Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / The Truth About Lying to Your Doctor

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The Truth About Lying to Your Doctor · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
AI is about to replace your doctor, and that might be the
0:03
best thing that ever happens to your health.
0:05
Right now your body is being tracked by 5 apps, 3 wearables,
0:08
2 doctors, and none of them talk to each other.
0:11
It's chaos. So what happens when AI actually
0:13
sees everything? Your sleep, Your workouts, your
0:16
blood work, Your bad decisions on a Friday night?
0:18
The fun ones. Suddenly it's not guessing, it's
0:21
pattern recognition for your life.
0:23
So you wake up feeling off instead of Googling.
0:26
Do I have brain cancer? AI says no.
0:28
You slept 4 hours, drank 6 drinks and skipped hydration.
0:31
Fix that first. That's just the truth.
0:33
And it's different because you lie to your doctor.
0:35
Everybody does. But you don't lie to something
0:38
that already has the data and doesn't judge you.
0:41
So now you've got a system that knows you better than your
0:43
physician and it isn't judging you for it.
0:45
That's a power. It's kind of terrifying, but
0:48
it's inevitable. So here's the real question.
0:50
If your life could be optimized by a system that sees every
0:53
thing, would you trust it more than you trust yourself?
0:56
Welcome to AI for founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
0:59
Today we're diving into how founders can build products that
1:01
turn messy human data into clear decisions and why the future
1:05
belongs to those who unify, not just analyze.
1:08
This is for builders who see opportunities where others see
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It's the newsletter your future self wishes you already read.
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And if this it made you think, laugh or slightly panic, drop a
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review and let me know what hit. This episode features Steven,
1:30
the founder of Sava dot AI, building a unified health
1:33
intelligence layer powered by multiple AI models.
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And real quick, if you want to be the founder that everyone is
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2:00
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining
2:02
me. Thanks for having me, Ryan.
2:04
Absolute pleasure. You know, we spoke maybe a week
2:07
or two ago and I was like, you got to come on the podcast
2:09
because I've been waiting for this product for so long.
2:12
There's so many banana peels in this.
2:14
So let's just dive right in. Give us an overview of your app,
2:18
which was just approved by the iOS store Sava.
2:23
Thank you. Yes, I mean, Sava is a place, a
2:28
unified area where you could put all your wearables, information
2:31
and data from your whoop, your Garmin, your Peloton, your, your
2:36
Strava, right? And combine it with your medical
2:41
records and your medications and your labs and, and it's a place
2:45
for people to make informed decisions on their health to get
2:49
and, you know, have AI analyze it and also ask questions and
2:53
get and get answers that are actually rooted in your actual
2:55
healthcare data. Yeah.
2:58
It's amazing and you know, there's so many innovations that
3:00
are coming as far as like healthcare goes for pathology.
3:04
If you're sick, you definitely want you have an urgency, but
3:06
there's a lot of people maybe like me that are more, you know,
3:09
we're not sick. It's like I am into human
3:12
optimization. I'm into like getting the best
3:15
out of my meat suit that I possibly can before the water
3:19
completely runs down the drain. So as such, I end up having all
3:23
these different disparate apps, you know, like for me, I like
3:26
Cal AI or MyFitnessPal before that, or Strava, like you were
3:31
saying, like I'm measuring things all over the place, but I
3:34
want a centralized place that can like show me like, hey,
3:37
here's how you could supplement with these these foods, maybe
3:41
these supplements. And that really is kind of, I
3:44
think the promise of what Saba is.
3:46
So I'm super excited about it and really happy that you
3:50
decided to do this. So let's kind of, you know, 1
3:53
differentiation too is you're using different models.
3:56
So basically saying that like maybe Claude could tell me
3:59
something different than Grok, then Gemini could analyze better
4:03
different than GPT. Talk a little bit about the
4:06
differentiation between models that are actually analyzing the
4:09
data. These AI models change it seems
4:12
like every couple weeks, right? Kimi 2.5 just came out from moon
4:17
shot, which is so much different than Kimi 2 point O and chat
4:21
ChatGPT 5.4 versus 5.3 right? And so we, we give users the
4:28
optionality without being married to 1.
4:32
And so, you know, plug in a question, when's, what's my,
4:36
when's my medication refill due or what was my last blood test
4:39
and what were the results and see what Grok has to say.
4:42
And then 2 seconds later switch it on to Gemini.
4:45
And then what does Med Gemma have to say?
4:47
And then Llama and then Falcon and then Mistral.
4:51
And so give people the 2nd 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th opinions of their
4:54
healthcare, almost like a round table, right.
4:57
You, you leave the doctor's office and I don't know what
5:00
that guy was saying. I don't trust that dude.
5:02
You go on to, you know, I want a second opinion.
5:04
It's, it's, it's one of the, one of the, the most common things
5:07
we say about our healthcare. So giving people that
5:10
optionality inside the app. And what's really cool about it
5:13
actually is, you know, it's like 30 bucks a month to have the pro
5:18
plan for some of these AIS. And for us for $10 a year, we
5:24
give you all of them and we're able to do and to use Anthropic
5:29
and then GPT and then Gemini and then Grok.
5:33
And we do so because we don't, we don't give you unlimited
5:37
answers, right? You can have, I think with Grok
5:40
for $10 a year, it's something like 12,000 questions and
5:43
answers. And so it's, well, it's not
5:45
unlimited. It's still ample.
5:47
Who's really going to ask more than 12,000 questions in a year?
5:50
And even if you do, you know, just re up the 10 bucks.
5:53
And so letting people choose between these AIS as well as to
5:59
do so in a, in a way that you're not breaking the bank either.
6:03
Yeah, well, and it's interesting now too, because, you know,
6:07
maybe since October, November, I've noticed certain, you know,
6:12
LLMS are definitely smarter. And it's, it's hard.
6:15
They everybody's publishing their new benchmarks about we
6:18
can do this, we can do that. But ultimately it's just like a
6:20
feeling as you're engaging with it.
6:22
You're like, oh, like this one is is really appealing to me
6:25
right now. So I'll kind of move over there
6:27
and then kind of go back and forth.
