Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Unearthed Gallery, Marcel

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Interview with Unearthed Gallery, Marcel · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Matcha Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan. This is Michael Ho Zhongjun.
0:04
Hello. Who also goes by Sam and we're
0:07
the cofounders of Sanko Matcha product.
0:09
Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
0:12
Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.
0:15
And today we have Marcel from Unearth Gallery trying our
0:19
podcast. Hello, Marcel.
0:20
Hello. Thanks so much for coming on.
0:22
Yeah. Thank you for long time coming.
0:24
I think we first met like 2 months ago, now three months.
0:27
Yeah, it was also a coincidence that I found your podcast and
0:30
and despite the fact that I didn't know you personally, like
0:35
clicked very quickly in a sense of like the approach and the
0:38
topics you're dealing with. So I was really intrigued by the
0:42
idea of getting in contact with you guys.
0:44
Awesome. And thanks.
0:45
Yeah, thanks for reaching out. It's it's really cool to see
0:48
that like we had a lot of similar interests both on the
0:50
tea side but also on the ceramic side, which was which was cool.
0:54
Could you give a little background for everyone, like
0:56
sort of your tea journey, how you got into tea, tea wear and
0:59
sort of everything that you're working on?
1:01
Yeah, I mean, my tea journey started like 15 years ago now, I
1:04
think, when I was just finding a random Chinese tea tin and
1:09
actually my mom's cupboard. And it was like a Taiping ho kui
1:13
like, and I didn't know that it was anything special.
1:16
I was just drinking it during my, my bachelor's thesis, like
1:21
writing my bachelor's thesis. And then after finishing the
1:24
tin, I was so hooked on this flavour and like how amazing
1:28
this tea was that I I went to a very deep rabbit hole.
1:32
Interesting. Yeah, I think it was like a gift
1:35
from a friend of ours who was in the solar industry and like the
1:41
PV industry and went to China regularly and he got it, got it
1:44
as a gift. You know, China, you always get
1:47
tea as a gift. So it's ended up with me, which
1:51
was a good. Yeah, Hoqui is one of those
1:54
pressed, very long, flat green tea that has a very sweet and
1:59
umami taste. It's, it's very unique, like
2:02
flavour profile and also visually it's like very
2:05
interesting. And that time it was almost
2:07
impossible to find anything in Germany or Europe online, even
2:11
any of that kind of teas. And I was first surprised by the
2:15
prices and then also by what the offerings of these very
2:19
specialized stores were. That's what was maybe 1 online
2:22
shop in Germany who offered it. Yeah, that that was that kept me
2:27
starting. And at the same time a very good
2:29
friend of mine who was more into like the like West Coast hippie
2:34
culture. And son, he read some books and
2:37
they were drinking matcha and tea there and and like, you
2:39
know, like kind of Alan Watts circle and stuff.
2:43
And there was also like already kind of a bit of a tea culture,
2:46
Western tea culture and, and in the US, which then we kind of
2:50
like came together and instead of beer, we're drinking tea
2:53
every weekend. That's cool.
2:58
How so you're based in Munich. How have you seen that the the
3:02
tea scene matcha scene evolve? And since you you're the kind of
3:06
first inspiration I. Think it like it really with my
3:11
personal journey, it developed like like very in a parallel way
3:17
in a sense of that like 15 years ago, it was a very niche thing.
3:22
Like it's still very niche, but it, it was more and more easy to
3:27
buy certain teas. It started with Japanese green
3:31
teas like Sanchez and there were like new importers starting and
3:35
supplying these kind of kind of mom and pop tea shops.
3:39
And there were more and more specialized online vendors
3:41
coming up. And it really evolved a lot in
3:44
the last like 10-15 years, I would say.
3:48
Nowadays there's even vendors in Germany who are specialized only
3:51
in, in Yencha from Wichan or others are specialized only in
3:57
Taiwanese teas and so on. So yeah, so there's a wide
4:00
spectrum of specialized vendors. And since a few years, there's
4:04
also these tea festivals. So I think since five years.
4:08
Wow. Since maybe 2018, nineteen, like
4:12
the whole tea scene really kicked off with with these tea
4:16
festivals. Yeah, so I think that's similar
4:19
to the USI guess. Yeah, there's more and more
4:21
festivals also in Canada. Yeah, although I think the
4:24
European ones are a little bit earlier, like the Prague Tea
4:28
Festival's the really big one, right?
4:30
Yeah, Prague is. They have two now.
4:33
They used to always have one which was had a bit of more like
4:36
like alternative vibe. And now they have a new one
4:39
which is very, I would say like speciality vendor focused and
4:44
international. And then there was the Berlin
4:46
Tea Festival, which is like more the kind of the biggest very
4:51
specific tea festival which is running since 2018, I think.
4:55
And yeah, that the first edition, I missed it because I
4:58
was on my tea sabbatical that time where I went to visit a lot
5:02
of tea growing areas and also pottery places and 2019 and I
5:08
joined the festival was really nice just as a visitor.
5:11
You went to Japan on your tea sabbatical.
5:14
No, Japan was already early. I went for 3-4 weeks and and
5:18
then in the tea sabbatical was I was like having a trip from
5:22
India, southern India to Shanghai by Rd. and that was
5:27
like not really all Rd. but I went to Taiwan in between and
5:30
was 2 * 4 weeks in China. It was like kind of like a bit
5:34
the Bodhidama trail. Where'd you start in southern
5:37
India? Were you in like Chennai or more
5:39
in like Goa side? I started in Kerala.
5:43
Actually I went to Mumbai and then I visited some friends
5:46
because I have some. I did some exchange semester in
5:50
southern India in 2011 or 10. And then I visited some France
5:55
and I went to a pottery studio in southern India during the
5:58
winter because I was like, I'm going to spend the winter in
6:00
southern India and then and worked on my own pottery.
6:04
And then from January onwards I was travelling N until May.
6:08
So it was like 5 months of travelling from southern India
6:11
to Shanghai and went through, yeah, like obviously Darjeeling,
6:16
Assam, Myanmar and Thailand, Laos, China.
6:21
OK. And it went in like through
6:23
Kunming and then went to. Exactly.
6:27
OK then from Kunming to Guangdong and and there I missed
6:34
the missed the train so I had to take a flight because I was at
6:37
the the wrong train station in Kunming.
6:40
I didn't realise. No.
6:42
Because it was my first train ever in China.
6:45
It's its own system. Yeah, because they have these
6:48
endings. And then if you don't, if you
6:49
book through an English app, you bit.
6:51
I got a bit confused. Yeah.
6:52
And then then I went to Hong Kong and from there to Taiwan
6:56
for another month. So it's like kind of like I had
7:00
a dual, dual entry visa for China and then I maximized each
7:04
entry. OK, nice.
7:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then you came out back
7:09
in, yeah. Yeah.
