Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Empathy pt. 1

Transcript

Empathy pt. 1 · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: empathic host, Abraham, and I'm your.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Feels for you host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: that people and animals do and the policies that people
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: put in place, and sometimes we talk about our emotions
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: or our ability to sense emotions, which is what we're
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: doing today.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like empathy is a long lost
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: art on some levels, and then also there are people
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: who have weaponized it. And then also I feel like
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: there are people that say they feel it really really
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: really strongly. But you know, we're going to unpack kind
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: of all of that stuff because at the end of
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  Speaker 2: the day, we are really just going to start answering
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: the question of what even is empathy.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: You know, this actually started as a much more a
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  Speaker 1: much smaller, more I guess specifically oriented topic about an
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: aspect of empathy. And it just felt like, as in
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: putting together the notes for this, that like we had
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: to talk about what empathy is first, and that was
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  Speaker 1: a much larger discussion. And so because there's so much
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  Speaker 1: to unpack in this concept, to talk through it philosophically
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  Speaker 1: to try and get the definition locked down, to give
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: examples and non examples and implications and talk about the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: development of this and humans and how it's relevant to culture. Like,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: there's just so much to do, and so this is
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: definitely going to span at the very least two parts.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: We don't know how far will go, possibly three or more,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: but at least two, because there's already enough content for
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: more than one in what we've got. But we'll just
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: keep building on this to continue to expand that discussion.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think this is going to turn into anything
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  Speaker 1: like our series on a Day that we did earlier
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: this year. Yeah, but it'll be at least to a
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  Speaker 1: couple of parts.
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  Speaker 2: I think it'll be fascinating. I think it's one of
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  Speaker 2: those things. I think that we hear the term a lot,
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  Speaker 2: but maybe we don't really have a good idea of
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  Speaker 2: what it actually is.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think to say the least, as we get
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: into the definition, we don't know exactly what it is,
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  Speaker 1: how it develops, what it means, all of that, And
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  Speaker 1: that's okay, you know. I think it'll be useful to
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  Speaker 1: have the discussion, and at some point we will arrive
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  Speaker 1: at something closer to a consensus. Maybe maybe not on
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: this podcast, but someday researchers might or we might accept that.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes we use very nebulous terms because it is practically
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: useful to do so.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Nevertheless, if you are joining us for the very first time,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: this is like the first time you've ever tuned into
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: this podcast. First welcome, So happy to have you here.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Glad you found your way to this podcast, and we'd
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: like to wish you a happy Aged care employee Day
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: if you live in Australia.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everywhere else, it's just a day. Actually, not just
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: the day. It's Mom's equal pay day everywhere else.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Very nice. It is National Beach Party Day.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Ah love that being in a beach town myself. It's
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: also National Lighthouse Day. We've got a pretty cool lighthouse here.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I've been to the top of it. It's scary. Ooh.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: That goes hand in hand with beach Day too, Yeah.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: It does. I love it.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: It is National Psychiatric Technician Appreciation Day. Appreciate those psychiatric technicians.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, most definitely. That's more power to y'all. It's National
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Raspberries and Cream Day ooh mmmm.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: It is. It is National Opportunity day, So take an
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: opportunity to kill your raspberries and cream.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I love that it's National Sea Serpent Day. I read
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: a thing recently that historians think that sailors used to
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: think that sea serpents existed because whales were slapping their
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: dicks against boats, and they thought that that was like
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: the tentacle of the sea serpent, which makes me. That
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  Speaker 2: brings me like a level of way that you just
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: don't understand.
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  Speaker 1: I hope that that's true and makes me think that
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  Speaker 1: we now need to revisit our Orca episode, maybe take
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: a slightly different angle.
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  Speaker 2: Uh huh, Yeah, that's a whole that was a whole
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: new fad we didn't cover.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, moving on. It is a particularly preposterous packaging day.
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  Speaker 1: Many of us receive these things in the mail and
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: we're like, wow, why did you put it in that
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: box or that word shaped thing? We can celebrate that now, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's preposterous. It's a professional speakers day. You and I
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: have both done some gigs where we have been doing
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: some professional speaking, which is fun. So it's nice to
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: get a day.
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  Speaker 1: Finally, this podcast is kind of a professional speaking Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is also many people's worst nightmare. Yeah, we should
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: do a whole episode on public speaking. There's there's kind
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: of a lot there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, it is Purple Heart Day.
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  Speaker 2: It certainly is. It's also Exercise with your Child Week.
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  Speaker 1: It is International Assistance Dog Week. Any dog week is
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: something to celebrate, but sure, assistance dogs very important. For sure.
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  Speaker 2: Every day is dog Day and we love that. It's
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: uh International clown Week, which is scary for some people,
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  Speaker 2: I would imagine.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Indeed, it is International Mathematicians Week, which is also scary
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  Speaker 1: for some people. A lot of scary stuff going on.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what is this October? It's a National Bargain Hunting Week.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. It is National Minority Donor Awareness Week.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: This might be scary at Florida and Idaho.
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  Speaker 2: Very specific. It is also Simplify your Life Week, which
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: sounds really nice.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that one. I'll take that on. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it is Weird Contest Week. The Weird Contest this week
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: is to simplify your life.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good luck with that. It's a World Breastfeeding Week,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: and may.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: As well say it's actually breastfeeding month, so you finally
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: get to breastfeed your child. Hopefully they were not born
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: in January. Just kidding.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah. I was a breastfed January baby, so
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  Speaker 2: I feel like I turned out okay, but that was
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: before the laws. You know, it's Marine Week, which you know,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: being in Florida's wonderful for.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: That sure, and Child Vision Awareness Month very important.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: It's Beautiful in your Skin month, like you yourself and your
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: own skin, not me and your skin.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Just to be clear or anyone else in your skin.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Don't wear other people's skin, yeah, good idea, or animals skin.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just wear your own skin or where maybe your
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: skin skin, common plants, synthetic textiles, is beautiful in your skin?
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe a nudist month thing. Maybe we did a whole
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: episode on that. It is a cheerleading safety month, that
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: one is worth actually spending some time on at some
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: point as well.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna talk about cheerleading in a such a
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: fun way, especially because like Daytona has the National Cheerleading
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  Speaker 2: Competition every year.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that it happens at the.
