Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / If You Don't Want Your Guy To Cheat, Make Sure He Has This Job

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If You Don't Want Your Guy To Cheat, Make Sure He Has This Job · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

0:11
Speaker 1: Welcome to I Do Part two the podcast for people
0:14
Speaker 1: that maybe didn't find there happily ever after the first
0:16
Speaker 1: time around. I'm one of your hosts, Jana Kramer, and
0:19
Speaker 1: today I'm joined by one of our favorite celebrity mentors
0:21
Speaker 1: here on the podcast, former pro dancer for twenty six
0:25
Speaker 1: seasons on Dancing with the Stars. It's my girl, Cheryl Burke.
0:28
Speaker 1: Hey girl, Hey, Today we're going to dive into the
0:31
Speaker 1: topic of divorce, something we know nothing about. Some celebs
0:34
Speaker 1: in the headlines new trends and divorce. We're going to
0:36
Speaker 1: bring in Kate Simmons, a divorce attorney with Simmons Law Group.
0:40
Speaker 1: She's got a video right now that is popping up
0:42
Speaker 1: all over the internet, so let's get her in here
0:45
Speaker 1: and do a deep dive on this. Kate, thank you
0:47
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show. I kind of
0:49
Speaker 1: want to start this off and we'll just deep dive
0:51
Speaker 1: right into it. So when I saw your video, so
0:55
Speaker 1: you've got this video going viral right now on TikTok
0:59
Speaker 1: and some other you know streamers, and you basically said, like,
1:04
Speaker 1: here are the three people that are most likely not
1:06
Speaker 1: going to cheat, right you said, farmers, accountants and pharmacists.
1:12
Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
1:14
Speaker 2: That's right, That's what's on the video.
1:16
Speaker 1: So when I watch it, and maybe this is just
1:18
Speaker 1: like my jaded heart from my past relationship, but I'm like,
1:24
Speaker 1: a how did you come up with that? But also
1:27
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm like, a dude's gonna cheat no
1:31
Speaker 1: matter what they do, right, So it's like and a
1:33
Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, my last husband was a
1:37
Speaker 1: professional athlete, all right, he's in the terrible category of
1:39
Speaker 1: most likely going to cheat. Not saying they all do,
1:42
Speaker 1: because now my husband was a professional athlete as well,
1:45
Speaker 1: has never cheated, wouldn't dare to freaking cheat? Is the
1:48
Speaker 1: most respectful man, never cheated on his X, wouldn't cheat
1:52
Speaker 1: on me, whether I mean anything. It's like, so it's
1:54
Speaker 1: like to label someone a cheater or not a cheater
1:57
Speaker 1: to me is kind of like, how can you even
2:00
Speaker 1: do that?
2:00
Speaker 2: In a way, you're so right and you can't really
2:04
Speaker 2: do that. I mean, I've done videos that have gone
2:08
Speaker 2: viral and let's just get it out of the way.
2:10
Speaker 2: The most likely to cheat men, of course, men are
2:13
Speaker 2: going to cheat your spot on. I see it every day. Cops, firefighters,
2:18
Speaker 2: I mean, divorce lawyers will joke behind the scenes, like
2:21
Speaker 2: if you married a cop, that was your first mistake.
2:24
Speaker 2: So we talk about people in law enforcement EMTs, firefighters
2:27
Speaker 2: most likely one hundred percent.
2:30
Speaker 3: Of the time, one hundred percent of the time.
2:35
Speaker 2: Not one hundred percent of the time. But if someone
2:39
Speaker 2: calls and they say, it's you know, the talk of
2:42
Speaker 2: the fire station, the talk of the cop shop, I
2:44
Speaker 2: mean that we expect. So when those videos got so popular,
2:49
Speaker 2: we got all this feedback about who's not cheating, women
2:53
Speaker 2: and men who are more or less likely to be
2:56
Speaker 2: in the console chair talking about cheating, and so we
3:00
Speaker 2: just came up with like ten occupations that we don't
3:03
Speaker 2: see that much. Accountants, librarians, we said, teachers long ago,
3:10
Speaker 2: and the internet started on fire, like here are all
3:13
Speaker 2: these teachers that are cheating. But it is really difficult
3:18
Speaker 2: outside of the occupations I mentioned. You know something really
3:23
Speaker 2: interesting about cheating that I think is coming to the
3:26
Speaker 2: forefront more. And when I talk to women, middle aged women,
3:32
Speaker 2: there's let's set aside the young guys that are acting inappropriately,
3:36
Speaker 2: but when we see families broken apart by true affairs
3:43
Speaker 2: and women come in in their late thirties and forties,
3:47
Speaker 2: I want to hear from both of you if you agree,
3:50
Speaker 2: if you think this is mainstream information. But I describe
3:54
Speaker 2: to these women when men are finding these other lies
4:00
Speaker 2: and they're going to another person, it's really easy for
4:04
Speaker 2: the wife to say, what did I do wrong? What
4:07
Speaker 2: did I do in this relationship to cause this? And
4:11
Speaker 2: I think it's becoming more understandable and people are accepting
4:16
Speaker 2: the feedback from me more readily that those people, those men,
4:21
Speaker 2: let's just stick with the gender bias. Those husbands are
4:25
Speaker 2: unhappy with themselves, that it's not something that these women
4:29
Speaker 2: are doing or it always takes two when a relationship
4:33
Speaker 2: breaks down. But I think it's becoming much more of
4:38
Speaker 2: a positive spin in a way for them to move
4:41
Speaker 2: forward in their lives for their new beginning, to recognize
4:45
Speaker 2: that those men are unhappy with themselves and they're looking
4:47
Speaker 2: for something, and they're looking for something that does not
4:51
Speaker 2: stem from the fault of the other spouse.