7:10
So basically I went a few days to Zhao Zhou and to Wudongshan,
7:16
and then I went to Hong Kong. And that you leave China
7:19
basically in Hong Kong. I spent a few days in Hong Kong
7:21
and I took a flight to Taipei from there and came back to
7:26
Fujian. So it's kind of like a maximized
7:30
trip. I want to see as much as
7:32
possible because that time I was working in consulting and I was
7:36
not sure if I want to continue. So I took a sabbatical and did
7:39
this whole like pottery and tea trip.
7:42
And it was also really like the kick off.
7:45
Well, the the foundation of my current business.
7:48
Also because that time I had my first connections with Potter's
7:51
and you know, a lot of people also westerners living in in
7:56
China and making tea or selling tea online and stuff like that.
8:00
So this this like my circle of contacts grew a lot in this
8:03
time. Super cool.
8:06
Very interesting. Coming from all the way in
8:08
Kerala and ending up in Fujian, it's that's crazy.
8:14
That's cool. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to also
8:16
see this whole like kind of like the origin area of tea, like the
8:21
Eastern Himalayas, you know, like the Yunnan border area, but
8:25
also and see what happens in Laos and like maybe Thailand and
8:29
Myanmar. Myanmar was a bit difficult
8:31
obviously, but even there I could like I did a short hike
8:35
and I like guided hike and I saw some old tea trees.
8:39
Cool. Yeah, by the did you?
8:41
Do that in northern Laos too. I heard there's a bunch of tea
8:44
production up there. Yeah, Northern Laos I went to,
8:47
but it's super, super difficult to get there.
8:49
Like I think our bus broke down twice in this like 8 hour
8:53
journey from I think it's this is tea cool.
8:57
I forgot the name now, but basically it's really remote.
8:59
Fangsali province, I think the prefecture Fangsali province and
9:03
they have a few villages which have really old trees.
9:06
But the processing is a bit weird.
9:08
They make it like almost like a green tea, like a green poor.
9:12
So it doesn't age very well. Well I heard, I heard quality is
9:16
getting better. I have a friend, a friend of my
9:19
girlfriend lived in Laos for like 8 years doing a lot of NGO
9:24
work. And one of his projects was in
9:27
northern Laos setting up a tea cooperative to raise tea quality
9:31
and kind of borrow a lot of poor processing methodologies.
9:34
And they're trying to promote it and do some eco tourism and kind
9:38
of boost the quality of the the region.
9:41
I was just in Iwu in Vietnam, which is very close to the
9:44
Dallas border. There are a lot of smugglers of
9:47
bringing Laotian tea leaves into Iwu and gets processed as Yunnan
9:52
poor nowadays. It's very interesting.
9:55
It's kind of like how people import the Kagoshima tea into
9:58
Uji and makes Uji. Just like just on a motorbike in
10:05
last border. I think that that this is like
10:07
the problem, you know, like it, it is not really enabling the
10:10
farmers there to produce their own tea, but rather like, you
10:15
know, that the EU merchants and tea makers can sell that tea
10:18
basically almost the same price as their own tea.
10:20
But yeah, I think Laos is a very poor country.
10:24
They could really profit from a bit more like individual TC in
10:27
there and selling it abroad to Europe and US maybe because to
10:31
China it probably doesn't work on that way.
10:33
You know, you have to go through evil.
10:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think the Chinese would
10:39
be that interested in the Laotian core production as much
10:43
as the West would be. Because then it's like New World
10:46
poor. Like it's, you know, new.
10:49
Actually, you get into the same problem with matcha.
10:51
Can you even call it poor if it doesn't come from Yunnan?
10:55
It's like basically the same forest processed in the same
10:58
way. There are the same people
11:00
actually, a lot of those are Yao ethically and Bulan people
11:04
because like the border is quite recent compared to, you know,
11:08
the history of those people living there.
11:10
So they used to be just, you know, 11 big region of the same
11:14
people doing the same thing. Exactly.
11:16
I think they have much more in common with each other than they
11:19
have common with the Han Chinese, kind of all those
11:22
mountain tribes or like minorities.
11:25
They have different cultures, but they have a certain way how
11:28
they live. And it doesn't matter if you're
11:30
in, I don't know, maybe upper Assam even, or in north of
11:34
Myanmar or northeastern Myanmar or in China.
11:37
It is very similar. You know, they all have a
11:40
certain way of living. It's.
11:41
Interesting. I guess pivoting back into
11:43
matcha, you recently did a bunch of like specialty matcha
11:47
workshops and with people in Germany.
11:49
Would love to learn a little bit more about how you structured
11:52
that and then sort of what the response was from from people
11:55
there. Were they, and I'm also kind of
11:57
curious if there were tea people that are the general tea people
12:00
that wanted to learn more about matcha or they like came in
12:03
really fresh with with not as much contact.
12:06
I mean, first of all, the motivation was kind of to offer
12:09
it to everyone to really like offer a workshop to everyone
12:13
who's interested in Matcha as a kind of as a product and beyond
12:18
only the matcha latte craze and wants to discover and it's
12:23
really open for everyone. But because I have a existing
12:26
customer base, which also this is my, this is my past workshops
12:31
and I have one workshop that's called Journey of Tea, which I'm
12:34
offering every month. And it's kind of a yeah,
12:36
introduction into let's say, speciality tea from historical
12:42
perspective. And I introduced the, let's say
12:44
5 to 6 different types of tea in the tasting also.
12:49
And a lot of people came from that tasting.
12:51
And I also some new, new customers who, yeah, came
12:56
specifically for the matcha and they, they want to learn about
12:59
matcha. They kind of like probably drink
13:01
a lot of matcha lata and they want to learn how to drink it at
13:04
home or how to drink maybe pure matcha and what to care about if
13:09
you make decisions as a consumer.
13:11
I think that's the kind of two, two groups which came together
13:14
there. And yeah, the motivation behind
13:17
the workshop is really to also offer like education to to a
13:23
wide range of people because, yeah, everybody's talking about
13:26
the green powdered green tea, but a lot of people don't even
13:29
know what they're drinking. It's a bit like, you know, cocoa
13:32
pulver, which you buy in the supermarket.
13:34
But actually Matcha has a very specialized product.
13:36
So I think, you know, it's comes from the teas for me.
13:39
So it's not comparable. And I think there is nothing
13:41
like that yet here in Munich or Germany, kind of like a workshop
13:45
which really offers the like kind of holistic approach to
13:51
what matcha can be kind of. And I think that the, yeah, I
13:55
think the two pillars of any kind of like sustainable growth
14:00
for me, doesn't matter if it's speciality tea or speciality
14:04
matcha is always like kind of the education part and the
14:08
transparency part. I think like I even remembered
14:12
I, I gave a talk in this 2019 Berlin Tea Festival, like for B
14:16
to B audience where it talked about numbers of the tea market.
