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Are World Titles Starting To Mean Less (to Boxers)... · Big Dog Lukie Boxing Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_02: With my good buddy, Lucas Ketelle at Big Dog Lukie on YouTube.
0:05
SPEAKER_02: It's been a while, Lukie.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: It's been a few weeks,
0:08
SPEAKER_02: you know, every so often in people's personal lives, things take precedence.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: And I had to step away from social media and even my channel for a couple of weeks.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: But it's great to be back here with you on a Thursday night talking about
0:20
SPEAKER_02: the sport we love so much, the sport of boxing, Lukie.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: I thought that we would talk about something that's kind of been on my mind
0:27
SPEAKER_02: and it's been in our news media.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: And the subject of today's show is do titles,
0:35
SPEAKER_02: are the world titles in boxing becoming more irrelevant to boxing stars,
0:40
SPEAKER_02: to boxers this week?
0:43
SPEAKER_02: There was some back and forth news.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting conflicting reports,
0:46
SPEAKER_02: but for the most part,
0:48
SPEAKER_02: recently upgraded WBO middleweight champion because he was recently updated,
0:53
SPEAKER_02: upgraded.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: Denzel Bentley had a situation where, you know, he was going to face one of the boogeymen.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: You know,
1:04
SPEAKER_02: people were perceiving him as the boogeyman of the middleweight division,
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Yoenly Hernandez.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: And it went to purse bid.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: For a measly $200,000,
1:16
SPEAKER_02: and for whatever reason,
1:18
SPEAKER_02: financially most likely,
1:19
SPEAKER_02: he said he must think that's not enough money to face He's a dangerous opponent,
1:25
SPEAKER_02: whatever people want to call it,
1:26
SPEAKER_02: all the boxing fans want to say, it's a duck move, this, is it a duck move?
1:32
SPEAKER_02: But he had a different offer from Zufa Boxing that made a lot more financial sense.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: So as of yesterday,
1:40
SPEAKER_02: I thought I had read that he had vacated his title,
1:44
SPEAKER_02: recently upgraded title, in pursuit of something far more financially lucrative.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: But he's not the only person to do it.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: Now, Regarding Denzel Bentley, I'm seeing that perhaps he's working something out with the WBO.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want to give it up.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: We're going to find out.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: Maybe he's not officially relinquished.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: He'd like to work out something, a mandatory defense, somebody who's not so dangerous.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: And he'd also probably like to entertain moving to Zufo.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: But here's the list of professional boxers this year, and it's becoming alarming.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: That have given up their titles.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: Some of them very recently.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Hamza Shiraz becomes a super middleweight title holder.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: Just recently gave that up instead.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: Jayopataya being the IBF champion, he took that risk of becoming one of Zufa's big signees.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: And he was basically stripped of it.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Noel McLean, who he just fought.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: The WBC didn't sanction his fight, and he said, well, the hell with that.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: I'd like to fight on Zufa.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: It's more money than Don King has been providing me.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: What a Alexander Usyk.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: Alexander Usyk decided he'd give up all his titles so he can chase
3:00
SPEAKER_02: the fights pre-retirement that he would like to instead
3:03
SPEAKER_02: of defending all his mandatory undisputed titles.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: He said the hell with that.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: I would rather fight who I want to fight.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: So those are just a few of the names, big names this year, Lukie.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: And let's get Lukie's input.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Are these titles starting to mean less and less to the current crop of boxing stars?
3:23
SPEAKER_01: So the guide the lukie here, guide the lukie.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Are we going to go philosophical here?
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Are we going to look at the cause possibly of what's happening?
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Because I want to touch on both.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: But where are we starting?
3:37
SPEAKER_02: Let's start.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: I'll let you pick.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to touch on both of them.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Philosophical.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Start with philosophical.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: So the philosophical element here.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I'm Lukie.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm a guest on this show, even though it's on my channel.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: One of the most underrated people is Dave and he has an amazing talent.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: And this is just great.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to introduce myself and not be rude in case no one knew who I was.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: The philosophical argument here.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Is we're starting to wonder what is the point of a title in a generation
4:15
SPEAKER_01: where people are valuing fame,
4:18
SPEAKER_01: currency,
4:20
SPEAKER_01: social media followers and legacy is going to the back burner
4:24
SPEAKER_01: because I think what you also left out.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: That was Devin Haney doesn't have a scheduled fight off
4:30
SPEAKER_01: of coming off his arguably most impressive career resurrecting win.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: Shakur Stevenson's fight just seems to be getting kicked down the road and he was
4:40
SPEAKER_01: a fighter who fought in January that I think Many of us thought this was going
4:43
SPEAKER_01: to be his year to win fighter of the year,
4:45
SPEAKER_01: and he's probably the most talented fighter in boxing,
4:48
SPEAKER_01: yet things aren't quite lining up the way I think all of us expected for his career.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: It feels like it's not just the belts that are in jeopardy.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: But it's also a generation that isn't prioritizing maybe let's get in there,
5:03
SPEAKER_01: the best fight the best.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: And we'll talk to causation,
5:06
SPEAKER_01: but I also think there's an interesting element to this where
5:09
SPEAKER_01: the sanctioning bodies have kind of done it to themselves.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And I was talking to a good buddy today.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Before I did what I do.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about the Muriak-Gasiev situation,
5:19
SPEAKER_01: which is just boxing, the sanctioning buys in a nutshell.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: You have Gasiev fight for the vacant WBA title.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: For the life of me, I can't figure out why Gasiev was in that position, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Because he had lost to Otto Wallin and he had kind
5:33
SPEAKER_01: of fought hand-selected opposition, but he wins the belt.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: And now essentially Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua is going to be for
5:40
SPEAKER_01: a better version of the belt that he just won.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: So why did he even fight for that belt?
5:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like a self-inflicted wound where if you want to question
5:49
SPEAKER_01: the sanctioning bodies,
5:49
SPEAKER_01: you can always look at things like And I think what's happening is,
5:54
SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to get to a little bit of the causation is Zufa has entered and
5:59
SPEAKER_01: the looming feeling is at some point they're going to introduce their own belts
6:03
SPEAKER_01: if legislation passes and they want to be their own world.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's making people question questions.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: What is the importance of these belts?
