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When democracy is a dream · Save Democracy

• 0:00
  For those of us who live in a democracy, it can be very easy to take it for
• 0:04
  granted, to overlook how important it is to the foundations of our lives
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  I'm speaking today with a young man from a country where rights and democracy
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  effectively don't exist, where there are more than 20,000 political prisoners.
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  The country sits at the bottom of the global democracy indices,
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  alongside Afghanistan and North Korea.
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  Maung, I'm calling him Maung, from Myanmar, is reading his doctorate in
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  Europe, and because of the ways in which his government uses technology
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  to track down and suppress dissent and target one's family, we've invited
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  a voice actor to read his voice.
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  But when you hear what Maung has to say about what it's like in
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  Myanmar, I think you'll agree it's important for him to be heard.
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  Thank you so much for inviting me on this podcast.
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  Shall we start with describing the conditions of life inside Myanmar today?
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  Yes.
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  So first of all, thank you so much for talking about my country's condition,
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  because most people don't know what's really happening inside the country.
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  Since the military coup in 2021, people living below the poverty line
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  has risen to nearly a third of the population, reversing years of progress.
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  There is widespread malnutrition.
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  There are 16 million people needing humanitarian assistance, and more than
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  three million people internally displaced and many displaced to nearby countries.
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  Inflation and currency collapse has reduced wages significantly,
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  and the education and healthcare system are heavily disrupted.
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  There are lots of airstrikes and villages burnt down.
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  There are landmines, especially in Shan State.
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  One in five casualties of landmines are children.
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  There is limited electricity and internet access in many areas,
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  and mostly in the urban areas.
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  Some days, some people only get two hours a day of electricity, many are unable to
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  work, to produce any goods or services.
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  People who can afford it use solar panels or generators.
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  Foreign companies have left the country because of the electricity and internet
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  shortages, increasing unemployment.
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  I'm assuming there's no kind of welfare system as we might
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  traditionally understand it.
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  Independent media based outside the country have reported in some areas,
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  families are living on one meal a day.
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  Sometimes they can get help from the local church or monastery.
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  Depends on the monastery.
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  Depends on the church.
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  There's no welfare system from the government available 'to anyone in need'.
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  Many people help each other whenever they feel hungry or
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  whenever they have some other need.
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  They might post it on the social media.
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  Some make a donation, give things on the street or something like that.
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  But it's only people supporting people, not from the military government
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  Given the nature of the regime, there must be an almost complete absence of civil
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  society other than humanitarian actors.
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  Is that right?
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  Yes.
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  Since the military coup, lots of NGO organizations have been shut
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  down and independent news media and research groups have left the country.
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  And there's no free media?
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  Yes.
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  There is no free media inside the country.
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  Sometimes it is very difficult to access real footage or
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  information on what is happening.
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  And for using social media, you were saying there's limited internet access?
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  Yeah.
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  I have friends who live in the civil war area.
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  They have to use Starlink.
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  There is a lot of Starlink use in the civil war zone.
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  I guess that having Starlink and internet access and power and all
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  of those things requires a certain level of means, and it would be beyond
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  many people to have access to that?
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  Yes.
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  And you'd have to be quite well connected to be able to post on
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  social media and ask for help.
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  Yes.
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  Even if you got the internet access, you cannot use Facebook or Instagram or
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  YouTube and also some other websites which have all been banned by the military.
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  So if you want to use those things, you need to use a VPN.
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  So there is limited access to social media even if you have internet access.
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  On freedom of expression, or rather its absence, what happens when
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  you try to raise a critical voice or complain about the poverty or
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  criticize the military, whether you're alone or inside some kind of group?
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  Social media and the internet is under surveillance.
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  It's heavily controlled by the military.
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  So you might use a VPN, but people have to lock and block their own profile
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  because the military check who has liked something online or commented or supported
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  in some way, say, a voice from the rebellion or independent news reporting
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  on Myanmar, and they trace it back.