14:21
And I was like telling them we don't know where we are
14:23
currently in the market. You know, maybe there was a bit
14:25
hype and now everybody opens up online shops, but they would all
14:29
close down in two years, which was the fact as some of them did
14:32
close down. And how can we sustainably grow
14:35
as this industry together? I think it's always important.
14:38
First of all, you have to educate your customers and then
14:40
you have to be transparent about your products as much as
14:43
possible. Yeah, this workshop obviously is
14:45
about the education part and enabling the customers then to
14:49
distinguish a transparent and non transparent matcha brand or
14:54
something like that. In that sense.
14:55
That's the idea also by that. So what was the the event like?
15:00
Like if we participated, like, what would we expect?
15:03
Like how did you structure the experience?
15:06
So it is at the end, it is kind of a guided tasting with a, a
15:10
short practical part at the end. It is around 2 to 2 1/2 hours
15:15
and I basically separated in in 4 sections which each have one
15:21
tasting in it. And I start at the real basics.
15:25
So what is matcha? And we talk about the kind of
15:30
like rough definition of matcha, where it comes from the, the
15:33
mocha from, from Song dynasty and talk a bit about, yeah, what
15:40
distinguishes matcha from like other basic Japanese green teas
15:43
so that people have an understanding just very roughly
15:46
for the beginning. And then we already start to try
15:48
our first tea, which is, which is a tea which I currently am
15:52
selling. It's like a blend by Maruku
15:54
Korea man, specifically for the European Union.
15:56
And it's just like kind of for me, like this kind of benchmark
16:00
idea of what matcha used to be and like a good quality matcha
16:04
used to be until now and was consumed also widely like in
16:08
the, in the tea ceremony sphere, but also just for matcha lovers.
16:13
I would say it was very accessible.
16:15
And I think it's good for them to try like a blend in the
16:17
beginning to see, OK, what is a solid, well blended matcha.
16:20
But from there we take a kind of a turn and look at this line up
16:23
of Maruku Koyama and which is like, there's an interesting
16:27
chart, which I also show in the workshop.
16:28
It's like a line of the different qualities.
16:31
So they have a basic line up which is not the specific versus
16:35
anchor line up or something, just the basic line up.
16:37
And it's basically this kind of matrix of like softness and
16:42
bitterness and boldness and lightness.
16:44
And I think. And then there are these
16:46
different matcha cans lined up in one single line basically.
16:50
And you can see how. Two by two classic, 2 by 2.
16:53
Exactly. It's A1 dimensional line in this
16:55
two-dimensional space. It shows you how like 1
16:59
dimensional approaches kind of obviously the ingredients are
17:05
multidimensional because they have so many different like lots
17:08
they blend into those teas. But at the end what they want to
17:11
get is this like very simple, like, OK, this tea costs double
17:15
as much as this and so on. So if you see the prices, you
17:18
know, at some point it's, it's like steps of like maybe ¥800.
17:22
At some point it just double s the price, double s and double s
17:25
and double s. So it's, it's, I think it's not,
17:28
it's not bad. It's just their approach.
17:29
I think it's for a first guess, it's very easy, but we want to
17:33
go beyond that and understand a bit more what this product
17:36
actually is. And that's where I come in with
17:37
this speciality term because the workshop is called speciality
17:41
Matcha workshop. A bit like your opinion in the
17:43
sense of your podcast, Like how do you term or use a term to
17:46
show that you want to go beyond the, the kind of very classical
17:50
blends and want to show a bit more the specificness, the
17:55
specific characteristics of different types of matchas.
17:59
And that's what we do that in the second step, define what is
18:06
what should be on a label of a matcha.
18:08
And I like from my perspective, in the sense of like we start
18:12
with the growing regions, with the cultivars, with the shading
18:17
technique and how long it's shaded, then maybe even
18:21
fertilization methods. And then in the sense of is it
18:24
stone ground or not? And all these differences where
18:27
you really say, OK, these are different dimensions and each
18:30
matcha can be kind of classified a bit in these dimensions.
18:32
And it gives us a first good guess to estimate how this
18:35
product could taste. That's kind of like the core
18:39
part of the workshop to learn a bit about those.
18:42
It's kind of like a table you would put you would wish to have
18:45
on every website which sells speciality matcha, you know like
18:48
these kind of categories which you want to have filled out
18:51
every time you see a product on a website that.
18:54
'D be a dream. I have a quick question, What is
19:00
the difference in taste between the EU compliant Maruq blends
19:05
and the non EU like the ones that you would buy in Japan?
19:09
What's your experience? Is it like pretty close?
19:12
Because I imagine it has to be much more compliant from our
19:15
pesticide residue requirement. But like, how does that
19:18
translate in the cup? I think they're very comparable.
19:22
I think they might have a bit less umami and like maybe hint
19:29
more bitterness. Like it's not like I think from
19:36
the quality, the subjective quality, I feel like they're
19:40
very similar, but maybe some of the specific traits are a bit
19:44
different. Like that's why I say I think
19:45
the strong umami, it's very hard to do with kind of like more
19:49
organic fertilizer and stuff. And then also like very, very,
19:54
very low bitterness. It's also very difficult without
19:57
the use of pesticides. And these are not pesticide free
20:01
teas, but they are blended in a way that they.
20:03
Have very, very low pesticides because yeah, they're just
20:06
specific pesticides. I guess they're, they're not
20:09
even registered in the UA European Union for use.
20:13
And that's why the, the the minimal residue level is very,
20:17
very low. The allowed one in the European
20:19
Union. So basically if they use
20:20
something in Japan and it's allowed, it might be like
20:24
blacklisted in Europe because nobody uses it.
20:26
It's a specific tea. I think in Taiwan it's the same.
20:29
Interesting. So it's not even on their radar
20:31
because it doesn't even matter from an agricultural perspective
20:34
in the EU. Yeah, exactly.
20:35
Because I think they don't they don't even apply it to any crop
20:38
here. So and probably they don't
20:41
really look into the research about the pesticide.
20:44
That's my understanding. But I'm also starting to learn
20:47
in this topic only because it's it's the question how much
20:51
difference is between EU standard and let's say JS
20:55
organic? How much is this gap?
20:58
How many teas fall into this gap?
21:00
Yeah, that would be an interesting research.
21:04
Probably pretty big like from what I understand, the EU could
21:07
do a lot more to better understand and then regulate
21:11
tea, especially coming from other countries.
21:14
That's I think Ian from you know me was telling us that, but if
21:18
if there was a bit more research done like better tea could enter
21:22
the EU and that they just take a little too hard of a line with
21:26
with our at least my understanding.
21:28
Yeah, I think that the the level is basically so low that that
21:32
it's like just if it's just registered basically in the
21:35
test, then it's almost not compliant.
21:38
You were telling us something very interesting about the Jas
21:41
certification and how you can look at like some different
21:44
matcha brands or matcha labels and if the serial number is
21:48
still on, you can actually trace it back all the way.
