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'Daddy hurt mommy,' No one Listens to Little Boy, then Mommy's Skull Found Buried Beside Back Yard Pool · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Christmas Morning in Jacksonville, Florida,
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Speaker 1: a young wife and mother, Bonnie Hame opens presents with
0:21
Speaker 1: her son. Bonnie's husband, Michael, captures the moment forever on video.
0:29
Speaker 1: Less than two weeks later, Bonnie disappears. What happened to
0:34
Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame? A gorgeous young mom who disappears from her
0:38
Speaker 1: Florida home one January day at the age of twenty three.
0:42
Speaker 1: She has never been seen now interesting Her son was
0:47
Speaker 1: always plagued with nightmares that Mommy was murdered, but after
0:51
Speaker 1: an investigation that turned out not to be true. I'm
0:54
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:57
Speaker 1: with us. Bonnie Hame seemingly disappears into thin air. Where
1:01
Speaker 1: is she? I've got an all star panel with me today.
1:05
Speaker 1: First of all, newcomer to Crime Stories, Doctor Chris Sperry,
1:09
Speaker 1: former chief medical Examiner for the entire state of Georgia.
1:13
Speaker 1: He explained a lot to me when I was a
1:15
Speaker 1: prosecutor and also led me through many many homicide trials.
1:20
Speaker 1: Frank Powers, Assignment manager News for Jacksonville. Doctor Jolly Silva,
1:25
Speaker 1: New York clinical forensics psychologists worked for New York Family Court.
1:29
Speaker 1: That's a toughie. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags.
1:34
Speaker 1: You can find it on Amazon. And Joseph Scott Morgan,
1:37
Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University and author of
1:40
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon to Frank Powers joining
1:44
Speaker 1: us from news for Jacksonville. You know when you drive
1:47
Speaker 1: through Jacksonville, Frank Powers, it's beautiful. It's there on the water.
1:52
Speaker 1: It's turning into a real tourist makeup because the perfect weather.
1:56
Speaker 1: Tell me about when she went missing, first of all,
2:00
Speaker 1: setting the scene for me. Tell me about their neighborhood.
2:01
Speaker 1: It's a fairly typical middle class neighborhood on the north
2:04
Speaker 1: side of the river, about maybe fifteen minutes from the airport.
2:07
Speaker 1: And you see a lot of neat houses along the neighborhood.
2:12
Speaker 1: People take care of their lines, They go to church
2:14
Speaker 1: and celebrate birthdays. You know, I grew up in a
2:17
Speaker 1: very rural area, and when you say middle class, that
2:22
Speaker 1: spans well over half of our country. And I'm just
2:27
Speaker 1: thinking about that. To doctor Chris Sperry joining me today.
2:31
Speaker 1: Very often people are fooled into thinking that people don't
2:35
Speaker 1: disappear from their neighborhood. That's just not true. Because you
2:39
Speaker 1: and I've been through so many many homicides, I can't
2:41
Speaker 1: even count them. Chris. You can be rich, you can
2:44
Speaker 1: be poor, you can have your PhD, you can drop
2:47
Speaker 1: out at sixth grade. It doesn't matter. People go missing
2:50
Speaker 1: from every walk of life. Sometimes they're found and sometimes
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Speaker 1: they're not. Chris, that's right. People go missing all the time,
2:56
Speaker 1: and you never really think about it until someone is missing,
2:59
Speaker 1: and then suddenly it's right at the forefront of your thought.
3:02
Speaker 1: You know how many times, doctor Sperry have you and
3:05
Speaker 1: I been in court together and you look out and
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Speaker 1: you see this seemingly perfect family. You know, you got
3:11
Speaker 1: the whole clan there, and they're all well dressed, they articulate,
3:15
Speaker 1: they've all got degrees or from a fancy area of town.
3:19
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter, does not matter, doesn't matter a bit. I
3:22
Speaker 1: mean dozens over and over and over again. You know,
3:26
Speaker 1: the family that you least think is going to be
3:30
Speaker 1: responsible for someone's disappearance or have a family member disappear,
3:34
Speaker 1: they're the ones that are sitting there to Wendy Patrick
3:37
Speaker 1: joining me California prosecutor, author of Red Flags you know,
3:41
Speaker 1: I'm looking at her picture and I'm looking at family photos,
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Speaker 1: and it's hard for me to believe that this mom
3:46
Speaker 1: of this beautiful little boy just goes missing without the boy.