4:55
Speaker 1: Cheryl, when you got divorce, was your first thought, did
4:58
Speaker 1: you go into why I could because I was in
5:02
Speaker 1: this or that?
5:03
Speaker 3: I think yeah, And I think it actually stems from
5:06
Speaker 3: the way I was raised, right like, I don't think
5:08
Speaker 3: it just I think that's a natural we're all human,
5:11
Speaker 3: and I think the first thing we do is in
5:13
Speaker 3: a way shame ourselves, blame ourselves and definitely try to
5:18
Speaker 3: put the pieces together and get answers. But sometimes there's
5:21
Speaker 3: just no answers, right, And for the most part, I think,
5:25
Speaker 3: naturally my brain went to, Yeah, what did I do wrong?
5:29
Speaker 3: Did I not sleep with him enough? Did I you know,
5:31
Speaker 3: there's all these questions that I ask myself. Was I
5:34
Speaker 3: not there? Emotionally? Was I not? It's just but ultimately
5:39
Speaker 3: intellectually I know, of course it has nothing to do
5:42
Speaker 3: with me. It has everything to do with that person.
5:45
Speaker 3: But naturally, right, and if I wasn't in therapy for
5:48
Speaker 3: as long as I've been in therapy, it would have
5:51
Speaker 3: really taken a toll on my own self esteem, my confidence,
5:54
Speaker 3: just me as a woman in general. You know.
5:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think Kate's your thing too, I mean
6:00
Speaker 1: to kind of what you're saying, Cheryl. I remember, it's
6:02
Speaker 1: my first thought was when I found out that what
6:05
Speaker 1: he was cheating was you know, why am I not
6:08
Speaker 1: enough for you? To like? Is what's wrong with me?
6:13
Speaker 1: That he went to go be with someone else? Like was?
6:16
Speaker 1: You know? But my thing was I went back to
6:18
Speaker 1: old conversations that we had, like I'll never forget. We
6:21
Speaker 1: were sitting at this restaurant and I was asking him, like,
6:24
Speaker 1: you know, why he wouldn't be physical with me or
6:26
Speaker 1: sleep with me, and he's like, well, look at you.
6:28
Speaker 1: You look at you wear to bed, and I'm like,
6:30
Speaker 1: I wear a big like a big T shirt, you know,
6:33
Speaker 1: and he's like, you think that's sexy. Really you think
6:35
Speaker 1: that's sexy, And I'm like, I've just never been a
6:37
Speaker 1: lingerie girl, right, So I never did pull on lauingderie.
6:40
Speaker 1: I always thought the big boyfriend T shirt was sexy
6:44
Speaker 1: and like, but like, uh. He immediately blamed his and
6:48
Speaker 1: I didn't know he was cheating at that point on
6:51
Speaker 1: the fact that I didn't dress sexy. So once I
6:53
Speaker 1: found out, I was like, oh, it's because I wasn't
6:56
Speaker 1: sexy enough for him, so he chose something else that
6:58
Speaker 1: was sexier, and so imediately it went to I wasn't
7:01
Speaker 1: good enough. I'm not pretty enough for him to or
7:04
Speaker 1: sexy enough, and I you know, I didn't give him
7:07
Speaker 1: what he needed, so that's why, and I need to
7:09
Speaker 1: now do this to please him so that he stays
7:11
Speaker 1: and like doesn't do it again.
7:12
Speaker 3: But he was just gas lighting you you know well,
7:14
Speaker 3: and I know.
7:15
Speaker 1: That now, but it took I mean years of therapy
7:17
Speaker 1: to go, oh, wait a minute, this has nothing to
7:19
Speaker 1: do with me. I was always good enough. I was
7:21
Speaker 1: always pretty enough, and I was it was always his
7:23
Speaker 1: low self esteem. But when I go back to all
7:26
Speaker 1: the comments, he was trying to bring my self esteem
7:28
Speaker 1: down to make himself feel better. But you don't know
7:30
Speaker 1: that when that happens, right, like when you're going through
7:32
Speaker 1: that divorce, You're like, why who wasn't I good enough?