21:51
It was really interesting to learn on our last call.
21:54
I had never heard that before, but was nobody a good tip?
21:59
Yeah. I mean, it depends if it's
22:00
registered on the farmer or on the company.
22:03
I guess it depends on who labels the tea, but the person who
22:07
labels and has a certificate has to put the number on and I think
22:11
the last person in the chain basically puts the JS number on
22:14
and depending on who packaged it and so on, it could be the
22:17
farmer or the producer or it could be the wholesaler or
22:21
someone. It's like much intelligence.
22:25
Some some verified provenance that goes back.
22:29
But at the end, when I try to pin down certain matchas which I
22:34
tasted somewhere, it is often not so difficult to find out who
22:40
the producer could be. Because the amount of producers,
22:43
especially the amount of people who then grind the matcha is
22:47
very limited. Because as you realise, I think
22:50
a lot of farmers, they don't grind themselves and they don't
22:53
have any capacity to grind their own matcha.
22:56
So like, I think for example, in Yaman, it's really like the
23:01
farmers are not really unable to produce their own matcha.
23:03
It's all going to the big players, and I mean the big
23:06
players doing a good job. But still, it could be very
23:09
interesting, for example, when you introduce Euro or mill in
23:11
the future and I can go to Japan and find a really small farmer
23:14
who has some really interesting Tansha.
23:17
I mean if he has the ability to make Tansha then I can buy it
23:21
from him and grind a tea in Munich.
23:23
That's our dream too. It's the to shorten the, to
23:27
close the infrastructure gap to because there's a lot of
23:30
consolidation. I mean, there's a lot of power
23:33
in the way that like the, the tea actually moves throughout
23:37
the supply chain and they're so concentrated at certain points.
23:41
It'd be interesting to see if we can shake things up a little
23:45
bit. Yeah, I guess it's also about
23:47
how risk averse those farmers are.
23:49
If they are a bit more, they're a bit more bold, they would just
23:53
kind of like like pay someone to grind it.
23:59
And I think that's possible. I guess they have the network,
24:01
but then they have the risk of like selling it themselves.
24:04
So the question is like, you know, if you don't sell it
24:06
yourself, why would you grind it yourself?
24:09
It is kind of chicken leg problem also financially I guess
24:15
for them. And that's when the clock starts
24:17
from a quality perspective. Yeah, it's kind of similar
24:22
situation in poor to they outsource the pressing process
24:25
to kind of a consolidated factory, similar situation
24:29
because it's very expensive to acquire the machineries and the
24:33
labour and the government doesn't necessarily issue the
24:37
production certificate anymore to individual oppressors.
24:40
So kind of similar situation in Japan too.
24:44
It's getting very expensive to acquire lands and build new
24:48
factories and buy machineries from Shizuoka.
24:51
Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering about the whole tensha
24:54
factories, like, because there's a lot of sorting going on.
24:57
I mean, in China as well when you have these like funkian
25:00
sorting things going on, you know, like which was done by
25:03
hand before, but nowadays it doesn't make sense anymore.
25:07
I guess for for certain qualities, even like better,
25:11
poorer will be sorted with machine because it's just
25:13
cheaper. And then also you have to go
25:17
probably to someone and let it get it sorted.
25:20
But then I think in, in Japan also those tension factors, I
25:25
don't know if they're like some of them communal or only the big
25:28
players have the tension factories And like all this
25:31
like, you know, the sorting of the kind of, yeah, like the
25:35
stems and the veins. Like after the step where they
25:38
cut, cut the leaves and, and, and and pieces and then sort out
25:42
the, the veins. Think they they have this like
25:45
there are these very advanced machines which can this array of
25:48
cameras and they can like use pressure air to air.
25:52
Check out those. Exactly.
25:54
And this thing, I mean, doesn't make sense to buy it as a farmer
25:57
if you use it like twice a year. And it's, it's also all those,
26:03
all those things are bottlenecks.
26:04
And I'm coming back to the workshop.
26:06
I'm now working also because I have to use the, the, the
26:10
matches, which I'm offering right now also in the workshop.
26:13
I'm now working with one farmer in Nishio.
26:18
And he luckily has his own milling facilities, but they're
26:22
also probably limited. So the question is like, how
26:25
much can I get if I want to get more?
26:27
And he does his single cultivar production.
26:30
So he has 4 cultivars he picks by hand or he people pick by
26:34
hand and they're shaded quite long.
26:37
And there is a like single cultivar Saimidori Suihikati
26:44
Okui Kadi, I think. And then also interestingly,
26:48
Binifuki single cultivar matcha, which is like very unique thing.
26:52
So he he produces this like anti Poland or anti energy tea as a
26:57
matcha. And it's interesting because you
26:59
know, like you have one farmer in one region who does basically
27:03
like probably the fields are just next to each other and he
27:06
does like the same process. The harvesting date obviously
27:09
arise due to the cultivar and it wouldn't be possible to pick all
27:13
this by hand. But that's like really
27:15
interesting to to taste the side by side and see the differences
27:18
which only the cultivar gives. And that's like kind of tasting
27:21
for the second part and see, like, here are your criterias.
27:24
And this is an example to see and taste it in a cup.
27:27
Everything is the same, but one one variable changed and it's
27:31
very different matcha. I think it's like cultivar
27:34
driven. That set of tasting experiences
27:38
is either really hard or really expensive to put together.
27:42
That's that's a cool from a workshop perspective because you
27:45
have a large enough group, it's OK like, but even just acquiring
27:48
these kind of back-to-back samples quite difficult.
27:51
So it's that's super cool. Yeah.
27:52
So basically I'm also offering now two of his.
27:57
Yeah, hand picked matches and they're also reasonably priced
28:00
because it's not such a famous growing area and I think they're
28:04
pretty good. The value, I'm just like, no, no
28:06
advertisement. I'm just like personally I want
28:08
to only sell stuff which I would also consume myself for that
28:12
price point. So that's my approach with
28:14
everything. And that's yeah, just nice.
28:16
I got this specifically also for the workshop because it's really
28:19
nice to have this option to try those teas really next to each
28:23
other. It's, it's difficult because as
28:25
you know, like the experience of drinking matcha or even the
28:28
experience of drinking other tea, especially like teas which
28:30
have like kind of a long finish or some kind of change happening
28:35
like a wee gun or something like that.
28:37
Especially you. It's very hard to say, oh, this
28:40
comes from this and that comes from that tea because maybe the
28:43
sweetness which stays in your mouth one minute after drinking.
28:46
Yeah. Which one was it?
28:47
Now you know. Problem with the sequential
28:49
tasting. But what's interesting is you
28:51
can really taste at the Saimidori.