6:30
So it could be. And I think they also have
6:32
varying degrees of personality. You know, in a year, all the
6:36
stuff will probably be common sense, but now we're still kind
6:39
of seeing how it's emerging and like where do you know, all the
6:42
foundation foundational models will kind of like create an
6:46
arena where they're most successful.
6:48
So I think that's a really cool feature, you know, plus, because
6:52
if we're talking about like, you know, therapeutics for the well,
6:56
there's so many options now and so many more coming on the on
7:00
the table, whether you're talking about hormone
7:02
replacement therapies, you're talking about GLP ones, you're
7:05
talking about all these peptides that are available.
7:07
There's like the recreational Ivs you can get for different
7:11
things that so, you know, kind of coming up like not really
7:14
integrated into the healthcare system more into kind of
7:17
holistic health where, you know, I like massages and acupuncture
7:21
and chiropractic for a while. And different things like that
7:25
where you can start to get different perspectives from the
7:28
LLMS. And you also have a centralized place where maybe it
7:31
starts to make recommendations. Because I think that's the other
7:34
thing that I'm really enjoying about the, the predictive nature
7:37
of AI right now is it's going to kind of expose your, your blind
7:41
spots. So you might not know about this
7:43
peptide available to you. You might not know that like,
7:46
oh, if your, you know, liver markers are here, maybe you can
7:49
supplement with this kind of food.
7:51
Basically, what LLM is going to recommend keeping me in the
7:55
game, you know, exercising hard, but also drinking hard for as
7:59
long as I possibly can, you know?
8:02
So I, I do know, I get that. I mean, that's certainly where
8:05
it's going. I mean, it's an amazing space to
8:07
be in because it's early days, right?
8:10
And from a holistic perspective, right?
8:13
Just to have access to be able to make decisions without going
8:17
to the doctor's office and to sit there and educate yourself
8:21
on the couch instead of somebody telling you about all this
8:25
stuff, right? I think it's, it's, it's so
8:27
cool. And whether all that data is in
8:29
an electronic health record or not, right to be, we allow
8:32
people to upload that data directly into the phone, right?
8:35
Take a picture of, of what you're dealing with TRT and, and
8:39
put that in there. Then now it's all it's keeping
8:41
it in there. It's kind of a longitudinal or
8:44
universal health record in terms of it doesn't just need to be
8:46
coming out of Epic to be coming out of, you know, your concierge
8:50
medicine clinic or, or an urgent care facility or just, you know,
8:54
Quest or, you know, LabCorp, some something like that.
8:58
So it's the whole idea behind what we're trying to do over
9:00
here. Yeah, and therapies are
9:02
anecdotal too, you know, so like if you, you have an infection,
9:05
they're like, no, you need to take these 3 pills three times a
9:08
day for seven days. Like do that and take all of it.
9:12
You're like OK, done and done. But you know, if you're taking a
9:14
GL P1 or you're taking peptides, it's more like, well, how do you
9:18
feel? You know, and you're like, well,
9:20
day three, I kind of felt like ass and then I felt better.
9:23
And so you maybe you want to modulate the dosage back and you
9:26
need a place to kind of like keep all this information, you
9:29
know, and with an, with an agent, obviously you can just
9:32
talk to it. You know, the one thing that we
9:34
touched on too, and I was kind of joking about about drinking
9:37
hard, but not really, because if you go to the doctor and they're
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like, do you have more than four alcoholic drinks a week?
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You're like, yeah, they're like, dude, you lush.
9:46
I'm like 4. I mean, you know, I got a glass
9:50
of wine with dinner, maybe a whiskey at at watching the game.
9:53
What are we talking about here? So it doesn't really incentivize
9:57
you to be honest with your doctor because, yeah, totally.
10:00
You have to lie to your doctor, you know.
10:03
So with AAI, it kind of gives you an opportunity and we can
10:06
talk about privacy in a second because this kind of dovetails
10:09
into it. But with AI, you're like, all
10:10
right, man, here's the real truth, man.
10:12
I had, I had 7 vodka sodas last night, you know, and I, I ate a
10:19
gigantic pizza all by myself. You know, what's a hangover
10:23
recipe? I got some tomato juice and some
10:26
pickle juice. What should I you know, the the
10:28
options for that kind of honesty seem to be like the beneficial
10:33
for like the patient. The great point, yeah, I mean,
10:36
people are, people are so, you know, weird, for lack of a
10:39
better term, with their, with their health data.
10:41
And I mean, there's all sorts of stuff you don't want to share
10:44
with your physician for, for various reasons.
10:46
Like I live in a really, really small town here.
10:48
I see my physician at Whole Foods on the daily, right.
10:51
You can't, you can't be just giving her everything that's
10:54
going on in my life. You start feeling weird about
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it. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a
10:58
trust factor, you know, I think. And I have a crazy story.
11:01
I mean, I have a buddy of mine who will remain nameless.
11:06
He had his prostate removed. He got, he got, you know,
11:09
prostate cancer a couple months ago, had it removed and his
11:13
wife, his family, his parents, everyone thinks he had a hernia
11:17
treated. He didn't even right.
11:19
People are. I mean, he just doesn't, he
11:22
doesn't want the, he just doesn't want the, the, you know,
11:25
the feeling of, oh, the for me, I had my prostate removed.
11:27
He's or for whatever reason, he's just keeping it away and
11:30
keeping it, you know, part of he wants it in.
11:33
And I think I'm the only guy I know because we know each other
11:35
since kindergarten. Yeah.
11:37
So people are people are strange with their health data.
11:39
They're they're protective of this stuff.
11:41
And so I think this, this trend with using AI to, to get answers
11:46
is just so cool for for various reasons, especially that that
11:49
whole thing with, you know, privacy and not not needing to
11:52
share this data with another human being.
11:54
Yeah, well, I mean, there's privacy, which is totally
11:57
legitimate. I would be the exact same way.
12:00
But then there's also like, there's poor incentives.
12:03
You know, if you go to your doctor and they're like, you
12:05
know, do you smoke? And you, you're like, oh, yeah,
12:07
I like to have, you know, a couple of cigars on the course
12:09
or whatever and blah, blah, blah.
12:10
They're like, oh, that goes on some clipboard, you know that.
12:13
Then, you know, your life insurance gets a hold of that.
12:16
And they're like, oh, guess what?
12:17
Your premiums went up $300 every single month.