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  Speaker 2: Band show, which was like right around the corner from
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: the Starbucks I used to work in, and it was
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: a nightmare to work because everybody wanted extra caramel, caramel frappuccinos.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, does Goodjira play the cheerleading competition.
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  Speaker 2: No, but they played the Olympics. They should play They
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  Speaker 2: should play the cheerleading events.
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  Speaker 1: That's actually why I mentioned because the Olympics. We'll talk
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  Speaker 1: more about that at the end. Let's actually get to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: our episode here, because as much fun as it is
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to listen to us rattle off a bunch of holidays
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: rapid fire, paced style into your ears, that's not what
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  Speaker 1: we're doing today, And actually that's not what we do.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, we do a version of that every day,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: but that's not the point of this podcast. The point
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: is to talk about psychology things. And the psychology thing
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about this time is this empathy thing that
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  Speaker 1: we mentioned, and as you talked about at the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: there is no real consensus on a definition, but we
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  Speaker 1: sort of get close ish, so we could and we
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  Speaker 1: may have to spend an entire episode trying to define empathy.
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  Speaker 1: But the greatest consensus so far is that no one
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  Speaker 1: agrees exactly what this is, much like consciousness in that way,
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  Speaker 1: but there are some sort of very broad strokes, imprecise,
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  Speaker 1: colloquial definitions even that will get used for research sometimes,
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  Speaker 1: but clearly, delineating the parameters of empathy has proved somewhat
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  Speaker 1: elusive for people who want to find a way to
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  Speaker 1: use this term in a way that is consistent and pragmatic.
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  Speaker 2: You know what's funny is I just had the thought,
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  Speaker 2: if anybody is listening to this and you are a
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  Speaker 2: comic book fan, there's a run on green lantern where
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  Speaker 2: the emotional spectrum powers different colored rings. So like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the red ring is raids, your ring is avarice, the
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  Speaker 2: green ring as will power, so on and so forth.
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  Speaker 1: It's like synesthesia meets empathy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so the Indigo tribe is one of
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  Speaker 2: the groups that uses the power rings, and they are
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  Speaker 2: identified as like the weird, like strange, the ones that
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  Speaker 2: are on the outskirts. Nobody really understands what they do
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  Speaker 2: or how their powers work, and they speak their own
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  Speaker 2: language and nothing and all that stuff, and their emotion
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  Speaker 2: is compassion and empathy.
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  Speaker 1: Ooh, I'd be in the Indigo tripe.
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  Speaker 2: It's the only group that like everybody's like, what the
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  Speaker 2: fuck is going on? Fun? Anyway, I thought that was
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  Speaker 2: like a yeah, it's kind of a fun thing. So no,
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  Speaker 2: I did that so Etymologically, the term empathy is not
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  Speaker 2: very old, steming from the Greek m which means in
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  Speaker 2: and pathos feeling empathia meaning feeling in or empatheia.
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  Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, yeah, something like that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, Greeks empathea meaning feeling in. Empathy first arrived
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  Speaker 2: in the German language in eighteen fifty eight as I'm
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  Speaker 2: few lung, I'm few lung.
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  Speaker 1: There you go.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not coined as empathy in English until
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  Speaker 2: the nineteen hundreds.
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  Speaker 1: Interestingly, it is much newer than I would have thought. Really.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty five, readers Digest that k publication that
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  Speaker 1: is so well known and loved by many in modern times,
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  Speaker 1: of course, defined empathy as quote the ability to appreciate
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  Speaker 1: the other feelings without yourself becoming so emotionally involved that
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  Speaker 1: your judgment is affected end quote.
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  Speaker 2: Broadly, the process of empathy is described as either labeling
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  Speaker 2: and imagining other thoughts and emotions, or adopting their feelings
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  Speaker 2: and thoughts as your own. And so you've kind of
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  Speaker 2: see some descriptions along both of those.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it sort of oscillates between this you feel
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  Speaker 1: what other people feel, or you get what other people
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  Speaker 1: feel and that it can be either one of those
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  Speaker 1: things in broad strokes. Of course, again, what that means,
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  Speaker 1: how it's defined, how it's measured, gets trickier. Now, this
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: is understandably a pretty complex relationship between a variety of
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: human experiences, from emotions and language, or from emotions to language,
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  Speaker 1: that they're tied together. It's a relationship between emotions and
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  Speaker 1: our lifelanguage that enables an analysis in understanding like the
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: contextual features of a particular situation, a history of an
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  Speaker 1: association between that situation and someone else's non vocal reactions,
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  Speaker 1: and a clear distinction between ourselves and someone else in
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  Speaker 1: that situation. So that's a whole that's a very jargon
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  Speaker 1: heavy way to sort of start to delineate where the
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  Speaker 1: different moving pieces are and empathy.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So basically what we're saying is we have to
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  Speaker 2: have some experience with a relatively wide range of emotions,
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  Speaker 2: we recognize familiar body language and situations that are likely
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  Speaker 2: to evoke those emotions, and get that someone else will
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  Speaker 2: have their own unique feelings and reaction to that situation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a much simpler way of saying, well, what
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  Speaker 1: I said, and it makes more sense. Yeah, that's great
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  Speaker 1: because that's sometimes helpful to start with very technical and
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  Speaker 1: then unpack it and much more easy to understand language. Right, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: so let's take an example here. Let's say we're at
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  Speaker 1: a gathering and we see that there is one person
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  Speaker 1: in this gathering who's kind of sitting off by themselves.
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  Speaker 1: They're not talking to anyone. We might look at them
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  Speaker 1: and recognize their lack of participation, so we see that
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  Speaker 1: they're doing something different from what others are doing, right,
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  Speaker 1: and understand that they might feel bored, scared. They might
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  Speaker 1: otherwise be distressed at the situation. And we can kind
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  Speaker 1: of know that because otherwise we might otherwise expect that
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  Speaker 1: they would be participating socially, and that would then change
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: our interpretation of their behavior if they were doing that.
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  Speaker 1: So is this how they feel they're sitting there alone?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe we don't actually know though.