28:53
It's like basically has no bitterness at all and is more
28:58
light flavour and also more bit more in the vegetable side, but
29:03
has a nice creaminess. And Tsui Hikari is like so much
29:08
bolder, a bit more astringent, but it also has more mommy and a
29:11
more complex flavor, I would say overall.
29:15
And they both have kind of a nice finish.
29:18
So so in that sense, it's nice for them to try those both.
29:21
And also like, you know, it's the first experience of trying
29:23
two different cultivars next to each other for most of them.
29:26
Interesting. So in terms of, you know,
29:30
people's preference, what are your observations like?
29:33
Do people generally prefer umaminas in the tea or how?
29:38
Like do they like the bitterness or do they not like the
29:40
bitterness at all? I mean, this is something I'm
29:42
working on in the this workshop because the first two sessions
29:46
I, I made them also with feedback form like everybody had
29:49
to give feedback. That's why it was like for a
29:51
better ice than it will be in the future.
29:53
That's like collected some data and interestingly, people then
29:59
like, I feel like that from all the matches, people then think
30:02
that the blend still is very balanced and they really like
30:04
the blend, the Maruku Kriyama blend.
30:08
But I think the preferences are very different.
30:11
And I think because some people gave me feedback, oh, they want
30:15
to try even more matcha and like they, they couldn't get enough.
30:18
And then some other people are like, oh, this was like very
30:21
strongly prepared in the sense of the ratios I'm using and so
30:27
on. Maybe for beginners, it would be
30:29
better to make it lighter. So it's it's really like at the
30:33
end where you at with your personal preference and also
30:37
your journey. Interesting.
30:40
Interesting. Do these people have experience
30:43
with other beverages? Like are they like coffee
30:46
drinkers or wine drinkers at all?
30:48
I think most of them they they, they drink tea regularly.
30:51
I think that like some of most of them had some experience in
30:55
tea and some of them in coffee, but I, I, I didn't specifically
31:01
ask about wine. That's good.
31:03
Good question actually, which I should put in the the
31:05
questionnaire now to see what other.
31:09
Yeah. Like speciality products.
31:11
They're like consuming. It's a bit like sake, for
31:14
example, the first time people, someone tries sake and they're
31:16
used to wine, they cannot really deal with those flavors that
31:19
they're often a bit too bold. And even sake as a Japanese
31:23
product has umami and like sometimes it's just like kind of
31:28
like cheesiness, which normally wine or like whatever French
31:32
white wine doesn't really have to that extent.
31:35
It's it's just very extreme. Yeah, it's a totally different
31:39
flavor universe. I, I have a hard time actually
31:42
as you kind of sip them both in the same way, you know, the
31:45
alcohol level's about the same and like getting out of the wine
31:48
mindset is actually I find quite difficult.
31:52
Some of the aged sake are I would say I draw more comparison
31:56
between them and like Sherry or Madera.
31:59
Yeah, actually I have a sake fridge here.
32:01
It's now becoming my matcha fridge.
32:05
Cool. But it's cool because it's, it's
32:08
a ventilated like very dry fridge.
32:11
So it's very practical for matcha as well.
32:12
And obviously it's only used for sake because I have a
32:15
collaboration with a friend of mine.
32:16
He is, he used to live in in Japan.
32:19
And he has actually a website which is specialized on aged
32:21
sake. And yeah, he has really
32:25
interesting also. There's also, I think some cycle
32:30
which is then aged in a cherry barrel for another year or two.
32:34
Obviously then it's not pure anymore, but also interesting
32:38
and there's this like very distinctive Curry note to a lot
32:42
of those age socket or like kind of really strong Curry note
32:46
which is interesting for many people and I tried the first
32:49
time. Yeah, I can definitely see that.
32:51
Some odorousal oxidation like. It's very nice.
32:56
Yeah, I mean, this is like, but I think for the matcha, it's
32:58
really like for some people, like when I describe to people,
33:02
for example, when they drink your kuru like in this, you
33:06
know, if you do it like a bit of the gong fucha style way, you
33:09
brew it in the very beginning with a very, very crazy ratio.
33:12
So basically you just cover the leaves and then you get these
33:16
few drops out and then they enter your tongue, your mouth,
33:20
and you get this like feeling of, oh, now it's going to get
33:23
really bitter and you already like prepare for this bitterness
33:26
and astringency. But then somehow there's just a
33:29
bit bit of this astringency and everything becomes like kind of
33:32
a mellow sweetness and there's like umami flavor.
33:36
I think it's like that's like the, for me, the what's so nice
33:41
about the guru and the sense that for matcha, obviously it's
33:45
always a bit stronger and bolder.
33:48
And you have to like embrace or you have to like, if you expect
33:52
now there's like super strong bitterness.
33:54
Like it's just too strong for you, even if the bitterness
33:56
never really comes because you know you're not used to this
33:59
like intensity right in your mouth.
34:02
Yeah, it's so intense. Yeah, but this is like the
34:05
ending of the second part, like, you know, like we, we talked
34:09
really about the details of the processing differences you you
34:12
can have. Obviously I have to like speed
34:13
up the part of it because you know, there's these like 5-6
34:17
dimensions, the dimensions and you can't really spend more than
34:20
like a few minutes on each. But I think it's good for the
34:24
beginning because just like a CHEAT SHEET you can take and
34:26
see, OK, how do they actually disclose what what this match?
34:30
Is it actually stone milled or not then?
34:33
Yeah. I mean, nowadays I, I go on
34:36
websites and I see weird things. It's written like Tana shaded
34:39
and then there's a picture of like the how's it called?
34:44
I always forgot the name. Not Tana shaded.
34:47
That's something with Ki think I forgot the name now.
34:49
So the normal shading, which they do.
34:51
Yeah, exactly. And you see that they, they put
34:56
a picture in their products, like it's a product picture.
35:00
You see the the, the bushes being shaded, but they write
35:03
tenner shading. And it's like these things
35:06
happen now very often. It's a bit sad because, you
35:09
know, Yeah. And it's also the reason I
35:14
initially started to think about this matcha more and more
35:18
because I think about a year ago I was already seeing the current
35:22
matcha trend kicking off. And I'm drinking matcha since
35:27
ten years or 12 years, but not as much as I do now.
35:32
And I was like, you know, sometimes with a few friends, I
35:35
was ordering one parcel from a Roku Kerman from from OG
35:39
directly when they they didn't have a webshop.
35:41
You just write them e-mail and then you you order like 20 tins
35:45
and then you pay the import tax and so on.
35:49
It's not a problem if you share it and then you have your yearly
35:52
stock of matcha. You know, like I drinking maybe
35:54
four or five cans of matcha a year.
35:57
That's enough for me. You know, like I drink it mostly
35:59
in the summer. Fun fact, I used to have also an
36:01
online shop around 10 years ago with three other friends and was
36:06
just a site, very small online shop.
36:08
And we asked Morocco career man if we can sell their tea or
36:11
their matcha that time, but they declined back then.