12:20
And you're like, what? Like I would have just said no,
12:23
you know what I mean? So now you're in the position
12:25
and a lot of people do this. They're just like, I am the
12:28
picture of health. I am vegan.
12:31
I fast what a day, a week, because there there's it's just
12:36
a tough place, you know, and I, I feel bad for doctors because
12:39
often times, you know, they're just afraid of catching
12:42
litigation. So they are they have to
12:43
disclose everything. They also, you know, from this
12:47
show, you know, and talking to a lot of different AI OPS, they're
12:49
not incentivized to have more information either, you know?
12:52
So I wonder if in your validation with this, if if
12:55
doctors are a little bit hesitant to want to kind of get
12:58
like the backside of an app like this or if that's an option
13:01
largely because now they're going to have a lot more data
13:04
points that they're going to have to make pull into
13:06
consideration when they're doing diagnosis.
13:09
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14:04
Now back to the show. It's such a great point, right?
14:07
The Holy Grail of what this is going to become the winner at
14:10
the end of the race here really is because everything can be
14:13
pulled right legally now. And the push back into a
14:18
provider or the push back into epic into the patient chart
14:22
requires a ton of more red tape. And it's a five year process.
14:27
You have to go get third party risk assessments, committee
14:29
approvals with each place, right.
14:31
And so, but you know, I've talked to a lot of a lot of
14:35
doctors and lifestyle medicine advocates and value based, value
14:39
based care doctors. And it, it is that they're
14:42
scared, right? If they, if they are saying, OK,
14:45
I read this information that came from an urgent care
14:48
facility in Denver that is in this guy's chart that's fed back
14:51
into there. And I misdiagnosed And based off
14:53
that data, they're on the line, they're their heads on the
14:56
chopping block. And so how to do that super
14:59
carefully, right? We had a urgent, we had a
15:01
additional caregiver feature in an early version of SAVA and we
15:07
ended up taking it out because I was sitting there going, OK, you
15:10
know, make your doc the, the additional caregiver and have
15:13
this data feedback to him, but a certified copy of everything
15:17
that's going on in the app going to them.
15:19
Not only they have to sit there and read it.
15:21
First of all, these people have no time in the day, plus they're
15:25
held accountable. OK, I, I read that and then I
15:28
prescribed this medication still.
15:29
Oops, I forgot they were taking this other medication with
15:32
another doctor on the other side of the country or they went to
15:36
Thailand and had, you know, this treatment done.
15:38
And I, I saw it, but I didn't remember it three months later.
15:43
And so that's a very interesting thing he brought up in terms of,
15:46
you know, how, how, what does that look like?
15:48
So we took it out completely going, you know, I think it'd be
15:51
great for me to get my grandma across the street, you know,
15:54
plugged in so when she gets her blood work done and I can check
15:57
in when's her medication? And she been sleeping all this
15:59
stuff. But on the physician side of
16:03
that, it's, it's, it becomes a liability issue for sure.
16:08
Yeah. What, what's the capacity or
16:10
maybe the liability for the prescriptive nature of AI?
16:14
So is there any kind of like guardrails you have to put on it
16:17
that it's not saying like this is what you should do or like
16:21
make medical recommendations? Yeah.
16:23
You know, a lot of this is that's a very good question on
16:27
that side, right. We are not you were not
16:32
certified as a medical device in the eyes of the FDA and to do
16:36
and neither is Aura and neither are are big companies, right?
16:40
And they they do so so that they could stay away from that.
16:44
But you know, I think that they're the big LLMS are are
16:47
having to deal with that because for us, we don't draw medical
16:51
conclusions. Yeah, prompt engineering and the
16:54
context engineering of the different AIS we use.
16:56
It's hey, do not draw medical inclusions, do not give medical
17:00
advice and all. And, and to kind of safeguard
17:03
that to help people understand that before and after every
17:07
single thing they read inside the app, the following
17:09
information is not medical advice.
17:12
You know, if you're, if you're experiencing something severe,
17:14
go talk to a physician. And then what at the at then
17:17
spits out some information at the end of it.
17:20
The what you just read was not medical advice.
17:23
So we're, we're trying to protect ourselves in that way as
17:25
well as, you know, get the get the AI forbid the AI from doing
17:29
so, but just letting the people know, Hey, no, this is not to
17:32
replace your doctor. This is a, this is a, a stop for
17:37
in between visits, right? This is, this is when you know,
17:40
OK, you had a blood test result come in and you know, for me,
17:44
it's impossible. I'm a UCSF guy.
17:46
It takes, it's like, oh, see you in 2 1/2 months, right?
17:49
It's like, whoa, I mean, I just, I have the results sitting on my
17:53
phone. I mean, how am I not going to
17:55
plug that through Google or through ChatGPT or through Saba,
17:59
right? I mean, who's not going to do
18:01
that in, in this day and age? And so, yeah, I mean, I think
18:04
that the big companies, the Googles and the open AIS of the
18:08
world are, are looking at that. And you know, it's a it's a
18:12
whole process with with the government and with the FDA and
18:17
to be certified. And we're, we're staying away
18:19
from that arena on purpose. Yeah, 100%.
18:22
But, but it opens itself to kind of these anecdotal things that
18:26
you can't necessarily get in the doctor's office.
18:28
A lot of times, you know, it's like a lot of people have high
18:31
blood pressure when they're at the doctor because they're
18:34
stressed out that they're at the doctor.
18:37
You know, it's like, it's like they go hand in hand.
18:40
So you, you like, you have to remove sometimes the, the doctor
18:43
experienced it to, to actually get a direct measurement.
18:46
So you could do that in, in, in like basically keep an eye on
18:51
that yourself through something like Strava.
18:53
You know, another thing that I think would be just a
18:56
application that I could imagine using is, you know, just
18:59
reporting on how you feel because mental health is
19:03
obviously like a big, a big factor for all of us, whether
19:08
it's stress, anxiety, depression, we all go through a
19:10
different phase and we're all trying to work through things
19:13
like that. But for me, it's usually more
19:14
helpful to think about those things in terms of like,
19:17
actually my physicality, you know what I'm saying?
19:20
Where it's like, ah, man, I feel kind of down today.
19:23
And you know, straw could be like, well, bro, you only slept
19:25
4 nights or 4 hours a night for the last four nights.