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  Speaker 2: And they might say something to vocalize their thoughts and feelings.
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  Speaker 2: But even then is that accurate. Is it possible they
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  Speaker 2: don't know how to describe their feelings. It is also
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  Speaker 2: possible they don't know how they are feeling, and it
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  Speaker 2: is also possible that they don't want to share their
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  Speaker 2: actual feelings, so they may lie to you or tell
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  Speaker 2: you what they think you want to hear so they
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  Speaker 2: can avoid maybe some further emotional distress or social interactions
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  Speaker 2: in that particular circumstance.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe they don't know, maybe they don't. They're just
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  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, participation and that social setting doesn't is
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  Speaker 1: an appealing to them in that moment, and they don't
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  Speaker 1: know why. They don't know what's going on that they
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  Speaker 1: feel like that just doesn't seem like something that they
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  Speaker 1: want to do. Maybe they do. I mean, they very
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  Speaker 1: well might, but I'm just saying that sometimes we'll ask
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: them and they'll try and come up with an answer
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  Speaker 1: and maybe even post talk rationalize sort of why they
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: came up to that answer. But they might not necessarily
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  Speaker 1: know exactly in the moment why they're feeling that way.
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  Speaker 1: So we don't exactly know in that moment what they're
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  Speaker 1: feeling either. But again, thinking about all these other contextual features,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: because we started sort of broad strokes here, someone's just
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  Speaker 1: sitting alone at a social gathering, our analysis of how
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  Speaker 1: they feel is likely to change if we also observe
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  Speaker 1: some other features about what's going on for them. Let's say,
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  Speaker 1: for example, they're in a wheelchair, that might change how
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: we think about what they're doing sitting all by themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe if they're very very young, a very young child
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  Speaker 1: sitting by themselves is maybe not bored. They might just
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  Speaker 1: not be able to do anything else. Or they're very
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: very old. Very old and very young people have a
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: lot in common. If they appear to be starting to
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  Speaker 1: doze off, that might be boredom. It might just be
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: that they're really tired. If they have headphones in, then
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: likely they're just distracted by whatever other thing is going on.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're on a phone call. If they're smiling, then
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  Speaker 1: we might not think that they're bored. If they're gazing
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: out at something beautiful, we might not think that they're
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  Speaker 1: bored or whatever. Distressed if they're swaying as if they're intoxicated.
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  Speaker 1: The whole point here is enlisting all these is just
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  Speaker 1: to consider that like the fact that they're sitting there
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  Speaker 1: alone is going to be and what we interpret from
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: that is going to be colored by a variety of
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: other features that we also observe about them that are
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: going to be relevant, and how we start to try
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  Speaker 1: and predict and guess what's going on in their situation,
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  Speaker 1: in context, how they might be feeling relative to ourselves,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: relative to those around them.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So, at the end of the day, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there's no way that you could possibly truly know how
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: somebody's feeling, just like we'll never know how you're feeling
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: when these ads play. Okay, so we've been talking about
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: kind of observing somebody and trying to guess how they're
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: feeling despite the fact that we do not actually know
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: what they're feeling. And so you know, we've talked about
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the person who was bored to the party, or we
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: assume they're bored to the party based on those contextual features.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: But when we start describing this, we use terms like
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: projecting to describe our attribution of emotions to actions or
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: state of somebody else. We are essentially saying that we
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: recognize one's actions as belonging to a class of behaviors
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: that we recognize from our own personal histories, and that
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: we therefore predict that their behavior will continue in a
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: manner that corresponds with a class to behaviors belonging to
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: that emotion. That again is welcome back to the jargony
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: world of why we do what we do sometimes.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, so saying that same thing much less jargonly, which
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: is not a word, but I'm saying it because it
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: makes sense.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Jargonly is a good word.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when someone is screaming and swearing and red in
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the face, let's say in the United States, and we'll
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: get to that point later, we see those behaviors and
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: we might call them anger, right, and expect that that
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: person is feeling angry, and therefore we expect that they
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: are going to continue to do things we think of
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: as angry. Other behaviors and actions that are also in
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: the broad spectrum of actions that we look at and
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: say those are angry things. Sure, And I also think
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I was sort of thinking about this that that idea
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: of we have this class of things that we're familiar with.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that they're accurate, but it's familiar
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: at least to each one of us individually. And this
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: is embodied in the experience. I've certainly heard many people
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: communicate to me that they have when they hear screaming
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: in like very heavy meta a music, and they think
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  Speaker 1: of this as being very angry. Because the class of
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: behaviors that involve screaming are in the category for them
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: of anger. Even though if you if you listen to
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the lyrics, if you can hear, if you can hear them,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I think it's harder for people who aren't used to it.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: They might be singing about love or faith or silliness
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: being you know, being, they might be silly, or they
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: might be singing about joy and sometimes anger. But yeah,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: but the experience of just hearing the screaming, I think
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are immediately like, Wow, what are
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: they so angry about? And I'm like, I no longer
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: have that, and maybe I never did, but I don't
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: have that in the category of things in that context
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: of anger, but I think a lot of people do.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: And so we can sort of see why as we
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: apply this filter of understanding empathy and they they're you're
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: sort of essentially saying, I observe these behaviors they're doing
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: for me, that means this, And so I'm assuming then
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that that's what they think as well. And that's sort
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: of what projecting, I guess, is a way to think
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: of what projecting is and applying that to this example
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that I've had many times in my life because I
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: like having metal music and people hearing that and thinking like, oh,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: they're so they're so angry. Why why do you like?
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Are you angry because you listen to this angry music?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: I like this song is about he just got a
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: new toy truck and he's really excited about huh.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's like a panopticon. As an example of that,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: like everything that he writes is about like Appalachian magic
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: and like the beauty of the woods and mountains and nature.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Like every one of his songs is like just writing
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: about beautiful landscapes, and everybody's like, what are you so
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: mad about?