7:34
Speaker 1: Why couldn't he stay for me? And like treat me
7:37
Speaker 1: this way? Now this other girl. It's like no, So
7:40
Speaker 1: I think you know when I you know, Kate, I
7:43
Speaker 1: guess you know. Another question is that is when I
7:46
Speaker 1: was talking to my now husband, I was telling him
7:49
Speaker 1: we were kind of talking about infidelity, and he's like,
7:52
Speaker 1: I said, you know, the main reason that I left
7:54
Speaker 1: him wasn't because he cheated. It was because of the
7:57
Speaker 1: lies and it was because of the deceit. And he's like,
7:59
Speaker 1: what not because he slept with other women? And I'm like, no,
8:03
Speaker 1: it was because he lied about it and he wasn't
8:05
Speaker 1: honest and he was It was it was the It
8:07
Speaker 1: wasn't the act. It was the lie, and it was
8:09
Speaker 1: the deceit, That's.
8:10
Speaker 3: Why, and not taking accountability and sticking to it like
8:12
Speaker 3: it's a whole thing. Yeah, Like it's never the act
8:15
Speaker 3: of it's never never.
8:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that hurts. Yeah, I can forgive and
8:20
Speaker 1: I tried, but it's always the deceit and the lie.
8:23
Speaker 1: And so okay, do you see that a lot with
8:25
Speaker 1: is you know, when people file for divorce, you know,
8:28
Speaker 1: is it infidelity or do you see it as the
8:31
Speaker 1: the the uh, you know, the lie.
8:34
Speaker 2: You're right on, it's the lie. It's not the infidelity.
8:37
Speaker 2: It's not I'm here the day after I found out
8:40
Speaker 2: about this affair. And you've also identified a huge difference
8:44
Speaker 2: in the maturity level of twenty year old women that
8:48
Speaker 2: I see thirty year old women that I see in forty.
8:51
Speaker 2: I mean, and this is partly personal experience, but as
8:54
Speaker 2: I talk to female clients, and frankly, I do have
8:57
Speaker 2: about a fifty to fifty split gender wise, But with
9:01
Speaker 2: my female clients, it's a different mindset. When they're coming in.
9:06
Speaker 2: You're so much more confident. Think of what a different
9:08
Speaker 2: person you are a twenty year old Janet a thirty
9:12
Speaker 2: year old Janet, third year old Cheryl to forty year
9:15
Speaker 2: old Cheryl. I mean it's like our milestones are huge,
9:19
Speaker 2: and so yes, absolutely it's he wouldn't do the work necessary,
9:25
Speaker 2: or maybe maybe she cheated and I just did a
9:29
Speaker 2: consult recently. I had an affair ten years ago. I
9:34
Speaker 2: was willing to move on. I was willing to go
9:36
Speaker 2: to therapy. I wanted to do the work, and he couldn't.
9:39
Speaker 2: He never got over it. He throws it in my
9:42
Speaker 2: face every day and it just drags the relationship to
9:46
Speaker 2: a screeching halt. And so that's absolutely right. Can you
9:50
Speaker 2: get a great therapist or counselor which can be difficult
9:53
Speaker 2: to do, and do the work needed if both people
9:57
Speaker 2: want to save the relationship. Law firm is very very
10:02
Speaker 2: resolution oriented, reconciliation oriented, and it doesn't happen a lot.
10:08
Speaker 2: But if people are like, we need a therapist, we
10:10
Speaker 2: want to work on this, we want to put this
10:12
Speaker 2: on hold, I give lots of space for that timeline
10:17
Speaker 2: and for that to happen. Does it happen a lot?
10:19
Speaker 3: Now It's like my sobriety, like without first of all
10:22
Speaker 3: taking accountability and realizing what you did was wrong or
10:27
Speaker 3: in my case, when it comes to my sobriety is
10:29
Speaker 3: first admitting that I have a problem, right, And you
10:32
Speaker 3: can't continue to seesaw back and forth, like it can't
10:35
Speaker 3: be like, oh, yes I do, Oh no I don't.
10:37
Speaker 3: I'm just a social drinker. Like no, I had to
10:39
Speaker 3: have a come to Jesus moment and be like, I
10:41
Speaker 3: actually have a drinking problem and if I want to
10:44
Speaker 3: get better, I have to do the work and do
10:47
Speaker 3: the steps and get into a program and all of it.
10:49
Speaker 3: And that's the same thing with infidelity. It's it was
10:52
Speaker 3: the teeter tottering. It's like, okay, yes, no, maybe I
10:56
Speaker 3: didn't technically cheat on you, or remember when you did this.