3:50
Speaker 1: That's the problem for me. Yeah, Nancy, it's you know,
3:52
Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head when you talked
3:54
Speaker 1: about it's hard for most people, i e. Most jurors
3:57
Speaker 1: to believe that somebody that looks like they come from
3:59
Speaker 1: a picture perfect life could just go missing, especially when
4:03
Speaker 1: you talk about splitting up a family. But I gotta
4:05
Speaker 1: tell you, and we know this firsthand nowadays, with the
4:08
Speaker 1: advent of social media and Facebook, that you only see
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Speaker 1: the image that somebody wants you to see, and behind
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Speaker 1: every white picket fence looking yard, perfect family, you just
4:18
Speaker 1: never know what secrets lie beneath that appears to be
4:21
Speaker 1: what at least was going through some people's heads when
4:23
Speaker 1: it happened in this game to doctor Jolie Silva joining me,
4:26
Speaker 1: Clinical forensic psychologist, Doctor Silva, I was just thinking about
4:29
Speaker 1: this past Sunday, dragging everybody, getting everybody up, getting everybody dressed,
4:34
Speaker 1: getting me there early this past Sunday, and I had
4:37
Speaker 1: them all dressed up beautifully, but me you know, I
4:40
Speaker 1: just had on my same T shirt and army jacket
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Speaker 1: and cowboy boots, and I've got everybody stepped into a
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Speaker 1: seat and settled, and I looked around and it fell
4:49
Speaker 1: that we had just poured ourselves in And I wonder,
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Speaker 1: you know, I guess a lot of families do try
4:55
Speaker 1: to give a certain image. Oh yes, I mean, you know,
4:59
Speaker 1: any one who even has children knows that getting out
5:03
Speaker 1: the door is a completely different situation than when you're
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Speaker 1: actually out the door, you know. And I completely agree
5:11
Speaker 1: with the advent of social media, we are even more
5:14
Speaker 1: inclined and more motivated to have this picture perfect family
5:17
Speaker 1: life which goes on inside the house is a completely
5:20
Speaker 1: different story. I mean, the level of dysfunction that can
5:22
Speaker 1: occur across socioeconomic classes, I mean is enormous, you know,
5:29
Speaker 1: domestic violence. You know, you don't have to be in
5:32
Speaker 1: a low SCS to have these kinds of violent acts
5:35
Speaker 1: going on in a home, you know. And it strikes
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Speaker 1: me very very odd to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
5:41
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, that she just vanishes without a trace,
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Speaker 1: especially the little boy Aaron was just three years oh
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Speaker 1: when mommy goes missing. How could she get missing without
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Speaker 1: a trace? Joe Scott. Yeah, I don't bother these cases
5:56
Speaker 1: where people just suddenly vanish into thin air. There's always
5:59
Speaker 1: a rational al for this happening, particularly if you're talking
6:02
Speaker 1: about a young mother who has a child that's, you know,
6:06
Speaker 1: let's face it, totally and completely depended upon her. And
6:10
Speaker 1: so that would leave me as an investigator to think
6:12
Speaker 1: that there's something more to this than what people are saying. Well,
6:15
Speaker 1: we know that she goes missing. I wish you could
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Speaker 1: see her like I'm seeing her right now. Beautiful. This
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Speaker 1: woman has the really dark hair, kind of over on
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Speaker 1: the side, big smile, and it looks like they're in
6:28
Speaker 1: some kind of an organized family photo. She's holding the
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Speaker 1: baby too. Frank Powers from News for Jackson. Did they
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Speaker 1: only have the one child? Yes, just Aaron, and am
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Speaker 1: I correct that he was three at the time she
6:39
Speaker 1: goes missing. He was three years old, and she was
6:42
Speaker 1: the one that made all the arrangements for daycare, which
6:44
Speaker 1: is another thing that was curious. When a mother is
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Speaker 1: going to disappear, whether her she's going to go out
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Speaker 1: by herself, you'd thinks she would be making considerations to
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Speaker 1: have her child taken care of. She was the one
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Speaker 1: that made all the plans for daycare. Okay, just out
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Speaker 1: of curiosity, Frank, do you have children, I have two
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Speaker 1: grown children, two grandchildren. Okay, then you know what I'm
7:03
Speaker 1: talking about. Did you make all the plans for their
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Speaker 1: preschool and school and babysitters? No, you specifically okay care
7:12
Speaker 1: most of that. Yeah, because I can tell you. I
7:14
Speaker 1: have to sometimes tell David how he's supposed to pick
7:18
Speaker 1: the children up for pick up in the afternoon. You
7:20
Speaker 1: go in this way, then you wait right here, and
7:22
Speaker 1: then don't move and make sure you have the sticker
7:24
Speaker 1: of the front or something's gonna go wrong. Blah blah.
7:27
Speaker 1: And when you say, I mean really, doctor Jolie Silva,
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Speaker 1: of course the mob did it. No offense, gentlemen. Of
7:34
Speaker 1: course the mob did all the daycare planning, please a
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Speaker 1: hundred percent. That is like winderful opinion. The mother did
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Speaker 1: all of it. But you know, back to what Frank
7:44
Speaker 1: is saying, she's the one. I guess you're saying. Also,
7:47
Speaker 1: she's the one that would pick the baby up and
7:49
Speaker 1: drop him off and all that, and then she just
7:51
Speaker 1: disappears with no plans. Is that what you're saying, that's
7:53
Speaker 1: what the situation that the police department we're looking into.
7:56
Speaker 1: Why did she take off and leaving her son with
7:59
Speaker 1: an on certain future. That was a big red flag.
8:02
Speaker 1: So Frank Powers, are you telling me she left during
8:05
Speaker 1: the day one day and the baby, Aaron was at
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Speaker 1: daycare or preschool, and then nobody was there to say
8:12
Speaker 1: how she went missing. It happened at night, Okay, tell
8:14
Speaker 1: me about that. According to the husband she left after
8:17
Speaker 1: the fight, she said she was leaving him and he
8:21
Speaker 1: never called police. The police called him only after her
8:25
Speaker 1: purse was found in a dumpster near the airport. They
8:27
Speaker 1: thought that was a bad signing crime stories with Nancy Grace,
8:47
Speaker 1: There's no doubt in my mind if she was able
8:50
Speaker 1: to pick up a phone, she would have contacted someone.
