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Marine Vet Chokehold: Hero or Felon? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: A so called good samaritan seemingly risks his own life
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Speaker 2: to save other people on a subway, and now he
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Speaker 2: is being prosecuted for homicide. What really happened on that subway?
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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 3: Thank you for.
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Speaker 2: Being with us here at Fox Nation in series XM
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Speaker 2: one eleven. First of all, take a listen to our
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Speaker 2: friends at ABC seven.
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Speaker 4: In this citizen at video, police were told the man
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Speaker 4: who died was harassing passengers and making threats. That's when
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Speaker 4: a twenty four year old man stepped in and attempted
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Speaker 4: to subdue the man. A physical struggle ensued, leading to
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Speaker 4: the older man losing consciousness. He was rushed lenox Hill Hospital,
1:01
Speaker 4: where he was later pronounced dead. The twenty four year
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Speaker 4: old subway writer was questioned by detectives and release pending
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Speaker 4: additional investigation and an autopsy.
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Speaker 2: What really happened when one man loses his life and
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Speaker 2: another man seemingly a good samaritan faces many years behind bars.
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Speaker 2: With me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 2: what we know right now. But first of all, let's
1:29
Speaker 2: go straight out to a New York reporter with the
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Speaker 2: New York Daily News dot com.
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Speaker 3: Janan Fisher, Jaya, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
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Speaker 3: Jana.
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Speaker 2: What's your understanding of what happened on that subway?
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Speaker 5: So it was on May first, as a Monday, around
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Speaker 5: two thirty on the f train at Jordan Deely, who
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Speaker 5: is a homeless man with a history of mental illness,
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Speaker 5: got on the train at the second avenue. Who stopped
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Speaker 5: wrote it one stop?
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Speaker 3: Well hold on, who wha whah wah wait wait, well,
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Speaker 3: let me understand something.
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Speaker 2: Guys with me from the New York Daily News, Jane
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Speaker 2: and Fisher Jane. And when you're saying second Avenue, where
2:12
Speaker 2: on second Avenue?
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Speaker 3: Did he have the subway?
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Speaker 5: Sorry? Yeah, this is in Manhattan. This is downtown Manhattan
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Speaker 5: in New York City.
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Speaker 3: You're crossing with a second one.
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Speaker 5: It was second Avenue. And I guess Houston is where
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Speaker 5: the subway stomp is.
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Speaker 2: Not too far at all from NYU, the village, so
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Speaker 2: potentially on this train would be I guess students in
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Speaker 2: the middle of the workday, people going back and forth.
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Speaker 2: The city so so congested with traffic sometimes the only
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Speaker 2: way to get back and forth and make it on
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Speaker 2: time is a subway. I've often joked with my husband
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Speaker 2: and my children, should we walk or do we have
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Speaker 2: time to take cab?
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Speaker 3: In other words, it's traffic is so bad, it's faster.
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Speaker 3: I just walk.
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Speaker 2: Wherever you've got to go, even if it's sometimes a
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Speaker 2: couple of miles to get there, because traffic is just
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Speaker 2: totally stopped. So at that particular hop, how close is that?
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Speaker 2: Let me thank Houston. What is around that hop right there?
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Speaker 5: You know? Let me see that's there's some restaurants, you know, barbershop,
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Speaker 5: hardware store, there's a I think CATS's Delhi isn't too
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Speaker 5: far from there, you know. It's you know, there are
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Speaker 5: some you know, bars and restaurants. It's you know, it's
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Speaker 5: a residential area.
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean when you say kats Is Delhi, that
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Speaker 2: says it all because I would totally catch a subway
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Speaker 2: to get to cats As Delhi.
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Speaker 3: Having gone to NYU.
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Speaker 2: I've been at that stop many many times getting from
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Speaker 2: let's see at that time, I was at Court TV
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Speaker 2: and hl N and no, just at Court TV at
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Speaker 2: that point, and would take the subway all the way
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Speaker 2: down to my law classes at NYU. So I'm trying
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Speaker 2: to imagine who all was on on the subway at
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Speaker 2: that moment.
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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm getting a picture. Go ahead, dear right.
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Speaker 5: So yeah, it's hardly a rush hour, but you know
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Speaker 5: it's it's getting there. And so mister Neely, who is
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Speaker 5: a busker, homeless man, you know, with mental health problems.
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Speaker 5: He often personated Michael Jackson in the forty second Street
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Speaker 5: in the subway station for loose change from tourists and commuters.
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Speaker 5: He gets on the subway stop at Second Avenue and
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Speaker 5: according to witnesses, he becomes, you know, alarm. He is
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Speaker 5: starting to rant. He throws his Michael Jackson jacket down
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Speaker 5: on the floor. He says he's hungry. You know that
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Speaker 5: he's tiers who doesn't care anymore. He'll go to jail.
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Speaker 2: Okay, white, white, white, Wait sorry, Janeen, Yes, ma'am, you're
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Speaker 2: just giving me so much information. Is again drinking from
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Speaker 2: the fire hygent too much, too fast? Let me understand
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Speaker 2: how quote down, You've got a guy with I think
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Speaker 2: forty four.
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Speaker 3: Priors on his criminal history, and.
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Speaker 2: He takes off his jacket, throws it down and says
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Speaker 2: he's ready to die.
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Speaker 5: That's according to witnesses.
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Speaker 3: Yes, okay, go ahead, and then what happens.
