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SPOTLIGHT Robert Joseph Greene · Sass N Sips

0:09
SPEAKER_01: Hi, and welcome to this episode of Assassin's Tips Spotlight.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Today we do, as always, have another special guest with us.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Lisa.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: And today I'm sipping on some doctored up uh tea lemonade.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: It's got it's got doctor in it.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Um surprise.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Surprise.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm Agnes, and I'm mostly sipping on water with some seltzer.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Um I have some errands to run after this, so I can't be under the influence.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, all right.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Today.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: And today our special guest is well, according to Wikipedia, a book is probably true.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: We have Canada's only male romantic writer, and he is the author of the icon classics of the world one and two, which is also written with we have Robert Joseph Green with us.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
1:10
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
1:11
SPEAKER_04: Hello, everybody.
1:13
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes.
1:14
SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm Robert Joseph Green.
1:16
SPEAKER_04: I'm currently in Waikiki, Honolulu, Hawaii.
1:21
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, visiting my cousin, but I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to talk to you.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: And we we get to enjoy the view also.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Because you are sitting in front of a really nice window.
1:38
unknown: Yes.
1:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's a gorgeous place.
1:40
SPEAKER_04: I love it.
1:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting at like below zero air temp right now.
1:49
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna be there in at the end of the month, so I'll be okay.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Fine.
1:53
SPEAKER_04: Good.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm gonna jump right in.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Um because you reached out to us and you had some bullet points and some interesting things about you.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: And it was about how two poops and Russia.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna let our listeners listen to the rest of this episode.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm gonna tease them a little bit.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: So The Blue Door.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Did I get the name of that title right?
2:23
SPEAKER_03: Correct.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: That is correct.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: And that is the that's what's that's part of the series.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: The icon classics of the icon series.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's in it.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: And was that the first book of the series?
2:35
SPEAKER_02: Second book, second book.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Second book, but that was the book that had Russia up at arms.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: And you can give tell us your story, because I know what I've read, but I want to hear your story.
2:44
SPEAKER_04: It's funny because I used to play this game with people saying, um, instead of saying two truths and a lie, I'm like, are these all truths or are all lies?
2:53
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I have three Wikipedia pages.
2:55
SPEAKER_04: The Popes know my name, they don't like me, but they know my name.
2:59
SPEAKER_04: And there's an arrest warrant for me in Russia.
3:02
SPEAKER_04: Are those all truths or are those all lies?
3:04
SPEAKER_04: But they're all truths.
3:05
SPEAKER_04: So I I really uh enjoy that.
3:08
SPEAKER_04: So what happened, and it really hit us by surprise because my books are not published in Russian.
3:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, and the background story is as I travel through life and I have encounters with people, um, I get story ideas just based on conversations.
3:29
SPEAKER_04: And I was in Florida and I met a group of Russian guys that um were gay.
3:36
SPEAKER_04: Uh and in the the conversation, they were working at Disney.
3:41
SPEAKER_04: Uh Disney um takes a lot of uh foreign students uh for their you know exhibits and stuff like that.
3:48
SPEAKER_04: And um in the conversation, we were talking about World War II and how Nazis would distinguish gay prisoners with the pink triangle.
3:58
SPEAKER_04: So pink is synonymous with gay, and it didn't register with them.
4:02
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Is pink not synonymous with gay in Russia?
4:05
SPEAKER_04: And they said, no.
4:06
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, what color is?
4:08
SPEAKER_04: And they said, a certain light powdery blue is synonymous with being gay.
4:15
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, what's the story behind that?
4:17
SPEAKER_04: And they didn't know, so I was like, okay, I will make a story, and that's how the blue door came about.
4:23
SPEAKER_04: And the story is about the czar who wanted to be popular with his people, saying, We're gonna have a special arrow day, and um, on that day, my sons will shoot an arrow into the door to the to anyone that they want to marry, you know.
4:39
SPEAKER_04: So it wasn't nobility, it wasn't pressure, it's like, you know, whoever you so all of Russia knew that they would their daughters would have um opportunities, but he wasn't really specific about daughters or sons.
4:52
SPEAKER_04: So one of the sons decided to choose a man because he fell in love with a man.
4:57
SPEAKER_04: And um, it's a simple love story with a moral lesson, um, because the lesson from the the the three sons was that hey, um father, you did say any person, you didn't say daughters, the father didn't care.
5:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh the the the czar threw his son in the gulag in Siberia.
5:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, and when the father died, uh the brother became czar, and he got his brother out from the gulag, and they rode out again, and they shot not one arrow, but three into the door to welcome uh his you know beloved into the family.
5:36
SPEAKER_04: And that's a beautiful, simple love story.
5:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, at the time, and timing is everything.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: Uh Russia was trying to pass a Nat's a national anti-gay propaganda law, and they were searching really, you know, uh for a reason.
5:53
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, they use my story as one of the reasons saying, hey, he's trying to influence your children by writing these fairy tales to make peep kids gay.
6:06
SPEAKER_04: So all of a sudden, I was getting all this hate mail on my author's uh Facebook page, um, but it was in Russian.
6:14
SPEAKER_04: So we had to use Google Translate, and it's like, die, we hate you, you know, you're a pedophile.
6:19
SPEAKER_04: I mean, all this awful stuff.
6:22
SPEAKER_04: Um, but the interesting part about this, and there's a US tie-in to this, um, is that um I was also getting messages saying, hey, I live in the Ural Mountains.
6:33
SPEAKER_04: If my parents find out I'm gay, they'll kill me.
6:36
SPEAKER_04: Please help.
6:38
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, Icon Empire Press, uh, which is the publisher and myself, we didn't know what to do.
6:44
SPEAKER_04: So we went to the the here, it's called the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, uh, the RCMP, and said, Look, these kids are in trouble.
6:53
SPEAKER_04: What do we do?
6:53
SPEAKER_04: They said, you know, try the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
6:57
SPEAKER_04: Um, so we went to the ministry and they said, we don't have a program, but we heard the Americans have a program to help gay youth in Russia.
7:06
SPEAKER_04: So they arranged for a meeting with me and the uh U.S.
7:11
SPEAKER_04: consulate, and I sat down with two department of def uh department of oh, what's um they the US Department's called uh Department of State, sorry.
7:23
SPEAKER_04: The US Department of State, and uh they said, we need for you to turn over your access to your Facebook page to us.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what year was this?
7:34
SPEAKER_04: Uh 2012, I believe.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:37
SPEAKER_04: Um so you know, for the purposes of helping these kids, I I said, okay, you have access.
7:47
SPEAKER_04: And um ironically, uh, and I can't link the two, but I think I understand what they were doing.
7:53
SPEAKER_04: Uh, because there was a big article maybe eight months later about the US uh embassy being busted for using student exchanges uh to get gay kids out of Russia.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: So I think they were reaching out to these kids, telling them to sign up for the student exchange program, fully funded, and then they got out of the country.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
8:17
SPEAKER_04: So um, so that that's the background story to the Blue Door.
