Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Director, Compliance Operations: Between a Rock and a Regulator

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Director, Compliance Operations: Between a Rock and a Regulator · Roast the Post Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hey, everybody.
0:00
SPEAKER_01: We're here again with another episode of Roast the Post and
0:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm bringing it to the table this week.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: It's my turn this week.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: This is a job ad which is
0:13
SPEAKER_01: from the same company as another job ad that we roasted a few weeks ago.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: So Jen, this is from the financial services firm that
0:25
SPEAKER_01: had the loan consultant job.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: So, like we talked about in that episode, it
0:29
SPEAKER_01: would be kind of interesting to find something from their corporate HQ.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: And I
0:33
SPEAKER_01: set a filter.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Lo and behold, I saw something from their corporate HQ, or at
0:37
SPEAKER_01: least one of their corporate offices, not the head office.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, what really
0:44
SPEAKER_01: struck me with this ad is that there's a dual reporting structure in the mix
0:50
SPEAKER_01: here.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about dual reporting structures before.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: So this is
0:55
SPEAKER_01: for a Director of Compliance Operations role.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: It's not in, you know, the senior
1:01
SPEAKER_01: leadership of this organization but it's a pretty serious job.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: You know there's
1:05
SPEAKER_01: a lot of importance attached to it and it's fairly up the hierarchy
1:10
SPEAKER_01: within the organization.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: It's got a dual reporting structure.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: So this person is
1:15
SPEAKER_01: going to be reporting to the CCO or Chief Commercial Officer and the CAMLO.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: I
1:21
SPEAKER_01: had to look up what CAMLO is because I'd never heard that acronym before.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: It's
1:26
SPEAKER_01: the Chief Anti-Money Laundering Officer.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: So, this person is reporting to the senior leadership person whose job it is
1:37
SPEAKER_01: to make the firm more money and the person whose job it is to be more picky
1:44
SPEAKER_01: about whose money they take.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: I think you can see where I'm going
1:46
SPEAKER_00: here.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: And at first
1:49
SPEAKER_01: there's some tension.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: When you said CAMLO, I'm like, is he
1:54
SPEAKER_00: trying to say Camelot?
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And why would it be Camelot?
1:57
SPEAKER_00: There were so many questions
1:58
SPEAKER_00: going through my mind.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Can you remind me what the CCO is that the Chief
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Compliance Officer?
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Chief Commercial Officer.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Chief
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Commercial Officer.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: So Chief Commercial Officer in organizations
2:09
SPEAKER_01: that are kind of structured like this.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Tons of organizations have
2:12
SPEAKER_01: them.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: the Chief Commercial Officer, their job really is to figure out how to
2:19
SPEAKER_01: monetize what the organization does.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: So, this person's job is all about
2:24
SPEAKER_01: making money.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And the CAMLO, Chief Anti-Money Laundering Officer,
2:30
SPEAKER_01: their job is really to say no to money that comes from kind of dodgy sources.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: So I found this particularly interesting and that's why I
2:39
SPEAKER_01: brought it to the table because one side's going to be pushing for kind of
2:43
SPEAKER_01: blurry lines on making money and the other side's going to be pushing for
2:48
SPEAKER_01: much much sharper lines on what you can and cannot do.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be a
2:52
SPEAKER_01: tension there.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: So that sets the stage for this week.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: We'll start off as usual folks with the roasty profile.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: So the job title is
3:03
SPEAKER_01: Director, Compliance Operations.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: They're going to be reporting to both the CCO
3:08
SPEAKER_01: and the CAMLO in a dual reporting structure.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Company size is 1,001 to 5,000
3:14
SPEAKER_01: people.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: The industry that they're in is in financial services.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: What do they do?
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, personal loans, home improvement loans, debt consolidation loans,
3:24
SPEAKER_01: mortgages, consumer financing, automobile lending,
3:29
SPEAKER_01: retail point of sale financing.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: This is really an alternative lending entity.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of an alt bank in Canada.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: They do pretty much everything other
3:39
SPEAKER_01: than consumer depositor accounts.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Their head office is in Montreal, Quebec here
3:45
SPEAKER_01: in Canada.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: This job is in the Toronto, Ontario, Canada office.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And the
3:50
SPEAKER_01: organization operates coast to coast in Canada.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: The job is full-time, permanent,
3:57
SPEAKER_01: and on-site five days a week.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Now, we'll start with the structure of
4:03
SPEAKER_01: the job ad.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: So, this job ad has a number of sections.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: The first one is a "Who We
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Are" section.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Then, there's an About the Role section.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: There's a "Job
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Responsibilities" section and that's broken down into a number of
4:22
SPEAKER_01: subsections.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: The first of which is "Oversight of the Compliance Operations
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Team", "Compliance Assessments", "Internal and External Reviews",
4:32
SPEAKER_01: "Compliance Technology", "Financial Crime Systems".
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Then there's another section outside of that called "What We're Looking For".
4:43
SPEAKER_01: There's another section called "What You'll Love About Working Here".
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Another section called "What You Can Expect— Pay and Process".
4:55
SPEAKER_01: And that wraps up the structure of the
4:58
SPEAKER_01: job posting.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: So what we're going to do is...
5:00
SPEAKER_01: I've read through this job
5:01
SPEAKER_01: posting because I'm hosting this week.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Jen has not seen this job posting yet.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: We're going to go into some of the things that I found kind of interesting about the
5:11
SPEAKER_01: job posting and chat about them for a little bit.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Then we'll get into
5:15
SPEAKER_01: scoring.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Jen and I will get into salary guessing, I should say.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Jen will guess what she thinks the salary is going to be for this role.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: You
5:22
SPEAKER_01: know, just to put her on the hot seat.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: We'll take a short break so that Jen can
5:26
SPEAKER_01: read the job posting.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Then we'll get into more of the detailed discussion
5:29
SPEAKER_01: around things that we both extracted from the job and we'll wrap up with a
5:34
SPEAKER_01: scoring of the job.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: As always, we're going to put a link to the full job post
5:38
SPEAKER_01: in the show notes so that you can read along if you want to.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: That'll be on the
5:42
SPEAKER_01: episode page.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Jen, are you ready to roast this post?
5:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm ready.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Alright.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: So, the the first
5:50
SPEAKER_01: thing I wanted to kind of bring up, and this is kind of a contextual note for
5:54
SPEAKER_01: the folks at home... in the "Who We Are" section, one part that stood out for
6:01
SPEAKER_01: me is the following.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: In 2024, subsidiary, subsidiary,
6:06
SPEAKER_01: and subsidiary became part of the company family of brands alongside
6:15
SPEAKER_01: company, subsidiary, and subsidiary.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: So, what I wanted to highlight here is
6:19
SPEAKER_01: that the past couple of years, this organization has been on an acquisition
6:23
SPEAKER_01: spree.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: They've been buying up other companies in their kind of industry,
6:27
SPEAKER_01: whether they're directly competing or not.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: This is now a house of brands kind
6:32
SPEAKER_01: of financial organization.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: So kind of keep that in the back of your mind as
6:35
SPEAKER_01: we're going through.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Now the first part that I want to read out and talk about
6:41
SPEAKER_01: with you Jen is pretty much the entire About the Role section.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So it reads reporting to the CCO and CAMLO as part of corporate compliance.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: The mandate of the position is to support the CCO and CAMLO, and
7:01
SPEAKER_01: deputy CCO and CAMLO to 1) implement an effective enterprise-wide control
7:06
SPEAKER_01: framework to mitigate compliance risk which is designed to meet the company's
7:11
SPEAKER_01: legislative and regulatory requirements.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: 2) promote a sound compliance culture
7:18
SPEAKER_01: and 3) report to senior management and risk committee of the board.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Additionally, responsible for establishing high standards of business
7:27
SPEAKER_01: conduct and ethical behaviour and for ensuring that internal controls are
7:33
SPEAKER_01: established to meet ongoing compliance with the company's code of conduct and
7:37
SPEAKER_01: other internal requirements.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: So, the first thing that kind of stood out
7:42
SPEAKER_01: with that for me, Jen, and I kind of want you to comment on it is that that
7:47
SPEAKER_01: dual reporting structure again.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, this person's going to be directly
7:51
SPEAKER_01: responsible to both the Chief Commercial Officer and the CAMLO, but we also see in
7:57
SPEAKER_01: here that they're supporting the Deputy CCO and Deputy CAMLO and they're
8:04
SPEAKER_01: really in charge of a whole range of kind of important
8:11
SPEAKER_01: regulatory compliance type stuff.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that in that structure there
8:17
SPEAKER_01: are systemic things which will make their job a little bit more difficult?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: I absolutely do.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Right off the bat, I'm I'm wondering, you know, these deputies,
8:28
SPEAKER_00: so both of those roles that they this this person reports into, they both have
8:34
SPEAKER_00: their own deputy version of the role.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think that
8:38
SPEAKER_00: there already my brain is trying to map like what an escalation path would look
8:44
SPEAKER_00: like, what feedback and performance management would look like for this
8:50
SPEAKER_00: role.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Is it to the deputies and if so which one?
