Latest / Financial Survival Network / How AI Algorithms Quietly Rewrite Reality - Jacob Ward #6348

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How AI Algorithms Quietly Rewrite Reality - Jacob Ward #6348 · Financial Survival Network

0:00
Speaker 1: At the same time that we're all being worked by
0:02
Speaker 1: this system. And I don't necessarily think of this as
0:05
Speaker 1: a grand conspiracy. I just think of it as the
0:06
Speaker 1: way the market moves. But but I, you know, I
0:10
Speaker 1: really think everybody can feel it, right. You just can
0:13
Speaker 1: sense this dissatisfaction in people around that stuff. The algorithm
0:18
Speaker 1: is getting people down, and I feel like there's an
0:20
Speaker 1: allergic reaction that people are kind of developing to this
0:23
Speaker 1: stuff that hasn't fantasticized to regulation yet, but I feel
0:26
Speaker 1: like it's certainly there culturally, and like kids right now
0:29
Speaker 1: are the term that people are more using. For AI
0:33
Speaker 1: and for older people who over rely on it is clanker.
0:36
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1:04
Speaker 3: Anyway. Welcome to Financial Survival Network. I'm your host, Carrie Lutz.
1:09
Speaker 3: With us now is Jacob Ward, author of recent book
1:14
Speaker 3: The Loop, How technology is creating a world without choices.
1:19
Speaker 3: Little ominous title there, Jacob, Like you've been a reporter,
1:24
Speaker 3: a journalist your entire life career, many different news organizations.
1:33
Speaker 3: I thought the whole purpose of technology was to increase
1:37
Speaker 3: our choices, to make our lives richer, to give us
1:40
Speaker 3: opportunities that we never had before.
1:43
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny carry well, first of all, thanks
1:46
Speaker 1: so much for having me and I and I yeah,
1:47
Speaker 1: I you know that there there are these moments and
1:50
Speaker 1: I haven't I feel like I should coin a phrase
1:52
Speaker 1: for these moments where there's this there's this intermediary moment
1:56
Speaker 1: where technology does tend to do that right where it
1:59
Speaker 1: has in the past. On that I was thinking, you know,
2:01
Speaker 1: I was around for the early days of the Internet
2:05
Speaker 1: when it was still migrating from being an entirely academic,
2:09
Speaker 1: you know, plaything to something that anybody who the dial
2:14
Speaker 1: up connections could start to play around with. And that's
2:16
Speaker 1: that was the early days of bloggers and the rest
2:18
Speaker 1: of it. And suddenly you're in this world where you know,
2:21
Speaker 1: there really was this promise of like, wow, the information
2:24
Speaker 1: of the world at your fingertips. And I remember at
2:26
Speaker 1: that time thinking to myself, Man, when I have kids
2:29
Speaker 1: they're going to be in this position to just develop
2:32
Speaker 1: any taste they want in any form of entertainment. They're
2:35
Speaker 1: going to have, you know, really specific taste in you know,
2:41
Speaker 1: Kurdish folk music or you know, tango or who knows
2:44
Speaker 1: what they're going to be into, because they're going to
2:46
Speaker 1: have the choice any choice they possibly want. Right today.
2:50
Speaker 1: I just recently took a trip to Portugal, and when
2:52
Speaker 1: I go, it used to be that when I would
2:53
Speaker 1: go on trips, I like that I always want to
2:56
Speaker 1: bring back what kids are wearing for my kids, to
2:59
Speaker 1: sort of point it out to them, you know. And
3:01
Speaker 1: and I go to I'm on the subway in Lisbon,
3:04
Speaker 1: and I'm looking around, and every single one of those
3:08
Speaker 1: kids is wearing exactly the same thing as my kids
3:10
Speaker 1: wear back at home. And that's the TikTok effect, right
3:13
Speaker 1: because the trends are being consolidated and commercialized so quickly
3:18
Speaker 1: now that it's not cool to be into Kurtish folk music.
3:22
Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's a I'm sure a corner
3:25
Speaker 1: of the internet for everything, and I've talked to lots
3:29
Speaker 1: of people for whom it is a place to curate
3:31
Speaker 1: your own tastes. But if you go with the flow
3:33
Speaker 1: of modern technology and where it's pushing us. It doesn't
3:36
Speaker 1: let kids develop their own taste and stuff. It tries
3:40
Speaker 1: to shape their taste where wherever it can. And that's
3:42
Speaker 1: why I ended up writing The Loop. Was this worry
3:45
Speaker 1: I had that that there's huge behavioral science findings over
3:49
Speaker 1: the last fifty sixty years that are showing us just
3:51
Speaker 1: how shapable we are. And then at the same time,
3:54
Speaker 1: I was you know, this was pre transformer models, pre CHGBT.