11:00
Speaker 3: It's like that to me, just is a huge red flag.
11:03
Speaker 2: Cheryl. Let me give you a virtual high five, virtual hug.
11:06
Speaker 2: Alcohol is the poison of family court. I am so
11:10
Speaker 2: impressed with you. What a great lifestyle. So congratulations, Thank
11:14
Speaker 2: good for you girl, Thank you.
11:26
Speaker 1: What is the number one reason why people are getting
11:28
Speaker 1: divorced when they come into your office.
11:30
Speaker 2: Grown apart different places in life. If I had to
11:34
Speaker 2: pick one, and I get that question a lot, so
11:37
Speaker 2: I would not select infidelity. I think that's really a
11:41
Speaker 2: byproduct of other things that are happening. I have a
11:45
Speaker 2: theory about society with this push to twenty year old people. Everybody,
11:51
Speaker 2: whoever you've been with for a year, it's like, what's
11:54
Speaker 2: the next step in life? Do you want to have kids?
11:56
Speaker 2: What are you doing? I think people young people get
11:59
Speaker 2: married to quickly. If you really go through all of
12:03
Speaker 2: the seasons with someone deal with difficulty, how do you
12:07
Speaker 2: too communicate? I am so lucky. I'm married to a
12:11
Speaker 2: man who's emotionally mature. He can communicate, and I don't
12:15
Speaker 2: see that a heck of a lot. And it's people
12:19
Speaker 2: who are in different places and eventually take the kids
12:23
Speaker 2: out of it, because sometimes people stay married or I'll
12:27
Speaker 2: see you when my kids are fifteen and up because
12:29
Speaker 2: I know this isn't the right relationship for me. But
12:32
Speaker 2: looking back, people see the red flags. I've had more
12:38
Speaker 2: than ten consults in the last year that will say
12:41
Speaker 2: I knew I shouldn't have married this person when we
12:44
Speaker 2: were walking down the aisle. That is so heartbreaking.
12:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had one of those. I had one of
12:50
Speaker 1: those that went in the bathroom and cried about it
12:52
Speaker 1: because I was like, well, prap.
12:54
Speaker 3: This is the thing with being in the business. It's
12:56
Speaker 3: like it just felt like a dress rehearsal.
12:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And why couldn't you Why couldn't you pull
13:04
Speaker 2: out of that moment?
13:05
Speaker 3: Oh? There was no way in hell.
13:08
Speaker 1: We had the magazine you know, thing already they were paying,
13:12
Speaker 1: they paid.
13:13
Speaker 3: I had Bendy Weiss involved, Like this was not.
13:16
Speaker 1: People already had their tickets and how could I How
13:19
Speaker 1: could I ruin people's plans was what my thought was, Like.
13:23
Speaker 3: Their airline tickets or like the tickets to the show.
13:26
Speaker 1: Like the plans, How could I ruin that for them? Yeah,
13:30
Speaker 1: they've already spent their money on it.
13:32
Speaker 3: Yep, and nothing. Nothing in our thought process was like
13:34
Speaker 3: maybe this is wrong and I need to like run
13:37
Speaker 3: away bride it.
13:37
Speaker 1: You know. It's yeah, that's the part where it's you know,
13:41
Speaker 1: it's sad now to think because I believe and now
13:44
Speaker 1: I know in my you know, this age being forty,
13:47
Speaker 1: that if I would have texted my mom and said, hey,
13:50
Speaker 1: I want to actually call this off because I don't
13:52
Speaker 1: think it's right, she would be like, I one thousand percent,
13:55
Speaker 1: I will let everyone know and I will you know,
13:57
Speaker 1: she would have been there. It was just my own
13:59
Speaker 1: embarrassment and maybe you know my not I wasn't one
14:04
Speaker 1: hundred percent sure, so I thought maybe i'd change my mind.
14:08
Speaker 1: I thought maybe i'd get that feeling back when I
14:10
Speaker 1: walked down the aisle.
14:11
Speaker 3: What did you feel when you walked down the aisle?
14:13
Speaker 3: I just out of curiosity, just complete regret. Oh really
14:16
Speaker 3: you were present though with yourself?
14:18
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, because I told my best friend in the bathroom,
14:22
Speaker 1: I was like, I just made the biggest mistake, and
14:24
Speaker 1: now I don't want to My whole thing was I
14:25
Speaker 1: don't want to be divorced with kids because that's the
14:28
Speaker 1: house that I grew up in. So I was like,
14:29
Speaker 1: I got to divorce them right away because I will
14:32
Speaker 1: end up having babies and then we'll get divorced and
14:34
Speaker 1: I don't want that. So that was why I then
14:37
Speaker 1: did that, you know so, but it was it was wrong,
14:40
Speaker 1: and it was it was real to somebody else, and
14:42
Speaker 1: that wasn't fair, you know.