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Speaker 5: So, you know other you know, according to daily news reporting,
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Speaker 5: you know, the MTA recorded that people believed that there
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Speaker 5: was a guy with a knife on the train, there
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Speaker 5: was a guy with a gun on the train, that
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Speaker 5: there was a that there was a danger.
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Speaker 2: Wait, people are starting to call MTA metro transit What
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Speaker 2: does it stand for authority?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Metropolitan Transportation authority.
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Speaker 2: So people on the subway, trapped on the subway, you
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Speaker 2: can't get off right, are calling, I guess calling from
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Speaker 2: the emergency phone that's there on the subway.
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Speaker 5: I think they're letting the conductor know who's on the
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Speaker 5: train with them, that they're that there's a danger on
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Speaker 5: the train.
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Speaker 3: Did any train personnel come help?
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Speaker 5: I know they're they're you know, they're trained not to
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Speaker 5: call the authorities, not to intervene in those situations.
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Speaker 3: Okay, white whit white, white white.
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Speaker 2: So people are afraid and they're calling MTA Metropolitan Transit authority,
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Speaker 2: asking for help. They think the guy has a knife
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Speaker 2: for a gun. He says he doesn't care if he dies.
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Speaker 2: He's sick of it, he's had it, and they MTA
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Speaker 2: are trained not to intervene.
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Speaker 5: Well, they're calling, they call the police, and they, you know,
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Speaker 5: and the police, the you know, the properly chained police
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Speaker 5: would would intervene in that situation. So, you know, the
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Speaker 5: distance between Second Avenue and a lot of Broadway Lafayette.
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Speaker 5: You know we're talking about, you know, thirty forty seconds,
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Speaker 5: forty five seconds, maybe a minute to between train stops.
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Speaker 2: Now, you know, I've never seen forty five seconds between
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Speaker 2: one and another stop.
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Speaker 5: Pretty quick stop, less than.
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Speaker 2: One minute between stops, because in all my years of
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Speaker 2: taking the New York subways, I've never gotten from one
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Speaker 2: stop to the next in forty five seconds that quickly
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Speaker 2: as anybody on this panel gotten between one stop and
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Speaker 2: another stop on a New York subway in less than
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Speaker 2: a minute.
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Speaker 6: Never, never in my life, never two minutes.
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Speaker 2: Wait, do you want to rethink that answer? I just
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Speaker 2: love saying that when people are on the stand. Would
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Speaker 2: you like a moment to rethink that answer? Jane and Fisher?
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Speaker 2: Forty five seconds between stops, I've not.
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Speaker 5: Timed it, but you know it's a very quick stop.
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Speaker 2: Well, I can guarantee you it's not forty five seconds
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Speaker 2: between stops.
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Speaker 3: That's not happening, and very quickly. Don't go anywhere Janeen,
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Speaker 3: I'm here, believe it or not.
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Speaker 2: I agree with everything you've said except that forty five
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Speaker 2: second thing. Hold on, doctor Bill Smart with me, Forensic
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Speaker 2: medical specialist, police surgeon for the Louisville Metric PD, Medical
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Speaker 2: director for the Training Institute on Strangulation Prevention, Good gravy man.
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Speaker 3: Do you were sleep, doctor Smock?
8:13
Speaker 2: How long does it take to aspixiate someone, strangle hang smother?
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Speaker 3: How long does it take to your dad?
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Speaker 7: Well, there's a well known progression. After you apply pressure
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Speaker 7: to the carotid arteries, things begin to happen. You are
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Speaker 7: unconscious in less than ten seconds, and because the cells
8:35
Speaker 7: of the brain have no oxygen reserve, they die every
8:38
Speaker 7: second they continue to go without oxygen. We know from
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Speaker 7: videotapes that you will go unconscious in that less than
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Speaker 7: ten second period and stop breathing somewhere between one and
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Speaker 7: two and a half minutes of pressure on the neck
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Speaker 7: blocking the carotid arders.
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Speaker 3: You know, doctor Smock.
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Speaker 2: That was brilliant the way you did that, because you
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Speaker 2: could have just said two minutes, but the way you
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Speaker 2: led me up to it, I didn't even want to interrupt. Okay,
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Speaker 2: two minutes, two and a half minutes.
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Speaker 7: Max, Yeah, somewhere between one and two and a half minutes,
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Speaker 7: so you will stop breathing.
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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 3: Duncan Levin is joining me.
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Speaker 2: Former federal prosecutor, now managing partner at eleven and Associates.
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Speaker 3: Duncan, thank you for being with us. With you, Natty Duncan.
9:42
Speaker 3: Do you have children?
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Speaker 8: I do?
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Speaker 3: How many for of them?
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Speaker 5: Little ones?
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Speaker 3: Boy? Girl?
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Speaker 9: What got you?
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Speaker 5: Girls?
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Speaker 8: And a boy? So they're starting to ride the subway.
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Speaker 3: So they're out there in New York ages by.
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Speaker 8: My youngest is seven, and then I have a twelve
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Speaker 8: year old and a fourteen year old.
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Speaker 3: What would you do?
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Speaker 2: Guy, clearly out of his mind, takes off his jacket,
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Speaker 2: throws it down, becomes erratic. You feel threatened. You've got
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Speaker 2: your seven year old, your twelve year old, and your
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Speaker 2: fourteen year old with you. What would you do? Would
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Speaker 2: you call MTA and hope that maybe they'd break their
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Speaker 2: policy and come help.
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Speaker 8: And that's the thing that everybody has to keep in mind.
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Speaker 2: Here, Oh wait a minute, Duncan Levin, that's why he's
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Speaker 2: such a good trial lawyer.