8:22
SPEAKER_04: And then um what happened was the kids that I met in Florida, they emailed me saying, hey, you know, your big news right now.
8:31
SPEAKER_04: We want to could we translate it into Russian and give it to our activists?
8:35
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, sure.
8:36
SPEAKER_04: So they formed this group called the Blue Door Group.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: It's on Facebook.
8:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's a Russian group that pro, you know, it's a it's a they lobby for gay rights.
8:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and one of the the activists read my simple love story in front of the children's library and got arrested.
8:53
SPEAKER_04: So Russia, not understanding the scenario, said, you know, Robert Joseph Green's an agitator.
9:00
SPEAKER_04: He's causing trouble in Russia.
9:01
SPEAKER_04: We have to issue an arrest warrant.
9:03
SPEAKER_04: And then they kicked it, they gave it to Interpol, um, but it didn't meet the qualifications for Interpol to accept it, but it alerted the government of Canada to contact me saying, Look, don't ever go to Russia, there's an arrest warrant for you.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, I was like, it wasn't on the top 10 of my vacation list.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:24
SPEAKER_04: So volley.
9:26
unknown: Yeah.
9:27
SPEAKER_04: So I mean, the irony is, you know, if you asked me when I was writing, beginning to write, um, you know, would it lead to an arrest?
9:36
SPEAKER_04: Would it lead to protest?
9:38
SPEAKER_04: You know, I would have, you know, laughed you out of the room.
9:42
SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, these are simple love stories.
9:45
SPEAKER_04: There's no sex in them.
9:46
SPEAKER_04: There's they they have moral lessons.
9:49
SPEAKER_04: And uh they just the it just blew up, you know, and that was crazy.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of it's funny you say that because when you say it's it love stories, no sex.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, back at the farm, books like 50 Shades is never mind, the writing was horrible.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: It's it was lauded around the whole world as like you have to read this.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: It was crap.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: I was offended as a reader, but that's besides the point.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Um because unfortunately, it's it's cis romance, love, sex, no matter how obscene it is.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: Which is a good segue into the German situation that I had, um you know, because what happened?
10:37
SPEAKER_04: I wrote the Forbidden Scrolls, and it's based on Lucien of Samosada's uh great debate.
10:44
SPEAKER_04: It's called Erote's.
10:46
SPEAKER_04: So 2400 years ago, there was an oritator named Erotes, and he said, Well, I want a great debate.
10:52
SPEAKER_04: And the question was whose love is better for a man?
10:56
SPEAKER_04: The love of a man or the love of a woman?
10:58
SPEAKER_04: And that was the debate.
11:00
SPEAKER_04: And what I didn't know was uh the Catholic Church has a uh list called the index, and it's the list of forbidden reading.
11:10
SPEAKER_04: And so Catholics are not allowed to read uh any of the books that are on the forbidden on the index.
11:17
SPEAKER_04: And so I wrote a love story about a scribe.
11:22
SPEAKER_04: Now, normally scribes are illiterate, right?
11:25
SPEAKER_04: Um they just transpose whatever they see, but this scribe could read, and he was trying you know, he was you know transposing a rotes by Lucina Samosada, and he was flustered, and you know, he met with the the Duke or whatever, um, to saying, you know, this is forbidden reading, and the Duke says, read it to me, and so he did, and they fell in love in the process, and that's my fictional love story to it.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: So the book, like I said, my books are in eight languages, and uh one of the languages is German.
11:58
SPEAKER_04: And the publishing house got a notice from the nuncio.
12:04
SPEAKER_04: So a nuncio is actually the embassy of the Vatican.
12:08
SPEAKER_04: So countries have embassies, but religious entities have a thing called a nuncio.
12:14
SPEAKER_04: That's their embassy.
12:15
SPEAKER_04: And they said, do not publish this.
12:18
SPEAKER_04: Um it has never, you know, the the translation of a roti has never been translated into German.
12:26
SPEAKER_04: And of course, my publisher's like, we're publishing it, you know.
12:31
SPEAKER_04: Um what we didn't know is Velbuilt, which is almost like the Amazon of Europe, is the largest book distributor in Europe.
12:40
SPEAKER_04: And how the book industry is set up is that it's basically you publishing houses and distributors buy book on consignment, meaning they're they're like, okay, we can only, you know, we we can say we'll sell 50 books if we need more, we'll order another 50, right?
13:00
SPEAKER_04: So it's consignment.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: What Velville did was take a thousand books, um, and that's a huge undertaking for a small publishing house, and then turn around saying we're returning all thousand books because it's gay, we're owned by the the Roman Catholic Church, um, and we don't condone you know gay love.
13:25
SPEAKER_04: The problem is that they were selling 50 shades of gray.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: They were distributing, selling soft core porn love stories that were heterosexual.
13:34
SPEAKER_04: And Germans hate hypocrisy, absolutely hate hypocrisy.
13:38
SPEAKER_04: And so this went on and huge protests.
13:42
SPEAKER_04: Now, I have to admit, this worked in my favor because then everyone in Germany ran and bought my books.
13:48
SPEAKER_04: Like Russia, I don't have any books, but in Germany, you know, I was making money hand over fist.
13:54
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then the funny thing is uh German news stories and publishers, they were saying, okay, we want to interview you, but the time difference, you know, the interviews were always 2 a.m.
14:04
SPEAKER_04: in the morning.
14:08
SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, so after doing four or five of them at 2 a.m.
14:10
SPEAKER_04: in the morning, I'm like, ugh, you know, um, and the other thing is Germans are very literal.
14:16
SPEAKER_04: And so they would have a copy of my book, but it would be the German version, and they're like, here on page 37, what did you mean?
14:24
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, page 37 in the German book isn't the same page.
14:28
SPEAKER_04: I need context.
14:29
SPEAKER_04: What are you talking about?
14:31
SPEAKER_04: So it was it was a real learning curve for both uh Icon and myself because you know, in dealing on an international scale, um, you really have to say, you know, prep them saying, you know, don't reference a page, reference the situation so that I can explain things, you know.
14:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, the beauty of that was the German government actually stepped in secretly and bought up all the copies of the book and distributed them to libraries across Germany.
14:59
SPEAKER_04: So they saved Icon from failure because it was just a huge protest, you know, um, and a big embarrassment to Velbelt, and the Vatican decided we have to sell off this publishing house because it's tarnished our image.
15:14
SPEAKER_04: So they sold it off.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: But they end up tarnishing their own like you cause a tarnishment.
15:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they made their own bed and they had to lay in it, and it was just causing them a lot of problems.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: So this this whole situation is like the guy with the bike and the stick and the spokes.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like yes, yes, exactly.
15:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:35
SPEAKER_04: That meme, I love that meme.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:37
SPEAKER_04: Um like, damn it.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: This damn stick.
15:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it, you know, but the irony is when when I started out writing, I would have never imagined all of this.
15:49
SPEAKER_04: I was just a simple writer with simple stories.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: How could I have such a strong impact?
15:55
SPEAKER_04: But it does give you that proof that the pen is mightier than the sword.
15:59
SPEAKER_04: You know, that you you can influence people and scare people, but also delight people.