3:58
Speaker 1: I was looking at all these companies who are looking
4:00
Speaker 1: using early machine learning models to try to spot the
4:03
Speaker 1: patterns and people's behavior and shape those patterns wherever they could.
4:06
Speaker 1: And I just thought, oh, there's a real problem coming here.
4:09
Speaker 1: And so I wrote the book and then and I
4:13
Speaker 1: published it, and literally nine months later chat gipt came out,
4:16
Speaker 1: and I've been spending the last few years just watching
4:18
Speaker 1: my thesis come to life basically, and I'll tell you
4:21
Speaker 1: carry is it's one thing, you know, you think you
4:23
Speaker 1: want to be right when you write a book, but
4:26
Speaker 1: this is an instance in which I wish I had
4:28
Speaker 1: not been as right.
4:29
Speaker 3: So so interesting because I got like a line of
4:34
Speaker 3: t shirts that I just created using the AI, and
4:38
Speaker 3: my biggest hit is don't let the algorithm get you down.
4:43
Speaker 1: Right, right? I mean, this is the thing is that
4:45
Speaker 1: at the same time that we're all being worked by
4:48
Speaker 1: this system. And I don't necessarily think of this as
4:50
Speaker 1: a grand conspiracy. I just think of it as the
4:52
Speaker 1: way the market moves. But but I, you know, I
4:55
Speaker 1: really think everybody can feel it, right. You just can
4:59
Speaker 1: sense this dissatisfaction in people around that stuff. The algorithm
5:04
Speaker 1: is getting people down, and I feel like there's an
5:06
Speaker 1: allergic reaction that people are kind of developing to this
5:08
Speaker 1: stuff that hasn't fantasticized to regulation yet, but I feel
5:12
Speaker 1: like it's certainly there culturally. And like kids right now,
5:15
Speaker 1: are they? The term that people are more more using
5:18
Speaker 1: for AI and for older people who over rely on
5:20
Speaker 1: it is clanker. So when when a when a piece
5:24
Speaker 1: of AI makes something people think is stupid, they're like, stupid, clanker,
5:28
Speaker 1: don't do that, you know what? Or or fake videos
5:30
Speaker 1: of somebody the guilty look at this clanker. Oh yeah,
5:33
Speaker 1: totally right. And so I feel like there's something that's
5:36
Speaker 1: something great in kids that they're seeing this clearly, you know,
5:40
Speaker 1: I love it.
5:41
Speaker 3: I love it. Yeah, it's you know, kids don't do
5:44
Speaker 3: homework anymore.
5:46
Speaker 1: Uh.
5:47
Speaker 3: And like the thing is, when you work with the AI,
5:51
Speaker 3: it adapts to you and speaks in your voice. There's
5:56
Speaker 3: virtually no way that it can be tected. And then
6:01
Speaker 3: you could put it through multiple ais called stacking, and
6:05
Speaker 3: no one will ever be able to figure it out.
6:08
Speaker 1: So that's right, we did. Why you have teachers having
6:10
Speaker 1: to go back to nineteenth century techniques like having you
6:12
Speaker 1: write it out in long hand in class? Right, there's
6:15
Speaker 1: no there. They can't even take advantage of this technology
6:19
Speaker 1: in any sort of productive way. They have to just
6:21
Speaker 1: like go back to like lamplight kind of teaching techniques. Yeah.
6:27
Speaker 3: And you know, look, they stopped teaching cursive writing in
6:33
Speaker 3: school like twenty years ago, So what the heck is
6:36
Speaker 3: the point of all this?
6:38
Speaker 1: Right? Right? Right?
6:40
Speaker 3: They should have never done that, just like they shouldn't
6:42
Speaker 3: have allowed calculators into the classroom. But you know they
6:47
Speaker 3: didn't consultant.