6:13
SPEAKER_01: Is financial security more important than these belts?
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Is getting fights that are more scintillating more important?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: The belt alone used to be leveraged for power for main event fights,
6:24
SPEAKER_01: for networks that they wanted the belts.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: And it used to bring a lot of things.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: But now it seems like fame alone presents people belts.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: I propose to you,
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Edgar Berlanga has not won a belt,
6:35
SPEAKER_01: but he's not going to not fight in a main event spot.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: So I think philosophically,
6:41
SPEAKER_01: we're at a point where younger fighters are looking at what is the reason to be
6:49
SPEAKER_01: a champion like they want to be.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: I need to fight for belts.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Belts should accommodate me at that point.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: A fan in the chat, by the way, says WBA actually eliminated their regular belt at heavyweight.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: But some guy whose name I forgot had litigation with the WA
7:10
SPEAKER_01: to get his regular back belt back in one.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just a mess.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: And I think what it is is.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: We're now entering a philosophical argument of what is a belt where a belt used
7:22
SPEAKER_01: to be sanctity, respect, legacy, and define some level of achievement.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think people are questioning that.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure how much you paid attention this weekend, Lukie, to this Misfits Boxing card.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: I believe it was Misfits Boxing,
7:42
SPEAKER_02: but there was a kid actor who was very successful in acting, Juana Walton.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: Walton.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: And I bring that case up because I had been following his story when Jake Paul signed him.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: And I thought this is the perfect opportunity for Jake Paul to find
7:59
SPEAKER_02: the next Ryan Garcia and manufacture a star.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And on paper.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: His credentials in amateur boxing looked fantastic,
8:07
SPEAKER_02: as well as being a proven commodity in Hollywood, you know, already a child actor.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: And I thought this is the perfect kid to manufacture into a star.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: But rather than go that traditional route,
8:20
SPEAKER_02: like, say, Dylan Capetillo of Las Vegas, who we recently saw.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: Lose it by knockout in a Golden Boy fight.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: He's been signed a Golden Boy.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Rather than go that route,
8:30
SPEAKER_02: he chose to go that other route,
8:32
SPEAKER_02: the route that other fighters are now taking,
8:37
SPEAKER_02: that not mainstream, but the crossover fights, the crossover misfits thing.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, oh, that's kind of strange.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: And even worse was that he lost that.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: So are these young fighters...
8:51
SPEAKER_02: Looking at those other viable options of stardom and looking at that as like,
8:56
SPEAKER_02: hey, I don't need a title.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I can get a misfits title and I'll still get the fame and the money,
9:02
SPEAKER_02: you know, that the traditional boxing route fighters would get.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: I think you're on to something, but I think there's also something.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Two to three years ago,
9:11
SPEAKER_01: we used to have ESPN top rank cards that were heavy with developmental undercards.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: It felt like Golden Boy was running more shows with developmental undercards.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
9:22
SPEAKER_01: regional cards, I mean,
9:24
SPEAKER_01: CES Boxing still does a fantastic job in the Northeast,
9:27
SPEAKER_01: but that felt like there were more regional shows that developed young guys.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Quite frankly, period,
9:32
SPEAKER_01: there's just not enough shows currently for the amount of fighters
9:36
SPEAKER_01: that have aspirations and dreams of fighting on big TV cards.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And because of that, I...
9:42
SPEAKER_01: I think some guys are getting creative where they're like,
9:45
SPEAKER_01: okay, it's maybe not the perfect situation.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: In Walton's situation,
9:48
SPEAKER_01: I think he took a fight with a former MMA champion who has some appeal to people.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And it was a last minute notice because it was the streamer guy who does the videos
9:57
SPEAKER_01: with Broner for whatever reason couldn't fight.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: So he filled in for that fight and it was probably lucrative and whatever.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a combination of the money along
10:09
SPEAKER_01: with there's just simply not enough fight dates.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, How many fights do we have in America this month?
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Big moments.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: I know we're on our second card in a row that's UK only.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Two weekends in a row, no US audience.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: Next week we get Floyd Schofield, Lucas Boddy.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: That's a big fight.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: That's in Chicago.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully that gets the big fight feels.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And then I think we end the month with some good fights and hopefully we get Canelo
10:34
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the month.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: I do think that part of the issue is there's just not enough fights for guys.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: When you talk to these managers, they're saying, how do you build a fighter right now?
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Because even on a regional level, there's not enough shows.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: I think that In that instance, it could be that.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: But I also think young fighters and in Walton's instance,
10:59
SPEAKER_01: I think he has more legacy ambitions than people give him credit.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: I think the issue is where do guys who are five and six and oh go right now?
11:11
SPEAKER_01: Because it feels like like one of my favorite guys is Joel Erarte.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: He's a welterweight from Bakersfield.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: I think that you're probably familiar with him.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Real good fighter welterweight.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: And You know, it doesn't seem like we see him all that often.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And he's a young guy and he's in these developmental fights.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: And it felt like Abdullah Mason, Jared Anderson, Andrew Zayas, we just saw them a lot.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: When they were young fighters, they were back every two, three months.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: We formed strong opinions about them.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: And it feels like the young up-and-comers,
11:38
SPEAKER_01: the Yuto Sakai's,
11:39
SPEAKER_01: the Troy Nash's, the Joel Irartes, the Pramil Maltons, they're too inactive.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And then when guys fall too far behind, you might find a creative solution if the
11:58
SPEAKER_02: Lukie, I lost you for just a second.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if you're speaking.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: But I would say to that,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
12:04
SPEAKER_02: even the young prospects slash contenders,
12:07
SPEAKER_02: I just was reading something today that Angelo Leo,
12:10
SPEAKER_02: who trains here in Las Vegas,
12:12
SPEAKER_02: featherweight champion, he's been inactive for over a year.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: It's like I forgot it's been how long since Angelo Leo won his title.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: And he's been sitting on the shelf as a champion for over a year.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: So there's got to be something to be fair.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: He had a Raiz Aleem fight scheduled and Aleem missed weight.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: So he did have a scheduled bout.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: His opponent just missed weight.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: I recently forgot about that.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: How recent was that?
12:38
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty recent, right?