36:15
Wow, OK. Because we were just a very
36:17
small random online shop. But now because I'm doing a lot
36:21
of exhibitions with Unearthed which have to do with Channel U
36:25
and like, you know, like chawans often have chawans on display or
36:30
even chaire, I think they were more interested in in working
36:33
with me now. So I'm like could become
36:35
official reseller. Nice.
36:37
Went to, I was in Sofia, Bulgaria, I think it was last
36:41
summer and I was looking at the matcha scene on Google Maps and
36:45
there was a place that specialized in matcha and they
36:48
only sold Maruq product. They were a wholesaler.
36:51
It was a very interesting experience in the place that I
36:54
would have never guessed telling us this guy was telling us all
36:57
about the poetic names. He was like, sure.
36:59
Like he's he's Bulgarian, fell into this matcha thing and was
37:03
wholesaling and I thought, wow, Maruq has quite the reach.
37:07
That's interesting. Maybe they've opened up a little
37:10
bit since 10 years ago too. Yeah, I mean they also, you
37:15
know, like all the US and KES students all over the world,
37:19
they I think they many of them order for the school like kind
37:23
of a parcel every two months or something that's far.
37:26
That's like what I guess I mean, and I think in Munich it's it's
37:30
like that they have this tea house here and our English
37:34
garden are like Central Park basically.
37:36
And they they meet up there regularly at practice and they
37:41
always use Kuamayan matcha. Well, Despite that.
37:43
Question. Despite our issue with the
37:46
poetic names of these traditional houses, one of my
37:49
favorite matchas is from Madoku Kuamayan.
37:52
It's tenju. It's a very, very nice has this
37:56
really interesting intense like fresh olive oil like spiciness
38:02
to it and that flavor just disappeared the second day we
38:06
opened that can. Honestly, I also realized that
38:12
like a similar flavour, like especially when smelling a can,
38:16
which I just opened because basically my first batch arrived
38:19
like 5-6 weeks ago and I think they literally milled it a week
38:24
before. And they, they have I think good
38:26
shipping rates with DHL and I think like arrived within four
38:30
days in Munich, you know? Nice.
38:32
Like. This matcha was literally like 7
38:35
days packed and milled and think for the European Union to have
38:38
specific milling lines which only do that because of
38:42
contamination and stuff. And then basically you, you have
38:45
to order it and then it comes to you so fresh.
38:48
And I open two of the cans and to test it and write some notes
38:52
and review, review them. And then I realized, wow, it's
38:55
such an intense smell. Kind of like, yeah, I don't know
38:59
what it is. It's like this kind of like
39:01
maybe it's polyphenols or something like which are really
39:03
like in the leaf when it's freshly ground and it's has this
39:10
like olive oil flavor or smell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:13
I love that. Pre degraded state because I
39:16
think it just vanishes. It was pretty like weird how and
39:20
we kept it in the fridge. Like literally 24 hours later
39:24
gone it was. Crazy.
39:26
It's a different tea. Yeah, it was a different tea.
39:29
It's a bit of a shame because it was like, what was it, 6?
39:34
70 bucks. 670 bucks. Yeah, it's probably something
39:37
like yeah ¥8000 or ¥9000 or something like that.
39:43
Yeah, crazy. Sad.
39:45
Yeah, let's see. I mean, I have my, my, my fridge
39:49
still have some stock from Maruku Karman.
39:52
And it's probably easier to buy matcha here than in OG or
39:56
something, because in OG there's this limit now one one can per
40:00
person. But I mean, once I'm done, I
40:03
don't know, like I will for sure try to visit them when I'm in
40:06
Uji, but like I don't know my next batch when I when I can get
40:11
it, yeah. And about the tea from Nishio in
40:14
IG prefecture people talk a lot about like generalizing like the
40:18
taste of uji matcha or yame matcha.
40:22
Like Uji is famous for umami and green and verdant yame more
40:27
nutty, creamy. Roasting.
40:30
Automatically expressive, roasty.
40:32
Toasty What? What is it like?
40:34
How would you generalize the the thing you've had from ITI?
40:37
Think in general because what's interesting is they do really
40:40
long shading. So besides those hand picked
40:43
qualities, I also have now one quality of a Okumidori matcha,
40:48
which is machine harvested, but it's still 40 days shaded.
40:53
And yeah, and it comes with really, and it's harvested
40:57
really, really late because Okumidori is a very late
40:59
cultivar. You imagine 40 days of shading.
41:03
In order to achieve those 40 days, you have to start shading
41:06
very early, I think. And then you like prolong the
41:08
entire process. So I think it's harvested only
41:12
by end of May, but it's still the first harvest.
41:15
So it's interesting, you know, in some sense like it, it sure
41:19
has an impact and on the the flavour and everything if you
41:22
shade for a very, very long time.
41:24
And they also do, I think mostly Tanner shading in Nishio.
41:28
It's also interesting they don't use Hanzo, but they use Tanner
41:32
shading, and Tanner shading has the advantage.
41:33
Of. Exactly.
41:36
I think especially if you shade so long, you cannot even do it
41:39
with like directly on the Bush because the Bush would overheat.
41:43
And then I think it it doesn't maybe it only works for 20 days
41:47
or something, but not for 40. And this Okumidori matcha, it's
41:51
like the strongest and it's also quality, which I say it's like
41:54
for daily use and for lattice even.
41:57
And we also starting to collaborate with a few coffee
42:00
shops here in Munich with this matcha because it like I can
42:03
offer it at a reasonable price also for them if they want to
42:06
offer something a bit more special.
42:08
And it also has the option then to be served as a Usucha or
42:12
maybe as a Americano much Americano because most of the
42:17
qualities currently in the sociality coffee scene, kind of
42:22
like the matcha's they serve, they're not really suitable for
42:26
anything like that in my opinion, unfortunately.
42:29
But this is kind of my bottom approach, like kind of like the
42:32
the workshop is more kind of like, oh, educating and trying
42:35
to show people are interested what's like matcha can be and
42:40
what how unique matcha's high and matcha can be.
42:43
But also on the on the other level to offer this other
42:45
matcha. And I think that this matcha,
42:49
because Ocmidori is very strong as we have is very late.
42:52
It is bold and has like this umami and also like astringency
42:57
and so on. But it's not super unique.
43:00
I would say it's a very balanced strong matcha, but it's not it
43:04
doesn't have any extreme floral notes or something.
43:07
And I think in general, maybe initial teas have less umami for
43:11
sure, I feel, And I think it's hard to compare.
43:15
I would have to like drink them side by side.
43:18
But maybe it's first from some perspective, they're a bit more
43:20
boring. But I think sometimes that's
43:22
exactly what you want, you know, in the sense of the high end
43:27
matcha. Maybe it's boring.
43:28
Wouldn't expect that, you know, with 40 days of shading you
43:31
still would not achieve very high umaminess.