6:48
Speaker 1: Me, right, yeah, exactly. I know they didn't call either
6:50
Speaker 1: of us. I don't know why that was. Yeah, So
6:54
Speaker 1: I worry a lot about this, this you know, tendency
6:57
Speaker 1: that we've had. I was just on a I'm here's
7:00
Speaker 1: what your opinion is about this. This is on this
7:02
Speaker 1: podcast the other day with a couple of people who
7:05
Speaker 1: are former Uber and former Google people, and the former
7:09
Speaker 1: Uber guy god Nam Chris sad very angry at the
7:13
Speaker 1: whole notion that I was proposing, which is that we
7:15
Speaker 1: should have been more careful, and that we should in
7:17
Speaker 1: general be more careful. And you know, this notion for instance,
7:21
Speaker 1: that you know, before releasing a large language model, you
7:25
Speaker 1: should have had a large language model detector, right, you
7:29
Speaker 1: shouldn't have You shouldn't have put it out there until
7:31
Speaker 1: we could have reliably detected what's AI generated. And it's
7:35
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that he that made him crazy.
7:37
Speaker 1: He just was so upset at that notion. He said,
7:39
Speaker 1: you know, the whole point of innovation is to move fast,
7:43
Speaker 1: break things, and figure it out later. That's how we
7:45
Speaker 1: get great ideas, you know. And he's just absolutely you know,
7:48
Speaker 1: I really he was just fuming about this, this concept,
7:52
Speaker 1: and and I just kept trying to say, but shouldn't
7:54
Speaker 1: there be a limit here, shouldn't there be some consideration
7:57
Speaker 1: ahead of time, you know? And and he did not
8:00
Speaker 1: seem to feel that way. And I think that his
8:02
Speaker 1: opinion is not uncommon, and I wonder what you think
8:04
Speaker 1: about that.
8:05
Speaker 3: You know, I used to have that same opinion. But
8:10
Speaker 3: the problem is every technology can be used for evil.
8:16
Speaker 3: It's going to be implied.
8:18
Speaker 1: And what for you was the turning point when did
8:20
Speaker 1: you what technology or what moment made you reconsider that?
8:24
Speaker 1: Do you think?
8:25
Speaker 3: You know? I think I think when I look at
8:29
Speaker 3: modern weaponry and it's got all these chips in it,
8:34
Speaker 3: and you know, it just really said, we're getting like
8:41
Speaker 3: too far ahead here. I feel like it's out of control.
8:46
Speaker 3: And now that the AI is designing the success of
8:50
Speaker 3: hardware generations, you see it in video. Their AI is
8:56
Speaker 3: designing those chips. No human can do it. And then Tesla,
9:01
Speaker 3: that company is completely AI generated. Their products are being generated,
9:07
Speaker 3: maybe not wholly, but more more by the AI than
9:13
Speaker 3: by humans. And you know, it's like the AI has
9:18
Speaker 3: to fake empathy. Oh yeah, humans either have it or
9:22
Speaker 3: they don't. But you know, it just seemed to me
9:27
Speaker 3: that but the toothpaste is out of the tube, whereas
9:32
Speaker 3: I like to say, the junie, the genie is out
9:35
Speaker 3: of the toothpaste tube and there's no putting it back.
9:39
Speaker 1: I don't know, I hear so many people say that,
9:41
Speaker 1: but I have to say, like Carrie, we're we're really
9:44
Speaker 1: good at putting toothpaste in tubes, like we're you know,
9:47
Speaker 1: we as a country we do that pretty well, you know,
9:49
Speaker 1: like we've You and I would be sitting here smoking
9:51
Speaker 1: cigarettes together if it weren't for you know, people thinking
9:55
Speaker 1: it through. And you know, people hate to hear that comparison.
9:58
Speaker 1: They think, oh, well, cigarettes is they're you know, very different.
10:01
Speaker 1: I think, I don't know, man, Like, definitely they were
10:04
Speaker 1: bad for us. They felt really good to use. They
10:08
Speaker 1: were you know, you you you literally couldn't go anywhere
10:11
Speaker 1: without smoking. It was in every movie, plant nice, airplanes, everywhere.
10:17
Speaker 1: And this is the thing that bothers me about how
10:21
Speaker 1: we think about about AI is is you know what
10:25
Speaker 1: I keep trying to remind people is like, it's not
10:27
Speaker 1: going to feel good to make the right choice around
10:30
Speaker 1: this technology. It's going to feel bad. It's going to
10:33
Speaker 1: feel like you don't want to do it, you know,
10:37
Speaker 1: to use this stuff less or any of that thing.