19:28
Like, Oh yeah, it's not that I'm have a depressed episode.
19:31
I'm tired, you know, or another example is like here in Denver,
19:36
you know, I, I'm a hot yoga guy, so I'll try and go to hot yoga
19:39
five to six days a week. But on top of that, I live in
19:43
the Dang desert. So like hydration is like it's a
19:47
full time job, you know, this is like #3 for the day.
19:50
And I got salt in here and I've tried a million different
19:53
things. So really I'm trying to figure
19:55
out like how much water do I need to drink?
19:58
What's the best liquid? To me right now?
20:00
It seems like bone broth with a little Himalayan salt really
20:03
helps out. But like if I'm reporting on a
20:05
daily basis? Like here's my water, here's my
20:07
food, here's my workouts, here's my diet, here's how I feel.
20:11
You know, then, you know, the LMS can come in and be like, hey
20:13
man, actually we've noticed that if you drink a quart of bone
20:15
broth the next day, you usually feel better 90% of the time.
20:19
You know, so it's like little insights like that on like
20:22
outcomes based on like your your own behavior that I think could
20:26
be like really helpful. You'd call AI or MyFitnessPal to
20:30
log all that? Cal AI now, I was a my business
20:33
pal guy for years. Well, I guess they now acquired
20:36
Cal AI, yeah. Oh wow, that must have been
20:40
recent because I know that that guy, well, he was like a 19 or
20:43
something like that. Yeah, but the rumor it was $100
20:46
million deal. What a savage.
20:49
I know that kid that he went to and he still went.
20:52
He was a freshman at EU so he like did a year at the UI, Heard
20:57
this interview with him and he was like, I don't think I'm
20:59
going to go back next year. Yeah, I wonder why not.
21:02
Yeah. What a stud.
21:03
Yeah, I got to look into that again.
21:05
I know that we read both, we can read data from both of those
21:08
apps in into Saba, which is cool, right?
21:11
You just have to connect it to Apple Health Kit and it's it's
21:15
it's done Dada. So it's it's inside the app Very
21:19
cool. Are you are you elementing or
21:21
for the salts? Or use actual pink Himalayan
21:24
salt? I've I've tried that, I've tried
21:27
probably just about every single hydration thing that's out
21:30
there. What's the best one?
21:32
It's like EBS or something like that.
21:34
Well, I'm not familiar with that one.
21:35
I like I drink element. I think it's called element.
21:37
I call them element because. Yeah, Element's good, Element's
21:40
good. Drip drop is pretty good.
21:42
But my, my go to will be like a giant jar of water with a, a
21:48
full lemon squeezed in and like a pinch of salt like that does
21:52
pretty good. But I think it's the bone broth
21:54
right now. I'm like, there's this like
21:55
Korean bone broth that you can get at Costco that pretty darn
21:59
good. I mean, it's, it seems to like
22:01
be more satiating, you know what I mean?
22:03
Like it actually, maybe it's the salt in it that you can feel
22:06
like the hydration more than just the liquid.
22:08
I don't know. I wrote down bone broth.
22:10
I'm gonna have to talk to my wife about that one.
22:13
She's a she's three bone broth all day long, it seems like, and
22:17
I'm I'm curious what that would be like in one of my salt
22:19
drinks. So I've got this is a full salt
22:21
right here. Like stay salty right here on
22:23
the nice. Nice, so you struggle with the
22:28
the battles of hydration? See, I'm a these days, I'm so
22:32
busy trying to get this thing out.
22:34
I'm I'm my workout regimen is completely shifted.
22:37
And so I've got Anna down in the garage and what I'll do is I'll
22:41
take my early morning calls with my Co founder and my team.
22:45
I'll just be sitting in the sauna, my wife telling me that's
22:48
not working out. I'm like I said, all I could
22:50
squeeze in. I wake up at 4:30 and if I look
22:52
at my phone before I go to the gym, which is normal, I'm done.
22:56
I'm just OK, I've got I've got a fire to put out.
22:58
Oh gosh. And so I'll sit and sauna now
23:01
and that's as good as I'll I'll get pretty much.
23:04
It's so so I sit down there for 45 minutes in my infrared sauna
23:07
and crush a salt, crush a a cur jar filled with water.
23:12
And I'm going to try some lemon and some bone broth in there
23:15
tomorrow for sure. Yeah, yeah, it definitely helps.
23:18
I mean it. I just can't get caught up
23:20
unless I, you know, don't go go to hot yoga for like 3-4 days
23:24
and then I can feel it. But like, it's starting to like,
23:27
like it's, you know, it's all, again, anecdotal stuff.
23:29
So it's like brain fog. Like sometimes I can't pull the
23:31
names out that I want. And I'm like, what is it?
23:34
Am I having a stroke? And it's like, no, dude, you're
23:36
dehydrated again and again and again.
23:39
But I just love the sweat. So what am I going to do?
23:42
That's so funny, dude. So.
23:47
Let's talk about the inception of SAVA.
23:49
Where'd the idea come from? And kind of what were your first
23:51
steps in motion? Yeah, you know, my, my business
23:55
partner, I'm Mitt. He's a, he's a brilliant
23:57
technologist and I'm, you know, at the beck and call of this
24:01
guy. He's just, he's so brilliant and
24:04
it's really, it's his conception.
24:06
We've been together for on a previous startup, I was the head
24:09
of sales and the first sales hire and the third, the first
24:14
employee really of a small startup called Protocol First.
24:18
And these guys, what we were doing is they were going into
24:22
Ehrs and enabling pharmaceutical companies and life science
24:28
companies to have access to this data without having to send a
24:31
human being from Zurich over to NYU Langone to, to do clinical
24:37
trial coordination and, and review.
24:41
And we were, it's kind of cool because we were the first with
24:45
the call. I don't know if you know the
24:46
acronym FIRE, but when it comes to healthcare data
24:49
interoperability, the FIRE standard, you know, developed by
24:52
HL seven against all that's just acronym the heck out of this
24:55
conversation. The the the ability to use fire.
25:00
We were the first fire app that that any epic hospital ever
25:05
utilized to extract patient identifiable health information
25:09
outside of hospital firewalls and send it in our cases to
25:12
electronic data capture systems used by the for the FDA
25:15
submission process. And so COVID came around and all
25:20
of a sudden every pilot we had, all these pharma's were coming.