8:54
Speaker 1: Bonnie Haymes family just can't put the pieces together. They
8:57
Speaker 1: don't know why she's not here at home with them.
9:00
Speaker 1: Annie's husband, Michael Haims, says they had an argument before
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Speaker 1: she left the house Wednesday night. He says he thought
9:05
Speaker 1: Bonnie went to blow off some steam, but something happened.
9:09
Speaker 1: A maintenance man at this red roof in near the
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville Airport found a purse inside one of these dumpsters.
9:14
Speaker 1: Here inside the purse Bonnie Hames wallet with her credit
9:18
Speaker 1: cards and her cash still intact. That's when police got suspicious.
9:22
Speaker 1: Nothing else in the case why she should be missing
9:25
Speaker 1: other than this circumstances surrounding, maybe some type of domestic
9:31
Speaker 1: problem with the husband and she'd leaves. Investigators talked to
9:34
Speaker 1: guests at the motel looking for any clues, and they
9:37
Speaker 1: did question Bonnie hames husband, but they are not calling
9:40
Speaker 1: him a suspect. Aankually, she just wasn't happy, she wanted
9:45
Speaker 1: to leave, and I couldn't always stop her from leaving.
9:50
Speaker 1: But what happened after she did leave the house. The
9:53
Speaker 1: Haimes say Bonnie knew about a pressing business appointment the
9:56
Speaker 1: next morning. That's just one of the reasons they say
9:58
Speaker 1: she couldn't have just left town. And there's her little boy.
10:02
Speaker 1: She wouldn't leave him, three year old Aaron him doesn't
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Speaker 1: know where his mommy is. Bonnie Heim's family is just
10:08
Speaker 1: hoping that word will come before they have to explain
10:11
Speaker 1: any bad news to the toddler. Aaron Laji. He's asking
10:17
Speaker 1: for you and if anyone has seen her or has
10:21
Speaker 1: you know, can shed any light on the story. Just
10:24
Speaker 1: please please let us know something you're hearing from our
10:27
Speaker 1: friends at Channel four Eye Witness News. That was Mary
10:30
Speaker 1: Bear reporting on Bonnie Hame going missing. I know that
10:35
Speaker 1: a lot of people go just blow off steam and
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Speaker 1: they leave the house, but it's always difficult for me
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Speaker 1: to imagine. To you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author
10:45
Speaker 1: of Red Flags, It's always hard for me to imagine
10:49
Speaker 1: just leaving the house with the children here. It would
10:52
Speaker 1: be hard for me to just co quote blow off
10:54
Speaker 1: steam while they're here. No, that's absolutely correct, and it
10:57
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to most mothers. And you bring
11:01
Speaker 1: up a great example. Parents cannot relate to this. If
11:03
Speaker 1: you need to blow off steam, you don't do it
11:05
Speaker 1: in a circumstance that would leave your children home alone
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Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, regardless of the differences
11:11
Speaker 1: or the arguments you're having with your spouse. So here
11:14
Speaker 1: we have her having both personally and professionally, no reason
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Speaker 1: to do what allegedly she do and every member, she
11:21
Speaker 1: had a business meeting the next morning, she had the
11:23
Speaker 1: three year old at home. It just doesn't make sense
11:25
Speaker 1: and common sense, Dancy, as you know, during your years
11:28
Speaker 1: as a prosecutor. Is something that jurors don't leave at
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Speaker 1: the door. It's highly suspicious. We're trying to make sense
11:33
Speaker 1: of the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom, Bonnie Hayne.
11:35
Speaker 1: But then everything changes to me, doctor Chris Sperry, when
11:41
Speaker 1: her pocketbook is found in a dumpster. It's one thing,
11:46
Speaker 1: and I know people do it every day to just leave.
11:48
Speaker 1: You just get fed up. Maybe it's an abusive relationship,
11:52
Speaker 1: maybe you're just worn out with the whole thing. It's
11:55
Speaker 1: not what you signed up for, and you just leave,
11:57
Speaker 1: got it. But the pocketbook in the dumpster, Chris, that's
12:01
Speaker 1: a problem. Oh Suddenly, it's immediately suspicious. You know that
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Speaker 1: it may not know at that point what the degree
12:09
Speaker 1: of suspicion is or what the focus is, but finding
12:14
Speaker 1: a pocketbook inside a dumpster is immediate cause for concern, period,
12:19
Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry. In cases that you and I have tried together,
12:23
Speaker 1: and the many, many of the thousands you handled, there's
12:26
Speaker 1: that one tipping point. There's that one fact that changes everything,
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Speaker 1: and for me, it was finding her pocketbook, her pocketbook
12:35
Speaker 1: thrown in a dumpster. Is it always like that in
12:39
Speaker 1: a case where there's that one fact that changes everything.
