Latest / Abbey the Podcast Lady / Your First Episodes Are Supposed to Be Bad, Here's Why That's Okay with Richard Wilmore

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Your First Episodes Are Supposed to Be Bad, Here's Why That's Okay with Richard Wilmore · Abbey the Podcast Lady

0:05
Hello and welcome to another episode of Abby
0:07
the Podcast Lady. It has been a minute since
0:10
I've had a guest on, but I kind of took a little
0:12
bit of a summer off of using the Podmatch service,
0:15
which I am so incredibly fond of. But the nice
0:17
thing about it is even with taking my summer
0:20
off, it was still working in the background and
0:22
still finding me some really cool matches. So
0:25
we have my friend Rich joining us today. Hello,
0:27
Rich. Good morning, afternoon, evening, whatever
0:30
it is. Yes. So we got connected through Podmatch.
0:33
You had a wonderful pitch for me. And I am super
0:36
excited to hear about how you operate your business
0:39
and what your role is in the podcasting industry.
0:42
Because as I was saying before we got started
0:44
recording here, everyone's is so different and
0:46
every journey is so different. So how did you
0:49
find yourself? behind a microphone? Well, I was
0:53
a kid who didn't want to be noticed. And so we've
0:57
been working a lot the last couple of years with
0:58
my therapist on trying to be okay with that part
1:02
of it. But at 12 years old, I was on summer break,
1:06
flipping through the channels, saw the Rosie
1:07
O'Donnell show. If this is how either sick my
1:10
mind is, it was a rerun from when she was in
1:12
LA. She took her show from New York to LA and
1:15
everything about it from the moment I saw it,
1:17
I was like, oh my God, this place is magical.
1:19
And it didn't matter if you were a celebrity
1:22
on the stage, if you were a crew member, an audience
1:24
member or someone at home, like everybody mattered
1:27
in that production of her show. And I thought,
1:30
I want to do that. I needed a place where I felt
1:33
like I belonged. And that was it. And I was like,
1:36
I want to do that for other people. And so one
1:38
way or another, I just started doing it. I would
1:40
sit in my bedroom while my brothers were outside
1:42
playing baseball or whatever they were doing.
1:44
I had a desk and I would literally just sit here
1:46
and mouth things because I didn't want my family.
1:48
to like hear what I was doing. And so I would
1:50
talk to celebrities in my room, no cameras, no
1:52
anything. It was just me. And that's still kind
1:55
of what I do. But 30 years later, and that's
1:57
how it started. That is amazing. I love that.
2:00
Like the fear of being caught by your family
2:03
doing something like this, because I wanted to
2:05
be a radio DJ growing up. And I kind of had the
2:07
same thing where I was scared of being too perceived,
2:09
but I would listen to the radio for hours on
2:12
end. And then I would just like sit there and
2:14
like pretend like if I was the DJ, here's how
2:16
I would introduce this song. like this is what
2:18
I would do with my show. Like I feel that so
2:21
deep in my bones. So I'm glad that there's a
2:23
kindred spirit out there with me. I used to go
2:25
to Spencer's Gifts in Duluth, Minnesota. And
2:27
that's where you could buy like the fun lights
2:30
that you would use at parties and the little
2:32
lamps with bubbles. And I literally just had
2:34
a TV studio kind of. And I would have musical
2:37
guests on and I would play the CD. And then I
2:39
would have all the lights going. It was a whole
2:41
production. You had the full production. Oh,
2:44
I love that. Another invisible string for us.
2:46
I worked at the Spencer's at the Mall of America.
2:48
So I know all about all those lights. Yes. Do
2:51
you remember when I first fell in love? This
2:54
is good. to be like a Minnesota cheese fest.
2:55
But when I was a kid, there was a meteorologist
2:57
in Duluth that I fell in love with. Her name
3:00
was Rhonda Grusendorf. And I thought she was
3:03
just so pretty. And I love the way she spoke.
3:06
And I wrote her a fan letter to the TV station.
3:09
And she wrote me back like this two page letter.
3:11
It was so sweet. I never got to meet her. I wanted
3:14
to reach out to her when I was doing my show.
3:16
But she's like out of the business. So I didn't
3:18
reach out to her because I didn't want to bother
3:20
her. But if you're listening, Rhonda, I love
3:21
you. Rhonda, come find her. Come on. You know,
3:25
I actually have a friend who used to be a news
3:27
reporter at the Duluth station. So I wonder if
3:29
we can, let me send some texts after this. We'll
3:31
see if we can get Rhonda on the horn. My dreams
3:33
come true. It's all about who you know, right?
