Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / 013: Tithe

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013: Tithe · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: All right, man, let's get into it today. Pj: Let's talk about it, brother. Randy: Alright, so let's talk about the tithe. I'm sure this is a topic that everyone's been waiting to hear. What do these guys think about the tithe? Pj: Yeah, man, Thailand is one of those funny topics. know, people definitely feel certain types of ways about it, you know, and and it brings up a lot of, you know, awkwardness for for a lot of people, even in circles that I've been in, you know, talking to certain people. And I've had people ask me, hey, what do you what do you think about Thailand? And, know, I have my own personal feelings and I know others do too. So I'm interested to kind of hear yours and and then maybe get some feedback on. Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: you know, what y'all think out there. Randy: Yeah, this guy I used to work with, I also consider him a friend of mine. I think it was about a year ago or so when my engine blew up on me in my Jeep and I had to pay for a whole new engine. The first thing he said to me was, you see, that's what happens when you don't tie it. And I was like, man, I was like, how do you know if I tied or not? And he was just like, that's what happens when you don't tie it. I was like, all right, I guess. Pj: Thank All right. Randy: I guess that's all you needed to know was that my engine blew up and therefore I must not be tithing. Pj: that thing that's hmm yeah i don't remember that Randy: But he, he probably got a good feeling for where I stand on it because I told him that, one of the reasons why I didn't like his church, ⁓ not that I ever went on a Sunday, but I did go for other activities at his church was because he had told me that his pastor preaches on the tithe every single week. He's like every week, my pastor's like, make sure you're giving that 10%, make sure you're tithing, make sure you give tithes and offerings. And he said that his pastor just hammers that every week. And I was like, okay, man, I was like, cause I really like your church. Other than that, like you guys do good activities. There's always concerts and speakers and things going on. said, but yeah, yeah. He's got, yeah. ⁓ but I think, me and Isabel went for, they had like a couples night for Thanksgiving. There was a concert we went to, ⁓ and they host like, you know, speakers and things like that. And, and I said, man, I really like a lot of things that your church is doing. Pj: ⁓ yeah, he's pushing that basket around. He has the funds to do whatever he wants apparently. Randy: They're doing a lot of positive stuff. But when he started telling me about that, I was like, yeah, it's like, I don't think I could attend a church that hammers this so, so hard every week. So he must've just made the assumption then that when my car broke down, it's because, you know, I had it been dropping enough in the basket. Pj: Yeah. Yeah, but for one, mean, I don't remember where God's like, hey, listen, if you're not, if you're not putting a couple of dollars in there, then you know what? I'm going to start making things go bad for you. But but I will say, you know, the the last church that I was attending, that was one thing that I was I was pretty impressed with was the fact that, mean, in in the two years and some changes that I went there, man, he maybe mentioned. you know, money once or twice, like, but never really, you know, that was, you know, never really a thing. And I think, ⁓ you know, the only time he ever even really mentioned anything about Ty then was to kind of talk to the to the point of why he doesn't have a basket. And you know I mean? Like pass around. And man, I respected that because I mean, even, you know, and I guess not to say that there's anything wrong with passing a basket, you know, it's up to the person whether or not they want to or can. But but, you know, I even remember being younger. Right. So whenever I guess the expectation was not even so high. But, know, you're sitting there and the person to your left puts in some money and then the basket gets to you and you got nothing to put in there and then you pass it off and they put money and you feel like crap. You're like, ⁓ well, apparently Randy: Right, right. Pj: You know, yeah, 100%. You know, it's like, apparently I don't love the Lord as much as y'all do because I came in here with empty pockets, you know. Randy: Peer pressure. Yeah. Well, you I don't remember ⁓ who I was in church with, but I remember going to Catholic church as a kid. And I thought the rule rule was you put a dollar in there when the basket came, because that just seemed to be the standard. Everybody was doing it. Everyone was putting one dollar. And I just remember thinking, OK, that's what we do when the basket comes. We put one dollar. I don't remember learning any more about it at that time. Just that was the thing to do. I don't know if that's like a Catholic tradition tradition and all Catholics do that. Or if that was just, you know, person I was with or the place that I was at. Pj: Yeah, I don't remember that part. I definitely remember them. They pass around a little gold plate, though. You know what mean? So it's and I think I think they got to dump it sometimes, you know, just to pass it back. But ⁓ yeah, man, I don't remember for sure. It's been a while. Randy: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you, there's been a couple of churches that I've gone to, that we've gone to in the last few years that have had a really good approach to tithing and, you know, especially when it came to preaching about it from the pulpit, right? you know, I'll hold back from saying the names of churches when I might have some criticism, but because I think this is really good, I'm going to say that this was at Two Rivers Church. That was one of the churches that I remember. And I think there was another one as well. But they essentially said, look, you know, as the as your pastors, we don't know who gives what. That's between you and God. And we purposely don't want to know. So, you know, they said something to the effect of, you know, if you've been giving a whole lot and you're waiting for me to like give you a call and thank you, it's not going to happen. And if you're not giving anything and you're waiting for me to give you a call and like criticize you, that's not going to happen either, because like we purposely don't want to know. We keep that to the elders and the leadership team, you know, to sort through that. But as your pastoral staff, we don't know, we don't care. Pj: Right. that's how it should be, Like realistically, you know, and I guess for the people who would be waiting to get the call to get the pat on the back doesn't sound like they're given for the right reasons either, I guess. Randy: Well, mean, yeah, and I'll tell you, I've also remember as a very young man, I worked at a call center and right next to me was a pastor who also worked at the call center and he was he was one of the pastors at his church. He wasn't the main pastor. So I don't know if he collected a salary. If he did, I'm sure it probably wasn't much, which is why he worked at the call center where I worked. And I will say that this guy He showed up with excellence. mean, he was the model. They recorded him for like training purposes. Literally the call center was recording this guy because he was such a good example of how to like be pleasant and positive and, and, and treat your customers. But I remember talking to him cause you know, he knew I was a Christian. I knew he was a pastor and he invited me to go to his church, which I never did attend. But one of the things that I remember about this guy and I won't say his name or what church he went to. Pj: you Randy: But he told me that when you became a member of their church, that you had to