25:23
Oh my gosh, I can't get my data out of these healthcare
25:26
institutions. And so Roche Pharma via Flatiron
25:30
Health bought that company and swallowed it up pretty quickly
25:34
then after. And we were sitting there one
25:37
day at midnight trying to figure out what we wanted to do next.
25:40
And we noticed that the 21st Century ONC Cures Act, this
25:46
piece of legislation that come through that basically says, you
25:49
know, third parties like like Sabo or Chachi BT or, you know,
25:54
Amazon can, can get access to someone's health data records as
26:00
long as they credentialize themselves and should have gone
26:04
wow. I mean, we've been all through
26:06
fire and we're just looking at going, hey, man, we've we've
26:09
been doing this stuff for a long time.
26:10
That'd be how cool is that? You know, there's a little
26:13
asterisk in there. If you, if you read the, the
26:15
fine print that you don't need to be HIPAA compliant with that
26:18
data, which is a problem. I think that that is have it
26:23
happening in the industry today, right?
26:24
There's, there's all sorts of nefarious characters and, and
26:28
capitalists, if you will, that can go out and do anything they
26:31
want with this data. But from a population health
26:33
perspective, what an awesome thing.
26:35
OK, people can actually, you know, make decisions that don't
26:38
need to go through epic and go through opening it up to third
26:41
parties. And so we started building it
26:43
and started building these pipes, if you will, we call
26:45
ourselves a blue collar workers just going into a healthcare
26:49
system, building that, that that pipe between us and them and
26:53
moving on to the next. And then AI started blowing up
26:58
and saying, oh, what a cool thing.
26:59
Instead of going to WebMD or Googling your symptoms, you
27:02
know, to actually get, get answers to these questions that
27:06
are actually rooted in your data.
27:08
Like it's dead, you know, like, why, why do I have a headache?
27:12
Do I have brain cancer? Like, wait, wait, no, you use My
27:16
Fitness Pal and you log 4 glasses of Chardonnay 9:00.
27:21
What do you mean, you know, or no, you're dehydrated.
27:24
You've been doing hot yoga six days a week and trying to, you
27:27
know, provide those insights. And so, and then you look at
27:31
that. We looked at the wearables,
27:32
right? I've got my whoop here charging
27:34
at the moment going well, OK, Like what a cool thing that you
27:38
could have all that stuff in one place.
27:40
Most people, whether you're a biohacker, you're managing A
27:44
chronic disease, or, you know, a boomer, whoever you are, most
27:47
people have more than one, maybe not more than one wearable, but
27:50
you know, like if you have Strava or you have my fitness
27:53
power, you have a Peloton and a Whoop or a Garmin.
27:57
I use my Garmin when I ski and I use my Apple, which when I'm
28:00
sitting in the office, being able to put all this data and
28:05
plus, you know, I used to live in Utah.
28:06
I have, I have health records with the University of Utah with
28:09
UCSF, with UCLA when I was in college down in Southern
28:12
California and be like, OK, what about one place?
28:15
Instead of all these logins, we're just, you can have just a
28:18
unified experience and track your goals and see how many
28:22
steps you've done through this, my Peloton and my, my sauna
28:27
downstairs and, and track your weight through winning smart
28:29
scales and just a, a way to have one app instead of all these
28:35
things that people have. So that's what that's what
28:37
sparked it. And we were early on, right.
28:39
I had to convince people a year and a half ago that this was a
28:42
good idea. Then all of a sudden in October,
28:45
barely me launched, right. Google came out with with their
28:48
version of this and you know that that's pretty interesting
28:53
product. They, they ask for your Social
28:54
Security number as you sign up. I mean, who's going to share
28:57
their medical records with Google?
28:59
Not me, but yeah, to each their own.
29:02
And then a couple months later, you've got ChatGPT and Anthropic
29:05
watching the same week. And now just last week or two
29:09
weeks ago, Amazon's gotten in, Microsoft kind of rebranded
29:12
their cut with their Copilot product and again asking you for
29:15
their medical records. And so it's, it's heated up
29:18
really fast. You know, it's, it's, it's
29:20
extremely validating also, you know, a bunch of £700 gorillas
29:26
in the room now. So it's kind of a, it's a
29:28
humbling experience from a, from a startup operator's
29:31
perspective, but. The the important differentiator
29:34
is you don't share anybody's information with anybody,
29:36
correct I. Mean the whole thing.
29:39
We don't have accounts first and foremost.
29:42
Yeah, you know, the whole I think about, think about, you
29:45
know, encrypted and and and transit and rest and de
29:49
identified. We go one step higher.
29:51
We're unidentified. Like I don't want 23andMe taught
29:56
us all right, we're not doing anything with their data.
29:59
We're just storing it. Don't worry about it.
30:01
And then one day they have a bad quarter and oh, by the way,
30:05
we're monetizing this data now in a million ways and it's
30:08
already happened. You can't, you know, you can't
30:10
make the decision. So for us, we're not, we don't
30:13
have any identifiable way to track people.
30:16
Plus we're using local storage on device.
30:20
The app gets bigger over time as you get more medical records and
30:23
more things come in there, right, as opposed to storing
30:26
this data in the cloud. I don't want to sit here one day
30:30
like I need a bigger sauna. I'm going to start monetizing my
30:33
people's my users data. We won't even have the option or
30:36
some company comes in and acquires us there.
30:39
There's no data sitting there It's on people's phones.
30:41
It's never kept in our servers, whether it's a medical record or
30:46
a a workout on whoop right and the aura ring's another one
30:51
right. I, this was an aura ring up
30:53
until September. I was so pissed.
30:55
It's you had you catch the aura ring thing.
30:57
It's September where the the CEO got on stage and oh, by the way,
31:01
we're, you know, we have an $800 million deal, a year deal with
31:04
Palantir. You're like.
31:06
Dude what? Wait, do I am I, I do I at least
31:09
do I still have to pay 8 bucks a month?
31:10
Oh, I do OK. So there's just no incentive at
31:14
all and you're just, you're just selling.
31:16
Oh, it's all being done safely, right?
31:17
Oh, actually, like can I get in and look at the source code on
31:21
that? Really.