12:40
SPEAKER_01: That was in May.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: So he had a fight scheduled in Atlanta.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Rye's missed weight.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: And then that led to Atif Olberton being the main event and having a spectacular performance.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: But when you bring up Leo,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: it is important for people to know that he did have a scheduled fight.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: His opponent missed weight.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And then it looks like he's being targeted to return this.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: Indeed.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: Indeed.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: So what do you... Now we can move on to the cause.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: These belts are becoming more watered down.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: You mentioned that ZUFA pending legislation by Congress and Senate.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: That could be the fifth belt added if things go their way,
13:20
SPEAKER_02: watering down world titles even further.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: The Ring Magazine used to have a prestigious connotation when people said,
13:29
SPEAKER_02: oh, you're the Ring Lineal Champ.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: The Ring Championship is what really matters.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: And I do want to point out that today there's major breaking news on the sale,
13:39
SPEAKER_02: potential sale again of Ring Magazine over to DAZN.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: So you could theoretically have six world titles that somebody could brag about.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: I've got one of six world titles.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: What is the cause ultimately?
13:55
SPEAKER_01: So Devante Jennings in the chat, saw my boy Lukie live, had to tap in.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: We love that, Devante.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: I think the cause, quite frankly, we're in the succession.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Remember HBO succession?
14:08
SPEAKER_01: I could never really watch it.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: I watched a few episodes.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: We found it very boring.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: But succession,
14:12
SPEAKER_01: we're in the succession era of boxing where everyone's a businessman and look at
14:18
SPEAKER_01: the tactical maneuvers.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is the Zufa influence of boxing is there was legislation
14:23
SPEAKER_01: that was brought up that if it passed.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And that brings up a question of if DAZN were to get ring, right?
14:38
SPEAKER_01: I trust Tris Dixon's reporting.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Tris is a friend.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: He's one of the most respected people in boxing.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: If he says it, I see it as true.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: If DAZN were to get the ring title, that brings up what happens with DAZN.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: First off,
14:53
SPEAKER_01: the independent journalism as someone that,
14:55
SPEAKER_01: you know, I want to see people employed as boxing.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
14:59
SPEAKER_01: What are the shows and content look like?
15:01
SPEAKER_01: But then also, what would it look like if a network had something that could be a title?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And does that start to become that there's a DAZN title?
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And then we have a Zufa title on a rival network where essentially we're going
15:18
SPEAKER_01: to have a system,
15:19
SPEAKER_01: if that were the case,
15:20
SPEAKER_01: which is hypothetical,
15:22
SPEAKER_01: where unification bouts would be impossible or they'd be so fragmented
15:27
SPEAKER_01: because you'd have two differing sides and almost two different universes
15:32
SPEAKER_01: of boxing saying their version of boxing is the best version of boxing.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And my fear is that my fear is that we're going to Promoter run belts
15:44
SPEAKER_01: over sanctioning bodies and those sanctioning bodies aren't the greatest.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: There's a level of independence that sanctioning bodies uphold
15:52
SPEAKER_01: where they're not tied to a promotion or a network.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we might be.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of fans are wondering, can we get a more commercial viable product?
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Because essentially right now we don't have any stars in boxing
16:07
SPEAKER_01: that aren't old fighters that were on HBO and whatever.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Fans are at their wits end of being a boxing fan because they want to see a better product.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: So they're like, okay,
16:18
SPEAKER_01: I probably wouldn't have been a fan of this before,
16:20
SPEAKER_01: but if you can give me a better product,
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm open to try it because what I'm seeing doesn't fit.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: And 2026 has been an awful year for boxing, if we're being honest.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: We've had a few delights, but it's mostly been kind of maybe next month's good.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: And now like normally we end the year with a bang, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we're already going to 2027.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: We're not even getting the end of the year with a bang fight.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: So it's just been a dreadful year to be a boxing fan.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: But I feel that the questioning of the sanctioning bodies is the looming UBO.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: And if the UBO were to pass in the Muhammad Ali American Revival Act,
16:58
SPEAKER_01: I believe is the name of it, then...
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Promoters or whoever could have their own belts.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think then that starts to make people go,
17:08
SPEAKER_01: well, what's the point of fighting for whatever belt you want to say?
17:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to be honest with you.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: It has been a horrible year for boxing.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And even for me, the title of my channel has boxing in it on YouTube.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: My metrics have been awful.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm starting to have to cover all sports just to have any traction on
17:32
SPEAKER_02: the platform, on the YouTube platform.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Not only that,
17:36
SPEAKER_02: but amongst casual sports fans that I talked to,
17:42
SPEAKER_02: like the most thing they were excited about recently was Ryan Garcia's fight
17:45
SPEAKER_02: with Conor Benn.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: And of course, they didn't know it was a mismatch, but we all saw it play out that way.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: That was a mismatch.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: That's what they were excited about.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: Like we never we never personally did get back into the conversation of the face of boxing.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: And I'd like to go maybe on another episode.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: Go back and dive into that face of boxing argument.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Can I touch on the face of boxing too?
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, do it, please, because we haven't had a chance.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the face of boxing is a way to take talent out of the equation.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: So if you say face of boxing, then you can put whoever you want there is popular.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: But to me,
18:25
SPEAKER_01: face of boxing is pound for pound top guys who are fighting the best guys
18:31
SPEAKER_01: and they're relevant, but they're also giving guys the shot to be the best guy.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: You can't be the face of boxing and not have given guys in the past or the present the chance.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the argument about Canelo was a commercial draw,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: but people felt as though he didn't give Benavidez the chance.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's when people started looking elsewhere and going,
18:52
SPEAKER_01: who's the face of boxing now?