16:05
SPEAKER_04: And that's you know, that's the direction I went.
16:07
SPEAKER_04: I wanted to hear stories of two people reading my book and falling in love with each other and living happily ever after, not someone being arrested and going to prison.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of but it but it makes sense in the same time because if the pen wasn't so mighty, people wouldn't be rushing to ban books to get them off of the shelves or to tell you what you can and cannot read.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: What you can't say, what you can't do.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Read this.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Don't listen to them.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Listen to me.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: If a story about two men falling in love is gonna make people gay, then why can't you just counteract that with like a story about a man and a woman falling in love?
16:45
SPEAKER_01: If that if that's how it works, right?
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, now you're in love with a man.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Quick, read this.
16:53
SPEAKER_04: But then I could, you know, add on top of that, you know, heterosexual couples produce gay kids, you know.
17:01
SPEAKER_04: So I mean, maybe you should have kids then.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: Exactly, you know, not having children then.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, the whole agenda, you know, like I I I hate the term so much when people are like they see something that is not their life or whatever, and it's like, stop pushing your agenda.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: They're always pushing the agenda.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: So, like my daughter is funny because when if like my husband and I give each other a kiss or whatever, she'll be like, Stop pushing your heterosexual agenda on me.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, we're sorry, we're sorry.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: We won't touch each other, we won't hold hands, like we don't want to push our agenda on, you know.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And and it just, you know, it sounds so ridiculous when you say it about a man and a woman.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: That's how it sounds to other people who are just not like so scared of people who are different.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just people just loving each other.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: They're like get over it.
18:00
SPEAKER_04: Get over it.
18:01
SPEAKER_04: Right, it has nothing to do with you, you know, exactly, and that's that's you know why they say love is love, you know.
18:08
SPEAKER_04: Um I did a workshop uh on how to teach love and what is love.
18:15
SPEAKER_04: And it, you know, I'm a gay writer, but the the the whole audience, I would say 80% of the audience were heterosexuals because the story of love is a universal teaching, you know, it's not gay love or straight love or the the the core elements and the foundations of love are you know very important but universally applied, you know.
18:43
SPEAKER_04: And um, I always stress that to people, you know, although I'm a gay romantic writer, the elements of the lessons that I'm teaching are universal, you know.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
18:56
SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, that that that brings value to you know people uh when they read my stories, which is ironic.
19:04
SPEAKER_04: When we get the sales reports, 30% of uh our purchases are by women.
19:10
SPEAKER_04: And we didn't know if women were buying them to give us gifts to friends or buying them and actually reading them.
19:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, but you know, talking about this heated rivalry, there's a huge women component of subscribers that are watching this, you know?
19:24
SPEAKER_04: So I think there is this interest in, you know, gay romance.
19:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, even though you're not in that romance, you still have this intrigue and you still have the dynamics of you know, problems and relationships that everyone knows about it.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Everyone goes through it.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Everyone goes through all the and then and gin generally speaking, I think women are a little bit more I can't get the words, you have to forgive me.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: I haven't slept as if my words are not coming out.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Women are generally more open to whatever receptive.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: That's the word I'm looking for.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: It's more receptive towards the love is love and men loving men, women loving women.
20:08
SPEAKER_04: I also think they like the drama dynamics the drama forbidden love and you know, all that sort of stuff.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I was trying to make it a little bit more deeper than that, but yes, the drama.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: You're right, it's just a drama.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: There might also be less of a stigma, right?
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Like imagine if you are from a conservative community, and a woman watching a show about two men, while it may be not looked upon well, it will still probably be better received than if a man is watching a story about two men.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: And it's a guess, right?
20:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a guess on my part.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: But I just feel like based on things that I've heard from people who are like, you know, pig headed and closed-minded, it's just my guess.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like, you know, well, yeah, I mean, a good story is a good story.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Good story, regardless.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't really matter who the players are.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: Well, right.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: I went to a very interesting workshop, and I'll share this with you.
21:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was from The Radical Fairies, and it was in California, and the workshop was entitled Homophobia Doesn't Exist.
21:28
SPEAKER_04: You know, and I was like, wow, I gotta, you know, hear this.
21:32
SPEAKER_04: And what they're what they were trying to say was it's a subset of um misogyny that uh and it was very it was very interesting because what they said was the definitions about women have a more natural inclination.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: The definition of men do not.
21:53
SPEAKER_04: So they have to define what is a man, you know, and it's a very narrow approach.
21:59
SPEAKER_04: So because The foundations of definition of what is a man isn't established, it has to be controlled.
22:06
SPEAKER_04: And that's where homophobia comes in, you know.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, where it's not falling in to what is the narrow definition that a lot of conservatives want to define men as, but men are human, men cry, men have moments of weakness, men, you know, and you not allowing them to have that range of emotions does more damage to them, gay or straight, um, you know, than any gay person can do to them.
22:36
SPEAKER_04: Because psychologically, you have to allow people to be human.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: You could ask any woman that's been abused, sexually assaulted, talked down to by a man, it's probably because he wasn't allowed to feel his feelings.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: Right.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: With like, and back to the whole misogyny part.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Who gives a who gives a fuck if a woman is being abused by a man being a man?
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Suck it up, cupcake.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: That's I never even thought of it.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: No, that was you really hit on a very um tangible statement, which is years ago, it was deemed acceptable to beat a woman, you know?
23:17
SPEAKER_04: And that's where we got the the term rule of thumb.
23:21
SPEAKER_04: You know, remember?
23:22
SPEAKER_04: You could only beat a woman with something at the size of the rule of a thumb.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: You know, but humanity has evolved, you know, and the pl and women are now equals in intelligence and physics and everything that we can imagine.
23:38
SPEAKER_04: We're trying to do harmony for humanity, you know, and what we're seeing is is we're seeing a push away from that, you know, and you you hear some scary politicians say a woman should be in the kitchen.
23:52
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, no, a woman can go anywhere she damn well pleases, you know?
23:56
SPEAKER_04: And even though it the facts are in front of them that, you know, women and gay men and everyone have achieved these in African Americans and in any sort of thing, have achieved all of the equality and the successes that they are.
24:13
SPEAKER_04: You still have these narrow-minded people saying, nope, they're not capable of doing that.
24:18
SPEAKER_04: And that's not true.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: And you know what the funny thing is, I don't think they actually believe that we're not.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think it's that they honestly believe that we're not capable.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: I think they deep down they know that we are and then they're and to see their ability.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: So like we've got to push them down.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, we've been saying this for decades at EI, we've got to push them down so we can maintain the status quo of bullshit.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: But those are the same people that when they have an issue, it's like they go to their mom for help or their wife for help, and it's like, come on.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't smart enough to step out of the kitchen, but now that you have a problem, I can fix I can clean up your mess.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, come on.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: So years ago, um, I used to work in Chelsea in Manhattan, which is a predominantly gay neighborhood.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: You used to live in New York when you were younger, right?