submit your W-2s and that they wanted to make sure that you were not only giving 10%, but you were giving 10 % of your gross, not of your net, because they wanted to hold their congregation accountable to the tithe. So that's how far some churches take it. So one example I just mentioned, we have a church that says, hey, that's between you and God. I don't even want to know about it. Another church says, give us your... W2. So there's a wide spectrum of how Christians are handling the tithe. Pj: Right. a hundred percent. So what, what do we have a definition? I guess it would probably have to be a biblical definition of, what tithing actually is because according to Google right here, the definition of tithing is the practice of taking or paying a tithe. I'm like, well, that's a, that's a circular. Randy: Yeah. there you go. Does it get any more straightforward than that? Pj: Right. and so ⁓ this down here says, ⁓ according to ⁓ Christianity.com, ⁓ the term tithe means 10th. And tithe refers to the practice of giving 10 % of one's income or resources to the church or religious community. Now, also going back to ⁓ Google's definition of tithing, they don't really specify here what Randy: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj: if this is just like the US or if this is globally, but this says according to Google that receipts from tithing range from 2.5 billion with a B to 4.3 billion each year tithing. Randy: Okay, okay. All right. Well, let me let me jump in there because ⁓ I did a little research myself and I can't I'm gonna mispronounce this word but according to ⁓ the research I did again to confirm what you said biblically the word tithe literally means a tenth ⁓ but specifically it's a tenth of one's increase not a tenth of everything they own just a tenth of their increase so essentially their income Pj: Hmm, got you. Randy: Right? Not a tenth of everything you're worth, but a tenth of what you have over this year over last year. And it comes from a Hebrew word, which I'm going to mispronounce, which is something like Ma-a-ser, which translates into tenth. so. It's spot on. That's that's someone correct us in the comments. If you have a ⁓ phenomenon, a phonetic spelling that would probably probably be helpful. What I'm looking at is like M.A. apostrophe A.S.E.R. Pj: That's spot on. That's spot on. Randy: Ma'asir, I don't know. But it's mainly, you know, in the Hebrew Bible, it was mainly focused on crops, livestock, income, anything really from the land ⁓ that a person might count as part of their increase. And the purpose was really to support the Levites who were the priest and all of the temple services and the care for the poor and the teaching of the word of God and things like that. Pj: Yep, didn't, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, didn't tithing start with Melchize deck? Or was? Randy: That, yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's the very first reference to tithe. It probably is, but it does say that Abraham tithed ⁓ to Melchizedek, right? Pj: I think so. to Malkyzek ⁓ Randy: Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. so obviously, you know, Melchizedek was definitely someone of importance, right? And I know a lot of people think he was like a ⁓ pre incarnate version of Christ or something like that. Pj: Well, I think, I think there's actually debate on whether or not he was like a Christophany, like whether or not he was Christ because it doesn't give him a beginning or an end kind of thing. there's, there's, some back and forth, which we, won't necessarily get into all that. ⁓ Randy: Right, right. Right. Yeah, we'll save. We'll save the speculation on that for another time. We'll stick with tithe for today. So you mentioned the total tithe that's collected annually, right? I don't know if you have this debt in front of you, but did you know that on average Christians give anywhere between two and a half to 4 % of their income to tithe? Pj: Alright. I didn't know that. It's wild. And I don't know if this is maybe jumping the gun, but I can tell you one thing that, you know, I feel like really got put onto my heart. and made me look at tithing in a different way is, you know, I guess traditionally for those people who do know what tithing is, is it they make that synonymous with money. And what I realized is there's more ways to tie than just, you know, pulling your wallet out. Because at one point, I mean, full transparency, I was very much... felt like the Lord, you know, I'd surrendered being very much focused on money and as the gauge in which I measured myself. And I surrendered that to the Lord and was like, you know what, you know, I know that you'll you'll take care of me. And, you know, so I just I was trusting in him. And then I saw, you know, I was making progression. went from working at a job where, you know, I was bringing in like a thousand plus less dollars like So I was making at least a thousand less dollars a month than my bills were and God was still providing. And so whenever I got to the point where I was making enough money to where I could pay my bills and buy a pizza, I was like, shoot, I want to tie this money. And so I approached it very, you know, whenever I guess, or early on, would say. from a very legalistic, I was like, you know, I told my wife, I want to give 10 % of my check before taxes, you know, and that's the approach that I took. And I did that for, I don't know, not very long. And then, you know, she and I had a conversation and, you know, we kind of talked about it and, you know, she actually is the one that kind of opened my eyes up. She was like, you know, I... She does helps out with children ministry. ⁓ She cleans the church, you know, her and her and some of other girls. ⁓ They rotate on a schedule. And also, you know, we would pitch in for like buying, you know, supplies, paper towels, toilet paper, soap for the bathroom, cleaning supplies, stuff like that. And so she was like, you know, I know you want to just just give 10 percent for she's like, and if that's what you want to do, that's what I'll do. But she's like, just understand that, you know, there's other ways to tithe, is, you know, time and, and service and, and, and help. So. Randy: Yeah. Well, well, let me just jump in and say, you know, ⁓ thanks sharing your experience. But I would say that Christians probably would disagree with you ⁓ on statement about how, ⁓ you different ways there are to tithe. I wouldn't personally, because, and I'll tell you why in a minute, you know, in terms of what I think about the tithe. But ⁓ I there's a lot of Christians and a lot of churches out there who would probably say that, look, All those other things are maybe an offering above and beyond the tithe, but you need to be strict about like 10%, you know, income as your tithe. And then the other things that you mentioned, whether it's time or providing resources or giving to other charities and things like that, um, that would be an offering. And I'm not saying I adhere to that, but I've heard that, um, from different churches that I've been a part of. I've heard churches say, you know, no, your 10 % needs to go to the, to the church that's feeding you. Pj: Yeah, definitely. Randy: That's for the pastor's salary. That's to keep the lights on in the building all that sort of stuff And then all those other things would be extra so just throwing that out there that you know There's definitely a different you know a lot of different ways that you know people are looking at tithe Pj: Well, and I guess let's clarify because I mean, that is another thing that I have seen in, certain churches is, is they don't call it tithing. They call it an offering. So I guess what would be, I mean, I, to me, I, I would say they're the same thing, but I could see how somebody would delineate the two, like, Nope, you know, tithing offering. Like, you know what I mean? I can, I can see that, that, that separation. don't, I don't necessarily look at it