18:54
SPEAKER_01: I honestly feel that's when the tables kind of turned on Canelo.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like when people are saying, oh,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Ryan Garcia is the face of boxing, he needs to either do his rematches with Tank.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Or he needs to give every young an up-and-comer.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, they're not young anymore.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: That's the weird thing.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: They're all about 30 and they haven't all fought each other.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: And if Garcia wants to be the face of boxing,
19:17
SPEAKER_01: he has to fight all of his contemporaries that make a lot of money and fight
19:20
SPEAKER_01: a couple of guys that get their spot and deserve it.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: And he has to win more than he loses, in my opinion, to be the face of boxing.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: You don't just get to be the face of boxing for the sake of boxing
19:33
SPEAKER_01: because boxing has this habit, like I always say, of we're extremely irrelevant.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: But look, there's Ryan Garcia or there's Jake Paul.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: And people know who they are and they do boxing.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: See, look, I swear people watch us.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Boxing is the most embarrassing sport when it comes to putting pride
19:50
SPEAKER_01: in high-level athletes, even if they don't have huge followers.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: We are so eager to hand the keys off to people with large followings in hopes
20:00
SPEAKER_01: that money follows those people.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: I agree with you.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: If there's any weight division in the sport of boxing that I feel...
20:10
SPEAKER_02: That would be phenomenal,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: phenomenally successful with a return to the Super 6 format or the idea of
20:17
SPEAKER_02: the Super 6 tournament that for boxing fans that can remember that.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: I think it'd be the welterweight division.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: And ultimately,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: whoever could come out of that successful win a tournament style like that should be
20:31
SPEAKER_02: the face of boxing.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: I would have no problem finally crowning Ryan Garcia the face of boxing
20:36
SPEAKER_02: if you can get all these welterweight champions and some top contenders
20:40
SPEAKER_02: to fight each other in some type of Super 6 tournament and see who emerges as
20:44
SPEAKER_02: the world's best welterweight.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: Because the welterweight division has always been one of the most prestigious in
20:48
SPEAKER_02: the sport of boxing.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: Something happened this week that a fighter passed away, former fighter, Mexican fighter.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm not too sure if you're familiar with Jorge Kawagi,
21:02
SPEAKER_02: a Mexican billionaire,
21:04
SPEAKER_02: essentially a Mexican billionaire, reality TV star, actor, businessman.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: He was most famously known for having a manufactured boxing career.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: Even his body, they said, was manufactured.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Lukie, he had pec implants.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: What appeared to be deltoid implants.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: And they manufactured a 12 and 0 perfect, you know, 12 knockout career.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: And he passed away this weekend.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: So rest, rest in peace to him.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: But this is somebody that was in love with the sport of boxing.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: And they say that, you know, his everything about his career was manufactured.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: All the fights were predetermined and he managed to build up this impressive 12
21:44
SPEAKER_02: and 0 cruiserweight career.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Some say the WBC may have helped him.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if you saw news about that fighter's passing.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: I didn't, but maybe you can kind of tell me a little bit more if you feel comfortable.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: I think the thing that most people will remember him
22:00
SPEAKER_02: for are how bad his fights were,
22:03
SPEAKER_02: how bad his opponents were, and how it was easy to see that these fights were fixed.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: Essentially, they were fixed.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: And what was most even stranger was that his physique didn't look like it was built
22:17
SPEAKER_02: the way a traditional boxer would build his physique.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Like I said, he had a...
22:22
SPEAKER_02: Cosmetic work done on him,
22:24
SPEAKER_02: not only facially and everything, but deltoids, pec implants, muscle implants.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: It was a very strange case, but actually a very true story.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if eventually maybe a biopic or some type of Netflix documentary about his life.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: He was a very interesting person outside of the ring.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: Like I said,
22:43
SPEAKER_02: he had many accomplishments,
22:44
SPEAKER_02: a wealthy person, many, I think he even dabbled in politics.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: So I won't be surprised if something comes out of it.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Maybe somebody who can tell his story better than I can.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: But you guys look it up.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Mexican politician Jorge Kawagi,
22:59
SPEAKER_02: who was a cruiserweight, ranked cruiserweight, 12 and no, 12 knockouts.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think he had a synthetic body.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: The news of Ring Magazine potential sale.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else you want to add to that?
23:13
SPEAKER_02: Because that is big,
23:14
SPEAKER_02: big news and has some serious implications, too,
23:17
SPEAKER_02: for things going forward,
23:18
SPEAKER_02: not only in the boxing media,
23:19
SPEAKER_02: but like you said, now, potentially next year we could have five world titles.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: Is that Ring Magazine lineal title?
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Is it watered down even more so?
23:30
SPEAKER_01: I think it asks the question of what is the Ring Magazine right now?
23:37
SPEAKER_01: So I think that people have major questions around Ring Magazine and what
23:45
SPEAKER_01: the magazine is, whether it's more PR or...
23:49
SPEAKER_01: There's still great work being done,
23:52
SPEAKER_01: good reporters over there, but I think that it's kind of gotten...
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely taken a hit the past couple of years because it's feeling as
24:01
SPEAKER_01: though at times it can have strong opinions on things that you wouldn't expect
24:06
SPEAKER_01: a journalistic publication to have strong opinions on.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So I think that if that were to happen, I'd be curious to see what the lean is.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I was at Boxing Scene when Pro Box TV had Boxing Scene and it was completely separate.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: There was never interaction between Pro Box and Boxing Scene.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: So it can work really well.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: I'd be curious to see the dynamics.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Because I think that right now we need reporters more than ever in boxing
24:34
SPEAKER_01: to get enthusiasm around the sport, to give interesting opinions.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: I think that also reporters have to step their game up and do more than just write.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I think multimedia is the future and people need to have different platforms.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: They need podcasts.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: They need to be able to do videos.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Content is king.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I think that a lot of guys are going to get phased out in the next four years
24:59
SPEAKER_01: because they're almost...
25:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think the scary thing to you and me,
25:03
SPEAKER_01: but I think it's true,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: I think in the next 15 years, you're going to have people that can't write.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very realistic thing.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: And you're going to have to evolve.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Like within my lifetime,
25:14
SPEAKER_01: I think there's going to be a generation of people that struggle with writing
25:17
SPEAKER_01: or they only can write in certain ways based on social media interactions
25:20
SPEAKER_01: or they know the prompts to talk to AI to do it.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: And with the DAZN potential ring magazine,
25:27
SPEAKER_01: I think my thing is what happens to the belt is I think a lot of people were looking
25:33
SPEAKER_01: at the belt if it went to Zufa Boxing as the legitimacy for Zufa Boxing,
25:37
SPEAKER_01: that it would be tied to lineal hemorrhage.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's what's really hurt Zufa Boxing is Zufa Boxing doesn't have history.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: And this is a sport that almost loves its history too much.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: And Zufa Boxing,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: like Dakota is saying,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: it's coming into the house,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: coming into your house and saying your house is messed up.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: And some of the things about our house, we love the history.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: We don't want you to romanticize and say it used to be good and
26:02
SPEAKER_01: then it got messed up and we're coming to fix it.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think that being tied to a belt like Ring Magazine could have given it
26:11
SPEAKER_01: that historical significance.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: But let's be honest,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Zufa Boxing has come in and changed the way people talk about boxing
26:19
SPEAKER_01: with like executives and tech talk.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: But their their fight cards have gone rather unnoticed.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't think people have a strong opinion on them, whether they are like good or bad.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: They're very middle ground.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: They're hardcore enthusiasts,
26:36
SPEAKER_01: nerd fights of kind of mid-level fighters and then a main card with kind
26:40
SPEAKER_01: of upper echelon fighters.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: But it hasn't made a huge like it was brought in like a disruptor.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: We're going to disrupt the game.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And it really hasn't disrupted things.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: It's just changed the dynamic with, in my opinion, the sanctioning bodies.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: It's changed how people, how many TV dates they're going to be in the future.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And it just makes me wonder,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: where are the sanctioning bodies go if DAZN has a title and ZUFA has a title
27:08
SPEAKER_01: in theory?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: What is the role of the sanctioning bodies?
27:12
SPEAKER_01: Where do they fit in?
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Because what purpose will they serve to these two entities if they have television
27:18
SPEAKER_01: and they have a title, I guess, is the big thing I think about.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: Before we move on finally to the last segment of the show today.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: So I really thought that Shakur Stevenson being
27:30
SPEAKER_02: the biggest signee for Zufa that Would have led
27:33
SPEAKER_02: to Shakur potentially getting some big-name opponents,
27:38
SPEAKER_02: and he's been nearly out himself a year from the ring.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: I personally don't see anything wrong with Rayo Valenzuela,
27:45
SPEAKER_02: who is a former world titleist at 140 pounds, and Azufa, also Azufa Saini.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't see anything wrong with that fight,
27:52
SPEAKER_02: but I feel like Shakur is holding out for much, much bigger opportunities.
27:57
SPEAKER_02: And if there's any one fighter I think that could have unified or become undisputed
28:01
SPEAKER_02: at 140 pounds,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: It just seems like Shakur has taken some major step backwards
28:07
SPEAKER_02: and potentially achieving that dream of becoming undisputed in
28:11
SPEAKER_02: a division I think he could potentially clear out.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on Shakur just kind of,
28:17
SPEAKER_02: you know, staying busy but not really getting the fights he wants?
28:23
SPEAKER_01: It's just frustrating to me because with Stevenson,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: it's like he's the perfect guy and I know it's not my money,
28:29
SPEAKER_01: but I have so much faith in his boxing ability and his ability to fight at
28:32
SPEAKER_01: a high level that I would almost like him to press other fighters
28:38
SPEAKER_01: and take less money to get them in the ring,
28:40
SPEAKER_01: to get those accolades, to get those achievements.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: But it feels as though from the outside looking in, he's...
28:47
SPEAKER_01: He is the best fighter and he has a lot of accomplishments,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: but it also feels like he wants every advantage, every benefit.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And when you're that talented and people don't feel they need to fight you
28:59
SPEAKER_01: because you're that talented,
29:01
SPEAKER_01: I wish that there was a little bit more, let's make this fight happen.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's been the frustration.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: ...Of this era is like,
29:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Gary Antoine Russell is a fine enough fighter,
29:13
SPEAKER_01: but I think I'm good if I see him or not by the end of the year.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Him against Shakur is a good fight, but I'm pretty confident Shakur beats him.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: The fact that this fight may or may not happen behind...
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Because in negotiations, who knows whose side is the issue?
29:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's completely unacceptable because this is not a fight that I'm clamoring to see.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: This should just be a standard television quality fight.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And it shows the sad state of affairs for not just this division, but the sport as a whole.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: When a fight that could capture my interest and I'd be intrigued,
29:42
SPEAKER_01: but this is not like a fight that fascinates me,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: is a fight that I might not even be able to see because of whatever's going on in
29:50
SPEAKER_01: the background.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: And now for our last segment, we mentioned you just mentioned history.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: It's that time of the year where the IB International Boxing Hall
30:01
SPEAKER_02: of Fame has announced their 2027 inductees.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: And for us boxing pundits and boxing fans, it always is a source of conversation and debate.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: The list is a good one.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: They've added,
30:15
SPEAKER_02: I believe,
30:16
SPEAKER_02: an additional nine people to a list of people who've been waiting quite long.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the things that's standing out to me is one of my favorite boxers
30:23
SPEAKER_02: from a prior generation is on the list now.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's going to spur the conversation of whether or not being
30:30
SPEAKER_02: a tremendous fighter in just one weight division,
30:34
SPEAKER_02: which Gennady Golovkin was essentially that guy, too.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: Is Sergio Maravilla Martinez a very interesting name on this year's list?
30:43
SPEAKER_02: A guy that I would probably induct if I had a choice just because he was one of my favorites.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's going to bring up that conversation.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: Can you just dominate in one division and be more worthy of that spot over, say,
30:55
SPEAKER_02: this year's Leo Santa Cruz of Michoacán,
30:58
SPEAKER_02: El Terremoto, who had multiple division championships across multiple divisions?
31:03
SPEAKER_02: Who...
31:05
SPEAKER_02: Should take a spot first.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Also, I want to mention Iran.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: The Blade Barkley is somebody that I think should already have been inducted
31:13
SPEAKER_02: and he's on the list.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: Any other people that you think should be on the list or I mean that are on the list
31:21
SPEAKER_02: that you think are leading contenders for a spot?
31:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm biased,
31:26
SPEAKER_01: but when I was in the gym younger,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: I used to buy Ring Magazine callback to see the rankings.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: And Bad Chad Dawson was one of my favorite fighters because he didn't get
31:35
SPEAKER_01: the acclaim of others, but he dominated his division.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: And I used to deeply respect Bad Chad.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And I remember looking at the rankings and seeing if he was still up there
31:44
SPEAKER_01: because sometimes his fights weren't televised.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to throw back a question to you is,
31:51
SPEAKER_01: We're neither of us full transparency or Hall of Fame voters,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: which everyone would be like, duh, listening to the program.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: They understand that quite clearly.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: But let's create our criteria for what a Hall of Fame boxer is or between.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: I'll go first with me.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: I'll say you have to pass an excitement threshold where at least for four
32:16
SPEAKER_01: or five main events or for, I don't know what it would be, at least three years.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: I can't miss your fight or I'm deeply intrigued by the trajectory of your career.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Even if you're in a fight, I know you're going to win.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Hall of Fame boxers command attention and it felt like I was missing out
32:33
SPEAKER_01: on something if I wasn't updated on this fighter.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: That's the first prerequisite I'm going to throw in.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
32:41
SPEAKER_02: No, I love that.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: Can't miss fighter.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: That star quality that Gennady Golovkin possessed that was built up by HBO
32:48
SPEAKER_02: that you had to watch his fights.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: He knew he was You knew he most likely was going to win,
32:53
SPEAKER_02: but you wanted to see him destroy his opponents.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think Sergio Marvilla Martinez had that for multiple, multiple fights.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: Of course,
33:01
SPEAKER_02: he fought on way too long as some fighters take a while to realize that
33:06
SPEAKER_02: the father time has caught up.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a very important thing that the fighter was a must watch fighters,
33:12
SPEAKER_02: that you weren't going to miss his fight.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: You were going to watch that fight live.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay, second one I'm going to bring up.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: You have to have a good rivalry,
33:21
SPEAKER_01: at least one good iconic rivalry in order to be a Hall of Fame boxer.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: You had to have fought someone that was your foil and you either lost to them,
33:31
SPEAKER_01: but it was a debatable fight that people wondered, or you won the fight.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't think Hall of Fame boxers can go through their whole career without having
33:40
SPEAKER_01: a chief rival.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: No, I love the Chief Rival.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Great examples, obviously, are trilogies that have happened in the past.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: Arturo Gatti's trilogies.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: In the future, we'll debate Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder's trilogy.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Canelo Alvarez will be a first...
33:59
SPEAKER_02: Ballot Hall of Famer himself for his trilogy.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: I love a rivalry.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: It's very, very important.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: Leo Santa Cruz on this list had that rivalry with Abner Mares.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: That makes him a compelling choice as well.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: And I think on my on my list of criteria, I'll say you've gone one and two.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: I do like and I do feel that it's important for somebody to be able
34:20
SPEAKER_02: to say they've done things like Manny Pacquiao,
34:22
SPEAKER_02: that I've won titles in at least two weight classes.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: I like that.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: Or even more, if possible, three and four.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: That's part of my criteria, too.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: So I'd say this.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: If you stay in one division your whole career,
34:40
SPEAKER_01: I'd prefer if you're a Hall of Famer, you have seven to ten title defenses.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to have a sustained title run.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you move up in weight, I'm like you.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: But I also don't want careers,
34:56
SPEAKER_01: and I won't say guys' names,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: where you pick preferential matchups as you move up and know you're a two,
35:04
SPEAKER_01: three, four, pick the numbers.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: You really kind of didn't fight those top guys, and you never wanted to fight the top guys.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: You just picked the vulnerable guys.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the most obvious is Adrian Broner.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: That
35:17
SPEAKER_01: was on the tip of my tongue.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: I just didn't want to throw him under the bus.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's the most obvious.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: And he accomplished what multiple four division weight champion, one of the youngest fighters.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: And none of those fights were particularly difficult.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: DeMarco fight was impressive.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: That was a good one.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: DeMarco stopped John Molina, who I'm always fond of.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: And then he stopped him in like 40 or 50 seconds.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I was there live.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: It was Ward, Chad Dawson.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: And it was such a big deal for me to be in an HBO fight live as media.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: I was so thrilled.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: I actually sat in a local news desk spot because I didn't know any better.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like, oh, I got to move.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: I got to move.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And...
36:01
SPEAKER_01: He goes into that DeMarco fight and a lot of people thought DeMarco would beat him.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that and the Gavin Reese fight, Broner looked as good as I think he ever looked.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: And he looked like a possible all-time great.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: And we never saw that guy again.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think that the people that remember the DeMarco fight hung on until
36:20
SPEAKER_01: the Manny Pacquiao fight to believe that we could see that Broner again.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: But that Broner left the building by the time COVID hit.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: But I would say if you've won, like, let's think of, let's go through this list.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: So...
36:36
SPEAKER_01: Maravilla,
36:37
SPEAKER_01: one division,
36:37
SPEAKER_01: but he fits the bill because he has the Chavez Jr.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: rivalry, which really was a moment in boxing.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: That was a huge moment of kind of like,
36:47
SPEAKER_01: here's this privileged guy versus this guy that boxing would have thrown away.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Maravilla, I think also, not that we didn't touch on this, there's the politics of boxing.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: The politics of boxing felt like they were working against Sergio at times.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: And that he still overcame.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of it.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I think that's something we should touch on.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Most Hall of Famers have a story arc.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: That you can write about in a Hall of Fame speech.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: And for Sergio Martinez, he wasn't really supposed to be the guy that he was.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: He wasn't supposed to be that main event HBO boxer.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think that really when I think of Sergio Martinez,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: I think of the two Paul Williams fights.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: The first one being so competitive and Martinez saying,
37:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to knock him out and he knocks him out and he wears the King's crown.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: And to me, that was a real...
37:37
SPEAKER_01: I think he's three, Jorge Linares, who's, yeah, he's on the list this year.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: He was a lightweight champion.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: I believe he held a belt at 30.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I know he lost at 40 to Cano.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: I believe he started at featherweight,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: but I watched boxing so long that the weight classes start to blur if I didn't write
38:07
SPEAKER_01: about it.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: But would you say Linares' wins in those eras were the best guys?