25:15
SPEAKER_00: You were okay.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: So I loved it.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, listen, I I worked all over Manhattan, but the West Village was like my f it it's a playground.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's so the people are great, the activities are fun, like I you know, but it would be funny when to me, funny, because men would come in and hit on my male co-workers, they wouldn't hit on me, and it was for me, it was like refreshing, right?
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like right, Oli.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: And they would get uncomfortable.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what's the problem?
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, I don't want to be hit on.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, neither do I.
25:54
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't stop you, right?
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm a woman, so it's allowed because you're a man and I'm a woman.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: But when it's a man hitting on another man, and all of a sudden now you feel what we feel, you don't like it.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, no, no, that's not it.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is it.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: And I and I love it for you to acknowledge that, you know.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I used to love to like, you know, be the instigator and be like, no, push it, push it, go ahead.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And then they did it.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Because they're like, no, no, no, but I just don't want to be hit on.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I just don't want to be me.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I have a funny segue.
26:31
SPEAKER_04: I have a funny segue to to your um story there.
26:36
SPEAKER_04: Um, when I lived in Toronto, um, I had all these girlfriends who love going to gay nightclubs, you know, because no one's hitting on them.
26:43
SPEAKER_04: They could be free, you know.
26:44
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
26:45
SPEAKER_04: And my one friend, she was sort of drunk, you know, we're all dancing.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: She goes, I feel so free and so proud.
26:51
SPEAKER_04: She was loving it.
26:53
SPEAKER_04: And she goes, she's like, look.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: And she took off her top and her, you know, bra.
26:58
SPEAKER_04: And she's dancing, and she's like, No one cares.
27:05
SPEAKER_04: And they, you know, they would dance, look, and look away, but no one cared, you know.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: No one cared, right?
27:11
SPEAKER_00: She's just so happy about that.
27:13
SPEAKER_04: And we always remind her of that story, you know.
27:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, I love that.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like that that someone has a Facebook video reel, whatever, and they joke that like someone says, Oh, you only dress for men.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: She's like, Of course I do, because if I dress for women, I wouldn't wear anything at all.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Because we don't care.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: It's the freedom.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: Put clothes on to keep you mofos away, but that's okay.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of my friends was um like a drag queen, and he would take me and he would put wig on me, he would do my makeup, my husband would come along too.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, and we would go to all the clubs and and and we would just have such a good time because you I mean, you know, my husband was there sometimes, he wasn't there, but like he, you know, whatever.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: But like I never felt unsafe.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And that is something that many women cannot say when they're not in a gay bar or in a drag club or you know, and yeah, you know, and it's important for you to feel safe.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: And I could flip that story.
28:18
SPEAKER_04: I had a a straight heterosexual male friend who I'm very, very close to to this very day, and uh he came up to Canada because his wife was uh getting her master's degree, so he got a visa to accompany his wife, and she divorced him.
28:35
SPEAKER_04: She was like, I could do better.
28:36
SPEAKER_04: And he was devastated, he was an introvert, not an outgoing guy.
28:40
SPEAKER_04: And um, so I was like, oh, you know, let's go, let's go to a club, a straight club.
28:46
SPEAKER_04: I've never been to a straight club.
28:47
SPEAKER_04: I was like, let's go to a straight club.
28:48
SPEAKER_04: And I remember going with him, and I remember the tension between the males and the females, you know, because there's there was just a different agenda you felt from the men and a different agenda that you felt from the women.
29:02
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, to break the ice to help him talk, I would say, hey, I'm the gay guy.
29:07
SPEAKER_04: And just to see the women diffuse them, oh, he's safe, you know, he's gay.
29:12
SPEAKER_04: I remember being at a bus stop, and this woman's, you know, walked away from me thinking I was straight.
29:16
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, oh, don't worry, I'm gay.
29:18
SPEAKER_04: And she's like, oh, okay.
29:19
SPEAKER_04: And she told me, you know, you never know these things.
29:21
SPEAKER_04: And that's such a sad environment to be in.
29:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, that you had to assess trust in someone that you're supposed to love, you know, and it breaks my heart when I see that.
29:32
SPEAKER_04: And I do.
29:33
SPEAKER_04: Every time I feel that a woman feels, you know, unsafe or uncomfortable, I do tell them that I'm gay so that they can, you know, at least feel uh an element of safety in my presence, you know.
29:48
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I've made a lot of friends that way.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: I have, and then I have actually been really cool and comfortable with men.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, he's so cool, you know, and just joke around.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And then I realized, oh, wait, you're not gay?
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Because like, fuck, first of all, I think you're lying to yourself, but whatever.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you're not.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and then I and then I have to tone it, I gotta tone it back because I'm like, so your jokes, yeah, I gotta reassess every conversation we've ever had.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I still think you're lying to yourself, but now I have to re I have to talk to you differently, I have to pull back, and I gotta because you're no longer that safe person for me.
30:30
SPEAKER_04: Right, right, right.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: Which is sad.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: I I you know, I wish there was just a more uh better sort of cohesion between men and women instead of having that tension.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's not raising it's oh go ahead.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: No, go ahead.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's I was just gonna say we we know that it's okay, I got it.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say is that we know that it's not all we know that the problem is is that we don't know which men they're not wearing a sign that says not me.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: So as women, we learn at a very, very early age to be uh very aware of our surroundings and to protect ourselves because men are our biggest threat.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: And even the ones that are nice are not the same thing.
31:26
SPEAKER_04: Let me correct heterosexual men are your biggest threat.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: We're allies, gays are usually allies.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if if I see you walking down the street, I don't know which of those are.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: But usually and many times the men who this doesn't apply to, right, who are safe will understand because they already know that we are walking with that fear, and they're one, they're not offended by our fear because you know, imagine the audacity to be offended by someone scared because they they don't know you, but but also like many of them will do what they can to alleviate that may mean saying, Hey, I'm gay, like it's cool, like whatever, or it may mean crossing the street.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: It you know, it's just there's so many simple ways to just like respect our space that help us be like, oh, okay, like you said, like you could almost see it, you know.
32:29
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
32:30
SPEAKER_04: And it's just sad that it has to be that way.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: That's kinda you know what bothers me more than anything else.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: So we got about we got we heard about Russia.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: I want to ask my silly question.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a silly question.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: All right.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: My silly question is what would you do if you found a magic remote control for real life?
33:00
SPEAKER_04: Magic remote control for real life.
33:05
SPEAKER_04: So how would I use it?
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:09
SPEAKER_04: I think I would use it to read minds because I I want to know the truth or the origins behind how someone presents themselves.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: That I was not expecting that one.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: I like that one.
33:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: Especially in this day and age, we're we're seeing a lot of false media.
33:57
SPEAKER_04: We're seeing a lot of politicians presenting false narratives.
34:03
SPEAKER_04: Um, and we don't really know who to trust.
34:08
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think, you know, being able to read the minds of the intention, the true intention, would kind of help us know who to avoid better and who to trust better.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: You know.
34:20
SPEAKER_04: So that that Good.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: I think I'll be sh I would not be shocked to find out that the answer was no one.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: We can trust no one.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: I feel like Oh, I I I don't know.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Or less than what we think we expect.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Like you expect to be this percentage.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh wow, that that's just less than that.
