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Strictly Come Hamster - Season 22 (featuring Steven B & Jo Short) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:35
Welcome back to Strictly Come Hamster.
0:38
My name is Joe Ford and I am, as ever because I don't like doing
0:43
much work, going to hand you over immediately to my Co host
0:48
who I have been forbidden to say any compliments about this week.
0:53
So I'll just say dogs my footsteps about scheduling on a
0:56
daily basis. All right, this is what I have
0:58
to put up with for this. That's not, that's not mentioned
1:01
scheduling, Joe. You are.
1:03
You are the nightmare. God knows how you've managed to
1:05
get 600 plus episodes out because.
1:08
He had a he had a full head of his hair two months ago.
1:10
You know Mr., Rod Brown. Very much.
1:16
Hey Joey, how is everybody? We've got another couple of
1:19
fantastic guests with us today and we're doing another
1:22
controversial season. We did series 12 last time with
1:25
Jodi, so we're picking. We seem to be in a in a slew of
1:29
con controversial seasons at the moment and tonight no doubt will
1:34
be no difference at all. May my bones rot for picking
1:38
season 22 Colin Baker's first season plus twin dilemma just
1:44
for a bit. Added colour to throw in.
1:46
Can I say that Marv Rath, who's a man who likes things just so,
1:51
has been going on at me for the last five days.
1:56
How dare we include the twin dilemma in season 22?
1:59
And he shall not be participating or listening to
2:02
the episode because we have done that.
2:04
So thank you very much. Thank you for including that
2:07
because he's been in my ear for days.
2:08
Yeah, Fraser Gregory on Twitter has been doing exactly the same.
2:12
How dare we add these there we have Twin Dial Emmer in.
2:15
But hey, we're trying to cover Colin Baker in one lump.
2:18
So, you know, we aim to be different.
2:21
Don't worry. It's annoyed Fraser as well.
2:22
Oh, that's great. Well then I'm really pleased you
2:24
included it then. Well done.
2:28
So we're heading back today to 1980, Four 1985 SA turbulent
2:33
times should we say, in Doctor Who's history period of
2:36
cancellation, which despite the fact we've had hundreds of
2:39
comments, nobody mentioned the cancellation crisis.
2:42
Craig, we're back in those golden days of Doctor in
2:44
distress, which I actually bought on 12 inch vinyl.
2:48
I have to mention time of newspaper front covers, certain
2:54
record producers smashing their TV's with hammers, who can
2:58
forget that? So yeah, controversial time.
3:02
Well, let's jump straight into tonight's conversation.
3:04
Let's say we're joined by two very special guests today to
3:07
help us decide which of these magnificent stories are going to
3:11
pick up the glitter ball on which one is going to be sent
3:14
home tonight. We're sending it on to the
3:16
craggy knob of Titan 3. Joe loves a craggy knob.
3:22
So let us welcome tonight's special guests.
3:25
Stephen, would you like to introduce yourself?
3:29
Hello Ham fam. Some of you might Remember Me
3:31
from the classic Who commentaries such as Castro
3:34
Velvet and The Invasion. Stephen B from the new podcast
3:38
Delighted to be joining you guys for Strictly Come Hamster and
3:44
season 22. I've got a lot of opinions and
3:46
I'm going to tell you people all about it.
3:48
I've. Got.
3:49
A wired up. I can't.
3:50
I've been looking forward to this for a week, Stephen.
3:56
And Joe? Hello everybody, I'm Joe Short
3:59
in the Hand firm. If Joe Ford is David Tennant, I
4:03
am Peter Capaldi, the older, more grumpy one.
4:10
So and although I'm I was alive and I was in my own levels when
4:16
this was happening, so it shows how old I am.
4:19
I don't remember watching this, so this is actually the first
4:22
time I've ever watched this season that I can remember.
4:26
Wow. I've had some things confirmed.
4:29
I've had some things rebutted and oh, there's some things.
4:35
Oh, our first time watcher. This is just something got even.
4:38
More excited. You know, if I did watch this,
4:42
it's gone from my memory from basically doing my own levels at
4:46
the time, which was probably more concentrating on, but it's
4:50
been, it's been something, it's been something.
4:53
It's been something. It's been.
4:55
Something. What was your toughest O level
4:57
to do? Oh God, probably or anything
5:03
maths and science. See.
5:05
If it comes to a choice between a trip to car fell or O level
5:09
maths, you chose the maths. Yeah.
5:11
Oh, I've got No, I've got car fell.
5:14
Oh, bless you, I mean. I mean please pull darrow in
5:18
black les or maths. Keep your powder dry, Joe.
5:22
Keep your powder dry. Right.
5:27
Well, thank you for joining us tonight.
5:28
We have been absolutely inundated with comments on this
5:31
season, so we're going to jump in with some of them straight
5:35
away. So we pepper them throughout
5:37
this episode. Otherwise we will bore you all
5:39
with about four pages of comments.
5:41
So let's kick off with some of the general thoughts from the
5:44
Ham Farm piano in flames. What an excellent name, says one
5:49
of the most polarising seasons of classic who has some of the
5:52
worst, most infamous stories and has some of the best, most
5:55
inventive stories. I may be exaggerating a little,
5:58
but you get what I mean. Oh boy, wait for this, Pete
6:02
Lambert says. Feisty, confident, inventive,
6:06
brutal, charming, funny, cynical, heartfelt.
6:10
It's all there, as fashionable as Collins coat in some circles
6:13
these days. People forget how popular it
6:16
was. The A-Team season premiere hit
6:18
attacks, rakings. But it's remarkable how well
6:21
it's stood up. Johnny Morris, who is on our
6:24
second episode, says for me this is the most Doctor hooey year of
6:28
them all. The normal levels have been
6:30
turned up to 11. Bigger performances, fruitier
6:33
dialogue, full on jokes and more grisly deaths, which is a big
6:37
selling point for the younger viewer.
6:39
Colin is great. After the Davidson era, which I
6:41
love, but which was mostly very sedate and straight placed, it
6:45
is Doctor Who in bold capitals. Neve Fountain says, always
6:50
entertaining. Now look, Neve Fountain's going
6:52
out with Nicola Bryant and he I'll know this for a fact
6:54
because they're coming on to an interview soon.
6:56
I imagine this is going to be very complimentary, But let's
6:59
see. Always entertaining, never
7:01
boring. It's like we were so relieved
7:03
that the show continued after Tom Baker.
7:04
We accepted that two stories a season had to be as dull as
7:08
dishwater. Season 22 changed that.
7:12
Good job he didn't mention Perry.
7:13
Yeah, Craig Williams says. Colin really makes his presence
7:17
felt, unlike Davidson's Captain Beige.
7:19
But some of the stories are just damn right nasty.
7:22
I rarely return to the season now.
7:24
Yeah, Richard Higson says, watching a rock solid,
7:28
straightforward TV show format being seemingly unwittingly
7:32
slowly dismantled. Oh.
7:35
Ouch. Snark in space, another great
7:37
name said. Love it.
7:39
Finally some colour back in the show.
7:41
It's like we've come out of a beige desert into a Technicolor
7:44
world. I get there are flaws, but it's
7:46
never boring. Despite Eric's best efforts to
7:49
make it gritty, it ends up being the most camp and fun the show's
7:52
been since season 17. Fabulous.
7:56
Not really. Midge, you're whatever that
7:59
means, says I love Cole. But season 22 is a mess.
8:03
Then the Day of Soward's glorification of violence, with
8:07
pointless emphasis on fannish continuity as you've been
8:10
talking to you, Stephen, The 45 minute episodes just exacerbate
8:14
the problem with the extended first episode and episodes two
8:17
to three confessed into one, leaving Colin weirdly sidelined
8:21
half the time. Steve Jarvu, see what he did
8:25
that, he said. I really like Colin and Nicola
8:27
Feel they had a great chemistry and Trezani influenced this in
8:31
the wrong way, not for sharp scripts or direction, but
8:33
increased use of violence. John Hall says What puts me off
8:38
is the dysfunctional codependent relationship that Six and Perry
8:41
are stuck in, courtesy of Saward and that Colin and Nicola do
8:45
their best to detoxify. Also, the 45 minute episodes
8:48
just don't work off of the sidelining the Doctor and Perry.
8:52
And finally for this first batch, Andy Parkinson says 22
8:56
starts out well with Attack. The brilliant vengeance the
8:59
still echoes today it dips with Ronnie despite the authentic
9:03
accents. Joke Two Doctors is darkly
9:06
funny, Time lashes camp brilliance and it ends with dark
9:09
and gritty revelation. So I'd say it's pretty mixed
9:13
bag. Should we go to our panelists?
9:16
Let's just get a gentle for before we go into the individual
9:18
stories themselves, Stephen and Joe, can you give us your kind
9:22
of overall views and opinions of of the season?
9:25
Yeah, Steven, go for it. Yeah, sure.
9:27
Thank you. I have to say that I've gone on
9:30
a journey with season 22 in that it was a a season that I held in
9:36
very low esteem for a very long time and it has been reappraised
9:41
and I guess I don't see it as as the absolute and idea of Doctor
9:47
as perhaps I once did. Having said that, I still don't
9:51
think it's very good, so I'll leave it at that for now.
9:56
I tease up for things to come. Was it this, was it watching it
9:59
for this and sort of looking at it for this that forced that re
10:03
evaluation or has that been happening over time?
10:05
No, that's been happening I think over the last few years
10:07
and I'll probably get into that and reasons why as we dive into
10:10
this. But you know it is one of those
10:12
things where every time I'll go back and watch a story like for
10:15
instance Marcus, Ryan, which I don't particularly rate,
10:17
there'll be something that I find it.
10:18
It's like oh, OK actually that's that's seems to be a bit of a
10:22
glimmer in a, in an otherwise perhaps dreary kind of story so
10:27
that it does continue to surprise me and enchant me even.
10:30
So it it is a continuing process, Joe.
10:33
Yeah. You Are you sifting out tiny
10:36
gold Nuggets and a whole load of shit?
10:38
Is that what you're saying? I think that would be another
10:43
way to express it, yes. You're far too eloquent to put
10:47
it like that. Lied, I was going to say.
10:52
Joe, you've already told your your recent rewatch of this, so
10:57
your your feelings overall on the season.
10:59
This is the most Marmite season ever.
11:02
There are so many things which I loved.
11:05
There were so many themes. There were so many, like,
11:07
characters that are good. And then there are some stuff
11:11
that is unbelievably dreadful. You know, it's excruciatingly
11:18
dreadful. It's like you think this is the
11:20
worst thing I've ever seen in my entire.
11:22
Life and it's. Like, I love the sort of the,
11:26
you know, this of overarching themes.
11:29
You know, everyone says like, you know, you see the new
11:31
seasons and then you know, there's like a running theme,
11:33
You know, you've got the hybrid or you've got bad wolf.
11:36
I mean in this, this sort of the Nazi science, the racial purity,
11:40
the eugenics idea that seems to crop up in some way or the other
11:44
in every single one of the stories, even though they're all
11:46
written by different people and they're not connected in any
11:49
way. Now that's that's if you that's
11:51
a kernel as I was kernel as one idea that's excellent and you
11:55
can imagine say Russell or Steven Moffat doing something
11:58
with that. Nowadays if you took all these
12:00
all these stories shove them in a blender somewhere in there is
12:05
a really good season somewhere there are bits that you would
12:09
make a really good season for. This doesn't as a whole it
12:13
doesn't work. There are some elements are
12:15
absolutely you know, you know, you know there's a whole
12:17
received fan wisdom which you try to ignore but you can't
12:21
because it however sort of blindly you come into these
12:24
things you've got you've heard things, you've heard what other
12:27
people say, you've read stuff. It's if you don't know, IA bit
12:31
sad at the end because what this could have been so much better.
12:35
It really could have been so much better.
12:37
You could say you know if at a different producer, if you've
12:40
had a different script editor, if you know other people have
12:45
written the stories. So you're basically replacing
12:48
everybody in the season and then you're saying it's going to be
12:51
better? No, I mean, no, there's
12:53
something, well, there's some people I would definitely
12:55
replace. You know, some people you could
12:57
replace with a mop on a stick and they'd be better.
12:59
Is it so? But.
13:03
In the way you've come out and you just think, oh God, that was
13:06
inviteable if you just have regrets, I think.
13:10
Why did I watch that? No, no.
13:13
Just like for what could have been, it's the sort of what
13:15
could have been is the sort of the bit that sort of lingers.
13:19
Really. You come out of it, you think,
13:21
oh, this could have been so much better.
13:25
Gosh. OK.
13:25
So we've got two fairly clearviews there, Joe.
13:30
I think you're both mad, honestly.
13:33
I think this is colourful, bombastic.
13:36
It's got big memorable villains, great monsters, it's got humour,
13:42
it's got unforgettable set pieces in it and it's got a
13:45
really vivid Dr. I fell in love with Colin when I was a kid,
13:48
right? I absolutely adored it.
13:49
I've talked about it recently on Sy Hearts One and I came at 22
13:54
Piece Meal because the videos came out all over the place and
13:58
every single time I got a new Colin that was like, that was
14:01
the one I seized upon. Even the twin dilemma, you know
14:04
when that was the Woolworths exclusive.
14:06
Do you remember that I remember dashing into Woolworths past the
14:09
pick and mix and that never happened again to grab the the
14:13
twin dilemma you know exclusive one.
14:17
I think it's great. I I I'm not blind to its faults.
14:20
I I do think that the show probably did need to be rested
14:24
at the time. It was getting too violent.
14:27
I think the Michael grade recent interview where he said you know
14:31
what, it didn't have enough money.
14:33
Well mate you were the one that could have give them more money.
14:35
But anyway, if I did look cheap in places and he said they
14:39
replaced a decent looking production with gratuitous
14:43
violence in order for it to stand out.
14:46
And I do think a lot of that is happening and it goes too far,
14:49
quite a lot in this season. As a kid I loved it.
14:52
As an adult I'm like would I put a kid in front of that, Which
14:56
goes to show you how you change over time.
14:58
But I do think it's really, it's like Doctor Who taking to the
15:00
Max. It's, it's it is camp.
15:03
It is over the top. It is colourful.
15:05
It does have a big brash Dr. in it.
15:08
It's kind of unforgettable. I'm glad they went there and I'm
15:11
glad they never went there again.
15:13
So I love it, but I completely understand why.
15:17
It's a bit much for some people. I'm a bit much for some people,
15:20
so maybe that's you know. You are the living embodiment.
15:24
Of season 22. There you go.
15:27
Yeah, I agree. It's it's a very schizophrenic
15:30
season, isn't it? For every high you have a low,
15:33
for every fantastic set you have a terrible set.
15:36
For every good effect, you've got a bad effect.
15:38
I won't say for every good story you've got a bad story because I
15:41
don't think the ratios quite lined up that well.
15:44
But I think I'll probably end up more in Joe's camp and past.
15:48
That's nostalgia. So Joe, you were doing your row
15:50
levels. This was my first year at
15:52
university for me, so I was away at university for first year.
15:57
Absolutely. Having a terrible time at
15:59
university, Came home for the weekends to make sure I take
16:02
Doctor Who had a far worse time coming home, which is a much
16:06
longer story and not one for today.
16:08
But this was my bit of light in a very miserable existence at
16:12
that time and it was an absolutely shining light and I
16:15
loved it at the time. I had a great big picture in my
16:18
university and my halls of Colin and Nicola, and I just love this
16:22
series. I thought it was great going
16:24
back over the years. I probably have ebbed and flowed
16:28
a little bit watching it now as a whole, for this, I'm watching
16:31
one after the other again. I feel uncomfortable with the
16:35
number of stabbings in particular.
16:37
I think given where we are in society today, the number of
16:40
knives and stabbings just feel so uncomfortable, particularly
16:45
when you do watch them. Because obviously, as I'm sure
16:47
we all do, you go in and you cherry pick over the years and
16:50
you saying you watch the Aztecs one minute, twin dilemma the
16:53
next, you don't necessarily sit down and watch the full season
16:57
and start to end do. You know, when you think about
17:01
the the graphic content in this now as I was watching this
17:04
season through, I kept saying to my Ralph, that would never be
17:08
shown now, that would never be shown now.
17:10
And I must have done that about 50 times watching this season
17:13
through. So that really does show you how
17:16
things have changed. It is.
17:17
It's knife after knife after knife.
17:18
Whereas you're not, you know, older, older Doctor Who was all
17:21
laser beams and, you know, deaths off screen.
17:24
This is very obvious and it is very graphic.
17:28
And bear in mind, this was going out at 5:20 on a Saturday.
17:31
Before we head into round one, let's pick up another a set of
17:35
comments from our listeners. Frank Colissimo hope I
17:38
pronounced that correctly. So Season 22 makes you feel like
17:41
the Doctor is a player in a big, gritty, dark, hyper realistic
17:45
space opera. More Akins are Blake, 7 and
17:47
Doctor Who. The various hints about the
17:49
Doctor's old acquaintances who populate this universe are all
17:52
new to us, and this helps make the tapestry of the series feel
17:56
so much bigger than the more parochial areas of the past.
17:59
Coupled with the comics and annuals of the time, the whole
18:02
who experience feels grander and a little more mature.
18:06
David Gillespie Pratt says some great ideas and entertaining
18:09
episodes, but so many stories have structural problems.
18:13
The 45 minute format doesn't work as well as it should, and
18:16
too many stories where the Doctor and Perry take ages to
18:18
join in. I could go on, but I won't
18:20
because despite the flaws, I really enjoy this season and
18:24
that's down to Colin and Nicola who do their darndest to make it
18:26
work. The 6th Doctor owns the series
18:29
and the way the 5th didn't, and it's all the more interesting
18:31
for it. James Lark says it's a more
18:34
varied and interesting season than any of Davidsons.
18:36
There's a lot of a lot of Davidson bashing going on here,
18:40
and for the first time in four years, they've remembered it's
18:42
meant to be fun. Sure, there are some tonal
18:45
issues, but Baker and Bryant throw themselves into it in a
18:48
way. The dialogue doesn't always
18:50
deserve time. Lash, of course, is pants, but
18:53
look at everything else you get gangsters and Cybermen.
18:56
High concept, political and social satire, A beautifully
18:59
realised 19th century setting. Patrick Troughton And what are
19:03
the series Boasts the finale. This well mounted.
19:06
John Benzalia says a generally very good season with one or two
19:10
guilty pleasures. While I don't mind the violence,
19:12
the relentless Archie Bargie between the Doctor and Perry
19:15
gets tedious very quickly. Plus, the ward is clearly
19:18
thinking about handing in his notice, pronto.
19:22
Daniel Knight says nostalgia can sometimes blind me to the fault
19:25
of the season. It's afflicted by a script
19:27
editor who's taken against the new leading actor and attempts
19:30
to belittle and restrict the character of the Doctor.
19:33
Colin is wonderful despite this. Mark Donaldson says Doctor Who
19:37
for self-conscious teenagers who don't want to still be watching
19:41
a kids TV show. Grim and dark, but also does
19:44
interesting things. However, it lacks A reassuring
19:47
Tardis team to tell us it's all going to be OK.
19:50
Even Holmes's darkest and most gory 70s script had that.
19:55
Dan Pin said. Personally, I'm rather fond of
19:57
this season. Yes, it has faults, but it's
19:59
never dull, boring. Colin is always magnificent.
20:02
Despite a script editor who seems to dislike this TARDIS
20:05
team, JNC is still pulling in great guest casts Morris
20:09
Colborne, Martin Jarvis, Kate O'Mara, and Paul Darrow, to name
20:12
a few. Andrew Kernow says What strikes
20:15
me most is the myth of the Doctor being unlikable.
20:18
There's a particular smile Colin gives usually to Perry Woman
20:22
Friendly, which makes it clear that his bark is worse than his
20:25
bike. All of the stories have a sort
20:27
of could be better tinge, but there's still lots to enjoy and
20:30
what we get. And finally for this group,
20:33
James H says massively represented as being too violent
20:36
in the media, based on Mary Whitehouse lies and reports who
20:39
couldn't be asked to track facts.
20:41
It's possibly trying for Season 7.
20:43
Great without the charm. Ditch say would and it would
20:46
have been magnificent. That's.
20:48
Kind of what Joe said. Right.
20:50
So let's get into round one. So this is where we're going to
20:54
go round and one of us is going to champion or condemn a
20:58
particular story. And your job is to control the
21:01
rest of the panel, either to your way of thinking, or we'll
21:04
just disagree with you. It's highly likely if I'm
21:09
honest, I think. It might be with us.
21:10
Yeah. Let's start with Joe.
21:14
Joe, take your story of choice and tell us why you're
21:18
congratulating or condemning it. I've been a champion time lash.
21:22
I. Knew.
21:23
Somebody was going to champion time Lash.
21:26
Stephen's head has just exploded.
21:29
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I champion sleep no more.
21:33
So Joe knows I don't. You did.
21:36
You did? First of all.
21:40
Paul Darrow I thought this is this is miss.
21:45
You know, you hear about that, he comes in and he just comes in
21:48
and he's cheering the furniture and everything.
21:51
And I honestly thought it was going to be like levels of carry
21:54
on Cleo sort of over the top acting, you know, he was going
21:58
to go all in for me, in for me. To me, he was more, much more
22:01
than he was obviously having a whale of a time, you know, like
22:04
the only person who was actually enjoying being there.
22:07
And to me, some of the actors in that look like they're only in
22:11
it because this is part of their community service for something
22:13
they've been for. You know.
22:17
Doing it because of that. But he.
22:20
Is having such a good time. He it like in everything.
22:25
He lights up the screen. He has all the best lines he's
22:30
having. It's like somebody.
22:33
Sent me the clip where he's going, you know while I'm in it,
22:35
the minute I die, turn off. It's boring and you feel get to
22:39
that when he sort of, you know he's dies it's like Oh dear.
22:44
But why he's there. He's having a whale of a time
22:48
you cannot. It's like every time it's
22:50
working, anything he's in, you cannot take your eyes off him.
22:54
He's just like these presents that just sort of like lights up
22:58
everything. And he has some of the best
23:00
lines and he's just like, I love him in that.
23:04
I've only got one thing to say to you.
23:07
Yeah. And you are the traitor.
23:10
He's great. He's so great.
23:13
Most people don't. He's just strictly come hamster
23:16
with a scream. One pleasant journey.
23:22
God, yeah. Let's not talk about the
23:24
dialogue, all right? I like the sort of the poems
23:26
about it, the sort of like it's very Nazi Ish.
23:30
It's very Nazi Germany on Car Phil.
23:35
In a way, you've got the whole sort of the Borat.
23:38
I mean, you can't get any more obvious than the fact that his
23:41
real name is Megalon, which is an anagram of Mingala.
23:45
You think, oh, you know, you've got Nazi experimentation going
23:48
on in there, which is sort of like very much sort of in the
23:51
zeitgeist. I mean, you've only got a few.
23:53
It's only a few years since the whole boy's from Brazil thing
23:56
where you've got the Nazis off experimenting in the jungle and
23:59
everything and then you've got the others like the first mail
24:03
in you're saying he's he's, he's an obvious sort of like
24:07
collaborates because it's like oh pull the plug.
24:10
Oh but my wife, oh never mind I'll do that anyway because
24:13
you're the bosses and I'm doing as I'm told.
24:15
I like that overtones and there's that sort of vibe that
24:19
as I said before it sort of runs through the season.
24:21
You know you've got like the sciences, the purity, the making
24:26
everybody better. You know obviously the Daleks do
24:29
that. The Cybermen do that.