like that, but I can see how people would. Randy: Sure, sure. Yeah, so I. Right. And I think if we were going back to the Old Testament, the offerings seem to be pretty specific. There's the burnt offerings, there's green offerings, peace offerings, sin offerings. And I think the main difference is that this is your free giving above the 10 percent. And I think that most Christians typically use that same mindset today is that, you know, those things would be offerings above and beyond, just like those burnt offerings would have been in addition to you know, any tithing that the Jews would have done under the Levitical priesthood. Pj: Well, you know, it's funny because whenever I was thinking about this earlier today, you know, I remember in the previous episode, you said something to the effect of, know, isn't it funny how we call it spending time? You know what mean? And so in the same kind of context, I look at it like, you know, if you're going to take time, I mean, and it did, you know, I mean, either way, my wife would would drive, make a two hour round trip there and back to to clean. Randy: Mm. Pj: You know what mean? Amongst having other things. so, I mean, like I said, whenever we talked about it, was like, OK, that, you know, we are contributing to the church in more ways than just what we're putting into the drop box, you know? ⁓ So, yeah. Randy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure, sure. Let me just back up a little bit because I did want to just quote a couple of verses that we maybe skipped over a little bit when we were defining tithe. So just for everyone's at a vacation out there who might be wanting to throw something in the chats, please do leave the comments. Your verses on tithe, if I miss any, but Leviticus 27.30 says, tithe of everything from the land belongs to the Lord. Deuteronomy 14.22 says, Pj: Absolutely. Randy: Well, basically explains how the tithe support the Levites foreigners orphans and widows We'll come back to that in a second Malachi 3 10 says bring the whole tithe into the store storehouse and ultimately, you know, it like we mentioned it is the tenth of You know your increase and you know, that's where Leviticus 27 makes it specific It's you know, everything from the land that belongs to the Lord right? It's a tenth of that increase That were that were focused and specifically on if we're talking you know, under the Levites. And, you know, I think if you think about what that was being used for, so going back to Deuteronomy, you know, it says to support the Levites, the foreigners, the orphans, the widows, that brings me to, you know, the purpose of the old covenant tithe, which if you, if you think about it in under the old covenant, this was really the, you know, ancient Hebrews taxes that they paid, right? They didn't have taxes necessarily that they paid ⁓ to like a government, right? I don't know if they did or not, but I know this was basically their taxes. And if you think about what their taxes was going to, it was supporting the priests who were in charge of the temple. It was for taking care of the widows and the orphans and the poor, ⁓ and basically for the teaching, so the education of the people. So a lot of what our taxes go to today, which I know like my property tax, for example, which tripled when I moved from Colorado to St. Louis. pretty much all goes to the education system, the paying salaries of teachers and faculty and staff and getting the education to the kids, roads, highways, all these things, Welfare systems, food stamps, all these kinds of things. It's kind of similar in my opinion, the taxes that we pay to our government when you compare it to what the Levites were doing with the Tide. ⁓ Pj: Yeah. You know, I like that verse. Would it whenever I think it was Peter asked Jesus about paying the taxes and he's like, whose face is on that corn? No, give it to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. So, you know. Randy: Right, right. Yeah, now and see that was a little bit later, right? So, you know, you're right to say that they, yeah, they were paying taxes, you know, ⁓ to the Romans. ⁓ I guess it'd be good for us to look up if they paid taxes, you know, other than to the Levites before the Roman occupation. So I'm thinking like, you know, under the kings, did they pay any sort of taxes? Pj: Yeah, absolutely. was lot lighter. absolutely. I'd imagine so. Randy: Yeah. But it sounds like a lot of the purpose of the tithe, ⁓ you know, was going to similar purposes purposes as our taxes do today. That was kind of where I was thinking when I was reading through, you know, the purpose of the tithe back then. I think another purpose of the tithe that's not explicitly mentioned ⁓ is more of a practical reason, a practical purpose, which is just to teach money management, right? Like management of resources. Like if you're able to actually set aside a tenth and not spend Pj: All right. Randy: everything that you have, I think that's probably a good idea, right? And, and if you're, you're able to do that, you're probably going to have discipline that's going to, you know, make you more successful in other areas of life, especially with money, because that is one of the hardest areas. That's one of the hardest things to do is not just spend everything you have, but actually save some or, or, you know, put some aside for some sort of, ⁓ you know, offering. Pj: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, you know, also, you know, just a lesson in giving in general, you know what mean? Just, you know, and not just ⁓ money with money as a focal point, but. Randy: Right, right. So, so let's talk about the purpose of the tithe as it's taught today. And, you know, we've kind of mentioned early on different things that we've heard, ⁓ in terms of how it's being taught. And, one verse that I get, you know, I hear a lot that gets thrown around a lot is Malachi 3 10, which says, bring the full tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house. And therefore put me to the test says the Lord of hosts. If I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down a blessing. Until there is no more need so I hear that verse a lot where people say hey This is the one time where God says to put him to the test and it has to do with the tithe What do you think about that first when you hear that first today? Pj: Man. ⁓ I don't, I really, I don't know to be honest with you. That's, I mean. I really don't know. mean, my my whole understanding of the tide is in that second Corinthians verse. But so I mean, I really don't know how to how to Randy: Which one in 2 Corinthians? We can come back to that question. Are you talking in 2 Corinthians 9, 7? Pj: Yes, yes. So and I guess that's where, know, that's what I have heard preached more recently. And and so that's kind of what stuck with me and kind of brought me out of that old. Randy: Mm-hmm. Okay. Pj: covenant, Old Testament mind frame of like, oh, it has to be 10 % has to be more legalistically, know, which is for context, second Corinthians nine seven is each one must give as he decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God's love for God loves that cheerful giver. And so that's basically, you know, it's like, man, you know, as long as you're you're giving, you know, kind of like we mentioned multiple times, it's just it all Randy: Right. Right. Right, right. Pj: falls back to the posture of the heart, know, the motivation behind what you're doing and why you're doing it. So, yeah. Randy: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say, and I mostly align with that verse as well. ⁓ you know, ⁓ disclosure, you know, we're just two regular guys here. Neither one of us are pastors. ⁓ not priest. We don't have any sort of credentials by our name. Neither one of us ⁓ been to ⁓ school or whatever they call it, theology school or ⁓ Yeah. Pj: And neither one of us, neither one of us apparently believe that we have to give 10%. Randy: Well, well, I