34:40
SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't be shocked.
34:42
SPEAKER_04: Um, no, I I wouldn't I I'll say this much, okay?
34:46
SPEAKER_04: When I do my workshop on what is love, I believe that truly only 10% of the population truly understands love.
34:55
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I would say, yeah, there's a big majority of people that are selfish and don't have the capacity to understand the greatest good for all.
35:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I would say there are people with good intentions, with goodwill, and it's just a very small percentage, only because I think as time progresses and resources become scarce and stuff, selfishness is playing into our value structure.
35:24
SPEAKER_04: Now, I'll say this, I'm gonna put on my psychology hat.
35:28
SPEAKER_04: We as humans are actually designed to be selfish, it's the survival skill, okay?
35:34
SPEAKER_04: Um, so but we are human beings, so we should be able to rise above that to look at the greater good for all, to have better resources, go for green energy, you know.
35:48
SPEAKER_04: But what you see is dynamics of selfishness of people that are saying, you know, greed is good, you know.
35:55
SPEAKER_04: That's an Ayn Rand statement from the 1950s.
35:59
SPEAKER_04: Um and we see a society moving towards that, and that's the problem, is that you know, we're we're sort of abandoning communal uh understanding and communal growth for individual growth.
36:14
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I I actually think in part social media is playing into that, um, and it's sad.
36:20
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that's kind of my take on it.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think that also humans are designed almost like as pack animals.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, we live in groups.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: We we've never existed solo.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Um so at what at what point does the greed that we seek remove us from our community, and then what are we gonna be like?
36:51
SPEAKER_01: You can't, I mean you could cuddle with your money, but really you can't.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's you know, it's like the experiment with the Rhesus monkey, right?
36:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like you there is no um imitation for communal and community aspects of the human experience.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: So how do you find the balance?
37:13
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, you have to take what you need and share.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And sharing is hard for a lot of people because why should I share when I can have a private jet and go on a vacation, you're fine, you know.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Like I know it's an extreme example, but but it's not self- I mean you know, but it's but it's not.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: It's right, it's not.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: There are countries, and uh I know that you guys are in the States, but there are countries that have a cap on what CEOs can earn uh uh in relationship to their common worker.
37:51
SPEAKER_04: So I mean, yeah, exactly.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Personally, I I don't think that that's a bad thing because it's not like the CEOs are you know on the cheese line.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: They're still doing well.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: But you know, so I hope I answered your question or your silly question.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all right, let me go mine because I always forget to do mine because I'm so this is really stupid.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Would you rather fight one horse-sized duck or a hundred duck-sized horses?
38:29
SPEAKER_04: I would rather fight one horse-sized duck, because then I'm running away from one, not a hundred, if needed.
38:38
SPEAKER_04: So I like that question.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: That was funny.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: That was that was silly.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: You were right on point.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Yay, I got it right.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, before the silly question, I had uh actual something to ask you about, but I don't remember.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm really bad with my memory.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: W can I ask you why you have three Wikipedia pages?
39:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:03
SPEAKER_04: Oh, three different languages.
39:04
SPEAKER_04: One's in Spanish, one's in German, and one's in English.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: So you know.
39:10
SPEAKER_04: And I didn't write these Wikipedia pages, so you have either fans or you have um people from Wikipedia, they're like, oh, you know, he has books present in our country.
39:22
SPEAKER_04: We should have a profile for him.
39:24
SPEAKER_04: Um so there's there's actually just recently I wrote a poem um that hasn't been published in English.
39:34
SPEAKER_04: It was translated into Spanish, and then it was purchased by a Finnish uh literary magazine, and finally in April, it's coming out in English.
39:44
SPEAKER_04: And I'm not known for poetry, um, but this poem has just really taken off.
39:50
SPEAKER_04: Um the poem is entitled From a Flower Wilting to a Flower Blooming, and it's based on uh Zeno, the first Stoic.
40:02
SPEAKER_04: Um, and here's a perfect example where I try to write something innocent and it blows up in my face.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: So um Zeno is considered he's Greek, he's considered the father of Stoicism, um, which is a philosoph uh philosophical belief and structure.
40:20
SPEAKER_04: And he had a student named Petraeus who fell madly in love with him, and they were there was a big age gap between the two of them.
40:27
SPEAKER_04: And uh in Greek culture and Roman culture, you your teacher was partially your lover at that area because you learned through them.
40:39
SPEAKER_04: And Petraeus was madly in love with Zeno, and Zeno's like, okay, now you are of the age where you have to marry, have children, and you know, support the polis.
40:49
SPEAKER_04: That's the way it's been for ages, and he didn't want to do that, and so the poem is based on you know Zeno telling Petraeus, look, I am a flower wilti, and this is a romantic time now, but not in the future.
41:05
SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna see me, you know, crouched over and ill and old and ragged, you know.
41:11
SPEAKER_04: You're still blooming, you have all those years in front of you.
41:14
SPEAKER_04: And it just raises the moral question, you know, do these age gap romances, you know, is it the responsibility of, you know, doing a modern application to this?
41:25
SPEAKER_04: Is there, you know, the responsibility of the older to really prepare the younger for the realities of what their love is, you know?
41:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, and again, it's a moral question.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: Do they back away like Xeno did?
41:39
SPEAKER_04: You know?
41:40
SPEAKER_04: Now the sad part of it, Zeno made this statement to Petraeus saying, you'll find better love.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: You know, let me go, go on.
41:49
SPEAKER_04: You don't know, but you'll find a better love.
41:50
SPEAKER_04: But he didn't know either.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: So when Zeno died, Petraeus came to the realization, no, I still love him.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: He was the greatest love, you know?
42:00
SPEAKER_04: So it showed a flaw, and here's where I made the mistake.
42:03
SPEAKER_04: It showed a flaw in stoicism that philosophers didn't realize, which is Stoics believe that virtue is the most important thing, right?
42:15
SPEAKER_04: So what Zeno's thinking he's doing by releasing his beloved is it's virtuous.
42:21
SPEAKER_04: Let him go, he'll have a better life.
42:23
SPEAKER_04: He's young.
42:24
SPEAKER_04: The flaw is then over honesty.
42:28
SPEAKER_04: That's not an honest answer.
42:30
SPEAKER_04: So there's a flaw in stoicism they never thought about.
42:33
SPEAKER_04: So then all of a sudden, this got published, and then all these philosophers are calling me, oh, could you come to a debate?
42:39
SPEAKER_04: You know, and I'm like, I'm not a philosopher.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: I am not I'm a I'm a this is not what I'm doing.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: I didn't mean to do this.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Oops.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: Like you fall into like the best thing in the world.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: You're like, how did that happen?
42:53
SPEAKER_00: What did I do?
42:55
SPEAKER_04: And philosophy now did it, you know, they wanted to do an article about my position.
42:59
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I don't have a position.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: You want to get one and get one quick.
43:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: So wait, are you going to get a position and take like, what are you going to do with that?