10:40
Speaker 1: And that's the thing with cigarettes. If you ask somebody
10:42
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, hey do you like smoking, they'd say,
10:46
Speaker 1: I love smoking. It feels great. You know, it's not
10:50
Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty five that they start to regulate against it,
10:53
Speaker 1: and you and you had to do it on the
10:54
Speaker 1: basis of what we could see empirically was happening to
10:57
Speaker 1: people's bodies. And in this case, I think we're going
10:59
Speaker 1: to see empirically what's happening to people's brains. And there's
11:03
Speaker 1: going to have to be a shift. But it's not
11:05
Speaker 1: going to come from people just saying no, I'm gonna
11:09
Speaker 1: quit smoking on my own, you know. Yeah, you know.
11:13
Speaker 3: It's one of those things where the benefits are so
11:15
Speaker 3: great though, And I know that.
11:18
Speaker 1: Is the argument that I keep hearing, right, the benefit
11:20
Speaker 1: the democratizing of superpowers is how people describe it, right that. Yeah,
11:25
Speaker 1: and I get it. I hear that, But I just
11:30
Speaker 1: feel like, I don't know. I had a piece up
11:32
Speaker 1: on the ripecurrent dot com about just give it to
11:35
Speaker 1: scientists for a while, Like, let's give it to people
11:37
Speaker 1: whose job it is to make good use of it.
11:40
Speaker 1: Let's not use it to make like porn girlfriends yet,
11:44
Speaker 1: you know, let's not use it to do this other
11:46
Speaker 1: crap yet, Let's just give it to like climate scientists,
11:50
Speaker 1: social scientists, Like, let's let them use it for five years,
11:54
Speaker 1: then the rest of us can get a license to
11:56
Speaker 1: do it. But I just think, man, we're moving too fast.
11:59
Speaker 3: It seems to me, Yeah, that's the thing. We're going
12:02
Speaker 3: at such a speed. There isn't a feedback loop built
12:06
Speaker 3: into this to actually judge the impact on society, And
12:13
Speaker 3: is it something we should put limits on? And we're
12:16
Speaker 3: counting on the companies pedaling it actually put the limits
12:21
Speaker 3: on it. And that's like expecting big pharma to.
12:27
Speaker 1: Actually want to cure you as the car companies are
12:31
Speaker 1: going to do the seat belts on their own. And Ralph, yeah,
12:33
Speaker 1: never had had to get involved. That's exactly right. I
12:36
Speaker 1: think that's right. I mean, you mentioned the title of
12:39
Speaker 1: my book, and it is a dark setup, right, the loop,
12:44
Speaker 1: how AI screening roll without choices. But the other part
12:47
Speaker 1: of that is and how to fight back. And I
12:50
Speaker 1: would argue that there are some things coming that I
12:53
Speaker 1: do feel like, even though this thing moves really fast,
12:56
Speaker 1: there is some We've talked already about the cultural allergy
12:59
Speaker 1: that I think we're seeing. I'm also seeing places in which,
13:02
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the big things is
13:03
Speaker 1: going to be in this country. We're very good at
13:06
Speaker 1: regulating about death, and we're good at regulating about financial loss.
13:11
Speaker 1: We're not great at other forms of harm, right, and
13:15
Speaker 1: even addiction, we don't tend to regulate well, you know,
13:19
Speaker 1: we do okay, but not great. You know, we are
13:22
Speaker 1: legalizing gambling across the country on your phone, you know,
13:25
Speaker 1: like there's all kinds of places in which we really
13:27
Speaker 1: are happy to let people, you know, burn themselves on
13:31
Speaker 1: the fire. But I do think that more and more
13:34
Speaker 1: you're seeing in court places where companies are beginning to recognize, oh,
13:41
Speaker 1: we actually have some liability here, and at the very
13:45
Speaker 1: least they're starting to settle. So I've been covering a
13:47
Speaker 1: lot of these social casino games. These are simulators online
13:51
Speaker 1: that simulate casino games, blackjack and so forth, and people
13:57
Speaker 1: are increasingly beginning to sue because huge numbers of people
14:01
Speaker 1: are losing their life savings to these games. It costs
14:03
Speaker 1: money to play, but you can win no real money back,
14:07
Speaker 1: So it's the definition of a loser's game. And it's
14:10
Speaker 1: typically like elderly folks, a lot of elderly women that
14:14
Speaker 1: get ensnared by this stuff, right, And initially they would
14:18
Speaker 1: just get laughed out of court, But now class actions
14:20
Speaker 1: are starting to go forward that are succeeding at least
14:23
Speaker 1: in scoring big settlements, like half billion dollar settlements, because
14:27
Speaker 1: you can tell that these companies don't want to reveal
14:30
Speaker 1: the mechanism. They don't want to go through discovery.