43:34
Like is it because of the fertilizer?
43:36
Like do they how do they fertilize?
43:38
So this is special about this format.
43:40
It's completely pesticide free and organic fertilizers.
43:45
It's not organic as it is, but it's a very kind of low impact
43:49
farming. And that's why I think it is
43:52
that the umami. I think my assumption is always
43:55
a lot of the umami comes from a certain type of fertilizer.
43:58
You know, if it's like fish bone, ground up fish bones or
44:03
some other like fertilizers. If you use organic fertilizer,
44:08
which you make yourself, I think it's it's very hard to achieve
44:10
this really, really strong mami. It's funny you say that because
44:13
Sam and I were walking around Uji just randomly and we smelled
44:18
what we were pretty sure was fertilizer and it just smelled
44:21
like. Fish smells like a fish market.
44:25
It was so uncanned, not like a wet market that taste, the
44:32
umaminess in the tea just for the moment was very unappetizing
44:37
because you can feel like, oh wow, this is like literally
44:39
pulling this up from all this fish poop and this flavor is
44:43
getting transmitted into the tea.
44:45
It's a It's a weird moment. Yeah, yeah.
44:50
I think it's also because if, if sometimes there's different
44:52
kinds of umami, like there's more the fishy umami and then
44:55
there's more the mushroomy umami and then maybe more the
44:58
vegetable umami. And I feel like it has a lot to
45:01
do with the fertilizer at the end.
45:03
Like it's really dependent on that.
45:04
And obviously the cultivar has a bit of a change.
45:08
But I think for these real umami bombs, it might not even be only
45:12
the shading. I mean, this is interesting
45:14
questions because you would think, OK, the amino acids,
45:17
they're they're much more amino acids on the shaded T because
45:21
they're not getting converted and, and catechins and so on.
45:24
And then but what type of amino acids you know, like is it
45:27
really only umami or is it something?
45:30
That's interesting. I think there's a like two dozen
45:34
or so common ones that show up. Someone was telling us it was
45:38
around 20, but about 50%. I think of most much as L
45:41
theanine of the amino acid content.
45:44
And then the rest is scattered. But it'd be really interesting
45:46
to see the, I wonder if any farmers are doing that where you
45:50
have the same tea, same process, same everything, just different
45:53
fertilizer. I wonder.
45:55
It's really unclear what's actually driving a lot of this
45:58
flavor profile. Is it just like tons of
46:01
synthetic nitrogen? Is it like obviously it's some
46:04
combination, but like what is driving it more like the
46:07
shading, the cultivar or the fertilizer?
46:10
It's like very unclear, at least to me.
46:12
I mean, I'm also not sure because the yield, I mean it's
46:15
also yields question. If you yield, if you want to
46:17
have the same yield with the shading and you don't want us
46:22
like you, we need that output, then I guess you need some kind
46:25
of synthetic fertilizer because the, the lack of sun is just
46:31
creating some stress on the plants and so on.
46:33
So the question is like almost like how can you actually shade
46:36
so long and so on. I mean, I don't know the, the,
46:41
the there's so many factors involved with this whole match
46:44
up process. It's kind of interesting.
46:46
Yeah. That it's not that
46:47
one-dimensional. There might be some research in
46:50
Japanese just deep buried in some database and libraries,
46:54
probably about that. It is interesting.
46:58
Yeah, I think that the those teas, I think they're really
47:00
good for like, like also when you say you want a very like a
47:03
good matcha, but something affordable, you want to drink
47:05
every day and you also trust, trust the process and say, OK,
47:09
you know, I'm not drinking something which has a lot of
47:11
pesticides, a lot of like chemical fertilizer in it.
47:14
And and obviously I also need to meet the EU standard.
47:17
So with this match, I'm I can can like rest assured.
47:21
But then there are many matchas which I would like to offer, but
47:25
I don't know if I could offer them, you know.
47:27
So let's see, I mean, this trip, the upcoming trip to Japan, now
47:32
I hope that I'll have a few interesting candidates come out
47:35
of it. Do.
47:36
You know the compliance burden for the EU certification because
47:40
like I am at because I know in coffee, just like some small
47:43
coffee producers cannot afford the complexities in the
47:47
financial cost of the compliance proof of compliance.
47:51
For the organic. I think for organic is what I
47:54
mostly heard but for but I don't IEU compliance seem to be like
47:59
Jas is not does not mean it's EU compliant right?
48:04
But I think it would probably be taken as kind of a sure like
48:09
sure thing that everything which Jas should somehow be compliant.
48:14
And I think probably so I think as an importer, you're forced to
48:18
do like checks also regularly do some random checks with your
48:22
imports. And I think it's also what I'm
48:24
going to do now. I think for example, like a
48:26
company like Korea, Mayan is so big.
48:28
They know they're what they're doing.
48:29
If they make a specific plan for the European Union, they have
48:32
the capability to do this. But like smaller farmers, they
48:34
will not do their own testing if they don't have many customers
48:38
in the European Union. So for that I have to then test
48:41
at least every two years some of the batches and then make.
48:44
Sure that it moves to the importer.
48:47
Exactly because I this is also what what I have to do now when
48:50
I import a product, doesn't matter which tea, where it comes
48:53
from, if I imported into the European Union, I have to put my
48:56
labels on it. So I put additionally a label on
49:00
it, which obviously says, yeah, I'm the importer and so on.
49:03
Because basically I'm the person who introduced it into the
49:06
European Union. Yeah, that's my it's kind of my
49:09
responsibility, but I think it's fine, you know, especially if
49:12
you do B to B and sell to other like coffee shops and so on.
49:16
And this is like kind of produced a lot or consumed a
49:18
lot, then I think it makes sense to for sure make sure that it's
49:21
meeting all those requirements. So that's yeah.
49:24
And then in the in the workshop, we're going to try also we have
49:27
one final matcha, which this time was you probably also tried
49:32
something like that before, like Asahi cultivar from Tsuji from
49:38
from Shirakawa this. Nice.
49:40
Yeah, so this I got that luckily not on his own website because
49:44
it's always sold out so quickly. It's almost impossible to get
49:46
anything on this website. And I got to recommend it.
49:49
His matcha like a year ago from a contact of mine in Nagoya, a
49:53
friend of mine, she runs a gallery there, but I never was
49:56
able to contact him directly. So I just had to find some other
49:58
online shops which have some of his stuff.
50:01
So I was lucky to get this for the workshop and it's really
50:04
interesting because it's this tea is almost like like kind of
50:08
like has some kind of egginess to it, like some kind of egg
50:12
yolk custardy flavor, which is really crazy.
50:16
And also I prepare it obviously kind of as an in between usucha
50:21
and kocha. So to get a lot of foam and like
50:26
the intensity Kocha wouldn't make sense in the setting
50:29
because you cannot really, you know, serve it well unless you
50:33
don't care about hygiene and stuff.