mean, so going back to what you said about, you know, the legalism. I definitely do think that, you know, when I hear things quoted like that, when I hear Malachi 3 10, two things jumps, jumps out at me. I first thing that jumps out at me is, okay, this is a commandment given under the old covenant. We're no longer under the old covenant. We're under the new covenant. So what does a new covenant say? And I would say that it's verses like second Corinthians nine, seven. They give me a better perspective personally. of what the new covenant expects from us, which is, and I've heard pastors say it this way, ⁓ you know, God, you know, if, and I forget exactly how they say it, but they're kind of paraphrasing this verse when they say something to the effect of like, you know, God doesn't want what you don't want to give or something like that. In other words, like he wants you to give it cheerfully and he wants you to give it out of faith and he wants you to sow into the kingdom and not to do it begrudgingly or out of any legalism. If that's where you're at, just keep it. God doesn't need your money essentially, right? Pj: Right, Randy: ⁓ so that's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear that is like, what does the new covenant say? And then the other thing I hear is, you know, well, it's second half of that verse says, if, you know, I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. And I think, okay, well, what does the new covenant say about blessings? Well, I, I forget the verse, but you know, ⁓ The new covenant tells me I have everything that I need for life and godliness. I've been given every spiritual blessing. What more do I need today? And then, you know, under the new covenant from God, I really don't need anything else from God. He's already given me, he's given me his spirit. What else do I need from him? And to me, the answer is nothing. So therefore, if I read in this verse, I'm seeing, okay, if I do this legalistic thing, I'm going to get a blessing I already receive. ⁓ versus the new covenant that says like, Hey, you've already been given everything. Whatever you give now should be out of love. It should be out of your desire to you know The desire of your heart and not under any kind of compulsion. It should be cheerfully Pj: Absolutely. Absolutely. And man, know, realistically in that way, I feel like that's a blessing in and of itself, man. Like I, you know, I like thinking about, like you said, you know, even the way that they did it, you know, for the, for the widower and stuff like that. Like, and, know, you don't never know what people are going through. I mean, you know, a lot of people who are in these situations are, you know, I wouldn't even necessarily say that they're prideful about it, but they're just, they're just not complainers, man. They're not They're not, quiet about it. You know what mean? They're not going to openly ask and it might necessarily just be out of pride, but just out of like, man, I don't want to bother nobody with my issues. And so like you said, giving with a good heart and sowing into the kingdom and taking something that God has, you know, basically allowed you to do and being able to, to, to, you know, Bless somebody else, I just I mean, I love it. I mean, there there's a lot. There's a lot of just. I don't know, it just it just makes my my heart happy. Randy: Yeah. Well, and I will say that, you know, I mentioned earlier what some people might say if they're being very strict and legalistic about the tithe versus an offering versus your income versus any sort of like time that you might give or other resources. And I would say that I'm more aligned with you on, look, not everyone has money to give in terms of a tithe. Some people have talents that they choose to give in time that they choose to give and resources that they currently have. Pj: Right, right, right, right. Randy: Some people have a gift that they just can't help but make money. Everything they do turns to gold and they have plenty of money to give. I would never tell that person who just has extra wealth and resources that, you can't just give time. You also got to give your money. And I wouldn't tell the person who doesn't have the money, hey, you can't just, wait, did I say that backwards? Yeah, I wouldn't tell the wealthy person, you can't just give money. You also got to give time. And I wouldn't tell someone who doesn't have the extra resources, you can't just give time. You got to give money. would say, look, for each one of you, whether you are super wealthy or whether you are barely making ends meet, I would say that do what you want to do out of that cheerful heart that 2 Corinthians talks about. Now with that being said, I will also mention that in 1 Corinthians chapter 9, 13 and 14, it says those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. So I do believe that it is important that we as Christians, you know, support Pj: Absolutely, absolutely. Randy: our local church and that we support our pastors that we, know, whose church we attend because it says right there that they should essentially ⁓ receive their, you know, wages from the preaching of the gospel. However, you know, just to kind of like, you know, take another look at that, Paul himself said ⁓ in ⁓ second Thessalonians that when he was with the Thessalonians that they worked. And they weren't, didn't want to be a burden on anybody. So they actually worked and had jobs. ⁓ I think at some point it says Paul was a tent maker or something like that. So like, even though Paul is telling like the Corinthians, like, yeah, you guys should give in support of your pastors and your elders and you know, the, leaders in your congregation. But at the same time, the example that he was setting was, Hey, I don't want to be a burden. I want to preach the gospel everywhere I go. And if you have something to give me great, but if not, then I'm gonna do it anyway and I'm just gonna work. Pj: Yep. Yeah, I'm not gonna. not give the message because I can't support myself. I'll support myself and still give the message. And that's a pretty powerful message, realistically, because I unfortunately, you know, and this is not to get way too far ahead of ourselves. you know, ⁓ you and I were having some conversations earlier about how ⁓ grossly misused tithing can be towards these pastors, mega pastors who are just, you know, basically Randy: Right, right. Pj: doing it for their own glorification, know what mean? For their own fleshly desires, for sure. Randy: Yeah, and that's a good point to bring up because I do believe that, so I do believe in, you know, what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from that work, because it is work. It's not easy. ⁓ Being a pastor of a church is not easy. If it was, maybe you or me would be pastors, but we're not because it's not an easy job and it's not everyone's call to it. So first and foremost, respect and love to all the pastors out there who might be listening. This is not us being critical of any teaching. This is just us explaining ⁓ the way we interpret the scriptures. So that's first and foremost that yes, they should receive their salary from that work because it is work. ⁓ Pj: Absolutely. Randy: But yeah, at the same time, there should be some sort of system of accountability in place to make sure that the funds that are received are being used wisely and for the purposes that are outlined in the scriptures. Because like you just mentioned, ⁓ you know, we know that there's a lot of abuse that goes on and misuse of funds. And honestly, I think for a lot of nonbelievers who maybe like are flirting with Jesus and maybe exploring the church. That's one of their biggest concerns is like, you know, they just want my money and you know, these pastors, they see these, these, these televengeant list ⁓ on TV and things like that. And they just have this perception right or wrong that all they are, are about is money. Pj: Or on the flip side, you get