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Nice?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: So great. So basically what we're saying is labeling someone's
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: behavior as empathetic is likely to occur when that person
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is labeling other people's behavior very readily and apparently accurately
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: as far as we can tell. So we're just basically saying, oh,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that person is doing these things, they must be feeling
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: this way or having this experience.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so if we observe in ourselves or someone else,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: they're labeling of other's emotions, and it seems like they're
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: they have a high level of accuracy and fluency with that.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: They were like, you're an empathetic person because you can
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: label those emotions. You might even sort of mirror those
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: emotions and take them on yourself. We see, like you
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: start to do what that person's doing, and we say,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: you're a very empathetic person.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: What they're feeling, we don't know, and they want to
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: tell us. You know, they will often share what they're feeling,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: and that's fine, that's great, and can be very useful,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and just saying that, like, that's how we tend to
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: call someone's being empathetic when we see them labeling other
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: emotions or even acting in a similar way as someone
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: else's emotions. Although as we'll get to later, it's almost
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: invariably adverse emotions, sad, right, crushing, tragic emotions. It seems
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: like it's rarely anything positive and rarely anything like just
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: outside of that at all. Like I don't know that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: I saw in any of the sources that I found
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: of some like seeing someone else be afraid in themselves
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: feeling fear right or and definitely do not see anyone
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: talking about seeing someone who's demonstrating joy in them feeling
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: joy right. It seems like it's the high the sort
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: of the m paths of the world we'll get to
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: later tends to be largely focused on the sort of
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: aversives anyway, Right, let's dig in more on this whole
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: thing about our reading body language to interpret emotions.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, so facial expressions, aren't they always fun? So many
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: psychic one textbooks share hopeful messages of unity and human
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: biology by pointing to evidence that our emotional reactions are
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: similar across cultures, with the smile being a particularly favored
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: emotional display. Right, so you see people smiling and you go, oh,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: that's a good thing. We all smile.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much every psych one to one textbook I've
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: ever seen points to the smile and says a smile
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: means the same thing everywhere in the world. We'll get
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: to that now. Crying and disgusted, those are pretty universal
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: pretty much anytime you see humans, and actually, in many
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: instances many non humans do those things. We're fairly clear
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: on what the context is for that organism. It may
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: not be as attractive to discuss in terms of the
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: universality as it relates to humans, mostly because crime and
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: disgusted are scene is very reactionary and almost like at
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the point of being involuntary. Right, Like we just kind
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: of do it, But a smile is this more sort
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: of deliberate emotional response, and what luck that we all
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: do it and then we all do it the same too,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: except when we don't.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah so. Famous example of this is that while in
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Western or American American culture, a smile of scene is friendly,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: kind and viewed as more attractive, trustworthy, and happy, but
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: in Japanese culture, stoicism is more valued and smile is
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: often associated with pain and shame, and so we cannot
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: necessary really assume that we are accurate when reading other
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: people's body language, especially if we're coming from a very
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: specific cultural lens. When we're interpreting these.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah and observing body language from someone who grew
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: up in a completely different culture, we might make some
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: assumptions that are not accurate based on our own history.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And it makes sense, like we we use heuristics because
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: they're efficient, and so if we are familiar with and
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: have seen and are are usually accurate when observing some
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: body language and we see it in someone else, even
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: if they're from a different culture, we might assume something
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: about what that person's feeling and just not be accurate.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And that's okay, Like it just that is what it is, right,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Like we don't know what we don't know sometimes all
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the time actually, because that's what not knowing, not knowing.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Means, that's what is. Yeah, well once we know we
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: do not not know anymore.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: We might know that we don't know, and so it's
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: like one step closer to knowing anyway. Point being that
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: like that is that is just a feature of that
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: what we do. I think it's use to understand that
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes we're wrong. I think that's the biggest takeaway.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Now, nevertheless, there has been a clear effort to understand empathy,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: this ability to sort of read and interpret emotions as
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: scientifically as possible by classifying and categorizing as objective a
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: measure as possible of an emotion. Like when we look
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: at emotion, what's the most objective way that we could
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: then categorize that emotion? What can we look at that's
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: concrete and we can apply this filter to say that's
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that emotion, and then we evaluate then responses to that
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: emotion in terms of whether people label it in a
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: way that is consistent. So basically saying this body language,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: this facial expression is an emotion, and people who can
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: correctly label that can correctly identify that emotion.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Sure so, Paul Ekman and we've talked about k ben
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: On here before, found a significant amount of consistency in
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: how raaders judged images of emotional expression and developed the
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: what's called a facial action coding system or FACTS. Not
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: fact from the bear right, which would be more fun
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and joyful, but the facial action coding system or facts FACS.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Nothing but the facts.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: When I was in elementary school, I was in a
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Christmas play and like a Christmas musical, and we had
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: to do a rap called about faxing our Christmas list
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: to Santa Claus. And it was a facts of facts
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: is what we were supposed to do in that song.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And I'll never forget how embarrassing that was.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: That is an interesting premise.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: It was the nineties, you know, yeah, you.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Know, it's enduring technology. We should definitely make a musical
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: about facts.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Machine fact machines. Uh huh, yep.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: That did a really really good even in the nineties.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: They were like on their way out the door, I know, Okay.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: From this system, this facial action coding system or FACTS,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: participants are shown images of people's faces in which the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: person in the image is supposed to be conveying a
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: relatively unambiguous specific emotion. So basically, it's just a picture
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: of their face. It's got some emotion. It's supposed to
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: be clear what that emotion is. The viewer of said image,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the person who's looking at the picture, then labels the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: emotion they believe as being portrayed by the person in
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the picture, and then their answer is dichotomously scored as
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: either correct meaning it matches the label assigned to that picture,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: or is incorrect, meaning it does not match the label
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: assigned to that picture.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Right, So it's just tapping. It's a massive sample program,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: isn't that beautiful? Yeah?