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Speaker 3: Look here, not here? What would you do? I mean,
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Speaker 3: because I tear him apart. I would go down.
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Speaker 2: Swinging bam if anybody got close.
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Speaker 3: To John, David or Lucy it's over.
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Speaker 8: Well, I think that that's right. But the question is
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Speaker 8: that we weren't there, and so that is what these
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Speaker 8: charges are going to be about is and what this
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Speaker 8: case is about.
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Speaker 5: Is whether.
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Speaker 8: That was the right decision to make in the time.
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Speaker 8: Only he knows he was there and there were witnesses there.
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Speaker 3: Okay, I can say where you're going with this, Duncan Levin,
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Speaker 3: and that's why you win so many cases.
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Speaker 2: Did you notice he did not answer, just for the record,
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Speaker 2: did not answer.
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Speaker 3: So Jane and Fisher, back to you, the poor thing.
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Speaker 3: I'm back on you now, Jana.
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Speaker 2: What do the witnesses, not the marine Daniel Penny, what
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Speaker 2: do the other witnesses say happened?
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Speaker 5: Well, you know the accounts very obviously, you know, like
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Speaker 5: I said that some people said he had a knight,
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Speaker 5: some people said he had a gun. That's what the
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Speaker 5: MTA recorded.
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Speaker 2: Oh I'm so glad they sat behind their desks and
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Speaker 2: recorded it all and did nothing but that said go ahead, right.
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Speaker 5: So there was a freelance journalist there that recorded the
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Speaker 5: aftermath and his account that he posted on Facebook was
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Speaker 5: that he didn't feel like that this man was a
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Speaker 5: true danger. So accounts very but there's definitely a you know,
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Speaker 5: indications that people were alarmed by Jordan Neely's behavior on
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Speaker 5: that train, that there was a you know, police sources
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Speaker 5: said that he was throwing garbage, uh, you know, and
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Speaker 5: that he was ranting.
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Speaker 3: Uh.
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Speaker 5: You know, there there's no report that he attacked anyone,
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Speaker 5: you know, that has not come out. Uh, you know
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Speaker 5: that anyone was confronted by him.
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Speaker 3: Got another question for you. I'm looking at the video.
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Speaker 2: I take it that's the one from Juan Alberto Vsquez.
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Speaker 5: That's correct.
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Speaker 2: I've been looking at that and I see someone, of course,
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Speaker 2: I see Daniel Penny.
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Speaker 3: And he has Jordan Neely in a choke cold.
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Speaker 2: And I see another male wearing a black jacket with
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Speaker 2: a white long sleeved shirt and a black band on
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Speaker 2: one of his ring his left ring fingers, suggesting he
12:54
Speaker 2: may be married, also holding down Jordan Neely. He's not
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Speaker 2: trying to pull Penny off Neely. He's trying to pull
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Speaker 2: Neely's hands back.
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Speaker 3: Who's that?
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Speaker 2: I mean?
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Speaker 5: We are not we have not identified the other participants
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Speaker 5: in you know, in Indian too, because I.
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Speaker 2: Find that significant. It's not as if other subway riders
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Speaker 2: are trying to pull Penny off. In fact, they're trying
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Speaker 2: to hold Jordan Neely's arms down so he can't hit Penny.
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Speaker 2: Has anybody noticed that, I mean joining me is Wilbert Chapman,
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Speaker 2: former NYPD Deputy Commissioner and former commissioner the NYC Department
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Speaker 2: Transportation Commissioner.
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Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: Have you noticed that this other guy Okay, now I
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Speaker 2: know I can see him in full it's actually helping
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Speaker 2: hold NELLI back, And I see a guy standing over
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Speaker 2: them in jeans and an army jacket. It looks like
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Speaker 2: or maybe a leather jacket in the backpack. No, what
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Speaker 2: are you seemingly asking or saying?
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Speaker 3: Stop? Stop? Stop? You can't breathe? What do you say
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Speaker 3: when you look at this video, Deputy Chapman.
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Speaker 6: It's interesting that you have three individuals of doing one
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Speaker 6: and two of them are clearly were not detained or
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Speaker 6: questioned by the police to find out exactly what their
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Speaker 6: perspective on the incident was. Would you could deduce from
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Speaker 6: that that mister Neely was putting up quite a bit
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Speaker 6: of resistance or was in the process of threatening, although
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Speaker 6: that we don't have any information that says he physically
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Speaker 6: attacked anyone which would justify the use of the physical
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Speaker 6: courts against him.
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Speaker 2: Guys, let's hear more from our friends at Pigs eleven.
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Speaker 10: The suspects lawyers told us in a statement quote, when
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Speaker 10: mister Penny, a decorated marine veteran, stepped in to protect
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Speaker 10: himself and fellow New Yorkers, his well being was not assured.
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Speaker 10: He risked his own life and safety for the good
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Speaker 10: of his fellow passengers. The unfortunate result was the unintended
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Speaker 10: and unforeseen death of mister Neely. We're confident once the
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Speaker 10: facts are out, mister Penny will be fully absolved of
15:06
Speaker 10: any wrongdoing.
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Speaker 2: We know that choke hold went on for two minutes
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Speaker 2: and five seconds, which is exactly what doctor Bill Smartt
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Speaker 2: was describing. Now we've just heard about Daniel Penny's background.
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Speaker 2: I understand he's a decorated marine veteran Jamin Fisher.
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Speaker 3: Why was he decorated?
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Speaker 5: You know, he had done one tour in the Marine Corps.