24:31
You've got the ball around wanting to turn Perry into his
24:34
whatever. Are you trying to say Eric
24:36
Saywood is really Adolf Hitler? Is that where is that where
24:40
we're heading with that? I feel an argument could be made
24:42
you. Know you might be saying that
24:44
Rod Odent, because I don't, I don't have a novel, I don't have
24:49
a good enough law yet. You know this as I said in the
24:54
new series, that would be the whole thing.
24:57
That would be like the under running theme throughout it.
25:00
And you can see what that would be like today.
25:03
That would very much be like, you know finalists of the
25:07
season. You know, whole things revealed.
25:10
I love the makeup and the mask on the ball red.
25:13
I think that's excellent work. It also says something very bad
25:17
about car falling away because they can't, you know, he can't
25:21
be doing himself in public because everyone go, oh you're
25:24
hideous. He's not that hideous.
25:26
I mean he's not mess. He's not mess store.
25:28
Now, mess store is hideous, still is hideous.
25:33
The bore ad is well, it's disfigured, which is another
25:36
thing that nowadays, you know, it's that old trope about, oh,
25:39
if you're disfigured, you evil. And that's that's a whole other
25:44
web that I don't want to go into right now.
25:46
But that even goes on today. You've got the whole sort of the
25:49
Batman thing, the Bond villain thing, where they started.
25:52
I mean, that's a whole cattle fish have been.
25:54
Huge now, isn't it? Disability equals evil.
25:57
That's that's that's very much in the zeitgeist at the.
25:59
Moment. I mean I was, I was listening to
26:01
you and Paul talking about your the One episode and that is the
26:06
whole thing you know about the sorts of which is another
26:08
argument. Well we can do another time but
26:11
for all the negatives of time mash, as I said before in all of
26:16
these stories you think well and there's some terrible acting in
26:20
it. Oh my God, there's some terrible
26:21
acting but. He's dangling on the edge of
26:24
oblivion. I looked at that and I thought,
26:28
you're saying that like you lied.
26:29
The books overdue love. I mean, get a bit more
26:31
enthusiastic. Oh dear, we haven't got tea
26:37
bags. There's enough to sort of keep
26:41
you interested in it. I mean, so that's my champion of
26:44
time, Lash. And it's going to go in the bin
26:46
immediately, I know, but I think.
26:48
You might be surprised, Joe. Should we?
26:50
Go to. Listeners comments first.
26:53
Dan Penn says Time Lash is enormous.
26:56
Come fun. Professor Stephen Hawkwin It's
26:59
likely due to nostalgia being the first old whose story I saw
27:03
and owned on video. But Jador?
27:05
Time Lash. That's a hill I will die on.
27:08
Darren Lit, Randall says. All rather hopeless, but moments
27:12
in isolation can be amusingly awful.
27:15
And it does have a master class from Paul Darrow.
27:18
I keep saying Steve was shaking his head in despair.
27:21
I can't. Wait to get to him.
27:22
Darren McKay says Time Lash is a low point, but even then, the
27:26
concept of the Time Lash itself and the well was elements of the
27:30
story plus the look at the Android.
27:32
Give it something. Gareth Crowley says Poor Time
27:36
Lash Here's a lot of love for a Time Lash out here.
27:38
Poor Time Lash gets buried under the pull factors of Cybermen.
27:42
Still Rani, Master Sontaran, Second Doctor, Jamie and Daleks
27:46
that are included in all the other stories around it.
27:49
Michael Stormer says ridiculous dialogue, bad costumes and a
27:52
ridiculous story. It feels like it should be a
27:55
satire on how the not we think Doctor Who is like, but it is
27:59
not witty, clever or well made enough to pull that off.
28:03
Lucy McCall said the theme of Perry being lusted after is
28:06
getting really tiresome and creepy.
28:07
By now I'd have thought she'd be more bothered by the Bora trying
28:10
to splice her with a dinosaur and force her to marry him
28:14
rather than be revolted by his face, but I suppose his self
28:17
loathing is part of the plot. I like her but though.
28:20
And the best color goes to Big Orange Markle, who says worst
28:24
this time Lash Paul Darrow makes some great acting choices.
28:29
There were no air quotes around the world.
28:31
Great. So I'm going to take that as
28:33
being ironic. Please, will you have this to
28:35
Steven, please? Absolutely.
28:37
Steven. You're he's on the time.
28:39
Lush, please. Oh God, I feel like I have to
28:42
provide the voice of reason here in amongst the madness.
28:46
And I might be outnumbered, but if there's a community of, you
28:50
know, 1000 people, and four of them are wise people and 996 of
28:54
them are certifiable fools, I don't want to take a vote in
28:56
that community. So.
29:01
But but I don't think Paul Darrow's performance is the
29:05
problem at all. I I don't think it's any
29:07
different, for instance, to Peter Miles's Nida, which is a
29:10
recognized masterpiece in Genesis of the Dialects.
29:13
I think it's equally as camp and equally as art.
29:15
And there's no. There's no, I don't think
29:18
actually there's too many performances, if any, during
29:21
season 22 where they've got a guest actor on who has got some
29:25
serious chops and it's a recognized name and and and I
29:28
don't think any of them do a particularly poor job.
29:31
Paul Darrow's name is being besmirched, I think unfairly in
29:34
Time Lash because he actually puts in, I feel a perfectly
29:39
pitched performance for what is well, you know, it's not the
29:44
greatest of stories, but it is camp sci-fi and there's room for
29:48
in Doctor Who for that. There's no doubt about it.
29:51
So I don't think it's Paul Darrow's performance that is the
29:53
problem. Joe's wonderful sort of
29:57
perceptive comment around eugenics being a recurring theme
30:00
throughout Season 22 is also really interesting.
30:02
And I I'm too young to sort of pick up on the zeitgeist of the
30:07
the early 80s. But there must have been
30:08
something in the air, right? There must have been something
30:10
some 40 years after the end of the Second World War where this
30:14
was a recurring motif perhaps, or area of interest.
30:18
And it's fertile ground for dystopian science fiction,
30:21
right? The the whole idea of
30:23
establishing a master race and racial purity and all that sort
30:27
of garbage is, is is really can be explored through a sci-fi
30:32
story like Time Lash. So that isn't necessarily the
30:36
problem either. The makeup is actually really
30:38
great. I think the BORAD facial mask is
30:42
probably as good as anything that we've seen Doctor Whoever,
30:46
so I don't think that's the problem.
30:48
So what is the problem with with?
30:50
Time. Should we just stand there,
30:51
Steven? Yeah, that.
30:54
Was a triumphant defense of time Lash.
30:58
Thank you. Very much so.
30:59
I can't. I can't.
31:01
I can't argue against Joe on any of those points.
31:04
I think ultimately, and if I can sort of sum it up in a sentence,
31:06
it's that time Lash is the Galaxy 4 of 1980s Doctor Who.
31:11
That's as inconsequential, as flat, as dull, as uninspired and
31:16
as out of date a piece of sci-fi as you can put on ideas.
31:20
Television. And I think when people think
31:23
about Doctor Who and they're not necessarily fans and there's
31:27
that sort of always a cheap teddy show on the Bbci think
31:30
this is one of those texts and one of those examples that
31:34
probably goes a long way to defining that stereotype in the
31:37
public imagination of the not way.
31:39
Case closed. Out of date, Definitely.
31:42
I mean, I didn't ever think of it that way, but actually now,
31:45
yeah, it feels like it has come out of the 60s on it.
31:47
Time Lash Oh. Probably the 40s even, right.
31:50
Yeah, this is this is a a beef beef you know Hollywood sort of
31:54
beef film made on zero budget as as those sort of films were as
31:59
well. And yeah, it's it just looks
32:01
tired. I do wonder, you know, if those
32:04
B movie producers might have actually turned away this
32:06
scripts though in the in the tallies and 50s.
32:09
Oh, I don't. Know the risk of like, sorry,
32:13
the risk of like shooting my own argument down.
32:16
I mean some of it, if you've ever seen any of those BBC
32:19
Shakespeare's. Oh, we talked about that a few
32:22
weeks ago. Yes, there were.
32:24
So there's some parts where it's very, I mean, especially with
32:27
those, the car felions or wandering around with them
32:30
wearing their sheets. And that is a sort of, like,
32:33
very sort of, like stuff I remember watching at school on
32:36
the big telly, sort of, you know, oh, we're going to watch
32:38
the Shakespeare today. And you're going, oh God, no.
32:44
I I I. Mean you might agree with.
32:46
I can agree with everything Stephen says on the sort of
32:49
like, you know, for the positives that I can say I agree
32:52
totally with, you know, lots of things you're.
32:55
Camping in this. World.
32:59
You could be entirely responsible for this, heading
33:01
down the time lash. You know there's nothing perfect
33:03
in this world, Joe, but there's few things as imperfect as Time
33:06
lash in this world, let's be honest.
33:09
Joe, what's your, what's your take?
33:11
Are you supporting? Time like sure.
33:13
Oh, it's going Jesus Christ. It's by far the weakest of
33:17
including the twin dilemma. It's by far the weakest of this
33:20
bunch. I mean a script put together of
33:25
more hackneyed cliches of science fiction I have never
33:28
seen. It's all in there.
33:31
All of it. Oh God.
33:32
Time portals for another realm with myths becoming reality.
33:37
Herbert Wells, you know the historical part of it.
33:41
The rebels in the caves. Like you name every terrible
33:44
cliche that the not we thinker in science fiction is in there
33:48
somewhere. You know, a camp over the top,
33:50
villain. A dictator.
33:53
No budget. You know, everything that the
33:55
not we would fear is there. But actually I don't think the
33:58
script is time lashes biggest problem.
34:00
I think it's Pennant Roberts's direction where now you talk
34:03
about somebody out of place. Pennant Roberts was a poor
34:07
director in the 70s. In the 80s when he's sort of
34:10
rubbing shoulders with people like Matthew Robinson and Graham
34:14
Harper and people like he just can't keep up.
34:18
Like his action sequences in Time Lash are even more
34:23
lackluster than they were in Warriors of the Deep and in
34:25
Warriors of the Deep, it was just a bunch of soldiers
34:28
standing in a line, walking very slowly up a corridor being
34:31
picked off. Oh, it's so terrible.
34:34
It's it's really badly designed this as well.
34:37
It's lots of flat, matte corridors that aren't
34:40
interesting to look at with odd details put in, like that weird
34:43
sofa that turns up in every Blake seven episode, and some
34:47
weird pot plants that apparently spit in your face.
34:50
It's just so cobbled together this it feels like Revelation of
34:54
the Daleks. In order to make that as stylish
34:57
and sumptuous as it was, something had to be sacrificed.
35:01
And Time Lash is unfortunately, the the one on the block.
35:05
Then I learn that Time Lash actually had a slightly bigger
35:08
budget than Revelation of the Daleks.
35:10
And then I realized precisely that the director, someone came
35:14
on Hamster once and told me the director cannot make a
35:16
difference in Classic Who. If Time Lash has a bigger budget
35:19
than Revelation of the Daleks, then the director can absolutely
35:22
do that. And my last thing, my my the
35:26
worst thing about this by a mile.
35:28
I've talked about this so much lately is the use of Perry
35:31
Perry, who has some good moments this season, I think, and
35:36
especially in the next story, especially revelation.
35:40
But Jesus Christ, all she is is a victim in this.
35:43
The scenes of her tied up to the whatever that gas is called with
35:48
that enormous bloody penis monster savaging her from the
35:52
shadows that it is possibly than the dear of who.
35:56
In terms of how it's shot, in terms of how it's written and in
36:00
terms of like sexual politics, it's appalling on every level.
36:04
I feel so sorry for Nicola Bryant because Big Finish proved
36:08
what a superb actress she is and the opportunities that she was
36:13
not given in this script. It's just unpardonable, so time
36:19
lash for crimes against scripting direction.
36:23
The bit in that that I think is even worse is like go on.
36:26
So the bit in that that I think is even worse, just Joe
36:28
championing it again, is that bit where they put that thing
36:31
around her neck and it looks like she's been caught by a dog
36:34
catcher. Yeah, that's the bit I'm talking
36:37
about. That's the bit.
36:38
I'm talking about that bit where they've got they're dragging
36:39
along and I just thought, oh, forgot how she didn't quit.
36:43
How she quit, I don't know, because I think you've seen
36:46
that. I would have gone.
36:47
No, thank you. I realised this has happened
36:51
with a blood penknife still. And so to say that I feel as if
36:54
somebody's appalling wank fantasies were being fulfilled
36:58
during those scenes, as Perry is being dragged around by, it's
37:01
just awful. So do you know what?
37:03
I do think it's camp. I do think it's quite fun in
37:05
places. It's got 100 ideas in it, so it
37:07
doesn't really, you know, it doesn't.
37:10
It doesn't bore you too long because it's always moving on to
37:12
something else, but it's just such an inept piece of
37:16
television that for that reason I would, I would Kick It Out.
37:20
Though it's going so my my opinions are superfluous in
37:24
this. I was going to mount a bit of a
37:26
defensive because I hear everything you say, Joe, and
37:31
it's funny I've written down some of the things you you must
37:33
have read my notes. I mentioned penis monster.
37:36
I mentioned Perry being used as a very old school 1940s tied to
37:41
the railway line and screaming absolutely there is a lot of
37:46
dross in this. There is no getting away from
37:48
that. But I think there are some
37:52
positives in there. Joe's picked on some of them.
37:54
But again, kind of viewing the rest of the seasoning context is
37:58
one of the very few stories and I say probably this and only
38:01
time of the Ronnie where we're not relying on gratuitous shocks
38:05
or gratuitous violence. It's a fairly straightforward
38:08
story and it's got one thing in common with Venged on Barros,
38:12
that there was the only two stories that don't rely on you
38:15
knowing the continuity ad nauseam of Doctor Who.
38:18
So it's quite fresh. It's quite accessible from that
38:21
point of view. Yes, we have the references back
38:23
to the Third Doctor and Joe. I mean how?
38:25
The What does she know Joe Grant is?
38:27
Do they sit there looking for old photo albums in the TARDIS?
38:30
I was terrible at but. And why does Paul Darrow's
38:34
attacker say, oh, it's just the one of you travelling this time?
38:37
That's very odd, particularly when we've got a continuity
38:41
supporter working in the production office.
38:43
He would have thought he would have known that.
38:45
Apparently that was originally supposed to be William Hartnell,
38:47
so it was supposed to be referring back to Barbara, Ian
38:51
and Susan. But they changed the script to
38:53
perk. We, for whatever reason, no one
38:55
thought about changing the script.
38:57
So but it's not, it's not overly dependent on continuity, it's
39:01
not dependence on violence. It's a fairly linear,
39:05
straightforward script, which we don't get a lot of this season.
39:09
I'm going to talk about the scripting later on and where I
39:12
think season 22 goes hideously wrong.
39:14
This is one of the few examples where actually we have got a
39:16
story that progresses from A to B to C In terms of the pure
39:21
plotting and narrative, it's probably one of the stronger
39:25
stories in terms of yes, it tells a story that progresses
39:28
and develops. So from that point of view,
39:32
there is some defense, there are some hang.
39:34
On hang on, hang on. Yeah, part of your defence is it
39:37
has a plot that progresses well, that should be a basic for any
39:41
story. I think when we get to some of
39:43
the rest of season 22, we'll find that they don't have that.
39:46
Trouble with time lashes is because it has a AA double
39:49
conclusion. It goes from A to M to Z and
39:53
then back to M again. It's very odd.
39:56
It is very odd. There is some nice twists in
39:58
there. You've got the HG Wells twist,
40:00
you've got the Borah being the Loch Ness Monster, fairly
40:02
groaning. But they do what they do in the
40:04
modern celebrity historicals, particularly like with Unicorn
40:07
and The Wasp. We see what influenced HG Wells
40:10
to to write his story, so we see the influence of the Invisible
40:14
Man with Use the Contour on Crystal.
40:16
Obviously you've got Ireland to Doctor Murrow with the
40:18
experimentation and very clearly you've got The Time Machine, so
40:21
that's quite a nice little twist.
40:23
I'll go for. It.
40:25
I'm so sorry. You did say I was allowed to do
40:27
that, but the new series would drop at the beginning.
40:30
But that is Herbert, Jaws, Wells.
40:32
And then we were picking up the references as we go along.
40:35
Time. Lash makes the bizarre choice of
40:37
saving that for the climax. So where you've gone?
40:40
Oh God, what did we watch? What cliches were in there?
40:42
I can't remember. It's a really odd choice.
40:44
Are you? Surprised.
40:45
I mean, I picked it up straight away.
40:46
I must have met on first time watching.
40:48
He says his name's Herbert. He mentions that he's written a
40:51
couple of books. I think it's fairly to me, I
40:54
think it's fairly. Obviously it wasn't very well
40:55
read. I I just refuse to believe that
40:58
Herbert George Wells would be that wet, if I'm honest.
41:01
No, fair enough. He's he's not a bad I I like
41:04
Herbert. I think David Chandler gives a
41:05
good performance and I think seeing the 6th Doctor work with
41:09
the male companion is quite interesting because Perry is
41:12
completely sidelined for this adventure.
41:14
She's tied up and screaming. So it's quite nice to see that
41:17
6th Doctor male companion dynamic.
41:20
I think that works quite well. And there's Paul Darrow.
41:23
Yes, I love him. I think he's doing a magnificent
41:25
job on paper, the characters as bland as could possibly be.
41:29
But Paul Darrow brings it to life.
41:31
He's hamming it up for all he's worth.
41:33
And I think that works really well.
41:36
Production is really hard to defend.
41:37
The production, isn't it? Like you said, Joe, the
41:39
direction when when people are stood in a room literally 5
41:43
millimetres away from each other firing and they miss you.
41:47
Can't miss it. My favorite bit of course if you
41:49
haven't and I'm sure you've all seen it, is mail in Remis in the
41:53
power room. When he moves the switch and
41:55
actually pulls the switch off, the control stands there and
41:59
then tries to jam it back on the control whilst delivering a
42:02
line. What does Pennant say?
42:04
He doesn't say. Let's go again, he goes.
42:05
All that why they didn't got out their nose.
42:07
Once you've seen it you can't Unsee it.
42:10
Obviously the Christmas decorations inside the Time Lash
42:13
are painful, but then you know I quite like the bandrules.
42:17
Why not have a glove puppet as an alien?
42:20
You know Star Wars does it. Why not?
42:23
The make up on the Borad is a million times better than the
42:26
cross eyed carpet that we have with Mestor.
42:29
The Android is different and unique.
42:32
There's stuff in here it's very hard to defend, but in terms of
42:37
telling a fairly unremarkable but equally UN violent story,
42:45
fairly simplistically and actually, I know this is an
42:48
absolute rabbit hole that people go on to on Twitter, but the AIS
42:52
and the ratings for this were pretty strong compared to the
42:54
rest of the season. The public didn't think that
42:57
this was an absolute out and out clang.
42:59
It's a fairly straightforward Doctor Who story.
43:01
Does it belong more in an annual?
43:03
Yes, it probably does, but but compared to some of the other
43:06
stuff around there, I would give it a pass.
43:07
But clearly it's been voted out first, so.
43:10
Wasn't it when Time Lash Aid or was made?
43:13
Wasn't that when it dropped that the show was going on hiatus?
43:17
No, I was joined the two doctors.
43:19
Oh, OK. I will.
43:20
Just before time Lash. I like look, yeah, we know
43:22
what's coming is really shit. But don't worry, I ain't coming
43:24
back for a long time. So, probably unsurprisingly,
43:28
time lash is the first to fall. Two people defended that and
43:32
loads of people in the comments. So that's a fair show for Time
43:36
Lash, I think, given it's considered the nadir of Doctor
43:39
Who. Well.
43:39
Somebody, well, somebody had to go.
43:41
So I thought exactly. So Stephen, after your savaging
43:45
of time, Lash would you either going to pick to champion or
43:49
condemn? Yes, thank you.
43:51
I would love to actually champion a story, but before I
43:54
do, can I just say that anything that I say tonight is really
43:58
it's I'm never going to change anyone's mind which they've seen
44:01
this. You know, as you had Rod at a
44:04
period of time where you most needed it or you were just
44:06
enjoying it or into the show when season 22, you know, had
44:10
your doctor and companion. You know, I can't compete
44:12
against that. All I can say is that this is a
44:14
series or season of Doctor Who that I came to just as I was
44:17
starting to develop that sort of adolescent teenage criticality,
44:20
that critical factor that sort of makes you think, hang on a
44:23
second, not all of Doctor Who is good after all.
44:25
Lizard and. And maybe actually that's why
44:29
I've been so negative in the past about about season 22
44:33
because it sort of coincides with the period where Oh yeah,
44:36
Doctor Who's a bit crap and I'm getting into football and
44:38
there's a World Cup on and girls and all the rest of it.
44:40
And it starts to be colored through those personal
44:44
experiences that are on the loves end of the spectrum
44:46
compared to people who you know like like Pete Lambert or you
44:49
know what Johnny Morris was was talking about before where they
44:51
absolutely adore it because it was the right thing at the right
44:54
time in their in their in that period of their lives.
44:57
So I just need to sort of get that out of the way, but I'd
45:00
love to champion if I could Vengeance on Pharos, which I
45:03
think is an 80s masterpiece. Wow, that is the last thing I
45:08
expected you to say. The use of the word masterpiece
45:12
is, yeah, bold. Absolutely accurate.
45:17
Go for it. Well, I think.
45:18
It does it, OK. If I would sort of distilled 3
45:21
things that that come out of that are absolutely wonderful.
45:23
There's that sort of contemporaneous sort of 1984 Big
45:27
Brother surveillance theme that runs through the story, which is
45:30
fantastic, but pressing in the sense that it sort of predicts
45:33
Big Brother, doesn't it? And Big Brother in the sense of
45:36
the television show, not necessarily the villain of of
45:40
the George Orwell piece. And so that kind of ubiquity of
45:46
surveillance television which then becomes a source of
45:48
entertainment, is so sinister and such a wonderful again,
45:52
fertile, grand for dystopian sci-fi that it's just brilliant
45:57
sort of idea. And it does sort of very much
46:00
sort of harken back to Philip Martin's gangsters, doesn't it?
46:04
Where I think it's Season 2, which I haven't seen yet
46:07
actually, but sort of goes into it explores those sorts of ideas
46:11
around television and the metatextuality of television as
46:13
well. Those cliffhanger.
46:15
The the well, the one cliffhanger, but also the the,
46:17
the, you call it cliffhanger, but the resolution of Part 2 as
46:20
well, the cut it there. It is so wonderfully postmodern.
46:25
It's it's better textuality that it is again, just a moment of
46:30
genius in Doctor Who. That's what makes it a
46:32
masterpiece in many regards I think.
46:35
Also, the other thing that I really noticed the last couple
46:39
of times I saw it again, this time that I saw watched it as
46:42
well, an implicit sort of understanding amongst fan law
46:46
that the 6th Doctor and Perry are in an impusive relationship.
46:49
I I think all of that is largely true, but it's the actors who
46:52
try to play against it every opportunity that they get.
46:56
And they're. I used the word glimmers before.
46:58
There's a number of glimmers throughout and there's one in
47:01
particular and it's the Doctor and Perry.
47:04
And they sort of, you know, sort of pop their heads around the
47:07
corner and say hi and it's like, Oh my God, that's them.
47:13
That's who they should have been.
47:14
That's that's the picture of the 6th Doctor and Perry that I saw
47:18
many years later, I guess. But I think it's that casting
47:22
call where where where Colin's in that wonderfully tailored
47:25
light jacket and Perry's looking at vision or Perry Nicholas
47:28
looking at vision as she does to this day, by the way.
47:31
And it's just like, Oh my God, these two look incredible.
47:34
He looks like a boxer and she looks like a glamorous, glamour
47:37
puss. This is going to be great, but
47:38
it doesn't. That kind of Sarah Jane, Tom
47:42
Baker Bible. You know, Purpley and Katy
47:45
Manning doesn't really translate to scream.