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's just say what this emotion is. There's
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: like eight possible correct answers. If it's not one of
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: those eighth, then you're wrong.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Now. There have been many useful and pragmatic
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: applications of Eckman's research with facial expression as expressive analysis,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: but we are going to go into them here just yet,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: although we should in the future.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Right Mike, Yes, Mike won O patron supporters who who
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: has talked about his experience with the facial coding system
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: so I'd really like to talk more about that, so
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: we'll get back in touch. We started making some movement
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: on that a long time ago anyway. So this is
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Ekman's thing, the system here, and all of that, but
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: we do need to sort of continue to wear our
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: skeptical hats in our scientific cats here. Again, this is
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: not to be overly critical of Ekman's facial system. I
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: think there has been some interesting stuff that's come out
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: of that that's worth following up on. But in terms
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: of understanding exactly how empathy works, we are going to
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: continue to sort of demystify it. I guess unpacking I
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: don't know. We're going to talking about it some more,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: and an important way that hopefully elucidates the caveats to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: such approaches, because there's a few issues with just the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: system of if you can label a picture, then you
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: have empathy. Right, let's start with that, And I don't
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: think that that was Ekman's premise, right, but people have
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: attempted to use his system in that way. So let's
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: start with the fact that if the somewhat obvious issue
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: of that you're just labeling a picture, that grading someone's
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: label of a facial expression as being correct or incorrect
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: based on a series of pictures. And I said before
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: there was eight possible answers. What I meant is like,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: there's eight possible emotions. There's only one correct answer for
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: each picture. Just make sure that's clear.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Sure, all right?
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Now? The thing is like, again, you're basically looking at
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: a picture and you say what the emotion is that
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: you observe in that picture, and then you're basically told
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: whether your's observation is correct or incorrect. But that I
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: think has some implications to it. There are several emotions
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: that have similar facial arrangements, that's one. And so we
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: might look at a particular image that has a lot
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of similar features. Let's say sadness, discuss and anger might
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: have a lot of overlap, and like a downturned mouth,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: right sure, and kind of furrowed eyebrows could all be
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: part of that similarly, and like there are features of
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: them that are kind of unique, but there are some overlap.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And so what part that someone pulls out as being
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: the most importance to them as they interpret it is
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: just what'sever important to them, Like that's the history they're
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: bringing to their observation of that picture. And everyone is
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: going to bring their own history every single time they
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: observe anybody making any particular facial expression, which means you
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: are just as correct as anyone else, except when you
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: know that person better, which we'll talk about probably the
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: next episode. But anyway, that's one issue. Also, it's not
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: particularly representative of how emotions may be displayed in an actual, dynamic,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: ongoing scenario and which facial expressions might change rapidly in
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: an evolving context. Rarely do we hold an expression on
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: our face for a long period of time so someone
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: can gaze at it, and then while they're gazing at it,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: eventually arrive at a label for that emotion. Most of
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the time, when we're engaging with people, their emotions are
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: flying through a spectrum of variety and what they're showing
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: at a pretty rapid pace. Right, So that's another issue.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: And then finally, the way this was put together and
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: for a Western audience, this makes perfect sense, But the
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: images use Western faces exhibiting Western expressions of the emotions
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that we have labeled and categorized as important and belonging
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: to those those set of expressions. This means that that
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: might not be very applicable to other cultures, as we
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: talked about already with the example of smiling, and Eckman
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: himself noted that in some applications, fifty percent of people
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: in different cultures specifically labeled the sad emotion picture as
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: angry instead, and they did so very consistently, So that
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: facial expression might be it might be better represented as
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: anger in that culture, or maybe anger and sadness just
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: look more similar to one another in that culture. Then
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: that's totally okay.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Right, So, whether you're labeling a face as sad or
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: angry or feeling those emotions, we're gonna play ads regardless,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: and you may feel all of those things really rapidly.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: The one thing you probably did not feel was joy,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: and I understand.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So, in addition to what Abraham's mentioned earlier, the context
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: of the situation and our familiarity with the people can
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: be critically important. More information that we have about a situation,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the more likely we're going to make a better guest
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: or better kind of description of whatever that is. So
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: the koolishav effect in cinema is an effect demonstrated by
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Russian filmmaker Lev Kulashaw in the nineteen tens and twenties,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: in which the film portrays a shot of an actor
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: with a somewhat ambiguous or even neutral expression, and then
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: a shot of something happening in context, and then the
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: actor's face again unchanged, in which the intersperse shot of
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: the context alters the audience's interpretation of the expression of
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: the actor. And this is super, super fascinating. We may
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: even do an entire episode on it, and it may
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: not even be So that's also a fun thing to
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: think about too.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: It's not like all makes sense to follow that. Like
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: the idea is basically, what is cut between the shots
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: of someone's face affects how you interpret that person's expression.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, Like basically like you might have
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: an interpretation when you see that person's face, then there's
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: a contact shot, and then when you go back to
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: that face, it changes how you've interpreted that initial shot exactly.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that that is something that was talked about
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in I think there have been multiple papers that have
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: looked at this and have been talked about in which
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: they're sort of say that you can establish an interpretation
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: of those things and how a film is edited. So
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: as an example of that, like let's imagine a person
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: on screen that has sort of an unclear facial emotion,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: let's say, even expressionless. Right, Then the camera cuts to
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: an image of a terrifying monster starting to make its
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: way toward the camera. So we see a person's face,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: then we see a monster approaching the camera. Then it
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: cuts back to that first person again, who has the
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: same mix expression on their face. The audience could potentially
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: interpret that actor is displaying a subtle yet powerful example
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: of being frozen in fear. And really, the editor did
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: all the work here, right, But like, that's the whole
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: idea of the Koulishov effect, is the idea that, like,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the context matters in how we interpret the depiction of
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: what's going on in the screen, in the sequence in
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: which things are sort of edited together or observed together.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Right, So this applies to our interpretation of other people's emotions,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: for which we not only look at their facial expression
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: and body language, but we also do so with an
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: understanding of their situation or the context in which they're
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: in that they're displaying that emotion. So it's not just
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: facial expressions and body language alone. It is so much
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: more than that.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it paints a really comprehensive picture of what's going on.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Researchers have attempted a more robust analysis of empathy by
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: trying to so the reason that we're talking about all
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of this is just trying to get a handle on
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: how we even interpret emotions, like what tools are we using,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: because we do use body language and facial expression, we
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: do use context, we do use our history of learning.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: And if we look at those pictures as this criticism
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: that our ability to label those pictures is not a
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: very representative of what our skill is because we don't
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: have this dynamic, ongoing interaction like we're not watching a video.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: And so researchers sort of got together and thought, Okay,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: how could we do this in a way that more
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: accurately represents what happens in real social scenarios. And so
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: they did this more robust analysis where they did the
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: empathic accuracy paradigm is sort of the research set up here,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: and they sort of thought, and this makes perfect sense
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: to me. Let's have two people actually talk to one
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: another and then report on their interpretation of someone else's
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings. Rather than those still images. They two
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: random participants together and they speak to one another. This
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: is a recorded conversation, and so later the participants watch
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: that recording and they're asked to interpret the emotions and
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: thoughts of their conversational partner at various points of the recording.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: So they might pause it and say, Okay, what were
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: they thinking there? And you can see the advantage here
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: that like we have someone who is that they actually
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: have an ongoing evolution of emotions showing up. You would
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: get to have the history that's brought to it, you
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: get context, you're directly observing it, you get to see
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: it change over time. You'd think then this would be
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: a much more robust way of getting a clear analysis of,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: or like a clearer label of someone else's emotions.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Right, So in this arrangement, the accuracy is scored by
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: matching the participant's interpretation of their partner against their partner's
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: own description of their thoughts and feelings in that situation,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: and accuracy is achieved when the participant states a similar
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: interpretation of their partner's emotion as their partner says about
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: their own emotions. So basically, accuracy just says like, as
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: we're interpreting this, we go, oh, one person labeled that
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: labeled the emotion. Did they get the emotion right as
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: described by the person actually experiencing the emotion exactly?