a lot of false teaching because they're like, man, all I got to get up here and do is read out this Bible and interpret it however I want to. And I could, you know, make all this money because people there, there are a lot of people who want something to believe it. Right. And I would venture to say that if there was a cap put on like an annual salary that you could max out for, for a pastor. And once that cap was met, Randy: Right, right. Pj: you had to distribute the funds out into the community. You had to, you know, feed the homeless or, you know, pay, you know, single parent's friend or something like that. I guarantee you there would be a lot of pastors, not all of course, but a lot of pastors that would stop pushing Thailand so much. You know what I mean? If it, if it stopped being directly beneficial to them and they say, okay, listen, you know what, what's the average salary of anybody else who does a job of a man? you know, in this, in this age class or whatever, let's just say it's $70,000 a year. And that might be high. I don't know. But just to say if a pastor could not make more than $70,000 a year and anything above that they had to, you know, actively get rid of, then I think it would change a lot, man. Because the thing about it is, is Paul wasn't saying, Hey, look, I should be paid so that I can live above everybody else. He's like, no, if I got to, I'll go, I'll go take a job on, you know, Monday through through Saturday. Randy: Right, right. Pj: to be able to preach on Sunday just so I can do it, so I can feed myself to get to that sermon. Randy: Well, what right and I think, know, you know, we'll let the listeners, you know, fact check us on this and in the comments, but I'm pretty sure Paul also talks about elsewhere where where he does talk about, if you do want to send me anything, is this is for your like, you know, sowing into the kingdom essentially so that you could bless other people, you know, more than just saying, hey, you know, you need to bless me. I need to get paid for preaching the gospel. I got I, you know, I tend to Pj: All right. Randy: can't remember the passages, but I tend to think that there was some, portion of the New Testament where he's saying something to that effect, like, Hey, you guys can give and it's going to be, you know, used for the kingdom. Pj: Well, absolutely. at that time, mean, Paul had a lot of mouths around him that he was also trying to help feed. You know what mean? So. Randy: Right, right. One thing I do want to say about pastors, I don't know, I'm in this mode today where I'm giving shout outs to pastors that are doing good things. And, you know, I've been blessed to know a lot of pastors throughout my life. But, you know, going all the way back to, you know, Pastor Dave Smith and Family Worship Center, one thing that I always remember, you know, there are certain things that I've heard, you know, that guy preached that always stuck with me, you know, 20 plus years later. Pj: ⁓ yeah. Randy: And one of the things I heard him say was, and I don't remember what the context was, ⁓ but I heard him say that essentially his salary that he received as the pastor of that church, they looked at the average income in Pueblo, Colorado. What is the average? Which for those of you who might be listening, Pueblo, Colorado is a very poor blue collar town with a lot of poverty. And pastor Dave has one of the biggest congregations, if not the biggest congregation in that town. And to take the average salary and say that's going to be my salary, I thought just showed a lot of like humility and I thought was a great like model for to follow and I don't know how many I don't know how common that is. But my guess is it's probably not that common. Pj: And for context, mean, this was 20 something years ago whenever even the wages weren't even as high as they necessarily are today. Right. So, yeah, I mean, Pastor Davis, yeah, he's, you know. Randy: Right, right. Pj: The hard thing for me, even though I was around Pastor Dave a lot and I grew up listening to him and always loved him and respected him, I still do think he's a great, great pastor. But even though I wasn't necessarily listening like I should have been back then, you know, he he kind of set the standard for me as what I was looking for. And that was that was a little bit tricky because I'm like, you know. Just because they're not Pastor Dave doesn't mean that they might not be the next spiritual leader. You know what mean? That I'll sit on their soul. Randy: Yeah, I would say though, you know, and I'm right there with you. I mean, the standard was set so high, ⁓ you know, it's been tough for, you know, any other church that I've been to to live up to that standard. ⁓ But I think, you know, that's something for pastors to consider. You know, I don't know what the average salary is for a pastor. guess that's something we can look up. ⁓ But I'm going to guess that, you know, that's probably not a common tactic that a lot of pastors or church leaders are taking. ⁓ If I had to guess, I would say that it's probably higher than the average. I think maybe they might look more at the size of their organization. If a company had X amount of people, how much would the CEO make versus the average salary of a town? I think that's probably more in line with what a lot of churches would think. How else could we have these mega pastors with tens of thousands of people who are earning millions of dollars a year unless they're having that sort of mentality? Pj: Right, Yeah, it's crazy, man. It's really crazy. ⁓ you yeah. I mean, you know, ⁓ what? Oddly you're little foreshadowing, but, ⁓ you know, I was looking up some some of the best. Well known pastors, I guess, in the US ⁓ and one of my current favorite pastors, which would be Philip Anthony Mitchell. ⁓ He wasn't even on the list as far as like, you know, and I'm sure I guess it only showed like 30 people. ⁓ And, you know, I was kind of kind of happy about that. Now, another pastor that I really like and I follow Mark Driscoll, he was he was on there. ⁓ But I mean, you know, as as I feel like he he deserves to an extent, of course, you know, not to I mean, you know, he does preach the word. I mean, and I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with ⁓ Randy: Yeah. Pj: you know, people, people experiencing an abundance of blessings for, being out there, you know, doing, doing the Lord's work. It's just one of those, those things, man. ⁓ you know, it's Randy: Yeah. Well, so I just, so I just did a little research here and it looks like the average salary in the U S for a pastor is 55 to 60 K a year, which in 2026 is, is nothing essentially. ⁓ you know, I, it's going to sound like I'm bragging when I say this, but you know, last year I paid almost that much in taxes. So it's, it's a lot of money. I'm not a lot of money is what I'm saying. Pj: Right. Randy: But I think pastors, you know, have other sources of income too, for some of them like Pastor Mark that you're mentioning. He's an author too, right? So and does he also have like a show, radio show, podcast? So he's probably got other sources of income outside of just his church, his actual salary as a pastor, right? Pj: podcast and conferences. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and, and right. And I think a hundred percent that that is in my opinion, that's a difference, right? It's like, listen, I, it's like, you know what? I'll preach the word of God for free. Right. But if I'm talented in this other avenue and I I'm able to capitalize on this, Hey, you know, the, God, God blessed us with, you know, with a sound mind and, and, you know, ambition and all these things. So, Hey, go out there and get it. Nothing wrong with living in abundance. Randy: Right? Right. Pj: You know what mean? What I'm saying is not using the word of God as a platform to ⁓ or not not, you know, that being your your soul reason for saying, you know what, I'm going to pick up this Bible and preach God's word, you know, to become. Randy: Right or for trying to guilt trip people into this Old Testament legalistic, you know mindset, which honestly, I'll be honest with you. I think that ⁓ for most of the preachers who are out there preaching this Malachi 3 10 test the Lord by giving and see if he don't bless you. I mean, it's either I don't want to sound judgmental, but I think Pj: Right. Randy: you know, for a lot of them, it's either because they are trying to build up their kingdom, either a bigger church building or a more lavish church building or their own personal salary. It's not necessarily for building up the kingdom because when I think about building up the I'm thinking like, how much are you given to like missionaries, people who are out there in the field, whether in our country or other countries, yeah, doing the work. How much are we supporting the widow and the orphan and giving to charities? Pj: 100%. doing the work. Randy: and know, helping people who like, you know, can't have, you know, provide the basic things in life for themselves or maybe just the basics, but not much beyond that. Like how much of what we're giving is going to that versus to this internal, you know, kingdom, you know, that we're trying to build. ⁓ and, and, know, and, and I'm sure there's some out there who are, you know, trying to preach Malachi three 10 because they want to do kingdom work. But I feel like a lot of the times the people that I hear preaching that it's, it's, It's not necessarily for the right purposes. Pj: Right. You know what? That actually makes me think about it now that we're talking on it a little bit more. And I guess it's had time to kind of sink in and resonate with me a little bit more. We talked, I think it was last week about Christian content and we brought up the book of Eli. So be on the lookout for that. Yeah, the movie, the Book of Eli, would end at Washington. So be on the lookout for that, I guess. Anyways, but the. Randy: Yeah, the movie, the book of Eli. Pj: the antagonist in that he reminds me of somebody that would preach Malachi, right? Because the thing about it is this, God don't need nothing from us. God's not waiting for me to give him 10 % or 100 % of my check. He don't need nothing from me, right? So who serves to benefit from preaching that and me giving 10 % and testing God and saying, hey man, pastor, I gave him my 10%, but. Randy: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Pj: I'm not seeing these blessings and he's like, you're not given enough who's benefiting. You know what I mean? Because he, he, he, all he does is stand to make more money off of my guilty conscience and my obedience and my will to, want to do the right thing. And if it doesn't work out like that, he's like, maybe, maybe you haven't pleased the Lord. And I mean, so he just gets to play this middleman money collector. You know what mean? Randy: Right, right. Mm. Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, great movie. And if you didn't see the episode we did on Christian media, make sure you guys go back and check that one out. Pj: We haven't dropped it yet. That's why they haven't seen it. Randy: But by the time they hear this one, that one will be out. Pj: ⁓ yeah. That, that checks out. Yeah. Go back and watch it. But yeah, but yeah, you know, my bad, but no, but it really, you know, I think that that's a hundred percent it's re that's a perfect example of reasons why that guy wanted the Bible because he's like using the word of God, I can make people do these things and then sit back and say, Hey, look, if you're not getting the result, that's that's between you and God. Meanwhile, just sitting back and soaking up all these benefits. Randy: Hahaha Right, right. He wanted to use it for manipulation and unfortunately there are a lot of people who still, you who right now are using it for manipulation and have throughout history from the various different cults and false religions ⁓ that have been based on, you know, twisting the scriptures and manipulating people, you know, with combinations of the old and new covenant or adding things to the Bible that were Pj: 100%. Yep. Yep. Randy: even in the Bible to begin with, whole new books and chapters. Like there's been a lot of manipulation of the scriptures. Pj: All right. That just made me think exactly of Matthew 23 23, where Jesus is basically tearing the Pharisees themselves like y'all y'all are hypocrites. You know what mean? You are trying to use this for for y'all benefit. You know what mean? So. Randy: ⁓ go ahead. Right, right. Right. So let's read that. Do you have that in front of you? What does Matthew 23 say? Pj: Matthew 23 23 says, woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites, you give a 10th of your spices, mint, dill and cumin, but you have neglected the more important matters of law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. So yeah. Randy: Yeah, so in other words, don't pick and choose what you're going to enforce and what you yourself are going to try to live up to. And I think we've touched on this a little bit in one of our previous conversations where we said that there are certain sins that people get really hung up on and they'll say you're going to hell if you do X, but then other sins that go totally ignored. Like how often do you hear a pastor get up in front of a church in America and preach on gluttony? Pj: Right. Right, never, 100%. Randy: Not very often, but that's the sin. mean, you know, he sees a bunch of people who look fat like me and he's like, ⁓ I'm not going to touch that one. But let me, let me preach about these other things that no one could actually see outwardly. Right. Let's, let's, let's focus in. And I think that's Jesus's point. And he's saying like, Hey, you're focusing on one thing and not the other, but it's the same God who wrote all these commandments, the same God you're offending. If you break one of them. Pj: Yep. And I think one that's even more grossly overlooked than that. it's probably just as not if just as more if just as common, if not more is what I'm trying to say is gossip, man, gossiping, gossiping is thrown in there like as one of like the, the biggest things to not do. Right. And, and, and look, you know, I I'll be honest with you at one point in time in my mind, I was like, Randy: Yeah. Right. Right, right. Pj: man, I'm not gossiping, right? I'm just telling the truth from my side. And that's wrong. That's wrong. That's still gossiping. You know what mean? And every that goes on a lot, man, a lot more. And I think that it's it's so so many seeds of discourse and causes so much division. And again, it goes unchecked. Why? Because it's not like one of those buzz things like, ⁓ no, let's stick to drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, you know, whatever. Randy: Right, right, right. It does. Pj: everybody can sit and I think it's like one of those things it's like those you know thou shalt not commit murder I haven't murdered nobody I should be good well thou shalt not lie either I don't lie you just lied you know what I mean but it's like okay well everybody lies so we'll just we'll just even that one out on the board but if you kill somebody you're bad like nope sin sin wages death you know so Randy: Right? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. So, so back to the tithe, let me ask you this. I know that neither one of us is in the 1 % as the 1 % is often used to talk about the super elite and super wealthy, but are you in the 5 %? Are you in the 5 %? So 5 % roughly of church, church goers consistently give the full 10%. Is that something that you're comfortable stating whether you are or not? Pj: I mean, I like I said, I was for a little while. You know what I mean? ⁓ Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: But then that didn't last very long. And I guess, you know, I guess just to add context, I think that ⁓ and I don't have the verse in front of me, but my 10 % would have been like that. The poor woman who put like 20 bucks into the pot and it was her last 20 bucks. And the other guy put in like a hundred and was like, I gave more. And Jesus was like, surely I'd tell you that woman gave more because she gave everything she had. And you gave out of abundance a little bit out of your abundance kind of thing. Randy: Well, he was talking percentage wise, right? He was talking percentage. She gave a much higher percent because she gave everything. Pj: No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. But basically she, he was saying she's willing to give it all and you're just willing and she has little, you know mean? And so I guess in the context, my, 10 % would be closer to that end of the spectrum. But, but I, and to be honest with you, according to the way I stated that I see it, ⁓ I believe my wife and I would, would Randy: Right. Pj: have been consistently given more than the 10 % you know and more ways more ways in one. Randy: Okay. Well, then you were in the 5 % then the way that you define the tithe and it sounds like you got some, uh, your own math going on, going on there while you divide it. I'm going to say, look, I'm going to say, I really don't know, but I'm going to say, I don't think so. And the reason why I would say, I don't know is cause to me it is a grace issue, a new covenant issue. It's not something that I've ever really cared to try to adhere to because I'm not under the law. I'm under grace. Pj: You Randy: and I've always given out of my heart. And sometimes that giving out of my heart has been to my church and to my pastor, which I've always tried consistently to do. Sometimes it's been to other Christian ministries that have fed me and I think are doing good work out there. Sometimes it does show up in love offering. Sometimes it shows up to a homeless person, you know, on the side of the street that I give to, which I would not say I do all the time, but I do as I feel led to do. And so I would say that, you know, I don't know, but I don't think so. I would say that Pj: Right. Amen. Randy: I don't know because I just have never sat down to take an account of it because I just don't feel like it's that important for me to take an account. I feel like it's more important for me to do it out of love and out of a giving heart when I feel led. And now is that a cop out? Is that me saying that like, you know, I've done enough? No, I think that, you know, as I grow and as I mature in my walk, I think as all of us as Christians grow and mature in our walk, it's something that we should challenge ourselves with. I think it's something for us to evaluate and to think about because, you know, if we look at how we're spending our money, and as I mentioned earlier, I do think that part of the reason why we're told to tithe is to learn money management and to be better stewards of our resources. And if we do have that mindset and we are evaluating ourselves and our spending habits, I think it's a fair conversation for us to have in terms of, you know, are we spending too much on something that's maybe entertainment or maybe something that would be considered wasteful when we could be giving more to, you know, kingdom work, if you will, more towards the widow and the orphan and to the charities and to the different, you know, things that are going on around us. Right. Like I would hate to be in a position where I felt like God was really calling me to give, you know, to a certain you know, ⁓ organization or a certain cause and not be able to do it because I just blew my money on X, right? A new car that I didn't need or, you know, an extravagant vacation or whatever, right? Whatever, whatever the thing is. So I do think it's something that we should all continue to evaluate. And as we mature and as we grow in our faith, ⁓ you know, I think that that's something that we should consider. But yeah, I would say for me, I don't think I'm in that 5%. Matter of fact, I could pretty much say that I know I'm not, even though I don't keep an account. But I do believe that I am still walking in the spirit of that 2 Corinthians 9, which is, you know, don't do it out of reluctance or compulsion. Do it cheerfully. Pj: Right. hundred percent, man. Yeah. And, ⁓ you know, I think it might also be, ⁓ to the purpose of, of kind of, you know, keeping like, like checking in, right. So, you know, I, what comes to mind is, is the rich man who, you know, told Jesus like, Hey, I've, you know, I've kept all the commandments and Jesus is like, all right, we'll go give away all your money. He's like, I'm not going to do that. I mean, so I think it's just, it's just kind of keeping us mindful to not prioritize money. You know, obviously the Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. And so I think it's just in line with that, man. and, and, know, I, I mean, I would say, like I said, I would say, so just, you know, not, I guess, not necessarily that, that I keep account either, but I do, you know, to be honest with you, I, because it's my wife on the side of like, you know, being very active with children's ministry and cleaning and stuff like that. I just got to the point where I told her like, Hey, and I, to be honest with you, I never kept track. was like, you know, as far as actual finances, putting in the thing for, for whatever, you know, to sew into the church. whatever you feel, you know what mean? In accordance to everything else that you feel like you're doing, put whatever you feel. So, you know, so that's kind of how we, we, we, guess, gauge that. And, and my thing was, you know, as far as I feel like any giving that I do is from, I, I tried, I specifically because like I've mentioned before, money used to be such a big problem for me. You know, I, I, always had it in my mind that however much money I made was my worth and my value. And that's how I gauged my success. And I spent the vast majority of my life with that mentality thinking, you know what, I'm going to hustle and I'm going to grind and I'm going to be somebody and I'm going to show everybody, you know, blah, blah. And so now I, you know, I feel completely the opposite. feel like anything that I have. Randy: Right. Pj: is not my money. It's a blessing from God. He has provided and he, you know, and so I feel like, like you said, I feel like all I'm doing is stewarding what God has given me. So. Randy: Right. Right. And I'll just say too that I think that, you know, pretty much all of us feel similar to how you felt at some point in our lives, especially men, right? Because, you know, money, that is one of the, you know, items on the world's scoreboard is, you know, how much money do you have? How much money do you earn? I think that's definitely one of those items on the world's scoreboard. And so it's something that's kind of, you know, it's hard to Pj: 100%. Randy: you know, totally like remove from your mind, right? Because obviously we want to provide the best life that we can for our children and for our families. And it takes money to do that. Right. And most of us don't want to lower our standard of living. We want to increase our standard of living, right? Whether or not you are, you know, consumed by money or you have made money, you know, your number one focus in life, you know, it's kind of hard to just live in society. and not have it impact you. Whether you are a covetous person who loves to watch MTV Cribs, I don't know, is that still on? Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous, geez, that's even older. Or whatever it is, I don't know what the modern version of, you you scroll on TikTok and see these people driving super cars, I don't know. Regardless, you know, it's hard to not be impacted at all. Even if you're not totally into that kind of stuff, you're gonna, you know. Pj: ⁓ thanks. Yeah. Randy: you're going to feel it, right? When you're at your job and there's an opportunity for a promotion, you want to do better. You want to make more money if you can, right? If you find out that someone else is getting paid, it's kind of like human nature that you want to get paid more if someone else is getting paid more. It's like all these little things, right? So, and I think again, for like us as men, it's even more, you know, um, a driving force for us because yeah, I mean, for men, a lot of how we typically get our worth. is through the work that we do and the money we earn and the resources that we can provide for our family. Now we know that that's not where we truly get our worth because where we really get our worth is from being children of God, right? And we have intrinsic value, but it's hard to always have that in the forefront ⁓ of our minds when we also live in a physical world where Pj: Over. Randy: you know, we have needs and we do have to do things to provide. So not making excuses, but just saying that, you know, that's a struggle that, you know, I'm sure, you know, a lot of people out there can relate to. Pj: And see that. That's where, you know, I, I do enjoy it. And I mean, I do check in with my wife and I'm like, Hey, did you make sure that, that we, we tied this week just to, you know, for me, I, I intentionally tried to, you know, kind of make sure that I don't fall back into that old way. ⁓ you know, that where, where money becomes too much of, of, motivation or, or, or focal point, you know I mean? And, and, it's been awesome. And honestly, I thought it was going to be way harder. Um, you know, uh, but the, Lord, the Lord dealt with me, you know, pretty swiftly with that. And, and man, you know, it, it really, it felt like giving up that, just that, that idea of like, man, I, I got to grind. got to, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like I always got to be at 110%. And if, if, if I, if I'm less than that, then this whole thing falls apart, like being able to give that to God and saying, look, God, you know what? At the end of the day, I don't care if I got a hundred million dollars or if I'm broke. Like I'm a child of the most high God and you thought I was important enough to die for me. So like just keeping that perspective and you know, there's times like, mean, I don't want to give away too many specifics because I'm trying to keep my blessing blessing in heaven. but but but man, like ⁓ there was a certain point in time in my life where I was ⁓ doing something extra to make some extra money. Randy: Hahaha Pj: And I didn't think that it was going to be a whole lot, but I was going to give it a shot, you know, and and in the very beginning of the process, I felt like God put it on my heart and was like, you know, whatever you get from this, sow it into the church like you need to help other people. And I was like, OK, well, I'm like, you know, not expecting it to be much. And it ended up being a pretty substantial amount. Not I'm not talking about like Randy: Mm. Pj: thousands of dollars, but it would no no it would you know, right and and you know, it gets up to this point and I'm looking at it like You know, could really use there's things that I could do with this money, you know, but but but look the Lord put it on my heart to To give it and and you know, that was one of those times where I was like, nope. Nope not falling back into this You know, hey look, you know, I'm glad I feel like he put it on my heart for a reason and Randy: not life changing money, it wasn't, it wasn't nothing to sneeze at. Yeah. Pj: And I didn't need to know, nobody needs to know it was me. I put it where it needed to go. And I just was like, Lord have your way. And I do believe that he multiplied that and blessed people. that's how I think about it anyways. And I'm glad that that was the outcome instead of me using it even for whatever I needed because ⁓ either way I believe the Lord ended up providing, which he always does. Randy: Well, that's a great story, man. You mind if we do a quick segment for our sponsor, Everyday Lean? Pj: No, go ahead. Randy: So I just want to just reiterate to everybody out there that the Bible makes it pretty clear in Deuteronomy that if you don't give 10 % you are going to hell. So I just want to make sure everybody understands that 10 % is the standard and if you don't give 10 % you are not going to make it to heaven. Pj: But there's good news. We do not live in that old covenant anymore. There's a new one and that new covenant Randy: Man, you're ruining my clickbait, okay? I needed a clickbait clip for our ⁓ sponsors out there. You're totally ruining it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. All right, everybody knows we're kidding. Any final thoughts on tithing that you would wrap this up with? Pj: So, yeah. Man, just to reiterate, I don't think that there's ⁓ a better way to give than with a cheerful heart. I don't think there's a better way to do anything than to do it out of love, a place of love, you know what mean? So, yeah. Randy: Yeah. Right. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would just say that my final thoughts are, you know, as we mentioned, know, 2 Corinthians 9, 7, we should give out of our heart, not with reluctance, not under compulsion, not out of any sense of duty or, you know, trying to keep a commandment or fulfill the law. We should give cheerfully. And I would just go a step further and to say that, look, it's between you and the Lord. and your walk with the Lord, not between you and your pastor or you and any congregation or denomination. If you feel that you should give 10 % and that's what the Lord's telling you to do, whether it's before taxes, after taxes, whether that 10 % is made up of offerings or just your time or whatever it is, that's between you and the Lord. If you feel like 5 % is good or 1 % is good, Pj: Amen. Yeah. Randy: That's between you and the Lord. That's not for me to judge. That's not for PJ to judge. That's not for your pastor or anyone else to judge. That's between you and the Lord. And just pray about it and consider it and think about how you do spend your time and your money. And if there are things that you feel like God is leading you to, you know, ⁓ maybe, you know, change and trade off certain things that you do to do other things or certain things you spend your money on to be able to give more. then that's between you and the Lord. Just as PJ said, if God speaks to you and says, for this portion of your life, for this time, I want you to give this increase to this cause, then you should probably follow your heart there and do it cheerfully and not be held to any legalistic standard or feel judged or condemned because God doesn't judge you. God doesn't condemn you. God has given his life for you. Yeah, 100%. Pj: Amen. or bullied into it. Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't be bullied into it, man. That was, that was really well said, man. I mean, I was going to come back and, touch on some of them same points, but I mean, that's, that's, that's exactly, that's perfectly said. And I mean, you know, that's, that's all, you know, can be backed up biblically. So, you know what I mean? If, if you're hearing it another way, then, then I would, I would jump in that, that Bible. Randy: Right, right. And please do jump in the Bible, leave your comments, tell us your thoughts. If you disagree with us, know that at some point we will be reading your comments and giving you our feedback on it. We want to, you know, start a conversation here. So ⁓ feel free to leave your comments, even if you just totally disagree with us and you're like, Nope, I believe it's got to be like this. That's okay. That's what we want to do. We want to have these conversations. Pj: Absolutely. Randy: Alright brother, what do think? Pj: think that I'll wrap it up for today. What about you? Randy: All right, well, I think that does it for this episode of Walk Talk. Thank you all so much for listening. If you haven't already, please follow the show. And before you go, leave your thoughts in the comments below. God bless. Pj: God bless.