14:43
Speaker 3: So now would you have gone, would you have stopped everything?
14:46
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? And that's why I think to your point,
14:49
Speaker 1: Kate is marrying later in life, you know yourself more now,
14:54
Speaker 1: and it's I never want to tell like when I
14:56
Speaker 1: hear someone young getting married that's in their middle twenties
14:59
Speaker 1: or you know, like, I'm like, oh gosh, it like
15:03
Speaker 1: almost like breaks my heart and I always want to
15:05
Speaker 1: celebrate love, but I also know how much you grow
15:09
Speaker 1: during those years too.
15:11
Speaker 3: But then also, who am I to say, like what
15:13
Speaker 3: is young?
15:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, maybe they're you know, maybe they'll end
15:18
Speaker 1: up being together forever. So who am I to say?
15:20
Speaker 3: And what a learning lesson? Like what I've like, I've
15:22
Speaker 3: learned so much too.
15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it's like, why would I want to
15:26
Speaker 1: take that away from people too?
15:27
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, I do like the discussion of It's
15:32
Speaker 2: part of your story. It makes you part of who
15:34
Speaker 2: you are. But my every day is seeing the heartbreak
15:39
Speaker 2: of divorce and the heartbreak that it brings even the
15:42
Speaker 2: greater family, everybody in the family unit and so young people.
15:47
Speaker 2: I say, and I love weddings and I love love.
15:50
Speaker 2: And by the way, I love the name of this
15:52
Speaker 2: podcast we did. I have a friend who owns a
15:56
Speaker 2: magazine in our community, and we ran a short ad
15:59
Speaker 2: for our Divorce in the Day program that was when
16:03
Speaker 2: your I do needs a redo, do it in a day?
16:07
Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, As soon as I saw the
16:08
Speaker 2: title of this podcast, I thought, that's fantastic, it's great idea.
16:12
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of redos though, I mean, Bill Gates recently
16:15
Speaker 1: made headlines because he was saying, you know, his divorce
16:18
Speaker 1: was the mistake he most regretted. And you know, have
16:22
Speaker 1: you like you kind of spoke on it a little bit,
16:24
Speaker 1: but have you seen people then say never mind? Like, yeah,
16:28
Speaker 1: you said that they want to maybe do therapy, but
16:30
Speaker 1: do they end up coming back and getting divorced or
16:32
Speaker 1: have you had more people actually pull it off the table, they.
16:36
Speaker 2: Will come back and get divorced. And I saw that,
16:40
Speaker 2: And you know, Bill and Melinda had a long term marriage,
16:44
Speaker 2: and I thought the comment was interesting. I'm going to
16:48
Speaker 2: predict that he doesn't mean he wishes he was still
16:50
Speaker 2: married to her. I think they had their long standing
16:54
Speaker 2: issues and it's a very painful process. It's very difficult.
17:00
Speaker 2: We almost never have people actually reconcile and stay reconciled.
17:06
Speaker 2: I've had couples get divorced, remarried, divorced. I divorced the
17:11
Speaker 2: same couple three times throughout my career, and they're kind
17:15
Speaker 2: of just a love hate toxic strong feelings and no
17:21
Speaker 2: we did a Chris and I did a mediation recently
17:25
Speaker 2: where the couple really felt strongly about their relationship. They
17:31
Speaker 2: knew it was the right thing. They were very sweet people,
17:34
Speaker 2: and they asked us to hold their paperwork. They wanted
17:37
Speaker 2: to give it, you know, a little bit of time
17:40
Speaker 2: and cold within sixty days and said file it. And
17:43
Speaker 2: with the final decree and everything, we don't really see
17:47
Speaker 2: the reconciliation that successful long term.
17:53
Speaker 1: So when you saw j Loo and Ben then reckon.
17:55
Speaker 1: I know they weren't married. They were engaged though, So
17:58
Speaker 1: when you saw them get back to Gareth and get married,
18:00
Speaker 1: did you already go divorce?
18:02
Speaker 2: Absolutely? They're just like that. I mean, it really is
18:05
Speaker 2: just like that couple. And of course they have the
18:07
Speaker 2: heighten the money, the attention, everything that goes along with
18:11
Speaker 2: being in a lister and everybody's watching, which makes it
18:14
Speaker 2: more painful. I mean, you've seen some of Jlo's statements,
18:16
Speaker 2: and I think it's incredibly painful. I also think that
18:20
Speaker 2: very famous celebrities tend to have traits of loneliness because
18:27
Speaker 2: that is such an isolating life to live.