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: All right? Now, Shane, don't look ahead, Okay, I want
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: to do a test. Shane is looking at the ceiling.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I could.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: How accurate would this need to be? Like, let's give
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: it a percentage. How accurate would this need to be?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: To feel like we've got a good handle on how
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: well people can label each other's emotions.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I would say eighty percent or above, right, Like, I
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: feel like eighty percent or above would be a fair
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like that would be consistent enough to be useful. Okay,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: that's yeah, I would say eighty percent or above.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, keep looking up. Okay, what if it was fifty
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: percent accurate? Would that be enough to say that that
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: was a pretty good rate of understanding of someone's emotion?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, no no no no, no no no,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: that's a coin flip.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh sure, I mean it's it's not quite a
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, like there's more than two emotions. But
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: but yeah, you're right, like fifty percent is generally like
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: you could get it wrong, get it right? All right? Yeah,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: so probably not well, that's good then, because what their
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: accuracy actually was was about twenty two percent.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: You can stop looking up, okay, I can stop looking
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: up now. Okay. So it wasn't accurate at.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: All, No, no, it was. It was far below any
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: reasonable threshold of how much we would predict that someone
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: would be able to guess about someone's emotion when they're
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: right there talking to that person, experiencing their e motion firsthand.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: They were about twenty two percent accurate.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's not good, all right, So does this mean
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: that we're bad at empathy? I guess maybe as a
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: question I would have I would say, like, nah, know
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: where they're right there, or that maybe this measure of
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: empathy is a component of empathy but not sufficient to
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: capture it, or is it completely wrong. Interestingly, the accuracy
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: improves dramatically if the two people talking are friends, so
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: like if the two people in the context actually know
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: each other, so if they have a history of familiarity
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: with the person, their accuracy does increase all the way
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: to fifty percent, implying that in part, arelity to interpret
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: other people's emotional states is at the very least aided
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: by personal history with that person. So we're not generally
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: pretty accurate. We tend to be more accurate if we
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: know the person.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like some people very accurate label in the pictures,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: very inaccurate at labeling in an actual situation when they're
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: talking to someone. I mean, those pictures are static, they
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: don't move, and they're meant to be pretty emblematic of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the emotions that are portrayed in those those pictures, like
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: those are the sort of the archetypes, if you will.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: And then in these dynamic conversations, you should have the
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: advantage of like ongoing history and participation with that person,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: so you even get context, and it's still pretty bad.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: And then you get to like, I actually know this person, well,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: we have history together, I know how they talk, I
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: know how they communicate. And then we get all the
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: way up to really bad still but better but still
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: really bad at it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's funny to think, like you know
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: that you might be really in tune with like your
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: partner or like your friend, like you you may pay
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: attention to subtleties a little bit more. And even then
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: our study show like that we're about fifty percent.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I didn't look to see how this shook out with
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: like married couples or people who had been in like
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: an actual romantic relationship for a long period of time.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: I would guess that it would be higher most of
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: So anyway, all this means that our emotional expressions and
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: our ability to label emotional expressions and others is calibrated
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: across a wide range of complex factors that starts all
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: the way at the level of our genetic makeup, our language,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: and our culture, our learning history are the context of
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: the interaction and our interpersonal history with those around us.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: And that is a lot of layers to try and
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: distill down into one single test, such as just facial
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: expressions or even a single conversation.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Right, So, all of this and to say really nothing
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: of what emotions even are, or how they work, or
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: what the pragmatic utility and importance of empathy in terms
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: of how it affects subsequent actions that people may take.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: We like, you know, at this point time, we're like,
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: do we even can we even measure this? Can we like?
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: What does this look like? What are we doing? And
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: we just kind of land on I don't.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, And I mean, like empathy is an expansion
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: on the idea of emotions generally speaking, and I don't
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: think that we have super thoroughly tackled emotions in the past,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: and so like we're sort of making some assumptions that
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: that is well understood enough for us to have a
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: conversation about empathy, and we'll probably need to take that
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: on at some point. But then again, like, there's this
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: really pragmatic aspect of this that is really important, which
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: is just because you, let's say, you could correctly label
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: this pictures, you could correctly label things in a conversation.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: You're really good at it when you know the person.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: What does that mean in terms of your overall behavior?
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: What are you likely to do if you're really good
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: at those sorts of things? Right? Does it matter? Like
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: what if you feel nothing about what other people feel,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: but you choose to do good things and help other
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: people anyway? Again, does it matter? Does it matter how
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: you feel?