14:33
Speaker 3: And exactly in.
14:34
Speaker 1: Early twenty twenty six, we're we're going to see two
14:36
Speaker 1: big court cases against the social media giants that I
14:39
Speaker 1: think are also going to show that you're going to
14:40
Speaker 1: get discovery. You know, this is going to have to
14:42
Speaker 1: You're gonna Zuckerberg and Massia are going to have to
14:44
Speaker 1: go on the stand. And I think we're going to
14:46
Speaker 1: start to see the mechanism by which companies are messing
14:51
Speaker 1: with our choices. And I like to believe that there
14:55
Speaker 1: is an era coming when it's life liberty, the pursuit
14:59
Speaker 1: of have and something about agency. You know that there's
15:05
Speaker 1: going to be something about being free to make your
15:07
Speaker 1: own choices. You know, there's a Duke law researcher named
15:11
Speaker 1: Nita Farahani who calls a cognitive liberty. And I like
15:16
Speaker 1: to think that we're on a path toward, at the
15:18
Speaker 1: very least winning legal judgments and some settlements on that basis.
15:22
Speaker 1: And I hope that can somehow change things.
15:26
Speaker 3: And I'm going to take this opportunity to mention what
15:28
Speaker 3: I was alluding to before. But sovereignty is really what
15:33
Speaker 3: we're sovereignized south the world over there. That's right, that's right.
15:37
Speaker 3: And look my channel here on this site that you're
15:44
Speaker 3: going to be watching this. I don't want to name
15:46
Speaker 3: the name because then the algorithm will pin it and
15:49
Speaker 3: further suppress it. I've been suppressed for thirteen years because
15:54
Speaker 3: some professor once upon a time came up a list
15:57
Speaker 3: with a list of one hundred and forty sites that
16:00
Speaker 3: she determined where disinformation or misinformation. And finally I just
16:07
Speaker 3: said I'm not taking it anymore, and I sent off letters.
16:12
Speaker 3: Physical you want to get a response, don't send an email.
16:16
Speaker 3: Send a letter that somebody has to tear open and
16:20
Speaker 3: actually scan into the thing to read it. And they
16:25
Speaker 3: let one of my videos go. I guess I had
16:29
Speaker 3: on for thirteen years, twenty four interviews, never did more
16:33
Speaker 3: than one to nine thousand views. The one time they
16:36
Speaker 3: let it go, I got one hundred and fifty thousand views,
16:40
Speaker 3: twenty six hundred new subscribers, and the over one thousand
16:46
Speaker 3: dollars in revenue. So that's proof it's smoking gun. Because
16:50
Speaker 3: it happened within days after my letters. They immediately rolled
16:54
Speaker 3: back the algorithm, so I never had another one of
16:58
Speaker 3: those happen again. I got to prove because AI helped
17:01
Speaker 3: me prove exactly what they're doing. I have six AIS.
17:05
Speaker 3: So I'm starting an action down here in Florida because,
17:09
Speaker 3: like you said, put Zuckerberg there, put the Sundar there,
17:14
Speaker 3: and put to the other people there, because they're all
17:17
Speaker 3: doing it, even though now they say they're not doing
17:21
Speaker 3: it by viewpoint, politics, whatever. My big crime is that
17:25
Speaker 3: I'm into Bostrian economics, free market economics, and believe in
17:31
Speaker 3: protecting your wealth with gold and silver. That's what their
17:35
Speaker 3: own AI told me. That's my crime. And I feel
17:40
Speaker 3: like Kafka GPT because I've been accused of a crime
17:44
Speaker 3: that I don't know what it was, and I'm being
17:46
Speaker 3: punished for it without ever having had a trial or
17:50
Speaker 3: face any allegations.
17:52
Speaker 1: Well, and this is going to be the big quote, Like,
17:54
Speaker 1: if what I'm describing comes to pass, it's going to
17:58
Speaker 1: be a huge controversy and a huge point of debate
18:02
Speaker 1: because there's for every instance in which you know somebody
18:07
Speaker 1: is clearly being manipulated by let's say, a big casino company.