18:29
Speaker 3: I think I mean that's because they're not though finding
18:33
Speaker 3: the true love, which happens within you, right, like you
18:36
Speaker 3: complete you regardless, like there is no other person that
18:39
Speaker 3: would fill that void for you. So if you haven't
18:42
Speaker 3: done that work individually as two separate people, it's going
18:46
Speaker 3: to be really hard that you are leaving it up
18:48
Speaker 3: for so many expectations on one another that you're bound
18:52
Speaker 3: to not ever live up to it.
18:54
Speaker 2: That's right, and not as a negative to people like
18:58
Speaker 2: Ben and Jlo who have those goes. I don't mean
19:01
Speaker 2: that in a negative way. It's just part of their personality.
19:04
Speaker 2: But how exhausting to support someone as fabulous and famous
19:09
Speaker 2: as you are all the time and have that constant
19:13
Speaker 2: balance in your life. How do they find a balance?
19:15
Speaker 2: I think? But yeah, I figure they'll be they'll be
19:19
Speaker 2: splitting up again.
19:30
Speaker 1: Do you think it's easier or more complicated to get
19:32
Speaker 1: divorce late in life?
19:34
Speaker 3: Easier the silver divorce? Oh yeah?
19:36
Speaker 1: So Chery, what is that? Because I you know, I
19:38
Speaker 1: saw you were talking about silver divorce, so I have
19:40
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. Tell me what I mean?
19:42
Speaker 3: I just found out today, But silver divorce is like
19:45
Speaker 3: when you divorce later in life, right when you're like
19:48
Speaker 3: in your fifty fifty sixties. I think and you realize that, Wow,
19:53
Speaker 3: this is not the person I want to live my
19:55
Speaker 3: rest of my life with. But I also think it's generational, right, So,
19:59
Speaker 3: like I just think about my parents right now. I
20:01
Speaker 3: come from a divorce family, but my mom remarried my
20:03
Speaker 3: stepfather and if they were too divorced. Today, there's so
20:07
Speaker 3: much it's generational in the sense of first of all,
20:10
Speaker 3: when my mom, you know, was being raised by her parents,
20:13
Speaker 3: there was no such thing like there. She's Filipino, she's
20:16
Speaker 3: very Catholic, and there's a lot of shame that comes
20:19
Speaker 3: with it. But I think with how open we are
20:21
Speaker 3: now with mental health, I think it's leaving that door
20:25
Speaker 3: maybe a little bit open for that generation nowadays to
20:29
Speaker 3: be like, you know what, I'm going to choose me.
20:31
Speaker 2: That's right. And my message to women is choose you
20:35
Speaker 2: when you're forty or when the kids are out of
20:39
Speaker 2: the house. I have a lot of experience with gray
20:43
Speaker 2: or silver divorce, whichever you call it. We're my law
20:46
Speaker 2: firms in Phoenix. We're very close to a lot of
20:49
Speaker 2: retirement communities, as you can imagine, and I have had
20:54
Speaker 2: a lot of the both men and women in their seventies, eighties,
20:59
Speaker 2: late eighties. Can you imagine going through this awful process.
21:03
Speaker 2: The silver lining is that they're pretty calm about the
21:08
Speaker 2: whole situation. And here's the sad part. This is my
21:12
Speaker 2: message to middle aged women, because they knew say it's
21:17
Speaker 2: a silver divorce, that they have been truly married fifty years,
21:21
Speaker 2: not a second marriage, and the kids are long gone.
21:25
Speaker 2: All of the properties community they all say they First
21:30
Speaker 2: of all, everybody tells me how many years they've been
21:32
Speaker 2: living in separate bedrooms, how long it's been since they've
21:35
Speaker 2: had sex with each other, And it's decades, I mean
21:38
Speaker 2: decades that they've been living as roommates. And it's such
21:41
Speaker 2: an awful process. No one wanted to start it, but
21:45
Speaker 2: it we all know where the three of us are
21:48
Speaker 2: about the same age. When you're fifty, you have a
21:51
Speaker 2: whole life ahead of you. I mean that's the heartbreaking
21:55
Speaker 2: part when I see the silver divorce because they've been
22:00
Speaker 2: you know, they've been roommates for decades. Frankly, I see
22:02
Speaker 2: it the opposite.
22:03
Speaker 3: Like I think it's a beautiful thing that they're like
22:06
Speaker 3: finally seeing themselves, like as their own person, and like
22:11
Speaker 3: we do, we evolve, and sometimes it's with that person
22:14
Speaker 3: you've decided to partner with, and sometimes it's not, and
22:17
Speaker 3: that's okay. But I think it's beautiful that they're opening
22:20
Speaker 3: their eyes and trying to walk the rest of their
22:23
Speaker 3: life in a present hopefully loving themselves way, you know,
22:28
Speaker 3: and doing that work. And I think it's really beautiful.