43:12
SPEAKER_04: There was a school in Minnesota who knew I was scared to go up against philosophers because that's not my area of expertise.
43:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, so they had their literary department come and say, you know, would you talk about it from a literary point of view?
43:26
SPEAKER_04: I said, that I can do.
43:28
SPEAKER_04: You know, and then they'll have a you know, their people kind of segue into how stoicism is affected by that.
43:36
SPEAKER_04: I don't have to say that, you know.
43:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, so I just stumbled into this and I'm like, oops, oopsie.
43:44
SPEAKER_04: You know, sometimes I need to just shut up.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: Or not, or or not, don't do that.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: You can't not.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's the beauty of writing, whatever your niche is, is because you get people thinking, you get people talking, you get people feeling.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And now look at you.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: You're you got philosophers that want to philosophize with you.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Not a word, but it is now.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Um but you're doing what you're supposed to do, you know.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're getting people to think.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, they want you to think back on levels you were prepared for, but you know.
44:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
44:22
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's religion.
44:23
SPEAKER_04: I mean, like religion, I have.
44:25
SPEAKER_04: A strong feeling about and spirituality, but philosophy is you know it's it's its own gamut.
44:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's I I never really studied it.
44:34
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I mean, I knew that Zeno was the founder of Stoicism.
44:39
SPEAKER_04: I know the basics of Stoicism, but um, you know, beyond that, I couldn't compare different philosophical positions on things, you know.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: Um, I enjoyed listening to it.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: I just don't have an expertise in that.
44:54
SPEAKER_04: He's on it.
44:55
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, that's an honest answer.
44:56
SPEAKER_04: I know my limits.
44:57
SPEAKER_04: I don't pretend to be someone I'm not, you know.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's another this the genuine thoughts and feelings behind your writing shows because you just this is what I feel, this is what I do know, and take it for what take it for what it is.
45:14
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes, yeah.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: And now look what you got.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: You give yourself in so much trouble.
45:20
SPEAKER_04: Here's something that I think you'll like to hear about, which is a lot of the short stories have very Muslim-based or Islamic-based uh scenarios.
45:30
SPEAKER_04: Um because there is a a very long history of homophobia homophobia in religious contexts.
45:40
SPEAKER_04: But what they don't know is historically um homosexuality has been present and very prevalent in uh Islamic culture.
45:51
SPEAKER_04: And one of my stories, you said you wanted to look at one of my stories, one of the stories that I would have shared with you is The Journey and the Jewels.
45:59
SPEAKER_04: And the reason why, and that's an Islamic story, and the reason why that is an amazing story is it's based on a bit of truth.
46:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, Abu Nuwas is an Islamic poet, and he wrote very beautiful poems.
46:15
SPEAKER_04: Just he's a classic.
46:17
SPEAKER_04: All the schools in um uh the Middle East or um Muslim countries and the Middle East, not all countries are Muslim, um their schools, uh their literary departments study Abu Nuaz, but he wrote a lot of gay, erotic love poems, and they've removed those poems in a lot of the Muslim universities, even though he's very well known for this, you know.
46:46
SPEAKER_04: So one of the things I found out was he, when he was born, his mother was so poor, she so sold him into slavery, right?
46:56
SPEAKER_04: And the thing that was most noted about him was he was a very beautiful child.
47:02
SPEAKER_04: And one day his cousin, who was a soldier, went to find him and bought him out of slavery, and so that was the basis of the journey and the jewels.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: And um, in that story, um, I changed the scenario where it's a foreign Arabic prince, Arabian prince, who had a slave who he fell in love with.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, the the king said that's forbidden, so he got rid of the slake, and you know, the the prince's heart was just so hurt.
47:36
SPEAKER_04: Well, he once got a teacher that was a worldly teacher that knew that love is love and said, Look, I taught princes that love other men, you know, it's no big deal.
47:46
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, Oh my god, I have to meet one of these princes and profess my love.
47:51
SPEAKER_04: So he sold everything he had and bought three uh jewels to present to his potential beloved.
48:00
SPEAKER_04: One was an emerald, and one was a diamond, and the other one was a ruby.
48:05
SPEAKER_04: So he went on this journey, and in the course of the journey, uh he stumbled upon the woman who's from his kingdom dying.
48:13
SPEAKER_04: And so he was a compassionate uh prince and he sent her to get well, but the the doctor said, Well, she's poor, I'm not.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: So he gave he gave her the uh ruby for it, right?
48:28
SPEAKER_04: So that he would take care of her.
48:29
SPEAKER_04: And then when he went to the foreign kingdom, he saw his slave, the one that he was in love with, being beaten.
48:37
SPEAKER_04: And he ran up and he said, You know, what's going on?
48:40
SPEAKER_04: He goes, Oh, he's a thief, he needs to die.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: And he turned to the slave, and the slave said, No, um, he's just a jealous lover.
48:49
SPEAKER_04: And so he reached and he said, Look, I will give you this emerald if you free the slave.
48:56
SPEAKER_04: And he freed them, and then, you know, the prince collapsed, he was very sick, and the slave took care of him, and then he was finally well enough.
49:03
SPEAKER_04: He goes, I'm gonna go to the foreign prince and profess my love, you know.
49:07
SPEAKER_04: So he went to the foreign prince and professed his love, and the prince was so vain.
49:10
SPEAKER_04: He's like, I have a harem of men.
49:12
SPEAKER_04: You're just gonna be number 100, great, you know?
49:15
SPEAKER_04: And he was so enraged by that he left and he went back to the to the slave and said, Look, I should have looked for you.
49:23
SPEAKER_04: I should have looked for you, and I'm here now, and I love you.
49:27
SPEAKER_04: And he presented the very last jewel, the diamond.
49:31
SPEAKER_04: So each of those had a significant story to it.
49:34
SPEAKER_04: The red ruby is greed, red greed, green, green with envy, jealousy, and then the diamond, the purest of loves, the purest element on earth.
49:44
SPEAKER_04: So that's how I write my stories.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to get you guys.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: I am kind of mad that I've never known that this existed before now.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: Seriously.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: And for me to be like an ice princess, I'm also like the sappiest ice princess ever.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: So don't tell anyone I have feelings.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't stand you right now.
50:12
SPEAKER_04: But you know, these are lessons, you know, because I always felt why I got into writing was I felt we didn't get the the fairy tale romances and the how which are the how-to's to be chivalry and gallantry and stuff.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:24
SPEAKER_04: So why don't I put that out there so that gay men could learn it and bring it to their, you know, uh their their love, their lives, you know?
50:33
SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of how I do it.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've heard a lot of feedback from the antagonist and those people.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: What's your feedback from your LGBTQ um population?
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Claims.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: My God.
50:54
SPEAKER_04: They love it.
50:55
SPEAKER_04: They absolutely um the funny thing was when I started out, and this is in the late 1990s, I just was selling short stories to magazines, you know?
51:04
SPEAKER_04: And I had a few magazines come back saying, hey, um people are reading it, it's helping our subscriber growth.
51:10
SPEAKER_04: Could you we're gonna buy another one, you know?