18:12
Speaker 1: There's going to be these much squishier places, right, and
18:15
Speaker 1: there's going to be this gray area that we're going
18:17
Speaker 1: to have to sort out in which there's your instance,
18:22
Speaker 1: but then there's I don't know Andrew Tait, right, who
18:25
Speaker 1: I would argue, is is doing true damage to the
18:29
Speaker 1: minds of young people, right, young men? And so what like,
18:33
Speaker 1: how are we going to adjudicate that I don't know, right?
18:35
Speaker 1: And you look at at China, which has you know,
18:40
Speaker 1: one of the things that bothers me the most about
18:41
Speaker 1: the rhetoric that we follow here in this country about
18:43
Speaker 1: China and needing to compete with them in AI is
18:45
Speaker 1: that somehow they don't regulate, which is crazy to me.
18:48
Speaker 1: That's the most regulated. It's crazy how much they regulate.
18:52
Speaker 1: Like if you are the CEO of an AI company
18:55
Speaker 1: and the AI is used to make fun of Jijinping,
18:58
Speaker 1: you the CEBO are personally liable for that. It's not
19:01
Speaker 1: even you know, not only do they not have a
19:03
Speaker 1: section two thirty that BBO goes to jail, right, So
19:07
Speaker 1: to my mind, like the regulation is enormous on the
19:10
Speaker 1: other and I think so I've every in my weaker moments,
19:13
Speaker 1: I think, well, maybe that's what kind of the thing
19:15
Speaker 1: we need, is that kind of liability. But then I
19:18
Speaker 1: also go well yeah, But then at the same time
19:21
Speaker 1: they you know, something like deep seek. The AI model
19:25
Speaker 1: that they made im cheap there has to be has
19:28
Speaker 1: to conform to communist central authority teachings, right, socialist teachings,
19:33
Speaker 1: and so what do you I don't know, I don't know.
19:36
Speaker 3: How to how to sort of Yeah, that's boomed for
19:39
Speaker 3: that reason because it AI has to function on truth,
19:45
Speaker 3: and when you give it these conflicting missions, it starts hallucinating.
19:51
Speaker 3: And yeah, try looking up Tieneman Square and they'll have
19:55
Speaker 3: a picture with a May Day parade there. It's not
19:58
Speaker 3: going to mention anything about the ten one thousand people.
20:00
Speaker 3: It just slaughtered back whenever that was I don't remember,
20:06
Speaker 3: so long ago in the eighties, and you know the
20:10
Speaker 3: revisionist history and all that. So it's definitely problematical. But
20:16
Speaker 3: on the other hand, so our awareness has been outstripped
20:21
Speaker 3: by the ability of bad actors to take advantage of
20:25
Speaker 3: our biomechanical, biochemical makeup. Is what we're talking about, is
20:32
Speaker 3: the dopamine loop dating apps do you think dating apps
20:37
Speaker 3: really want you to find your true love, right, No,
20:40
Speaker 3: they want you to become just like Big Pharma. They
20:43
Speaker 3: want you to become a lifetime subscriber. And I wrote
20:48
Speaker 3: a book, let's say you know, under a pseudonym Johnny Depp,
20:53
Speaker 3: The Complete Guide to Dating App Hacks. And basically it's like,
21:00
Speaker 3: originally the algorithm, I used to work for the algorithm,
21:03
Speaker 3: but now the algorithm works for me. I don't pay
21:05
Speaker 3: for any of them, and it keeps sending me and
21:08
Speaker 3: sending me and sending me. So you can manipulate it,
21:12
Speaker 3: but you got to be aware that it's happening. These
21:15
Speaker 3: people like who become compulsive online gamblers. It's just like drugs, right,
21:21
Speaker 3: It's just like crack. It's the dopamine loop. And you know,
21:26
Speaker 3: when we were growing up, we didn't know anything about neurotransmitters,
21:30
Speaker 3: serotonin and all the others.
21:33
Speaker 1: We did know to prosecute drug dealers, yeah, you know,
21:37
Speaker 1: but we didn't know the mechanism as well as we do.
21:39
Speaker 3: Now that's right, we prosecute them, but then we have
21:43
Speaker 3: three letter agencies that are among the biggest smugglers of
21:48
Speaker 3: drugs in the world. So it's complicated. So in any event,
21:55
Speaker 3: when we're moving ahead, you and I have this conversation.
21:58
Speaker 3: In five years, neither of us are doing any work
22:02
Speaker 3: anymore because the bots are all doing it in our names.
22:06
Speaker 3: Where are we going to be here, Jacob?