3:37
Exactly. That's amazing. Okay, so you're a kid.
3:40
You got all the lights. You built a full TV production
3:42
in your bedroom. How does that then translate
3:44
to podcasting as an adult? What was kind of that
3:48
journey in between there? I went to school for
3:50
theater. I went to UW -Milwaukee for theater
3:52
and thought, well, I'll just become an actor.
3:54
I'll be famous and then I'll get a talk show
3:56
because that's what Rosie did. So that's what
3:57
I'll do. Yeah, that doesn't work like that, it
3:59
turns out. But I always wanted to do it. I did
4:01
it on Milwaukee Public Television. I did a couple
4:04
episodes of a show. I just have sort of always
4:06
done it one way, whether it was being filmed
4:09
or not, or out there or not. But I've always
4:12
looked at it as a TV talk show, like not really
4:14
a podcast. And so in 2015, 2016, there was like
4:19
some random app that I came across. And it was
4:23
sort of podcasting before video podcasting was
4:25
a thing. And I thought, well, I'm going to do
4:27
that. And so I converted a basement in my house
4:30
in Maryland into a studio. And I had a section
4:33
for audience members. Fans would come over and
4:35
I started filming, but I didn't know how to do
4:38
anything. I just knew that I wanted to talk to
4:40
people. Like I didn't have microphones. I didn't
4:42
have lights. I had cameras with like the little
4:45
microphones on top, but I didn't know, but I
4:47
knew I wanted to do it. And so I just started
4:49
filming and talking to people. And then I was
4:51
like, oh, I have to get it from here. Like on
4:54
to suddenly I was my grandma. Like, how do I
4:57
get it onto that thing? Like, how do I do this?
5:00
And so I just taught myself. Like I Googled like
5:02
free editing software. And started doing it myself.
5:05
And then as my friends who had businesses like
5:08
saw what I was doing and having fun. They were
5:10
like can you help me do that? Like maybe I want
5:13
to start doing video. And so I was just throwing
5:15
stuff up on YouTube. That's what I was doing
5:17
in 2016. And then I got to do a game show for
5:22
a non -profit in San Antonio. That was really
5:25
fun. That was on TV. It's just been a weird kind
5:28
of like it was always like the side thing. Like
5:30
I'm still hidden. Like don't really tell anybody
5:32
that you do. that and go get a real job and even
5:34
though all my real jobs were also creative and
5:37
ridiculous and like not real jobs at all and
5:39
a couple years ago I left a job that I thought
5:42
I would have for the rest of my life and in my
5:44
head I didn't have a backup plan and I didn't
5:46
know what I was doing and I quit and I was like
5:48
oh I guess I'm a podcast producer now and then
5:50
I was like well that's what you should have been
5:52
doing the entire time like why were you trying
5:55
to do anything else but that so for the last
5:57
couple years that's what I've been doing full
5:58
-time that's amazing and there's so many again
6:02
invisible string theory here. Like I literally
6:04
left a job I thought I would have the rest of
6:06
my life and was like, I guess I'm a podcast producer
6:08
now. So like the fact that there's another one
6:12
of us out there, I feel so much less alone. This
6:14
is amazing. Free therapy right here on your show.
6:18
Yes. Have you ever watched Only Murders in the
6:20
Building? Yes. Okay. So like, I think it was
6:22
like season two or season three when Selena Gomez
6:24
was having the identity crisis. And she has that
6:26
great little quip where she's like, I'm a podcast
6:29
producer. podcast producer and I'm like that's
6:33
me I know. I know. Because it feels like it's
6:36
too good to be true. Yeah. Like, I don't know.
6:38
I still struggle with it all the time of like,
6:41
this is what I get to do because it's what I
6:43
always wanted to do. It's like nobody gets to
6:44
do that. They're gonna make me cry at the end
6:47
of the show too. It's okay. This is a safe space.