51:13
SPEAKER_04: So I just got enough short stories to make, you know, an anthology.
51:16
SPEAKER_04: So that's how the Gay Icon Classics came about.
51:20
SPEAKER_04: But when I was getting into it and trying to sell a book, um, a lot of the publishers are like, look, if it doesn't have gratuitous sex, it's not gonna sell.
51:29
SPEAKER_04: And I just held to my belief, no, that's not true.
51:33
SPEAKER_04: You know.
51:33
SPEAKER_04: Um, it it might not sell a hundred million copies, but there is a market for it.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: There's a market for it.
51:39
unknown: Yeah.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Because honestly, I when it gets to that part of my reading, I usually just skip over it.
51:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: Like I scan it, I'm like, I I like I listen, I know how to have sex.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's move on to what actually matters.
51:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: So I personally I think there's more people that who want the love.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: They don't need they don't need the extra.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Because we could do that's easy.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: That's that's easy.
52:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and the people have to realize that you know, that is just one element of a relationship, you know, sex, you know, but it's not the element.
52:14
SPEAKER_04: And a lot of gay men make that mistake where, you know, the sex is great, but they don't develop as individuals and they realize they're two different individuals.
52:22
SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of why I push these stories to say, you know, make that's one component.
52:29
SPEAKER_04: Look at the other components as well, and in deciding on the compatibility of your future with someone.
52:43
SPEAKER_00: The perpetual single woman.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm just like, okay, now I need to find love.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna find love here in Wisconsin.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can't say that.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: You you know I've been trying.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: It does not work.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: I c I haven't found love in New York either, so I don't know if maybe I'm just gonna come to New Jersey.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to I'm thinking I'm gonna have to like leave the country.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I figure it out.
53:07
SPEAKER_04: Agnes, let me give you some word of hope here.
53:09
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
53:10
SPEAKER_04: I am in my 50s.
53:12
SPEAKER_04: I didn't find David the love of my life until I was in my 50s, and then we were married, you know.
53:18
SPEAKER_04: So you can you you can't just hang it up and say, you know, no.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I won't hang it up.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm just the way I'm like, okay, I'm still waiting.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm gonna be patient.
53:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's the most cliche, it's the most cliche thing I could say.
53:32
SPEAKER_04: It happens when you're not looking for it.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: When you're not looking, and to be fair, Agnes today, I'm a better version of me.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think like I find that person now or later on, I know it's it's gonna be the right one.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be for the rest of my life.
53:47
SPEAKER_00: Because Agnes, yeah, I gotta say so.
53:49
SPEAKER_04: And I was there, Agnes.
53:50
SPEAKER_04: I was there until you know I'm in my 50s and David came along.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, You're like, hey, where'd you come from?
53:56
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: Get over here.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Lisa.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
54:02
SPEAKER_00: There's a little sappy look on your face.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: I want to say I like a happy ending, but I know how it's gonna sound, even though I we all like a happy ending.
54:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
54:15
SPEAKER_04: You know what I say to David?
54:17
SPEAKER_04: Um, I I tell him, You're the second best decision in my life.
54:22
SPEAKER_04: Because my first best decision was to come to Canada.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming you met David in Canada.
54:29
SPEAKER_04: Right.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: He's the So, yes.
54:31
SPEAKER_04: So he accepts that.
54:32
SPEAKER_04: He understands that you know if I didn't go to Canada, I wouldn't meet David.
54:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, okay.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: Dave is your husband, Derek is your cousin.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: Right?
54:41
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: Where are you from originally?
54:44
SPEAKER_04: I was born in Queens, flushing, New York.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: All right.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: So not far from you guys.
54:52
SPEAKER_04: But I was a kid.
54:53
SPEAKER_04: We moved to Connecticut when I was very young.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: What part of Connecticut, if I may ask?
54:59
SPEAKER_04: Trumbull.
55:00
SPEAKER_04: It's in Fairfield County.
55:01
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
55:02
SPEAKER_04: Trumbull, Connecticut.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not sure.
55:04
SPEAKER_04: Big shopping mall.
55:05
SPEAKER_04: Everyone knows Trumbull shopping park.
55:08
unknown: Okay.
55:08
SPEAKER_04: Malls are kind of dying at it.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: I think I've may have heard of it, but I'm sure.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: True.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because Connecticut's like I could throw a rock and hit it, but exactly, exactly.
55:20
SPEAKER_04: It's funny because I have cousins in Boston in Massachusetts, cousins, but we all originated from New York.
55:28
SPEAKER_04: So um it's just funny the rivalry of all the three.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: Boston.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Between the sports and the pizza, it's like pizza is not like, come on.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: Sports, I can get us going back and forth.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Pizza, there's no No, I love New York pizza.
55:48
SPEAKER_04: I love New York Pizza.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
55:50
SPEAKER_01: So that was gonna be my question, right?
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Because Connecticut thinks that they have the best pizza.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: So being originally from New York, but then living in Connecticut, where do you lie?
55:59
SPEAKER_01: Or is or if that's not an okay question, I don't want to start any fights.
56:02
SPEAKER_04: No, no, it's okay.
56:03
SPEAKER_04: Um, apparently, pizza was started in New Haven historically.
56:08
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I still am a New York pizza guy.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, just when they started it, don't mean they perfected it.
56:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: One year on my birthday, my friend and I went to Connecticut for just like a weekend trip, and we were like, we are just gonna hit up all of the pizza spots and taste the different pizzas and just see what all the hype is about.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: And it was good.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say it wasn't good, it was delicious, but it is not New York pizza.
56:42
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
56:43
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
56:44
SPEAKER_04: So the sad truth is that in Vancouver there's this place called Nats New York style pizza, and it's like, ugh, it's New York pizza, but it's not New York pizza, you know what I mean?
56:57
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's something in the phone.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it's in the water or something, and you just can't replicate New York pizza outside of New York.
57:05
SPEAKER_04: Now, here's another thing I'll do.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I was just gonna say, like, even here in Jersey, right?
57:11
SPEAKER_01: It's literally right across.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: And the pizza's okay.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not New York pizza, but I did find one little hole in the wall kind of restaurant, and I'm like, oh my god, this is the best pizza I ever have.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: And we order from them like at least once a week.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, it's okay.
57:29
SPEAKER_01: If I'm single-handedly keeping them in business, it's fine.
57:31
SPEAKER_01: They do pizza and tacos, and I'm like, I love you guys.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here in my neighborhood.
57:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, I went, I went to the University of San Francisco.
57:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm actually in their hoo-hoos.
57:43
SPEAKER_04: Do you know the founders of Starbucks are also alumni from the University?
57:47
SPEAKER_04: And I met them, and they were just import-export people.
57:51
SPEAKER_04: They weren't like this big conglomerate that we know of Starbucks.
57:56
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, make a long story short, the best Mexican foods in California.
58:02
SPEAKER_04: I just the burrito, everything, right?
58:03
SPEAKER_04: Really?
58:04
SPEAKER_04: Canada, I have yet to have a decent Mexican meal in Canada.