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll unpack some more of that as
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: this conversation continues to evolve, So we'll probably pause this
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: conversation for now. We'll pick it up next time with
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: part two, where we'll talk about emotion as it develops
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and young children. We'll talk about some implications of empathy
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: and to the extent to which it matters and whatnot.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think just I wanted to end this
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: on the discussion and sort of the cliffhanger thought experimentee
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: conversations start. I don't know the idea that even if
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: we understand this, does it matter? Why does it matter?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: How does it matter? And I'm not saying that it doesn't.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking that question because I think the answer
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: is no. I'm asking because I think we actually want
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: to consider the implications here. We want to try and
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: work through critically what aspects of this are important, why
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: and how, maybe a lot of them, maybe none of them,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: maybe most of them. I don't know. We'll figure it out. Well,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: we'll try and figure it out. We're not going to
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: probably solve it in these two episodes, but we'll at least,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I think, right we'll unpack some features of this that
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: we think are important enough to have landed on a
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: position where we say this is probably about the right
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: way we think we need to be going on this.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: At least in my hope is that. And I mean
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: mostly because I think that conversation has already happened. I
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: think most people have already landed on why and how
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: in the extent to which this is important and what
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: parts are more or less important than others. But we'll
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: definitely spend some more time on that next time in
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: subsequent conversations. But yeah, anything else you have to add
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: on this part, Shane.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I think you did a really good job. At the end,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: they're like saying that, you know, we want to unpack
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: this to understand this more. But I think it is
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: important to understand. Like part of the reason that we're
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: studying or like having conversations about emotions in general, or
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: why we're doing research about emotions and want to understand
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: them is because it is such an integral part of
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: the human experience in general, right, Like we experience these
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: and giving names the things gives us some power in
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: understanding like how we can go about using those things,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: or like giving us a better understanding of the universe
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: around us. Right, And so emotions are something that every
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: human experience is, or at least for the most part,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: right experiences and experiences a wide range and variety of them.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: So I think it's just fascinating stuff to study more
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: than anything.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And as it relates to our ability to interpret
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: one another's emotions. This empathy piece feeds into the fact
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: that we are such a social species. We've talked about
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: this ad nauseum on this podcast that if you look
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: around you, you're probably surrounded by the outcome of a
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: quad operative society where people work together and are not
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: lone wolves. Where we drive on our side of the road,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: following certain rules, obey some traffic laws, but we also
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: are able to build buildings and we exchange money for
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: food and like, it's not this all out chaotic sort
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: of dog eat dog world. The reason where this as
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: successful as we are as a species is because we cooperate,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: and part of our cooperation seems to be entailed in
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: our ability to understand other people's sort of emotional states.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: And that's the sort of empathy piece. So that's I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: think digging into a little bit of next time, but
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: I do want to leave most of the time when
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: we do it too parter. Fewer people listen to the
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: second part than the first part. And for those of
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: you who are interested, part of where this started had
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: to do with hyper empathy or extreme empaths, and so
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: that will be part of the conversation next time is
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: digging into that. So if that was something you were
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: speed looking for, that that's where this is intended to
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: go in the second part. And I think it offers
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: a very not a very it offers a unique twist
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: on the current conversation of empathy that we've been having.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Right. Absolutely, I'm looking forward to getting into this more too,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: because I feel like, living in a beach town, I
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of people that call themselves empaths,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: and so I want to understand them a little bit more.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Really, I would have not thought that.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Bunch of hippie granola. You know, I'm just kidding. If
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: you if you identify somebody who's like a like an
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: extreme EmPATH, like, it is something I can hear a lot,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot of like folks here that have
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: like a very they identify as very spiritual, and that
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: is something that comes up a lot in that world.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: A lot is like extreme empathy and spirituality and some
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: of that, like, at least in my conversations with folks.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm interested to get in like this a little
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: bit more.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is not something I would have mostly expected
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: in Florida, but that's okay.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Sure, that's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean empathy in
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Florida to on short supply. But I think in general,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: like a lot of this, like the the spirituality part
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: I think comes up a lot, and like smaller in
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: the smaller beach town area is like because of where
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: it's a little bit more hippie and like small towny.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you'll find in sort of pockets. Yeah yeah.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Here I live near I live near Cassadega. Cassadega is
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: like like historically a witch town, so like there is
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: like there is like magic getting hysteric thinking here too,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: a little bit you know.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Got you got you. Yeah. Florida I think generally I
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: would view, I understand as a state trying to legislate
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: empathy out of existence.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: They've been working on it.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Anywhere you go, you're going to find pockets
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: of people in sort of a just a different countercultural
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: orientation to where it is they're living, right, municipality.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's what we have to say about Florida if
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: you would like to talk to us about there's a lot.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I mostly throw Florida under the bus because I've lived
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: there and you currently live there. But there's many states
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: and governments and politicians that I think are should really
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: be in the crosshairs. An equal measure, Greg Abbott, I
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: think is the opposite of an extreme endpath. If someone
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: feels a heightened emotion that reflects other people's emotions, his
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: is just a heightened vitriol for all living things.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: So uh huh yep.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Anyway, if you would like to talk to us about
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: what we've said so far on emotions, or even talk
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: to us about what you'd like to hear us say
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: about emotions, you can certainly email us at info at
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: wwdwwdpodcast dot com. I won't promise we will get those
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: emails before we've had a chance to have a conversation
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: about it, but we would love to hear from you anyway,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: And if you send us a nice, good, juicy one,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: we might even just read it on in an episode
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: for other people to hear. But we like hearing from
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you no matter what, so you can reach us directly.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media, and if
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: you like what you heard today and you would like
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: to support us, you can do so financially by picking
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: up some ur or heading over to Patreon, where you
• 47:02
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• 47:04
  Speaker 1: care peeper man over there, you can access to all
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: kinds of bonus content and extra goodies and behind the
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: scenes stuff, and need also help us continue to make
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: this podcast. Means we can pay justin to make it
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: sound like a podcast, we can pay for a domain,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: the host, the podcast, and it's you know, it's it's
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: something would like to do. So if you like to help,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you can do it that way. But as I said,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: you can also just do a one time thing and