12:43
Speaker 1: It can be. It's not always, and it would be
12:46
Speaker 1: nice if that were the case. But those instances where
12:50
Speaker 1: there is something, as you said, a tipping point, those
12:55
Speaker 1: completely change the complexion of the case and usually is
13:00
Speaker 1: the focus that starts an actual real investigation. Unfortunately, many
13:05
Speaker 1: cases are not like that, though they can go on
13:08
Speaker 1: for days or even weeks just with nothing. You're looking
13:12
Speaker 1: for the one thing that may open the door or
13:16
Speaker 1: at least show that something serious has happened, something of
13:20
Speaker 1: great concern has happened. And if you find that, then
13:25
Speaker 1: it's very fortunate. But if you don't find that, cases
13:29
Speaker 1: can just drag on and on and on. As you
13:31
Speaker 1: well know, yeah, they can drag on forever. To Frank
13:34
Speaker 1: Power's assignment manager News for Jackson, Well, Frank tell me
13:37
Speaker 1: about where her purse was found. It was in a
13:40
Speaker 1: dumpster behind the motel near the airport. And also probabling
13:45
Speaker 1: to the police when they found that purse in it,
13:48
Speaker 1: so they knew right off the bat whatever happened to
13:50
Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame, it wasn't a robbery. Wow, okay. Joseph Scott
13:53
Speaker 1: Morgan Way in what does this tell you? Well, you know,
13:57
Speaker 1: the pocketbook in and of itself with a lady that
14:01
Speaker 1: is managing her life, the life of her children, the
14:04
Speaker 1: life of her family, and it's just kind of tossed
14:08
Speaker 1: aside and she's attempting to disappear or fade away, if
14:11
Speaker 1: that's the impression that's being given this. This is not
14:14
Speaker 1: something that that would fall in line with with a
14:16
Speaker 1: logical progression here. Uh, it's it's an odd bit of
14:21
Speaker 1: information coming in. There's been a number of cases over
14:24
Speaker 1: the years where you'll have folks that will be involved
14:28
Speaker 1: in an afarious event and their car will wind up
14:31
Speaker 1: part at a at an airport in order to give
14:35
Speaker 1: the appearance that they're just blasting off. But why would
14:38
Speaker 1: you Why would you leave your car at the airport
14:40
Speaker 1: and then not taking anything with you to subsist off
14:44
Speaker 1: of it. It's it's very strange. Now we know though
14:47
Speaker 1: Bonnie was leaving her husband, and that she had prepared
14:50
Speaker 1: to leave her husband. She had even opened a bank
14:52
Speaker 1: account in her own name. She had kept her plan secret,
14:58
Speaker 1: She had the bank statement mailed to her at work.
15:02
Speaker 1: We also know that she had planned to put the
15:06
Speaker 1: baby in a different preschool. She was making all these
15:11
Speaker 1: plans to leave her husband and then she disappears, so
15:15
Speaker 1: seemingly that's part of her plan that was uncovered after
15:19
Speaker 1: her disappearance, except the pocketbook with the money and it
15:24
Speaker 1: listen to this. On the evening she disappeared, Bonnie came
15:27
Speaker 1: home from work at about seven thirty pm. She intended
15:31
Speaker 1: to drop by Evans later to finalize plans for her
15:34
Speaker 1: friend's baby shower. About eight thirty that evening, she called
15:40
Speaker 1: me on the phone. Hey, listen about tonight. I'm not
15:44
Speaker 1: going to be able to make it. She was crying
15:48
Speaker 1: and she was upset. Bunny, is something the matter? And
15:52
Speaker 1: I asked her Schwarman to call her back later and
15:56
Speaker 1: she said no, that she would just talk to me
15:59
Speaker 1: in the morning. Oh, actually not too good. I think
16:02
Speaker 1: I'm coming down with something. But the next morning, either
16:04
Speaker 1: Bonnie nor Michael showed up at work. Why she got
16:08
Speaker 1: mad at me last night and took off. I don't
16:10
Speaker 1: know where she's at. Hopes for Bonnie's safe return began
16:16
Speaker 1: to fade. That same morning, her purse turned up only
16:19
Speaker 1: five miles from home, buried in a motel dumpster near
16:23
Speaker 1: the Jacksonville Airport. Robbery apparently was not a motive due
16:26
Speaker 1: to the amount of money and the credit cards being there.
16:29
Speaker 1: The purse was secured by the maintenance worker and a
16:33
Speaker 1: police officer was called to the scene along with family members.
16:36
Speaker 1: You were hearing our friends at Unsolved Mysteries. You know
16:39
Speaker 1: how many cases have been cracked, Wendy Patrick, by a
16:42
Speaker 1: maintenance worker. A maintenance worker finds a pocketbook, finds a
16:45
Speaker 1: driver's license, finds a body. I mean, they are a
16:49
Speaker 1: source of a lot of information when cases are cracked.
16:52
Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed that, Wendy. I've actually never considered
16:54
Speaker 1: it until right now, you know I have. They're often
16:56
Speaker 1: our best witnesses, and they're often viewed as very credible
16:59
Speaker 1: because they don't have the kind of motive to lie
17:02
Speaker 1: or to make anything up. They're often just good samaritans
17:05
Speaker 1: who are horrified in some of these discoveries they've made,
17:08
Speaker 1: like in this case, and just want to do the
17:10
Speaker 1: right thing as quickly as possible by alerting the authorities.
17:13
Speaker 1: So yes, thank god they're employed in the ways that
17:16
Speaker 1: they are, so they can give us the kind of
17:17
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence we need. Tell me to Frank Powers from
17:21
Speaker 1: News for Jacksonville about the search for Bonnie Hame. What
17:26
Speaker 1: was done to find her well. Police searched all over
17:29
Speaker 1: the area, even brought in psychics. They searched the neighborhood,
17:34
Speaker 1: they asked for tips crime stoppers, didn't get a whole
17:38
Speaker 1: lot of tips. And then they found her car, and
17:42
Speaker 1: that was at the airport, and that was the way
17:44
Speaker 1: they found the car. That again pointed the foul play.