31:23
Like I don't, I don't. We've the, the consumers lost
31:25
trust. And so that's our big thing is,
31:27
is, but the, you know, there's a problem.
31:30
If you talk about it too much, people start going, why is this
31:33
guy talking about security and privacy?
31:35
And no one's can believe. And I can, I can lie through a
31:38
privacy policy just like any other company.
31:40
I can lie to you on this podcast recording right now.
31:43
But it's one of those things check out the the app growing on
31:46
your phone, turn on airplane mode and ask questions to these
31:49
AI agents. And just this is not happening
31:52
on the Internet. And we feel you feel like I
31:55
can't, I can't name another company in the space that's
31:59
doing it. And I think.
32:02
Well, in the audience of this podcast, they're all building
32:05
locally. I mean, they're, they're all,
32:07
you know, 6 I, you know, Mac minis deep on their desk because
32:11
they don't want that relay either, you know, So I think
32:14
it's, it's incredibly important because, yeah, everyone's going
32:17
to be trying to do this because you can, you can just see in
32:20
their eyes, like, I mean, the value of that.
32:23
It's like they're, they're, you know, non sanctioned clinical
32:26
trials for everything. You know, it's like, how many
32:30
Fritos can people really eat before they keel over?
32:33
Turns out it's about £10. We have the data, you know what
32:36
I mean? Like you, you're just running
32:39
free trials for these companies and like, it's gross and that
32:42
there will be repercussions. I think, you know, unfortunately
32:46
the, the, the, the temperature of culture right now is very
32:50
distrustful from like, you know, big tech for sure, government
32:54
for sure. You know, once they're all
32:56
intertwined it it and it seems like they're just cozy, cozy
32:59
bedmates. Now.
33:01
It just it seems to put hang us out to dry, put it that way.
33:05
Totally right. And who knows what happens
33:06
downstream, right? That's the whole idea.
33:09
And it's not even, you know, I'm not worried about a, you know, a
33:12
Russian hacker getting my medical information or, or, you
33:16
know, something like that happening.
33:17
I'm like worried about an insurance company having access
33:22
to, oh, hey, you know, I've got Steve's wearables, I've got his
33:24
medical records. I've got every conversation he
33:26
has with the two of them. And I'm smart.
33:29
I'm a payer. I call those guys payers because
33:31
they have a lot of money and there's a lot of intelligent
33:34
people that work at these companies and they, it's easy
33:37
for them to run a quick algorithm like hey, Steve's pre
33:39
diabetic and he doesn't even know.
33:41
His doctor doesn't even know. And we're going to boost that
33:44
premium up until the day he finds out.
33:47
And then we're just going to stop covering them, right?
33:50
That's Hipaa's health insurance portability.
33:53
The first 3 letters, man, it's, it's all about protecting
33:56
ourselves from those guys. And so I just, I think it's
33:59
scary. I think that when the dust, like
34:02
you said, you know, I think due process and these things will
34:06
happen eventually when the dust settles.
34:08
Like there's some, some nefarious characters that are
34:11
kind of taking advantage of a piece of legislation that was
34:14
passed, you know, 3-4 years ago now.
34:16
And it just blows our mind. It just every day when these new
34:21
prize come out, I just go wait, I'm going to share my I'm going
34:24
to share my data with with this massive tech company that only
34:29
makes money by harvesting data, right, and like that with my
34:33
most private information that had that they that I have on me.
34:39
It's absurd. It's absolutely absurd.
34:42
I know, and you know, that's why I get so excited about the, the
34:45
medical devices and the applications and the people that
34:48
are trying to bridge and a help for this because we're in such a
34:51
dire place. You know, if it's not on device,
34:54
if they have their way, then you'd be going to the, you know,
34:57
you could be like, oh, duh, I got a my tooth is killing me,
35:00
man, can you fix it? And he'd be like, well, we'd
35:02
love to cover you, but we noticed you had ice cream three
35:05
times this month. So we're not going to.
35:07
It's like what, you know? I wish it wasn't so like
35:12
nefarious as that, but it sure feels like it is sometimes.
35:15
It's getting that's where we're heading.
35:17
If unless something happens, that's the direction we're
35:19
heading in. And I mean, we're going to live
35:21
or die on that cross. We're not.
35:24
I'm not going to play in that space.
35:25
It's 2026. Data is king.
35:27
I get it. If I want like a beachfront
35:30
house in Lake Tahoe should probably start harvesting
35:33
people's data, I'm not going to play in that space.
35:36
I'd rather go open up a lemonade stand outside my house and just
35:40
do it that way instead. I'm not I'm not going to do it.
35:43
And, and it remains, you know, to be seen.
35:46
I think it's still really early, but I think, you know, you look
35:48
at some of these products, these companies and, you know, I think
35:53
Chachi Buti has already kind of pivoted away.
35:55
You know, they're, they're they're trying to to to compete
35:59
with, with Claude and, and, and with, with on the, with the
36:03
engineering side. And I think that the the
36:06
American consumers more intelligent than just being
36:10
willing to do this. But maybe I'm wrong.
36:14
Yeah, totally. Well, you know, GPT has got
36:16
their own PR problems now they're you have to pick one at
36:19
a time for sure. But let's talk about your house
36:21
in Tahoe. Now you priced this at 10 bucks
36:25
a year. So how did you kind of land on
36:28
that pricing model? I mean, again, concierge
36:32
medicine, right? I've got buddies.
36:33
It's the city who have these, you know, that asks doctors they
36:37
can just go visit, that they have their mental health all
36:40
handled in one place, part of their gym and their spa and red
36:44
light therapy. I mean, not, no one can afford
36:48
these tools like who the average person cannot.
36:50
And so from a population health perspective, we looked at and
36:53
said, hey, you know, we're a small team because we have
36:56
direct access to these Ehrs and we don't go through health
36:59
information exchanges or any vendors.
37:00
We have 314 1000 connected healthcare institutions in the
37:05
states right now in the app directly not going through the B
37:08
wells and the Commonwealth and the health X's of the world
37:11
direct direct links. And I we don't have to pay for
37:15
those API calls, right. So we've and the same thing with
37:18
the with the wearables and we didn't go directly to WOOP and
37:21
directly to Garmin and directly to all these big companies and
37:24
and to pay for these API calls. We went to Apple Health to go
37:28
into the loop app, click over Apple share to Apple Health.
