Latest / Breaking Precedent / Breaking the Dress Code: Sali Christeson on Power, Workwear, and Dressing Women for the Room

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Breaking the Dress Code: Sali Christeson on Power, Workwear, and Dressing Women for the Room · Breaking Precedent

• # BP\_Sali Christeson\_Basecut **Leah:** [00:00:00] Hello, Sally. Thank you for joining me here on Breaking Precedent. **Sali:** Hi, Leah. I'm so happy to be here, joining from LA **Leah:** today. So happy. I love it. I love it. [00:00:10] Well, I'm so excited to dive in. Uh, we go way back. I was one of the initial investors in Arjune, so I've been able to see your whole journey, [00:00:20] which has been amazing, and we're gonna get into all of it. **Sali:** Thank you. Yeah, y- uh, early investor, but also, like, really the embodiment of the brand. I feel like you really do represent who our [00:00:30] brand was built for. **Leah:** Well, thank you. I am wearing an OG Arjune top today. The woven top. This might have been, like, might have been, like, 10 years ago collection, like, one of the first [00:00:40] collections, so I **Sali:** still have it. Oh, it's the asymmetrical top. I know- It's the Asym ... exactly what top it is. Mm-hmm. **Leah:** Yeah, it is. I love it. I still wear it all the time. It's, like- Ugh ... timeless. Timeless pieces. **Sali:** I was looking at a video [00:00:50] you posted yesterday. You were in, um, a, a top from our first collection, and I was like, "That speaks to w- what we're building." Like, I do think it's so important that [00:01:00] women are given pieces that can live in their closet for a decade plus. **Leah:** Absolutely, and they're still my favorite pieces, like, you know? Hon- I'm... And honestly, so I'm, I'm a [00:01:10] proud investor and, um, so, so happy to, to be able to chat with you 'cause you're just so amazing as well, so. Let's [00:01:20] start with a little icebreaker here. Um, so we're gonna, we're gonna dive into all of it, but people may not know that you both grew up in a farm in South [00:01:30] Carolina, and you spent summers in the bazaars of Turkey, two completely different worlds. So if you had to describe [00:01:40] your professional style right now using one word from each of those two places, what would the words be? **Sali:** Oh, like [00:01:50] what I got from, what, like, qualities I got professionally- Yeah ... from those experiences? **Leah:** Like, from a style standpoint too. Like, how does it show up, you know, in the way you [00:02:00] show up? **Sali:** Isn't that funny? I don't- I don't know that I even thread the needle to bring it all the way t- to my style. I would say in terms of personality, um, [00:02:10] I am Southern in that I can deliver really hard, like, cutting news very directly, and you will still like me. Like, I'll do it with a smile. [00:02:20] **Leah:** Absolutely. **Sali:** And I'm Turkish in that I really value showing up for other people and community. And how [00:02:30] that turns into style, I think I'm classic. Like, I think that both have informed sort of this, like, classic approach to dressing that's no-fuss [00:02:40] and, um, streamlined and easy and straightforward, but I still feel great. **Leah:** Love it. Love it. So before we dive deep into Argent, I wanna go [00:02:50] back to where this all started, because I think your origin story is so rich, and probably richer than most people realize. You've mentioned before that your [00:03:00] dad started selling water in the bazaars of Istanbul when he was five years old. I mean, I have a five-year-old. I'm, like, picturing this in my mind, right? [00:03:10] And so I wanna take you back to that kid on a farm in South Carolina watching your father. What did work look [00:03:20] like in that house growing up? **Sali:** Yeah, I mean, s- uh, so much of who I am was influenced and informed by both of my parents, but certainly my father. [00:03:30] Um, and my mom is no joke either. She didn't have a, like, traditional job, uh, but she is incredible, like capable in every imaginable way and probably the smartest person [00:03:40] that I know. My dad grew up one of 10 in, um, a tiny apartment with no running water with, uh, with the most incredible mother [00:03:50] and father, but, like, really mother, um, and matriarch of that family, and they had to share shoes and jackets to even b- be able to go to school. He's [00:04:00] worked since he was five, as you mentioned, which is wild, agreed. I think about it now through the lens of a parent and having that age child. Um, but I [00:04:10] got to watch him. So he started selling rugs. He, he basically worked in the bazaars of Turkey when he met my mom. He moved to the States, and he opened his own rug [00:04:20] shop. He did that from home when I was very young, and then he opened his own store when I was, I mean, still very young. Um, but I watched... I, I just got the front row seat [00:04:30] to his experience, and I think his schedule was flexible, but he was very hardworking. He would take trips, you know, buying trips, and I'd watch him work the, the books. I'd watch [00:04:40] him, I think more than anything, just, um, form relationships and, like, develop and cultivate relationships with his customers that were really like family to him. Um, and, uh, [00:04:50] all I wanted was, like, my own desk and my own stapler and my own pen- ... based on that. You know? Like, I was like, "I want- Yes. "I so badly just want to work. This is all I want." Yes. [00:05:00] Um- It's **Leah:** amazing. **Sali:** Yeah, so I started, I mean, I started a lemonade stand in the front of his shop at a very young age. That was, like, one of my first entrepreneurial endeavors. [00:05:10] Um, but I learned so, I mean, I learned so much from him about flexibility and kindness and values and, um, work ethic. **Leah:** Yeah. You said by the, by the time [00:05:20] you were seven or eight you were doing the lemonade stands, you were painting piggy banks. Was it about selling and making money for you, or was it [00:05:30] something different? Was the, was it the act of making something? What was it, the drive behind that? **Sali:** I think I did like the business of it. Like, I really liked the independence that that offered. I [00:05:40] loved the experience of creating something that was, like, of value to people that they'd then spend money on and just understand, like, learning how the world [00:05:50] works, you know, and how capitalism works, candidly. But I think for me it was so much more about the fulfillment that came from Being able to do that myself and like it's so [00:06:00] confidence building, you know? I, I don't, I don't think I was aware of all these things, but I just, I, it really, I loved it. It just felt like I had control over this thing. **Leah:** [00:06:10] Yeah. You grew up in these two very different worlds, so rural South Carolina and Turkey, and I think, you know, I have cousins in South Carolina. I know a little bit about that place. Um, and I've [00:06:20] visited Turkey, which is absolutely amazing. But I think people in either one of those worlds typically follow a pretty set path. [00:06:30] Where do you think the hunger came from for you to do something so different from the set path? **Sali:** I do ask my parents about