17:47
Speaker 1: Speaking of psychics, take listen to our friend Scott Johnson
17:51
Speaker 1: w j XT News for Jacksonville. The woman who rented
17:54
Speaker 1: the house claims that there were ghosts in the house,
17:57
Speaker 1: things like candles that would like themselves, mattresses that would
18:01
Speaker 1: all of a sudden turn bloody, then all of a
18:03
Speaker 1: sudden not be bloody. That investigators with police at the
18:06
Speaker 1: time brought in psychics to try and help crack this case.
18:24
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Bunny Hayne was born May twentieth,
18:31
Speaker 1: nineteen s and eighteen years old. She married her high school.
18:38
Speaker 1: Her fairy tale would continue two years later with the
18:42
Speaker 1: birth of young Aaron Hayne, the apple of her aunt,
18:46
Speaker 1: the love of her life. And even though he was
18:50
Speaker 1: a young woman, Aaron was everything and she was a
18:55
Speaker 1: great love. But as things happen, BONDI and this began
19:01
Speaker 1: to drift apart. And it wasn't much longer. About three
19:07
Speaker 1: years later and nision, I want to go first to
19:16
Speaker 1: doctor Joey Silva, New York clinical forensic psychologist. What is
19:20
Speaker 1: that you drift apart? Why do couples always say that's
19:25
Speaker 1: the reason for their divorce they drifted apart. Yeah, when
19:29
Speaker 1: you're working and you're raising children and you're trying to
19:32
Speaker 1: cook dinner. I mean, I hardly notice when David walks by.
19:36
Speaker 1: I'm sure he doesn't want to hear that, but that's
19:38
Speaker 1: the reality, because you know, you're you're trying to get
19:40
Speaker 1: through the day. You're trying to get everything done for
19:43
Speaker 1: the children and for work. Of course you drift apart,
19:46
Speaker 1: but it's your duty to try to make it work,
19:49
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, the human brain is only capable
19:51
Speaker 1: of doing so much in a given day. And when
19:53
Speaker 1: you have to worry about things like what are the
19:56
Speaker 1: kids going to worry in to school? I have to
19:57
Speaker 1: sign this note, I have to pick up this, I
19:59
Speaker 1: have to do that. Dude. Your brain only has so
20:01
Speaker 1: much capacity to focus on romance and love and let's connect.
20:08
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man, I'm sorry man to hear for you
20:11
Speaker 1: to actually hear this me laughing when you said romance
20:14
Speaker 1: and I really hope that my husband a reliant of
20:17
Speaker 1: his family. It's not listening right now, Romance. Are you
20:21
Speaker 1: kidding me? I mean, I think last night I slept
20:24
Speaker 1: four hours and I count on myself very lucky. Okay,
20:27
Speaker 1: now hold on, I've got I've got another fact. I've
20:29
Speaker 1: got another clue here that probably Frank Powers already knows.
20:34
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about her vehicle? Her car? Well,
20:38
Speaker 1: the car was found up at the Jacksonville International Airport,
20:42
Speaker 1: and she's a tiny woman. But the position they found
20:44
Speaker 1: the driver's seat in who was pushed back not a
20:47
Speaker 1: position you find some like I'm six foot three, I
20:50
Speaker 1: have a pushback all the way a gal who's like
20:53
Speaker 1: barely over five feet tall, she's going to have that
20:55
Speaker 1: very close to the steering wheel. And that's not the
20:57
Speaker 1: way they found front driver's seat. You know, you're making
20:59
Speaker 1: things flashed through my mind, Frank Powers. Every time David
21:02
Speaker 1: tries to get into my beat up minivan, he's six four,
21:05
Speaker 1: I'm five to one. He looks at me like I've
21:06
Speaker 1: done something wrong because he has to put the seat back.
21:09
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, go drive your own car
21:10
Speaker 1: if you don't like it. So what I don't get
21:12
Speaker 1: is even now I mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, that was
21:15
Speaker 1: a big clue for me, as as Chris Berry and
21:18
Speaker 1: I were talking about a tipping point in a case
21:20
Speaker 1: when Tara Grinstead's car seat was pushed back and she
21:25
Speaker 1: was one of those neat freaks Joe Scott Morgan. Tara
21:28
Speaker 1: Grinstead's car would still smell new, it had that new smell.
21:32
Speaker 1: Everything was pristine. But when they found her car part
21:35
Speaker 1: back in her garage the night of her disappearance, it
21:38
Speaker 1: was covered in mud and the seat was pushed back,
21:41
Speaker 1: just like Frank Powers is describing. That's a big clue, Yeah,
21:45
Speaker 1: it is. It goes to the specific nature of the
21:48
Speaker 1: way the individual that's connected to that vehicle lives their life.
21:51
Speaker 1: And that's part of the bigger narrative when you're when
21:53
Speaker 1: you're investigating a case like this, and that's a huge question. Now,
21:58
Speaker 1: if you're talking about a seat that's pushed all the
22:00
Speaker 1: way back, the presumption here is that the individual it
22:04
Speaker 1: was in it was probably a male that was driving
22:07
Speaker 1: the vehicle because the seat is so far back in
22:10
Speaker 1: its position compared to her who would have been in
22:13
Speaker 1: this car other than her who would have access to it.