47:47
But it's not for the want of trying by the actors who are
47:51
desperately trying to bring their natural charisma and their
47:55
joy and love for the show and what they're doing.
47:57
And it comes through every now and then in those glimpses.
48:00
And that one is an example there as well.
48:02
The third thing that I would say I guess is there is there's a
48:07
lot to comment about this script in terms of the just the joy of
48:12
the the plotting and the writing.
48:14
The dialogue is is largely fantastic.
48:16
There's some claim is but if I were to sort of point to three
48:19
things that I think just three simple changes that you would
48:22
need to make to this that would make it a masterpiece, A
48:25
faultless masterpiece. I think fundamentally the
48:27
resolution needs to be something that's driven by the Doctor.
48:32
And if that's not the case, so I think that's some, you know,
48:36
something along the lines of the Doctor's got the entire planet's
48:39
audience watching him. He needs to be using that, you
48:43
know, the modes of production, if you like, the media against
48:46
the oppressive state and bring it down through exposing the
48:49
truth. That's just such an obvious way
48:54
of resolving this that I can't believe it didn't happen.
48:57
The bit on the scaffolding, Stephen, you know, the bit on
48:59
the scaffolding where he does that huge speech that should
49:02
have been, he goes hold on the broadcast and what it should
49:04
have been is that should have been broadcast.
49:06
I absolutely agree. Yeah, definitely.
49:09
The acid bath scene is largely indefensible in in the context,
49:16
not necessarily of the the text of the scene, but in the subtext
49:20
of the scene. Which I think is that the Doctor
49:22
Who now allows for Bondian quips and horrible deaths rather than
49:29
I guess what we see in the scene.
49:30
Which is that Doctor you know doesn't sort of doesn't sort of
49:33
gleefully skip away from it. But he he does sort of does sort
49:37
of express an element of regret but tends to forget that very
49:39
quickly when what it should have been is in maybe a moment of
49:42
realization for this Doctor that violence is not the way forward.
49:46
And if it was a moment in time where he could forswear violence
49:50
and we would have got a very different season 22 and a very
49:53
different six Doctor result. But I think that was that's a
49:56
missed opportunity. And I think the, the third one
49:59
that that probably sort of prevents this from being a
50:02
perfect script is the use of the deadly vines as a way to sort
50:06
of, you know, kill the, oh, I forget the the characters, but
50:11
it's just such a cheap and nasty way.
50:12
And it's like, have we learned nothing?
50:14
We've just gone through this horrible, you know?
50:17
Awful. Situation in this pleasure Dome
50:20
or whatever you want to call it. And at the end of it, it's it's
50:24
using violence against, you know a violent oppressive state which
50:28
you know, maybe has its merits in some regards, but it's just a
50:30
missed opportunity again, where it's just like, no, there should
50:32
have been another way. And I think if you change those
50:35
three very, very small things, it's a it's a matter of emphasis
50:38
perhaps or or even just simple rewriting of lines.
50:41
I think you do have an absolutely perfect Doctor Who
50:46
script, never mind the six Doctor script.
50:48
I think it's, I think it's a near on tribe and it's
50:50
definitely the best of this series season for me.
50:53
OK, a great spirit of defence. Can I jump in here?
50:57
And go for a judge. Oh, no, it's comments.
50:59
Yeah, sorry. Let's do the comments.
51:00
So Darren Randall said some interesting ideas, inventions on
51:04
Barras that would work on a play for today, but it's terrible
51:06
Doctor Who. Lucy Mccall's written as a
51:09
dissertation so I'm going to try and do it fast.
51:12
OK, Sorry Lucy Vengeance and Virus tries having the cake and
51:15
eating it. Trick by commenting on public
51:18
appetite for violence while being violent.
51:20
I was distracted by Jason Connery's biceps for the first
51:23
time. I watched it.
51:24
Me too Lucy, but now I've watched it as an adult.
51:27
I think it has good performances, especially from
51:29
the magnificent Martin Jarvis, who becomes by terms sympathetic
51:33
and vile as he tries to survive and actually achieve something
51:36
for Varos. And the gloriously horrible
51:38
Seal, unforgettably played by Nabil Shaban, Sheila Reid is
51:42
also great. I like how the story shows how
51:44
people might be ready to inform on each other.
51:46
Then there's the idea of voting to inflict pain.
51:51
I do have a bit of an issue with Baros being so isolated that
51:54
they don't know that they're being ripped off by seal, but on
51:56
the whole I like the story. Oh, and Owen Teal as Mardac is
52:01
gorgeous. In Capital Letters, Michael
52:04
Storm says best of the Season is benched on Barros, a solid
52:07
script from a good writer. Though I wonder if Philip Martin
52:10
was using Who, as he's the only real outlet to write a sci-fi
52:13
script for the BBC, still is a great creation, wonderfully
52:17
brought to life by Nabil. Michael Mills says Vengeance on
52:20
Virus has enough interesting ideas in it that it's easy to
52:23
convince yourself it isn't actually rubbish, a bit like the
52:27
season as a whole. Or, Quinn says vengeance,
52:29
despite the rotten ending, shows that Martin at that point was a
52:32
genuine find in terms of writers mind.
52:34
Wolf is also top stuff, very kinky.
52:38
But the witty comments the men dying in an acid bath along with
52:41
Litton's hands is a bad misstep which is going to be repeated.
52:45
Daniel Knight says if I dislike any of the stories, it's Varus,
52:48
which is a bit too cruel and sadistic.
52:50
Despite its cleverness. The cliffhanger is memorable and
52:53
Martin Jarvis is always excellent.
52:56
And finally, electronic dancers. This is a good story, but I find
53:00
the grimness and reality television aspect of putting.
53:04
Largely positive. Yeah.
53:06
So Joe, you were itching to get in there?
53:09
Yeah, well, I've got a couple of reasons why I love vengeance and
53:11
varas, although I do want to tell you a tale of youth.
53:14
I'm going to do a sigh heart here and tell you all about the
53:17
prison in space, which was a story I wrote back when I was
53:21
about oh, I must have been 12 and submitted it as one of my
53:27
assignments for English and it was basically an enormous knock
53:31
off of Vengeance and virus. I basically just changed the
53:34
characters names. I used all the dialogue, I used
53:38
all the set pieces, I drew the front cover which looks very
53:41
like parts and spengeance on Virus.
53:43
I've still got it home. I wanted to bring it out for
53:45
this and I couldn't find it. I thought you were going to say
53:48
that you wrote it before this went.
53:52
Out. I'm very pleased to say I got an
53:53
A minus and he said that I was very imaginative.
53:57
So I rest my no, no, I'm joking. But I did get an A minus and he
54:01
did say it was very imaginative. So that pleases me very much.
54:05
That vengeance and virus helped me get a good grade at school
54:08
because there was literally nothing in there of me.
54:10
As always, all Philip Martin. But my three reasons.
54:14
One, I think this is a terrific guest cast.
54:18
Absolutely terrific. Martin, Jarvis, Forbes, Collins.
54:22
You've got Sheila Reed, Stephen Yardley, Jason Connery.
54:26
I don't know who the fellow is who plays Quillham, but he's got
54:28
camp menace down to a pat, you know?
54:31
Nicola Shug Rim. Never heard of them before.
54:33
I want to hear them scream till I'm deaf with pleasure, you
54:38
know, he's having a great time. And of course I went till there
54:41
at the end, as Lucy just mentioned, and I think they all
54:45
acquit themselves brilliantly. They're all given good, strong
54:48
roles with great dialogue. Some of the scenes.
54:51
I absolutely love the bit where Martin Jarvis is pleading with
54:56
Maldac in the conclusion. That's basically the the best
55:01
scene in the conclusion. I think that's that's where the
55:04
revolution really starts, but just changing one person's mind
55:06
who's stuck in the system. It's a great scene.
55:09
I think you've got a brilliant doctor in this.
55:12
This is my Colin Baker. So he's angry, he's quick
55:15
witted, he's protecting the underdog.
55:18
He's scathingly accusing of Varos, especially in that
55:22
sequence on the scaffolding. He's like a punch in the face
55:26
compared to Peter Davidson. Would have not known what to do
55:30
on Varovs. He'd be a bit lost, I think.
55:32
Whereas Colin Baker, he's just pissed, isn't he?
55:35
And he's going to tear down this system of government if it kills
55:38
him, and it nearly does several times.
55:40
But he is also shown to be vulnerable, especially in that
55:43
brilliant cliffhanger where he's going through the dreadful
55:45
special effects, that sort of VR desert.
55:47
But the way Colin sells it, I mean, he effectively dies at the
55:51
climax, right? There's a big close up on his
55:52
face of the Doctor dead, which is really shocking.
55:56
And I like you said that Steven, about them peering their heads
56:00
around the door saying hello, hi, which is great.
56:02
But there's a bit as well where after Terry appallingly has been
56:06
turned into a budgerigar for some reason, the Doctor wakes
56:09
her up and he saw a cup in her face really gently and he's
56:12
handling her really gently and like at the end he's got his arm
56:16
round her in a way that Davidson never did with his companions.
56:20
There is something sort of tactile and gentle going on in
56:23
between all the toxicity, which I really, really like.
56:26
So I think it's got a great Doctor.
56:28
And yeah, Stephen already said about the the cliffhanger in the
56:31
middle, which, you know, it's effectively showing the kids how
56:35
they're fooled into a moment of excitement every single week by
56:39
Doctor Who, how it's all sort of edited together.
56:42
But I like the final scene even more, because it's basically the
56:47
four of us. If all the TV's go off, we just
56:51
sort of sit around looking at each other going, well, what the
56:54
fuck do we do now? You know, like and that's,
56:56
that's the conclusion they come to.
56:58
It's that. Bloody Chris Chipnall joke from
57:00
resolution again, it is done better.
57:03
But done better, Yeah. But I do love it when she's
57:05
like. We are the Wi-Fi family.
57:11
As we've proven today. But I love the lines though,
57:15
where he goes, no more torture executions, no what do we do?
57:19
And she suddenly looks really sort of like and then she goes,
57:23
I don't know, it's a great scene at the end.
57:27
So it's subversive, it's dramatic.
57:29
I do think it had great set pieces.
57:31
It's it's well directed for the time.
57:34
It certainly doesn't hold up today the direction, and I think
57:37
it suffers from being all in the studio, but it certainly
57:40
captured me as a kid, you know, all the violence and all of
57:43
that. I was a district little bastard
57:45
as a kid, so I loved all this stuff.
57:48
So, yeah, absolutely going through for me one of the
57:51
highlights. Well, I'm going to start mine
57:55
with a caveat. I think Toby coined the phrase
57:57
in our first show, The Cloister Bell of Caution.
58:00
I think for this podcast it should be The Santa Maria Bell
58:04
of Doom. I'm going to walk.
58:07
Ring the Warning Bell. The if in 198485 the production
58:12
office got a script that says what's this about?
58:16
Well, it's a prison planet. It's a colony for the criminally
58:19
insane, where the spectacle of death is that only
58:22
entertainment. People get thrown into acid
58:25
balls to make sure they're dead. When we watch their bodies
58:28
corrode and corrupt, bubble and burn what we really say, oh,
58:33
that's great. 520 Entertainment on a Saturday afternoon.
58:38
I think I tend to agree with what one of our listeners said.
58:41
Is this really Doctor Who. I'm going to park that bag
58:44
because that's kind of my, my concern that is this really
58:48
Doctor Who or is this something else?
58:50
Having said that, I do thoroughly enjoy this one.
58:53
I think a lot of what you two guys have said already is very
58:56
accurate. I think there's great world
58:58
building in this one. So we get to see usually when we
59:01
have kind of rebels fighting the rulers or the elite, it's quite
59:06
single minded, but I think we get a lot more color and texture
59:09
here. So at the top, yes, you've got
59:11
the politician, you've got the governor, then you've also got
59:13
the effectiveness, the what is effectively the civil servants,
59:17
so that the permanent staff there, so quilam and the chief,
59:20
they can't be replaced. They know that the governor's
59:23
just transitory, he can do what he likes.
59:25
They're the real powers behind the throne.
59:27
They're the civil servants that are pulling the strings and
59:30
they're the ones that are doing The Dirty deals with sill to
59:33
line their own pockets. Whilst the plan this is going to
59:35
hell, they've got complete contempt for the population,
59:38
they're just going to look after themselves, which is
59:41
interesting. So you've got kind of that
59:42
triumvirate at the top. You've got the independence
59:44
still, you've got the politician, and you've got the
59:47
civil servants. That's a lot more interesting
59:49
than just usual Box standard, Doctor Who.
59:52
These are the elite. Then you've also got the people
59:54
at the bottom, so you've got our connector, and they're kind of
59:57
acting as our Greek chorus, commenting on what's going on,
59:59
but they're also there to act as every man.
1:00:01
They're telling us what the Rosian society is really like
1:00:05
and what the people think. Yeah, they're they're worried
1:00:08
about informing on each other. I love the kind of interchanges
1:00:11
between them all when they talk about, you know, if you press
1:00:13
your button, I'm going to inform on you.
1:00:15
It's really. They're us, aren't they, Rod?
1:00:18
They're us. When he goes.
1:00:19
I like that one. The one with the funny clothes,
1:00:21
you know. I like the one with the blind
1:00:24
man. He wasn't blind.
1:00:27
Yeah, that was me watching the squid games last week, you know,
1:00:30
saying those lines exactly. Exactly.
1:00:34
So I think Philip Martin has got a lot to see it.
1:00:36
He's building a world and he has got a lot to say.
1:00:38
He comes across quite angry writer.
1:00:40
He's obviously having a go at politics at the time.
1:00:43
He's talking about greed at the time.
1:00:44
This was a time when Dallas and Dynasty were top of the TV
1:00:47
charts. It was all about money and greed
1:00:50
and still is kind of our counterpoint to that, showing
1:00:52
that greed is not necessarily good, but it's also right that
1:00:56
it is commenting upon our appetite or growing appetite at
1:00:59
the time for violence. Again, this was the period of
1:01:01
video nasties, but we are getting quite graphic violence
1:01:06
here. So there is something not quite
1:01:08
thought through in that is a doctor.
1:01:10
So the production generally, I think it's fantastic.
1:01:12
It's dark, it's Moody, which is really good.
1:01:15
People criticize the 80s as being overly lit and this is
1:01:19
very dark, very Moody. But why?
1:01:21
Why do we get 2 old men in nappies fighting?
1:01:24
I mean that that is just horrendous.
1:01:27
Those are those cringe moments that you watch when you're
1:01:30
trying to be a very serious 19 year old watching Doctor Who and
1:01:33
you've got two grown men go in nappies.
1:01:36
It's. That's the fourth thing I would
1:01:37
change. It's horrible.
1:01:39
You champion the nappies. No change.
1:01:40
The fourth thing I would change. You know, Rod.
1:01:44
I I went to a Saunda once, you know, and I was going down the
1:01:46
corridor between 1:00 room and another and two old men with
1:01:50
nappies sort of came lurching out of the shadows.
1:01:52
I felt as if I was in a real life version of vengeance.
1:01:55
Varos, sorry. Please continue.
1:01:57
No. So generally I'm saying there's
1:01:59
a terrible TARDIS scene at the beginning when the Doctor's
1:02:02
completely out of character giving up.
1:02:04
I think that's Eric, say would over align some TARDIS scenes,
1:02:07
which we'll come back to again and again during this.
1:02:10
But generally, no, it's a good one for me.
1:02:14
Oh, that means whatever you say is going through.
1:02:16
But let's see what you've got to say.
1:02:18
I. Agree with everything everyone
1:02:19
else has says I would get rid of this.
1:02:22
Wow. I know.
1:02:24
And why? Jason Connery.
1:02:26
That's the reason for getting paid terrible acting.
1:02:29
Yeah, he's got blonde hair. He's got a very pretty.
1:02:31
Face. He's got a very famous father.
1:02:33
He's got no talent whatsoever. If he ever sees Dad's playing
1:02:37
that role, that would be a very. I know you won't get Sean
1:02:39
Connery doing in it, but Can you imagine he's?
1:02:43
Just. Terrible.
1:02:43
And he's misses his easily become worse And then they're
1:02:47
supposed to be like oh you know oh a happy red ball.
1:02:49
So I just think oh please you know put them in an acid bath
1:02:52
get rid of them immediately. They just really annoy me.
1:02:55
I don't think the the whole thing about the violence and
1:02:58
it's not good but I think there are far worse things in this
1:03:01
series. Everyone seems to like everyone
1:03:04
seems to cone in on vengeance as being the very violent one you
1:03:07
know. But I think there's bits in
1:03:10
other stories that I found far worse than this in a way this
1:03:14
could sound strange. This is very nice.
1:03:16
It's a very 20 sixties feel about some of this.
1:03:19
Like the Doctor is very trouting in the way that the Doctor comes
1:03:22
in. He changes an entire society and
1:03:24
he like close, like okay, bye like yourself.
1:03:27
Nothing happens. And then there's those silent,
1:03:30
naked black men. Again, is not a trope that we
1:03:32
needed to come back. You know, I thought we got rid
1:03:34
of that in sort of like the 60s and the 70s.
1:03:37
That's a very sort of uncomfortable, perhaps it's, you
1:03:39
know, looking back on in now, it's a very uncomfortable thing.
1:03:43
I know Sil is supposed to be disgusting and he's unbucky.
1:03:47
It's incredible. You know it's a brilliant
1:03:48
character but he just personifies the way that sort of
1:03:52
violence and crude, he's so sexualized doing this.
1:03:56
You know he's another disgusting creature and he fancies Perry
1:04:00
and he just think you know when it gets goes on and on and on
1:04:03
but he I just he, you know physics you know that what they
1:04:06
wanted him to do was see me disgusting and horrible and
1:04:09
everyone's going, look he succeeded, but he's just a bit
1:04:12
too much for me and I really just go it's just like Oh no,
1:04:16
but I can. I mean, I love all the bits
1:04:18
about the whole Gogglebox, Big Brothers, squid games sort of
1:04:21
stuff, 1984. I love the fact, you know,
1:04:25
basically, you know she looked and Steven Yardley and like, you
1:04:28
know, like the dystopian version of Google Box.
1:04:31
You can imagine after it's like Google Box after a nuclear
1:04:34
Holocaust and they're sitting there watching it and there's
1:04:37
lots. I mean, like Martin Jobs is
1:04:39
brilliant as always, sort of in concepts.
1:04:43
But on those bloody stupid cars, how come has bloody?
1:04:48
Or they. Cars.
1:04:50
They come back to the puppiness patrol.
1:04:53
They're even worse than that. They are and.
1:04:55
It's just like, oh, for God's sake, yeah.
1:04:59
You weren't impressed by this, were you, Joe?
1:05:01
No. It's.
1:05:02
I mean. There is an unpleasantness to
1:05:04
it. I know what you're.
1:05:06
Saying. It's bleak.
1:05:08
It's incredibly bleak. It's one of those things that,
1:05:11
like, you feel like the Doctor's coming, like he's changed
1:05:13
everything. But is anything really going to
1:05:15
get better? I know you don't expect him
1:05:17
before miracles. You could say that about a lot
1:05:19
of Doctor Who stories. You know, Has he actually, You
1:05:23
know, he's got rid of like one disgusting thing.
1:05:26
You just wonder if whatever comes after that he's going to
1:05:29
be any better, it's. One of those stories where he
1:05:31
ducks out of the end and do you think, yeah, you think, is this
1:05:36
actually going to change? It's very Trouton, you know, to
1:05:39
mention Fraser Alert, if it's sort of like dominates us, you
1:05:43
just come in here. It's like any of those sorts of
1:05:46
like, I've come in, I've done all this stuff, you know, the
1:05:49
entire society has just been blown up.
1:05:51
And then it's like. Bye.
1:05:54
Out of here, just sing. With a terrible plum about
1:05:57
Perrier Water. Yeah.
1:05:59
Oh, for God's great. Oh yeah.
1:06:00
OK. So Paros is true.
1:06:02
So, Joe, hello, it's your turn to pick one.
1:06:06
Yes, I would like. I only condemn 2 stories this
1:06:10
season and the rest I am going to put through.
1:06:14
There's a bit of a spoiler and I wanted to chance to condemn
1:06:17
something and obviously Time Lash was one of them and the
1:06:20
other one is Attack of the Cybermen, which could have gone
1:06:23
either way if I'm honest, because I think like Joe has
1:06:27
said a couple of times, there is good and there's bad in this.
1:06:30
I think it is extremely well directed in parts of this story.
1:06:34
I think it uses the 6th Doctor and Perry well as well.
1:06:38
They have some great interactions in this.
1:06:42
It falls apart horribly in episode 2.
1:06:45
Episode one is pretty passable television, I think on a whole,
1:06:50
and episode 2 is just unwatchably bad.
1:06:53
OK, so my three things are #1, the music.
1:06:57
One of the most discordant, ugly, weird, unpleasant on the
1:07:03
year scores you're ever going to hear.
1:07:05
And if bringing in the Radiophonic Workshop was leading
1:07:08
up to this, then it was never worth doing in the what is all
1:07:12
that weird sort of blow offs that are going on throughout
1:07:14
this. It's so weird.
1:07:16
The Steptoe and Son theme tune, the this, the sort of he does
1:07:22
worse, sort of stressing the comedy moments and Murray Gold
1:07:26
and that is saying something. Yeah, so the music is utterly
1:07:30
detrimental to the story throughout.
1:07:33
It's just a horrible noise. And why JNT didn't he's not
1:07:37
above saying to a composer this this ain't good enough because
1:07:40
he did it on Paradise Towers. I've actually heard the
1:07:42
alternative Paradise Tower scores and it's better, but
1:07:44
there we go. Yeah, very, very annoying.
1:07:48
The second thing is please continuity.
1:07:51
Let's get Ian Levine away from the typewriter because all he's
1:07:54
doing is sabotaging the show that he professes to love.
1:07:58
This is a very bizarre amalgam of The Invasion, the 10th
1:08:02
Planet, and Tomb of the Side Men.
1:08:04
With so much exposition, we literally have to hang out in a
1:08:09
TARDIS cupboard for 5 minutes while we regurgitate the plots
1:08:14
of 60s stories like you can't. You can't capture the magic of
1:08:18
the 60s by mimicking what they did in a really bad fashion,
1:08:23
right? What they should have done has
1:08:24
been inspired by those things and done their own thing and
1:08:28
instead they just think by throwing in all this bullshit
1:08:30
from the past that that's going to be enough for kids.
1:08:34
You know that's going to get all exciting now apart from.
1:08:36
And I I listen to Toby Haydock's attack on the side me I think
1:08:39
and that works on him. It works a treat you know.
1:08:42
But now it just feels so self indulgent.
1:08:44
It lacks any kind of originality.
1:08:46
This which is a shape apart from the kryons, which I I get what
1:08:51
they're trying to do. It's an interesting idea.
1:08:53
I don't think he's executed particularly well.
1:08:56
So that's another part of part 2's Vadnais and one of the
1:09:00
things I celebrated Invention of Arts is it's violence.
1:09:03
But I think this is just brutally violent, this story.
1:09:07
And when it comes to a point where you're having side men
1:09:10
being beheaded, when you've got men's hands being crushed with
1:09:13
blood all over the floor, you know, when you've got trials
1:09:17
being tortured and things like that, it it it crosses a line
1:09:21
into something that's a bit unpleasant to watch at times.
1:09:25
And totally unsuitable for this is, this is something that would
1:09:29
appear in Torchwood now, post watershed.