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Speaker 5: He was overseas and he did a tour you know,
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Speaker 5: you know, right in the Marines. I think it was
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Speaker 5: for let me see National Defense Service Medal Global War
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Speaker 5: on Terrorism, and he got the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal.
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Speaker 2: I thought he was deployed twice, but I'll find that
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Speaker 2: out right now. Okay, that's what we know about him,
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Speaker 2: Jane and Fish, Sure, what do we know about the deceased?
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Speaker 2: Jordan Neely? Taken a listen to Anthony Delrenzo.
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Speaker 10: Neely, who was homeless and suffering from mental illness, was
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Speaker 10: allegedly agitating fellow writers on May first. That's when Penny
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Speaker 10: took him to the floor for as long as fifteen minutes.
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Speaker 10: Thirty year old's death was caught on camera, raising an
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Speaker 10: uproar from the mayor to some police and community activists,
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Speaker 10: though one criminal defense attorney thinks the DA was forced
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Speaker 10: to cave to political pressure.
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Speaker 11: This is a political hot potato. There are people on
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Speaker 11: both sides of this that are upset about what's going
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Speaker 11: on here. And the obvious solution here was to present
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Speaker 11: it to a grand jury, present all of it, every witness,
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Speaker 11: every possible charge, including justification, invite mister Penny to testify,
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Speaker 11: and instead they've just charged him, which you know at
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Speaker 11: this point, Alvin Bragg owns this.
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Speaker 2: Let me understand, then, what happened And to Jaden Fisher,
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Speaker 2: did this go to a grand jury?
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Speaker 5: Not yet, It has not gone to a grand jury yet.
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Speaker 3: Haven't charges come down?
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Speaker 5: Yes, they arrested him on charges. That's correct.
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Speaker 3: Okay, guys, take a listen to Derek Waller.
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Speaker 4: Police say the man who was killed actually had forty
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Speaker 4: four prior arrests and in fact was potentially harassing people
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Speaker 4: at the time of his death.
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Speaker 3: And we can show you this map.
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Speaker 4: It happened Monday afternoon here at the Broadway Lofaiette subway
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Speaker 4: station with service for the BDF and m trained.
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Speaker 12: Neelie was a subway performer. He also had a history
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Speaker 12: of mental illness. According to witnesses, the day of his death,
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Speaker 12: Neelie was acting erradically and harassing passengers when police got
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Speaker 12: the initial nine to one one call. Video shows a
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Speaker 12: twenty four year old Marine veteran holding Neely in a
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Speaker 12: chokehold while other subway writers restrained him before he died.
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Speaker 12: Police did question the marine being seen in the video
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Speaker 12: and released him without charges.
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Speaker 2: So when police questioned Penny, they decide to release him
18:06
Speaker 2: without charges.
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Speaker 3: So what more do we know.
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Speaker 2: About Daniel Penny? What can we Uncover. Take a listen
18:13
Speaker 2: to our friends at crime online dot com.
18:15
Speaker 9: Daniel Penny grew up in a middle class family as
18:18
Speaker 9: the only boy in a family of girls. Penny and
18:21
Speaker 9: his three sisters grew up in a three bedroom house
18:23
Speaker 9: in Westslip on Long Island. Childhood friends say the Penny
18:26
Speaker 9: household had an open door policy, welcoming all the boys
18:30
Speaker 9: played basketball and hung out at the mall. Penny was
18:33
Speaker 9: a star lacrosse player at West Dislip High School. In
18:35
Speaker 9: twenty fifteen, he earned an MVP award during the annual
18:39
Speaker 9: dan Daily Cup competition. Right after graduation, Penny joined the Marines.
18:43
Speaker 9: He served for four years, deployed twice, and rose to
18:46
Speaker 9: the rank of sergeant. Penny was honorably discharged in twenty
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Speaker 9: twenty one.
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Speaker 2: You know one thing I don't want to hear to
18:53
Speaker 2: doctor John delatorrensed psychologist and mediator specializing in forensic psychology,
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Speaker 2: and you can find him at doctor John Delatory, Doctor Delatory.
19:04
Speaker 2: What I don't want to hear in an investigation, a
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Speaker 2: criminal investigation are the two words political, hot potato.
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Speaker 3: I guess that's three.
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Speaker 2: Words because that has nothing to do with the evidence,
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Speaker 2: does it.
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Speaker 5: No, it's not supposed to.
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Speaker 13: And I think that's the crust of the issue, is
19:20
Speaker 13: that it appears as though there is a lot of
19:23
Speaker 13: politics being played on the ancillary aspects of these things,
19:26
Speaker 13: where it's mental illness, or its veteran issues, whether it's safety,
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Speaker 13: all of these things are forcing of our law enforcement
19:35
Speaker 13: officials to engage in necessary sort of space covering sort
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Speaker 13: of necessary c ya because of the political pressures that
19:45
Speaker 13: are being forced upon them. Our just system is not
19:47
Speaker 13: supposed to be influenced by politics, but very often.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's very disturbing to me Duncan Levin Duncan,
19:54
Speaker 2: former federal prosecutor and managing partner Levin and Associates, is
19:58
Speaker 2: that for some reason the district Attorney Bragg skipped the
20:03
Speaker 2: grand jury.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, something that doesn't happen in every single case, but
20:08
Speaker 8: in this particular case, it's really on the line, and
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Speaker 8: I think he wants to get more evidence before figuring
20:15
Speaker 8: out defendibly how to go on this and what the
20:17
Speaker 8: ultimate charges are. Right now, I think we need.