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: pick up some merch and if you don't want to
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: do so financially, then you can. There's other ways to
• 47:31
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• 47:33
  Speaker 1: thank the people who've already joined us on Patreon. That's Mike,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Michelle. Thank you patrons.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, y'all are so wonderful. We love you.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: And if you're not already a patron hearing this, I'll
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: read your name too if you join us over there.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: But what I was going to say is other ways
• 47:52
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• 47:55
  Speaker 1: do help us out leave us a rating. If you're
• 47:57
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• 48:00
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• 48:02
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• 48:03
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• 48:13
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• 48:15
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• 48:17
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• 48:19
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• 48:22
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• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you can support us lots of ways. Go out and
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• 48:30
  Speaker 1: we do. Stickers, they're out there. I think that's it.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Anything else that I forgot or that you'd like to add,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Oh there is something I forgot. I'm not even give
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: you a chance to tell me because I know what
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: it is, which is that. The other thing that makes
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: this podcast happen is my wonderful team of people writing.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: In fact, checking from Shane and I help with that too,
• 48:47
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• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the guy in the chair who does the sound making
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: gooding thing is Justin who is massively necessary to making
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: us sound like two people who are actually having a
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: conversation and not to people who are talking away from
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: one another in different parts of the country, which is
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: how it might otherwise sound.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: And entirely different time zones.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Entirely different time zones. Yeah, so thank you very much
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: for our team of people. Now, before we close out,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: this is I know I've been reading the credits and
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: maybe you've been skipping through, going ah whatever, I don't care,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: and hopefully you will even hear this part because we're
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: not done. After we do the credits here, we'd like
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: to talk about something that we are recommending. This is
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: just a thing that we like to do is share
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: some of our joys. Maybe you'll share those joys too,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: maybe not, but here are some recommendations, recommendations.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: So my recommendation is just the just the absurdity of
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: the world and the timeline that we live in right
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: now and how great it is cool.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: I like it so far.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, at at the time it's recording, the Paris
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Olympics are going on. They recently had the opening ceremonies
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: two days ago, and that's always a spectacle. Well this
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: year they really have caused a quite a ruckus because
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: one everybody thinks they did like a drag version of
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: the Last Supper. That's not what happened at all. So
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: it's all about like the Greek god Dionysus and all that.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: So that's a good idea.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Though, yeah, it probably a last but people would be
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: so pleased.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Please do a drag version of the Last Supper somebody.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: But also I get yeah, that it was the Dionysus thing,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: and that's cool. Good with that.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: The reason I am thinking about the Olympics right now
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: is because a metal band called Gojira opened, played and
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: performed in the opening ceremonies. Now, normally I'm just not
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: going to be like, oh, yeah, a band. It was
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: like a kind of like an underground or like an alternative,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: like you know, type of band. I would not say
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: anything about that. But their performance was particularly awesome because
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: they they play Have you seen the video at all?
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: No? I did not actually even know about this until
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: you mentioned it.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Dude. So they played a song that was about the
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: beheading of Marie Antoinette on a building called the Conciergerie.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: The Conciergerie is the former prison and residence of French
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: kings during the French Revolution.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: So they built platforms for each of the band members
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: to play on the side of this giant prison, and
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: each of them have their own platform and they're playing,
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: and they're playing this really heavy song and underneath them
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: they're just shooting fire. There's so much fire. It's just
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: so cool. And at the end of the song they
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: fire like blood red streamers out of every window from
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: the prison.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Like it is so absurd, and it's so great that
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: that happened on a global platform. That was the first
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: time like that had to have been like people just
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: being like what is this. They're a band that I
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: don't really follow or listen to, but I just thought
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: it was like very cool to be like, this is
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: a thing to happen at at the Olympics. So anyway,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: that's my recommendation to just go to watch their performance
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: because it's pretty rad. Like it it's so cool to watch.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised they didn't put some like guillotines on stage
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: with them or something.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Somebody was probably like, Okay, there's a line here, all.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Right, so this is a video you're recommending a video
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: of Gojiro performing at the Olympics. I'm definitely definitely checking
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: this out as it were.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so much cooler than I just described it.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: It looks so ridiculous.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Now, this sounds like this is a recommendation for Shane
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: to recommend things to me, but this is for everybody. Yeah,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: and my recommendation is also for everybody. And actually I'm
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: sort of recommending a Shane recommendation from a while back
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: which has happened before, which is the TV show The Bear,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: specifically season three, because at the time of this recording,
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: season three has been out for just a little while,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: a few weeks maybe, or maybe it's been longer. I
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: don't know. Time is weird, but anyway, I will say,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: if you've been watching The Bear, this is probably not
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: the strongest season they've ever had in terms of plot.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I would say there was a lot of cool visuals
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: and a little of advancement of the story. But I'll
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: also say that like the worst season of The Bear
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: is still like one of the best seasons of television ever.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: So right, it's still really good. It's still like lots
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: of great things happen in it. So it just wasn't
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: my favorite, but I think many people it was their favorite.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I think it was a good season. So like, if
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: you're if you're interested in in The Bear and you
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: haven't seen season three yet, I do recommend it, and
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: maybe it'll even be your favorite. I would say it's
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: very cinematically interesting. I think they just did not not
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: A lot of the plot evolved very quickly, and that's okay.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I think they're planning. I think they're setting up some
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: things for subsequent seasons to really take place. But nevertheless,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: still still really good. As I said, you'd hardly go
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: wrong with that TV show. So Season three of The.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Bear pretty incredible. Yeah, I mean, like you said, there's
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: like three maybe four plot points yeah that like are
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: very quick and very like they don't progress until like
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: the last two episodes. But it's like it's so good.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, a lot of yeah, a lot of build
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: up to those major developments and then a lot of
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: visual stuff that's cool. This is streaming I think exclusively
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: on Hulu. I think this is a Hulu original thing
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: something like that. Yes, so that's that's where you will
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: find it. But okay, I think that is all that
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: I have to say about Goodjira or TV shows, and
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: for right now, that is what we have to say
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: about empathy. But we'll be back with part two next week.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: But is there anything that I forgot or anything you'd
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: like to add before we close it out? Shane, Nope,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: that's all I got. All right, Thank you all so
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: much for listening. We will see you next week. This
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: is Abraham and it's Shane. We're out. So yeah, you've
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: been listening to Why We Do what We Do.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: hope you have an awesome day