58:09
SPEAKER_04: I, you know, every time I'm in the States, that's the first thing I go for is Mexican food.
58:13
SPEAKER_04: It's just so much better.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now I'm hungry and I'm just saying I'm always hungry, so you know.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, by the way, Lisa, I found a new Mexican place.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: I sent you the link to it.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I saw it.
58:29
unknown: Yeah.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: That was a long video that just made me hungry.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: So, question.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: Answer any what are you what's next for you?
58:37
SPEAKER_00: What's on the horizon for you?
58:38
SPEAKER_00: What should we be looking forward to?
58:42
SPEAKER_04: Well, and I hate to tell you this story because it's kind of sad.
58:45
SPEAKER_04: Um, there was a production company that was going to produce The Blue Door as the first family Christmas special, and they were getting a partner, and the partner was uh in a Ukrainian production company, but then the war broke out.
59:04
SPEAKER_04: So everything was done, the script was done, everything was ready to go, and then the war broke out.
59:08
SPEAKER_04: Um so I'm I want to circle back and get that off the ground.
59:14
SPEAKER_04: So I'm trying to, you know, uh get that all together.
59:20
SPEAKER_04: And it was almost getting together because the actually the American embassy in Ukraine was really helping me.
59:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, but then we had a change.
59:31
SPEAKER_04: Well, we won't go here, but we had a change in American administration, and so that kind of fell through.
59:37
SPEAKER_04: So um, yeah, that's my next to get this this uh holiday Christmas family special out.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Will we be looking forward to that stalking you?
59:48
SPEAKER_01: Is there is there a place where people can go to find out more about you or get your books and like maybe a preferred place that you would hope?
59:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
59:58
SPEAKER_04: Amazon, any bookstore carries my books.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_04: Okay, you know, the ebooks at least.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I I give no preference uh to what whichever.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, and I also am conscious that we're in a tough economic times right now.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_04: You could get my book at the library, you know.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_04: Uh I that's that's also an option for people.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_04: So I I you know I I'm not always pushing my books to to buy, you know, knowing how people are financially, you can go to the library.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: If there was one book of yours that you like somebody says, I want to read one of your books, but I can only read one, what would which one would it be?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: Which one would you recommend to them?
1:00:48
SPEAKER_04: Well, it really depends on what you're looking for.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_04: If you want to learn the allegories and the lessons and stuff, the gay icon classes of the world, um if you want to uh get an understanding of the coming out process in Canada, this high school has prop closets is very good.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_04: But if you really want a good novel that has a depth to it, um I'm trying to remember this book.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_04: Oh my goodness.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_04: So when you write too many books, this is what happens.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, um I'm trying to and the irony of this book, um, trying to buy time is uh it's based on uh Newark, New Jersey.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_04: It comes out of Newark, New Jersey.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_04: The problem with the book though is um it it came out during COVID, so no one was going to the bookstores.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: Um let's see.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: Frantically trying to.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_01: If you can't remember, it's okay.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_04: Um why am I Yeah, I'll have to get back to you, but there's another book that um uh I can't believe I can I can't believe I can't remember my own book.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm putting you on the spot.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, no, no.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_04: I shouldn't know this.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_04: I it's kind of embarrassing.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_04: Uh but I wrote so many books.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_04: Like someone actually did a quote from me, and I didn't remember the source of the quote.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_04: So, I mean that happens a lot.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, but the the quote was um Christians were to Romans what uh they were something to feed to the lines, uh no, romantics were to gays what Christians were to the Romans, something to feed to the lions.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_04: So I made that quote and I forgot I made that quote, but you know, people remember you know what you do, and um they hold you to it.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_04: And I said, Did I say that?
1:03:11
SPEAKER_00: You like dad, that was good.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: Before we let you go, do you have any last words for us or listeners?
1:03:25
SPEAKER_04: Um first of all, thank you for having me.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_04: I really, really enjoyed um, you know, just it's such a relaxed environment.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_04: You can just say what you do, and you know, I I didn't feel on the spot at all.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, I can answer all your questions.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_04: So thank you.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh this was really fun.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_04: And and keep it up.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_04: Sassin Sips is is you know a good a good place to go when you really want to just you know kick back and just have a good talk.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_04: So I really appreciate that.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: That is a lot.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: It truly means a lot to us.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_04: And it's sincere because I go on a lot of podcasts and it's like, ugh, when will this end?
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: One thing, yeah, we we we do not want to make anyone feel that way.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_01: So we we really do try our best to make everyone feel welcomed and and like your guests in our home, you know.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so glad that that's your experience.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, keep up the good work.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, we'll be in touch.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: So I will be stalking you and your works and be looking for the I'm gonna be updating my my wish list.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_04: That's so so nice to hear.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_04: All right, well, you guys take care.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so let's let's end this episode and we remind all our visitors to visit SassinSips.com for more information on us and our guests.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: We remind you to drink responsibly and not drink and drive.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_01: And until next time, I'm Lisa.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Agnes.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I I remember the the name of the book now.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_04: Yes, The Counting of Sins.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: I was going to guess that that was it, but I'm like, no, that we not be okay.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_04: So the Bible says you have 473 sins in your lifetime, but what if you go to 474?
1:05:24
SPEAKER_04: And that's what the book's about, the counting of sins.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_04: Sorry.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: Jeez Lisa, I'm Agnes.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, we're out of here.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: We're out.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: See you later.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_04: All right.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_04: Take care.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I should also add that my cousin said, do not come to Hawaii unless you watch all the series of heated rivalry.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_04: This is how obsessed he is about the show.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna watch it once we're done recording now.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_04: It has a huge women following.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_04: It's like the the the greatest thing.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_04: Everyone's talking about it.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_04: So I, you know, when he said you have to watch the show, I was like, I'll do one up.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_04: I'll write the creator and say, Hey, could I do a guest episode?
1:06:12
SPEAKER_04: So I got an email back saying, you know, here's the financers, if they're okay, you know, just copy them and we'll get back to you.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_04: And they, you know.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_04: So I I have a lot of writer friends for TV shows, and uh the one of the the uh executives at Bell Media wrote back saying, you know, it's you know Jacob's decision, um, so we'll leave it with him.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_04: So when I told my writer friends that they're like, really?
1:06:43
SPEAKER_04: She wrote you?
1:06:44
SPEAKER_04: She never writes writers.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_04: That's not, you know.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_04: So basically that happens in the background.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_04: They're like, you know, the the uh producers or the financiers of shows, um, like HBO, they'll write back and say, Hey, you know, this writer's good, or hey, we don't know him, or he's too green, or you know, we don't want him.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_04: But that's behind the scenes.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_04: They never copy the writer.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_04: You know, so they said that's a big deal, you know.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_04: So I think what we're hearing is, you know, um, they want a little more romance in there.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_04: And since I'm Canada's only male romantic writer, according to Wikipedia, you know, I think they're kind of nudging some substance there.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_04: So I might be writing for that show.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, yay, yay! That's exciting.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna have to we're gonna have to do like another episode with you then, you know.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_04: Right, after we watch Heated Rivalry.