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Speaker 3: To explain why that's so unusual.
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Speaker 2: You say, it's I never prosecuted a single case ever
20:26
Speaker 2: in two years as a FED, in ten years as
20:30
Speaker 2: a felony prosecutor in superior court never ever prosecuted a
20:36
Speaker 2: case that a grand jury had not handed down a
20:42
Speaker 2: true bill. I didn't just go, hey, Jackie, I think
20:45
Speaker 2: you committed a crime. I'm just gonna get my pen
20:48
Speaker 2: and paper and I'm drawing up in a diamond and
20:50
Speaker 2: then I'm going to prosecute you.
20:51
Speaker 3: That never happened.
20:54
Speaker 2: And I'm curious why the district attorney chose not to
21:00
Speaker 2: take this to a group in a grand jury for
21:04
Speaker 2: them to decide if there should be a formal charge.
21:07
Speaker 3: Does that bother anybody other than me?
21:10
Speaker 2: I mean, regardless of what a grand jury would have
21:12
Speaker 2: done and died or no indict why skip a procedural
21:17
Speaker 2: step and prosecuting this guy.
21:20
Speaker 8: So it's unusual, but it's not unheard of. There are
21:24
Speaker 8: cases that precede this way, like what well, there are
21:27
Speaker 8: cases where they start prosecuting it in the New York
21:30
Speaker 8: City Criminal Court and let it depend. There not enough
21:35
Speaker 8: grand jury space for everything. That's not the case with
21:37
Speaker 8: this case is the high profile case.
21:39
Speaker 2: I mean, can you name one case, Duncan you say
21:42
Speaker 2: that it happened?
21:43
Speaker 3: When did it happen?
21:43
Speaker 8: It happened in more routine cases regularly because people are
21:48
Speaker 8: arrested on felony complaints that it's not enough time to
21:51
Speaker 8: get grand jury time to have everything indicted.
21:54
Speaker 3: On a homicide case. Have you seen it happen on
21:56
Speaker 3: a homicide case.
21:57
Speaker 8: I think it happens on probably a majority of homicide
22:00
Speaker 8: cases in New York City.
22:02
Speaker 3: Can you name one?
22:03
Speaker 8: Well, I'm not in criminal court every day, but I
22:06
Speaker 8: bet if you sat there enough of the day, you'd
22:08
Speaker 8: see homicide cases come through that have not been indicted.
22:12
Speaker 8: Usually cases are indicted before there's an arrest and then
22:15
Speaker 8: they arrest them, or if there's an arrest, they're indicted
22:18
Speaker 8: at some point after the arrest. So it's not usual
22:21
Speaker 8: in New York City criminal court to have a case proceed.
22:24
Speaker 2: In your expertise as a former federal prosecutor, did you
22:28
Speaker 2: prosecute cases without a grand jury indictment.
22:30
Speaker 8: I was the New York State prosecutor at the Manhattan
22:32
Speaker 8: Diey's Office for many years as well, and I arranged
22:35
Speaker 8: tons of murder cases that came through that had not
22:38
Speaker 8: been indicted yet, So it's not that unusual per se.
22:42
Speaker 2: Can you remember any particular one like a name? No,
22:45
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking through why in a homicide case, and
22:49
Speaker 2: a homicide case.
22:50
Speaker 3: That has garnered this much attention.
22:52
Speaker 2: Just to top it off, did the elected DA choose
22:57
Speaker 2: not to use a grand jury? I find that very
23:00
Speaker 2: very disturbing. But that said, now we find out more
23:05
Speaker 2: about the case, it all seemingly hinges on what the
23:07
Speaker 2: medical examiner says. Take a listener, friends at ABC seven
23:11
Speaker 2: key here now is emy's reporting.
23:13
Speaker 14: Former NYPD Chief of Detectives Robert Boyce says, the twenty
23:16
Speaker 14: four year old man who subdued him may have indeed
23:19
Speaker 14: been defending himself and others, but there are other factors.
23:23
Speaker 15: How long was the actual holt was in that compression
23:27
Speaker 15: that's going to be was he screaming to let me go?
23:28
Speaker 15: Let me go? Hold these things?
23:30
Speaker 5: A well?
23:30
Speaker 14: Into that determination, a determination of whether or not he
23:33
Speaker 14: made the right call which ended up costing someone's life.
23:36
Speaker 15: The safest thing that it was cold nine one one
23:38
Speaker 15: if you can down there or find it officer nearby. However,
23:41
Speaker 15: save that those two instances, if there's an immediate need
23:45
Speaker 15: to help someone, you do it.
23:46
Speaker 3: I mean, that's heroic, but that's really scary. On the
23:48
Speaker 3: same part, like you cannot just jump in and.
23:50
Speaker 13: Be a good Smaritan, because good, smartians often wind up
23:53
Speaker 13: being hurt themselves.
23:54
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just trying to take in what I'm hearing.
23:58
Speaker 2: Did he actually say the safest thing to do is
24:02
Speaker 2: call nine one one to Wilbur Chapman.
24:06
Speaker 3: Is he serious?
24:08
Speaker 2: You're on the subway, you feel threatened, call nine one one.
24:14
Speaker 2: NIM one can't get there. The transit authority is not
24:17
Speaker 2: going to do anything. That's their procedure. They're not going
24:21
Speaker 2: to help. So why did he even say called nine
24:25
Speaker 2: one one?