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Is it to the CAMLO or the
8:57
SPEAKER_00: CCO?
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Can they can they go directly to those?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean they report to those people.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: I just feel like it's going to be
9:07
SPEAKER_00: questionable whether or not those deputy roles are going to buffer.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Are they
9:12
SPEAKER_00: going to be a blocker, or are they going to support this role in in
9:18
SPEAKER_00: accessing the CAMLO and the CCO?
9:22
SPEAKER_00: It seems really
9:23
SPEAKER_00: an odd structure to me.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: If anything, maybe the role should be reporting to
9:28
SPEAKER_00: the deputies.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: But I don't...
9:31
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Another another thing that kind of stood out for me related to what you
9:38
SPEAKER_01: said is, like, this person who their job is to manage the operations of the
9:45
SPEAKER_01: regulatory compliance group.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Where do their allegiances lie
9:50
SPEAKER_01: if there's a really serious problem?
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Do they depend on the commercial
9:54
SPEAKER_01: arm of the organization to kind of sort stuff out?
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Or do they
9:59
SPEAKER_01: depend on the regulatory side of the organization if they need to sort stuff
10:03
SPEAKER_01: out, and, like, which which mommy do you run to when you have a problem with the
10:07
SPEAKER_01: other one?
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Like how does that all work?
10:09
SPEAKER_01: That's weird, right?
10:09
SPEAKER_00: That is weird.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: And you made me think too of, and I mentioned it a little
10:13
SPEAKER_00: bit, but like who ultimately like when you have dual
10:17
SPEAKER_00: reporting structures ultimately one person has to have that final say.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: They
10:24
SPEAKER_00: absolutely must.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: We talked about this before when we were designing a
10:27
SPEAKER_00: role for my organization when we discussed final decision-making
10:31
SPEAKER_00: authority.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Choosing the final candidate should like lies with we
10:36
SPEAKER_00: should we should name who that person is ultimately because it's always going to
10:41
SPEAKER_00: be one person.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting to me... yeah... what what if one of them thinks
10:47
SPEAKER_00: this person is doing a great job and the other one doesn't and how does that get
10:53
SPEAKER_00: sorted?
10:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and friction.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if that that friction or that tension is an inherent
11:02
SPEAKER_01: part of the system.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Because there's definitely going to be a back
11:06
SPEAKER_01: and forth between making money and making money the right way, as far as
11:11
SPEAKER_01: the regulatory kind of side of it goes.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: But what happens when it
11:15
SPEAKER_01: comes time for this person to sit down for their annual performance review and
11:21
SPEAKER_01: potentially there's, you know, a raise or money attached to that?
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And what
11:25
SPEAKER_01: if they've been kind of like swatting the hand of the commercial
11:29
SPEAKER_01: part of the organization a little bit more than they would like?
11:32
SPEAKER_01: How do
11:32
SPEAKER_01: they get penalized in their performance review for that?
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And does their raise or
11:36
SPEAKER_01: bonus become smaller or something?
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Is that a risk?
11:40
SPEAKER_01: It's something I'd be
11:40
SPEAKER_01: thinking about.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And what I can say though, and if I remember correctly,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: both of us had rated the job posting from this company that we've roasted
11:50
SPEAKER_00: before pretty high.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: We did because of the level of detail, because
11:57
SPEAKER_00: of the authenticity of the job posting to the role itself.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And so what
12:04
SPEAKER_00: I can say is... this is why we want to see the reporting structure in the job
12:09
SPEAKER_00: postings.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: It's exactly this because then the candidate can think to themselves,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: well, how will this work?
12:15
SPEAKER_00: And then they can prepare when they're
12:16
SPEAKER_00: interviewing for the role.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: These would be phenomenal questions to bring to the
12:19
SPEAKER_00: table during an interview.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: I can tell you right now that... there is no
12:24
SPEAKER_00: world in which I would apply for a job like this because it would be way too
12:29
SPEAKER_00: complicated for all the reasons that we are listing.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: It would be really, really
12:35
SPEAKER_00: challenging.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: It's hard enough to manage one manager's emotions and the
12:42
SPEAKER_00: mental load that you have to take on.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Do that for two, and maybe even four, because
12:47
SPEAKER_00: it sounds like there are more people involved.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: We talk a lot
12:54
SPEAKER_00: about having to manage up and this, if you're going to have to do it in this
12:58
SPEAKER_00: job, good luck to you.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: But again, really grateful that they're making that clear
13:01
SPEAKER_00: so people can make informed decisions.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And that's what it's all about.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: That's
13:04
SPEAKER_00: what we're trying to do here is help people to understand how to make
13:09
SPEAKER_00: the best, most informed decision when they're applying for these roles.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of another thing to throw into the
13:17
SPEAKER_01: mix here.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: One part that I highlighted in the job responsibilities section.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: There were a couple of bullet points that this person will be responsible for
13:27
SPEAKER_01: that relate to what we're talking about.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: The first is the responsibility to
13:32
SPEAKER_01: generate metrics and analysis to support board management and internal compliance
13:37
SPEAKER_01: reporting associated to compliance operations activities.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's not just
13:43
SPEAKER_01: the CCO and the CAMLO and the deputies that this person's work
13:48
SPEAKER_01: directly supports and impacts.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: It's also the board of directors and senior
13:52
SPEAKER_01: management.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Senior management in this context probably means like the CEO
13:57
SPEAKER_01: and other C-Suite executives.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: So like already this is kind of an an
14:01
SPEAKER_01: escalation of the importance here and the dual reporting thing I think maybe
14:06
SPEAKER_01: it kind of makes a little bit more sense in that context.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: But if you're reading
14:10
SPEAKER_01: this bullet point especially right after the others it paints this picture of oh
14:15
SPEAKER_01: boy the stakes are going to be really big for your work.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: How are you going to
14:20
SPEAKER_01: deal with that?
14:21
SPEAKER_00: This sounds like a very serious and critical role.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Anytime you have to do kind of board presentations, like you said, things
14:31
SPEAKER_00: like that, the stakes are higher, everyone who's involved with that.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: It
14:36
SPEAKER_00: also brings me back to the reporting structure and makes me wonder why
14:40
SPEAKER_00: they they must have...
14:41
SPEAKER_00: I assume they have a reason for this.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And my biggest question
14:46
SPEAKER_00: right now is why why do they have this dual reporting structure?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to wonder to yourself... if you step back and take a
14:54
SPEAKER_01: look at the bigger picture and think about this.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So this person is the
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Director of Compliance Operations.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Why are they reporting to the commercial
15:04
SPEAKER_01: arm of the company at all?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't there be an
15:08
SPEAKER_01: arms length between the commercial arm and the compliance arm?