37:31
Now all of a sudden Sava's reading it.
37:32
And that's for free too. And so we've, we've, we've made
37:35
it in a way that's it's cheap to operate.
37:38
It's, it's not, it's not like it's a big lift.
37:41
And so for the cost of coffee, you know, I just think the value
37:46
we want population density on this thing.
37:49
It's not, it's not a, if I was charging $150.00 a year or
37:55
$150.00 a month, like we have people in the space that are
37:58
doing that. I think it's absurd, right?
38:00
I mean, you can go into the Epic for free and get all this
38:03
information. You can run this stuff through
38:05
the free, you can download all of your health data, all of your
38:08
medical records data, all the things you're doing with your
38:10
TRT therapy and throw it all into the free version of GPT.
38:14
Yes, it's all in the cloud now and it's all out there, but you
38:17
can do that for free. I think we just wanted to create
38:20
something that's accessible and, and, and includes everyone.
38:24
And really the global footprint of Sava is the goal, right When
38:29
you go to the website, we have a thing called Universal Records
38:31
and I've lost it in the last six months trying to get the
38:35
consumer app built and getting Apple approved and all this
38:37
stuff. But the goal for this is, you
38:40
know, OK, maybe 100 million people in Western Europe and the
38:44
US have access to the EH Rs and you can get those people
38:48
connected over the next five years.
38:50
And that same time period, I can get a billion people in
38:53
underserved regions around the world, right?
38:55
Places, places where at a couple $100 million of an EHR build.
39:01
It's not coming to Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.
39:04
It's not in my son's lifetime. Like modern healthcare and
39:07
digital health cannot. They can't, there's no
39:10
infrastructure, they can't afford any of that.
39:12
So for us, I look at SAVA as more of a global tool for this.
39:17
If you're, whether you're living in, in rural US or, or on the
39:21
moon, you can have, you have access to, to the same data set.
39:26
You put all your data in there, whether, if you have, if you
39:29
don't have an EHR upload documents.
39:30
It's it treats it in chronological order as a visit,
39:34
try to create this, this history.
39:37
And so that's really the reason is that, you know, the guy in,
39:40
in Dara slump Tanzania can swallow $10 a year and, and
39:45
trying to make this more of a of a global footprint as opposed to
39:49
just in, in, in the US and, and Western Europe it's.
39:52
Beautiful and a couple of couple of thoughts on that.
39:55
You know, I think that's really the future for software now
39:57
because as the the price of software goes to 0 and you can
40:01
just like, oh, I just vodka that myself and you're just like,
40:04
yeah, but do I really want to when they've absolutely nailed
40:06
it right here and it's it's inexpensive.
40:09
You know, and then the second component is this is an amazing
40:12
add on for healthcare providers where the value add is enormous.
40:16
It doesn't have anything to do with them.
40:17
So they can easily put that into their, their, their packages
40:23
with, you know, with very little expense that people use
40:26
everyday. You know, it's like, I get
40:28
emails from United Healthcare all the time about like, check
40:31
this out, check that out. And 1 was like, check out our,
40:35
you know, diet and wealth management tool.
40:38
And I went there and it was like A blog with kids on a swing set.
40:41
I'm like, bro, what? What am I doing over here on
40:43
your blog? United Healthcare?
40:45
I don't want this where as as opposed to like a tool that
40:48
would integrate into like my daily practice all the time.
40:52
You know, it seems, it seems really smart.
40:55
So let's talk about go to market because you're just approved
40:58
with Apple iOS, which means like you're in the game now, like
41:01
you're, you're ready to get users aside from, you know, the
41:04
the AI for founders user lift. How else are you planning on
41:09
getting subscribers? So it's a great question, right?
41:12
We met because we got approved on Saturday or Sunday this
41:15
weekend. So cool.
41:17
So, you know, it's time to kick tires to it.
41:19
It's like, OK, you know, here it comes next maybe 3 weeks, month
41:24
probably going to put this out there on the App Store.
41:27
This is our first foray in the consumer health.
41:30
The consumer are facing anything for my my business partner and I
41:33
and so we are we have this whole mentality for no stone unturned,
41:38
right. We're we're doing podcasts where
41:41
we have 2000 people on the beta that I've have gotten by having
41:46
one-on-one conversations for the past nine months.
41:50
All day today, I've been on the phone talking with people,
41:53
evangelizing them one by one. And then my ask with, with every
41:56
single one of them is, hey, like whether you're a physician or
41:59
you're, you know, a, a, a patient advocate or you work for
42:03
a non profit or whoever you are, yes, I want access to your
42:07
people, but more so just like, you know, talk to your aunt,
42:10
just pay it forward one person at a time, right?
42:12
It's a, it's a, it's a free app with a $10 a year premium on it,
42:17
right? If, if it's not like it's we're
42:20
asking a lot. So the go to market is all
42:24
consumer facing and doing a lot of podcasts.
42:26
This is maybe my 15th or 20th podcast I've done a recording
42:30
for in the last couple months and trying to get on as many as
42:34
I can to kind of talk about it and the differentiators with how
42:38
we're doing security and privacy and a lot of big time doctors.
42:42
I think that you know about 1000 of my 2000 participants are all
42:46
MD's and not just normal ones. Ones that are lifestyle medicine
42:51
doctors are my favorite group of people.
42:53
I didn't know who they were a year ago and everyone I talked
42:57
to is a lifestyle medicine doc. Those guys are cool or.
43:00
Don't you have any specialists? You're like, oh, what are you
43:03
guys doing? What are you?
43:05
Or like, oh, you know, you can reverse diabetes.
43:07
You know, there's ways to, you know, eat healthier, work out
43:10
more. It's like, well, you know, that
43:12
that's like those guys like 6 years ago, we're like normal
43:16
doctors are going don't listen to those guys take the meds, do
43:19
the do do the insulin injections, Like no, no, no, no,
43:21
no. And so trying to talk to, you
43:24
know, I think there's 9 million followers on LinkedIn just just
43:28
through our 2000 people have gotten trying to, you know, get
43:32
out of the day. And I mean, you do all these
43:34
things, but it's a total crapshoot, right?