22:17
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things as investigators that we're
22:19
Speaker 1: going to want to look at. You know, the reality
22:21
Speaker 1: is that that tells me she was not the last
22:24
Speaker 1: person to drive her car. Now, it could be argued
22:27
Speaker 1: she had a boyfriend and they flew off together. The
22:29
Speaker 1: car was at the airport, didn't we see that? And
22:32
Speaker 1: one of Drew Peterson's wives the car something was at
22:36
Speaker 1: the airport. I mean, that's an old straight out of
22:38
Speaker 1: the Criminal how To book. But her car's at the airport,
22:42
Speaker 1: the seats pushed back. Her pocketbook with twelve hundred dollars
22:45
Speaker 1: cash in it has found in a dumpster. I can
22:48
Speaker 1: pretty well say she didn't just leave with another guy.
22:51
Speaker 1: Then the nightmares start with baby Aaron. Baby Aaron's mommy
22:57
Speaker 1: is gone at age three. And what really concerns me
23:01
Speaker 1: is the nature of these nightmares. He tries to explain
23:05
Speaker 1: them to people, Doctor Silva. He dreams that mommy was
23:09
Speaker 1: in time out. He dreames, mommy is asleep and can't
23:12
Speaker 1: be woken up. He says Daddy put her in time out.
23:16
Speaker 1: He says all sorts of things like mommy's underwater, all
23:20
Speaker 1: sorts of scary things. And I know I keep diverting us.
23:24
Speaker 1: But we all know the case of Susan Powell. She
23:27
Speaker 1: disappeared in the middle of the night and her husband,
23:30
Speaker 1: Josh Powell, says he took the family camping. It was
23:33
Speaker 1: zero degrees that night at midnight when he went camping
23:36
Speaker 1: with his two little boys. She's never seen again. One
23:40
Speaker 1: of them draws a picture and it's Mommy in a
23:44
Speaker 1: car trunk. Now does that prove a case? No, it doesn't,
23:48
Speaker 1: Doctor Jolly Silva. The problem with Aaron's dreams and his
23:52
Speaker 1: stories is they're all over the place. Mommy's underwater, mommy's
23:56
Speaker 1: in time out, mommy's asleep in the bed, won't wake up.
23:59
Speaker 1: I mean, his stories vary too much for authorities to
24:02
Speaker 1: really take any one of them seriously, Doctor Silva. You know,
24:05
Speaker 1: the fact that he that he had repeated nightmares like
24:08
Speaker 1: that is a clear indicator that there was violent domestic violence,
24:12
Speaker 1: that he witnessed some pretty bad things happening in the home.
24:16
Speaker 1: You know, there were reports that he also said, mom
24:19
Speaker 1: daddy hurt, mommy daddy shop, mommy, daddy put mommy in
24:22
Speaker 1: time out. All of these things, But to pinpoint out
24:26
Speaker 1: to a specific memory of daddy killing mommy would be
24:31
Speaker 1: very hard, a very hard thing to prove. But he
24:34
Speaker 1: clearly had, you know, a traumatic experience in a traumatic
24:38
Speaker 1: history at age three. Those things are real. A three
24:42
Speaker 1: year old has real experiences, and clearly there was violence
24:46
Speaker 1: going on in the home. Well, this is how I
24:48
Speaker 1: had to do it. Wendy Patrick, fellow prosecutor. When you
24:51
Speaker 1: have a child witness and everyone looks at you as
24:55
Speaker 1: if you had the play when you put a child
24:57
Speaker 1: on the stand, But there's one for the prosecution to
25:01
Speaker 1: win a case, one shot to put the bad GUYE
25:03
Speaker 1: behind bars. And if you have to put a child
25:05
Speaker 1: up to do it, then you hold your nose and
25:07
Speaker 1: you put the child up there, and you're the strong one.
25:10
Speaker 1: You have to do it, and there's just really no choice.
25:14
Speaker 1: But they don't talk like we talk. For instance, I
25:16
Speaker 1: would say in felony indictments, you have to show the jurisdiction,
25:20
Speaker 1: of course, what happened as best as you can name
25:23
Speaker 1: the crime, like murder, you may not know how the
25:25
Speaker 1: crime was committed. You may not know exactly when it
25:28
Speaker 1: was committed, which is a requirement for an indictment that
25:32
Speaker 1: gives the defendant notice of when they had to defend
25:34
Speaker 1: themselves on that particular date, so they can work up
25:36
Speaker 1: an alibi, for instance. But children don't always no dates.
25:40
Speaker 1: So I would say things like, was the Christmas tree up,
25:43
Speaker 1: they had the Easter bunny come? Were you wearing short
25:46
Speaker 1: pants or in a tank top? Or were you wearing
25:49
Speaker 1: a sweater and long pants to try to get some idea,
25:53
Speaker 1: some framework to make out the indictment. They don't talk
25:57
Speaker 1: like we do. You have to unlock what they're saying
26:00
Speaker 1: it sometimes it takes a really long time, Wendy. Yeah,
26:02
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, Nancy. And that's also one of the
26:04
Speaker 1: reasons sometimes when I've why dear jury, I'd like to
26:06
Speaker 1: know whether there's anyone there that has no experience with children,
26:09
Speaker 1: because you have to have that experience to understand the
26:12
Speaker 1: way they communicate. And as you mentioned, there are ways
26:16
Speaker 1: in which you can circumstantially prove when an event occurred. Birthdays,
26:19
Speaker 1: it's gosh, especially if it's theirs, they usually remember what
26:22
Speaker 1: kind of a cake they had, so too, that establishes
26:25
Speaker 1: the kind of credibility you need to lend some credence
26:28
Speaker 1: to some of these other things that children remember, very
26:31
Speaker 1: important points, you know. Back to Frank Power's assignment manager
26:34
Speaker 1: and use for Jacksonville. Frank, So we've got air in
26:38
Speaker 1: love without a mommy. What becomes of him and dad? Michael? Well,
26:42
Speaker 1: Michael goes on with his life, and some thought that
26:47
Speaker 1: that was a little too quick when he met another
26:50
Speaker 1: woman and married her. White man, white white, white, white white.