15:13
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're trying something new.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Because when you were reading at the
15:17
SPEAKER_00: beginning, I thought to myself, well, it makes sense for them to report
15:21
SPEAKER_00: into the CAMLO role.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: But it's the commercial side that I'm questioning.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: So maybe they're trying
15:27
SPEAKER_00: something new.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've tried in the past, it didn't work.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: There's some
15:30
SPEAKER_00: kind of reason why they have they have this setup.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: interesting.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: The other bullet point that kind of stood out for me in job
15:41
SPEAKER_01: responsibilities was provide SME expertise on program elements of the annual CCO
15:49
SPEAKER_01: and CAMLO reports.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: There were a few acronyms in there.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Subject Matter
15:55
SPEAKER_01: Expert and then CCO and CAMLO.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: We already
15:59
SPEAKER_01: covered you know one one thing about this job posting I found was that there
16:03
SPEAKER_01: were tons and tons of acronyms all throughout it.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Some of them
16:07
SPEAKER_01: are financial industry specific ones that you would
16:12
SPEAKER_01: expect someone who had been working in this industry, and you know,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: in roles of escalating responsibility to just know because they're
16:22
SPEAKER_01: in that industry but some, like me, not so much.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: So you know, kind of for
16:25
SPEAKER_01: the folks who are writing job descriptions... write out what it is in
16:30
SPEAKER_01: full first and then put your acronym in brackets afterwards.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: It
16:34
SPEAKER_01: makes it a heck of a lot easier for people who are trying to read through
16:37
SPEAKER_01: these things to understand what you mean.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Don't count on their
16:42
SPEAKER_01: experience to kind of carry them through what you're writing.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: We've said this before and it's...
16:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean I'm guilty of doing it myself.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: We
16:49
SPEAKER_00: are so used to our own pattern language within our organizations.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: Even if it
16:54
SPEAKER_00: is "SME", which is something that I would assume most people know, some people
16:58
SPEAKER_00: don't.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: So you really should be writing it all out.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: And that goes for your
17:02
SPEAKER_00: resume, too.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Do that on the other side of things because people don't know.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: They just... they just don't.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe they have the same acronym at their
17:11
SPEAKER_00: organization, but it means something different.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're offending them.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're swearing in their company culture language.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: So, just write it all
17:20
SPEAKER_00: out.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Stop using the acronyms.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
17:23
SPEAKER_01: As I think of it,
17:26
SPEAKER_01: maybe in this context they actually mean Chief Compliance Officer by CCO instead
17:32
SPEAKER_01: of Chief Commercial Officer.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Financial services firms have both roles.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: Like
17:37
SPEAKER_01: there's Chief Compliance Officers a lot of the time, especially in heavily
17:41
SPEAKER_01: regulated financial services firms.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: But there also Chief Commercial
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Officer roles really, really frequently.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: Does it not say... it doesn't spell it out
17:51
SPEAKER_00: then?
17:51
SPEAKER_00: It just go what?
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: So, you made an assumption that it was Chief
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Commercial Officer.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: I made an assumption, but I also did
17:58
SPEAKER_01: some Googling, some research for this.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: So, I bandied around and was kind of
18:02
SPEAKER_01: like trying to figure out what they meant by CCO.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the stuff
18:06
SPEAKER_01: that I ran into said Chief Commercial Officer.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: So, based on other
18:11
SPEAKER_01: company websites, job descriptions in this industry saying it's Chief
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Commercial Officer.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: I assumed that this was also Chief Commercial Officer.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Maybe
18:19
SPEAKER_01: it's not.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's Chief Compliance Officer.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it should be and it wouldn't surprise me if it were that.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: However,
18:29
SPEAKER_00: the fact that we don't even know is wild.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: So, think about this... what we just kind of stumbled across
18:38
SPEAKER_01: here while we're kind of recording the episode.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, if there's
18:41
SPEAKER_01: nothing in the job posting that specifies something that
18:46
SPEAKER_01: important, how is the candidate to know?
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I think some candidates
18:49
SPEAKER_01: would assume that it's Chief Commercial Officer and then stumble across the
18:54
SPEAKER_01: kind of issues that we've been talking about.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Some might assume that it's Chief
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Compliance Officer and not bring it up.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: They go into the interview.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: What happens
19:01
SPEAKER_01: if it is Chief Commercial Officer or if the opposite is true?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: What if you think
19:04
SPEAKER_01: it's Chief Commercial Officer?
19:06
SPEAKER_01: You go in and you find out it's Chief Compliance
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Officer.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: That's going to kind of throw a bit of a wrench into your
19:10
SPEAKER_01: interview.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I think, absolutely, it would... it impacts how you
19:15
SPEAKER_00: prepare for the interview.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Compliance Technology.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: So there were a couple things that stood out for
19:26
SPEAKER_01: me in here.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: The first one is lead the implementation and maintenance of
19:32
SPEAKER_01: compliance-based systems.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Then it says oversee the management of compliance
19:37
SPEAKER_01: technologies.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: Then it says act as the primary advisory point of contact with
19:42
SPEAKER_01: IT business partners.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: So these things together kind of they
19:46
SPEAKER_01: kind of start to paint a little bit of a picture of a role that is pretty nuanced
19:52
SPEAKER_01: and there's a lot going on here... like you're kind of going to be
19:56
SPEAKER_01: responsible for developing metrics and reporting and systems and whatnot.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Now they're also saying, hey, you're going to be responsible for technology.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: That seems like a lot to put on one person.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: So for me, I would be
20:10
SPEAKER_01: interested in knowing what the support team is around you for this, because that
20:15
SPEAKER_01: could get to be a lot, right?
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: What the wording is interesting to
20:20
SPEAKER_00: me without seeing it in front of me.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, it lists compliance technology
20:26
SPEAKER_00: specifically, but it sounds like in one bullet point they're just saying it as
20:31
SPEAKER_01: well.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
20:32
SPEAKER_00: So just general IT at the company.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I would kind of interpret that as... so what the bullet point says is, "Act as the
20:42
SPEAKER_01: primary advisory point of contact with IT business partners."
20:46
SPEAKER_01: So that to me kind
20:48
SPEAKER_01: of suggests that they outsource a lot of their specific technology
20:52
SPEAKER_01: requirements and that they might outsource their compliance technology.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: So this person then is kind of like a project manager, program manager,
21:00
SPEAKER_01: whatever, and has to work with these external IT business partners.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Or
21:04
SPEAKER_01: maybe they're internal, don't know.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: But somebody separate from this person
21:08
SPEAKER_01: and their group.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: So they're going to be outside of this person's direct kind of
21:12
SPEAKER_01: contact, but still in their sphere of influence.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: It sounds a bit like
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean we... the company I work for, we do have a third party IT
21:23
SPEAKER_00: service provider and someone on our leadership team is the point of contact
21:28
SPEAKER_00: and I think it's pretty light touch.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that it's a huge, huge ask.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: But again this is a way bigger
21:39
SPEAKER_00: company than the organization that I'm at currently.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's hard to say.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: The next set of things that stood out for me under the financial crime systems
21:50
SPEAKER_01: subsection... bullet points are: oversee financial
21:55
SPEAKER_01: crime related rule refinements to core AML systems
22:00
SPEAKER_01: and ensure proactive testing and monitoring of data and system
22:04
SPEAKER_01: functionality.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: So those two things together, they kind
22:08
SPEAKER_01: of deepen this story of like IT management within this role, right?
22:14
SPEAKER_01: And just for context, folks, I'm 99% sure that the acronym AML is anti-money
22:20
SPEAKER_01: laundering.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: That seems to fit with the narrative and my Googling suggested that
22:24
SPEAKER_01: that was true, but it never actually says it verbatim in the job ad.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: So, we'll
22:29
SPEAKER_01: just have to go on faith that it means anti-money laundering.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that was gonna be my next question for you.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: What the heck is AML?
22:36
SPEAKER_00: But thank
22:36
SPEAKER_00: you for addressing that.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Sounds about right based on me knowing absolutely
22:41
SPEAKER_00: nothing about this industry.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Sounds bang on.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: In the section that they wrote in this job ad called "What We're Looking
22:52
SPEAKER_01: For", I'm going to read out everything because it's all kind of
22:56
SPEAKER_01: interesting.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It paints a fairly clear picture of the type of
23:01
SPEAKER_01: person that they want to bring into this role.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: So the first bullet point is
23:05
SPEAKER_01: university degree in business or equivalency in related experience.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: At
23:10
SPEAKER_01: least ten years experience with regulated financial services.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: At least seven years
23:16
SPEAKER_01: people management experience.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Direct experience in AML and regulatory
23:21
SPEAKER_01: compliance.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Strong working knowledge of financial
23:25
SPEAKER_01: regulations.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Strong research skills and analytical ability to review and
23:30
SPEAKER_01: organize large amounts of information and draw appropriate conclusions.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Capable of growing and succeeding in a fast-paced entrepreneurial environment.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: Ability to consult and partner within all levels of the organization,
23:46
SPEAKER_01: including senior level officers.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Proactive with proven ability to
23:51
SPEAKER_01: multitask while meeting deadlines as required.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Strong initiative,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: decision-making and problem solving capabilities, excellent communication /
24:01
SPEAKER_01: interpersonal skills, dealing with highly complex issues and generating
24:07
SPEAKER_01: both pragmatic and effective solutions.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's what they're looking for in a
24:13
SPEAKER_01: candidate.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty detailed.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Most what we run across are not that
24:18
SPEAKER_01: detailed.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Does anything stand out for you?
