Some authors are still using that path, they've used it for a lot of years. It has a really steep learning curve and for authors, especially fiction authors, that just adds another layer to it. So that's why I say, don't start with Dragon, one, the price, two, you just don't need it anymore. You don't need it anymore. The most simple way, like are you all ready? Are you ready for this? The most simple way to dictate your fiction is to use your Monica Hay: Mmm. Right. Sarah: built-in speech to text or dictate on your phone or your computer. It's already there. It's an accessibility feature. We get to use it for text messages. So many people are used to doing that with text messages now, right? Like they're just, you know, just talk it and audio recordings, like that's one thing, but you can just dictate your text message using that built-in on your phone. You can use that device, that same function to dictate your fiction. Monica Hay: Yep. love it. Sarah: And that's currently what I'm doing. Actually, I've always dictated on my phone. I did use a record app and that gets a little bit more techie. You've got a couple of extra steps, but still totally doable. That's how I dictated nine books. But my current method is just dictating using my built-in dictation function on my iPhone. Monica Hay: love it. And do you dictate directly to Scrivener? I think I've seen that you mentioned Scrivener before. Sarah: I do, I dictate directly into Scrivener, which unfortunately that's only available for iPhone, so it's only an iOS app, not Android. But if you have an Android, you can download Microsoft Word, you can put Google Docs on your phone, you can put whatever your current writing software, if they have an app for it, you can put that on your phone, open up wherever you're at in your current work in progress, after you've trained yourself to do dictation, like you're not gonna start here, but you're going to once you are a full-time. Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Yes. Sarah: Fictator, actually, as I like to call it. So I'll go ahead and drop my term that I came up with. I like to, instead of saying we're dictators, we are fictators. So fictation is the act of dictating your fiction. So once you're a full-fledged fictator and you are fictating all of your words, you can go directly into your writing software, whether it's Scrivener on iOS or on Google Docs or your Microsoft Word and activate the dictation function and speak. Monica Hay: Yes. Sarah: directly into that scene wherever you left off on. just wherever that blinking cursor is on your phone or your computer, you can dictate there. You can dictate directly into your writing software. Monica Hay: Mmm. Love it. I love that. love, and I mean, yeah, these features have gotten incredible. Like these different features over the last, I guess, 2011. ⁓ my God, how long ago was that? Sarah: The only option in 2011 that was 15 years ago, I mean, I started in 2009 with like my full-time pursuit of I'm going to be a writer. Like God brought that back in my life. Like this is what you do with your life. I'm like, let's go. I'm so excited. Cause I, like I said, been writing my whole life. And so I was like, yes, this is, I get to do this as a career. Like this is what I'm going to do. And that was 2009. And like I said, probably around 2011 is when I started hearing authors, cause I was just consuming everything, everything about writing. Monica Hay: ⁓ my God. Yeah. Let's go! Yeah. Yep. Sarah: and the business and all of it. And that's about the time I heard about dictation. And I thought, you if I want to build a sustainable fiction writing career, I need to learn to dictate. Like I want this to be long-term and to do that, I feel like I need to write faster, which you know, is or is not, depends on your goals with being a writer, but that was one of mine. And then it was taking care of my health. So when I heard about authors taking long walks out and coming back and they're a chapter written, you know, going out and a chapter back, I was like, that sounds like true sustainability. Monica Hay: Mmm. Sarah: for a fiction writing career. So yes, that was back in 2011. Dragon was our only option unless you wanted to get a voice recorder, which actually you needed a voice recorder anyway with Dragon. So you could get a digital voice recorder. You were to record your words, go upload them to Dragon. It would transcribe it all of them. And then there's like this whole learning curve with, you know, getting it to, you know, do it correctly. And then before that though, Kevin J. Anderson was probably one of the first authors that I heard about who was dictating and he's very prolific author. Monica Hay: Yep. Mmm. Sarah: and he's the one who would take a walk out, come back and dictate. And what he did at that time, very successful writer, is he would send his recordings to a human transcriptionist who would transcribe the words. And you're looking at running like $1,000, $2,000 per novel. And for most fiction authors, for most of us, that's not sustainable, but that's what he did before Dragon was a thing. And then Dragon came out, became very accessible for most fiction authors, still $700, but for... Monica Hay: Mmm. Mm, yep. Yep. No. Got it. Sarah: For authors who were able to invest in that, they were able to get the Dragon software. And that's when it really exploded, think, for, especially we had the indie authors and Kindles were at, eBooks were a thing and all of this. So it all kind of happened there with this technology. And actually Dragon's been out longer than this. I know one author, they've been using Dragon for like 30 years. So it has been around a long time, but it really became popular, I think, with the eBook movement and just became so much more viable. Monica Hay: Mmm. Mmm. Yep. Sarah: for you to pursue a career as an author. So we had Dragon Dictation and that was the only option for the longest time, but we have so, so many more options now. Monica Hay: I love it, I love it. ⁓ I am curious, So for those want to ⁓ learn about dictation ⁓ and would like to learn more about how teach it, where people find you? Please plug ⁓ yourself. I, like full transparency guys, I'm always shoving Sarah's work down throats anytime people are like. I wanna learn how to dictate or like write with my voice or I can't get myself to sit down and write. I'm like, I have something for you. Talk to Sarah. Sarah: You're amazing Monica. It's like, like, ⁓ that just does my heart. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for being like such a, such a fan, such an advocate for that. But yes, authors, y'all can find me at fictioncourses.com. If you go to fictioncourses.com forward slash dictation, I've got a couple of free resources on there. You can get a dictation, like a quick start guide. And for those who are on iPhone and you wanna work with Scrivener and you're using Scrivener for your primary writing software, I have a free Dictation plus Scrivener Power Combo. So I go through the details, the nitty gritty of how I use Dictation with Scrivener inside the iOS app. and inside my computer and getting them to sync at all. Like there's some nuances very specific to Scrivener users. So I wanted to have that resource available for my students. So you can go get those for free over at fictioncourses.com forward slash dictation. And then for my course, I have a special, special discount for those of you at No Mess No Magic listeners, followers of Monica. Monica Hay: Love it. Sarah: So we have a coupon code, you can get that in the show notes, it may go out in the email with Monica, but get that in the show notes because it's really long, it's kind of a convoluted, but I wanted to build the coupon code inside there so that it is auto applied and that is $200 off my full Fictation digital course and the app. So you'll get the app and the course $200 off, that'll make it like 297. So total, it's regular price, 497. So I wanna give you guys. Monica Hay: Yes. Wow. Sarah: coupon for the No Mess No Magic listeners because Monica is amazing and you guys are in amazing hands. And if dictation is the path you want to take to get those first drafts written, then you can go get started with the draft framework inside of my Fictation Digital course. Monica Hay: I love it. I love it. Who wouldn't want to dictate? I feel like so many people, you get to go on a walk and write. You get to be cleaning and write. There's just so many benefits. I think it's the future for lot of people because a lot of people are sick of staring at, like sitting down and staring at a screen. They just want to be doing something else with their lives all the time. I think we have fatigue from that. And there's just so many things you can do when you dictate. There's just so much opens for you. Sarah: Yeah, I am currently the first thing I ever dictated. did it while washing the dishes. And now I am I am loving it. We're out. We're moved out on our five acres and I am loving taking walks in the mornings, walking around the pond, enjoying nature and getting, you know, a thousand words written, fifteen hundred words and just enjoying. Yeah. Giving giving our bodies a break. I think that's we didn't talk about burnout, but I think that's causing a lot of burnout for authors is that physical fatigue. Monica Hay: Yes! Yes! Sarah: at the keyboard, looking at the screen and dictation gets you out of that, gets you outside. Monica Hay: Right. Yep. Yeah, it just happened to the other day where I was like, I want to write, but like my, had been on the screen, I think for six or seven hours because I had some meetings and work and my eyes were just like, you cannot look at a screen. You need to stop. I was like, okay, I'm going to go listen to a book and close my eyes in bed. Sarah: Exactly. And that's how I love to dictate to is just lying in bed. I have written. That's actually probably the fastest way I write because I think you're kind of getting in that really imaginative space. You like you're telling yourself a story before going to bed. And but even during the day, like just laying down for a nap and just letting letting some words flow. Monica Hay: Yes, I love being in bed. Mmm. Yep. I love that. So where can people find you? We're talk about what? Sarah: Monica, we need to talk about... Yeah, I was going to say we need we need we need to talk about working, working on getting you into dictation. Like we could we could have a conversation or maybe a few conversations or maybe some boxers at all and and work on this. I'd love to talk to you about that. Monica Hay: I ⁓ am willing to do it. I just have to actually stop overworking and actually like work on my own process. I'm sure you get it because you are a business owner and so, you know, you're like always serving other people. Yeah, you get it. Sarah: I do, I do. train yourself to do a new skill. Mm-hmm, I do. Monica Hay: Yes, yes, yes. So where can people find you, Sarah? Other than like, you have an Instagram? I forget. You also have a podcast. Sarah: on Facebook, so yeah. I do, I do the Confident Fiction Author podcast. Give it a listen. That's where I work on really developing an author lifestyle. So one that is sustainable and not being overwhelmed, overworked, not that I don't fall into those things, but really working on the whole life, the whole life of being a Confident Fiction Author. So that's the Confident Fiction Author podcast available on all major platforms. Monica Hay: Love it. Sarah: I am on Facebook and Instagram, not super active, but you can get my podcast episodes on there. And you can also, if you're not like a big podcast listener, but you're listening to No Mess No Magic, but that may be just because of Monica, like this is the only podcast you listen to. But if you are more like wanting to read it blog style, you can go to my sub stack, fictioncourses.substack.com, I think is how it's listed out. And you can get the Confident Fiction Author podcast, like blog style transcripts of the podcast on there. Monica Hay: ⁓ nice, I love that. Why don't I do that? Sarah: That was so good. I don't do it, my assistant does it. Monica Hay: So I should have my husband do it, got it, sorry John. ⁓ I've been joking this whole time because John is my on-call tech IT support, like literally it's the best. Anyway, thank you so much Sarah, this has been wonderful. And all of you have to go check Sarah out, because I will just never shut up about your work. So thank you for coming, Sarah. Sarah: There you go, yeah. Honestly. Thank you, Monica, for having me. as we say in Choctaw, Yakoke, that's thank you in Choctaw. And we don't have a word for goodbye. say, chipi, s'alá, ch'ake. I will see you again soon. Monica Hay: I love that.