this. I was born [00:06:40] very confident. I've always been a little bit of a maverick and very unapologetic, and I'm v- I'm so fortunate because they did not, [00:06:50] uh, they, because we were raised on a farm and I had an older brother, I was a- I was raised without really being like aware of gender expectations and like how our patriarchal [00:07:00] society is operating. Simultaneous to that, I grew up in the South with an immigrant father who is the most articulate person you'll [00:07:10] ever meet. He like just reads and studies this wordly wise book, you know, and uses bigger... He has like a bigger vocabulary and speaks seven languages, but he does have an accent. [00:07:20] Um, so I think having a front row seat to the kindness in people and also the biases in people in the South was really informative. Um, [00:07:30] and, uh- I f- I, I just think it gave me empathy. Like, and I think that going to Turkey also gave me a ton of empathy because I [00:07:40] saw what real poverty looked like, and I saw what, um... I s- there, there's a value in [00:07:50] Islam where it's like you really give the shirt off of your back to people, and my dad embodies that, and I witnessed that, and that was, that's very much ingrained in my culture. And so I think, like, all of these [00:08:00] qualities, like, very inf- very much informed my desire to do something good. But, um, it was coupled with this, like, ambition that I've always [00:08:10] possessed. Uh, and I, I have this sort of like, I don't know if righteousness is the right word, but, like, I want, you know, I'm like, I w- I'm, I understand what [00:08:20] my positive attributes are and, like, contributions that I can make are, and I believe in myself, and I came from a family that, like, gave me the confidence to be able to, like, double down on that conviction, you know?[00:08:30] So I think I'm very fortunate in a lot of ways. Um, but w- yeah. **Leah:** Well, I love the analogy of from Islam giving the shirt off your back since you did [00:08:40] create a company that sells shirts. Designs and makes these amazing tops and suits. And but we'll get into all of that, etc. [00:08:50] Um, I love that your mom always told you and your sisters to have an independent career, and, and that was also unusual for the time. I think [00:09:00] especially, you know, in the South, in the small, you know, rural environment. Did that feel like permission to you, or was there a sense of pressure around it as well? [00:09:10] **Sali:** Um, just me. I have a older brother, so it was just me. Um, it- I, I think that that i- that's the biggest gift she ever gave me. [00:09:20] She is similar in that she really goes against the grain, and so I think I get that from both of my parents. Um, b- but the thing that she [00:09:30] was so clear about was, like, education matters, independence matters, um, your career matters, and prioritize all of these things. And [00:09:40] what a gift. And so I think, like, I'm so lucky because I grew up in an environment where I understand a lot that's happening right now in our world, [00:09:50] and I understand these, like, subtle racist, sexist, you know, facets of our, of our country. Um, and I [00:10:00] ex- and I experience this, like, duality between my mom's experience and my dad's experience. Like, they have very different backgrounds. Um, and, and so [00:10:10] yeah, I don't know that I was cognizant that I was, like, being raised differently until I got a lot older. But I'm, I'm, I feel very fortunate that I w- that [00:10:20] I was basically told I could be whatever I wanted to be, and, like, go for it, and you're capable. **Leah:** What a gift. What a gift. So you end up in banking, you get your MBA, [00:10:30] you went to Cisco. It's a pretty deliberate, structured path up until that point. But you said that around the age of 30, you knew you were gonna [00:10:40] start your own company. What made you so certain about that? What was it about that? **Sali:** I would've told you at, like, the age of two, three, four- five I was gonna start my own company. Uh, I would've told [00:10:50] you in my 20s, e- even in my late teens when I started shopping for work wear, that I hated the experience and I would absolutely not start a company f- that's in apparel. Um, I'm [00:11:00] business-minded, so, like, I just, uh- I, and I'm entrepreneurial, and so I just have ha- I, I loved that idea of working for myself. But I [00:11:10] also understand how I operate. So I think, like, this probably resonates with you. There's some founders who start tinkering, like, in their college dorm room, and start selling something, and drop out, and, like, that's their business, and they [00:11:20] just go, you know, they go, go and pursue that. I am, I am on this other side of, like, almost being a more... Like, I'm obviously very [00:11:30] risk-tolerant if you look at my trajectory, but I'm very... I would say I'm more risk-averse in that I really want a holistic understanding. I wanna set myself up for success. I, [00:11:40] like, intentionally pursued an undergrad in business. I've intentionally pursued banking and finance for a couple of years. I wanted, like, real practical experience. I intentionally got my MBA. I then took that [00:11:50] into, you know, a rotational program at Cisco 'cause I wanted exposure to, like, what that looks like in an applied sense, so from academic to applied. So I really did pick this [00:12:00] path that, in my mind, best equipped me to have success in entrepreneurship, um, and was just kind of waiting for, you know, the right idea [00:12:10] or concept to present itself. But I was on that path regardless, 'cause... And I'm also not really money-motivated. **Leah:** Yeah. You're more kind of mission-driven, [00:12:20] impact-driven, vision. Yeah, I mean, it's... I'm the same way. Yeah. It's amazing. Let's talk a little bit about your time at Cisco, because that's [00:12:30] when this problem you'd been ignoring for years finally caught up with you. Can you talk a little bit about that? **Sali:** Yeah, I think there are, like, two themes that are pretty [00:12:40] consistent throughout all of my experiences, and one is related to just, like, shopping for work wear and dressing for work, and how obviously, like, women are the [00:12:50] afterthought in the world of fashion. Uh, uh, work apparel is called a bridge category in fashion school, which is like... It's really, it's really looked down upon, [00:13:00] and it's, like, not that respected, and I think that has, you know, turned into this really sad offering for women since the beginning of time, because work and [00:13:10] women don't go hand-in-hand in people's thinking. Um, and so I was annoyed throughout my experiences working in different industries and different cities and, um, different dress codes that no [00:13:20] one was catering to this woman. The other thing that kept cropping up was, like, sexism, like, a lot of gender inequity, and, um, at Cisco especially, I mean, this was [00:13:30] 2012 to 2015 that I was there, but I kept getting pulled out to, like, go to women's conferences or gender training, but it was only for the women, and I was like, "This is..." You know, I was just... I was [00:13:40] witnessing how, um, imbalanced the workforce was to begin with in