24:20
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's very detailed.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I just keep thinking to myself who...
24:25
SPEAKER_00: I
24:28
SPEAKER_00: would never have the confidence to apply all that asks so much.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe I can
24:34
SPEAKER_00: tick off a few of those boxes but man that's asking a lot.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Big role.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: What's that
24:40
SPEAKER_00: big role?
24:40
SPEAKER_01: It's a big role.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: It's a big role.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a big role.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a
24:44
SPEAKER_00: significant role and a critical role.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: So I would hope that the pay is very
24:51
SPEAKER_00: generous for this role because they're asking for a lot.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people
24:58
SPEAKER_00: management experience, experience within the, you know, doing the work itself.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: I think when you when you're looking at a job description, I don't know if I'm if
25:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean what I'm saying right now, but I'm just going to say it out loud.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: I
25:12
SPEAKER_00: think that that's how this works, right?
25:17
SPEAKER_00: I think that the most telling part of a job description and maybe at least for
25:22
SPEAKER_00: this one is this section.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Because it tells you so much about the
25:26
SPEAKER_00: role.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: It tells you so much about what you're going to be expected to do and
25:32
SPEAKER_00: yet it's also so vague like fast-paced, entrepreneurial, innovative, blah blah
25:36
SPEAKER_00: blah.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Seven years of people management experience.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: It says so much
25:39
SPEAKER_00: and yet it says so little.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: You know it's going to be really busy.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: You know you're going to be managing people.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: How many people, busy in what
25:49
SPEAKER_00: way?
25:50
SPEAKER_00: It's a mystery that you kind of have to decode and read
25:54
SPEAKER_00: it along with the rest of the job description.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: But I do feel like there's
25:58
SPEAKER_00: so much information in that ideal candidate about you.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: They're
26:02
SPEAKER_00: telling you what kind of person you need to be to succeed in this environment.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: I think what's missing for a lot of these job postings is what they will
26:12
SPEAKER_00: do to support you in that to be successful.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that comes later
26:16
SPEAKER_00: because you did mention that there are a few different sections.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Because it's
26:22
SPEAKER_00: just... it's asking a lot.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: This is a critical and big, heavy role.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: In this section too, there are a couple of things in here... like
26:34
SPEAKER_01: where it says, "you need to be capable of growing and succeeding in an
26:38
SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurial environment."
26:40
SPEAKER_01: That's one.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Another one is,
26:45
SPEAKER_01: "Strong initiative decision-making and problem solving capabilities."
26:48
SPEAKER_01: And then
26:49
SPEAKER_01: it goes into being pragmatic.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: So you need to deal with highly complex issues
26:54
SPEAKER_01: and generating pragmatic and effective solutions.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Those things make me wonder
27:00
SPEAKER_01: if CCO actually does mean Chief Commercial Officer,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: right?
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Like they they kind of pull the narrative back in the other direction
27:07
SPEAKER_01: and paint this picture of, you know, this is an entrepreneurial organization.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: This ain't no big six bank that's been around for a
27:16
SPEAKER_01: hundred years.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: This is small and lean and entrepreneurial.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is Chief
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Commercial Officer.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: But this is what's interesting to me.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: You
27:23
SPEAKER_00: just... you just named something that I want to talk about.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: How are you
27:29
SPEAKER_00: expected to... how is it an entrepreneurial environment, and how are you supposed to
27:33
SPEAKER_00: have like an entrepreneurial mindset when it's not.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: They just talked
27:38
SPEAKER_00: about all of these acquisitions.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: They're not just your mom and pop corner shop
27:42
SPEAKER_00: where you get your cheque cashed.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: This is a big organization.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: So how does
27:48
SPEAKER_00: this organization... and lots of them put "entrepreneurial mindset", but it's like a
27:52
SPEAKER_00: corporate structure to me that's a direct
27:56
SPEAKER_00: conflict.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: So I wonder what companies mean when they say that... just like
28:02
SPEAKER_00: generally... you want someone to be scrappy, but it's a corporation, so you probably
28:08
SPEAKER_00: have a lot of rigidity and structure, like guard rails in place.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: So, I think
28:13
SPEAKER_00: that that's interesting because I, you know, you'd said pragmatic and yes, you
28:19
SPEAKER_00: can be pragmatic and you can be entrepreneurial.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: But which one
28:25
SPEAKER_00: do you go with when you're faced with certain decisions to make, right?
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Do I
28:30
SPEAKER_00: get to be the entrepreneurial person or do I have to be pragmatic about it?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Because to me, they are a little bit in conflict with each other.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: And my kind of take on compliance people and compliance
28:44
SPEAKER_01: officers, compliance directors, you know, they fulfill
28:48
SPEAKER_01: extremely important functions in organizations that have the potential
28:56
SPEAKER_01: to, you know, purposefully or not, cause harm to people or society.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: You
29:01
SPEAKER_01: know, their job is to make sure that the system and the structure that they're
29:05
SPEAKER_01: working with mitigates the risk of harm to stakeholders, society, whatever else.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: You do not want compliance people who are entrepreneurial.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: That just doesn't work.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, when you're
29:19
SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurially-minded, you're an entrepreneur, you think about how to
29:22
SPEAKER_01: go get the bacon.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: You don't want a compliance officer in a financial
29:26
SPEAKER_01: services firm that thinks about how to go get the bacon.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: That's a bad idea.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: And I see it as kind of like you're
29:36
SPEAKER_00: almost building the plane while flying it or writing the rules as you go.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that that's the environment to do that, but sometimes
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we hear these terms so often that people just kind of
29:53
SPEAKER_00: automatically add them to job postings when maybe they mean something else.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: And
29:57
SPEAKER_00: I think we kind of forget what that actually means.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: But again, I mean
30:01
SPEAKER_00: obviously you don't want to go into the interview and challenge all of these
30:05
SPEAKER_00: things that they say, but it is something to... it would be a good question to ask if
30:08
SPEAKER_00: I were part of the hiring team and somebody asked... how do you
30:15
SPEAKER_00: or how do people in this role... how have they previously, or how would
30:18
SPEAKER_00: you expect someone to balance being entrepreneurial and also pragmatic in
30:22
SPEAKER_00: the role?
30:23
SPEAKER_00: To me that's a really good question to ask during the
30:25
SPEAKER_00: interview.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: They might be like get out of here.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Don't ask that question.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: But I
30:29
SPEAKER_00: think it's a good question.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: I would want to know how they expect
30:33
SPEAKER_00: someone to proceed and succeed when those are the requirements.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: And the regulatory environment in Canada for financial services firms
30:43
SPEAKER_01: is very rigid.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, like FINTRAC compliance is no easy thing,
30:50
SPEAKER_01: right?
30:51
SPEAKER_01: So I think that if you had someone come in who truly was
30:54
SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurial and, you know, they developed solutions and thought kind of
30:59
SPEAKER_01: outside the box and they figured they could come up with something to meet
31:02
SPEAKER_01: some requirement that FINTRAC has set out, they might end up getting their
31:09
SPEAKER_01: wrist slapped a lot.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: And it would all kind of dot back to this structural part
31:13
SPEAKER_01: of the job ad where it said we want someone who is pragmatic, who is a
31:17
SPEAKER_01: problem solver, who is entrepreneurial in the way that they think.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes
31:21
SPEAKER_01: you don't want people who are entrepreneurial in the way that they
31:24
SPEAKER_01: think.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: I think a
31:27
SPEAKER_00: compliance type role has a certain disposition.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: It's a certain personality
31:33
SPEAKER_00: and that's as it should be, I guess, is what I'm saying.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: The next section that I wanted to kind of get into, and this is another
31:41
SPEAKER_01: one where I'm going to read out the entire section because I think it's
31:45
SPEAKER_01: interesting.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: It's "What You'll Love About Working Here."