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  Okay.
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  So you basically cannot express any kind of criticism, or
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  support of opposition voices.
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  People who have criticized or are commenting and also video recording,
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  showing their face on the video and criticizing the government, these
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  people are mostly outside Myanmar, and their families and all their
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  relatives are also outside the country.
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  If you speak out or are talking about the Myanmar condition and your family or
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  relatives are inside the country, they might get harmed by the military, or you
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  might be denied access to the country.
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  Inside the country, there are thousands of political prisoners.
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  Independent investigators have uncovered systematic torture in military-run
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  detention facilities, including beatings, electric shocks, and sexual violence.
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  The recent UN report uncovering this evidence said this pattern of atrocities
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  was intensifying across the country.
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  As for Myanmar's parliament, as I understand it, the pro-military party,
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  along with the actual seats reserved for the military, means that the
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  military junta and their supporters control about 90% of the seats, right?
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  Oh, yes.
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  That's right.
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  So despite the poverty and harsh daily conditions for many people, there's
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  nothing you can really say or do against it or raise any voice against it.
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  How is the basic safety and security for ordinary people?
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  It's much worse in recent years because they created a new
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  law of forced conscription.
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  People do not want to serve in the military.
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  They are forcing people to kill their own people, and it's meant to
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  be for two years, but in reality, when you are in, you may be in for
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  much longer if you're not killed.
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  And the military have quotas, so they randomly pick up people on
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  the street without any consent and force them into the military.
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  To fill their quota.
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  Yes.
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  And the general insecurity day to day for ordinary people?
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  And when you go out, you need to take your identity card and
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  cash, in case something happens.
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  You need to pay the soldier or something like that.
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  So if you want to go out freely, your family has to be very very rich, because
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  they can pay or bail you out of jail.
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  Most young people don't go out at night.
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  After 10:00, all the shops are closed.
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  When there's a curfew, if you want to go to a club, you would
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  have to stay the whole night.
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  There are also many checkpoints, and if you are traveling to another region, you
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  may need documents, and it's very costly.
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  I was going to ask you about propaganda.
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  Where there are so many severe restrictions, to what extent
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  does the junta need propaganda?
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  They need it.
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  They need it because it's been a long-lasting war.
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  There is much suffering.
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  There's so much poverty, and some people are starving.
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  There's a lot of heartache and deep tensions.
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  In their propaganda, the government call themselves 'heroes'.
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  The groups that fight back are all 'terrorists'.
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  The previous government was 'fraudulent'.
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  They blame all the poverty and suffering on the different ethnic
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  groups and the previous government.
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  They use actors and artists who have been in prison, who were pro-democracy,
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  imprisoned for protesting or supporting the previous government.
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  As a condition for their release, they must help make the state propaganda.
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  They participate in the state media, the sham election campaigning.
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  They used to be, like, a pro-democrat.
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  Now they report to the military, and they're just smiling,
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  encouraging people to vote in the last election campaign in 2025.
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  It's so devastating.
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  When they're needed, the military can call.
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  If you do not participate, you will be in jail again.
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  I imagine hope is hard to find inside Myanmar
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  Yes.
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  Yes, there is much hopelessness
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  And the opposition is fractured and scattered, right?
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  Yes.
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  Yes
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  It must be very hard to build a kind of opposition voice that's unified
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  Yes.
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  There, there are lots of armed groups.
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  They do not have the same goal other than to destroy the military junta.
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  But beyond that, there are sadly many differences.
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  There is a long history of division over authority, land, governance.
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  Their first aim would be to destroy the junta and establish like a federal
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  system like in the US or India.
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  But there is a lack of education and lack of resources.
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  There is one group in the west of the country with strong forces, and
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  I believe that might have their own system, their own education, and
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  their own legal and civil system.
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  But they're all vulnerable from the air.
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  Only the military junta has air forces
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  A historically unifying force famously was Aung San Suu Kyi.