6:49
Okay, good. But yeah, it just feels like every
6:51
day I get to learn from everybody I get to work
6:53
with. And it's amazing. I could not agree with
6:56
you more. So let's get into what your role is
6:59
as a podcast producer. Because what I have found
7:01
is there's a lot of us, but there's no not a
7:03
lot of us out there. And every time I come across
7:05
another one of us, we're all kind of doing it
7:08
a little differently. So how are you working
7:10
with your clients, serving them? What is kind
7:12
of your role in their shows? I like to be the
7:15
person and work with people. Actually, I love
7:17
to work with people who want to be in front of
7:20
the camera, want to have a podcast, but do not
7:23
know how and do not care how anything else happens.
7:27
Because I wish I had me back when I started mine.
7:30
And that's what I love is like, you know, you
7:32
have a talent or you have something to say, you
7:34
have information to give. And so I do everything.
7:36
I have a studio. I now have a real studio and
7:38
all the walls here have different backdrops.
7:40
And I build little sets for everybody that I
7:42
work with and they come in and I film it. I edit
7:46
it. I put it out on all the platforms. I do all
7:49
of that for them. So they get to just show up,
7:51
do what they're good at, and then leave me alone
7:53
so I can go do what I'm good at. And so I have
7:55
that part of it. And I realized over the years
7:58
that I've been doing this, that people have a
8:00
lot to say and should be bragging about the stuff
8:03
that they're doing, no matter what it is, they're
8:05
putting great stuff out into the world. And they
8:07
didn't think that podcasts were like a way to
8:09
do that, because it felt like it was too far
8:12
away, you know, like that was unobtainable. And
8:14
so I started helping people find podcasts to
8:16
go on, like they had great experiences with me.
8:19
And I wanted to be like it, but it doesn't have
8:20
to stop here. Like you can still have more fun
8:22
and make more content and get your word out by
8:24
going on all these others. So I kind of bridge
8:26
the two together now. That's amazing. I love
8:29
that you're doing that for your lines because
8:31
that's the exactly my approach to it's hey you
8:34
have something to say you have a story worth
8:36
sharing you have ideas worth spreading but you
8:38
don't need to handle any of the back end work
8:40
because I'll do it and I really like doing it
8:42
so just let me do it yes and we'll talk to some
8:45
people who think they want a podcast and like
8:48
are you sure you don't just want to like maybe
8:50
go on podcasts as opposed to all that goes into
8:53
creating and producing a show like that's a light
8:57
bulb moment for a lot of people too like there's
8:59
so much which you probably talk about all the
9:01
time. Like there's so much you get out of one
9:03
30 minute interview that you really couldn't
9:05
do by yourself. Exactly. Yes. That 30 minute
9:08
interview is so much more than just an interview.
9:10
And I feel like I am a broken record saying that
9:13
over and over and over, but it's so true. And
9:15
I feel so passionately about it. Yes. I just
9:18
want to shake everybody that I meet. Like I get
9:21
people from that have been on my show a year
9:23
ago that still are sharing clips. Like it's still
9:25
relevant stuff and it still is new information.
9:29
Like this interview with us is just the beginning
9:32
of promoting this episode. There's everything
9:35
that comes after that it can be used for. Yes.
9:37
And it can be literally everything. Everything
9:40
can start with just this and just sprawl out
9:42
into everything else. And I try to explain that
9:44
to not only my clients, but just everyone I come
9:47
in contact with. And I think people are like
9:49
avoiding eye contact with me when they see me
9:51
in person at this point. It's like, ah, that's
9:53
a crazy podcast lady. Yeah. So like before we
9:55
started filming, I took a picture of myself.
9:57
And then after this, I'll post a picture that's
10:00
like with your logo on it to say that I was on
10:02
it and like look forward to that coming out,
10:04
whatever, with the description tagging you. Like
10:07
it's a whole little ecosystem that you have to
10:10
build when you're doing these things because
10:11
it helps you and it helps the podcast person.
10:14
And hosts are doing so much work. This is a different
10:18
topic we could go down, Abby. Well, maybe we'll
10:19
do this on a different one. You can cut this
10:21
out if you want. Oh no, we'll keep it all in.
10:22
The little like fight argument about whether
10:26
or not podcasts should. be charging their guests
10:29
to come on. I don't know what your thoughts are
10:31
on that. I have very big thoughts on that. But
10:33
hosts work really hard to put out, oh, many hosts,
10:36
not all, but many hosts work really hard to put
10:39
out great content for you as part of your marketing
10:42
plan. And if it's done well, it works. Exactly.