1:09:32
How this made it onto the TV at 5:30 baffles me, if I'm honest,
1:09:36
The end of the episode where Terry Malloy's character
1:09:39
basically has his skull smashed in by a Cyberman.
1:09:43
What were they thinking in the TARDIS?
1:09:45
Yeah, it's it's got a really unpleasant edge to this as well.
1:09:49
So, yeah, the music ain't great. It's the music's annoying.
1:09:53
The continuity is really annoying and the the violence is
1:09:58
unacceptable. So for those three reasons, I I
1:10:03
understand entirely why we went from 8.9 million viewers to 7.2.
1:10:08
Yeah, Joe, right. Listeners comments said there
1:10:11
are odds again with Sy Heart. Sy Heart says Attack is far
1:10:14
better than we ever give it credit for.
1:10:16
It's a great action adventure and highlight of Colin's era for
1:10:20
me. Electronic Dance says Attack
1:10:22
gets criticized for being too continuity heavy and alienating
1:10:25
people who don't know about the background.
1:10:27
But I don't get it. Remembrance has as much and a
1:10:30
faster pace and doesn't get criticized.
1:10:33
Remembrance uses though that continuity as building blocks to
1:10:38
tell a completely original story that it's superfluous.
1:10:43
Basically it's there to to sort of please the fan.
1:10:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is built out of
1:10:50
continuity. The bricks, the foundations of
1:10:53
attack of the sidemen is those old stories.
1:10:55
That's the big difference. London Calling says attack is an
1:10:58
exercise in trying to please a demographic who remember and
1:11:00
Revere the past, whilst adding very little to the now.
1:11:04
Paul Smy says a gritty and violent chiller exclamation
1:11:08
mark. Now and let Randall said.
1:11:10
I really enjoy part one mostly, but the pacing is off.
1:11:13
Part 2 is where I give up of this just so miserable.
1:11:16
It really is Lucy, McCall says. Attack must have, must have had
1:11:20
a big impact me as a child, because looking back, I thought
1:11:23
there were a lot of stories where people nearly got turned
1:11:25
into sidemen, but actually I'd only seen this one.
1:11:28
I like that there is a sort of redemption, albeit twisted, for
1:11:32
listen, and I remain convinced that Bryant Glover could take on
1:11:36
a side man on his own with no bummer at all.
1:11:39
Joke. She brings up a good point
1:11:41
there. Can I add another thing, please?
1:11:43
The redemption of Lytton that makes no sense whatsoever.
1:11:45
Who has behaved in such an appalling way for two stories?
1:11:50
And then the doctor's like, well, I've just started to
1:11:51
realise who you are. No, no, no, we know.
1:11:54
And the Doctor never even met him in Resurrection, which is
1:11:56
also a little bit of a problem. It's very, very odd anyway.
1:12:00
I said Stephen Hawking said they make a big deal about 10th
1:12:03
planets happening in the near future, but it doesn't pay off.
1:12:07
Same with the prisoners trying to steal a time machine.
1:12:09
Terry Malloy and Brian Glover get blinking.
1:12:12
You miss them deaths. And finally, Paul Quinn says
1:12:15
Attack frequently achieves greatness.
1:12:17
If they could ditch the bloody info dump scene in the TARDIS
1:12:21
cupboard and stop trying to be a sequel for ancient,
1:12:24
misremembered episodes, then it would have a much better
1:12:27
reputation, great direction and cast.
1:12:29
I don't disagree with that. And they almost make the 45
1:12:32
minutes work. Hey, so Steven, let's come to
1:12:35
you. Are you going to take Joe's
1:12:38
words or are you going to chunky on this one?
1:12:40
No, no, no. This goes into the trash can of
1:12:43
history as far as I'm concerned. Everything that you've said are
1:12:47
are all the points that I have here.
1:12:49
This is irredeemable. There are some some moments in
1:12:53
episode one that can be quite fun.
1:12:55
You know there's there's almost like a, whether it's Only Fools
1:12:58
and Horses or Minds or The Sweeney even kind of vibe to it
1:13:02
in terms of the the the diamond heist caper aspect.
1:13:05
But it's a story that doesn't know what it wants to be or what
1:13:08
he wants to do. And so it throws all these
1:13:10
things together including as you say Joe, the the continuity
1:13:14
aspects. And there's there's no synthesis
1:13:17
that arises from it. There's no creativity that
1:13:19
arises from it. It's just fan wank effectively
1:13:23
for for fan wanks sake and that's not a dramatically
1:13:27
feasible enough basis to tell any kind of story.
1:13:33
And it's disappointing because there there is a kernel of an
1:13:37
idea there that could be pretty cool.
1:13:40
You know, the return of Howie's Comet in 1986, coinciding with,
1:13:44
you know, Mondas and and the sort of Genesis, or the first
1:13:49
story, at least, of the Seidman and Doctor Who would be a nice
1:13:52
sort of way to round that off. But none of it really is central
1:13:57
or integral to the plot. Like it's just there in the
1:14:00
background and it's spoken about.
1:14:02
But does it actually? There's no, there's no payoff, I
1:14:06
guess, around it. Instead, you've got these sort
1:14:08
of crap Audi Home is in Double Act and Stratton and Bates,
1:14:13
where that entire plotline is a waste.
1:14:15
I think they they get far too much screen time and at the end
1:14:18
of it, what actually happens after they're being, you know,
1:14:21
horrible and shady and nasty and just just despicable to one
1:14:25
another. It's it's it doesn't do anything
1:14:28
to progress the plot. No, it absolutely doesn't.
1:14:30
It's just there to to add to the violence and to add to the
1:14:33
nastiness and again what what is this for what where is this
1:14:36
going? None of these strands are are
1:14:38
actually sort of serving a purpose to towards developing a
1:14:41
a narrative that in some way hangs together.
1:14:43
Yeah, I I don't have anything else to sort of say around that.
1:14:47
It. It really just doesn't know what
1:14:49
it wants to do. And being a, you know, 90
1:14:52
minutes of fan like certainly isn't isn't what television is
1:14:56
about ever ever. This one goes straight into the
1:14:59
bin. This is garbage.
1:15:01
Go. I agree it's going in the bin
1:15:03
for me. There are some good bits to it.
1:15:06
I think it's like the first episode.
1:15:09
I think there's some very, it's very atmospheric, I like sort of
1:15:11
the designs of the tunnels and things.
1:15:13
You know when you see the stuff like that.
1:15:16
I like Brian Glover, who probably has once similar age to
1:15:20
me with you won't remember that he was a professional wrestler,
1:15:24
was talking about old men, underpants.
1:15:27
So I saw a lot of fun gloveries the Pence in the 1980s and 70s.
1:15:32
Again, I agree with Joe. In the violence there's that's
1:15:36
this. I mean when you say about
1:15:37
vengeance, the violence in this is far worse.
1:15:40
You've got Littens hands. You've got someone actually
1:15:43
shooting a Cyberman in the mouth in the TARDIS.
1:15:48
I know it's a Cyberman, but that is just that.
1:15:51
Just when I just when that happens, I just thought, oh, you
1:15:54
know, it's there's a whole thing with the Doctor and Perry again.
1:15:56
I mean there's bits that are their relationship is so
1:16:01
schizophrenic. I mean it's like, you know, it
1:16:03
just it varies my son seems to saying from series to series.
1:16:06
You know, one minute they're being really nice and kind with
1:16:09
each other and a laugh and then she seems to be like sort of
1:16:11
Stockholm syndrome suffering abused life.
1:16:15
It's, you know, and this is just almost in this is the first
1:16:18
episode of this season. You know you've had Swing by
1:16:21
Limit and then you think, have I got to watch a whole series of
1:16:24
her being treated like this? Yes, you do.
1:16:27
I know. I know.
1:16:30
Yes, I know now. And it's also, I agree with
1:16:33
Stephen about Stratton and Bates.
1:16:35
Oh my God, a pair of assholes annoying each other, wandering
1:16:39
around the planet, not doing anything and then just getting
1:16:44
killed. And you think, why?
1:16:47
Why? What was the point of that?
1:16:49
There was no point of that. It is just padding for the sake
1:16:53
of it they're doing. They don't achieve anything.
1:16:56
They're just shouty and hate each other.
1:16:59
And you know, you've got the Doctor and the Perry.
1:17:01
Doing that, doing more you don't mean.
1:17:07
More people being horrible to each other and again, you know
1:17:13
there are good bits in this, but to me I agree with you, it's got
1:17:17
to go. So.
1:17:18
Joe, that could be the byline for season 22.
1:17:21
You've got the Doctor and Perry being horrible to each other.
1:17:24
We don't need more people being horrible and yet the whole
1:17:28
season is people being horrible to each other.
1:17:31
I know. And it's just like when, you
1:17:33
know, when you get people being nice to each other, it's like.
1:17:36
Oh, I like this. Yeah, that, that dishy Luke from
1:17:40
Mark of the Rani, you know, the one that's squeezing.
1:17:42
So it's very tight trousers. He's very lovely to everybody.
1:17:45
That's hard. We got to him.
1:17:46
I was like, oh, thank God, You know, there's something nice.
1:17:49
About what happens to him, Joe. He gets turned into an enormous
1:17:53
piece of wood. This is.
1:17:54
This is when you this is what you get in Doctor Who for being
1:17:57
nice. Yeah, punished.
1:17:59
I was going to try and defend this.
1:18:01
Oh. Bless you.
1:18:02
Go on, Ed. Wow the.
1:18:03
Beginning of the season, I thought, I can't be down on all
1:18:06
of these. There is the nostalgia factor.
1:18:08
I thought, Come on, find the nice things in this.
1:18:11
And it was a bit of a day because you probably guess with
1:18:13
time rush it's it's quite hard to find some positive things in
1:18:17
these, but I tried. It shouldn't be hard though,
1:18:20
should it? It shouldn't be hard, but
1:18:22
unfortunately with this season it kind of is.
1:18:26
I think probably the good parts have already been picked on.
1:18:28
I think the direction is very good.
1:18:30
I think it has a style and a pace and an energy, particularly
1:18:34
part one. Part one does feel like kind of
1:18:36
something from Houston films. They even make a reference to
1:18:40
being a minder, which made me smile because it was very much a
1:18:43
a minder of its time. And I think that kind of pseudo
1:18:46
gritty crime drama feels very different for Doctor Who at this
1:18:50
stage and I thought the right directions is going in.
1:18:53
That music though, Now, now. Horrible.
1:18:56
I've got the music down with the negative, Dana.
1:18:59
Yeah, the music is repulsive. I don't remember Minder ever
1:19:04
having music like that. No about Dennis Waterman singing
1:19:07
the theme tune. Oh, that's true.
1:19:08
Yeah, because about Colin singing the theme tune.
1:19:12
Have you heard Doctor and the Pirates?
1:19:13
Oh, I go there, right. It's funny Joe, what you just
1:19:17
mentioned about people being nasty, I have written.
1:19:19
Very much a doctor in distress, yeah.
1:19:23
I've I've written down does the direction and pace of this get
1:19:26
over the fact that we are literally just seeing three
1:19:28
groups of people arguing with each others?
1:19:31
You've got the criminals arguing, you've got Bates and
1:19:33
Stratton arguing, you've got the Doctrine Perry arguing and you
1:19:36
cut from each one and it's just not a very nice place to be.
1:19:40
But I think Matthew Robinson really works hard to try to give
1:19:44
it a bit of energy and lifting The film sequences in London, I
1:19:48
think look really nice. The film sequences on Tell Us I
1:19:50
think are very good. They've added a mist so it
1:19:54
doesn't just look like your traditional gravel pet.
1:19:56
There's a nice mist and a film to it, which he then replicates
1:20:00
in the studios as well to give it kind of some continuity
1:20:03
between inside and outside. I think the look of it is very
1:20:07
nice. There's some lovely images and
1:20:08
the sewers with the the wall coming up to reveal the
1:20:11
Cybermen, That's a great monster reveal to some very low shots of
1:20:15
the Cybermen to emphasize their height.
1:20:18
And again, that's very nice. So I think he's working really
1:20:21
hard. I mean when he comes to Part 2
1:20:22
and he's got those bloody, awful Iceland ice tombs, I mean.
1:20:26
He really is fighting against impossible, but I think he does
1:20:31
give it a a certain pace which otherwise imagine, imagine
1:20:36
Pennant Robertson directs my dog.
1:20:38
There's there is one angle, you know, where someone gets killed
1:20:42
and then the Doctor and Perry come round the corner and the
1:20:45
the camera's on the floor with the guy's face right in front of
1:20:49
the camera dead with blood coming out of his mouth and then
1:20:51
coming up behind like, but he's doing interesting stuff.
1:20:55
It's just it's just lumbered with this script is the trouble.
1:20:58
Yeah, the script is not one of my positives.
1:21:01
Funnily enough. I've noticed.
1:21:03
I think the guest cast is, well, it's a mixed bag, isn't it?
1:21:07
Maurice Colborne, I think really gives it a bit of gravitas and I
1:21:10
think he brings some class to that role.
1:21:13
Brian Glover, as you rightly said, Joe, I think was
1:21:15
excellent. He's kind of very down to earth.
1:21:18
Gritty Yorkshire humor works well.
1:21:20
It kind of counterpoints the kind of sci-fi E Nos of it and
1:21:24
grounds it a little bit. I think he's a great character,
1:21:27
but a surprise surprise, he gets the cry on guest cast.
1:21:31
Why? They were going for Coup Stark,
1:21:33
who was Prince Andrew's girlfriend at the time, an ex
1:21:36
porn actress. Why she was going to be cast
1:21:41
apart from stunt casting? Well the whole of the Cryon's
1:21:43
are woefully miscast. We've got Sarah Berger from the
1:21:46
Royal Shakespeare Company in there.
1:21:48
Why she's hidden behind a mask. David Banks I will pull out
1:21:53
though. He does a sterling job as the
1:21:54
cyber, cyber leader. Who's the one who plays the
1:21:58
Cryon? You know, that the Doctor's got
1:22:00
in the cell? I think she's pretty good.
1:22:01
That's. Faith Brown.
1:22:02
Yeah, she's really good. She is very good.
1:22:05
I feel quite sorry when, you know, when she's just sitting in
1:22:07
the explosive and then the camera just sort of pulls back
1:22:09
and she's just there folding her arms and going right.
1:22:12
Well, there you go. I'm going to murder all the side
1:22:14
men. I thought she was pretty good.
1:22:16
She is. But I think you're right.
1:22:18
Probably the defence count and why we've got Michael Kill
1:22:21
Gareth back. Who was that serving?
1:22:25
Why would you bring back someone who couldn't fit into the
1:22:27
costume? That would be like me playing
1:22:30
the side of the controller, yes? It's just very odd.
1:22:34
So it's clearly going into it's going to The craggy knob of
1:22:39
Titan 3 isn't. It oh, we've lost two already.
1:22:45
Do you know the last time, guys, when we did, we did season 18
1:22:49
and every story. Oh no, I can say this, gone out
1:22:52
because it would have gone out by now.
1:22:53
Every story went through every single one.
1:22:56
We had to blast them to annihilation in round two.
1:22:59
I don't think that's going to be the same problem.
1:23:01
I don't think that's going to be the same here, right?
1:23:03
So we're on to my turn, and I'm going to pick Revelation of the
1:23:07
Dialects. Oh, yes.
1:23:10
Oh. Yes.
1:23:13
Oh, Rod Cole, you cannot be this contrary.
1:23:17
In many ways, this is my favorite and I think on the
1:23:20
surface you would definitely say it's the most polished and the
1:23:23
most accomplished production. It's by far got the best
1:23:27
direction. The music's great.
1:23:29
Obviously they're trying to recapture the magic of Andrew
1:23:32
Zani by having Roger Lim and Graham are working together
1:23:35
again. I think it's definitely got the
1:23:37
best single scene of the year with Natasha and Gregory when
1:23:41
they find Stengos's head really powerful.
1:23:44
I think that's a great scene, but big.
1:23:47
But I am going to eject this one.
1:23:51
This one is off to Title 3. Madness.
1:23:54
What madness is this? I'm going to tell you why.
1:23:58
So to me, plotting is the number one reason.
1:24:03
So I think this is the most egregious example of what we've
1:24:07
been getting all year. What we've been getting this
1:24:09
year are not stories. We're getting setups or
1:24:13
situations. We're getting a premise.
1:24:15
Fairly thin premise in some examples.
1:24:17
But it's not a story. It's not a narrative.
1:24:20
We have a premise populated by lots and lots of characters
1:24:24
spouting some ridiculous dialogue.
1:24:27
They then all get murdered horribly.
1:24:29
There's an explosion and that's the end.
1:24:31
We are not getting a good linear story that goes from A to B to C
1:24:36
to D God help us If this had been split up into four parters
1:24:40
because nothing happens in part one and two and probably what
1:24:43
would have been most of part three.
1:24:45
It is just a situation with characters in there who
1:24:50
disappear off screen. We're not.
1:24:52
There's no development. And this then commits the
1:24:54
cardinal sin of the Doctor being completely sidelined.
1:25:00
His literal only contribution is the last five minutes of the
1:25:03
show, when he suggested that they use the flowers as the food
1:25:06
substitute. Apart from that, he has no role
1:25:09
to play in the story whatsoever. He spends the entire first
1:25:13
episode getting there, spends half of episode two in a in a
1:25:16
prison, and then he gets taken in front of Davros.
1:25:19
The end if the Doctor has no this is not a Doctor Who story.
1:25:23
You could completely take him out of this and the story would
1:25:26
be exactly the same. Tarkis and Lilt would decide to
1:25:29
carry on and use the flowers end of.
1:25:32
So this is not Doctor Who. I would have more sympathy if an
1:25:35
experimental writer like Philip Martin was doing this, but this
1:25:39
is our own script editor turning in a story.
1:25:42
Well, a story, a situation where the Doctor has absolutely 0
1:25:47
impact or contribution. I think that's reprehensible for
1:25:51
Doctor. This is the finale of a season
1:25:54
and he's not even in it. Then we get lots and lots of
1:25:56
deaths of meaningless characters.
1:25:58
Why do we just get death after death after death?
1:26:01
That leads me on to characters, which is the second one non
1:26:04
paper. Yeah, this probably looks like
1:26:06
the most interesting roster of of characters that we've got all
1:26:10
season. But we spend such a short time
1:26:12
amount of time with them because there are just so many.
1:26:15
We don't learn much about them. So where do our sympathies lie?
1:26:18
So we've got Natasha and Gregory.
1:26:19
Why do we have them? They are ostensibly our pseudo
1:26:22
Dr. and companion. They do the investigation.
1:26:25
They find out what's going on in there, they get threatened.
1:26:29
Why? And then they die.
1:26:31
That should be the Doctor and Perry arriving on Tranquil
1:26:34
Repose, finding a body, discovering what's going on,
1:26:37
finding the Glass Dalek. That should be their role and
1:26:40
they're not in it. We've got these two characters
1:26:43
that just come along and then get disappeared once their role
1:26:46
as a plot device is gone. The DJ If we got the DJ that's
1:26:50
copying vengeance on Barros, you've got someone commentating
1:26:53
on the action, but there at least you've got Erica Netta,
1:26:56
who were representing the society.
1:26:58
The DJ is not representing anything, he's just commenting
1:27:01
on what we've already seen just so that he can get murdered
1:27:04
horribly again at the end The performance, the character is
1:27:07
very Marmite. You could argue it's terribly
1:27:10
acted by Alexis Sale, I couldn't possibly comment but it's not
1:27:13
great. But he just serves 0 purpose
1:27:15
whatsoever. It's pure padding more senior
1:27:18
Bostock or surprise surprise we've got another mercenary like
1:27:22
we had with Litton at the beginning of the series.
1:27:24
Very much another Eric say would he loves his mercenaries?
1:27:27
Joe Balance? Hassenbach are quite like Joe
1:27:29
Bell. He's got some good lines.
1:27:31
Clive Swift gives a great performance, but Tassendbacker,
1:27:34
I think he's probably the acting the story, said she Why is it
1:27:38
with Jenny? This is Jenny Thomason.
1:27:39
We've had Jenny Laird in Plants of the Spiders terrible,
1:27:43
terrible performance. And then Kara and Vogel, who
1:27:47
again I thoroughly enjoy. And Eleanor Braun gives a
1:27:50
wonderful camp performance, but it's all too brief, too quick.
1:27:54
I'm surprised, surprised she gets murdered horribly.
1:27:57
It's just too it's just too much.
1:28:00
This is not a story that goes from A to B to C, allows the
1:28:04
doctor to investigate, learn, influence and be a force of
1:28:08
positive good. I think my final point, which
1:28:12
just illustrates the complacency of the production scene at this
1:28:15
point. They offered the role of the
1:28:17
mutants of Laurence Olivier and expected him to take it like a
1:28:21
75 plus year old actor of his stature would be covered in Rice
1:28:26
Krispies and roll about in the snow to be throttled by Colin
1:28:30
Baker and Jay. And he was surprised when he
1:28:32
said no. I mean, they would just.
1:28:34
I believe they did wait a few days before answering.
1:28:36
You know, they could consider it.
1:28:38
The hubris of the production team at that stage is just it's
1:28:42
it's gone beyond I I thought I loved this story, but to be
1:28:47
honest, watching it again, after the grim and grittiness that
1:28:50
we've had leading up to it, it was just a series of deaths and
1:28:54
a situation too far. Give me a story goes from A to B
1:28:58
to C any day, and so I'm binning it.
1:29:02
I've only got one thing to say to you, all right, because of
1:29:06
that criticism of Revelation of the dialects.
1:29:09
The Great Healer has. Ordered you dead.
1:29:15
I'll. Let our guests go first.
1:29:16
I'll go last on this one. Well, I think Brad, that's a
1:29:19
really great point. And I think what you've
1:29:21
highlighted is something that is actually a fatal flaw of season
1:29:25
22 to my mind, even even in, you know, with my sort of more
1:29:31
lenient approach to to the season these days as compared to
1:29:35
in the past. I think it's it's endemic
1:29:39
throughout the season. But I think this is like this is
1:29:41
where it crystallizes and it's perhaps even Exhibit A of this
1:29:45
is what happens when you have a script editor who doesn't
1:29:48
believe in a hero without a gun, who writes a Doctor Who story,
1:29:53
which as you say is the finale to the season where the doctor
1:29:56
doesn't save the day. And that's a problem that's a
1:29:59
big problem throughout the entire series and in fact
1:30:02
throughout the season rather, but throughout say with sort of
1:30:06
a time on the on the on the show as well.
1:30:10
He his utter lack of faith in a character that we absolutely not
1:30:18
just like identify with or you know see as the hero but whose
1:30:22
ethos and and and values we take to be at the center of the show.
1:30:26
For him to reject it in such a way where he's unable to you
1:30:32
know save the day. He he isn't the the agent of
1:30:35
proactive change in vengeance from varasses.
1:30:37
We said he doesn't do anything here that act like he may as
1:30:40
well not have shown up as a character in this story.
1:30:43
And that's that's a problem. That's a damning and diamond of
1:30:45
an era where we've lost sight of what the purpose of the show is,
1:30:50
and we've lost sight of maybe even the purpose of the
1:30:53
character in that show as well. And say what's got a lot to
1:30:57
answer for in my book on that, on that account.
1:30:59
I do think there's one script this season.
1:31:02
It's the Pip and Jane script that puts the Doctor front and
1:31:05
centre as a moral force. And as somebody who says this
1:31:09
has got to stop what she's doing and I'm going to stop him.
1:31:12
And he is instrumental in that happening at the end of the
1:31:15
story, sending them off in the TARDIS back to the dawn of time
1:31:18
or something like that. And people criticize Pip and
1:31:21
Jane, but I think they are the writers of this period that
1:31:24
actually understand what Doctor Who is.