38:14
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say that.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: And also, he'll be remembered for a lot of his losses later on in his career as well.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: I think to me,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Linares,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: I remember as a word of mouth internet guy who was like had
38:27
SPEAKER_01: a warrior fighting spirit.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: He almost felt like an in a way in terms of wanting the best fights and being
38:33
SPEAKER_01: a warrior in the ring.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: It just feels like with what he brought to the ring,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: he's a real 50-50 guy because it felt like he had the Hall of Fame talent and
38:43
SPEAKER_01: the hype, but then the damage around his eyes, fights getting stopped.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: It felt like he never really reached his potential.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: And then when he reached his potential, he was with Golden Boy Promotions.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: He went on a sustained run.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: It felt like lightweight was a good division for him.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: He had that amazing fight with Lomachenko, but then it ends with him getting stopped.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: My gut feeling is probably closer to a no than yes.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Can you imagine if Jorge Linares had...
39:12
SPEAKER_02: He hurt Devin Haney.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: He's one of the first people to really hurt Devin Haney.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: If he had finished Devin Haney in that fight...
39:19
SPEAKER_02: He gets in.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: Gets in.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the tricky thing about the Hall of Fame is...
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Even though it's the Hall of Fame,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: before you close out, can you please talk about the zero, the undefeated trend?
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Just curious on your thoughts.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: We'll finish on that,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: but I just want to finish on my Hall of Fame thought,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Devontae, but thank you for giving me that.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: We love doing that.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: We love being here and talking with you guys in the fall.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: It's really fun.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: We started in the summer and now we're somehow still in the fall,
39:47
SPEAKER_01: but we just don't do it as often.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Is...
39:50
SPEAKER_01: With, it's like, how do I say it?
39:54
SPEAKER_01: With Hall of Fame, I feel like you want to be able to sum up a guy's career in 30 seconds.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: And there needs to be at least two iconic punches that landed where you say,
40:05
SPEAKER_01: that's a Hall of Fame boxer.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, you see that moment.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Sergio Martinez knocks out Paul Williams.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: You go, woo!
40:11
SPEAKER_01: And then you see Chavez Jr. drop Sergio and then he still fights toe to toe in the 12th.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, what a warrior.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like Linares doesn't quite have that.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Does Kelly the Ghost Pavlik have that punch?
40:28
SPEAKER_01: He has it with Jermaine Taylor.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: He has it with Jermaine Taylor.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: But arguably two of his biggest fights to me.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Sergio Martinez, where Martinez beat him.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And obviously it's Bernard Hopkins.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: So as much as I love Kelly Pavlik,
40:44
SPEAKER_01: I feel like Kelly's closer to a no than a yes because he didn't have
40:47
SPEAKER_01: that sustained run.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: And this year,
40:52
SPEAKER_02: there are also nominees,
40:54
SPEAKER_02: Tom Brown for Matchmaker,
40:55
SPEAKER_02: Robert Garcia for Trainer, Closed Circuit Distributor, Johan Sr., Manager Al Heyman.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Heyman's got to get in.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Al Heyman's got to get in because there was a whole era of just think pieces written
41:10
SPEAKER_01: about Heyman.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: So Heyman, Al Heyman needs to get in.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: That's like a no doubt, right?
41:14
SPEAKER_01: That's like an easy Hall of Fame vote.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: And for me,
41:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm a bit biased,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: but Robert Garcia,
41:21
SPEAKER_02: who's been nominated and awarded Trainer of the Year,
41:24
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how many times,
41:25
SPEAKER_02: but he's just consistently been a guy to build champions.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: I like him.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: I like him for next year.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: He's one of the greatest boxing trainers ever.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: And he's still active and he's still really, really good.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And whenever you see him,
41:40
SPEAKER_01: you see credibility in the corner,
41:43
SPEAKER_01: you see professionalism and you see class and dignity.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: I think that's another thing about the Hall of Fame,
41:49
SPEAKER_01: at least to me,
41:50
SPEAKER_01: and it could age well,
41:52
SPEAKER_01: is I like dignity and respect with my Hall of Famers,
41:55
SPEAKER_01: that they're not poor representations of the sport,
41:57
SPEAKER_01: that they really embody what you'd like to be if you give your heart and soul to
42:02
SPEAKER_01: the sport.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think Robert Garcia personifies that to me,
42:05
SPEAKER_01: where it's like it's dignity, class and expertise.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: You're never going to see a soundbite with Robert that's not sincere and you relate to it.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I keep seeing the name Murataya being floated as a potential Shakur Stevenson opponent.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to see what game plan he would have for Murataya in that fight.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: He was successful against Andy Cruz, a gold medalist.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: He always seems to come up with some great game plans.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't fully believe in him.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: I didn't fully believe in him.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: And I remember...
42:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know,
42:39
SPEAKER_01: he could sense the skepticism and he'd tell me,
42:41
SPEAKER_01: look, they they say he's a great guy, but Muratalia is a great guy.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: And then I couldn't forget that.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, he gave me some pushback because, you know, I'm as high as anyone on Andy Cruz.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Let's go to Devante's question so I can catch the last.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: And undefeated record before Floyd Mayweather,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: I'd say about the Oscar De La Hoya fight,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: which was a big,
43:17
SPEAKER_01: for those that weren't around for that fight,
43:18
SPEAKER_01: when Mayweather fought De La Hoya, it was darn near like a crossover fight.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: It was late stage, my space arc.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Early Facebook.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: It might have been really, really early Twitter.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: And it was a big budget HBO production of Mayweather,
43:34
SPEAKER_01: who was a cocky guy,
43:35
SPEAKER_01: who said a lot of disrespectful stuff, and Oscar, who had protected it.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I think there was an undercurrent of, you know, sometimes...
43:56
SPEAKER_01: Traditional Mexican or Mexican-American people have issues with black people
44:01
SPEAKER_01: because they see like an arrogance.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: And then that underlying current kind of elevated the fight,
44:07
SPEAKER_01: I think,
44:07
SPEAKER_01: because it spoke to maybe an underlying tension to from both sides,
44:11
SPEAKER_01: which I think great fights kind of do in a way.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: If there's a racial tension or a subtle like a class tension,
44:17
SPEAKER_01: I think the great fights kind of build off of that in a non
44:20
SPEAKER_01: a non let's Destroy society way.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: It makes you almost think about it.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think the real special ones actually make us reevaluate it and go,
44:32
SPEAKER_01: should we be better people?