24:25
Speaker 6: That's a question for retired chief boys. I don't quite
24:29
Speaker 6: understand that. If there's imminent need to prevent someone from
24:34
Speaker 6: being harmed and you're taking that appropriate action, of course
24:38
Speaker 6: there's going to be consequences for it if as there
24:40
Speaker 6: are in this particular case, But certainly the protection of
24:44
Speaker 6: life is a lot greater than the need to call
24:47
Speaker 6: nine one one. There are certain problems with communications underground,
24:51
Speaker 6: with police deployment, and the amount of time it takes
24:54
Speaker 6: for someone to rescue you. You've been talking about people's
24:57
Speaker 6: family members. My family members were in danger, I would
25:01
Speaker 6: certainly take action and then worry about what the consequences
25:04
Speaker 6: are later. This is probably what's happened in this case,
25:08
Speaker 6: it's a perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances. Mister Neely should
25:14
Speaker 6: not have been out in the subway. The system fails him,
25:18
Speaker 6: and now mister Penny takes action as a result of
25:20
Speaker 6: that is an unfortunate death for which he must be charged.
25:24
Speaker 6: So really there's no winners in this, and certainly the
25:26
Speaker 6: cooling nine to one one, it might have exacerbated the
25:29
Speaker 6: situation and you might have had more loss of life,
25:32
Speaker 6: or possibly the people who were who were felt that
25:36
Speaker 6: they were in danger might have actually been in danger.
25:39
Speaker 2: You know. To Janen Fisher joining us from New York
25:41
Speaker 2: Daily Needs dot com, I noticed that the Wall Street
25:45
Speaker 2: Journal referred to Neely as a quote obviously deranged man.
25:50
Speaker 3: Let me get their exact wording.
25:52
Speaker 2: When Daniel Penny stepped forward on a New York subway
25:55
Speaker 2: to protect his fellow commuters from an obviously deranged man,
25:59
Speaker 2: the former marine sergeant could not have imagined two weeks
26:02
Speaker 2: later he would be pert walk in handcuffs outside the
26:06
Speaker 2: fifth Precinct. Why are they saying he's an obviously deranged man.
26:11
Speaker 5: Jordan Nearly had a history of mental illness. He was schizophrenic.
26:15
Speaker 5: His dad said that he had autism. You know, he
26:20
Speaker 5: had led a rather tragic lace. His mother was strangled
26:26
Speaker 5: to death to death by her boyfriend in two thousand
26:30
Speaker 5: and seven, when Jordan was I think fourteen years old.
26:34
Speaker 5: The boyfriend put his mother in a suecase and left
26:38
Speaker 5: her on the Henry Hudson Parkway and continued to live with.
26:43
Speaker 5: Jordan testified against the boyfriend in the trial, you know,
26:49
Speaker 5: the criminal trial.
26:50
Speaker 2: Ag I'm saying, why is he now obviously deranged? According
26:55
Speaker 2: to the Wall Street Journal, What was he doing that
26:58
Speaker 2: made him look obviously direct changed?
27:00
Speaker 3: Or was he well?
27:02
Speaker 5: On the subway appears witnesses have said that he you know,
27:06
Speaker 5: that he was threatening, that he was throwing garbage, that
27:10
Speaker 5: he was erratic, unruly, that you know that he people
27:16
Speaker 5: felt reported they felt threatened, they felt scared. Uh you know,
27:20
Speaker 5: a woman motioned to her waistband and said that he
27:23
Speaker 5: had a gun. That these were reports that the MTA
27:26
Speaker 5: received about what was going on in the subway card.
27:29
Speaker 2: I wonder too, Doctor John Delatory, psychologists specializing in forensic psychology,
27:37
Speaker 2: if there is a mindset that people are already afraid,
27:41
Speaker 2: they're already afraid of crime, They're afraid of what's going
27:46
Speaker 2: to happen to their families, to their children, to themselves.
27:49
Speaker 2: I mean, who's going to raise their children if they
27:51
Speaker 2: get killed on the subway. So they're in a climate
27:55
Speaker 2: of fear to start with, and then when neally erratically
28:02
Speaker 2: they feel in danger. I mean maybe somewhere somewhere else,
28:08
Speaker 2: citizens wouldn't be it wouldn't live in the climate of fear.
28:12
Speaker 2: They wouldn't be afraid they're gonna die. But trapped in
28:16
Speaker 2: a subway car dozens of feet below the surface, there's
28:20
Speaker 2: nobody to call, and if you did, they wouldn't come anyway.
28:22
Speaker 5: I do not find that unreasonable, Nancy.
28:25
Speaker 16: I have one hundred percent.
28:26
Speaker 9: Agree with everything that you're seeing.
28:28
Speaker 13: Society right now is feeding on fear and commoditizing anger,
28:34
Speaker 13: and so that when someone is acting out of their
28:37
Speaker 13: mind right and I have no idea what deranged means.
28:41
Speaker 13: I mean, I know technically it means mentally unsounded. I
28:43
Speaker 13: have no idea what the Wall Street Journal is trying
28:46
Speaker 13: to imply by saying what.
28:48
Speaker 5: Is going on with Jordan Neely?
28:50
Speaker 16: Homelessness, probably drug use, untreated mental illness. These are all
28:54
Speaker 16: things that people just aren't used to seeing. And because
28:58
Speaker 16: of that they otherwise, they stigmatize that individual as being
29:02
Speaker 16: dangerous when the reality is they're simply.
29:05
Speaker 5: Asking for help.