43:36
We're, we're, we're unfunded, we're, we're bootstraps, which
43:41
is, you know, another kind of that goes into what we're
43:44
talking about with go to market. I can't, I'd love to, to give
43:47
all the money in the world to American College of lifestyle
43:50
medicine and American Diabetes, American Heart and go through
43:53
these patient advocacy groups and these cancer coaches and
43:57
like, just like let's go. But without that, it's all
43:59
organic. Just having conversations 1 by 1
44:02
And right, we have verticals like you mentioned it.
44:05
If, if, if you, you know, when I was leaving UCSF of my when my
44:09
son was born a couple years ago, my wife and I were walking out
44:12
and the outpatient nurse goes, hey, by the way, you get the
44:15
call map for free on us. I'm like, what?
44:18
I've been paying for that for years.
44:21
What? And I looked it up and all those
44:22
guys are doing, is this a business relationship, the
44:25
marketing department? OK.
44:26
Hey, man, you know, we have this thing.
44:27
We think it's super cool, it's safe, it's secure.
44:31
It's a way for, you know, to people for for people to
44:34
basically force them to meditate.
44:35
I think people who say they meditate, I don't believe them.
44:38
It's just impossible. Like at least for me, I can't
44:41
think one second without a thought in my head.
44:43
It's impossible. And they all they're doing is,
44:45
hey, you know, instead of $10 a year in our case, OK, $10 a
44:48
year, OK, they buy it from us for $3 a year at bulk and start
44:52
giving it to people on the way out the door.
44:53
That's what I want this with healthcare on that vertical as
44:59
well as taking place with, you know, like the Maha movement.
45:01
We're, we're kind of, you know, doing all that we can with make
45:04
America healthy again. It's kind of a there's a lot of
45:07
trendy stuff that's, that's going on over there.
45:11
You know, the, the health tech ecosystem and CMS access is
45:15
really cool on if you're, if you're right up on the, the
45:18
access model and that that's going to be launching this July.
45:22
So try to do a lot of things on the enterprise side of the
45:24
business as well to support what we're doing with consumers, But
45:27
it all starts with consumers. We can't do anything without.
45:31
Hey, man, we got these this amount of people in the app and
45:33
it's growing and it's, you know, we still have to it's a battle
45:36
right now. It's a If you have any ideas I
45:39
am all ears right an intern. I got some ideas I'll tell you
45:44
off air, but I, I tell you what Bootstrap founders are my
45:47
absolute favorite man, you know that.
45:49
So I, I congratulations on getting it through the iOS
45:53
store. That has a major hurdle I know
45:55
so it's really exciting. So if you're thinking about like
45:58
throwing a a dart at the calendar, what's going to be the
46:01
launch date you. Know, I think we probably will
46:04
launch, I mean looking at the calendar right now, maybe an an
46:09
Earth Day 420, maybe something like that.
46:14
That's the first time I've thought about it.
46:16
Yeah. But that's that's looking at the
46:18
calendar, maybe something like that.
46:20
I think I had my I have 3 unpaid interns shout out interns.
46:25
They all reached out to me from different colleges around the
46:27
country. I think that's always tell
46:28
potential investors like what a KPI, you know, got all these
46:31
kids coming to me say, hey bro, I'll help any way I can.
46:35
This is rad as well as my, my sales guy shove them on on on on
46:40
payroll. We're you know, we're changing
46:43
our entire process. We're talking to journalists for
46:47
the next month, we're talking to press, we're talking to
46:49
bloggers, we're talking to podcasters as as now that this.
46:54
I mean, it's a six month battle to get apple the app.
46:57
I mean, it was an insane I could, I could have, I would
46:59
have bet the farm under six months, but I would have lost
47:03
everything on that one. Incredible.
47:07
Well, and shout out to those interns too.
47:09
That's really smart. You know, one of the founders of
47:12
this program, AI native student.com, that's what they
47:16
recommend too right now, because all these college students, you
47:19
know, are midway through their degree and they're looking at
47:21
the at the at the end of the day, like a lot of those jobs,
47:24
the job market just is not going to exist in two years the way it
47:27
is now or two years ago. So, you know, they're always
47:30
encouraging, like go out and connect with AI companies right
47:35
now. So shout out to them.
47:37
Yeah, smart guys, all, all across the board.
47:39
We've had maybe 6 in total over the summer.
47:41
We had two others, one from USC, one at University of Maryland,
47:45
and they were busier, you know, busy with their studies right
47:49
now, but hopefully we'll get them back this summer.
47:51
And if there's any interns out there, hit me up on LinkedIn for
47:56
sure. I'm I could use all the help I
47:58
could get. Amazing.
47:59
Steven, this is so exciting. When you do hit that official
48:02
launch date, let me know. We'll do everything we can to
48:05
help distribute that message. I can't wait to check it out.
48:09
Sava. What's the website for Sava?
48:12
SAVVA dot AI, Sava dot AI and you can sign up for the beta
48:18
right now and after you click, if you're interested, about a
48:23
minute later you'll receive an invite from test Flight and
48:25
you'll you'll get on it. Incredible and the best place to
48:28
connect with you personally? LinkedIn.
48:31
LinkedIn or if you're, if anyone's ever in Sonoma, CA, the
48:34
little village of Sonoma. I was born and raised here.
48:37
And if you go down the Soma Plaza and scream my name, I'll
48:40
hear you and I'll, I'll meet you down there for, for coffee,
48:43
beer, wine, food, whatever it is.
48:46
That's, that's another good way to get a hold of me.
48:48
Come to Sonoma. Beer, wine, good food.
48:50
If you hear a conch shell, that's me.
48:54
I've been waiting for it, man, a lot.
48:56
And you said you're coming out. I'm waiting.
48:59
Amazing, Steven, Congratulations.
49:00
Thanks so much. For coming on the show.
49:02
Thanks, Ryan. You are about to spend anywhere
49:05
from 100,000 to $300,000 on your kids college education and
49:10
that's not a small bet. And right now there's a very
49:12
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49:15
Not because they weren't smart enough, not because they didn't
49:18
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49:21
nobody told them. Employers are hiring AI native
49:24
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49:27
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49:29
And most colleges are not teaching this, not even close.
49:33
AI Native student.com is the program that fills that gap.
49:36
It takes high school and college students and teaches them how to
49:39
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49:43
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49:45
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49:48
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49:51
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49:55
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49:56
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49:59
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