that I was having to carve out time to, like, have these experiences but also be expected to do my job, [00:13:50] and I was just sort of irritated by both of those things. So yeah, come 2015, I read a study that showed that women are judged based on what they wear. They quantify the impact of what you wear on your bottom line. It [00:14:00] is quite significant. And I was like, "Fuck this." Like, "I'm quitting my job. I'm just gonna do this, and, like, what's the worst that could happen? I reenter the workforce. Like, there will be jobs." **Leah:** [00:14:10] Yeah. I mean, it, it so resonates with me, because before I started TaskRabbit, I was at IBM for eight years. Very similar. And the things you just described, [00:14:20] I was very careful about what I wore to work, and, you know, I was cognizant that I was being judged by my appearance in some way, [00:14:30] and I didn't fully understand, right, all the details in the reports, but, like, I, I could feel it. And then one other moment that stands out to me is at IBM every year [00:14:40] they had this big conference called Lotusphere. I worked for Lotus. And they would have all of the developers go down to Florida and meet with clients, customers that were, you know, [00:14:50] using Lotus products. And I remember sitting in the big, you know, ballroom at IBM where they give out the gear that you have to wear, like, your [00:15:00] uniform you have to wear at this conference. All men's sizes, all men's shirts, all... Like, no women's sizes any- I'm, like, looking around. It's, like, [00:15:10] thousands of developers they're sending down to this conference, and we're only offered men's shirts to wear as our uniform. I was like, "You gotta be kidding [00:15:20] me." **Sali:** It's such a great example that... Like, we have so many examples of that throughout our experiences, right? Like, there are just so many cases in which women really aren't considered. Like, [00:15:30] it's... And it's still happening **Leah:** It's still happening. Yeah, I wanna get into that a little bit later and where you think we are sort of in this [00:15:40] spectrum of, of workforce and modernization. But, but let's go back to that moment where you said, "Fuck it, I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna start this company." [00:15:50] You did not have a background in design. You had no fashion experience, no manufacturing relationships. What did it feel like to you in that moment [00:16:00] to say, "I'm gonna go do this"? **Sali:** Oh, what did it feel like? It felt very exciting. It did not feel as daunting and as intimidating as [00:16:10] it should have. Yeah. Um, which, like, it- you're naive, right? Yes. I think I was so convinced of the end goal, and, like, I had such [00:16:20] conviction in this concept, and the opportunity to leverage the power of brand to really change the narrative and have an impact, um, and, and build [00:16:30] community and create connections that in, in my experience didn't exist and weren't happening. And, like, to do that through a physical product and rooted in a physical product, that felt like the [00:16:40] right way to create this sticky ecosystem that kept women coming back, that safely got them into the ecosystem to begin with, that was solving, you know, a very, like, [00:16:50] simple, straightforward problem, uh, uh, that, on s- the surface level. But, like, uh, by doing it in, like, a, a, a w- it, it w- by doing it in a way with, like, a much larger [00:17:00] goal. Um, I think the challenge is I came from, like, a really type A environment that was very, like, scheduled and very clear in [00:17:10] terms of, like, deliverables and expectations, and you have this infrastructure in place at a place like a Cisco, and you have all of these major functions. You have HR, you know, in place, and then you [00:17:20] enter entrepreneurship, and it's like the Wild, Wild West. And you're like, "Oh, wow," like, "I have men that to my face are gonna tell me that I'm just a pretty face and/or hit on me or ask me out to dinner," or like, [00:17:30] "I don't have any protections in this world in the way that I would have at a Cisco." Um, and then at... there's also, like, a real need to be a self-starter and create structure. [00:17:40] So, like, to go f- from such an extreme of, like, working around the clock in a tech environment where, like, the expectation is that you're always on and you're working across time zones into [00:17:50] you build your own schedule, um, I just started, I just started setting m- meetings and, like, touchpoints with people that I respected a lot to ensure that I was, like, moving things [00:18:00] forward, um, and sort of as a forcing function for me and accountability for me. Um, but it was a pretty stark change, for sure. **Leah:** Yeah. And you've talked [00:18:10] about, you know, the experience of pitching VCs, that you went in to pitch a top-tier VC who told you utility doesn't belong in women's clothing. [00:18:20] Um, you know, I think as founders, female founders, we've had those experiences, shared experiences before. I'm curious, when it happened to you, when you're [00:18:30] sitting in that room, what do you think, feel, do? Of course, there's anger, right? But, like, how do you process it in the moment, and, like, how do you [00:18:40] react to that? **Sali:** Oh, well, uh, I think this probably is partially my personality and partially my background, but I'm very good in any moment [00:18:50] just absorbing really bad information, bad news. I just go to a calm place, and I can be very kind, and I don't fully process it until after the fact. I can also be direct if I need to [00:19:00] be. Um, this particular feedback was over email, so that helped. Um- But, uh, I- Right, yes ... but we- Oh my **Leah:** God ... **Sali:** we, [00:19:10] it was through a very reputable venture capitalist, uh, partner at this firm wrote this email, and it, it was two, it was a [00:19:20] two-part feedback. One was, "We've seen so many pitches for women's work wear," like Snooze Fest, essentially. And my f- my feedback to that is, "Of course you have because women [00:19:30] are ir- like, hate this ca- like, they hate the offering. There's a business opportunity. When you see a lot of pitches around a s- a similar concept, that means there's a business opportunity and no one's quite [00:19:40] figured it out yet." And I felt com- I felt, like, real belief in my vision for the product and the brand and this, like, idea, [00:19:50] and I felt that it was novel compared to what I'd seen. Two was, um, "Utility doesn't belong in women's clothing," and to me, that was so reinforcing in terms of wh- h- where [00:20:00] we were and how we got there, which was this is a man, this is a white man, this is a man who's like, you know, the system has been made for him, and he's not listening to the [00:20:10] actual consumer of this product. And that's what's happening in fashion, is that as you move up, while fashion has a num- like, a lot of women that are, you know, in the workforce, as you move up, it's [00:20:20] typically you see more and more men, as you do in most industries, and they're the ones making the decisions. And to me, uh, because I'm the consumer of what I wanted to build, it was like, [00:20:30] no, no, women