26:55
Speaker 1: When did he meet another woman? How soon after Monny
26:58
Speaker 1: going missing? It was about a year m found another woman.
27:03
Speaker 1: And they start, is that I need a shrink on
27:06
Speaker 1: this one, doctor Silva. Why is it that women grave
27:09
Speaker 1: and grave and grave and vow they'll never love again?
27:12
Speaker 1: And then the man runs off with another woman, like
27:14
Speaker 1: in within twelve months, he's happily resettled somewhere. How does
27:17
Speaker 1: that work? Um? You know, I don't know if that
27:20
Speaker 1: would necessarily be the case for all, you know, people
27:23
Speaker 1: who split up, But in this case, there was there
27:26
Speaker 1: was clearly a lot of dysfunction going on with this man.
27:29
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if if there if he
27:31
Speaker 1: had some kind of anti social personality where he didn't
27:34
Speaker 1: really care very much about his wife, one didn't really
27:37
Speaker 1: care very much about other women in general. So he probably,
27:41
Speaker 1: you know, had no remorse and just had no feelings
27:43
Speaker 1: for the fact that his wife was gone. Long story short, Frank,
27:46
Speaker 1: isn't it true he leaves? He just told me a
27:48
Speaker 1: new fact about remarrying and relocating to North Carolina. But
27:52
Speaker 1: what about Aaron? The baby? Aaron was eventually adopted by
27:56
Speaker 1: the Frasier family. Okay, hold on, what the mom goes
28:01
Speaker 1: missing and he adopts the baby out You allowed the
28:03
Speaker 1: baby to be adopted out right, And it wasn't the
28:06
Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame side of the family that adopted him. Crime
28:20
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Michael worked as a manager and
28:23
Speaker 1: the construction supply company owned by his aunt Evan and
28:27
Speaker 1: her husband, Bonnie did their accounts. Evan claims that Michael
28:32
Speaker 1: was often abusive to Bonnie at the office. Van also
28:36
Speaker 1: says that at least once Michael's abuse became physical. One
28:41
Speaker 1: day they got into an argument and a fight in
28:44
Speaker 1: the parking lot, and she came in crying and he
28:46
Speaker 1: had slammed her hand in the door. Her nails were broken.
28:49
Speaker 1: She was very upset. At that point, Bonnie decided to
28:52
Speaker 1: leave her husband. In preparation, she opened the bank account
28:56
Speaker 1: in her own name to keep her plans secret. Bonnie
29:00
Speaker 1: at the bank statement spaniled to her at work. Evan says,
29:03
Speaker 1: Michael somehow found out and was furious. You were hearing
29:07
Speaker 1: from our friends at Unsolved Mysteries regarding the disappearance of
29:11
Speaker 1: Bonnie Hame. Throughout his life, Aaron, the three year old
29:16
Speaker 1: when Mommy goes missing, is tortured by dreams, by what
29:19
Speaker 1: he thinks recollections about what happened to his mom. He
29:24
Speaker 1: told everyone he knew, and seemingly no one would listen
29:30
Speaker 1: to Aaron Hame until finally he wins the deed to
29:36
Speaker 1: his childhood home in North Jacksonville. He goes back to
29:42
Speaker 1: the home. Listen to our friend Scott Johnson w j
29:46
Speaker 1: XT News for Jacksonville. He took possession of the home
29:49
Speaker 1: around two thousand and three and leased it to renters.
29:53
Speaker 1: Then he was planning to sell the home in twenty
29:55
Speaker 1: fourteen and was removing the pool and an external shower.
30:00
Speaker 1: You're in the dirt underneath the shower. He finds a
30:03
Speaker 1: bag accidentally busted up the bag and I saw what
30:11
Speaker 1: I describe as like something that looked like coconut. It
30:16
Speaker 1: was a fibrous material, just like a like a brown coconut.
30:19
Speaker 1: The coconut was, in fact the skull of his biological mother.
30:23
Speaker 1: I picked up the coconut object and it ended up
30:26
Speaker 1: being the top portion of her skull. I looked at it,
30:29
Speaker 1: we hand I had it in my hand. I didn't
30:31
Speaker 1: really see anything. I handed at the thad and he
30:34
Speaker 1: looked back in the hole and we could see teeth
30:37
Speaker 1: and that at that point in time, you could you
30:39
Speaker 1: could see the top portion of her eye sockets. You
30:42
Speaker 1: are hearing Aaron Ham now Aaron Frasier describing his quest
30:49
Speaker 1: ending in his own back yard. Throughout his life, he
30:54
Speaker 1: is tortured about what happened to his mom. Where is mommy?