10:45
That's the thing. Like if it is done correctly,
10:48
it is so effective. I have seen like podcasts
10:51
that are done well, get turned into USA Today
10:54
bestselling book deals and cross country. speaking
10:57
engagements and hundreds of thousands of clicks
11:00
a month on websites, but you got to do it right
11:03
in order to have those results. Yeah. And be
11:06
consistent and we should have our own podcast
11:09
of us just yelling at people. Like you also have
11:12
to have your personality in there and you have
11:13
to like do what feels good for you, but it's
11:16
not as simple as people think when they're first
11:19
starting out, but it's also not as complicated.
11:22
It's scary at first because it's just like anything.
11:25
I was just having this conversation. conversation
11:26
with a new client i'm onboarding she just recorded
11:29
the first couple episodes i have a studio as
11:31
well and she came in studio and worked on it
11:33
and then she's like okay i'm ready to tackle
11:34
this on my own i'm like okay call me if you have
11:36
issues that's why i'm here i'm in your back pocket
11:39
but she called me she's like i recorded the first
11:41
two and i just think that they're so bad and
11:43
i put so much work into them and i think they're
11:44
horrible and no one's gonna listen and i'm like
11:46
here's the thing you don't go to the gym for
11:48
the first time and pick up a 50 pound weight
11:50
you start with the fives yeah you got to start
11:53
small and get those reps in and Honestly, I'd
11:56
be upset if you didn't hate your first couple
11:57
episodes because that means you're not growing
11:59
and changing. I do test episodes all the time
12:01
with everybody that I'm starting with. Like we're
12:03
going to record them in case they're good. But
12:05
this is just like figuring out what works for
12:07
you, what doesn't, your timing. I mean, to look
12:10
at any author, any book you read, that is not
12:12
the first thing that was written. And they were
12:15
like, done. Gosh, can you imagine? Yeah. I would
12:18
love to see some of those though. I feel like
12:20
that was Britney Spears' memoir, different topic.
12:24
Abby, can you imagine what that started out as?
12:26
No, because the final version was so hard to
12:28
read. I did the audio version because I couldn't
12:31
read it. I did the audio version while I was
12:32
walking my dog. And that was like, I needed to
12:35
take breaks. Oh, I'm so glad that someone agrees
12:39
with me on that. That makes me feel good. But
12:41
it's so true. Like the first version of anything
12:43
usually doesn't see the light of day. And you
12:45
just got to get through that first version in
12:47
order to get to the second version, to get to
12:49
the third, fourth, fifth. Like you got to start
12:51
really crappy. Like if someone made me listen
12:53
to my first radio shows, nope, I'm running the
12:56
opposite direction as fast as I can. That is
12:58
not happening. Yeah, you're like, how did I not
13:00
get fired after episode one? Truly, what were
13:02
they thinking putting me on the payroll? When
13:05
I first started, I would watch every episode.
13:07
which for a person like me is probably not smart,
13:09
but I would like, what is one thing that I can
13:12
change for the next time I do it? And it doesn't
13:14
have to be major. It doesn't have to be a huge
13:16
overhaul, but like, what is one thing that I'm
13:18
noticing? Like, oh, that light is weird. Or maybe
13:20
the camera should be over zoomed in zoom, like
13:22
little things that maybe someone might not really
13:25
notice, but it is just that slow, steady, at
13:28
least you're improving. That's what I always
13:30
think. Yes. I got it right here. And this isn't
13:33
like, oh my God, promote what I do. It's literally.
13:36
just came in the mail yesterday. I created a
13:38
podcast journal for my clients because I wanted
13:41
them to do that improving. So it has like enough
13:43
pages in it to plan a year's worth of content,
13:45
but there's an entire page and it's like the
13:47
good side of the book to write on of like what
13:49
went well, what needs to be improved? What are
13:52
we doing different next time? I'm like, this
13:54
is every client is getting this book and we are
13:56
going to fill it out. Yeah. Where can people
13:58
get that? Cause I want it. It's published on
14:00
Amazon. I'll get you a link. Yeah. It just went
14:02
live and I just got the first copies. So congratulations.
14:05
Thank you. Thank you. I couldn't find anything
14:08
I wanted, so I made it myself. That's what happens.
14:11
Truly. Since we have very similar brains, similar
14:13
businesses, I would love to hear your take on
14:16
this. I had a client meeting a couple of weeks
14:18
ago and they are interested in starting a podcast,
14:21
but their argument is, well, everyone else already
14:25
has a podcast. Everyone and their mom has a podcast.
14:27
What's your response to that? Well, you don't
14:29
have one. Like, yes. I think what I love about
14:32
podcasting now is there's a low barrier to entry.
14:35
And I love that because people can be creative
14:37
and people can get their voices heard. problem
14:39
is it's a low barrier of entry and so everybody
14:42
grabs onto them most don't last that long there's
14:45
a ton of burnout and your perspective isn't out
14:48
there and there might be something similar but
14:50
it's not your voice it's like listening to a
14:52
tape recorder of exactly what i said to them
14:54
yeah like same thing why do musicians remake
14:57
other people's songs or do covers of them Exactly.
15:00
I just thought of that just now. So I'm going
15:02
to write that down and use that. But yeah, make
15:04
a note of that one. And figure out then if you
15:06
think every year is going to be the same, then
15:08
figure out why you think you do want one or what
15:11
you can maybe do that is a little bit different
15:13
than everybody else. Yes, I completely agree
15:16
with all that. It seems like everyone has a podcast.
15:19
That's not true. If everyone had a podcast, me
15:21
and you would never have a free second in our
15:22
lives because we'd be editing until the wee hours
15:25
of the morning. Well, it is 4am that we're filming
15:28
this, everybody. Yeah, this daylight is the sun
15:31
coming up. Oh, right. Movie magic. But it's like
15:35
you have a unique story to share. And even if
15:37
someone like look at all the murder podcasts
15:39
that are out in the world, there's a lot of them
15:41
covering the same stories, too. But everyone
15:43
has a different perspective on it. Yep, exactly.
15:46
I don't like that argument because also otherwise,
15:49
why are you even thinking about it? There's a
15:50
reason you're thinking about doing it. Yes, for
15:52
sure. So I would love to know what your favorite
15:55
parts of working with clients are, because I
15:58
know what mine are and it seems like our businesses
16:00
are very similar. So I'd love to know, like when
16:02
someone comes to you and they're. getting the
16:04
podcast process started, like what are the parts
16:06
you're most anticipating? I love set design is
16:09
what I'm falling in love with. Like I build little
16:12
sections of the room. And I think my favorite
16:15
story when you started bringing up that question,
16:17
what popped in my head was I started a podcast
16:19
for an HR consultant. And she was like, I think
16:21
I just want it to be audio only. Like I want
16:24
to just be relaxed. Like it's just a conversation.
16:27
I don't think I want to like get that deep into
16:29
it. And so I was like, all right, yeah, audio
16:31
podcast. Great. And then And she started getting
16:34
like excited about after a few episodes. And
16:36
she was like, maybe we should do video just so
16:39
I have content, like just so we can record it
16:41
so I can throw it out there. And I was like,
16:43
yeah, great. And we were doing it remotely as
16:45
well. And then after a while, she was like, this
16:47
is really fun. I don't know why everybody doesn't
16:49
have a podcast. And I was like, well, what do
16:52
you think about maybe filming it at the studio?
16:56
And she was like, yeah, we can try it. And she
16:59
walked in on the first day, like I designed a
17:00
thing, a set that she didn't really know what
17:02
it looked like. And I walked in and she was like,
17:04
oh my God, I feel like I'm Ricky Lake walking
17:05
onto my set for the first time. And she like
17:07
the joy in people's faces when it's going well
17:11
and when they're having fun and it doesn't feel
17:13
like work, even though it is, it's part of the
17:16
whole plan. That's what I love about it. Like
17:18
just the excitement of being around people in
17:21
person and everybody's just like looking forward
17:24
to what's coming next. Yeah. That in -person
17:26
recording, there's truly nothing like it. I have
17:29
clients kind of scattered across the country,
17:31
but I work with a lot of them locally in the
17:33
St. Cloud area in Minnesota. And the ones that
17:35
I get to like connect with on even a monthly
17:37
basis to come in and batch content in the studio,
17:40
like getting to spend that time in person, it's
17:43
technically work for all of us, but it never
17:46
feels like work. Like we're just hanging out
17:48
and having a good time, sharing some laughs,
17:50
sharing some stories. Like it's genuinely so
17:53
fun. Yes. I was just talking about this to someone
17:56
else too. Because we work in such small groups,
17:59
right? Like it's just me and one other person
18:02
or maybe their guest to really be careful with
18:05
who you work with and making sure you all gel
18:08
and make sure you get along because you are working
18:10
in close proximity or close quarters to someone.