1:31:28
What show they're writing for? I I wish that that wasn't as
1:31:34
damning as. Because.
1:31:36
Pip and Jane of the shining light of the season in terms of
1:31:39
how. You tell a Doctor Who story.
1:31:42
I'm not sure we're in a good state.
1:31:45
Well, we'll get to that story. I don't know that.
1:31:48
So, Steven, are you? Are you agreeing or are you?
1:31:51
No, no, no, no, no. I'm keeping it, but I absolutely
1:31:55
recognize its flaws, I think. And at the same time it it is,
1:31:59
those flaws are outweighed, I guess, by the the verve and the
1:32:02
panache and the style and the the daring, I guess as well.
1:32:06
Like this is dark. Doctor.
1:32:08
Who and it may not necessarily be to my taste all the time, but
1:32:12
I don't think he can take that darkness out of Doctor Who
1:32:14
because you can't then contrast it with the light and the the
1:32:18
fluffy and the androids or Towers of of Doctor Who.
1:32:23
And in similar regard, if we're going to go down this darker
1:32:26
path in season 22, then yeah, we probably need to be going this
1:32:30
far into that dark. It's not much further, I would
1:32:33
say, and probably vengeance is is the very limit of it.
1:32:37
So I don't have a problem with that aspect.
1:32:42
But I recognize what you're saying that there's almost
1:32:45
nihilism to the way that this story sort of caps the season,
1:32:50
which is it rather bleak? And no, it's not perfect, but I
1:32:55
don't think it's sort of in the same category as a time mash or
1:32:58
attack aside. And I think there is merit here.
1:33:01
And again, perhaps like with Pharos, there's a, there's a few
1:33:04
things that you would need to change this.
1:33:06
The foregrounding of the Doctor and Perry has the central
1:33:08
protectionist of the story, for instance, that needs to be
1:33:10
changed. But there's enough there and I
1:33:13
think maybe also, you know, the way in which say, would sort of
1:33:19
borrows from Evelyn Wars, the loved one, for instance, like
1:33:23
Doctor Who does that. Well, Doctor Who does go out and
1:33:26
take a, you know, a piece of literature or myth or whatever
1:33:29
and reinterpret it. I think that's that's a strength
1:33:31
of it. So I'm going to keep it for
1:33:32
those reasons. Sounds like we are the IT is the
1:33:35
proverbial polishing of the turd.
1:33:37
That's one. By the sound of it, that one's
1:33:39
got enough Polish on it to keep it.
1:33:41
You haven't heard from me yet. All right, you hold your horses.
1:33:44
Oh, actually, before we come to the two Joes, we should do the
1:33:49
listeners comments. First Oh.
1:33:50
Yes, but I got so carried away on that one.
1:33:52
Sorry, yeah. No, don't be silly.
1:33:55
So Saduku 24 said season 22 is very sloppy and nasty indeed,
1:34:01
aside from Revelation the dialects which is rare gem and a
1:34:05
saving grace for the 80s era. Anthony Carroll says Revelation
1:34:09
is superb, with great characters only let down by levitating
1:34:12
Davros. Cara's death is one of the most
1:34:15
brutal in the show. Mark Booth said the only good
1:34:18
story which could go toe to toe with the rest with the best of
1:34:22
other seasons, is revelation. Mark Donaldson says far and away
1:34:25
Eric's Award's best story with a rich cast of supporting
1:34:29
characters. John Arnold said the BFI showing
1:34:31
of Revelation was a revelation, showing how well the jokes
1:34:35
landed. Darren Lick Randall's another
1:34:38
too grim story, but at least Graham Harper does something
1:34:40
with it. My heart said I admire
1:34:43
revelation more than actually like it.
1:34:45
The apotheosis of nasty people all being nasty in a nasty
1:34:49
place. Doctor Who cover story says
1:34:52
Revelation is the best story, but it's still mean spirited,
1:34:55
depressing and doesn't feel like Doctor Who to me.
1:34:58
Gary Finney Zaire said revelation is the best of a bad
1:35:01
bunch, saved by some beautiful direction by Graham Harper and
1:35:04
some great casting. Electronic Dan finally says
1:35:08
revelation is strong, if weird, and how the Doctor and Perry
1:35:11
have much less active role in the story except for that silly,
1:35:15
annoying DJ that brings it down. OK.
1:35:18
So, Joe, your thoughts on Revelation?
1:35:21
I'm going to put this through. I agree.
1:35:23
You know, once again, I'm going to repeat myself by saying, you
1:35:27
know, positive negatives. My first positive is where is
1:35:32
our Rossini and Bostock series. You know, I love them.
1:35:38
I absolutely love them. When they first appear, you
1:35:42
think, Oh my God, this blackouts are in Baldrick.
1:35:44
You look at them, you've got the, you know, the you do.
1:35:47
You look like there's a touch about it.
1:35:48
You've got the little way. Well, and you've got the smart
1:35:50
one. But then then I know they're
1:35:53
not, you know, I can read with Steve and they're not, You know,
1:35:55
there's a lot of characters in this.
1:35:57
Then again, and then they turn on by Shakespearean and you've
1:36:01
got William gone, who to me at the time he was like he was
1:36:05
sitcom dad. You know, that's remember from
1:36:07
him being sitcom dad and he comes into this and he's got
1:36:12
this. It's almost, you know, the
1:36:13
Shakespearean sort of Jacobean tragedy about it.
1:36:16
Sort of like he's this, you know, the honourable assassin.
1:36:20
You can sell these cliches about it, but you know, he's got this
1:36:23
whole back story, you know, and then he's got him and Bostock,
1:36:26
you know, he's like, he says, you know, you can see the big
1:36:28
comic. But then he goes, well, the only
1:36:30
time I didn't rely on his instinct is when, you know, he
1:36:32
got his artificial leg. So this is this sort of like
1:36:36
these, you know, their back story.
1:36:38
I just want to know. So I want to know more about
1:36:40
them. I want to know more about their
1:36:42
why there has not been. I sort of went on tardy this
1:36:46
wiki and I thought is there anything else I really want to
1:36:48
know about these characters more And I think that's you know I
1:36:51
think that you know they're actually like my probably my
1:36:53
favorite characters of the entire season together.
1:36:56
I think they're they're just I like them.
1:36:59
As Steven was saying you've got the whole sort of Beverly more
1:37:01
loved ones but then you've got to go further back.
1:37:03
You've got like this you know it's the Soylent Green.
1:37:07
You know, Soylent Green is people.
1:37:08
There's that in them. And it's just like you've got to
1:37:10
hope. You know money doesn't.
1:37:13
You know the rich and the powerful are the ones that are
1:37:15
going to be, you know, what's your you know you've got all
1:37:16
that money, all that power. If you know their end goal is
1:37:20
that they're not going to be food.
1:37:21
Because basically the clips become the food.
1:37:23
You start the working people, the ones that you know aren't
1:37:26
important. They're the ones that get eaten
1:37:29
for all your power, for all your wealth, all your money.
1:37:32
The end goal, if therefore succeeds, is these may become
1:37:34
Daleks. That's all they you know
1:37:37
nothing. That's their rewards for all
1:37:39
their money and all their wealth.
1:37:41
It's just sort of a comment. And you go be even further back
1:37:43
in history. You've got Jonathan Swift, the
1:37:45
guy who wrote Gulliver's Travels, you know, 1729.
1:37:50
He wrote this satire called A Modest Proposal.
1:37:52
And it was like all these. And he was, he was satire.
1:37:55
So he said, oh, you know, with the poor.
1:37:57
You know, whole thing about this was, oh, I never the way to
1:38:00
solve poverty. 80 children. These are not new ones.
1:38:04
That's basically what it. Is it?
1:38:07
Was it? Was he wrote it as a satire And
1:38:10
that's this is the 18th century, so these aren't you know, these
1:38:14
are very old ideas but I know I've shocked you you've.
1:38:19
Shocked me more than season 22 ever could.
1:38:22
I know, but there's sort of like.
1:38:24
Ghastly idea, no? But that's something he was
1:38:26
satirizing, this whole idea. You know, he was sat.
1:38:28
He wasn't, you know, it was a satire.
1:38:31
Like you can see like this is a satellite, you know, they've got
1:38:33
Dan for saying hell, you know, we've we've sold.
1:38:37
You know what's the problem? You know we've sold famine.
1:38:40
You know you've eaten your granny.
1:38:41
What's the problem That? Line asked about what is it they
1:38:44
were grateful for the food it allowed.
1:38:46
Them to. Go on living.
1:38:48
It's like when they didn't know, you know, all commercial
1:38:50
resistance. I mean, you and I worked retail,
1:38:55
you know, you can just imagine how like new granny chops or
1:38:58
something. Yeah.
1:39:00
And how I don't know how not mentioned the fabulous line.
1:39:05
I'm a past master at the double entry.
1:39:08
Oh, gorgeous. I'm sure Joe was going to I.
1:39:12
Don't know how we got this far away.
1:39:15
No, But I can see all, you know, Once again, there are lots of
1:39:19
things I don't like. I mean, the fat shaming is
1:39:21
appalling. They're going around fat, you
1:39:23
know, fat shaming each other. It's just like, you know, that's
1:39:27
not good and there's other bits I don't like, but on the whole,
1:39:30
mainly for senior and boss, Doctor were my new heroes.
1:39:37
I'm putting it through. This is one of my all time
1:39:41
favourite Doctor Who stories and that's a bit baffling because I
1:39:46
don't think it's a Doctor Who story at all.
1:39:49
So maybe I should say this is one of my favourite bits of 80s
1:39:51
television. There we go.
1:39:52
That's probably fairer because it doesn't obey any of the rules
1:39:55
of Doctor Who, as I think the thing that Eric say would get
1:40:01
perfect here is he carves out a corner of the Galaxy, this, this
1:40:06
part of the Galaxy in such vivid detail.
1:40:10
And he does it all with these double acts that we keep going
1:40:13
to so Orsini and Bostock, Cara and Vogel, Davros Tranquil
1:40:19
Repose or Tarkis and Lilt the Doctor and Perry like.
1:40:24
And I think every one of those characters is written to
1:40:28
perfection. I think the dialogue in This Is
1:40:31
is everything he got wrong in Attack of the Side Men he's
1:40:34
getting right here. And you know why?
1:40:36
It's because he bothers to make it funny.
1:40:39
This is a really funny story and the fella there in the comments,
1:40:42
I was at that Revelation of the Daleks screening at the BFI and
1:40:47
people were in hysterics watching that and I I'd never
1:40:51
realised quite how funny this was until I watched it with.
1:40:54
And I do think humor is a big in.
1:40:56
And I do think humor is what is lacking a lot of in season 22
1:41:00
and a lot of these lines are really witty.
1:41:03
You said about the Doctor and Perry.
1:41:06
I do actually think that Perry gets a good showing here.
1:41:09
It it kind of not until episode 2.
1:41:12
I do love it when she I don't love it when she murders the
1:41:15
mutant, but I do love that she's appalled and he gets to come for
1:41:18
her. I love all the sitcom antics
1:41:20
when they're going over the wall because they're being nasty with
1:41:22
each other, but they're being funny, you know, I love her
1:41:26
scenes with the DJ where she talks about being homesick and
1:41:29
we return to that mysterious planet.
1:41:31
I like her finally getting one up on the, you know, sexist
1:41:34
creep that's coming on to her this week.
1:41:37
Those red, red Ruby lips were made for kissing, but not by
1:41:39
you. She gets to be funny and witty
1:41:42
and quick. I think it's a really, really
1:41:44
good story. And Nicola Bryant responds
1:41:45
really well to the scripts as well.
1:41:47
I think it's her best performance of the season.
1:41:50
Every element of the production comes together in a very, in a
1:41:54
perfect way in this story. The direction, the music, the
1:41:58
special effects, the make up, the costuming, everything.
1:42:02
And it's happened so rarely in classic, one of those things
1:42:05
usually falls to the wayside. It's it's like a an amazing
1:42:10
congruence of all the planets coming together, you know, in
1:42:12
this perfect thing. And I think from one scene to
1:42:16
the next, it's full of great set pieces, it's full of
1:42:20
unforgettable imagery. The pulsating organ on the
1:42:24
fellow's head, the glass Dalek, the weird statues in Davros, his
1:42:29
lair, the the shots from the cameras point of view in the
1:42:34
whole of tranquil pose as if everyone's being watched all the
1:42:37
time. But the the direction is just
1:42:40
phenomenal. I actually think it's a step up
1:42:42
from case of Andrew Zani, which I think is similarly that's sort
1:42:46
of dynamic, but this is a bit more sort of idiosyncratic.
1:42:50
He's doing more interesting things here.
1:42:53
And and he's responding to a script that he said he read and
1:42:56
just got totally excited about because he knew he could bring
1:42:59
in all of these eccentric actors that have been playing boring
1:43:03
roles in sitcoms and historical dramas.
1:43:06
And suddenly, you know, it's Mr. Joe Bell dying to his death with
1:43:11
a hypodermic needle in him and his poor toupee falling off as
1:43:15
he falls down the stairs. You know, you don't get to play
1:43:17
those things very often. And these people, it's a bit
1:43:19
like paradise hours. These people are coming in and
1:43:21
just just having the best time playing these quirky roles you
1:43:24
said about the deaths you said about.
1:43:26
I think that is a bad approach. Except here, where every single
1:43:31
one of those deaths is fucking exceptionally done.
1:43:35
They're all, they're all just great moments.
1:43:37
Cara's like, you know, trying to, oh, what a Pretty Little
1:43:40
box. What does it do, You know, it's
1:43:42
a bomb. A great big bomb.
1:43:45
And then he just literally. Slips the knife it.
1:43:47
It's horrible, but it's. You cannot defend.
1:43:50
You cannot defend Tassin Beaker's death when she runs
1:43:52
down the corridor waving her to defend that Joe Ford at your
1:43:57
best I. Want to defend Jenny Thomason,
1:44:00
who I think comes in for so much stick for this story?
1:44:04
She's like the poster child for bad performances in Doctor Who.
1:44:07
I don't think she's a great actress, and I think that's the
1:44:10
point. She's supposed to be the ugly
1:44:12
duckling. She's supposed to be awkward and
1:44:14
twitchy and, you know, incommunicative and socially
1:44:18
awkward and, you know, they found someone who's perfect at
1:44:22
all those things. I don't think it's a great
1:44:23
performance, but I think within that role, that's the best bit
1:44:26
of acting she's ever done because that's what that role
1:44:29
requires her to do. Your sympathies are supposed to
1:44:31
be with her. My sympathies are with her.
1:44:33
And that's long before she's opened her mouth and declared
1:44:36
her love for Joe. Bill I I think it's a, it's a
1:44:39
really interesting attempt to do something a bit different with a
1:44:42
female character. And oh man, the amount of times
1:44:46
I've quoted those lines, you know, I'd rather run away with
1:44:50
my mother than own a thorny little freak like you.
1:44:53
Oh, it's fabulous. That whole sequence with her and
1:44:56
Clive Swift, amazing. I mean, I mean I could wax
1:44:59
lyrical, so I'm blue in the face.
1:45:02
I think the actor pairings are amazing.
1:45:04
You said about Orsini and Boston that sequence where they first
1:45:07
meet and she goes, I've got Cara goes, of course you must be like
1:45:10
coiled springs waiting to pounce And he's like, Oh no, I've got a
1:45:14
hydraulic spring in my leg and if I sit down the spring catches
1:45:18
and then Hugh Waters pips in with Oh well, perhaps you'd like
1:45:21
one of our. Engineers to repair.
1:45:23
It for you, you know, it's it's funny and it's, it's great
1:45:27
actors. I I mean, I could just run all
1:45:31
day superlatives scene to scene. I think this is the best story
1:45:35
in the 80s. I think it is entertaining.
1:45:37
It's funny. It's scary.
1:45:41
The revelations in the last episode are truly shocking that
1:45:46
it's one of it's the best Doctor Davros scene in the 80s.
1:45:50
You got Colin there, absolutely defiant, you know, ripping into
1:45:55
how terrible the situation is and then Davros being smooth as
1:45:59
hell, You know, I believe it's called consumer resistance.
1:46:03
You know, Terry Malloy is having a great time.
1:46:05
No wonder they keep bringing them back together for Big
1:46:07
Finish. They work brilliantly together.
1:46:10
So yeah, I accept that it is in many ways a really a really
1:46:17
terrible Doctor Who story, because it isn't about, I just
1:46:19
don't think Eric, say, was writing a Doctor Who story.
1:46:22
I think for once he's gone on holiday, he's had fun writing a
1:46:26
script, he's delivered the goods.
1:46:29
They found a director that can direct the hell out of it, and
1:46:32
the overall experience is just magical.
1:46:36
It's dark and twisted and hilarious and I love it, so I'm
1:46:41
keeping it in right? So we're round Crikey.
1:46:44
This is going to be a long podcast show, right?
1:46:47
We're round for our second go round the wheel.
1:46:50
So we will come to Stephen for your next story.
1:46:55
I I. Loathe to do this, but I I have
1:46:59
to bring the twin dilemma because it's part of tonight's
1:47:02
discussion to the table I Is this the worst?
1:47:09
Doctor Who story. Of all time.
1:47:11
Very possibly. I I think actually Mindwarp is
1:47:14
my least favorite of all of Doctor Who.
1:47:17
But this one is not far off it. It's incompetent.
1:47:22
It is absolutely the wrong way to start this Doctor.
1:47:26
So let's let's go into that for a little bit.
1:47:29
He's he's introduced in the last story of season 21.
1:47:35
It's in and of itself that is a crazy idea because there's
1:47:41
there's just this nonsensical idea that you can bring in an
1:47:46
actor at the end of a series and then go away for however many
1:47:51
months and bring them back that that just strikes me as so crazy
1:47:55
because there's no real reason to do it.
1:47:58
But when you when you double down on that and you introduce
1:48:01
him as absolutely unlikeable and you know, we've heard nonsense
1:48:05
about, oh, it's going to take seven years because he wants to
1:48:07
be Tom's record. And in that period of time it's
1:48:10
going to be an onion peeling away the onion layers and Mr.
1:48:13
Darcy kind of character trajectory.
1:48:17
All of that's fine and well, but I don't think you can actually
1:48:20
do that for much more than two or three stories, let alone two
1:48:24
or three series. Your, your lead character needs
1:48:27
to be likable and fun and funny because that's what the Doctor
1:48:32
is from the start. None of that is here.
1:48:34
Instead, we have someone who's cantankerous.
1:48:37
OK, perhaps we can. We can get away with that.
1:48:40
Someone who is egotistical? OK, perhaps we can get away with
1:48:43
that. But someone who is violent and
1:48:46
violent against the companion in the first episode?
1:48:49
Are you out of your goddamn mind?
1:48:51
There is no way that this doctor can actually sort of succeed.
1:48:57
Or or or or. Fulfill their potential or in
1:48:59
any way survive public opinion beyond the 1st 25 minutes.
1:49:04
And it's perhaps the 1st 25 minutes that dams the entire
1:49:07
Colin Baker era and maybe even leads us to the hiatus slash
1:49:11
cancellation of 198586 indeed. I mean that that is absolutely a
1:49:17
misstep. Beyond that, another reason why
1:49:21
you wouldn't have your first episode or your first story with
1:49:24
with a new Doctor at the end of the series is that the money's
1:49:27
run out and boy does it show. This is a production that is as
1:49:31
inept and as horrible as perhaps even Underworld.
1:49:35
I would say Time, Flight, any number of examples of classic
1:49:40
Hoover. They've got to the end of the
1:49:42
series, the season and there's nothing left in the Kitty.
1:49:46
It looks horrible, it's drab, there's a just a terrible
1:49:50
shortage of quality, you know, in front of the camera and off
1:49:54
screen as well. And thirdly, I think this is
1:49:59
perhaps something that will extend into, will definitely
1:50:02
extend into Season 23 and perhaps even also is
1:50:05
foreshadowed or sort of brought to the to the fore in case of
1:50:10
Andrasani. But it kicks off Perry's
1:50:14
character Rock, which is nothing short of a rape narrative.
1:50:17
We have a character who is introduced in Planet of Fire and
1:50:22
ironically enough directed by by a female director, but you know
1:50:26
through the male gaze that then gets worsened through her
1:50:29
treatment by Sharon's check, which I think say would picks up
1:50:33
on through the example of homes and runs with it through the
1:50:37
rest of of Perry's time on the show.
1:50:40
But here for her to be actually physically attacked by the
1:50:43
Doctor and then eventually go through it an entire season
1:50:48
where she's basically lusted after gross old men and aliens.
1:50:51
And what happens in Mind Warp? Well, a gross old alien actually
1:50:56
gets hold of the body that's so heinous a a character trajectory
1:51:02
that's so morally bankrupt and moribund.
1:51:07
An idea for what you would do to an enchanting role, I guess.
1:51:14
But also, Nicola Bryant didn't deserve this.
1:51:17
Like she's. So.
1:51:19
Great in the role and we've seen that later on, I guess through a
1:51:22
big finish as well. How dare you give her these
1:51:26
scripts And how dare you, sort of, you know, take her on this,
1:51:32
on this, on, on this horrific journey through space and time
1:51:36
when it should be something that enriches her and you know, is
1:51:40
just a great time. And again, I'll go.
1:51:44
Back to that, that. Photograph of of Colin and
1:51:46
Nicola at the photo call for their castings.
1:51:49
What happened to that? Why wasn't that the Doctor and
1:51:52
the companion that we got? Because they clearly are so good
1:51:56
together in terms of, you know, the their energy and their and
1:52:00
their, I guess just the chemistry in the in the same way
1:52:04
that Sylvan and and Sophia, right.
1:52:07
Why, Why would you take that away?
1:52:10
Why would you mention that and even disrupt that and destroy
1:52:14
that from the start in Colin's first episode?
1:52:18
Yeah, I'll stop there. In a series of baffling choices
1:52:21
that have been made, creative choices for our Doctor Who, him
1:52:24
having his hands around her throat and straddling her in the
1:52:27
first episode of The Twin Dilemma is perhaps the most
1:52:31
baffling choice that was ever made.
1:52:34
I will say that just to give a bit of defence for one of those,
1:52:39
I'm not going to defend the strangulation, but the reason
1:52:42
why, The reason JNT quoted as having twin dilemma at the end
1:52:46
of the series was they was really worried that, as with
1:52:49
previous seasons, there was going to be a strike at the BBC
1:52:52
as had been in season 20. And if that had been the case it
1:52:55
would have been the last story to be hit.
1:52:57
And if that had been Peter's regeneration, you wouldn't have
1:52:59
had a regeneration story. There would be kind of caught
1:53:02
between. A.
1:53:03
Rock and a hard place. Hicks twin dilemma to the next
1:53:06
season? If they If they had to, yeah,
1:53:08
exactly. But unfortunately, it came with
1:53:10
all of these terrible concerts as a result.
1:53:13
It does look very odd in retrospect, but that there was a
1:53:16
kind of logical, not creative reason for it.
1:53:19
There was a practical reason for that.
1:53:21
Gosh right, you. Know Stephen, you did your best.
1:53:24
I recorded The Myth Makers last night.
1:53:25
You did your best, Cassandra. Then how dare you.
1:53:31
I love a bit of anger. And a criticism, you know.
1:53:34
No, I really do feel that. I just feel robbed that we
1:53:37
didn't get the six Doctor and Perry we should have.
1:53:40
We go to the comments on this one.
1:53:42
Al. Holloway.
1:53:43
Says Twin Dilemma is only worth watching for the flawed but
1:53:47
fascinating early moments of the 6th Doctor Colin's performance
1:53:50
is great. The script has moments, but the
1:53:52
actual story is painfully bad. Trite.