44:34
SPEAKER_01: But to me, at least, I feel as though
44:39
SPEAKER_01: And push back on me if I'm just saying words and it doesn't seem right
44:42
SPEAKER_01: because I might not be right to speak on it.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: But the O started with Floyd Mayweather.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: And then the generation wanted to be Floyd.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And I think the perception the generation saw was after Floyd,
44:55
SPEAKER_01: they mostly watched his late career and how Floyd was a businessman
45:00
SPEAKER_01: and how he positioned himself and he fought Birdo.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, let me position that.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: And now I think we're in an era where...
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to really take a fight just to take a fight.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: They want to be the smartest guy in the room.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: They want to hold all the power.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm the businessman.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm the...
45:21
SPEAKER_01: I call the shots.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: And we have just a lot of guys that obstruct fights.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: We don't have Paul Williams anymore.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: We don't have Sergio Martinez.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: We don't have Kelly Pavlik.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: We got a lot of guys that want to be,
45:32
SPEAKER_01: yeah, you're going to do this on my terms, 10 ounce gloves.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I said so.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts?
45:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know,
45:40
SPEAKER_02: we started this show off with do the titles,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: are they starting to mean less to this new generation of fighters?
45:46
SPEAKER_02: I think it's easy to argue that that late 90s to early 2000s crop of fighters,
45:53
SPEAKER_02: but like Oscar De La Hoya,
45:54
SPEAKER_02: Fernando Vargas is the end,
45:56
SPEAKER_02: the Puerto Rican fighters,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: all those guys had no problem facing each other if it meant putting a loss
46:04
SPEAKER_02: on their records.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: And if anything good is going to come from this current crop,
46:08
SPEAKER_02: As Ryan Garcia makes his argument to be the face of boxing is for me personally,
46:13
SPEAKER_02: the best stories in boxing are the guys who've faced adversity and somehow managed
46:19
SPEAKER_02: to go from one,
46:21
SPEAKER_02: maybe even two losses on the records and finally becoming a world champion.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: Manny Pacquiao was one of those guys.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: He ended up becoming world champion in more than seven or seven plus divisions.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'd like to see a return to in the sport of boxing.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: Guys that are not afraid to lose that blemish, to have an unblemished record like Floyd.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: We want to have the tough fights and realize
46:47
SPEAKER_02: that those tough fights could equally get you that stardom
46:51
SPEAKER_02: that they're potentially looking for.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: And it's easy to root for the underdog.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you're rooting for the underdog and he does the unthinkable and he becomes
47:00
SPEAKER_02: a world champion.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: That to me is far, far better than watching a guy who's had every opportunity handed to him.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: And then today, let's face it, today you can become an interim world champion.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: Somebody gives up his title and next thing you know, you're the full world champion.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: I want to touch on this too.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm stealing your segment,
47:20
SPEAKER_01: but I had a question about why are ratings,
47:23
SPEAKER_01: if we're in an economic recession,
47:25
SPEAKER_01: why are the NFL, NBA, why are they getting record ratings in boxing?
47:30
SPEAKER_01: I think boxing is slowly trying to kill the underdog.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: You know,
47:33
SPEAKER_01: when an underdog pulls off an upset,
47:35
SPEAKER_01: it's like, how can we rush that back into a rematch?
47:38
SPEAKER_01: How can we get the more favorable outcome?
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Underdogs don't get the same benefit as a side fighters.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, Alexander Usyk was an underdog for most of his career.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Then he stumbles a little bit and everyone's like, well, I told you he wasn't very good.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Joshua and Fury as a fight,
47:56
SPEAKER_01: which we didn't even touch on because thank goodness,
47:58
SPEAKER_01: it's more of an exercise in wealth,
48:00
SPEAKER_01: privilege, vanity, and exposure as it is a boxing fight.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not relatable.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: It's just about two famous people making
48:11
SPEAKER_01: I think where boxing is struggling right now is
48:15
SPEAKER_01: when people aren't making these fights, underdogs don't get a chance.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: So your Raymond Muratala year after year just sits in a gym and is hoping for opportunities.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: So you got Devin Haney, Teofimo Lopez, Ryan Garcia, and a few other guys.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: And it feels like every year they'll fight once,
48:29
SPEAKER_01: maybe twice,
48:30
SPEAKER_01: and they'll just circle around these guys until we get to 2032 and
48:33
SPEAKER_01: then they're done.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think that there is an exhaustion and people are like, where?
48:56
SPEAKER_01: Because don't people come into the sport for the underdogs?
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Don't they like it because Rocky was an underdog and they love seeing the guy
49:03
SPEAKER_01: that shouldn't do it, do it.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: And it really feels like we're not getting that.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: Like whenever we get that, we get Erdson Garcia beating Alan Chavez.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: We get Damian Kanibia beating Andy Ruiz.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: There's no PR tour.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: There's no talking.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: There's no anything.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: It's just a mess.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to say that because I feel as though that's what's hurting boxing
49:28
SPEAKER_01: in America is people look at it and they see a bunch of kind of strange people
49:33
SPEAKER_01: that are unrelatable and they don't feel like the underdogs have a chance.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: I think that hurts.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: Now I just went on a rant, but what do you think?
49:59
SPEAKER_02: I love it, man.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: We should do an underdog story.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: Going back to that International Boxing Hall of Fame,
50:06
SPEAKER_02: Sergio Maravilla Martinez lost to Margarito early in his career in Las Vegas
50:12
SPEAKER_02: when he was an unknown.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: You want to talk about underdogs starting your boxing career at 20 years old as
50:17
SPEAKER_02: a converted soccer player?
50:19
SPEAKER_02: That's an underdog.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Right off the gate, you're an underdog starting your career in boxing in your 20s.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Lukie, it was a great show.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Let's get back together next Thursday.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: For me, I'm really interested in next week's fight because I had a chance to talk
50:32
SPEAKER_02: to Lucas Boddy pre-COVID,
50:35
SPEAKER_02: did some interviews with him,
50:36
SPEAKER_02: and what an opportunity he has on his doorstep next week in Chicago.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: Love to get back to you and do another show next week.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back, guys.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Let us know what you thought.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Leave some comments.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Take care.