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Award-winning
31:50
SPEAKER_01: culture.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: We're proud to be recognized as a great place to work Canada 2025 and
31:56
SPEAKER_01: one of Montreal's top employers 2025 by Canada's top 100 employers... for the job
32:03
SPEAKER_01: based in Toronto... work life balance.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy flexibility with our hybrid work
32:07
SPEAKER_01: model designed to support your lifestyle.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Time to recharge.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Generous
32:12
SPEAKER_01: vacation based on your role.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Statutory holidays plus six wellness days to
32:17
SPEAKER_01: prioritize your well-being.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Compensation package.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Competitive base salary plus an
32:22
SPEAKER_01: annual incentive bonus tied to performance.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Comprehensive benefits.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Robust health and dental coverage through ManuLife as well as virtual
32:31
SPEAKER_01: health care through Dialogue.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Future ready savings: group retirement savings
32:37
SPEAKER_01: plan with up to 7% employer match exclusive perks discounts from top
32:41
SPEAKER_01: retailers via work perks plus location-based perks like gym membership
32:47
SPEAKER_01: and Toronto bike share.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: On-site fitness gym access at our London and Montreal
32:52
SPEAKER_01: offices.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Continuous growth education assistance program and COMPANY academy
32:58
SPEAKER_01: for training and skills development.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Family support parental leave top-up
33:03
SPEAKER_01: program to help you during life's big moments.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Community impact, one paid
33:07
SPEAKER_01: volunteer day to give back to causes that matter to you.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: For more information
33:11
SPEAKER_01: on who we are as an employer, click here.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Then I just took out the URL.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: So
33:16
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot in there.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Did anything stick out for you?
33:20
SPEAKER_01: Definitely
33:21
SPEAKER_01: for me it was like we're Montreal's top employer, but hey, you're working in
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Toronto.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: And we've talked about those awards in
33:31
SPEAKER_00: the past too is that they are, you know, some of them do have a
33:35
SPEAKER_00: rigorous application process and sometimes you don't get
33:43
SPEAKER_00: the award or whatever.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: But, I also think that if you ask anyone who
33:47
SPEAKER_00: has ever worked at a company that has received those awards, they might be
33:50
SPEAKER_00: like, "Oh yeah, that was the worst place I've ever worked."
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Right?
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Like it's one
33:55
SPEAKER_00: of those things that they do it through an application process.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: They do it through employment, employee surveys and things like that
34:06
SPEAKER_00: and it's just a snapshot in a moment of time.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't buy into it too
34:10
SPEAKER_00: much, but yeah, they list a couple of things that are great at other locations...
34:14
SPEAKER_00: Gym at our London and whatever office but that's not this office, so you don't get
34:18
SPEAKER_00: a gym.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: So, just don't list that.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Just don't put that because the
34:23
SPEAKER_00: people aren't getting it.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Hybrid role.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: I think the last time we reviewed
34:27
SPEAKER_00: a role from this or they were in person, not hybrid.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: So, that's cool.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't
34:34
SPEAKER_00: remember you saying it listed how many days a week you were required to be
34:38
SPEAKER_00: in office.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: So, in these
34:41
SPEAKER_01: bullet points here, it lists hybrid, but in the job classification, it
34:47
SPEAKER_01: doesn't say hybrid.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: It says in office.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: So, I wonder what
34:52
SPEAKER_00: which one's right.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: What's the truth?
34:56
SPEAKER_00: When
34:57
SPEAKER_00: we see hybrid postings, I like to see how many days a week.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: That
35:02
SPEAKER_00: makes a difference to people.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: Like regardless of whether or not you have
35:05
SPEAKER_00: family, it just at the end of the day, it makes a big difference.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Even for me
35:10
SPEAKER_00: with I mean, I have social anxiety issues.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Committing to four days a week in an office versus two days a week is a really big
35:21
SPEAKER_00: deal.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: It's going to change how I feel about a role.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: I know
35:25
SPEAKER_00: that might sound wild to some people, but that's just the reality of the
35:28
SPEAKER_00: situation.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: That's why I prefer remote 100%.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: And 7% RRSP matching or some
35:37
SPEAKER_00: kind of retirement matching is generous.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: It's generous.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the vacation was interesting.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: It said depending on the
35:45
SPEAKER_00: role, or the role level.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: That makes me wonder how transparent they are with
35:49
SPEAKER_00: their vacation packages.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they would just list it and maybe they don't
35:53
SPEAKER_00: want to because they don't want other people to see how much the higher-ups get
35:58
SPEAKER_00: for theirs... so that's a little bit secretive
36:02
SPEAKER_00: there as well.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
36:04
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point because you you know that this is a director level role
36:07
SPEAKER_01: because you put it in the job posting, It's in the title.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: Why can't you list
36:12
SPEAKER_01: out what vacation director level roles get?
36:14
SPEAKER_01: The only logical reason is that you
36:16
SPEAKER_01: don't want the people who aren't directors to know, though anybody who
36:22
SPEAKER_01: would work closely with a director in the organization, they'd kind of be able
36:24
SPEAKER_01: to know, based on the fact that you are out of the office five weeks or whatever
36:27
SPEAKER_01: it's... it's kind of weird.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: I think to for a role like this, that is... we've said it a
36:38
SPEAKER_00: million times in this one episode.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: It's a big role.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: it's a heavy role.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: You want
36:42
SPEAKER_00: to sell it a little bit better than that.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: So maybe do list those types of
36:47
SPEAKER_00: things.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Maybe give just a little bit more information.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Because other than
36:51
SPEAKER_00: that, the what you'll love about it sounds very much like the loan
36:56
SPEAKER_00: consultant role.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: So to me, I'm like, eh, those perks aren't that great.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And
37:02
SPEAKER_00: the reality is sometimes in some organizations higher level roles do have
37:07
SPEAKER_00: more or better or different perks.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: And so you've got to sell it maybe a little
37:12
SPEAKER_00: bit more in my opinion.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Before we go
37:17
SPEAKER_01: into the next section, we want to hang on to one bullet point that's in
37:24
SPEAKER_01: here.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: Compensation package: competitive base salary plus an annual incentive
37:29
SPEAKER_01: bonus tied to performance.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: So they list that in this section which is what
37:33
SPEAKER_01: you'll love about working here.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: Now going into the next section, "What you
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Can Expect—Pay and Process".
37:41
SPEAKER_01: So they listed a base salary range.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Plus they
37:45
SPEAKER_01: also said, well...
37:46
SPEAKER_01: I'll just read it out here.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: Expected base salary range is
37:50
SPEAKER_01: blank to blank... because Jen's still gotta guess...
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Plus the opportunity to earn an annual incentive bonus tied to performance.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Bit of duplication there in my mind.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: Why put it in both places?
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, the
38:04
SPEAKER_01: other thing in pay and process here, two three more things actually that were
38:08
SPEAKER_01: kind of notable.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: This posting is for an existing vacancy within our
38:13
SPEAKER_01: organization.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Artificial intelligence may be used in parts of the recruitment
38:18
SPEAKER_01: process and all candidates considered for hire must successfully pass a
38:23
SPEAKER_01: criminal background check, a credit check, and validation of their work
38:28
SPEAKER_01: experience to qualify for hire.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, before we get into guessing the
38:33
SPEAKER_01: salary band, did anything stick out here?
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Like they're they're following the
38:38
SPEAKER_01: things they need to, which is good, but what did this say to you?
38:42
SPEAKER_00: What does it say to me?
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, I do like that it notes it's an existing
38:48
SPEAKER_00: vacancy.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm not surprised that it's an existing
38:54
SPEAKER_00: vacancy because the job seems a lot.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not surprised about that.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: they talk about AI, criminal... we talked about this too... for
39:05
SPEAKER_00: certain roles, criminal record checks are just a requirement.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: That's just the
39:09
SPEAKER_00: way that it is.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that they list like validation of work
39:14
SPEAKER_00: experience because that...