hate this experience, and how meme-able is like, "Oh, it has pockets, and we want pockets, and pockets, pockets, pockets." Like- ... just start there as the baseline, you [00:20:40] know? Um- Yeah, seriously ... so I put that, I put that in a folder that I, like, still go back to, my inspire folder. **Leah:** So funny. Well, from there, you end up creating your own [00:20:50] fundraising process because you talk about the fact that the existing system, and I believe this as well, was not built for women. Um, I love this because it's such a bold move. It is a [00:21:00] breaking precedent move, right? I'm not gonna play by your rules. Can you talk us through what that process actually looked like and what you did differently? **Sali:** Yeah. Uh, I [00:21:10] think in general, like, early days, I was, it was... I talk about how, like, confident I am as a person. It's very lonely and isolating, and you're so vulnerable when you're starting a company, and that's [00:21:20] a whole experience in and of itself. But I think when you're a woman, you p- everyone, like, shows up to try and take your power. Everyone shows up to try and tell you, like, what to do and what not to do, and, like, w- you [00:21:30] know. What you have to recognize is that- And like this is not a world that was made for women. Like we are, we are [00:21:40] entering into a system where 2% of venture funding goes to female founders. And so if you're playing by the rules, like good luck, because it's, it, you're, women are getting [00:21:50] pennies like i- in funding. And so, um, I think so much of my early days was learning about people. I mean, still, I [00:22:00] think the thing that I've learned the most is people, um, on this journey, and people in every as- like e- every aspect of, of what we're doing. Um, but in terms of fundraising, I was like, "This doesn't [00:22:10] work for me, so like what would work for me?" And so my immediate focus became on b- building a cap table with values-aligned [00:22:20] individuals, people that, um, I felt could really understand what we're building, and doing it in a way that like worked for me. And so, um, and [00:22:30] then and making progress like along the way. So as I was fundraising, it's like I've gotta, I've gotta move this business forward. And this, I'm sure, resonates with you. I had to do so much before I even got my first [00:22:40] check compared to... There was a, there was a brand that started, same category, by two tech guys the same week that got funded by Kleiner Perkins, and Andreessen Horowitz, [00:22:50] and, you know, like, uh, Sequoia. They just got like a million and a half in a week to start this apparel brand they didn't even know what they were building, and it took me a year and a half to get my first like funding cobbled [00:23:00] together, and it was less than that. Um, so I don't know that it's perfect, but I've just really like leaned into what works for me, which is really family offices and values-aligned [00:23:10] invi- individuals. **Leah:** Yeah. No, I love that. I mean, you, you... The system is rigged. I, I believe that. I've seen it as a founder as well. I see it as [00:23:20] an investor on the investing side too, right? But I remember meeting you. I remember you coming into the Fuel office, Chris and I meeting with you. And like we [00:23:30] wouldn't normally do an apparel brand. Like we were very software, tech focused. But I remember the pitch feeling so different, and it [00:23:40] really was about the vision, the values, the impact, the community, the ecosystem. And Chris and I, after you left, we're like, "Whoa, this is such a different approach [00:23:50] to, to apparel, to women's workwear." Like we're not investing in an apparel company. We're like investing in an ecosystem and a movement here. So I [00:24:00] think you were so far ahead of your time as well because now it's all about, right, the influencer marketing and all of this ecosystem building. But I- you had that [00:24:10] inclination from early on. Was that just part of your instinct and DNA around what you were building? And like, I don't know, how has that evolved over time? [00:24:20] **Sali:** I would say, um, that has been the goal since the... I always mess this up if it's outset or onset. It's one of the two. Um, but that's been the goal.[00:24:30] That's been the goal. I'll just commit to one. That's been the goal since the, uh, outset, has been to build a world. Like, it, it is so much about world b- [00:24:40] building and it's so much about, um, the mission of what we're building. And I do love the product, and I do, like I, I've, I [00:24:50] am like the influencer of what we're building, you know? But I'm not by any means an actual technical influencer. Um, but I think since early days that that has [00:25:00] been what's been very clear to me is what I'm building. Um, I did... If I had to, like, compare it to another company, I think I was really influenced by Lululemon and how [00:25:10] they built this world, and, like, how they built this transformational experience through their product, and how they surprised and delighted through product that we've had forever. But, like, they just... It [00:25:20] was nuanced in a way that felt so special. Um, and then they had yoga in stores, which was very transformational. So I think I was really inspired by the experience that they were offering. [00:25:30] Um, and I was so motivated by th- the fact that so many people were telling me that we'd achieved gender equity. We were gonna have our first [00:25:40] female president, like, when I first started talking to people, and everyone was convinced of that. Um, so I was really, really fueled by what I saw as [00:25:50] such a white space in terms of how we're talking about women and professional women, and how it's all like, it's all just, like, talking down to them or trying to name this thing. And I'm like, "No, [00:26:00] I, I see women like you. I see all of these powerful, professional, incredible women that day in, day out are, like, just showing up and [00:26:10] unapologetic and so amazing, and we're pretty siloed." And I think there's so much opportunity for, like, a brand to come in and connect the dots in a way that [00:26:20] is additive and moves the needle and inspires the next generation and inspires this, like... I- inspires women writ large. And so I think that that has been... [00:26:30] Like, that's the reason that I'm doing this. Uh, you, y- I think you two really understood it too in a way that most people didn't, and the irony is that you're [00:26:40] right. I was slightly ahead, but now it's what we're benefiting from, and it's now, it's now what every brand desires to have. But if you don't start with that vision, it's very hard to [00:26:50] course-correct for it and go backwards. And so I think that we've really created this world, and in the last 18 to 24 months, we've just seen growth in a way that we've never experienced. And so, um, it's [00:27:00] a long game, and it's, it's a time investment for sure to get here. **Leah:** Yeah, I mean, you absolutely did it authentically from the beginning. [00:27:10] And I mean, you just talked about how, you know, you were starved for cash. You were given different amounts of cash than others in the field. Can you talk a little bit about, um, [00:27:20] maybe some of the advantages of having to be more scrappy, more intentional? 