1:53:55
Derivative. Few will see it first and ever
1:53:58
watch Doctor Who again. Mark Donaldson says Worst is
1:54:02
Twin Dilemma, an unhinged and unlikable Dr. trying to save 2
1:54:07
insufferable teenagers? No thanks.
1:54:10
Electronic dance, and I think the twin dilemma is underrated.
1:54:13
It has flaws, for example the doctor's instability, the twins,
1:54:17
etcetera, which make it look like a bad choice for an
1:54:19
introductory story, but it also has nice moments to get
1:54:22
overlooked. And Pin, very succinct, looks
1:54:25
cheap, bad child actors and crosses the line too much.
1:54:29
Darren Randall said. It's awful on so many levels,
1:54:33
but I'll never stop enjoying it. It was basically.
1:54:36
Me, Tony Feiler says. The separation of twin Dilemma
1:54:40
and having it follow right after Andrezani was damaging because
1:54:44
it dropped the initially psychotic, spiky Baker doctor on
1:54:48
us, then left us to Stew. Chris Hogben said.
1:54:51
I honestly think the twin dilemma should have been the
1:54:54
penultimate 5th Doctor story, introducing Perry and having the
1:54:57
redemption arc for five with the mathematically gifted twins.
1:55:02
Interesting. Sudeiko, 24, says Twin Dilemma
1:55:05
really is the worst, a thoroughly painful watch with
1:55:08
thoroughly unpleasant characters.
1:55:10
Sadly, it taints the impression of Colin after.
1:55:13
And a beautiful summary from Bernard as our final commenter
1:55:17
Twin is an epic car crash, right?
1:55:21
Should we go to Joe Short? Joe, what are your opinions?
1:55:25
Are you going to agree with Stephen?
1:55:28
Yes. Wait.
1:55:31
Is this something when you're writing notes?
1:55:34
And I did positives and negatives for this.
1:55:36
It's like positives. I think Colin's brilliant.
1:55:41
I think he club chase what He chase the doctor and his trauma
1:55:44
very well. And he goes, you like Nicholas
1:55:48
acting. I think they're really good from
1:55:49
the start. And then it comes down to
1:55:52
Penny's blanket looks snuggly and I like the colour of Perry's
1:55:56
snuggly blanket and I think Oh my God it says a lot when that's
1:56:01
the only positives I can find is the fact that I think Perry's
1:56:04
blanket looks snuggly. There's another one from the
1:56:07
negatives of God's Well, it's the casual dismissal of
1:56:11
everything that's gone on previously in the show.
1:56:14
You know, he comes in and he goes, oh about to Davidson's
1:56:17
doctor. He's a feats and everything to
1:56:20
me, Randy. You know when they have these,
1:56:22
I've got a very strange mind. When you see something's new and
1:56:26
improved. I always think, well basically
1:56:28
you're saying your old products are like, well, bollocks because
1:56:31
if you have to newly improve it, why were you buying?
1:56:34
Why would we buying it in the 1st place?
1:56:39
And it's like he doesn't. And then he says the Hetardist
1:56:41
is hideous. You're like, well, you're just
1:56:44
basically shitting on your own doorstep now, aren't you?
1:56:46
You know, it's not very well saying, you know, this is new,
1:56:48
we've got a new Doctor, but you don't.
1:56:50
It's this very casual sort of dismissing of stuff that you,
1:56:54
you know, if you helped create all this, don't turn around and
1:56:57
say it's a load of old rubbish because then you think you know
1:57:00
you're attacking not only what you, you know you and you're
1:57:04
doing. You're only taking something
1:57:06
that people love and put, you know, put so much meaning to the
1:57:11
bloody twins. Or I think everyone knows having
1:57:13
bloody twins are just terrible. And you know, he's.
1:57:17
Losing the world with the Twin. Dialogue.
1:57:20
Oh, it's just, I do like when Hugo punches that feathery thing
1:57:24
in the balls right at the end. That was quite enjoyable.
1:57:26
But that's when when you know the highlights or somebody being
1:57:29
punched in the balls and the band.
1:57:31
I mean, that sort of sums it up for it at least.
1:57:34
So yeah, no, it's got to go. Joe, I have just recently done a
1:57:39
commentary on the Twin Dilemma and Sihar, who, you know, the
1:57:44
fandom's lover of everything, who absolutely despised it.
1:57:48
By the end of that, the pair of us were laughing our heads off
1:57:51
at episodes 3:00 and 4:00. I've always liked this story and
1:57:57
OK, well, a part of my defence is I was brought up on a steady
1:58:01
diet of really bad B movies, of which this absolutely falls into
1:58:06
that category. And I like the sort of
1:58:08
heightened science fiction and the camp of it and you know, the
1:58:13
the, the colour of it and the mad over the topless of it.
1:58:17
I do. I like all of that.
1:58:18
And I like that in My Dogs, who I think there's four huge
1:58:22
strengths to this story. And they are Colin Baker, who,
1:58:27
despite what he's asked to do, he just burst onto the screen
1:58:33
and does everything that's required of him and more with
1:58:36
just so much energy and so much verve.
1:58:38
Nicola Bryant, who is extraordinarily good at showing
1:58:43
us Perry's anxiety at what is going on around us.
1:58:46
And I think that might be part of the problem here, if I'm
1:58:49
honest, is that she's so good an actress.
1:58:52
We really can feel the bit where she flinches away from him after
1:58:57
he attacks her is so brilliantly dumb.
1:59:00
It never should have happened. That never should have been
1:59:02
written into a script. But yeah, so.
1:59:05
But I just think her acting alone from the story is
1:59:10
exceptional. I think Kevin McNally is
1:59:12
brilliant in this and absolutely should have jumped into the
1:59:15
TARDIS at the end and would have been a very nice buffer between
1:59:19
the Doctor and Perry. And he would have basically said
1:59:22
I'm not putting up with any of your shit.
1:59:23
Because that starts happening in three and four where he's in the
1:59:26
mix as well. And the Doctor can't roughhouse
1:59:29
anymore because there's a bloke with a gun who's basically
1:59:31
saying, you know, get out of my face and I really like him and
1:59:35
he's not. That's how he's smoking hot in
1:59:37
that black T-shirt. I mean, I've sort of tailored my
1:59:41
life on Hugo Hugo Lange. Not, not the the terrible thing
1:59:45
he pulls out of the wardrobe room, though, that foil jacket.
1:59:49
Do you remember that awful? And finally, I think Maurice
1:59:52
Denham as Edgeworth. He brings so much sort of
1:59:56
gravitas and nuance to a story that has none whatsoever.
2:00:02
Like he single handedly redeems all of those scenes with the
2:00:06
dreadful Mess Door costume and the twins.
2:00:09
And I'll absolutely buy into him and I'll buy into his
2:00:11
relationship with Colin Baker's doctor.
2:00:14
And I find it very moving at the end after, you know, all the
2:00:17
acids been thrown and faces have been melted and all of this
2:00:20
bizarre stuff that's gone on the sequence just between the two of
2:00:23
them. When Colin Baker's wife said
2:00:26
that's the best bit of acting you ever did with Maurice
2:00:29
Stenham at the end of The Twin Dilemma.
2:00:30
I get it because it's a really moving scene.
2:00:33
I also think this is a really funny script.
2:00:36
People think I'm crazy, but I have written down 8:00 or so
2:00:41
lines that amuse me greatly, so I'm going to regale them.
2:00:44
You with them now. You ready?
2:00:45
I love the bit where my store goes.
2:00:47
I tire the disadvantages of my own being, and the doctor just
2:00:51
looks him up and down and goes, yeah, I don't blame you.
2:00:54
That's my sort of humor. OK.
2:00:56
It isn't. It isn't particularly
2:00:57
sophisticated, but so is most currency.
2:01:01
Doesn't stop people spending money wisely in an hour's.
2:01:05
An hour's rests. And he'll be right as rain,
2:01:08
whatever that means. I'll use that one all the time.
2:01:10
What's a little radiation sickness between friends?
2:01:13
Oh, I love it when she goes. Edgeworth goes a pretty one and
2:01:18
the Doctor jumps in straight away.
2:01:19
So that dirty old man. And goes a most devout young
2:01:22
person. Stop those ideas.
2:01:26
Oh, this line of the Doctors. He says he's no longer master of
2:01:30
his planet, but he wants to save his people and that I cannot
2:01:34
help him to do so. Well, if he really does believe
2:01:37
such unimaginable rubbish, he must be faced by some
2:01:40
unimaginable disaster that has unhinged his mind.
2:01:44
Like there is wit in here. There is.
2:01:47
There's there's some sort of witty sitcom S dialogue that's
2:01:50
flying around, especially in the last couple of episodes, and as
2:01:55
absurd as the plot of Mescor trying to send out his sluggy
2:02:00
eggs into the universe by bringing.
2:02:02
Together these planets. As absurd as it is, it does
2:02:06
start to cohere into a Doctor Who story by the end, in a way
2:02:10
that a lot of these stories we're talking today don't.
2:02:13
It brings all the elements together, presents a threat
2:02:17
which then has to be defeated and not a lot of the other
2:02:19
stories are doing this in this season, so.
2:02:22
We've put through Revelation the Daleks, Joe So.
2:02:25
I like both approaches. I I absolutely acknowledge this
2:02:29
is completely not what Doctor Who should have been doing at
2:02:32
this point. Stevens, right.
2:02:34
We should have had a smooth Colin Baker, and he can be
2:02:36
smooth. I've seen him in other things.
2:02:39
And yeah, fabulous, fiery Nicola Bryant at his side, going out
2:02:43
into the universe. Maybe some contemporary Earth
2:02:45
stories or is, you know, instead we get, you know, a cheap old
2:02:49
bit of bee movie tat with a dreadful monster costume, a
2:02:53
violent doctor and all that. It's all, it's all mistakes.
2:02:57
I do find it quite entertaining. The first episode is the big
2:03:00
problem. Once you get over the stumbling
2:03:02
block of the first episode, I think the rest of it is
2:03:06
perfectly entertaining. I think that first episode is
2:03:08
pretty irredeemable, right? It is a choice that never should
2:03:14
have been made. J&T.
2:03:15
Eric, somebody should have said we cannot do this.
2:03:18
We cannot introduce this character and have him attempt
2:03:21
to murder somebody immediately. It's just unconscionable.
2:03:26
However, I'm keeping it in because I've always loved it.
2:03:29
I can quote it back to front. I love Colin Nicola.
2:03:32
I love Morris. And and what's his name?
2:03:35
Hugo Lang. Kevin McNally.
2:03:38
Yeah. And I think it's a lot of fun
2:03:39
when it gets going. So yeah, I'm keeping it in.
2:03:42
OK, so I've got the casting vote.
2:03:46
I agree with that. Why everybody said about Colin,
2:03:48
I think he gets in this one story gets to be dramatic,
2:03:52
melodramatic, loud, ebullient, funny, egotistical,
2:03:57
unpredictable. But he's also calm and caring
2:04:00
with particularly with with asmale when he's dying at the
2:04:02
end. Like you said, Joe, it's a
2:04:04
really physical performance. He's a big contrast to today for
2:04:07
some. I mean, he's running into rooms
2:04:09
the way he just sits or lounges on the on the desk in the main
2:04:12
control room. So 3:00 and 4:00.
2:04:14
It's an odd physicality, but it's very different.
2:04:18
And he's just magnetic, isn't he?
2:04:19
You can't take your eyes off Colin whenever he's on screen.
2:04:22
He's he's absolutely magnetic. I love the way belittles his
2:04:26
enemies. As Temester, I don't rate you
2:04:27
very highly at all. He's compassionate to his
2:04:31
friends. I will come back to that in a
2:04:32
minute. Even rubs the twins, you know,
2:04:34
compassionately on their head. He's spiky with Hugo, which
2:04:38
reminds me a little bit with Capaldi and Danny Pink.
2:04:40
There's a little bit of parallel there with that kind of spike in
2:04:43
US. He's funny when he says to
2:04:46
Norma, oh you have you got foul pest, I'm sure, because he he's
2:04:52
just. And he looks like he's enjoying
2:04:54
himself, doesn't he? Colin really looks as though
2:04:56
he's up in the time of his life. Maybe should have been rained in
2:04:59
a little bit because he is letting his excesses show a bit,
2:05:02
but he's loving it and I think we love him for that in that
2:05:06
episode and I am ignoring episode one in those comments.
2:05:09
The other one thing I am going to say in defence of this story
2:05:13
is, and this seems a little bit odd but bear with me, is the
2:05:16
Doctor and Perry relationship and I'm going to defend it.
2:05:19
I am leaving out episode one now because episode one park episode
2:05:24
one to a side. I agree with that, what
2:05:26
everybody said about the violence, the attack, the
2:05:29
strangulation, leave all that. However, we end episode one with
2:05:35
Perry having a blistering attack on on the Doctor.
2:05:38
I never saw anyone who loved himself so much with so little
2:05:41
reason she's giving back to him and it kind of reminds me that
2:05:44
Barbara bit in edge destruction when Barbara stands up to the
2:05:48
first Doctor and I think that worked really well, ignoring the
2:05:51
horrors of what's gone before. I think Perry standing up to him
2:05:54
at that point is great. And actually, if you can bear to
2:05:58
watch The Twin Dilemma, watch episodes 2-3 and four, and
2:06:02
actually, the Doctor and Perry relationship is quite warm.
2:06:06
He he's spiky, but he's spiky with Hugo.
2:06:08
He's not particularly spiky with Perry.
2:06:11
He smiles at Perry a lot. He puts his arms around her.
2:06:14
There's a body language he cuddles in next to her when
2:06:17
they're looking at the scanner screen.
2:06:19
The two of them together are quite a nice pairing.
2:06:22
In episodes two to four, he has one moment at the end of episode
2:06:25
3 when he's having another of his manic moments when he goes.
2:06:28
On No, she stands up to him again, doesn't she?
2:06:30
She goes. I'm not letting up.
2:06:32
Manic depressive. Paranoid.
2:06:33
Personally. So you shut me up.
2:06:36
But they're actually the rest of it.
2:06:38
They're quite warm. He listens to her.
2:06:40
He's spiking us. And his sarcasm is directed
2:06:43
against Hugo, which like you say, Joe, if Hugo had gone in
2:06:45
the TARDIS, that would have made a very interesting dynamic.
2:06:48
But it's not the toxic relationship.
2:06:50
It's painted that in episodes 2:00 to 4:00.
2:06:53
And I think this is just my take on it, Joe, I've heard you say
2:06:57
many times, the problem with Matt Smith is that he does such
2:07:00
great performance in five that people pick up on those quotes
2:07:04
and write those quotes in six and seven.
2:07:07
I think that's what's happening here.
2:07:09
The writers in 22 are picking up the episode one quirks and
2:07:13
writing that for the whole of season 22.
2:07:16
They're picking up that nastiness, that toxicity
2:07:19
insults, which at times quite unbearable.
2:07:22
They're just he's so rude to Perry.
2:07:24
He's just obnoxious at times. In 22.
2:07:27
You don't get that in two, four of Twin Dilemma.
2:07:30
They've got a much nicer relationship.
2:07:33
Would have been really interesting if actually, if
2:07:36
they're done as we said before, if Twin Dilemma had been the
2:07:38
first of a series and they've written that whole series, I
2:07:41
don't think you would have got that toxicity of the of the two
2:07:45
of them arguing so much because their relationship has thawed by
2:07:48
the end. And that's really evident by
2:07:49
that final scene. This is I'm the Doctor, whether
2:07:51
you like it or not. He smiles to her.
2:07:53
She smiles at him. They've thought they've come
2:07:56
together. She does also say are you having
2:07:59
a love one of your fits? She's having a go at him, not
2:08:03
the other way round. That gets forgotten in 22, and
2:08:06
it's just him dissing on her and it becomes very unlikable.
2:08:10
But yeah, I think 2:00 to 4:00, the relationship, there's a lot
2:08:14
more positivity in that relationship than there is in
2:08:17
the vast majority of 22. Apart from that, I hear what
2:08:22
most people are saying and my only summary would be, as they
2:08:26
both say in the story. Yuck.
2:08:28
So I'm going to, I'm going to abandon twin dilemma sitting on
2:08:38
that craggy knob, right? We've got two stories left.
2:08:42
We've got Mark of the Ronnie and the Two Doctors and it's back to
2:08:45
Joe Short. OK.
2:08:49
I'm going to see Mark of the Ronnie, the risk of having
2:08:53
Fraser Gregory never speak. To.
2:08:56
Me again. Why?
2:08:58
I lived in Newcastle for a year, so I know what, George you sound
2:09:02
like then. But then now I've had to put up.
2:09:04
Coming from London, I've had to put up with my entire life with
2:09:07
people doing terrible Dick Van Dyke impressions at me.
2:09:10
So I Yeah, honestly, God, yeah. Oh, but every time Mary Poppins
2:09:17
was on television, the next few days, my life was hell.
2:09:22
I'm going to champion Marco Favani.
2:09:25
Yes, go. On first positive K Omar, what a
2:09:29
breath of fresh air she is. She's a Time Lord.
2:09:33
He comes in and she doesn't take any bollocks at the master of
2:09:37
the Doctors are going out, which I think sometimes the Time Lords
2:09:40
do, sort of indulge them as like little sort of oh, they're
2:09:44
eccentric, let them run around the universe.
2:09:46
She comes in and goes. You're both a pair of Dicks.
2:09:52
You are, especially with, especially with the masters.
2:09:55
He goes, oh your scheme, you know, it's the first time you
2:09:58
feel like someone actually said this to him.
2:10:00
All your schemes are so full of crap, they don't make any sense.
2:10:06
They never. Work.
2:10:08
Why do you bother? And he says that you and that
2:10:10
bloody doctor she's she is like the big sister you see like you
2:10:15
know you've got 2 little brothers.
2:10:16
You're only man giving. You're just calling have a cool
2:10:19
time. She just comes in and goes and I
2:10:22
love her for that. She's, you know she just comes
2:10:26
in. She's just like she's such a
2:10:27
breath of fresh air. I mean you know, I and I like
2:10:31
also I like Anthony Ainsley in this.
2:10:34
She's not too pantomile at me. I mean, I love him in The Five
2:10:39
Doctors. He's one of the highlights of
2:10:41
The Five Doctors because he's having a ball.
2:10:44
But in this, he's quite, he's bringing it down a notch.
2:10:48
He's got that. He's got sort of like, you know,
2:10:51
because usually with the masks he come in and he finds some
2:10:55
stupid human or some stupid alien and he sort of convinces
2:10:58
them to do his terrible plotting for them.
2:11:01
With this, he comes up against the Barney, who's obviously far
2:11:05
clever. And he is, you know, and he's
2:11:09
like, oh, I'm coming to do this. And she's like, oh, forgot.
2:11:11
So just don't interrupt my, you know, just don't, you know, of
2:11:15
course he's going to piss up her plan because that's what the
2:11:17
master does, you know, he, you know, when he actually succeeds,
2:11:20
we also go, oh, well, it's the top, You know, you have to have
2:11:23
to look like the John Simms master to see what happens when
2:11:26
he actually wins. You know, Doctor ends up fucking
2:11:29
a cage and 10% of the world's did.
2:11:33
But I like that together and it's got, you know, the cold
2:11:36
sort of like always setting up, you know, the accents and the
2:11:40
peasants and the vehicles and that.
2:11:42
And so that's quite interesting and I'm a bit confused by the
2:11:45
plot but then there's nothing new.
2:11:47
So, but I'm really sort of like those two together I think are
2:11:52
really good and the fact she needs him in the ball, she's
2:11:56
just historically. He's needed that for a long
2:11:59
time. He has.
2:12:00
Needed that, I mean. Possibly not what you do,
2:12:03
because I love what you do. I can imagine someone you know,
2:12:07
bless you, he's just incredible, you know?
2:12:09
But someone's been needing to do that to the master for a blah.
2:12:12
Blah never. Don't you love it when when he
2:12:16
first comes in to the to see the Ronnie and he sort of tries to
2:12:20
charmer a bit, doesn't he? And you can tell Anthony Agne
2:12:23
has never seduced a woman in his life like it's.
2:12:27
So. Awkward.
2:12:28
I know. And she know because you've got
2:12:29
this whole thing about them. You know them.
2:12:31
She thinks I'm not. I need you on gala fly.
2:12:33
You toss up, you know. I know you can't come in.
2:12:37
I know what you two are. Like you know you.
2:12:40
Can't know all these. Other videos that you turn up on
2:12:42
planets and charm and seduce and think, you know, you're
2:12:45
wonderful. I know, you know, it's like like
2:12:49
your best friend, You know, sort of doing that to you and you
2:12:52
think. Why are you?
2:12:53
Doing that to me, I don't know exactly what you're like.
2:12:55
Why are you putting on this ridiculous act?
2:12:58
You know? Yeah, you gotta look.
2:12:59
You know, he's he's ridiculous. Well, you know, he's been
2:13:02
sitting, standing in the field of being a scarecrow for God
2:13:04
knows what. That's the level of, like, you
2:13:07
know, the master's genius with her.
2:13:10
She should have said. She should have had a throwaway
2:13:12
line. How long you been in that field
2:13:14
for then, waiting for him to turn?
2:13:17
Excuse me, why are you cosplaying words of gummage?
2:13:22
Although I believe she says well matched pair of pests rather
2:13:25
than pair of tossers. I know, but that's the the
2:13:28
underlying new subtext is you are a pair of morons.
2:13:31
Basically. I I was getting on perfectly
2:13:35
well. I was training all these people
2:13:37
of their brainpower. I've got the geniuses turn up
2:13:40
that'll help me even more. And then you two turn up and
2:13:45
it's like, oh bloody hell, you know, it's like, oh, I'm not
2:13:48
happy to see either of you, but. You could almost have a sitcom,
2:13:52
couldn't you? In a new historical period every
2:13:54
week where the round is set up and then the Doctor and the
2:13:57
Master turn up and we go, oh, here we go again.
2:13:59
I know exactly. It could be, You could take it
2:14:02
to be very sitcom here it's like, oh.
2:14:05
You've burned my skins. Will cost you, sort of.
2:14:08
But I really enjoyed that. I mean, it's, I mean, there's
2:14:10
some really very odd things, you know, tree mines.
2:14:13
I mean, what? And what the hell is Perry
2:14:16
dressed in? I mean, she's even wearing
2:14:18
nothing or what the hell that is supposed to be.
2:14:21
But it's enjoyable. It's you know it's not it's it's
2:14:25
it's sort of a bit you know it's just like quite fun you know
2:14:29
it's enjoyable. It is you know there's it's
2:14:31
probably you know there's something unbelievably high body
2:14:34
count into it. It's quite fun sort of way, you
2:14:40
know and it's like it's a nice sort of when it's an historical
2:14:44
as well which you know, you don't honestly get a lot of
2:14:46
those at this time so. We'll say it's the it's the
2:14:50
fruffiest massacre of the season, shall we?
2:14:52
It is. Pretty much So it's well, it's
2:14:54
like a tip and Jane Lovely, you know, it's like massacre with
2:14:58
like doilies. Have a log with death.
2:15:02
Yeah, exactly you. Know sort of like Channel 5
2:15:05
documentary about a cruise ship and everyone dies so.
2:15:08
Mara goes caravaning with death. I've watched that here.
2:15:15
We go read the comments. Yes, I'm ready.
2:15:18
I'm ready. Karen lit, Randall said.
2:15:20
I was relieved to reach this on the blue races.
2:15:23
It was refreshing after the doominess of the first two
2:15:26
stories. Rather empty, but pleasant.