39:19
SPEAKER_00: you don't see that listed explicitly in job postings very often.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
39:23
SPEAKER_00: this, right?
39:26
SPEAKER_00: It's very rare.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to
39:27
SPEAKER_00: think when they actually say that.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: You you would think that that's a given
39:32
SPEAKER_00: because if they're going to do a reference check, then they're also at
39:35
SPEAKER_00: the same time, kind of validating your work experience.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, they
39:41
SPEAKER_00: disclose AI.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't...
39:42
SPEAKER_00: I didn't see, I don't recall, you saying anything about
39:45
SPEAKER_00: any type of accommodation.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: no, they don't actually talk about accommodations.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: okay.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: There is an accommodation statement.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: So they say... "COMPANY is an
39:59
SPEAKER_01: equal opportunity employer.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Accordingly, we will make reasonable accommodations
40:03
SPEAKER_01: to respond to the needs of people with disabilities.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: Individuals who view
40:09
SPEAKER_01: themselves as Aboriginals, members of visible minorities and disabled [sic] are
40:14
SPEAKER_01: encouraged to apply in confidence.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: And, verbatim, that's what they wrote.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: They
40:18
SPEAKER_01: could have phrased that a little differently.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Listen, I'm not even going to get into the
40:26
SPEAKER_00: language that they use.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm not down with that language.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: I feel like
40:30
SPEAKER_00: it's a little bit outdated and they need to work on their accommodation
40:36
SPEAKER_00: statement.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Yikes.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: But you asked me what what those things tell me.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: What do they tell you?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: The thing where... the only thing that really stuck out to me here was the
40:53
SPEAKER_01: you must have the validation of your work experience to qualify for
40:57
SPEAKER_01: hiring.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: That really stuck out.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, that's rare.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, neither
41:04
SPEAKER_01: one of us has seen that much if at all in job postings and job ads.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: I would
41:10
SPEAKER_01: kind of tie that back to the seriousness of this role and kind of the
41:14
SPEAKER_01: the requirements and the responsibilities and the duties that
41:17
SPEAKER_01: they'll have.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: They did say earlier on in the job ad that you
41:22
SPEAKER_01: need to have I think it was seven years of people management experience, ten
41:28
SPEAKER_01: years of experience in a regulated financial kind of industry position.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Basically what they're saying is like you need to know FINTRAC, you need to
41:37
SPEAKER_01: know all of the associated compliance requirements and the legislation and
41:41
SPEAKER_01: blah blah blah.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: And it makes kind of sense to me that they would want to test
41:47
SPEAKER_01: your knowledge of that.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: But with this, what they're doing is they're saying,
41:51
SPEAKER_01: "We're not actually going to test your knowledge of compliance and regulation.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: We're going to use your work history as a proxy for that."
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's good,
42:01
SPEAKER_01: maybe it's not.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: I think that I would kind of lean more towards we're going to
42:06
SPEAKER_01: validate your knowledge firsthand rather than saying, "Oh, he worked at, you
42:09
SPEAKER_01: know, Joe's bank down the street, so it must be good."
42:12
SPEAKER_01: That, I just... that's weird
42:14
SPEAKER_01: to me.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: That stands out to me for sure.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: That is
42:19
SPEAKER_00: something that's an outlier.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: So, let's get into kind of the fun part.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about salary.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: Given what you know about this job role,
42:28
SPEAKER_01: what we've talked about before, and the fact that your buns are kind of on the
42:32
SPEAKER_01: hot seat right now getting warm.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: What do you think the range that they posted for
42:38
SPEAKER_01: this was?
42:40
SPEAKER_00: I love how you said this is the fun part because it's like my least
42:42
SPEAKER_00: favourite part.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: It's my favourite part.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: I love it when you're
42:44
SPEAKER_01: in the hot seat.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: I cannot stand guessing the salary.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: I
42:49
SPEAKER_00: just have no idea.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I've been living under a rock or what.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: But
42:55
SPEAKER_00: I rely so much when I'm creating salary bands at work, on data.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of
43:02
SPEAKER_00: research when I'm figuring out salary bands.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: So, to not be able to access
43:07
SPEAKER_00: that and there's no cheating like I'm not Googling or anything like that.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: I do remember from the previous posting that the salary... it wasn't bad like it
43:17
SPEAKER_00: was an hourly rate I believe for the loan consultant role and it wasn't bad.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: I think we were both like impressed with that.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: So given that this is in Toronto
43:28
SPEAKER_00: and this is a senior leadership
43:34
SPEAKER_00: role, a director role, I'm going... but then... but then again, but
43:41
SPEAKER_00: then again nobody ever pays what they should be paying for roles.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: So I need to
43:46
SPEAKER_00: take that into consideration as well.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm just rambling so that I don't have
43:51
SPEAKER_00: to answer the... did I answer the question?
43:54
SPEAKER_00: No.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say...
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be like
43:58
SPEAKER_00: a little bit...
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to dial it back a little bit and say a range of like 165
44:03
SPEAKER_00: to 180.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: You are the most generous person in the
44:11
SPEAKER_01: room and this job posting.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: So they posted a range of 120 to 150, plus the
44:17
SPEAKER_01: opportunity to earn an annual incentive bonus tied to performance.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Now, there's
44:21
SPEAKER_01: nothing about the calculation of that.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: There's no sense of
44:25
SPEAKER_01: what that bonus could be.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: So, maybe the bonus could get them up to where you're
44:29
SPEAKER_01: at.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: But, no, you are more generous than they are.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: That's interesting to me because again, what are the things
44:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: You compare what that rate was for a loan consultant
44:42
SPEAKER_00: which was higher than usual... location... and then the job itself
44:50
SPEAKER_00: which is a big job, we've said.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: I would expect it to be like at the very
44:56
SPEAKER_00: least I thought saying 165 was like a little bit embarrassing...
44:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like that's
45:01
SPEAKER_01: quite low, so me myself, if I was guessing I would have
45:06
SPEAKER_01: guessed this between 175 and 200, right?
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a big job.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: It's a big, big job.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: And this person will have
45:16
SPEAKER_01: access to a ton of proprietary data that is extremely sensitive.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: They'll have
45:22
SPEAKER_01: access to a lot of proprietary knowledge inside the regulatory process that you
45:28
SPEAKER_01: know if you found the right criminal organization and said... guess what guys, I
45:33
SPEAKER_01: can guarantee you a system that all of your shenanigans will get through... this
45:37
SPEAKER_01: organization... like let's, you know, just get me a half mil.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: That could be
45:44
SPEAKER_01: a huge risk, so like paying this level, I think it's a little bit
45:49
SPEAKER_01: low and I think that they should be paying paying more to mitigate risk of things
45:53
SPEAKER_01: like that from happening.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: But general reference check blah blah blah like
45:57
SPEAKER_01: there all those factors that are kind of in play that are designed to mitigate
46:00
SPEAKER_01: this too, right?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: But I thought that they were underpaying as well for a role this
46:04
SPEAKER_01: important.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: And they're asking for people management
46:06
SPEAKER_00: experience as well.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Seven years.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: You don't get to seven years of people
46:10
SPEAKER_00: management experience and not have a kind of higher salary band.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: So,
46:17
SPEAKER_00: that's another additional responsibility.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: Managing people is a
46:20
SPEAKER_00: huge responsibility and should get paid accordingly.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: yeah, I was going to say something else and I completely forgot.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, when you're
46:31
SPEAKER_00: an applicant for these kinds of roles, this is another data point to think
46:36
SPEAKER_00: about.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Think about this role level and the salary band and think about your
46:41
SPEAKER_00: career pathway at that organization.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Right?
46:44
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take too much
46:46
SPEAKER_00: mathemizing.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Is that a word?
46:50
SPEAKER_01: It's Monday word for sure.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: Mathemizing.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: It is now...
46:56
SPEAKER_00: to calculate.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just calculate.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's the word.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: I need to...
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I need to take a note on the use of the word mathemizing and note down
47:05
SPEAKER_01: that it's like March 9th.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Because that is going to be the next thing that
47:10
SPEAKER_01: goes up on our branded coffee cups.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Words.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: I am... my face is turning red.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm
47:16
SPEAKER_00: not good at math and so it's not a big surprise that I don't know how to say
47:22
SPEAKER_00: math words either.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't take much to calculate.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay, here's my career
47:27
SPEAKER_00: progression in a few years.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Could I be, you know, is there a senior director
47:31
SPEAKER_00: role?