'Cause I felt that way too with TaskRabbit, and in some ways I think it kinda fueled the [00:27:30] strategy and, like, sharpened what we deliver. **Sali:** Yeah, it, it is, it has been such a blessing, I think, to have to be scrappy since day one. It, [00:27:40] um, early days I would've told you that, like, it's all part of the strategy, but it wasn't really. It was certainly s- it was certainly um, a result of al- [00:27:50] being chronically underfunded. Um, and so I, I naturally am very scrappy, but I think that it was this forcing function and, like, it really, really... We've been so [00:28:00] intentional with every s- penny that we've spent, every dollar that we've spent, because it's so valuable to us and, like, every sale matters. Everything matters so much. Um- Mm-hmm ... and I [00:28:10] think because of that, it has forced us to be laser-focused in terms of, like, what we're building, and also moving slower because we didn't, we [00:28:20] weren't able to just throw cash at all of these different experiments. I came from a class of founders that were really well-funded in the consumer space [00:28:30] because it became, like, really popular in the, like, 2015, 20, to 2018 period. Um, everyone wanted to participate in consumer 'cause the upside's quite large when you get it right. [00:28:40] But a lot of my peer group were overfunded, and they just spent all that money and were never able to really make a compelling business, and they bought customers in a way that was not [00:28:50] sticky, and they paid more than the customer was, like, even, you know, wor- like, bringing to them. Like, they weren't making money on their first purchase. Um, and so I think [00:29:00] we have benefited from having to be really smart with how we've spent, um, and have not been wasteful. **Leah:** Yeah. And I, I hear this particularly from women [00:29:10] over and over and over again, right? I was, uh, chatting with Christina Tosi from Milk Bar, and she, same thing. She's like, "The constraints that I had that were [00:29:20] imposed on my business actually were the things that spawn the innovation, that spawn the sharpness," right? So, you know, sometimes it feels [00:29:30] bad to, to not have the same resources and things, but you know, if you can kind of reframe that and work through it, I think it can be really powerful. **Sali:** I [00:29:40] agree with that. I do think there's another side of the coin, though, where it is so frustrating. Like, I have, I have reached... I reached a point where I could tell you, like, the [00:29:50] unit economics of the business and how to scale it and where I would deploy capital, um, way before it was funded, and, like, probably still, you know? Um, we're, like, in a much [00:30:00] better position now, but it's like this is very compelling and l- and it is about how much capital I have for how, like, speed of distribution and speed of [00:30:10] acquisition, and at this point it's just math. **Leah:** Yep. Yep. I f- I feel that too. I feel that too. So, Arjan is 10 years [00:30:20] old this fall, which is incredible because, I mean, you have created a category, and most founders don't ever reach that [00:30:30] 10-year mark, right? It's, like, past the messy middle. I remember hitting 10 years, and I, you know, ended up selling TaskRabbit, um, feeling very burnt out. It was a very [00:30:40] long journey. Um, you know, so I get it. I get where you're at. Um, but y- you went through COVID. I mean, I think the [00:30:50] COVID part of your story is just absolutely remarkable. Can you talk about how you saw the writing on the wall, how [00:31:00] you ended up closing all the stores, and then you came out with this incredible campaign in the middle of COVID that was so, so powerful? **Sali:** Yeah. [00:31:10] So I was eight, eight and a half months pregnant when COVID hit March 2020. Um, Dave, my husband, had [00:31:20] just left Apple because we had been looking for this role in marketing for years, and I was living with the best candidate, you know, and finally just accepted, like, "Maybe, [00:31:30] maybe you're the one for the job. Let's do it. Let's go all in." And so that was our personal situation at the time, and we had four stores, and business was booming. Consumer was doing so well early [00:31:40] 2020, and we were gonna go out and raise our series A, and it was like, "Let's go." And we were so lucky because of our [00:31:50] personal situation that we had to think a l- in a little... A- and I also probably see, like, I'm – I see the – I have a bit more vision than maybe, [00:32:00] um- Others? I don't know. Like, that's like one of my skills of like- Do you **Leah:** have a crystal ball? I **Sali:** just, I- Yeah ... saw around the corner in a way that people were not seeing. People were putting up signs of like- [00:32:10] Yeah ... "In two weeks we'll reopen." I was like, "That's not... No." And so we went on these- Yeah ... long walks, and we were like, "What should we do? And, like, how extreme should our response be?" And we ended up being very extreme. It was like, [00:32:20] "Let's close every store. Let's furlough our store teams." It was awful. It was so emotional. It was so grueling, 'cause you have formed these relationships. You've invested in growth and, like, growing [00:32:30] this thing with these people. You have, like, op- You've been to these store opening. Like, everything that you do is so emotional as a founder and, like, driven by passion. Um, we stopped [00:32:40] production. We just stopped everything. And because we were aggressive and proactive, we were allowed to get out of our leases. There were so many friends that I have that were not able to [00:32:50] do that. So, like, that in and of itself was such a victory, and we were able to just go c- completely lean and, um, try and get more information. So what we did was, [00:33:00] like, pause and try and gather information before we did anything else. And because of that, um, we bought time. And then we, um... And this is the benefit of [00:33:10] being forced to fundraise in the way that I was. I had a cap table of incredible people, such as you, like you and Chris. But I had, like, a cap table full of people that recognized how challenging this moment in [00:33:20] time was. And the decision was, do we fold or do we survive? And my thesis was, if we can, if we can survive this, the opportunity won't be any [00:33:30] bigger... will be much bigger bec- for two reasons. One, I've learned so much from all the mistakes that I've made the last couple of years. And two, the timing. Like, people are gonna come out of COVID [00:33:40] and it, and we're gonna be ready to meet them in that moment. And, um, and that ended up being the calculation that we made is let's survive. And we had [00:33:50] this hot pink suit that we had designed with Planned Parenthood. We were gonna do a partnership with Planned Parenthood. **Leah:** Okay. **Sali:** Okay. We pulled out of that, and w- so we had just this, tons of hot pink suits. That was [00:34:00] the one product that we had made. And we decided to do this, um, partnership. We reached out to Supermajority, a voting organization. In September, we reached [00:34:10] out. In October of 2020, we launched this campaign. It ended up being lightning in a bottle. It had... It broke through in a way that, like, you dream [00:34:20] of and you p- you plan for, but, like, you can't, you can't plan a viral campaign. Like, you have to, you know- Plan something and pray that it goes this way. But it ended up we've, [00:34:30] we've sold out of that suit in less than 24 hours. It made our year. It, like, gave me the- Made **Leah:** your year year. Made our year. It made your year in one day. Made our year. One day. In 24 hours. [00:34:40] I mean- It, it, it, it **Sali:** blew- Absolutely incredible it was crazy. At the height of a pandemic, we sold through all of these hot pink suits. **Leah:** Yeah, yeah. It- Well, that speaks- And it was energy ... yeah, it was [00:34:50] energy. It speaks to the moment, too, the moment in time as well, right? It, it wasn't about the suit and the apparel. Again, it's about the story, the mission, the [00:35:00] ecosystem. Like, that's how you build a brand and a business. Yes. **Sali:** Yeah. Yeah. It was really, it was really what we needed, and then come 2021, it was, um, we saw [00:35:10] cities starting to come back online. Suiting started trending, which always benefits our business. Um, and we've really been catching up with demand ever since, but we got really lucky because, um, we did have [00:35:20] support through COVID from our investors, um, and, and everyone sort of co-signed this decision, I would say, to, to survive. **Leah:** To [00:35:30] survive and now you thrive. So you've talked about your amazing creative director, who by your own description is delivering on a vision you couldn't have imagined. Can you talk to [00:35:40] me about what it took to find the right creative partner for you and for Argent? **Sali:** I think that's been the hardest part of the business. Um, uh, early days, uh, I [00:35:50] was, it was, I was dismissed both by employees and agencies and, like, everyone that we touched because I'm just not fashion. I just don't get it, you know? And so you internalize that [00:36:00] feedback a little bit, and then you give up your power, and you give up creative control in areas of the business that I really shouldn't have because they didn't align with my vision. And so I've really come into [00:36:10] that over time. What I've known since, like, the beginning is that the reason that businesses that have pursued, [00:36:20] you know, this categor- category have not been successful is because they're emulating what we already have, and they're oftentimes stepping into that design role, which is a skillset I [00:36:30] just, like, very obviously do not possess. And I hold creatives in such high regard, and I hold fashion designers in such high regard, and that's a career in and of itself. [00:36:40] These are people who start sewing at the age of two or three, or is like, you know, they can walk, they can sew. And, um, that's such a complimentary skillset and [00:36:50] so important to what I saw Argent becoming. And so I've always prioritized having a creative counterpart, and that's taken time for that [00:37:00] deliverable to match what I was hoping. And that's been the biggest change for Argent, has been the evolution of the product, and it's still, we still [00:37:10] keep improving. I would say, like, fall is gonna be my favorite season we've ever done, and that's, I think that's entrepreneurship, is like you start somewhere and it's never gonna be perfect, and you just keep trying [00:37:20] to perfect it as much as possible, and you're just trying to move everything forward. And like, you know, great's the enemy of- perfect's the enemy of, enemy of good. Like, just, just get something and keep [00:37:30] evolving it. **Leah:** Yep. Yep. And you did. And now here we are, 10 years later. Um, you've been building this argument that fashion and mission belong [00:37:40] together. So I wanna talk about kinda the bigger picture and bigger impact here that you're having. Um, you've said that, you know, coming into this 10-year anniversary, that you wanna double down on your mission of [00:37:50] removing barriers for women. And, you know, we're at this moment in time in our culture and our conversation and our country that [00:38:00] gender equity feels like it's going backwards. So talk to me about what doubling down actually looks like for Argent and for you. **Sali:** Yeah. [00:38:10] So I think early days, I would sometimes question whether or not this was, like, the right outlet for, um, the mission side. Uh, like, my [00:38:20] belief system is so ingrained and, like, I, my cause is women. That's, like, what I wanna commit my life to. And so I think I questioned whether this was, like, the right vehicle with [00:38:30] which to do that at times because it does take time and we are iterating on a product, and we're trying to perpec- perfect a product. Fast-forward to the last couple of years, I [00:38:40] have seen this play out in a way that's, like, exceeded every, like, you know, dream of mine for the brand. I've watched incredible women do incredible work and show up in these [00:38:50] high-profile moments wearing Argent, and then sending feedback of, like, how great they l- felt, how great they looked, how great the feedback was that they got, [00:39:00] how important that armor was for them, and how important the community of Argent and what we stand for is to them. Uh, like recognizing that, oh, we're all going [00:39:10] through a lot of the same shit- And this is kind of by design. And, um, the more awareness that we can raise and the more, [00:39:20] like, resilience that we can offer, the, the better the outcome. And I've, I've seen us be able to really have an impact there, and that's very exciting to me. Um, [00:39:30] in terms of where we are, uh, the last few years have been really interesting, and people ask me about, like, politics a lot of times. For Argent, our filter is women. So there are things [00:39:40] that are happening that we don't speak out on in the world 'cause they don't feel like the right fit for us in terms of our platform. We're using our platform to, um, support women's [00:39:50] rights, and that's our filter, and that's very authentic to me. Um, and I would argue that we have over-corrected in the last few years, um, because of all of the [00:40:00] momentum surrounding the gender equity conversation. But what I've been really encouraged by is all of the women in our community that [00:40:10] are still showing up, that refuse to stop showing up, that are, um, taking on these [00:40:20] powerful roles and different, um, family roles. Like, the, it- it's like there's just this evolution in the conversation, and that's not going away, and it's not going back in the bag. And so to me, it's [00:40:30] like, no, like, it, while there's this overcorrection happening and everyone wants you to believe that, like, we're in this, like, bro society and that's what's winning, I actually think women have [00:40:40] so much power and now have a lot more awareness. And not to mention, there's this generational, um, wealth transfer that's happening. And so women, like, [00:40:50] control consumer spending. Women are fucking incredible, and we all know it. Um, and we're... I think we have