29:06
Speaker 2: I don't know was he dangerous, because in my mind,
29:08
Speaker 2: it's not what the medical examiner says that's going to
29:12
Speaker 2: turn this case. It's was nearly a threat. Did the
29:19
Speaker 2: people sitting around him feel threatened? And that is why
29:22
Speaker 2: I brought up these other two guys. They weren't trying
29:25
Speaker 2: to drag Daniel Penny off Neely. They were trying to
29:29
Speaker 2: help Penny subdue Neely. And that tells me a lot.
29:33
Speaker 2: It's not just Penny taking action against Neely. Does that
29:38
Speaker 2: make it right?
29:39
Speaker 3: I don't know.
29:39
Speaker 2: Does it make it wrong? I would have to find
29:41
Speaker 2: out exactly what.
29:42
Speaker 3: Neelie was doing. Did he pose a threat?
29:46
Speaker 2: Well, take a listen to Penny's lawyer speaking with our
29:50
Speaker 2: friends at the five in our cut twenty three.
29:53
Speaker 17: Well, the mindset is pretty simple. He was fearful for
29:57
Speaker 17: the safety of those passengers when he acted. His mindset
30:01
Speaker 17: was to keep his fellow pastors safe from attack. Nearly
30:06
Speaker 17: entering the train and acting in a very violent manner, both.
30:11
Speaker 3: Physically and with words.
30:12
Speaker 17: He would say things to the effect that you know
30:16
Speaker 17: I need certain things. I need food, I need this
30:18
Speaker 17: or that, and if I don't get it, I don't
30:19
Speaker 17: care if I go to prison for the rest of
30:21
Speaker 17: my life.
30:21
Speaker 3: And the passengers.
30:22
Speaker 17: Actually have said that they interpreted that mean, well, when
30:26
Speaker 17: would you go to prison for the rest of your
30:27
Speaker 17: life if you kill somebody? So everybody got the message.
30:31
Speaker 17: There was a period of time where the situation kind
30:34
Speaker 17: of developed, so, you know, a period of time to
30:36
Speaker 17: be able to observe mister Neely, you know, swinging his
30:40
Speaker 17: arms at passengers, throwing his jacket down, making threats.
30:46
Speaker 2: Okay, when does that rise to a level of threatening.
31:04
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
31:10
Speaker 3: To Duncan Levin joining us, what about it?
31:13
Speaker 8: Duncan, Yeah, I think he's got a very good case
31:16
Speaker 8: that adrives us to the level. And that is why
31:19
Speaker 8: I think that DA is taking its time and figuring
31:22
Speaker 8: out exactly how best to put this case together, because
31:25
Speaker 8: the law itself in New York says that it's killing itself.
31:28
Speaker 8: Defense is legally permitted when an attack opposes an imminent
31:32
Speaker 8: threat of physical harm or death. And so I think
31:35
Speaker 8: that there is enough there that he has a defense
31:38
Speaker 8: to this, because he'll say there was nowhere else I
31:41
Speaker 8: could go. There was nowhere to retreat. I was in
31:43
Speaker 8: a subway car. And look, it wasn't just me, it
31:47
Speaker 8: was other people joining into Everyone there thought there was
31:50
Speaker 8: an imminent threat that he was going to kill us.
31:52
Speaker 8: All so that that is the case, and that is
31:55
Speaker 8: his defense. And so you know, it's going to require
31:58
Speaker 8: eyewitness testimony, and they believe me, they're going to have
32:01
Speaker 8: everyone in that car testifying one way or the other
32:04
Speaker 8: about whether there was a threat of harm.
32:06
Speaker 3: Back to Jane and Fisher joining us.
32:08
Speaker 2: Investigative reporter with the New York Daily needs Jane, and again,
32:12
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.
32:13
Speaker 3: What are the other passengers saying, you know, the.
32:16
Speaker 5: Other passengers, you know, it said that he had a gun,
32:20
Speaker 5: he had a knife. They said he was acting erratically.
32:23
Speaker 5: They said he was throwing garbage.
32:25
Speaker 18: You know.
32:25
Speaker 5: One of the passengers said that he had thrown his
32:28
Speaker 5: Michael Jackson jacket on the ground. You know, he you know,
32:33
Speaker 5: he said that you know, he was hungry, he needed footy,
32:36
Speaker 5: that he was ready to die, and that was that
32:40
Speaker 5: is all that we really understand about what he said
32:44
Speaker 5: on the train and what he.
32:45
Speaker 2: Did that so far is not rising in my mind
32:50
Speaker 2: so far is not rising to a level of a
32:54
Speaker 2: dangerous threat. But on the other hand, guys, we're not
32:58
Speaker 2: on the subway. We don't know if he was menacing
33:01
Speaker 2: toward women or moms or children. We have no idea
33:05
Speaker 2: what happened.
33:06
Speaker 3: And I do know.
33:08
Speaker 2: Isn't this correct to Jamie Fisher that one of the
33:12
Speaker 2: passengers actually stepped forward and thanked Penny.
33:15
Speaker 5: There are some reports that a woman that was on
33:18
Speaker 5: the train had wanted to thank him for his action.
33:22
Speaker 5: That I not confirm that myself, but I had read
33:26
Speaker 5: that report.
33:27
Speaker 2: We do know that police for some reason are not
33:32
Speaker 2: giving the substantiation that will be required in this case,
33:38
Speaker 2: the details leading up to the choke hold. I'm curious
33:43
Speaker 2: what you make of that, Wilbert Chapman, former commissioner, former
33:47
Speaker 2: deputy commissioner, that people on the train actually thanked neally.