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Is there a CAMLO role or whatever I could move into?
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Like how
47:35
SPEAKER_00: much are they making then?
47:37
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be that much.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: You're not going
47:40
SPEAKER_00: to be like rolling in it.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: And for some people, this sounds
47:44
SPEAKER_00: terrible because for some people this is a lot of money, and it is, at the end of
47:48
SPEAKER_00: the day.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: But you just have to think about your career progression at that
47:52
SPEAKER_00: organization and if you have some aspirations that you would like to reach
47:56
SPEAKER_00: financially... is this the place that's going to get you there?
48:00
SPEAKER_00: Maybe with a
48:01
SPEAKER_00: bonus.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: But we don't know... we don't have that information.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: So
48:05
SPEAKER_01: yeah, and the thing that would go into that is like what are the conditions you
48:09
SPEAKER_01: need to satisfy to qualify for a bonus.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: Bonuses in organizations and roles
48:15
SPEAKER_01: that are driven by sales, you know, it's very easy for those bonuses to get
48:20
SPEAKER_01: very, very, very big.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, like kill it on the sales side, blow all your
48:25
SPEAKER_01: targets out of the water, reward with a big old bonus.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: What are the things that
48:30
SPEAKER_01: go into a bonus for a compliance type role where you're
48:35
SPEAKER_01: far removed from sales and marketing and everything that generates
48:40
SPEAKER_01: revenue?
48:41
SPEAKER_01: So are you incentivized on the number of whack-a-moles that you
48:44
SPEAKER_01: whack with your big mallet?
48:45
SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Because intuitively, in
48:49
SPEAKER_01: the organization there isn't going to be a lot or any monetary value assigned to
48:56
SPEAKER_01: strict compliance.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: Nothing direct.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: The monetary value comes from
49:00
SPEAKER_01: mitigating risk... that's very difficult to calculate the value of that, at least in
49:04
SPEAKER_01: like a performance bonus kind of context.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I agree, and I have forever
49:08
SPEAKER_00: been in roles that are not associated with like any type of revenue generation
49:15
SPEAKER_00: at all and so you do feel that much further removed from having any kind of
49:21
SPEAKER_00: say in what that pool is going to look like, and it is a little bit
49:25
SPEAKER_00: difficult and again I'm not expecting them to list how their bonuses are
49:31
SPEAKER_00: calculated in a job posting.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: But, interesting conversations to have down
49:35
SPEAKER_00: the road.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: All right, folks.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: We are going to
49:38
SPEAKER_01: take a short intermission to give Jen time to properly go through the job post
49:43
SPEAKER_01: and we will be back right after that to bring down the final scores.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, we're back.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: We have gone through the job post and I think that we
50:04
SPEAKER_01: are in a position now to render final verdicts and give this bad boy a score.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: Jen, thinking about the job post by itself, just the job post as it's
50:15
SPEAKER_01: written, what would you score this and why?
50:19
SPEAKER_00: I, again, I like the job posting.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: I think that they have a lot of the information we need to know that
50:30
SPEAKER_00: candidates should know... things like whether or not it's an existing
50:33
SPEAKER_00: position, is it a new position, the reporting structure, it does list a
50:40
SPEAKER_00: salary, it does disclose AI.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: It has a lot...
50:44
SPEAKER_00: I would I prefer more
50:45
SPEAKER_00: information than less.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: So, it is quite long.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of the
50:54
SPEAKER_00: responsibilities.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm just scrolling through right now.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: So I
50:59
SPEAKER_00: think for the job posting itself, I would say it's an eight-ish out of ten
51:07
SPEAKER_00: for me.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: It's not bad at all.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: What about you?
51:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I thought it was pretty good too.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: On how the job post was written,
51:14
SPEAKER_01: I would give it a seven.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: I give it a little bit less.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: And the things that
51:19
SPEAKER_01: really stood out for me with the structure of this job post and how it
51:23
SPEAKER_01: did its job kind of communicating the role to the candidate is... tons of
51:29
SPEAKER_01: acronyms.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: That was kind of strike number one against it.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: And you can
51:33
SPEAKER_01: absolutely make the argument that for someone who has this level of
51:36
SPEAKER_01: experience, they're just going to know these acronyms because they're so baked
51:40
SPEAKER_01: into this industry and what this person's been doing their entire career
51:43
SPEAKER_01: that it's a non-issue.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's still kind of a problem.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: There is
51:48
SPEAKER_01: ambiguity like with CCO, Chief Commercial Officer... Chief Compliance
51:51
SPEAKER_01: Officer.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: Don't know.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: Little bit of ambiguity
51:56
SPEAKER_01: there.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that kind of stuck out for me that tended to make me
52:01
SPEAKER_01: score this a little bit less is non-localized
52:04
SPEAKER_01: stuff.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: So then we're talking about like, hey,
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Montreal's top hundred employers or whatever it was, that award...
52:13
SPEAKER_01: role's in Toronto.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: Who cares, right?
52:16
SPEAKER_01: Like they did say that Toronto Bike
52:19
SPEAKER_01: Share was a thing, so that's localized.
52:21
SPEAKER_01: But when we were looking at the one a
52:23
SPEAKER_01: couple of weeks ago in St.
52:24
SPEAKER_01: John's, it also said Toronto Bike Share.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: And I made
52:27
SPEAKER_01: the comment back then like, "What are you going to do?
52:29
SPEAKER_01: Hop on your jet and
52:30
SPEAKER_01: come to Toronto to pick up your bike share and then go back to the rock
52:33
SPEAKER_01: after you're done with that?"
52:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, of course not.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: It's irrelevant.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Keep it
52:37
SPEAKER_01: out.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: We saw that again with this post where it said, "Hey, there's an on-site
52:42
SPEAKER_01: gym in Montreal but not for you,
52:45
SPEAKER_00: it wasn't in Toronto.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: So, it's like, why put that stuff in at all?
52:51
SPEAKER_01: It's irrelevant.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: And for some
52:52
SPEAKER_01: people, it's going to kind of be an issue.
52:54
SPEAKER_01: They're going to be like, why do
52:55
SPEAKER_01: I care about that?
52:55
SPEAKER_01: Or they're going to be like, why are you so sloppy?
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Why
52:59
SPEAKER_01: should I work for an organization that is sloppy with the way they communicate
53:02
SPEAKER_01: this stuff?
53:03
SPEAKER_01: So, seven out of ten for me for that.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: Now, thinking about the role
53:08
SPEAKER_01: design, and this is kind of the fun part to talk about, the way that this role is
53:13
SPEAKER_01: structured and designed as it's written out in the job ad, how would you score
53:17
SPEAKER_01: that out of ten?
53:18
SPEAKER_01: Because that's very different from the job ad itself.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: Two very different things.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: Then when we broke to fully review the job
53:27
SPEAKER_00: posting, it actually pissed me off even more that the salary is as low as it is
53:33
SPEAKER_00: because again, like the one you shared, highlights and really good highlights
53:38
SPEAKER_00: but it is quite detailed.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: This is there are a lot of responsibilities and again
53:43
SPEAKER_00: there's managing a team... compliance operations team as well.
53:47
SPEAKER_00: So that dual
53:49
SPEAKER_00: reporting structure... all those deputies like what's their deal?
53:53
SPEAKER_00: What
53:54
SPEAKER_00: role do they play in this whole thing?
53:56
SPEAKER_00: How do they impact me in this role?
53:59
SPEAKER_00: You know how are they... how are they supporting me?
54:02
SPEAKER_00: How are they holding me
54:03
SPEAKER_00: back?
54:04
SPEAKER_00: Who knows.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: That is a lot of personalities to navigate in terms of
54:09
SPEAKER_00: who you're reporting into.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's hard enough to do that with one person.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: So to
54:13
SPEAKER_00: have like the kind of like crew of people, that's how it feels.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: I know
54:18
SPEAKER_00: they're not explicitly saying you also report to these deputy people, but like
54:22
SPEAKER_00: let's be real, it's going to be that way.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: And everyone's going to have
54:27
SPEAKER_00: their opinions.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say that I don't know.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: I would probably
54:34
SPEAKER_01: give it like a five or a six out of ten for that.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: It's
54:39
SPEAKER_00: so hard to say.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: This is the one where it's a little bit just...
54:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean a little
54:43
SPEAKER_00: bit a lot of assumptions need to be made because we don't there's so much
54:47
SPEAKER_00: information that we don't have.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: So I would say a five or or a six.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: They must
54:53
SPEAKER_00: have their reasons why they have this weird reporting structure.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: And
54:58
SPEAKER_00: then the pay... the pay to me is not... it's misaligned with location and job
55:05
SPEAKER_00: scope responsibilities all of that stuff being a people manager.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: So for that
55:09
SPEAKER_01: five-ish yeah I was I was pretty critical on the
55:14
SPEAKER_01: role design too.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: Five for me.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: And kind of echoing
55:17
SPEAKER_01: some of the things that you said... the
55:23
SPEAKER_01: dual reporting thing that's going to be tough to navigate.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: there's that level of ambiguity that is it Chief Commercial Officer, or is it
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Chief Compliance Officer makes a heck of a lot more sense if it's Chief
55:35
SPEAKER_01: Compliance Officer.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: But still having a dual reporting structure is going to
55:39
SPEAKER_01: be a challenge.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: Like it's going to... there's going to be less ethical
55:45
SPEAKER_01: tension about the money-making if this is reporting to a Chief Compliance
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Officer and a Chief Anti-Money Laundering Officer.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: But the same question kind of
55:54
SPEAKER_01: comes up: whose opinion matters most when it comes time for you to sit down for
55:57
SPEAKER_01: your performance review, right?
55:58
SPEAKER_01: What if you piss off the CCO a little bit too
56:01
SPEAKER_01: much?
56:01
SPEAKER_01: Is the CAMLO going to be able to say, "No, no, they've actually done
56:04
SPEAKER_01: really good work, so let's give them, you know, the higher end of the range.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: "
56:08
SPEAKER_01: Don't know.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: That's going to be tough to navigate.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: Another thing that I kind of
56:13
SPEAKER_01: thought was a negative for me in this role design is the level at which this person
56:21
SPEAKER_01: is going to be expected to be split into different areas and be high performing.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: So, they need to be a teacher, a people manager, right?
56:29
SPEAKER_01: But they haven't said
56:30
SPEAKER_01: how many people you're going to be managing in any kind of effective way.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: So you don't know if you are managing a small team of like one or two people for
56:42
SPEAKER_01: like operational issues or if you're managing a team of managers who are
56:48
SPEAKER_01: managing people or if you're just managing a big group of people that's
56:54
SPEAKER_01: like 20 or 30 or 50 or whatever, maybe with some supervisory support.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: You have
56:59
SPEAKER_01: no idea, right?
57:00
SPEAKER_01: And those are very, very different things.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Plus, on top of that
57:03
SPEAKER_01: people management, you've also got to manage technology vendors.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: And one of
57:07
SPEAKER_01: the things that Jen and I didn't talk about in this role in the episode that
57:10
SPEAKER_01: you can see if you hit the episode page and kind of browse through it for
57:14
SPEAKER_01: yourself is that this person is going to be responsible for sourcing and
57:19
SPEAKER_01: implementing serious technology systems that have to do with compliance and
57:24
SPEAKER_01: anti-money laundering.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: So they're picking the system, they're managing the
57:27
SPEAKER_01: IT relationships around that system, meaning that they're managing the
57:32
SPEAKER_01: people, whether they're internal or external who maintain that system and
57:36
SPEAKER_01: other people.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: There's so much that's stacking together in this role.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't
57:40
SPEAKER_01: think it's a viable, sustainable role for someone long-term, which is maybe why
57:44
SPEAKER_01: there's been someone turn out of it recently because it did say that this is
57:49
SPEAKER_01: for an existing vacant role in the organization.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that person burned
57:53
SPEAKER_01: out and I would not be shocked if that was what happened.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: This is a big, big
57:59
SPEAKER_01: role.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Salary 120 to 150 grand.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: Tons more money than a lot of people make.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: Tons
58:04
SPEAKER_01: more money than most people make.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: But it is not a lot of money for the importance
58:11
SPEAKER_01: of this role relative to the organization and to mitigate the risk of
58:15
SPEAKER_01: harm that this role could cause if the person in it goes a little bit sideways.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: So, five out of ten for me for sure on this.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: It needs some work.
58:23
SPEAKER_01: It needs a bit of a rethink.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: And sorry, I know we already
58:28
SPEAKER_00: rated, but I have one more.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: You made me think of something else.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: When you
58:31
SPEAKER_00: look at your career progression in this role, you're Director of Compliance
58:37
SPEAKER_00: Operations reporting to C-Level type roles.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: So, that tells me that
58:42
SPEAKER_00: that's a big jump and there is no in between.
58:44
SPEAKER_00: There's no
58:47
SPEAKER_00: senior director, then VP, then senior VP.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: It's just this role and then those
58:52
SPEAKER_00: those chief roles.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: So where are you going to grow to?
58:55
SPEAKER_00: You have to think
58:56
SPEAKER_00: about that as well.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: Where are you going to grow to?
58:58
SPEAKER_00: It would be one of their
59:01
SPEAKER_00: roles if they were to leave.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: But that's a huge leap.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: So there aren't
59:05
SPEAKER_00: those kind of like stepping stones to get you to where you might want to go in
59:10
SPEAKER_00: your career.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like you, and then long long long long long long time then the
59:17
SPEAKER_00: chief role.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I think because and and the reason why we know this is
59:20
SPEAKER_00: because otherwise you would be reporting into the senior director or the VP of or
59:24
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: So again, there's that story there that you just need to sit with the
59:30
SPEAKER_00: job postings a little bit more and think about all of these things
59:35
SPEAKER_00: when you're reading through and what it is that you want to get from the job.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: and again place of privilege some people you take the job that that you can get
59:46
SPEAKER_00: totally fine.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: But, eyes wide open.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, you're right.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: This is a ceiling role in this
59:53
SPEAKER_01: organization.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: You're not going anywhere up unless it's
59:56
SPEAKER_01: into the C-Suite.
59:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's pretty darn rare that somebody at a director level
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: position in an organization gets placed into a C-Suite position, because
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: remember that in large organizations people for C-Suite positions are
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: nominated to the board and then the board makes the final decision and says
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: yes or no.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: It's not like the CEO is going to come down to your office one
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: day and say hey I want you to be our new CAMLO.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: You start on Monday.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: That's
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: not a thing.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: There's a nomination process and the board's got to approve
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: it.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: And with an organization
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: like that, I can't remember now what we said the employee count was.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: Quite
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: high 1,001 to 5,000.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: It's big enough.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: Big
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: enough.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: It's a big organization.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: Some people in
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: those senior roles aren't going anywhere until they retire.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: I worked at a huge
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: corporation, nationwide, and some people in the roles at their senior
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: level and even when I say senior level we're talking like they're at director
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: level had been there for like 20 years that was their retirement
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: plan they're not going anywhere... like over their cold, dead body are they going
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: to leave that job, and so you have to think about that too like... well how
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: many more years does so and so have... they're going to stay here long term.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Why are they going to leave?
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: And for so many reasons, right?
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: Their own
1:01:21
SPEAKER_00: comfort level, they're close to retirement or they are at a certain age
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: job security.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: Job security.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to go
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: job hunting all of a sudden at like I don't know 57 years old... maybe.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_00: I say
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: that now I'm only like ten years away from that.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: So perhaps, but it gets
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: riskier.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: So, you need to look at that too.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it sounds weird, but look
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: at the age of the people that you're you would be reporting into at the at that
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: leadership table and just think to yourself, well, in five years, where do I
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: want to be?
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's right where you were when you applied for the job,
1:01:59
SPEAKER_00: and that's okay.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: But, if you want more than that, this might not be the
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: place that that's going to make happen for you.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_01: I think the consensus opinion here is that the job ad was
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: better than the role design and we can indeed consider this post roasted.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: See you next week everybody.