more of a voice now, and there, like, just [00:41:00] all of these little data points give me such confidence in terms of where we're going. I just believe in women so deeply and them being, [00:41:10] like, necessary for our future, and there's data to support that as well. Like, we all know that when women are at the table and there's a diversity of opinions, it's a better outcome. We know that we're gonna improve [00:41:20] the GDP just by participating in the workforce. Like, there are all sorts of things that necessitate our participation in the workforce in some capacity, and there's a conversation happening around [00:41:30] motherhood and caregiving that's very positive. Like, that is very much the hardest job, and that should be categorized as a career. So all of that to say I feel positive and encouraged and [00:41:40] see a lot of great energy and momentum, and that will continue. Like, we'll see, we'll see a counterbalance to what we've seen in the last couple of years. **Leah:** Absolutely. And let's talk about [00:41:50] Gen Z, right? Because Gen Z is up and coming, and they love power dressing. So- They do love power dressing. So- yes, they do. So how are you [00:42:00] thinking about Gen Z and, you know, what it means to be able to meet this new generation and, you know, where Argent is right now? **Sali:** Yeah, Gen Z's so fascinating. So [00:42:10] love power dressing, and, um, I think have different expectations in terms of, like, gender. Um, we [00:42:20] have seen an appetite from Gen Z for content more than anything and community more than anything, and that's all I've wanted to build. So, like, if I had to segment out our [00:42:30] customer base, it's, um, there's the young professional, so it's your Gen Z consumer who's coming in for a black or a navy suit and, like, really getting mileage out of those pieces, [00:42:40] but so badly wants access to information, wants to listen to conversations like this, wants to understand what it is that, like, allowed Leah to build this company and sell [00:42:50] this company and have success. And, like, the more she can get, the happier she is, and so we see her say yes to every event, just, like, be so hungry. Um, our [00:43:00] core customer is a millennial who, you know, a millennial, Gen X, actually, who's, like, height of career, consuming the, all the product, coming back every season, but [00:43:10] also, like, consuming all the content and influential within the workplace. Um, and then we have a woman who, you know, is coming in just for a [00:43:20] colorful blazer but not really engaging as much with the content but does love the community and loves being a part of it. But that's the beauty, I think, of, like, what we've built, is these connections that didn't exist [00:43:30] before, cross-generational connections, cross-industry, cross-everything, across, like, geographical location. There's so much power in that, and that is what [00:43:40] I've been harnessing since day one because I didn't have those connections, and they're, they're so important. **Leah:** Yeah, I love it. I love it. I mean, I think the thread that I keep seeing coming [00:43:50] up in this conversation is you've always had this refusal to accept a false choice, like mission or profit, fashion or function, right, building or belonging.[00:44:00] Was that, it seems like it's just something that was always in your DNA, but was there a point that you had to, like, really reflect and say, "These are [00:44:10] false choices, and I'm going to think differently"? Or was it just always there? **Sali:** It's funny 'cause, like, I think that I don't, I don't go through that exercise. I think I more [00:44:20] so do, will do a postmortem where I'm like, "Did I make the wrong choice not to launch this wholesale partner? Did I make the wrong choice not to invest more in, like, [00:44:30] Facebook ads when there was an arbitrage opportunity?" There were certain decisions that I was, like, a little bit slower to make and/or was pretty unapologetic about, like really maniacal about [00:44:40] brand. Um, and so there are revenue trade-offs to that. I can now confidently say that all of those decisions were right and got the outcome that I [00:44:50] wanted. Um, I think what I have built, like, the thing that I would credit for what we've been able to build is authenticity and my unwillingness [00:45:00] to compromise on my belief in, like, what Argent is and who it's for and, um, not, not [00:45:10] making these, like, short-term choices and not doing things, um, that would undermine the brand. And they're not decisions that make sense, like, on [00:45:20] paper all the time. And now, like, I, I think the other thing I've learned is, like, everyone's, everyone's very reactive in this world, and, um, I think [00:45:30] that I've been looking ahead and looking around the corner since the beginning, and ironically, like, multiple times that has benefited us. So the first was with COVID when I was like... I mean, I [00:45:40] talked to reporters that were, that told me workwear is dead forever, what am I gonna do? And I just so, like, that I fundamentally disagreed with that, and that was right. Um, I believed in this, [00:45:50] like, this, uh, opportunity to build a world and an ecosystem that was so much more than just product, and that has now proven to be right. And the benefit is [00:46:00] now. It didn't happen early days, and so you have really hard periods of time 'cause you're like, "Why isn't the business bigger?" Like, "Why," you know, "W- was this wrong?" But now in the last, like, two, three years, it's like, [00:46:10] oh, like, this, it worked. It's working, and, like, let's go. Um, it's very exciting. **Leah:** Yeah, it is. So as you take a [00:46:20] step back, what's your advice for the woman right now who is maybe sitting at her desk at a company she didn't start, maybe feeling the same friction [00:46:30] that you and I both felt at IBM and Cisco, you know, who has an idea that keeps coming, coming back to her? What's your advice? **Sali:** Um, advice on an [00:46:40] i- as I, I have two, two pieces of advice. One on a, an idea is if you have conviction in your end goal, go for it. If you do not, don't start, 'cause it's [00:46:50] too hard. Like, the from A to Z is impossible, and you're gonna be challenged in ways that you can't even possibly imagine. Um, I think that [00:47:00] what women oftentimes do is give up power within these corporate environments in a way that's, um, that compromises their mental health and, [00:47:10] like, happiness. And to me, like, there is a level of confidence that comes from showing up and recognizing the value that you're bringing, and if it's not a fit, it's not a fit, and [00:47:20] being comfortable with that. Um, we just shouldn't show up unhappy to our workplace. So, like, that's my other piece is, like, don't get, don't get stuck as, like, seeing yourself as a cog in a [00:47:30] wheel and just being quiet and being deferential and not getting what you need, 'cause at the end of the day, it's your life. **Leah:** Yep. Yep. Well, you spent the last 10 years building a brand that tells [00:47:40] women that their work matters, and so does how they show up to do it. 20 years from now, what precedent do you want people to say that you [00:47:50] broke that nobody else had the nerve to? **Sali:** Oh. **Leah:** It's a big one. It's a big one. **Sali:** I don't know how to answer that in a, like [00:48:00] a, in a l- in a literal, straightforward way. I think I just wanna be seen as someone who Did what [00:48:10] I felt was right and did it unapologetically so, and gave permission for others to do the same. **Leah:** Love that. [00:48:20] I love that. We've talked a lot about women's economic power right now, how that's shifting. Do you think there's a opportunity that [00:48:30] people are overlooking right now that somebody could, should move on? **Sali:** I think the opportunity is, um [00:48:40] For women to s- and it's starting, I think, but to come together in ways that men historically have, but [00:48:50] t- and talking about money differently and recognizing their power around money. Um, I think the opportunity is around investment and recognizing that investment is an [00:49:00] opportunity to make more money. Um, it's an opportunity to live your values and to have a greater impact beyond yourself. Um, I think that, I [00:49:10] think for me it's about how we connect around money and the power that exists in that, because women do have a lot of influence, um, over the outcome. [00:49:20] **Leah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we talked a little bit about how women in the workforce has been shifting. In some ways it feels like we've gone backwards a little bit, but [00:49:30] you've, you've built through these cycles. What's your most honest version of the answer to the question: Are we closer to gender equity at [00:49:40] work than we were 10 years ago? **Sali:** Hmm. Yes and no. **Leah:** Mm-hmm. **Sali:** Um, I [00:49:50] think that There are some political outcomes that have emboldened really bad choices. But I think that [00:50:00] information, like, in the age of information, you just can't get away with the behavior that we would've seen 5, 10, 20 years ago, and that's good. Um, so [00:50:10] I think that, like, if I zoom out, yes. Like, the yes, yes is the larger percentage of my answer. Um, we've made progress, [00:50:20] and we'll continue making progress, and we'll continue optimizing for what's best. Uh, we don't optimize for what's best for human- humanity. We optimize for what's best [00:50:30] for the bottom line, and, uh, figuring out, you know, women's role and participation in the workforce and making them happy is best for the bottom line. And once we see that, then it's a [00:50:40] win-win. **Leah:** Yeah. Well, I know that there are founders listening right now that are in the messy middle. They're in year five, year six, year [00:50:50] seven, and they're probably questioning, like, "Do I keep going? Should I keep going? Should I keep building?" What do you want those founders to hear from [00:51:00] your story? **Sali:** It's hard, and like you could say this too. It's impossible. There are absolutely periods of time, days, weeks, months, years where you're like, "I'm out." Like, I [00:51:10] just... I will pay someone to take this off my hands. There are days where you, like- Yeah ... check out, and you just have to. Like, there, bad news comes in waves, and it all comes at once, and it can just [00:51:20] be so debilitating. And so understanding what gives you strength through that is, um, is pretty necessary. And for me, it's our customer base and [00:51:30] our clients. Like, I will just go to them. I'll even go to the store if I'm having a bad day and be reminded of how important what we're doing is on an individual level, and how, like, we do [00:51:40] have to keep going 'cause there's an audience there that expects me to keep going, and, like, women deserve this. Um, I also think, like- It is helpful [00:51:50] to qualify, like, what walking away looks like too, 'cause, like, you don't wanna get stuck in something that isn't progressing and isn't working, and I think women tend to hold onto things [00:52:00] that are failing longer. So, and I think, like, giving yourself permission to, to, to quit. Like, I, I think it could go either way. **Leah:** Right. Be [00:52:10] honest with yourself and with the data, right, and with the numbers. And if you pivot, quit, do something else, like, that's okay too, right? **Sali:** Agree. **Leah:** Yeah. **Sali:** Agree. **Leah:** Yeah. **Sali:** But the, but the [00:52:20] messy middle is brutal. Like, we've all been there. It is brutal. And it's all- Yeah just building is hard. I mean, now is- Yeah ... still hard, and we're much bigger, and it's like we have a much bigger team. It's, but it's like bigger [00:52:30] company and bigger problems, I guess. And- **Leah:** Yes. **Sali:** Yeah ... um, it's just never easy. It's always kind of a shit show, and you're just like you're, you're doing it, you know? **Leah:** [00:52:40] Yes. You are doing it. You are doing it, Sally. Um, so I'm so excited about where Argent is. Happy 10-year anniversary. I mean, [00:52:50] your resilience, your vision, the mission, everything, it's just been so exciting to be a part of and so amazing to watch your journey. So thank you. **Sali:** Thank [00:53:00] you. I, I just do have to take this moment to plug you and Chris and just how, um, incredible you both have been on this journey. It means more than I [00:53:10] think I think it's, like, it's hard to articulate 'cause they're just... It's such a grueling process, and to have people like you believe in it and be supportive in the way that you [00:53:20] have been means just everything. Um, so thank you. **Leah:** Well, it's a total privilege. It is a total privilege to be able to support you, [00:53:30] so thank **Sali:** you. Thank **Leah:** you. That was Sally Christensen, a founder who didn't just build a workwear brand. She challenged the assumption that fashion and feminist conviction [00:53:40] can't share a balance sheet. From a farm in South Carolina, through the bazaars of Turkey, through a banking crash, and a tech career, and a venture ecosystem that told her [00:53:50] utility didn't belong in women's clothing, Sally's story is really about one thing: the refusal to accept a false choice. She [00:54:00] reminds us that the most durable companies are built from genuine personal frustration, that there's no hack for brand-building, no shortcut around the decade of [00:54:10] just showing up, and that when you build a business for a community that has been chronically underserved, you don't just have customers. You have advocates who will carry the [00:54:20] brand through a pandemic, through a cultural movement, and through every cycle the fashion industry can throw at you. The question she keeps asking, and what I wanna [00:54:30] leave you with, is who else is being ignored? What other working woman in what other industry is buying things designed by people [00:54:40] who don't understand her life? Who else is waiting for someone to build the Argent of their world? Because that's the thing about breaking precedents. Once Sally [00:54:50] showed it was possible, the number of precedents left to break only gets bigger. If you know someone who's rewriting the rules in their industry, I wanna hear their [00:55:00] story. You can send me a note on my website, breakingprecedent.com. Until next time, I'm Leah Sullivan.