33:51
Speaker 6: Well like of the thin possibility, because the level of
33:54
Speaker 6: crime on the subway has certainly risen, and with that
33:58
Speaker 6: you would have the rise and fear of passengers who
34:03
Speaker 6: are on the subway, and a concern about the fact
34:05
Speaker 6: that there are large numbers of homeless and mentally unstable
34:08
Speaker 6: people who use the subways because they don't use the shelters.
34:13
Speaker 6: As far as the police statement is concerned, it's incumbent
34:16
Speaker 6: to final of responding police to take in depth statements
34:20
Speaker 6: to be submitted as part of the investigation to determine
34:25
Speaker 6: is their culpability on the part of misdepending or exactly,
34:28
Speaker 6: more and more importantly, exactly what happened. What were the circumstances.
34:32
Speaker 6: There are reports of knives and guns, where any found
34:35
Speaker 6: and what made those individuals who thought they were there
34:38
Speaker 6: were weapons involved, or that that mister Neely had weapons?
34:43
Speaker 6: What made them think that? And does that does that
34:48
Speaker 6: lead to a factual accounting of what they observed or
34:51
Speaker 6: just an emotional reaction. Because the fear that's caused by
34:55
Speaker 6: the environment being trapped in the subway trains with someone
34:57
Speaker 6: who you know is unpredictable or you were assume is
35:00
Speaker 6: unpredictable in their behavior.
35:02
Speaker 2: That's really important in the fact that you just said unpredictable, unstable,
35:06
Speaker 2: because when someone begins to act erradically, you fear the worst,
35:10
Speaker 2: especially when you're protecting your children. You don't know what
35:13
Speaker 2: they're going to do next, and that fear fact or
35:16
Speaker 2: the reality that it is unpredictable and the person is unstable,
35:22
Speaker 2: they can do anything. I'm still hung up on the
35:27
Speaker 2: fact that two other men helped subdue Neally. They weren't
35:32
Speaker 2: trying to drag Penny off, for instance.
35:36
Speaker 3: We see in other cases where the crowd.
35:39
Speaker 2: Is saying stop, he's choking, he can't breathe get off him.
35:43
Speaker 2: In this case people are actually thinking neally and helping him.
35:49
Speaker 3: So helping Penny.
35:51
Speaker 2: I'm trying to sort out the facts and we're not
35:55
Speaker 2: getting them. And that's further clouded by the fact that
35:58
Speaker 2: there was no grandjury process.
36:00
Speaker 3: The prosecutor skipped what.
36:02
Speaker 2: Many people, including myself, considered to be a very important.
36:05
Speaker 3: Part of justice.
36:07
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut twenty four. Our friends
36:10
Speaker 2: at the five Well.
36:11
Speaker 17: We were told that there was going to be a
36:15
Speaker 17: grand jury presentation and then that would take some time,
36:18
Speaker 17: and it was going to be a very kind of
36:19
Speaker 17: a deliberate process. It was not going to be rushed.
36:24
Speaker 17: Then suddenly we got a call one night before Daniels
36:29
Speaker 17: asked to surrender and said he's got to surrender to
36:32
Speaker 17: the police department tomorrow. So at that point, where what
36:36
Speaker 17: do you mean tomorrow? This was going to be a
36:38
Speaker 17: long process.
36:39
Speaker 2: Suddenly it's tomorrow, so everything was rushed, no grand jury proceeding.
36:44
Speaker 2: Was a hastily drawn indictment that said there are formal
36:50
Speaker 2: charges and it unfolds from there. Take listen to our
36:54
Speaker 2: friends and our cut thirteen CBS two.
36:56
Speaker 18: Just as expected, Daniel Penny turning himself into police here
37:00
Speaker 18: at the fifth printcinc. Now he was charged with a
37:02
Speaker 18: second degree manslaughter charge. District Attorney Alvin Bragg announcing that yesterday,
37:07
Speaker 18: now take a look. This is video of Penny walking
37:10
Speaker 18: inside of the precinct. He went in, he came back out,
37:13
Speaker 18: headed to the Manhattan Criminal Court where bail will be
37:16
Speaker 18: decided if it will be a set or not. And
37:17
Speaker 18: his attorney says Penny turning himself in voluntarily.
37:21
Speaker 19: An attorney for Daniel Penny, the man charged with second
37:24
Speaker 19: degree manslaughter on the subway death of Jordan Neely, maintained
37:27
Speaker 19: his client's innocence after he turned himself in at the
37:31
Speaker 19: NYPD's fifth Precinct Friday morning, dealing.
37:36
Speaker 10: With the situation, like I said, with a sort of
37:38
Speaker 10: integrity and honor, that his characteristic who he is characteristic
37:42
Speaker 10: is honorable service in the United.
37:43
Speaker 3: States, pree Corps and hes pedals had held out.
37:48
Speaker 19: The twenty four year old Long Island veteran walked out
37:50
Speaker 19: in handcuffs just over two hours later and was arraigned
37:54
Speaker 19: at the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse. He was released on one
37:57
Speaker 19: hundred thousand dollars bail.
37:59
Speaker 3: What is the truth?
38:01
Speaker 2: Even amongst us experts here, we can't come to a
38:05
Speaker 2: consensus because we don't know the facts. But I can
38:09
Speaker 2: tell you this self defense, if proven at trial, is
38:14
Speaker 2: a complete defense, as is defense of a third party,
38:20
Speaker 2: defense of another.
38:22
Speaker 3: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,