22:08
Speaker 1: I know, well, this is the big question, right, I mean,
22:10
Speaker 1: we're you know, there's this quote from Dario Amedai, the
22:14
Speaker 1: found of Anthropic, in which he says that we're going
22:16
Speaker 1: to you know that he says you should He literally
22:19
Speaker 1: says out loud, you should be worried about what we
22:21
Speaker 1: are making. He told Axios, and he said, you know,
22:24
Speaker 1: we could cure cancer, we could create enormous wealth, and
22:26
Speaker 1: twenty percent of people could be out of work, and
22:29
Speaker 1: you know, you know, and I know you think that's
22:32
Speaker 1: a conservativestment, right, it could be fastly more than that.
22:35
Speaker 1: I mean. At the same time, you've got Sam Altman
22:36
Speaker 1: saying on a podcast last year that he and his
22:39
Speaker 1: tech CEO buddies have a bet going about who's going
22:42
Speaker 1: to have the first billion dollar one person company, right,
22:46
Speaker 1: And that that's another one where I just think, well,
22:48
Speaker 1: who's going to work for? How are we going to
22:50
Speaker 1: feed our families? If if a single person controls that
22:54
Speaker 1: percentage of the GDP, And so I really do think
22:58
Speaker 1: we're in a place where we're gonna have to get
23:00
Speaker 1: to a We're very quickly gonna have to get to
23:02
Speaker 1: a place where we're gonna have to reassess the value
23:06
Speaker 1: of human beings because it used to be that you
23:09
Speaker 1: assessed them on their productivity, you know, and their contribution
23:13
Speaker 1: to GDP, And now I really don't know. I think
23:17
Speaker 1: Andrew Yang turns out to have been kind of ahead
23:19
Speaker 1: of his time on what he was thinking about.
23:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, they say, how we're it's calm, there, it's coming.
23:25
Speaker 3: There's no choice. They either have to start a ward
23:27
Speaker 3: to get rid of a bunch of people like eighty percent,
23:31
Speaker 3: or they're gonna have to pay them. But on the
23:35
Speaker 3: other hand, Elon Musk warned about it too, like five
23:38
Speaker 3: six years ago. You don't hear him talking about it anymore.
23:40
Speaker 3: That AI was the greatest threat to humanity around, and
23:45
Speaker 3: you know that was really before chat GPT came out
23:49
Speaker 3: before the others. I think it's a challenge. But on
23:54
Speaker 3: the other hand, the current economic system has created huge injustices, imbalances,
24:07
Speaker 3: incorrect valuations between relative work. Who can say that the
24:13
Speaker 3: guy who's sweeping the airport bathroom is not as valuable
24:19
Speaker 3: as some performer on stage. It's getting paid tens of millions.
24:25
Speaker 1: I mean teachers, right, like a preschool teacher. Why aren't
24:29
Speaker 1: they making the same as a doctor. It makes no
24:32
Speaker 1: It is absolutely outrageous, right, and yet you know we're
24:35
Speaker 1: going to enter this way. You know, for me, I
24:38
Speaker 1: just worry about the you know, I'm trying to focus
24:40
Speaker 1: on like one day at a time. I'm one of
24:42
Speaker 1: the things that I think is coming. For instance, I
24:44
Speaker 1: had somebody, a very smart thinker about this named Molly
24:48
Speaker 1: Kinder who's at the Brookings Is Dude. She's been talking
24:50
Speaker 1: a lot about how she worries that AI is going
24:53
Speaker 1: to be he's going to do to non college educated
24:57
Speaker 1: women what offshore were outsourcing offshore did to non college
25:03
Speaker 1: uscated men in the United States, because she says that,
25:05
Speaker 1: you know, women with a high school education, if they
25:08
Speaker 1: needed a secure middle class existence, then they got into
25:11
Speaker 1: clerical work, bookkeeping admin.
25:14
Speaker 3: All of that is eelephone operator.
25:16
Speaker 1: Telephone out right exactly, that's all gone. And the wiping
25:21
Speaker 1: out of those jobs, which is absolutely what these folks
25:25
Speaker 1: are all on a path to do, is a huge problem.
25:27
Speaker 1: I mean in some countries, right, India has outlawed self
25:31
Speaker 1: driving vehicles because a huge percentage of men in that
25:36
Speaker 1: country make their living as professional drivers. Right, they recognize,
25:40
Speaker 1: like there is a really you know, even though this
25:42
Speaker 1: thing could work, we aren't going to let it go
25:44
Speaker 1: forward because of the destabilizing effect that's going to have
25:47
Speaker 1: on this country. And we just aren't there yet, I
25:50
Speaker 1: think as.