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  Now she's in her 80s in prison, and her whereabouts is unknown.
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  Is that right?
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  Yes.
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  We still do not know where she is and how she is.
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  That's sad news.
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  And even her son is continuously requesting to the military junta to
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  meet with her, but they won't let him talk to her or even see her face.
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  And if there was another potentially unifying figure to
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  emerge, it must be impossible to communicate widely or campaign.
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  When you can't have a platform, you don't have any way of
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  communicating on a mass level.
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  You have no way of collectively organizing.
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  Yeah.
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  And, and another reason is the brain drain.
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  Most of the highly educated people are in the US or UK or scattered around Europe.
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  What's it like to try to leave the country, and what are
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  the implications if you do?
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  There are many restrictions.
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  You need lots of documentation, and it is a long process.
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  And many people are prevented from leaving.
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  And you are, you're getting resistance from the other end, too.
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  A blocking of study abroad, for example, in certain countries.
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  Yes, from UK and US, because most of the students are applying for asylum.
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  If you go back after your studies, you might end up in jail or conscripted
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  into the junta's forces to kill your own people or die on the front line.
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  Is there any message you have for the international community?
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  Please consider new legal routes to help people at great risk
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  in Myanmar who seek to flee.
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  And please sanction the military government in ways
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  that can weaken the regime.
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  I noticed after the recent sham elections, the newly appointed president of Myanmar
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  was recently sworn in, and there were other countries there marking the
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  occasion at the inauguration ceremony.
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  Yes especially India, Russia, and China.
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  Russia and China, of course, both help arm the military junta.
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  Maung, what's it like to be in Europe surrounded by fellow students?
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  The people around you are living in a mature democracy.
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  When I reached here, I got a lot of culture shock.
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  People can criticize their government, even in the newsroom, and young people
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  can go out at night and have fun.
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  It's really fantastic, for young people.
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  Also, they can live with their families, and they are together.
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  The cities and the countryside is peaceful, so it's
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  very… It's very precious.
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  It's very nice.
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  It's like why people in Myanmar say that if you're living in Europe or if
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  you're living in another democratic country, you're living in heaven.
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  It's like a heaven, you don't need to die, you just reach to the heaven
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  because we are living in hell and living in the dark with fears.
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  When we had a military coup, all my family, the whole country is
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  crying, and now with a long-lasting civil war, a long-lasting military
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  rule, people are hurting a lot.
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  Of all the benefits democracy will one day bring Myanmar, what's
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  the most important thing about democracy that you most dream of?
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  I really miss my family.
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  I want to be like what we used to be like, where we could sing on the street, can
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  happily express our expressions freely.
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  We can post anything on the internet.
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  There will be no censorship on the televisions.
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  We could criticize the government freely.
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  There's no censorship even in the books and newspaper.
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  They make a censorship with the black line.
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  We want our youth back.
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  We want our people back.
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  That's our hope, and we want to be united with our families.
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  People are scattered around the country and around the world, so I, we all we
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  want to go home because it's our home.
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  It's our land.
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  It's more.
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  It's the happiest place we have ever seen before.
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  I know Europe is heaven.
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  I know this is a democratic state, but it's never been better
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  than living inside my country.
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  It's not possible for you to return?
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  It's not possible.
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  My mother always said to me to move to a better country, then
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  come back to me when it is safe.
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  I wonder how it feels when you see in Europe signs of democratic
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  decline and maybe the people around you are not really realizing it.
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  Does that worry you?
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  Is there something you notice about that?
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  Yes, I notice.
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  They need to look at those countries who have lost all their democracy
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  and see the suffering to understand, to hold precious what they have.
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  Thank you, Maung.
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  I really appreciate your honesty and sharing your reflections,
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  as painful as they can be.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you for listening.
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  To help raise awareness of the suffering in Myanmar, consider sharing this episode.
• 18:52
  I'm Katherine Davies, and this is Save Democracy.
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  Thank you for listening