18:13
And if you're not getting along, it's... going
18:17
to show up somehow in that process. And that
18:20
took me a while to learn too. I don't know about
18:21
you, but like when I first started, I was like,
18:23
I'll work with you and I'll work with you because
18:25
you have $5. And then it was like, my energy
18:27
was just drained because you're creating art
18:30
is really what you're doing. And so there's a
18:31
lot of output and you have to be able to maintain
18:34
that. Yeah. I learned that lesson when I was
18:36
a radio DJ, when I was a morning show host back
18:39
in COVID, our entire radio station cluster kind
18:42
of got, they hit the shuffle button and they
18:44
just shoved us wherever we needed to be with
18:46
the law. loss of staff. And there was a bunch
18:48
of us that got paired up randomly to like make
18:50
a morning show. And it just like, we tried to
18:52
make it work and it just like didn't work because
18:54
there was nothing organic about it when it's
18:57
forced like that. It's just hard. And if it doesn't
19:00
work, it doesn't work. And you do need to know
19:01
when to take that step back and say, Hey, it's
19:04
not working. And that's probably going to lead
19:05
to a hard conversation, but I can guarantee you're
19:09
going to feel a hell of a lot better after that
19:10
conversation is had. Yeah. Well, I'm bringing
19:12
that back to like what works for a person. person's
19:15
podcast, like that's also like, what does success
19:18
look like in your podcast? You know, like so
19:20
many people start, like I did the same thing
19:22
where I'm refreshing views on YouTube. Do I have
19:25
five views yet? Like how come millions of people
19:27
aren't watching today when it went out and really
19:30
figuring out like what you consider success for
19:32
your podcast. And then when you reach that, making
19:35
sure that you're celebrating that because that's
19:38
important. Yes. You can go like, okay, yes. Stop
19:41
and recognize it. Yell about it. Shout about
19:44
it. Tell everybody you know, because it's easy
19:46
to go, well, I got to do the next thing. I got
19:47
to go to the next, or how can I get 50 ,000 more
19:50
views? You know, like you can constantly be running
19:54
around in circles and constantly be elevating
19:58
the bar for yourself in this world. As a firstborn
20:01
Leo oldest daughter, the goalpost is never reached.
20:05
It's just moved further down the field. It's
20:08
a sports reference. I don't really understand
20:10
that. Yeah, exactly. It's so important because
20:13
sometimes it feels like you're just sitting here
20:15
by yourself. And oftentimes we are when we're
20:17
creating this stuff. And then it's like, who
20:19
is happening? Like, am I really doing this by
20:22
myself? You know, so yeah. And you're never truly
20:25
alone. It might feel like you're alone, but you
20:27
do have that audience. Even if it's a small audience,
20:29
there's people cheering you on and they'll probably
20:31
never tell you that they're cheering you on,
20:34
but they are. They're the ones that are like
20:36
every week waiting for you. your show to drop
20:38
on that Tuesday morning. Like they're out there,
20:40
but you probably are never going to hear from
20:42
them. And that's unfortunate, but yeah, the people
20:45
who need it will find it is what I always tell
20:47
people and myself. Amen to that. Well, this has
20:51
been such a wonderful conversation. I am so happy
20:55
to find a kindred spirit, a kindred Midwesterner,
20:58
even though you're not a Midwesterner anymore.
20:59
I'm still a Midwesterner. Come on. I lived there
21:02
for like 30 years. I have to be. I'll wear that
21:04
proudly. Can't take that cheese out of that Wisconsinite.
21:07
No. This has been so fun. Okay. So if people
21:09
want to work with you further, how can you help
21:11
them? How can they reach out to you? What do
21:13
you offer to help them on their podcasting journey?
21:16
Yeah. I have a studio. If you're in the like
21:18
sharp. Charlotte, North Carolina area and South
21:20
Carolina. I have a studio. You can come here
21:21
and hang out and film stuff. I book people on
21:23
shows. I host a couple of shows. So maybe you
21:26
want to be a guest on one of mine, but makeyourdayricher
21:28
.com. You can message me there. Wonderful. Thank
21:31
you so much for being on my show and taking the
21:33
time to do this. I appreciate it. And we'll just
21:35
have to stay in touch about literally everything
21:37
podcasting. Seriously. This is fun. Thanks.