2:15:29
Well, Quinn says Mark of the Rani is the story that comes
2:15:31
closest to marrying the style of previous seasons with the new
2:15:34
aesthetic of 22. Some pippin janeisms aside, this
2:15:37
is a good solid story which probably doesn't need the
2:15:40
Master, but let's Baker be the Doctor.
2:15:43
John Arnold said. I've grown quite fond of Mark of
2:15:46
the Rani over the years. From the script, the Baker
2:15:48
seemed to understand the tone and the need for the doctor to
2:15:50
be central, which is what we said earlier.
2:15:53
Steinhardt says Mark of the Rani is a small moment of joy in a
2:15:56
fun and nasty season. Zuzu, Jani said to the Rani is
2:16:01
great. I love the disdain she holds
2:16:03
both the Doctor and the Master in, and that she's immoral
2:16:06
rather than immoral. Her justification for turning
2:16:09
people into trees, etcetera. And finally, Tara McKay says I
2:16:13
still have no fucking clue why the Master pretended to be a
2:16:16
Scarecrow Eva. Your views on Mark of there are
2:16:21
no, no, nobody as Joe won you over.
2:16:26
OK, so I I. Feel very ambivalent about this
2:16:30
story and and the next one that we'll do as well.
2:16:34
I like it a lot more than I used to.
2:16:36
I I feel that when I when I first saw it, I thought, why is
2:16:41
the master even in this? He doesn't serve a purpose other
2:16:43
than to sort of be a bit of a punching bag and Comic Relief,
2:16:47
which. I guess is.
2:16:48
Is reasonable enough reason to include the character, if that's
2:16:52
the reason why it was included, but nonetheless sort of walked
2:16:54
away thinking much like, you know, why.
2:16:57
Why is he standing in that field dressed as a scarecrow?
2:17:00
Why is he even here? He doesn't.
2:17:01
He doesn't have a purpose other than just sort of disrupt stuff.
2:17:05
Beyond that, I kind of she didn't see the point of the
2:17:08
Rania's result of that because it's just basically a female
2:17:11
master. I actually don't agree with the
2:17:13
comment that of the Rania's amoral as opposed to immoral.
2:17:16
No, what she's doing is pretty immoral.
2:17:18
I think that's. Pretty clear to me.
2:17:20
I think, I think that an immoral thing sort of stems from, oh,
2:17:23
she's a bit of a scientist. Well, yeah, but.
2:17:25
Look. To what ends those those
2:17:28
sciences are being put to? This is, this is a
2:17:30
megalomaniacal, you know, evil genius.
2:17:33
Stephen, Stephen, Do you think about the lesser species when
2:17:36
you sink your teeth into to a lamb shop?
2:17:40
Well, yes, precisely So in that regard, you know, the Ronnie
2:17:45
just sort of came across as as a bit of a, well, it's just a
2:17:48
female master, which we eventually got with Messy and
2:17:51
maybe they just needed to be bold enough to sort of say,
2:17:53
yeah, this is now the Master. She's, she's, she's now a she.
2:17:56
And that's that's kind of where where we're at.
2:17:58
I do find Kate O'mara's performance absolutely
2:18:01
mesmerizing, though. She's a great deal of fun.
2:18:04
She she actually lifts this, and much more so than I ever
2:18:07
thought. And going back to it, just in
2:18:09
the last few days, I thought, oh, even more so this.
2:18:12
It's a great performance and I can understand why she came back
2:18:17
as well, but ultimately I just find it a bit dull.
2:18:20
I find it equivalent to, say, the visitation from the Davison
2:18:24
era. It's it's fine in and of itself
2:18:26
as a story. Is it particularly
2:18:27
consequential? Not really.
2:18:29
There was a comment they made that it's rather empty.
2:18:32
That's a great way to summarize it.
2:18:34
It does feel a bit inconsequential, a bit of fluff,
2:18:38
and for that reason it's not on the same level as time lashing,
2:18:42
certainly not the twin dilemma or attack of the sidemen.
2:18:44
So I can't, I can't, you know, strand this on the crag on the
2:18:49
craggy knob of Titan. This is a story that that passes
2:18:53
for me in a way that in in some series, well, in every series of
2:18:58
Doctor you're going to get a whether it's a monster of the
2:19:01
week or just a run around of. The week that's that's what this
2:19:03
is. This is.
2:19:04
This is an inconsequential light, Rather empty generally on
2:19:09
the whole, a bit of fun, even if it is not necessarily weighty or
2:19:13
a classic piece of example of Doctor Who.
2:19:17
So yeah, I think, I think I'll say that that fate and I'll,
2:19:21
I'll, I'll say yes, this, this goes through.
2:19:23
Ethan did you say it was dull? Yeah, I do find it dull.
2:19:27
I think fortuitous would be a more appetite.
2:19:33
Someone had to get it in. Not that the Prince of Darkness
2:19:39
down there will agree with you all right.
2:19:42
I'm going to agree and I'm keeping this one in as well.
2:19:46
I kind of agree with pretty much what everybody's said so far.
2:19:49
There's not an awful lot to talk about on this story because it
2:19:52
it doesn't offer that much. But it isn't it isn't offensive.
2:19:57
It's it's has got a lot of positives to it.
2:19:59
The Ronnie and Kate Omar were top of my list.
2:20:02
Yeah. She's not as camp as she is in
2:20:05
time in the army, which is a bit of a shame.
2:20:08
She does go a lot more OTT in her next outing, and I think
2:20:12
it's preferable for that. On the other hand, she is kind
2:20:15
of running a gay sauna, isn't she?
2:20:17
And she's got a big, she's got a big beefy chaps who are open
2:20:21
shirted and bleach blonde. Bleach blonde In that time,
2:20:25
Never mind, I'm not. I'm not condemning it.
2:20:26
She's got her muscle. Marys in the corner.
2:20:28
They had cream teas in that time.
2:20:30
All right. At least that sign that's still
2:20:32
upset, So yeah. I think she's having cream teas
2:20:35
in this gay sauna, but that's that's a story for another day.
2:20:40
Yeah, she's great, isn't she? She's just as dismissive of the
2:20:42
Doctor as she is of the Master. Her acting is just, I mean when
2:20:45
he walks in and he said the Master says I'm indestructible
2:20:49
and she just smiles at him. Is that so?
2:20:52
She's so patronizing. I think she's she's wonderful.
2:20:55
She's gives such a delicious performance.
2:20:57
She absolutely acts. Anthony Amy off the screen.
2:21:01
So yeah, she you can't help but love her.
2:21:04
The atmosphere and style, it's a nice style.
2:21:06
It's gentle. We've talked about the Jodi
2:21:09
season with Saturday and Sunday evening TV.
2:21:12
This feels very Sunday evening actually.
2:21:14
It's kind of got that Sunday evening gentle genteel feel to
2:21:19
it, but it's a nice story. It's nice and open.
2:21:21
Lovely location with Iron Bridge.
2:21:23
The music's really nice. Got a lovely score by Jonathan
2:21:26
Gibbs. It's quite a haunting score.
2:21:28
Directed very well. There's some lovely framing
2:21:30
shots, the shot of Colin in particular.
2:21:33
He comes into the Dow and the cameras in the foreground with
2:21:36
the spiders web and he's brain blurred in the background.
2:21:39
Is that about walking into the spiders web?
2:21:42
Really. That's, you know, lovely shot
2:21:43
and she does a couple of Sarah Hallings directors.
2:21:46
Her only story. She does some really nice
2:21:47
direction and again we get quite a nice Doctor and Perry
2:21:51
relationship. They're a little bit more
2:21:54
pleasant with each other. I love the final scene this when
2:21:58
he says what do you, what do the two of you do in the TARDIS and
2:22:01
the Doctors argue mainly. Yes.
2:22:04
OK they are. They are much warm.
2:22:06
It's. Just not like people.
2:22:07
And Jake Baker are the only people looking at the show
2:22:09
around them and actually commenting in the scripts with
2:22:12
the master, you know, the master of the doctor that, you know,
2:22:15
being criticized, the arguing, being criticized, yeah.
2:22:19
And there's a fabulous cliffhanger.
2:22:20
If it does get slightly undermined by the cutting in of
2:22:24
Stevenson in the next episode, it's it's a lot celebrity,
2:22:27
historical. There's some lovely set designs,
2:22:30
particularly the Iran is TARDIS, but the plot does run out of
2:22:34
steam in Part 2. There is actually a plot here,
2:22:37
unlike many of the others in 22, but again, it's a lot of set up.
2:22:41
In part one there's not a lot. It's a bit of a run around in
2:22:44
episode 2, but it's it's pleasant.
2:22:49
It's not going to win any awards.
2:22:50
It's the greatest story of all time.
2:22:52
But I'm not going to condemn it to Titan 3, so no cruddy knob
2:22:56
for Mark of the Rally. All three of you use one word
2:22:59
there in your defence or discussion of Mark of the rally
2:23:04
that none of you have used in any of the other stories of this
2:23:07
season. And that is the word fun.
2:23:11
And this is fun. And I think it's probably the
2:23:13
only, I mean, I find Revelation of Darkness is quite fun, but in
2:23:16
a very twisted sort of way actually.
2:23:18
And the two doctors, actually, my arguments just fall into
2:23:20
pieces. Sorry guys, but all three of you
2:23:23
did use the word fun. And I think the most fun you get
2:23:26
out of this is the three Time Lords together, right?
2:23:29
And they're very clearly with the language delineating between
2:23:35
the sort of the peasants. Yeah.
2:23:37
So the people from the historical setting and the Time
2:23:40
Lords and their honesty, the three of them, the Masters,
2:23:43
Irani and the Doctor, are given some of the most grandiose
2:23:46
dialogue you've ever heard in your entire life, but all of it
2:23:50
to the aim of being completely bitchy with each other, which is
2:23:53
just glorious. So I love all of their
2:23:56
interactions together, all the insults.
2:23:59
You know, your regeneration isn't very, very attractive, is
2:24:01
it? You know, I don't want.
2:24:02
I love all of that. Everything you said about the
2:24:05
production, Rod, I think is true.
2:24:06
I think it's one of the most beautiful stories of the season.
2:24:09
It's very easy on the eye and it's lovely to listen to because
2:24:11
the score is beautiful. That opening shot, that sort of
2:24:15
celebrated opening shot of the the guys coming out of the mine
2:24:20
is beautiful. It leads you into thinking
2:24:22
you're getting quite a different story to what you actually get.
2:24:25
I think this, the plot is missing one thing.
2:24:27
It feels like it's building up right to this great meeting of
2:24:31
the scientific minds and that they're all going to be murdered
2:24:36
because all they keep mentioning it throughout the story.
2:24:40
And then at the end that never happens.
2:24:42
It just gets forgotten about. Which is really odd right up to
2:24:45
the bit where you know the masters going, you know Luke,
2:24:47
this this meeting must take place.
2:24:49
So really feel that all the arrows are pointing in that
2:24:52
direction And then we just go to the woods and have rubber trees
2:24:56
and it's like it's very odd because the plot is sort of
2:24:59
bubbling. You know it's not particularly
2:25:01
compelling, but it is. It's easy to follow and fairly
2:25:05
engaging. Colin's great in this again and
2:25:09
Colin gets they, they absolutely love Colin Baker.
2:25:12
Pippen, Jamie, you've only got to listen to the commentaries.
2:25:15
R Colin, they call him, you know, and they write him up and
2:25:19
they give him very sayable words, ridiculously complicated
2:25:23
words. They've like been there at the
2:25:25
thesaurus going right. They will trip him up this week.
2:25:27
And he, you know, of course, he gets it all out.
2:25:29
Beautiful. It's like nectar coming out of
2:25:31
his mouth and he gets again here, isn't he, Joe?
2:25:34
Yeah, he's the star of the show. It's the one story, the season
2:25:38
where he's absolutely the star of the show and they remember
2:25:41
that, Yeah, this is fun. It's really fun to watch.
2:25:45
I do think the last 15 minutes feel really airless, but before
2:25:51
that I don't mind running around in history with camp and
2:25:56
operatic villains. That's my bag.
2:25:59
So it's definitely staining. And I'm surprised, Joe, you
2:26:02
didn't give that an extra brownie point for the scene in
2:26:04
episode 2 where the Doctor says something is staring me right in
2:26:07
the face when Luke stood behind him with a massive bulge.
2:26:11
Ah, unbelievable. No, I like the line that Kate
2:26:14
Amara gets about the master being dizzy if he tries to walk
2:26:17
in a straight line. That's my favorite line of the
2:26:19
whole thing. It's just brilliant.
2:26:21
She's brilliant, even when she's on her own and she's got no one
2:26:24
to act against. She's brilliant.
2:26:26
Yeah, marvellous. Marcus, Ronnie goes through.
2:26:29
So we're on to our last story. The Two Doctors.
2:26:31
Do you want to take it, Joe? Do you want me to take it?
2:26:33
Oh, may I? You can go for.
2:26:36
It may I OK, I'm going to sing you a little song.
2:26:39
We're all going on our summer holiday.
2:26:43
Oh my God. I love the two doctors so much
2:26:45
and I am not unaware of its flaws.
2:26:48
It is too long. At times it feels like a a a
2:26:52
theatre, like a like a play. Because there's very long
2:26:56
dialogue scenes. The very thing I criticize Rod
2:26:59
in Keeper of Track and I'm complimenting here, I do love
2:27:04
all the stuff in and around Seville and I know it is a bit
2:27:07
cynical. We are just going on a holiday
2:27:09
for no terrific reason, but so refreshing to not be in in
2:27:14
England for a bit, you know, in locations that you're never
2:27:17
going to see in England as well. So I feel as if it kind of
2:27:20
justifies itself because the money is on the screen and it
2:27:23
feels different. It has a different sort of
2:27:25
flavour to it than anything we've seen before or since.
2:27:27
Even when we've gone back to Spain again, like Vengeance
2:27:30
Avaros and Revelation of the Dialects.
2:27:33
I think this sports a stunning cast of actors.
2:27:38
You've got Jon Strassen, who delivers the the most memorable
2:27:42
performance of the year for me, absolutely terrifying and very
2:27:46
funny at the same time. That's a hard line to to pull.
2:27:49
Jacqueline Pierce not doing a knockoff server land, I don't
2:27:52
think, as everybody says, I think there's something a bit
2:27:54
colder about her hair. Patrick Trousson and Fraser
2:27:57
Hines are back being warm and lovely and all the things that
2:28:01
Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant are never allowed to be and it's
2:28:05
lovely to see them. James Saxon as Oscar Botcherbee.
2:28:09
Oh, isn't he marvellous? Please take care of my beautiful
2:28:13
mouths. I love him so much.
2:28:16
Lawrence Paines, Dastari. I think they're more than up to
2:28:20
the task of bringing these grotesque, funny and charming
2:28:24
characters to life. And I I do think as a cast of
2:28:27
characters, it's neck and neck with Revelation of the Daleks
2:28:31
for me. You just you just don't forget
2:28:33
about them. But especially Shock Eye, who's
2:28:35
so hauling in places where he tears a chunk out of the rat,
2:28:40
you know, or the bit where he just comes in with the Sontar
2:28:43
and Lake Huffington Green blood. Oh, he's brilliant.
2:28:47
I think I heard Rob Schuman say this and I was watching this
2:28:50
this time with an eye on this, that this is one time where
2:28:55
Robert Holmes just really luxuriated in the chance to just
2:29:00
write rich, gorgeous dialogue and just every line of this
2:29:06
script is quotable. It is just beautiful.
2:29:09
Read it as a script. Read the novel of this.
2:29:12
It's beautiful. In fact, the novel is quite a
2:29:14
different beast. Stephen, you and I should talk
2:29:16
about one day about the Hamster Book Club, you know?
2:29:19
But I just think, yeah, on the page it's dealing with some
2:29:22
interesting themes. It's conjuring up some terrific
2:29:25
characters. It gives the Doctor and Perry
2:29:28
some really fun stuff to do. I love all of the Christopher
2:29:31
Columbus. He had a lot to answer for.
2:29:34
Looking straight over his shoulder at her, I think, yeah.
2:29:37
I don't think it's his most disciplined script by a mile.
2:29:40
It's utterly indulgent. It is too long, you know, I
2:29:43
think he would have preferred to have written two parts and
2:29:47
without all the stipulations of Sontarans and and all of that.
2:29:50
But he sort of just puts it all in and then just enjoys writing
2:29:54
words and they're terrifically memorable words at that.
2:29:59
So yeah, just I once said that The Two Doctors was the most
2:30:04
entertaining story of the 1980s. I don't think that anymore, but
2:30:09
I always watch it with a smile on my face.
2:30:12
I like being around the characters.
2:30:13
It does have an edge to it, but I think it's tempered by a sense
2:30:17
of humor and the sunniness of the location.
2:30:21
And then my last thing is, it is one of the most beautiful scores
2:30:25
you're ever going to hear. That fusion of the the Spanish
2:30:30
music, which is what I think it's done on instruments, and
2:30:32
the science fiction music, which is just as good.
2:30:35
It's Peter House, one of his absolute best.
2:30:38
So I'm definitely keeping the two doctors in because it makes
2:30:41
me smile a lot. Fabulous, let's go to the
2:30:44
comments. Electronic dance says.
2:30:47
I enjoy the two doctors, but Shock Eye and the Doctor turning
2:30:49
into an anthrogram climax? Bring it down for me.
2:30:53
Paul Quinn easily Holmes. His worst script.
2:30:56
I'm sorry. Further crippled by stupid
2:30:58
production decisions. There is a good idea buried
2:31:00
here, but it's essentially dead on arrival, butchered by too
2:31:03
many episodes, Horrific customer make up decisions which wrecked
2:31:07
the vegetarian argument, and terrible tonal inconsistencies
2:31:11
and problems with plotting utter shite which makes Time Lash look
2:31:15
almost competent in comparison. Fair enough, Lucy McCall says
2:31:20
It's enjoyable because the chemistry between the doctors
2:31:22
and companions, the idea of lesser races is uncomfortable.
2:31:26
But it's interesting to have an episode that's militantly
2:31:28
vegetarian. London, Colin.
2:31:30
Two Doctors is compellingly strange, but having Patent,
2:31:33
Fraser and even some ineffectual Sontarans feels like an empty
2:31:36
but knowing, nostalgic not. Craig Williams said.
2:31:40
I used to love the two doctors, but I've grown out of it now.
2:31:43
Grown out of it Darren McKay, The Two Doctors is still my
2:31:46
favorite. The location work.
2:31:48
Cicini, Shokai, a truly repulsive monster, and Trouton.
2:31:52
Such a shame he and Colin didn't have more scenes together, even
2:31:55
the Santaras. Mark Booth said the two doctors
2:31:58
is downright embarrassing and insulting to one's intelligence.
2:32:02
Darren lit Randall's way too long, but it has enough spark in
2:32:05
the writing. If only it was more like the
2:32:08
book than what Moffett. Did and Big Orange.
2:32:11
Michael said best of the season is the 2 Doctors.
2:32:13
Part one is magnificent, right? I'm going to be the first one to
2:32:17
respond on this one to the Two Doctors and I'm going to
2:32:21
disagree with you again. Joe.
2:32:22
I'm afraid we're becoming a bit of a theme this time around.
2:32:26
I just find it a bit lacking. So first reason is I just think
2:32:30
there's a lack of plot. And you kind of said to
2:32:32
yourself, there's lots of characters, there's lots of
2:32:34
dialogue, but in terms of plot, it is a bit running on empty.
2:32:39
There is absolutely not enough to fill 345 minute episodes.
2:32:44
And the plot that we do have is very basic, very perfunctory.
2:32:48
And I think that's highlighted most at the end when we wrap it
2:32:52
up with a series of murders, a little bit more knifing and a
2:32:55
simple switcheroo. It just, it just feels like
2:33:00
Homes is kind of lacking that inventiveness and that
2:33:02
creativity that you've shown me before.
2:33:04
I know Time Access are not always owns his strength, but
2:33:08
here it does just feel very limp at the end.
2:33:11
It does have a A to B to C though.
2:33:13
You were saying that a lot of? Season doesn't.
2:33:15
They always follow like you know he.
2:33:18
Has go for. So he goes to the station.
2:33:20
So he goes to that. So you know it does follow a
2:33:23
linear progression block. It does.
2:33:25
It does, Yeah. Unlike many of the others.
2:33:27
It does indeed. But I just it's just not enough
2:33:30
to. I mean the part when we get
2:33:31
those interminable scenes walking around the the ducting,
2:33:35
the feel like they've gone on for about 3 hours and you end up
2:33:38
with that very bizarre cliffhanger of Jamie dry humping
2:33:42
Perry under a blanket. I've no idea why.
2:33:47
He's been on his own for a while.
2:33:48
Why does he end up pumping out? It's just.
2:33:51
Very, very odd. Have you heard about Fraser
2:33:53
Hynes? I'm sorry.
2:33:54
I'll stop. There, yeah.
2:33:55
It goes back to what Joe Short was saying before about some of
2:33:57
the kind of uncomfortableness Part 2 and three.
2:34:01
There's just so much chasing around Seville that you can have
2:34:04
outside of our holiday programme.
2:34:07
Why are we in Seville? I know it was written to be New
2:34:10
Orleans and it makes sense for that with the angry gums, with
2:34:12
the food. They couldn't afford New Orleans
2:34:15
so went to Seville, but they didn't bother to write a reason
2:34:19
why it's Seville. So it kind of feels like the
2:34:21
story and the characters are desperate for location.
2:34:24
It thematically it doesn't work so they just don't bother, they
2:34:27
just run around. I don't like personally the 2nd
2:34:31
doctor being turned into an Andrew Gum and then the 6th
2:34:33
Doctor almost being turned into an Andrew.
2:34:36
It feels a bit cheap and a bit sitcom when Collins running,
2:34:40
chasing a cat and Patrick Troughton sitting in ABBC studio
2:34:44
restaurant with those Rice Krispies and Red eyebrows, I'm
2:34:49
kind of losing the will to live a little bit.
2:34:51
I love those seasons. I find that a horrible diversion
2:34:55
in the plot. I just think it just lacks a bit
2:34:58
of the Holmes magic shock. I I will absolutely agree with
2:35:01
you. I think he's, I think he is the
2:35:04
one saving grace of it. He's an absolute great test,
2:35:07
played with such relish by John Stratton.
2:35:09
I love him. I think he's magnificent all his
2:35:12
lives, the delivery of his lives, he's salivating all his
2:35:15
looks. He absolutely embodies that
2:35:18
character. He's wonderful.
2:35:19
If he's not talking, all he's doing is going.
2:35:23
Oh, all the time. It's very.
2:35:26
It's really uncomfortable. Yeah, I know.
2:35:28
Someone can't mention a shepherd's pie anymore with her.
2:35:30
A shepherd? Yeah, he's he's brilliant.
2:35:34
Just see me lack the best spark on the page.
2:35:36
Jacqueline Pierce gives a great performance.
2:35:38
She's not as camp as possibly as she might have been, but she
2:35:41
certainly embodies that character.
2:35:43
And it was her that came up with the idea of dropping to the
2:35:45
ground and licking up the doctor's blood, which is quite a
2:35:48
it's a shocking moment, but I think that's a really strong
2:35:51
moment for her. You don't think she's camping
2:35:54
this? No, I don't actually.
2:35:56
I had, I had lies. A vision.
2:35:59
She's in. Reins in a fair bit compared to
2:36:04
Alan LeBron. In in.
2:36:06
Oh, well, yes. But then you get Stike and Val
2:36:10
and I just think they're just horrible.
2:36:13
I mean, people moan about, you know, us having comedy sometimes
2:36:16
with Struck these days, but Strike and Val, they take.
2:36:20
Yes, they're militaristic and that joke is just labour to
2:36:23
death. It comes in with a swagger stick
2:36:26
and it's just they do not work as on sirens in that story at
2:36:30
all. And I find Dastari quite dull
2:36:32
and I don't love Oscar and Anita.