30:58
Speaker 1: He wins back the deed to his childhood home in
31:02
Speaker 1: Jacksonville and makes this horrible, horrible discovery to doctor Chris Berry,
31:09
Speaker 1: former chief Medical Examiner with a State of Georgia. Once
31:13
Speaker 1: you've seen a human skull, you know it when you
31:16
Speaker 1: see it, you know it's not an animal skull. You
31:19
Speaker 1: know what it is. There's just some things you don't confuse.
31:23
Speaker 1: That's one of them. What would that have a look
31:26
Speaker 1: to like? It really looks round, you know, the whole
31:30
Speaker 1: top of the skull and most of the head is
31:33
Speaker 1: just round and round and smooth, and you know, he
31:38
Speaker 1: described it as thinking was a coconut, which actually makes
31:41
Speaker 1: rather sense because you know the mind looking looking at
31:46
Speaker 1: a skull, especially the top of the skull like this.
31:50
Speaker 1: On one hand, you know, the brain that you know
31:53
Speaker 1: maybe knows what it is or suspects, but you don't.
31:56
Speaker 1: The other part of your brain doesn't want to really
31:59
Speaker 1: admit that this is a human skull. Now the lower parts,
32:04
Speaker 1: and he describes seeing the orbits. Once you get down
32:07
Speaker 1: to the lower part of the skull then that it
32:11
Speaker 1: doesn't look like anything else. You know that there's the
32:14
Speaker 1: eye sockets and the cheek bones, and everything else begins
32:18
Speaker 1: to fall into place. But it's very easy to see
32:22
Speaker 1: how the initially he thought that this was something else.
32:27
Speaker 1: To doctor Sperry, how long does it take for a
32:30
Speaker 1: body buried under soil to become skeletonized, an unembalmed body
32:35
Speaker 1: like this, the buried like this within easily somewhere about
32:40
Speaker 1: six to eight months, there would be complete skeletonization. That is,
32:44
Speaker 1: all the soft tissue would be gone. It takes about
32:47
Speaker 1: a year for the greasiness on the bones to disappear,
32:53
Speaker 1: So that's A general way to tell how long a
32:55
Speaker 1: body has been buried is by looking at the bones,
32:58
Speaker 1: and if there's still greasy or waxy feeling coating on
33:03
Speaker 1: the bones, it's been less than a year. Okayna, you
33:06
Speaker 1: just tell me something new after all these years. Dger
33:09
Speaker 1: Sperry wire bones, human bones. As you say, greasy, I've
33:12
Speaker 1: never heard that before. Oh well, it's because our bodies,
33:16
Speaker 1: all of our bodies, of course, they have a lot
33:18
Speaker 1: of muscle, but we also have have fat, and the
33:22
Speaker 1: fat degenerates actually relatively slowly, and as the soft tissues
33:28
Speaker 1: the muscle, the other organs generally decompose and dissolve. The
33:34
Speaker 1: fat remains behind as just kind of a greasy, slimy residue.
33:39
Speaker 1: The bones, of course will last for years, but this
33:43
Speaker 1: slimy residue will stay on the bones until eventually, you know,
33:48
Speaker 1: it is decomposed and the bones then become clean, if
33:53
Speaker 1: you will, they may be brown discolored from being down
33:56
Speaker 1: in the ground. The greasy residue from the decomposing fat
34:02
Speaker 1: that stays apparent. Like I said, it's easily visible and
34:06
Speaker 1: you can feel it when you're feeling the bones and
34:09
Speaker 1: gloved hands. For about a year Okay, I just had
34:12
Speaker 1: to pause, al and digest everything you just told me.
34:15
Speaker 1: I give yourselthing else to digest. What came out was
34:19
Speaker 1: that police searched that yard a couple times, including the
34:22
Speaker 1: ground penetrating radar, didn't find anything, and it's believed that
34:27
Speaker 1: the body was somewhere else. And then they get a
34:30
Speaker 1: mysterious letter in nineteen ninety six that body Haymes remains
34:34
Speaker 1: were in the backyard. They never followed that up. Oh
34:37
Speaker 1: my stars, Okay, Frank Powers, assignment manager needs for Jackson,
34:41
Speaker 1: tell me that again. When the remains were found in
34:45
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, police had said, we searched that backyard a
34:49
Speaker 1: couple of times, including with ground penetrating radar, they didn't
34:52
Speaker 1: find anything. What came out was that apparently the body
34:56
Speaker 1: was somewhere else. In nineteen ninety six, don't know from who,
35:00
Speaker 1: anonymous letter came to the police department say search the
35:03
Speaker 1: backyard now because her remains are there, they never did so.
35:07
Speaker 1: In excavating and getting rid of the pool, and they
35:10
Speaker 1: come across a plastic sheeting that looks like maybe a
35:13
Speaker 1: bag he the sun now grown, breaks it open with
35:17
Speaker 1: a shovel, reaches inside and finds his own mother's skull.
35:24
Speaker 1: He says he could actually see the top of the
35:27
Speaker 1: eye socket. So the case goes to trial because who
35:32
Speaker 1: else could it have been other than Michael Ham? Right,
35:38
Speaker 1: sounds simple. Take a listen to this, right you really?
36:16
Speaker 1: You were musical physical Oh. Michael Ham was convicted over
36:41
Speaker 1: twenty years later because his son Aaron never gave up
36:48
Speaker 1: on what happened to mommy. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing
36:52
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend.