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Claude Silver: Create a Culture of Optimism & Empathy · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the lead and part of an extraordinary journey.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their old-growth mindset that they used to make things happen.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: These impactful stories will leave people motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Today we have Claude Silver, who is the Chief Heart Officer at Vayner Media, and I'm so excited to have you.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Claude.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's great to be here, Lee.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Could you give us just a brief introduction of you, your role?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerX.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Vayner Media is the advertising agency within that umbrella.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've been here eight and a half years, and my boss, Gary Vaynerchuck, and I created the role six and a half years ago.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the role was primarily set up to scale Gary, to scale empathy, to scale the heart.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And as a matter of fact, the only job description I have is to touch every single human being and infuse the agency with empathy.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: So my job is split between, you know, 80 million things, a lot of one-on-ones with people, a lot of jam sessions with people, a lot of leadership, strategic leadership discussions, resourcing, annual reviews, L D, D E I.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: But really the most important thing to me is that we are creating a culture where people feel psychologically safe and that they can connect with others.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can do that, then you find a place where you feel like you belong.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you find a place that you feel like you belong, the skies open up for you.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to stay and you want to do more and you want to be better.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously for business reasons, retention rate is high, which is great, but also innovation and the collaboration.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when you're with people that where you can have a healthy debate and healthy competition, where the atmosphere is one of warmth, friendliness, collaboration, and success, that type of atmosphere and culture will hands down be toxic culture 365 days a year.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I always get a sense when I see some of the things written and also some of the videos that it's also a very creative and collaborative environment because of the tenor that's set.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Once I saw Gary was doing kindness rounds and he was popping into the meetings because I want to make sure everyone's being kind in this meeting.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: What an interesting way to operate.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's certainly coming from the corporate world, it's no one ever dropped in to make sure people were being kind into my meetings.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not the norm, I would say, in most industries right now.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm excited that it's starting to take hold and people are starting to see this as an example of how you can be successful.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: On my wall, I'm at my work office today.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in my wall, I have something that says vulnerability is dope.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I could guarantee you that is not a little sign that everyone has in their offices out in the world.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: But hopefully soon it'll trickle in.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes you human, right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes we're not invited to be human in the workplace.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think kind of bringing that humanness and the humanity back to that because you're there a lot.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're there so much percentage of your your life.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so being able to be yourself and to be aligned with who you are, how important is that?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's huge.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to hear this.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I always ask, what's your definition of bold?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the the things that we talk about really around finding your boldness or freeing your boldness, but would love to know what your definition is.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: My definition is one of complete optimism and hope and putting yourself out there to take a risk knowing that you might fall down, but knowing that you have the inner strength and the support to get back up.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess in a nutshell, for me, the definition of bold would be taking opportunities where you can stretch, knowing that there are people around you as well as your inner pilot light to hold you up whenever needed.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's so important because I think that's the part as I talk with people and work with organizations and individuals, is the first step is all you though, right?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to figure out that you can make that step and then wow, like what's on the other side of it?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't you can't even explain it to someone.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even you in your role, like you actually quit, yeah, before you got into this role because you knew it wasn't aligned with who you were, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me how that goes.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure it was a great job, a great organization with great pay and great people, but you knew it there was misaligned.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say that was a bold move?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Huge.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was a bold move.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pivot.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was 45.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was a big deal to all of a sudden say everything I've been doing mostly for the last 18 years, great, fantastic, got me where I am, but I no longer want to do that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: It no longer fills me the actual job of being a strategist in an advertising company and finding ways to, you know, get a product in front of you.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that didn't thrill me.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: But what really was feeding me and has fed me my whole life is the interactions with people and teamwork.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really love the team aspect of it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I am so fascinated by team dynamics.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very, very humbled that I get to sit in on teams now and watch their dynamics or be a part of as part of my day job.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it was time for a pivot.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that was that took a lot of courage for me and it took a leap, knowing that I would land somewhere.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it just so happened that I landed in a wonderful lifetime opportunity to create this chief heart officer role, which you know it's it's the best title in rock and roll, but it's also the best, it's the best role for me.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I get to play to my strengths every day.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Would you consider that your first bold move, or do you have many?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know you do.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, been around for a long time.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have a brother who's 18 months younger.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say the first bold move I've made was probably, you know, tossing Cracker Jacks in his crib when he was two.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that was probably I have a very I have a risk taker inside of me.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I've always, I will say, I have always pushed the limits, even when some of those limits were were not necessarily healthy for me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I went for it anyway because I like knowing what's on the other side.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I always have liked knowing what's on the other side.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say, you know, bold move would be signing up for the 93-day outward bound course I took when I was 19.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the Wilderness Leadership Program.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Another bold move was moving to London at 40, not knowing anyone, starting again, completely starting again, hopping, you know, going to different jobs, you know, being the new kid on the block.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those are bold, I think.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would definitely, definitely say so.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So when you talk about the the wilderness that you did in a obviously a bold move, and you were very young, I think, when that was happening.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it also was a pivotal moment for you to also maybe even find what you were aligned with.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: What you do.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk just a little bit about what what were the key things when you went in, like if you looked at a before and after, what would be like this was a before claude and this was the afterclaude?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: What are the ones that come to mind for you with that bold move?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great question.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I went in, I would say I went in half a developed person.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You were young, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to say 19.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I was 19.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I had had a lot of, I had had life under me, but I hadn't, I hadn't experienced life kind of outside of my family, outside of my circle.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I had really never been on my own, if you will.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the only young woman with nine young men.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were all 18 to 20 years old.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there for 93 days.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't shower for 18 days.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you there's no toilet paper out there.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're all eating, you know, government-issued blocks of cheese.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was really intense.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I went in really not knowing a lot about myself, and I came out a much more confident person.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I came out a real leader and a servant leader at that.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I really understood what it was like to lead a team and also be the one that goes into the fire when necessary.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So some of the team dynamic piece, I bet there's some base foundational understandings of yourself and maybe even of certain concepts that one learns from that.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of us will not go through what you went through.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure I could not shower for 18 days.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mind the government cheese and eating that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um probably good for you.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: You find you're lucky, you know, you find a lake or a stream, yeah, or you find some snow and you wash yourself off.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, it is survival.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, survival is a a different, you know, vibe to be working on.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, from the the way that you worked as a team in that, I bet there's obviously there's acclamation, there's getting to know each other, there's trust, there's you name it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: What did you take out of that that you still use today?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I will be honest with you, I probably use almost everything I took out of it because we had to start with trust circles immediately.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because we were going to take care of each other in the out in the in the wilderness.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, dealing with hypothermia together, dealing with, you know, uh dehydration together, those types of things.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the trust factor, what it's like to learn how to trust at speed, which is another way to maybe call like being emotionally efficient, was something that that I really took with me and I use every minute of every day.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's for sure, I think also understanding of going to like a Maslow's pyramid, if you will, you know, understanding that in order to do anything, you need to have a sense of safety and security.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time that's within ourselves.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have that, but then to bring that energy to others is really key to let people in to trust first.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do that every single day as well.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was probably day two.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: We did trust falls.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, legit trust falls, because that's how immediately we needed to learn how to get each other's back.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and now I don't do trust falls and I don't, you know, I don't want to put anyone at that type of personal risk.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot to do, certainly at the workplace.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, I don't I don't go there in the workplace at all.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: But depending on the invitation I get from someone when I'm working with them, I can tell how far, how how honest we can get with one another.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really important.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if we're gonna do the work, human beings are messy.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're wonderfully messy people, every single one of us.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we got to get real and be okay with that mess while we're walking through whatever the experiences a person is having in the workplace or outside of the workplace.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love the term emotional efficiency, trust at speed.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's that's hard to do in a lot of situations.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Certain environments don't invite it, I would say.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think your your mess is your message.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and there's someone out there that actually connects with your messiness, most likely.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it and also you learn from others who maybe have done something that you know you've experienced too, or some former piece of it.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's some connectivity.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have this huge belief that we're all connected.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: That we all really just honestly want to be accepted and loved for who we are.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's one of the things that I think you talk about and live.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: You walk the talk.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's cool to see that you took, you know, some of those early things.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have to do a trust file, but I remember one of my graduate schools made us all go out together and I had to jump off a phone pole while someone was tethering me.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember telling my mom, don't worry, I'm not going to do it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up being like the first one to do it because I just wanted to get it over with.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there's different ways to earn trust for sure.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, that repelling is awesome.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you do those things, and I just think there's such adrenaline we get, but you also need to take a deep breath and then go for it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't need to be anything as magnificent as a telephone pole, uh, repel or trust fall or rafting down a class five rapid.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, it's getting on the subway.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for some people, it's walking in the front doors of work.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the more we get to know ourselves and find that self-awareness, which is a lifelong journey, I really do feel like the more we get to trust ourselves, yeah.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, self, I'm not gonna put you in to a terrible situation, not gonna do that to you.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can trust me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And part of your definition of bold was that there's people there that want to see you succeed, who want to help you, who can offer a hand or advice.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's also people that may be critical, and you know, there's the opposite of that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: But there's more good than bad.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think we hear or inundated with the negative so much that sometimes I think we think that may be all that's out there, you know.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the messaging also that of positivity and optimism and survival or success isn't one that you see a lot of.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: You see more so I think things that create create fear potentially.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just want to say one thing.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not only that there are cynics out there that's gonna doubt you, but you're gonna doubt you.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so what are you gonna do with it in those moments?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I mean, like that's a really phil philosophical question, but it is one that I like to talk about with our people here because I just believe if if we're not having those important talks and conversations, where are they where are they happening?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: You spend so much time at work, where are they happening then?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think being able to actually find the roles, I bet as you talk to people, and this happens, I think, in different people's careers too, is what moved me like five years ago isn't what's moving me today, similar to to your role change that you had.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you were rocking and rolling in your role, but you knew it wasn't actually what was filling you or providing the highest levels of joy.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you knew you had to make a choice.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't need to be the forever choice, it just needed to be something different.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I always say to people, sometimes better is good.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like just try better.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be the best yet, but you're doing something that's a change.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as you're encouraging people to kind of think about are they in a in a role that moves them or even understanding how to assess, am I happy about what I'm doing in my role?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: What are key things you look for with your staff or even with yourself?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for sure, Sunday scaries, yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Monday scaries, Tuesday scaries.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think those of us that know what it's like to have anxiety before you go to work the next day because it's a toxic culture, you're you imposter syndrome, you feel like you're gonna get found out or your voice is gonna get squashed, fill in the blank, all of those things.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's something I definitely look for in myself, but I I certainly ask people here.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we have a culture where we trust first, and it's very easy for me to sit here and say, hey, we trust you first.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, take a deep breath.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's very challenging for people to really believe that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, it's okay, we trust you.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like you got hired.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go, let's make some magic together.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, the Sunday scaries.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think someone that is not show, obviously not showing up to meetings or not putting camera on, a little bit of despondency, not putting their best foot forward.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Those are things that you know we look for, of course.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: People that are shrinking, and you can notice that on a Zoom very easily.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Who's shrinking, who hasn't spoken up in the last three meetings, who is that introvert that we want to, we want to honor their introversion, but we really want to hear their voice.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a this is a relationship, you know, work is a relationship where we are agreeing to give you opportunities at bats, growth, development, teaching, learning, moving up the ladder, so forth and so on.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you are agreeing to give us your incredible heart and mind and your energy for eight hours a day.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I really I look for people's energy.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had someone that I was meeting with today who was like the brightest light of the world and didn't want to leave this room and wanted to keep on talking, and we were having a great jam session.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a conversation with someone earlier today who I just said, listen, I'm not sure if this role is making you happy.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I that person wasn't at a place where they wanted to engage with me on that conversation.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So even though I'm well aware that that person is not satisfied right now, I guess I meandered quite a bit, but I I look to see where people I believe are probably being a little bit inauthentic with themselves.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where the energy is.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can you can see it, you can feel it, you can observe it as long as you're you're being aware too.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one thing that I think is important.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and my experience with human resources throughout, and you don't even use that word, but I mean you you're kind of I think in that function of some way.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love the way that you title it, and I think it has a totally different definition than I've ever experienced, but it it doesn't always feel as welcoming or as aware potentially, because you're not only a representative of the organization, you're also a representative of your people.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the duality that this role plays that I don't think every role that I've been around has played it that way.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think first and foremost, it is 51% the people, 49% the company.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a sliver uh of a difference, but that sliver makes so there's so much that goes on in that 1%.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: We want this to be the best career experience of someone's life.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can't make it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can provide, we can provide, we can give them the soil here to cultivate what they want.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we need them to meet us on that journey.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just like when people are asking today, and they're telling us they're burnt out and they need this and they need that.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have tons of programming, but I can't make anyone show up to that or to log on to the meditations.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I don't have that that power, of course.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that gets us into an entirely different conversation, you know, of behavior change, which goes back to self-awareness and self-actualization, which is quite bold.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just quite bold, or just quite bold.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like when you realize, like I know I was in my 30s when I had my first coaching experience, and I don't know if this is a good practice to have or not, but we did this red light, green light activity.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you just meet your group, you go in, and then you get hit with these questions.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Would you work with this person?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Does this person seem approachable?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all based on surface level stuff that is extremely shallow from a very quick intro.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like you see people make a judgment about no, I don't want to work with you.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, she's not someone I would want on my team, no, she doesn't seem collaborative.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was I just remember like being horrified.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I don't know if I recommend this.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say just self-awareness of like, oh wow, like I really thought I was approachable, or I thought that everyone would see that I'm this or that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it what I've learned now that I'm 50 is like I don't really care what other people think.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know if that's good or bad, but like it's all about like starting with me.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I used to think that was the world's job to figure me out and work with me, but now it's like my job to know who I am and figure out how to navigate the world.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like unfortunately, it didn't hit me until 49, but it was hey, I'm glad it came, you know.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, it's gonna hit you at 49 or it's gonna hit you at your last breath.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, whenever it comes, it it comes.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's so incredibly spot on.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is our it's not only sure, it's our obligation, it's our job, but it's our joy to figure us out.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that knowing that I've had many ups and downs in my life, and knowing that we're speaking to many people who might be in a down right now.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it might not be joyful, but you never know what joy is if you don't feel that other stuff.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you said one time every heart needs a bit of mending from time to time.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Every heart, that is the truth.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a great quote.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I wrote that down because there are imperfect days, there are ups and downs, there's days that have ups.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Downs and ups, like it just depends.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think being kind to ourselves, like starting there, I think sometimes as I work with people, and I bet as you work with your staff and others, sometimes their hardest critic is themselves and the biggest noise is between their ears.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think being able to have that, I think what you call emotional bravery to kind of get it out and understand to have that conversation with you and to say, yeah, I I really don't like my job anymore.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And is there a way we could figure something out?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I bet you'd be like, sure, let's what do you like to do, or like where do you want to go?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or like help me understand what you didn't like about this job.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And oh yeah, you have to have that bravery there, I think, to kind of move it forward.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I've seen you talk about is emotional optimism.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me what the definition of that is?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you have a groovy sweatshirt, so everyone should see the link below to get the sweatshirt.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's also optimistic rebel.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about both of those.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're both things that I would consider myself.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: If I had to label myself, for me, you know, we've been talking about emotional optimism.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually what we've been talking about, which is the ability to feel your feelings and not become your feelings.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to feel your feelings and know that it's going to get better.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: There is hope.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in my definition of bold, I told you I use the word optimism.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, an emotional optimist is one that is literally understanding that it is a bad day.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bad moment.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just got triggered.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had a fight with whomever before I even got into work today.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not who I am.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Those are those are feelings that I have.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's not who I am.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there are people out there that I can go to for support if I need it, but that the sun will shine again, that I will rise again.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not always going to be in the valley.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not always going to be.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason that it's so important is we, myself included, so often define ourselves by our feelings.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sad, I'm mad, I'm grumpy, I'm depressed, I'm anxious.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, that situation has made me really angry.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Situation is making me really anxious and on edge, but not putting that label on you because the label is very, very strong.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I did a post once on, you know, labels are meant for soup cans, not for human beings.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I really believe that.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you already hinted on this, the world's gonna label you like it or not.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you gonna, what are you gonna label yourself?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, something that is dynamic and fluid and it's yours.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, uh emotional optimism, the ability to literally know that the feelings that you have right now are not you and they will pass in time with support, with compassion.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: The optimistic rebel is I I just that's me.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am a fighter for what is possible.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fighter for the new day.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fighter for that person that is literally in their own purgatory today.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fighter for that person who is at the bottom of the ocean and doesn't feel like they can come up.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like not only have I been there, which I am able to empathize with others, but I just know that there will always be hope.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because, and we alluded to this already, there are people that wake up every single day rooting for us that we don't even know about.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even talk about such a concept like that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I've known that I was gonna get on the this call with you for weeks.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew it on Friday, I knew it today.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, I've been putting great energy out there, you know, and we've never met in our life.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there are people that that do that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: We we, you know, our energy introduces us way before our voice does.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there are people that are rooting for us every single day.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm one of those people.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I definitely love that our energy is connected and being able to connect on that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one thing people may not understand is, you know, maybe there's not someone texting you or you don't see it in black and white, but you have to know there are people out there.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have people who are kind of in your face, like you're cheerleaders, and are going, which are always helpful to know you know they're there for you.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, especially I think when you do things like change a job or leave a relationship or launch something that's never been done before, like people who may not understand it, but man, they're just so happy you're happy.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was something that I experienced when I made the change that I did, which we talked briefly about, is I realized like when I left the corporate world and was doing my own thing, which is still with people in business and organizations, which I love, but some people weren't actually happy about it.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't happy I was happy, and I I knew very quickly, and it hurt a little, but I needed to actually kind of cut the string because our commonality was struggle, our commonality was be frustrated, or our commonality was you know, complaining, or whatever it was.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have that anymore, so then we had nothing in common.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is so true, and I think also COVID brought that into the forefront for many of us as well, which is who are your friends?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like who are your core people that you will set up those Zooms with?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, who you're gonna have that happy hour with, or just like exactly five of 10 minutes.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was interesting what we would do to just connect, because even though it was through a screen, we still need it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I still for sure.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the things you also talk about, which I think is important for many people, is the intentionality of ritual.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, when you think about your rituals or or being intentional about creating one's own rituals, you know, to find alignment or to find better health or to find happiness.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: What are key things that people should understand about the power of ritual?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as soon as you mentioned that, I was like, yes, I have a ritual every day.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I get up and I have coffee immediately.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a ritual, and I look forward to it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and then I, you know, I have other rituals that I do in the workplace and whatnot.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And before I have tough conversations, I have a ritual with myself.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: The purpose of ritual is to get into the habit of doing something that will provide you with blank peace, calm, uh, like you're Rocky and you can conquer it all, Eye of the Tiger.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: A ritual is something that you do often enough.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's actionable and it becomes habitual.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something you can always rely on, almost like a mantra, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can always come back to that to center, come back to that to connect with your team, come back to that to connect with your partner, whatever that may be.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, whether or not it's a ritual of every single day on a Monday stand-up call, you and your team are talking about, you know, quickly, uh, you know, what did you cook for dinner, or what did you binge on TV, or what's one word that you for today, whatever it is, it just kind of like levels everything.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's an equalizer, I think, also, and then lets you proceed from a place of normalization, if you will, because this is nothing is normal right now.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're figuring it out.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the the intentionality behind ritual is what's needed.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Ritual doesn't become ritual just because you say, my ritual is reading before bed every night, because you're not going to read before bed every night.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Unless there's something in it for you to make you feel better, like I said, more calm, more at peace, make you feel like the incredible Hulk, whatever it is you want to feel and whatever it is you want to bring to that unit, that team that you're a part of.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I bring this up because I think it connects to being bold and also to helping other people maybe free their boldness.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I remember someone saying, I'm not bold.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing about me that's bold, and I've never done anything bold.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, huh, I bet there is.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's, you know, kind of talk through it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's um, and then once you start talking through it, the things that you hear and you're like, holy smokes, like I could have never done that.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would have not been able to survive what you survived.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you never know until you're in those situations where people may just need a door opening.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes ritual helps people go, This is my safe place.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can talk about that show I watched, or that meal I cooked, or that place I went, or you know, we have some things like that, but I think having something that's on a regular basis for your team and for yourself, yeah.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's connected to your purpose or aligned with something that either is going to help you figure things out or align with more joy that you have already.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I totally agree.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think back to the alignment, I think ritual is should not be a chore.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that you you want to do because it is good for you, the world, the team, the company, your children.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when I I hear you say, you know, you've talked to some people that are like, I'm not bold at all.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just was thinking, have they had children?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Their parents?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Both have they both a child of someone, like I'm you know, my parents are really hard to wrangle.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mine too.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have my parents in their mid-70s, but they don't listen to a word I say.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be the same way with my daughter.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: But and I think it's important again, just that it's not a task.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that you know, that just brings you joy or brings you clarity or brings you forward into something.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Brings you forward, yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would advice would you give to someone who is working to rewrite their story to begin again, to think through, like, yeah, I feel out of alignment.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like your car, you know it's out of line, you take your hands on the steering wheel and it goes like left.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh man, I should have hit those bumps as fast as I did.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what advice would you give to someone?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: The main thing that dawned on me immediately when you said that is something I said to a friend this weekend who was going through a funny time with her boyfriend, a lot of drama.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, you know, why don't you just try to close your eyes for a second and ask yourself, what is it that you need right now?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you need?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that in itself is bold because to close your eyes and get away from the distraction of the phone or whatever takes a lot of courage anyway, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big step, especially if that phone is an extension of you.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what is it that you need?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: A hug?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you need to feel safe?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: How can you feel safe right now in your home?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: How can you feel the warmth of a hug?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that laying in bed for a few?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is it hugging a pillow?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so first and foremost, really trying to figure out what you need.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can't figure that out, and that's totally cool now, that's totally cool and understandable, making sure that there's other people that you have another person or support system to help you through some of these pivots that you want to make.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because even when I was pivoting, I worked with a coach.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really did.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I really needed to be able to articulate what I thought, you know, my body of evidence was that I was worthwhile, you know, worthy of taking on this role.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I too have, you know, limiting beliefs in imposter syndrome.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So support is really extremely helpful.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are some people out there that are just going to go ahead and do it.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna take the bold step forward and they're not gonna think about it because that's just not the way they're organized.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also everything, everything is okay.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are no, I don't think there's a right and wrong way to go about being bold and taking those first steps.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think if you're a person that second guesses yourself or has moments of doubt, then share your desires or your dreams or your wishes with other people so that they can get on board and not like hold you accountable like you're in trouble, but like somewhat be an accountability partner.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you said you wanted to want to get on the Peloton three times this week.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: How did it go?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, maybe just next week.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Try once then.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: The the thing about what we're talking about is life opens up for you.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Life will open up for you.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Life, I really believe in so many ways, is just waiting for us to take that next step to bring momentum and action to whatever road we're on.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think you hear people say, you know, a rejection is a redirection, and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it happens, you're like, holy smokes, like this really was what I was supposed to do.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all easy, like I but it feels more, and I use the word and probably too much, aligned, but it is this like feels right.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some of it you have to unlearn things, right?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to unlearn like how you thought or how you talked to yourself.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a lot of self-talk that I think can be negative that also prohibits you from maybe making that move.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's some key things that you not only have to realize there's people out there, and like how do you identify how you feel safe or what you need and taking that time to do it, but there's things you need to stop doing most likely or unlearn your own behavior.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree with that?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: A thousand percent.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: We need to get very conscious about the fact that we sabotage ourselves.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's the deal.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: We do that to ourselves at times by not saying yes, being a cynic, not seeing the other side of the coin.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: When I moved to London, my grandmother, my nana, said to me, Say yes to every invitation.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was really difficult for me.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I made myself do it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I would not have had a life in London.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have known anyone.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I would have, like, you know, been a hermit or something.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the moral of that story is we control us.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Only you control you, only I control myself.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: We like to give that power to others often.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to take a bold step and take your power back and do something with that is probably one of the boldest steps you can make for yourself.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Own your power, take it back, empower yourself.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about being powered, power up, you know.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Power up, my friend.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the new mug I'll make.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hashtag power up.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: It has been lovely talking with you.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time today.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: All the information about Claude is below.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: For anyone who wants to learn more, thank you very much.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the lead, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with bold ways.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.