22:31
Speaker 2: It is beautiful. You're right. But it's always because the
22:34
Speaker 2: husband gets a girlfriend.
22:35
Speaker 3: I mean, but like you said earlier, it's deeper than that.
22:38
Speaker 3: It's so much deeper. I don't think it's that just
22:42
Speaker 3: because of that. I think there was, like like you said,
22:44
Speaker 3: decades of not sleeping together, roommate like that goes. I
22:48
Speaker 3: have had that same experience, except not even close to
22:50
Speaker 3: as long as those people have been married. You know.
22:53
Speaker 3: That's feeling of stagnant, like that stagnation feeling. I am out,
22:57
Speaker 3: I'm out fast, I can't be in it.
23:00
Speaker 2: You're right that it is much better. And with these
23:04
Speaker 2: communities that we have in this area, there's so many
23:07
Speaker 2: activities and new friend groups and support groups and any
23:11
Speaker 2: new beginning or a chance that finding yourself is worth it.
23:14
Speaker 3: I agree.
23:16
Speaker 1: Is it hard for you to be a divorce lawyer?
23:21
Speaker 2: It's not. And I can't really explain the reason, because
23:25
Speaker 2: most of my colleagues find it to be incredibly difficult
23:29
Speaker 2: on a personal level. They take the feelings home with
23:32
Speaker 2: them and I've just never been like that, and I
23:35
Speaker 2: don't really know the reason. I'm just suited for the job.
23:38
Speaker 2: I see it as a puzzle. I really, really I
23:41
Speaker 2: could be a life coach in another life. Although I'm
23:44
Speaker 2: not trained for that. I really enjoy it and I've
23:50
Speaker 2: as after thirty, I no longer work every hour of
23:54
Speaker 2: the week. I have really good boundaries. All my clients
23:57
Speaker 2: have my cell phone number. They appropriately I really like
24:02
Speaker 2: my job. But if other divorce lawyers are telling you
24:07
Speaker 2: the truth, I think I'm in the minority on that.
24:10
Speaker 3: How do you separate the emotion? Like, how do you
24:12
Speaker 3: do that it.
24:14
Speaker 2: Stays at the office. I really treat this as a
24:16
Speaker 2: job that I like. I care about my clients. I
24:19
Speaker 2: think they really care. I have wonderful clients. I'm very
24:24
Speaker 2: realistic with people. You probably know divorce attorneys can treat
24:31
Speaker 2: the job as making a lot of money, fighting a lot,
24:34
Speaker 2: filing a lot of emotions, billing by the hour. The
24:37
Speaker 2: more fighting, the sooner my kids get their college paid.
24:41
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a reality of the job, and our
24:46
Speaker 2: business model is saving people money, keeping the emotions in check.
24:51
Speaker 2: I'm very realistic with them up front. We talk about
24:54
Speaker 2: their goals, we talk about the law, we talk about
24:56
Speaker 2: the process, we talk about mediation, and I our office
25:02
Speaker 2: is trying to change the culture of divorce in Arizona,
25:05
Speaker 2: and that's how I treat it.
25:08
Speaker 1: Would you recommend a prenup for people that get married.
25:13
Speaker 2: I do recommend a prenup, and I don't think that
25:18
Speaker 2: it should hold the stereotype of you're getting a prenup
25:23
Speaker 2: and that's anti love, or if you're going to be together,
25:26
Speaker 2: you don't need it. I think there are many benefits
25:30
Speaker 2: to a prenup and anybody who's not twenty with nothing
25:34
Speaker 2: should consider it.
25:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for sure. I guess my piece with the divorce,
25:41
Speaker 1: just for my personal stuff is the fact that you know,
25:44
Speaker 1: I pay my ex husband. I paid him a lump sum,
25:47
Speaker 1: and I also pay him child support and I have
25:49
Speaker 1: the kids seventy it's seventy thirty split. So I find
25:53
Speaker 1: it I always get a little like frustrated when I
25:56
Speaker 1: have conversations of just you know, because divorce and because
26:01
Speaker 1: it kind of just brings up all those you know,
26:04
Speaker 1: those feelings and that resentment and it's just it's just yuck.
26:08
Speaker 2: I don't like.
26:09
Speaker 3: I wish you would have planned a prenup.
26:10
Speaker 1: We had a post up, but the problem was my
26:12
Speaker 1: divorce lawyer said it's not going to hold up in
26:14
Speaker 1: court as well as a prenup, and he's like, he
26:17
Speaker 1: technically can fight it and he could still technically win half,
26:22
Speaker 1: you know, which my ex husband at the time was like,
26:25
Speaker 1: I will never fight this, you know what I mean, which,
26:27
Speaker 1: of course when we got divorced, he's like, I'm going
26:29
Speaker 1: to fight this. But apparently again they the prenup will
26:33
Speaker 1: always hold up. And then if is that right or wrong?