25:50
Speaker 3: A notion, and you mentioned driving, the largest job category
25:56
Speaker 3: in the United States is driver over ten million people,
26:00
Speaker 3: and that's truck drivers, limo drivers.
26:02
Speaker 1: I don't think that wow wow, Right, So.
26:06
Speaker 3: That's ten million people. And I'm telling you maybe six
26:09
Speaker 3: months to a year away from it, right, right, maybe
26:14
Speaker 3: a little more. It's happening.
26:16
Speaker 1: And the incredible I mean, as researcher after researcher will
26:19
Speaker 1: tell you, there is no more dangerous thing than a
26:25
Speaker 1: young unemployed generation. Like there's you know, seen especially of men, right,
26:30
Speaker 1: they're just it is an incredibly dangerous and destructive force.
26:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're back to like clockwork orange and nineteen
26:38
Speaker 3: eighty four and uh, I know what was the other one.
26:42
Speaker 3: I can't even remember, right exactly, I mean, but they are.
26:46
Speaker 1: But there are these examples in which people really have
26:48
Speaker 1: taken a forward looking view and said, Okay, we're going
26:51
Speaker 1: to change this around. You know, Germany has an incredible
26:54
Speaker 1: apprenticeship program for young people to get into chips and
26:57
Speaker 1: the rest of it. You know, they they you know,
27:00
Speaker 1: there's a reason that. I mean, if you look at
27:01
Speaker 1: like the soccer leagues in those countries, you know they
27:05
Speaker 1: the development process, the developmentally, I mean, the reason that
27:08
Speaker 1: a country of only eighty million people is like a
27:10
Speaker 1: world conquering dominant force in soccer. One of the reasons
27:16
Speaker 1: is the every town has a development league, you know,
27:19
Speaker 1: that is funded by you know, a common pool of money.
27:24
Speaker 1: And we just I think in this country, this idea
27:26
Speaker 1: that like bootstraps are going to get us there. We're
27:28
Speaker 1: about to find out that is not true and we're
27:30
Speaker 1: going to need a whole other development system. And I
27:32
Speaker 1: don't know what it's going to be, but if we
27:34
Speaker 1: don't get back into a world of apprenticeships and residencies
27:38
Speaker 1: or whatever we want to call it, yeah, I think
27:41
Speaker 1: we're gonna be in real trouble, real quick.
27:43
Speaker 3: Agreed. Agreed. So again, the book is the Loop. How
27:49
Speaker 3: AI is creating a world without choices and how to
27:52
Speaker 3: fight back it's on Amazon. I just ordered a copy
27:56
Speaker 3: of it myself, just to let you know. It's on
27:59
Speaker 3: sale thirty seven percent off at least on my thing here. Sorry,
28:03
Speaker 3: you're not going to get your fair royalty.
28:05
Speaker 1: I's all right, I'll take you all of sixty one.
28:07
Speaker 1: I don't even feel like you have to read it.
28:09
Speaker 1: Just buy it, that's all I care.
28:10
Speaker 3: Hey, well that's it. It'll look great on your bookshelf.
28:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, There you go.
28:14
Speaker 3: I try to read every book I buy because I
28:17
Speaker 3: feel like I'm into optimization, being a good steward of assets,
28:24
Speaker 3: not wasting. Well, it's impossible to keep up with it
28:28
Speaker 3: every with everything, and of course your website here, we
28:32
Speaker 3: would be remiss if we didn't mention that is theripcurrent
28:35
Speaker 3: dot com see all the latest episodes. And if you
28:39
Speaker 3: got a question for Jacob myself klatcarrieluts dot com our
28:44
Speaker 3: site Financial Survival Network dot com, Carrie LUTs dot com.
28:48
Speaker 3: That both take you to my substack, Jacob bet a pleasure.
28:51
Speaker 3: I'm really happy we connected to this again.
28:54
Speaker 1: Cheers, Thanks Garry, take.
28:55
Speaker 2: Care, Thanks for listening to Carrie Letz's Financial Survival Network
29:00
Speaker 2: your solution to today's trying times For the latest, go
29:04
Speaker 2: to Financial Survivalnetwork dot com. Financial Survival Network now more
29:10
Speaker 2: than ever