2:36:35
You're breaking my heart as you're assassinating all these
2:36:38
characters. Okay.
2:36:40
Production In the season 18 thing we podcast we did, I
2:36:45
really praised Peter Moffat for State of Decay here.
2:36:48
Oh my God. He's gone from from heights to
2:36:51
the depths. The direction is terrible.
2:36:54
It's absolutely flat. What do you?
2:36:57
Expect he just set the camera up and said right, I think I'm
2:37:00
going to have a sangria. Yeah, I'm going back to the
2:37:02
pool. It's flat, It's lifeless than
2:37:05
obviously the opening shot would when we first see the Sun Sirens
2:37:08
in Long shot is just unforgivable Oscar being killed
2:37:13
in a restaurant and nobody reacting to it at all.
2:37:17
It's horrific. There's some masks that don't
2:37:19
move when people speak. Those actors and you see the
2:37:24
great big gap in the neck. They didn't.
2:37:27
Pay. They didn't pay the actors in
2:37:28
the restaurant enough, so they weren't allowed to actually say
2:37:31
words. Whether someone died, it just
2:37:32
go. I mean it's horrible and there's
2:37:36
far too many stabbings. Again, is weird.
2:37:39
The outcry in the papers at the time was when Shock Eye ate the
2:37:43
rat, which I thought was a bit of comedy.
2:37:45
Nobody complained in the papers about all the stabbings and
2:37:48
murders. But eating the rat caused an
2:37:50
outcry. Yeah, it's not my favorite.
2:37:53
I agree with you Joe. The score is fantastic.
2:37:55
It's great to see Pat and Fraser.
2:37:57
Don't think that really they're bringing in their A game.
2:37:59
But there's just not enough here to fill 345 minutes.
2:38:02
So off to the craggy knob for me, I'm.
2:38:05
Sad for you, honestly. It's such a delight.
2:38:09
Even I I don't think I've heard anyone speak tonight, echoing my
2:38:15
own thoughts so closely as what has just been on the two
2:38:18
doctors. I have to start start by saying
2:38:22
that when I first came across the story, I hated it.
2:38:26
I I felt betrayed that this is what Doctor Who now was and
2:38:31
particularly again Collins. You know, propensity for
2:38:35
violence. His Doctor's propensity for
2:38:37
violence I just thought was so unforgivable in so many of these
2:38:41
situations. And again this is, this is my 14
2:38:47
year old critical self starting to to see Doctor Who has not not
2:38:51
all of it being great and and this really sort of maybe
2:38:54
suffered as a result. In the meantime, I've probably
2:38:58
understood come to understand at least the the complexities and
2:39:01
the sort of nuances of maybe what the subtext of the script
2:39:05
is particularly around you know we know Bob Holmes was a
2:39:08
vegetarian or or something along those lines.
2:39:11
And it's it's a comment on you know the human you know,
2:39:16
humanities relationship I guess with with with meats and the
2:39:20
meat industry. And I think all those things are
2:39:22
valid, but I just don't think any of it actually pays.
2:39:24
Off here this is as. Nasty as revelation or as
2:39:28
Pharaohs, but it doesn't pull it off because the script and
2:39:32
whisper this quietly is not very good at all and I'm afraid you
2:39:35
know to say that of a Robert Holmes story.
2:39:37
This just whether it's the the shopping list aspect where
2:39:41
undoubtedly JNT would have said it's got to have some times it's
2:39:44
got to be in in the USA. No, now it's now it's in civil.
2:39:49
Parents can do a shopping list. We've seen that in the five
2:39:51
doctors and we've ironically enough seen that Bob can't.
2:39:55
Bob Holmes can't do that because he actually said I can't write
2:39:59
the five doctors. And that comes across here in
2:40:02
this story, Shock eyes. That visceral.
2:40:06
Grossness of that sort of cannibalistic and I know they're
2:40:10
not strictly cannibal because they're not humans but I think
2:40:12
it's sort of you know close enough in terms of humanoid
2:40:15
cannibalism or whatever the correct term might be in sci-fi
2:40:19
is is just too far that that scene which is seen he licks the
2:40:24
doctor's blood off the the the floor of the off the ground and
2:40:27
you see the star in wince that's too far the the violence is too
2:40:35
much I think because the script is too little unlike the.
2:40:39
Scripts. Of Revelation and of Pharos.
2:40:41
And so it it just doesn't. It just doesn't pull it off in
2:40:47
the same way that those two do. I totally agreed that Troughton
2:40:50
and Colin just don't have enough screen time together.
2:40:52
There isn't. They don't even have enough time
2:40:55
as. The Doctor This sort of the.
2:40:57
The Androgum versions of the cells for too long, particularly
2:41:00
Pat and so that's that's a real you know, detraction from from
2:41:05
the story as well and. As a result.
2:41:09
I think as even though I don't hate it to the same level that I
2:41:13
did before and I don't hate it now, I just don't think it's
2:41:15
very good. I just, I just think it fails in
2:41:17
all the things that it's trying to do.
2:41:20
I I can't give this the benefit in the same way that I perhaps
2:41:23
did for Mark the Ronnie. I think this is a story that
2:41:26
ultimately doesn't achieve what it's trying to do and is
2:41:30
unpleasant along the whole 180 minutes or whatever it is.
2:41:35
What is it? 9000 and 35 minutes?
2:41:38
It feels like 180 it. Really does, it seems.
2:41:41
Like 10 minutes. To me, and none of it's
2:41:43
enjoyable, so I'm afraid, yes, off to the craggy novel of Titan
2:41:47
it goes. How could you?
2:41:49
Have two such contrasting opinions and that's me say
2:41:52
that's the most entertaining story, and you say there's
2:41:56
nothing pleasant about it at all.
2:41:58
Season 22 for you? Yeah, it really.
2:42:01
Is, yeah. It's a good one to talk about
2:42:03
27. Joe Short, What?
2:42:05
Even though it's going, it'd be nice to hear your views.
2:42:08
Your bits I really love. I love Jacqueline Pierce.
2:42:11
I mean the only other thing I've ever seen I mean is obviously
2:42:14
server Len which is like Pete can.
2:42:17
I think she's quite subtle in it's a bit there are moments but
2:42:22
I, you know her character is really fascinating.
2:42:23
She saw at least sort of like she's been basically eugenics
2:42:27
into like what the starve. He thinks he's like a decent
2:42:30
person because you know the anger comes basically this
2:42:33
lowlife form. He sort of like genetically
2:42:35
engineered her to to better herself in advert to commerce.
2:42:41
And I like that Robert Hood's dialogue and some of the lines
2:42:44
of you know, he's on top form for that.
2:42:47
I mean some of the things it's like I love it when I mean and
2:42:50
obviously it's all the best lines.
2:42:52
I mean I love him. It's so sort of like, it's very
2:42:55
soft. You can see he's like Henry
2:42:57
Gordon J. Goes sort of light, you know,
2:42:59
he's sort of very theatrical and sort of I love the bit when he's
2:43:03
like talking about his grandfather.
2:43:05
He goes, he slept in a steel helmet for five years, which is
2:43:09
just like this ridiculous line. It's like.
2:43:12
You know what's great, Joe? Joe.
2:43:14
Where'd he goes? What is it like?
2:43:16
A star on my dressing room door becomes conspicuous by its
2:43:19
absence. I know.
2:43:21
It's like when they say it's like little things.
2:43:24
It's like they say you got, you got.
2:43:26
What did you do to upset the British Council?
2:43:29
I think he. Goes Why?
2:43:32
Don't you know you upset the British Council?
2:43:34
So you think, Oh my God, what? Did he do?
2:43:36
This is like that. And it's just they were good
2:43:38
things. I mean, it's lovely to see
2:43:40
Patrick, but he's just not in it.
2:43:42
I mean, you know, it was like and if the 1st 10 minutes
2:43:44
buggers off, it's like such like a 1960s episode.
2:43:48
You know, you say they're not there or he's lying down, he's.
2:43:51
High every. So it does brandish a cucumber
2:43:54
well, though, doesn't it? I'll carry on with your
2:43:56
butchery. Yeah, well, I knew you'd enjoy
2:43:58
that, Joe. But you know, it's, you know,
2:44:00
it's a fun. But again, I agree with all of
2:44:03
you, it's don't we don't miss three episodes.
2:44:06
Episode three, they were running up and down Seville.
2:44:09
And you think, oh, for God's sake, just got, you know,
2:44:12
they've got to be all that sort of, oh, we come out of one
2:44:15
corner and they come back. We're not the corner and we
2:44:17
don't see each other. And you go, oh, we don't need
2:44:19
this. It's just like get rid of that.
2:44:21
Just not the violence. I agree with the violence.
2:44:24
Surveillance is this is probably the worst violence of the entire
2:44:28
season. He's got like killing, killing,
2:44:30
killing, killing, killing. You know we'll kill a blind old
2:44:33
lady. Yay.
2:44:34
We're. Killing.
2:44:35
Him as a truck driver. Yay.
2:44:36
We're Stan Paul Oscar in his own restaurant.
2:44:39
Yay. The licking blood off the floor.
2:44:41
I agree totally. That's a very because it just
2:44:43
shows that you know whatever you do all this sort of like
2:44:47
engineering at the star is done. It's not good.
2:44:50
You know suddenly your your, your real nature will come
2:44:53
through in situation. Sometimes you just can't help
2:44:56
yourself and then you've got this number but you've got you
2:44:59
know the bit where the Doctor basically poison killing shock
2:45:03
away. Now that's it's just a fire
2:45:06
because of the shock is a horrible character and he's
2:45:08
trying to kill him, but it's just something so horrible about
2:45:13
the Doctor doing that and it's just every does that was hot you
2:45:17
know and this is. So physical.
2:45:20
And, yeah, and it's also like, you know, everyone, she got
2:45:22
Chekhov's arsenic. It's been set off right back in
2:45:25
the room, you know, oh, I'm killed butterflies with that.
2:45:28
And you know, it's like, oh, you know, that's interesting but and
2:45:32
then but it's just so sort of it just does not seem, I mean you
2:45:36
know, the doctor, you know, it's kill or be killed, you
2:45:38
understand. But that's just seems so nasty
2:45:43
and it's very it's, you know, a lot of the elements of this are
2:45:46
just nasty. Again, you've got like the
2:45:49
sexualization, Perry, where you've got basically.
2:45:52
Then again, they sexualized Jamie a bit when you were
2:45:54
around, take the one in the skirt and shock eyes basically
2:45:57
leering over Jamie as much as he ever did.
2:45:59
Leer over sort of Perry, which is, you know, well, you can do
2:46:05
that to men as well. We think that's.
2:46:09
All right then. Yeah.
2:46:11
OK. Equal.
2:46:12
Opportunities lusting after sort of innocent people sort of
2:46:15
thing, but it's too long. It's too violent.
2:46:20
It's just and it's it gives you, it's a bit of a nasty taste left
2:46:23
in the mouth for the whole thing.
2:46:26
If you say like the Mark of the Ronnie sort of it's in the
2:46:28
moment. It's like a palate cleanser, you
2:46:30
know, it's light, it's fluffy. You know, it really doesn't
2:46:34
bring anything to the season as a whole, but it's all right.
2:46:38
This is like, you know, you've got the Doctor, you know, oh,
2:46:40
it's the big sort of, oh, Patrick Charlton's coming back.
2:46:43
But it's just like it leaves, it leaves this sort of really
2:46:45
bitter taste in the mouth when you've watched it and there's
2:46:49
just something not nice about it.
2:46:52
So I'm going to have to Chuck it out.
2:46:55
Right, so we. Have.
2:46:59
We've lost four stories, We've lost Twin Dile, we've lost
2:47:02
Attack, we've lost two Doctors and we've lost time.
2:47:05
Lash, so round two is going to be incredibly quick.
2:47:08
Very sure, yeah. Well, round one was 3 hours
2:47:11
lost. Before we get to the final
2:47:16
round, which will just take probably about two minutes,
2:47:19
should we just do the final comments?
2:47:20
In case it sways anyone's opinions in the in the last
2:47:24
round, let's do the last. Lots of listeners comments and
2:47:27
let's start with Paul Dunn who said of season 22.
2:47:30
I really like it. 12 year old, me loved it.
2:47:34
Dark, gritty and varied stands up with the best of Doctor Who,
2:47:37
which I don't think is what we've been saying tonight.
2:47:41
I've been saying, excuse me, James Welland says.
2:47:44
I watched season 22 a long time after season 23 and listening to
2:47:48
a fair amount of Colin Baker Big Finish, so I knew where it was
2:47:51
heading. It's OK OTT violence is not my
2:47:54
cup of tea. Colin, when he's in it, is
2:47:57
pretty good. But these are not stories I'm
2:47:59
eager to revisit. From Nuisance, they're bigger
2:48:02
and bolder. Revelation is so confident.
2:48:04
Mark of the Ronnie is so lush. Philip Martin is a bold new
2:48:08
voice, but lacking in moments of charm.
2:48:10
Between the doctor and Parry, criticism you could apply to
2:48:13
other seasons. And wow, the script had a thing.
2:48:17
Gavin says Brilliant new villains in Silver and the
2:48:20
Ronnie Yes plus in plus. I think 60 and Perry are so good
2:48:24
together. The squabbling doesn't bother
2:48:26
me. Ends on a high with a brilliant
2:48:28
revelation. Will be says 60 has good
2:48:31
gravitas and him and Perry are fab.
2:48:33
There's some great cliffhangers, nice mix of vintage hue, but
2:48:36
starting to get slicker with effects and audio.
2:48:39
Carry On says it jumps around from all time classic stories
2:48:44
that I find genuinely to ones I find genuinely off putting.
2:48:47
But above all this, I think the thing I most admire is how Colin
2:48:50
and Nicola thrive in the excellent material, interesting
2:48:54
and are able to elevate more middling scenes.
2:48:57
People always think 6 is unlikeable in 22, but Colin is
2:49:00
wonderful at reinterpreting lions or even whole scenes and
2:49:04
giving the doctor a much kinder, warmer sense of interiority.
2:49:08
James Sylvester says a personal favorite, though with some
2:49:10
glaringly significant issues. Baros is a masterpiece, and
2:49:14
every story has a sparkle of excellence to it.
2:49:17
Even time Lash. Wow.
2:49:20
Michael Reed. A very odd season all over the
2:49:22
place. Tonally like vengeance.
2:49:25
Sorry, I liked vengeance as a teen.
2:49:26
Loved Revelation. But the rest is crazy.
2:49:29
Weird. Panto one minute, cheap as the
2:49:31
next and then brilliant in places.
2:49:33
That's why I love it. Confusing, to say the least.
2:49:36
Mark R, said Utter. Pish.
2:49:39
So excited when it began, but stopped watching after episode
2:49:42
Two of The Two Doctors as I was too embarrassed to continue.
2:49:46
And by the way, I was nine years old.
2:49:48
Oh, you can't be cynical at nine years old, surely inclusive,
2:49:52
Universe says. I genuinely love season 22.
2:49:55
I don't think anyone in the target audience found it too
2:49:57
violent. It had grown up with the
2:49:59
audience. It was never meant for young
2:50:01
children. It was made by the drama
2:50:02
department. The dark humour was great.
2:50:05
Yeah, I think the only thing I'd argue, like I said earlier, this
2:50:08
was going out at 5:20 in the Pink Panther basil brush slot.
2:50:11
Yeah, I'm not sure all those stabbings were.
2:50:14
Yeah, you didn't see Basil Brush stabbing Mr. Roy to that video.
2:50:18
He's. Bought a lot of things up a bit,
2:50:20
that's. That's, that's basil brush after
2:50:23
dark, isn't it? That's.
2:50:25
Like a puzzle? Yeah.
2:50:28
Marcus English said as a kid. I loved it.
2:50:31
Watched it recently when the blue whale was released and
2:50:33
found the sum of its parts greater than The whole
2:50:36
revelation is a stand out story. The rest I find really
2:50:39
inconsistent. Amy says I've never quite gotten
2:50:43
why. Common wisdom is that season 22
2:50:46
was this massive, glaring dipping quality from the
2:50:48
Davidson era. Did Davidson's run have higher
2:50:51
highs? Yes.
2:50:52
But would I take a bad 6th Doctor story over a bad 5th
2:50:55
Doctor story any day of the week?
2:50:58
Oh, she doesn't say yes or no. Always have energy.
2:51:01
They're never boring. Colin is giving us all.
2:51:04
I think we can assume she is taking that the 6th Doctor
2:51:07
stories. Have the Season 22 has a special
2:51:10
place in my heart as a kid. I love the nostalgia element of
2:51:13
the season. Plus the two doctors.
2:51:15
What's not to love? SJQ Then the deer of the same
2:51:19
with era. And therefore then the deer of
2:51:22
Doctor Who. Oh, there are parallels with the
2:51:25
chip. No, era.
2:51:26
Oh good grief. Unpopular Dr. Characterization.
2:51:29
Unpopular costume. The showrunners either
2:51:31
incompetent or asleep at the wheel.
2:51:34
A presumed cancellation, only to be desperately renewed, ETC.
2:51:39
London Calling said I think it was the first season to
2:51:41
seriously lean into fan appeasement.
2:51:44
This is all down to JNT. Surely so much of it feels
2:51:47
beholden to certain super fans the time naming their names, and
2:51:51
I don't think it was a good move for the show.
2:51:53
Also, given JN TS anxiety about how he wanted the brand to come
2:51:56
across, Saywood was clearly never of the same philosophy and
2:52:00
that conflict was not beneficial in a creative way.
2:52:03
Other than that, colonies somehow consistently excellent
2:52:06
throughout. Thank goodness.
2:52:08
Yeah, I mean, we've all said this college is great, right?
2:52:11
But just let down an awful lot. Finally, Carter Ferguson very
2:52:16
succinctly says the best season for me.
2:52:20
And what a positive way to leave it.
2:52:22
So we're heading now into round two.
2:52:25
When I fired up the randomizer. We've only got 3 stories left,
2:52:29
believe me. It's going to take long.
2:52:31
It's 2 rounds, so it's going to be very quick.
2:52:33
We're only left with Benjamin Barros, Mark of the Rami, and
2:52:36
Revelation of the Dialects, so I'm going to spin a random wheel
2:52:41
and we have Revelation of the Daleks going into battle with
2:52:48
Mark of the Rami. Revelation of the Daleks by a
2:52:53
mile. Revelation.
2:52:57
Revelation. Well, I'm voted out.
2:53:00
Whatever, so it looks like Ronnie is gone.
2:53:04
So we're left between the two nasties of the season, vengeance
2:53:07
on Varus and revelation of the Daleks.
2:53:09
So. Before you do that, can I ask
2:53:11
you guys? I knew this was going to come
2:53:13
down to revelation of vengeance. I just somehow knew.
2:53:16
Did you guys feel the same? Yeah, I absolutely, Yeah.
2:53:22
For me. It's yeah, I thought.
2:53:24
Maybe attack might be in there, but I thought looking at it, I
2:53:28
can see why it's these two. Yeah, I.
2:53:31
Think generally on this podcast. We have bucked the trend with
2:53:34
most seasons, but I think probably these two shine out
2:53:38
above the other so. And we've had a positive reading
2:53:41
of time lash, the twin dilemma. You know, like we have done a
2:53:45
bit of bucking today. We have.
2:53:48
You can't do too much bucking in one podcast, no.
2:53:52
So we're on to the. I'm in a library.
2:53:55
I can't do any bucking at all. It's OK.
2:53:58
I'll get. I'll get.
2:53:58
Banned So. So we are on to the final
2:54:03
battle. Is it going to be Varos or is it
2:54:06
going to be darlings? Let's go with our guest,
2:54:10
Stephen. It's varos only, just but it is
2:54:14
varos and trust. Him Joe Short.
2:54:18
It's revelations. It's revelation, yeah.
2:54:22
Joe. We're going to have a tie again,
2:54:25
aren't we? It's revelation.
2:54:35
Do you know what? For all I condemned Revelation
2:54:38
earlier, I did start by saying it had the most compelling
2:54:42
scenes, have the best production.
2:54:44
It was the most accomplished. Yeah, there's a lot in now
2:54:48
that's wrong with it, but there's a lot that's wrong with
2:54:50
Baros as well. It suffers from a similar
2:54:52
thread, I think, of that lack of linear progression of a natural
2:54:55
story. So I will buck the trend and I'm
2:54:59
going to go with revelation of if it's if it's pushed the shot
2:55:02
between those two, I'll go Revelation.
2:55:05
A worthy winner, I would say, for 22.
2:55:09
Probably the obvious winner. Yeah, I don't think anyone will
2:55:13
see Mark and Ronnie come in third though.
2:55:17
Possibly a comment on how good the season is?
2:55:20
Yeah, there's it's an odd season, but I think like you
2:55:24
rightly said, Joe, we've we've raised some to the highs and
2:55:27
we've castigated some to the lows during tonight.
2:55:30
So I think we've done that, a fair, fair, it's had a fair
2:55:33
hearing. To take that terrible record, we
2:55:37
should just call it Doctor Who in distress.
2:55:39
Shouldn't we really. Season 22?
2:55:40
Yeah. Should we lead tonight's podcast
2:55:42
by singing that out? No.
2:55:45
No, no, no, no, no. So all it announces for us to
2:55:52
thank our guests for helping us to come to this conclusion
2:55:55
tonight. Would you like to tell us where
2:55:58
people can find you on social media?
2:55:59
Or would you like to promote anything Joe Short?
2:56:03
Nothing to promote, but I'm on whatever Twitter is now called
2:56:06
X. You know, the artist would be
2:56:08
known as X or whatever is. Now I'm on there as the Brain of
2:56:11
Spock. What you think it's like?
2:56:17
I was pretty much into Star Trek at the time when I set my
2:56:20
Twitter account up, so. No shame in that.
2:56:26
No shame. You can catch me on Twitter
2:56:30
slash X slash whatever it's called, if it's still alive and
2:56:33
and around when this goes out at Steve Starr, All one word and
2:56:38
without the G You can also catch me on the new to Who podcast,
2:56:41
which it's been a few years since we've released an episode,
2:56:43
but there's a back catalogue there of around about 30
2:56:46
episodes. And more recently in the last
2:56:49
year or so I've started a blog reimaginingdoctorwho.com.
2:56:55
So if you'd like to have a look at that, it's basically how
2:56:59
would I effectively script edit what?
2:57:04
Classic. Doctor Who is for a Netflix
2:57:07
slash Amazon slash Disney plus era Fabulous.
2:57:11
Sounds spelling it is. Utterly compelling.
2:57:13
When Stephen took the voyage all the way across the world to
2:57:17
Eastbourne, we had a day out in Brighton where he started
2:57:21
detailing. I think we did the First,
2:57:23
Second, third and 4th doctors. I'm sorry I did this to you.
2:57:27
How he was No, it was one of the best days of the year and I
2:57:31
honestly blew my mind. And if you think those eras are
2:57:33
great, well, I'll tell you what they can get even better.
2:57:36
Go find that blog. It is brilliant.
2:57:40
Thank you. You too.
2:57:41
Fabulous. So thank you all for your time
2:57:43
tonight. It's been a long podcast, but we
2:57:45
got there in the end. Next podcast in two weeks time
2:57:50
we are back to the new action calling, new series and
2:57:53
emotionally totally new. We're back to 2006 with Series 2
2:57:57
with David Tennant. So all that it remains is for us
2:58:01
to thank you very much for listening and you read Jeff.
2:58:08
Listening. Listening.
2:58:09
Sorry, I forgot. Good night everyone.
2:58:14
Bye bye. See you.
2:58:25
The. The.