26:36
Speaker 1: Prenup holds up better than post.
26:38
Speaker 2: Up, that's exactly right.
26:40
Speaker 1: So that's why, you know, with that situation, it's uh,
26:46
Speaker 1: I wish for sure I would have had signed a
26:48
Speaker 1: prenup with him prenup, but you know, at the end
26:51
Speaker 1: of the day, I still would be paying child support.
26:53
Speaker 1: That is the law of with the things, and that's
26:55
Speaker 1: you know, a whole other story.
26:57
Speaker 3: But feel free to tell me too off, But did
27:00
Speaker 3: you sign one this time around?
27:02
Speaker 1: So we have never discussed that. We're still not going
27:05
Speaker 1: to discuss that. But but you know, it was it
27:09
Speaker 1: was a very long conversation. We had a lot of
27:12
Speaker 1: conversation around it, and uh, I think it's really hard
27:16
Speaker 1: for men to have that conversation, especially you know, my
27:21
Speaker 1: husband is very old school and you know, did not
27:26
Speaker 1: love the idea of it. And you know, whatever we
27:29
Speaker 1: decided was a private matter, but it was something that
27:32
Speaker 1: was very important to say. It was very important to
27:34
Speaker 1: me because of how much was taken from my ex,
27:38
Speaker 1: how much my ex husband took.
27:40
Speaker 2: I think you probably, even if you did or didn't
27:44
Speaker 2: having that conversation, you were miles ahead of most people
27:48
Speaker 2: because it's such a tough topic. If you two talked
27:52
Speaker 2: it through and talked about all your assets and what
27:55
Speaker 2: you think for the future, that's you're doing better than
27:59
Speaker 2: a lot of people before they get married.
28:01
Speaker 1: So super But my my divorce attorney was definitely likes
28:05
Speaker 1: you are have it like there's no like. He's like,
28:08
Speaker 1: you are signing this, and I'm just like, Okay, I
28:11
Speaker 1: hear you and I need to have we have to
28:12
Speaker 1: have conversations. It's it's a conversation piece because I am
28:16
Speaker 1: you know, old school and the fact that I do
28:18
Speaker 1: believe in you know, love and a marriage actually lasting.
28:22
Speaker 1: I you know, I didn't get it right this go around.
28:25
Speaker 1: And that's why I love this podcast because this is
28:26
Speaker 1: about you know, I do part two and you know, Cheryl,
28:29
Speaker 1: I didn't get it right a couple of times. And Cheryl,
28:31
Speaker 1: you know you didn't. We thought you got it right,
28:35
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But I think there's a
28:36
Speaker 1: piece of that I do Part two that I that
28:39
Speaker 1: I love and where you know, as sad as when
28:43
Speaker 1: I asked you the question about you know, is it
28:45
Speaker 1: hard for you? Because I believe that as much as
28:49
Speaker 1: divorce makes me so sad, Cheryl, I've seen from watching
28:53
Speaker 1: you on the outside of things you have, there's a
28:57
Speaker 1: different aura about you now. You're happier, you're lighter, You've
29:01
Speaker 1: like I see it from just watching your stories. And
29:04
Speaker 1: I love that people have their next chapters and that
29:08
Speaker 1: they get to fall in love again and find love
29:10
Speaker 1: that they deserve and that suits them and that you know,
29:14
Speaker 1: respects them. And so that is like so beautiful and
29:17
Speaker 1: you've come into your own and like it's just it's
29:20
Speaker 1: really beautiful to witness someone falling in love with themselves
29:23
Speaker 1: for then that person to fall in love with them
29:27
Speaker 1: and respect them the way that they deserve. So, you know,
29:30
Speaker 1: I appreciate Kate you coming on and talking to us,
29:34
Speaker 1: and you know, I just I look forward to all
29:37
Speaker 1: the people that have their part too, Cheryl, yours is
29:40
Speaker 1: coming up. See it's common, it's common. I feel the
29:42
Speaker 1: glow up I do. I just I see it and
29:44
Speaker 1: I love the lightness in you. You know, you've you've,
29:47
Speaker 1: You've entered the lights.
29:49
Speaker 3: Definitely different from our last conversation.
29:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kate, thank you so much for coming on.
29:54
Speaker 2: Thank you both.
29:55
Speaker 1: Are you divorced? Navigating what your I Do Part two
29:58
Speaker 1: could look like? I need some advice? Call us or
30:00
Speaker 1: email us, follow us on socials. All the information will
30:03
Speaker 1: be in the show notes. Make sure to rate and
30:04
Speaker 1: review the podcast I Do Part two and iHeartRadio podcast
30:08
Speaker 1: where falling in love is the main objective. Love you, Cheryl,
30:11
Speaker 1: Love you,