50:34
But I guess in order to serve it in two different cups, you need
50:37
to like use a bit more water. But I like to use in a 1 to 15
50:40
or something, 111 gram to 15 mil.
50:44
It's really interesting matcha. What did everyone think?
50:48
How is it received? I think they really liked it,
50:51
but if they compared it at the end in the in this
50:55
questionnaire, I think it's not really standing out, but I think
50:59
it's like has maybe like one or two people rated it like an A A9
51:04
instead of an 8 and the other like, you know, like it's like
51:07
really maniculous, like small that they all like basically all
51:10
the TSA lot. Maybe I should ask for more like
51:14
hard feedback. But I think most of the people
51:16
really like most of the Machos, and I think that even the Muruku
51:20
Kerman blend was similarly rated to to the interesting.
51:27
The preferences were didn't align with price and what the
51:30
Japanese would consider quality for these German consumers.
51:35
Yeah. I mean, I think they really
51:36
liked it, but I think that the the question is always would
51:40
they integrate this into their own matcha drinking at home?
51:46
I'm not sure. I think.
51:47
And basically we enter the workshop, then we have a small
51:50
part where we talk a bit about brewing matcha, also a bit about
51:53
before we drink the Asahi much are we talk a bit about like how
51:59
much the hard much are seen as evolving currently.
52:02
And this is a part which I still want to develop a bit further,
52:05
but it just gives a bit of a yeah, like current status of the
52:09
match are seen and how much it becomes this kind of like
52:13
international beverage and how more and more like smaller
52:17
farmers are also getting acknowledgement.
52:20
And that's why we also try this tea because he's like an example
52:23
for that. And it's also kind of part of my
52:26
mission to rather work with the farmers together directly and
52:31
then disclose as much as possible about them.
52:33
Like, yeah, or directly disclose who the farmer is ideally.
52:37
And that's like the approach I want to drive also for other
52:41
businesses potentially, you know, like if you put a bit of a
52:43
pressure on the market, potentially other people will
52:45
also feel pressure to raise their quality or be more
52:49
transparent. But I'm not sure I'm I'm a small
52:51
player. Well, it's got to start
52:53
somewhere. Like you have enough people
52:55
showing up asking what the cultivar was or where it was
52:58
grown. You know, it put it, I think it
53:00
does put pressure like I don't know how else this will ever
53:03
work if it's not bottom up because I no one at the business
53:08
level or the higher levels of this industry have any incentive
53:12
to do anything but keep it mysterious, protecting their
53:16
suppliers. It's kind of convenient that
53:18
people don't ask a lot of these questions and I think it's it
53:22
all starts at the grassroot level, I think for this type of
53:25
specialty industry to develop. Yeah.
53:27
I mean, in the current, like I, I could compare it a bit to
53:31
we're currently in the Dubai chocolate phase of matcha.
53:35
I don't know, I don't know if you heard about Dubai chocolate,
53:38
but it's just like chocolate filled with pistachios And the
53:41
prices suddenly like from a normal chocolate bar for 2-3
53:45
euros of dollars went up to like 15 to 20.
53:49
And then you read the listed like 5% pistachio inside or
53:52
maybe 8. And pistachio is an expensive
53:54
ingredient. But like, I mean, basic math
53:58
shows you that the markups must be crazy in this industry.
54:03
And I think the same is is applies to much like right now.
54:07
I think they're just, I mean, some qualities for sure, which
54:10
have someone, I don't know who, like either a wholesaler in
54:14
Japan or like mostly retailers in the West, they're marking up
54:17
like, but beyond a normal margin.
54:21
And that's like you can taste it.
54:23
I mean, yeah, you can see it everywhere.
54:26
And some places have better things and other places have not
54:31
so good things. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a
54:32
mixed bag at the end, yeah. Yeah, it's all about experience
54:36
and the correct reference for consumer to to validate.
54:41
So it's a nice that you are offering this opportunity for
54:45
people you know, Munich to really try and learn.
54:49
Yeah, and I mean, every week there's a new match spot opening
54:51
here in town. Wow, wow.
54:54
Floating. Yeah, it's summer is coming, so
54:57
I think it's really, yeah. I would like to make some
55:00
research and go in there and ask the baristas like, oh, what kind
55:04
of matcha is it? Like, you know, ask some basic
55:06
questions and see how far I get. Just like, you know, I'm not
55:10
very good at like mystery shopping, but like could be a
55:14
cool. Yeah, you're like a secret
55:16
customer. Exactly.
55:19
I do that too sometimes. Or maybe you can offer some sort
55:22
of a consulting service to these cafe shops to.
55:26
Exactly, that's that's my my idea also because doing a bit of
55:30
B to BI want to offer those coffee shops which work with me
55:33
also kind of like a workshop format which is more specialized
55:36
on the whole like. Training of the brace.
55:39
Aside and and but still give them the basics, you know, like
55:43
if they know there are these growing regions and we have this
55:47
and not that because of XYZ or because we can yeah, like I mean
55:51
there's different reasons you would need this kind of like
55:54
this background knowledge. And I think it's not like it's
55:57
not easily accessible anywhere, especially not for people who
56:00
just started in a in a coffee shop who just started matcha 2-3
56:05
weeks ago, you know? Yeah.
56:08
It seems like in Germany, Aya is kind of at the top of the
56:12
funnel, like really dominates the game in Austria and Germany
56:15
I've heard. Is that I think, is that what
56:18
you see in in Munich too? I see some Aya, but like I think
56:22
that most of the places have some kind of Kagoshima matcha.
56:27
I think so many of them, I guess those ones who don't really
56:30
disclose where the matcha comes from, probably like some white
56:33
labeled Aya matcha because I think Aya also offers the like
56:37
white labeling custom brand things.
56:41
But I think other ones probably have a more direct approach and
56:44
try to find a supplier. There's a few brands coming up
56:47
which also run their own coffee shops, but it at the end you
56:50
have to see that this is something which is separate to
56:53
the speciality coffee scene, kind of because it's much more
56:56
kind of like punch drinks with a lot of fruit toppings and so on.
57:01
And I think that the other side of it is more the speciality
57:04
coffee shops would offer a pure matcha latte.
57:08
So these these kind of like separate entities, either you're
57:11
specialized or matcha and then you do all kinds of interesting
57:14
things. But maybe because there's more
57:16
sugar involved, the quality of the matcha is not always so
57:19
important. And then you have the other
57:21
squats, which are more speciality coffee shops and they
57:24
they have a more solid quality and average, I would say.
57:27
And they're also not offering all the the toppings because it
57:31
doesn't match their workflow. You know, like it's even hard
57:35
for them to offer much at all. So they use squeeze bottle style
57:39
often. Well, the pre premiered syrup
57:44
things. I mean, it's not it's, it's
57:46
they, they pre prep it just I think that the same day and then
57:51
they cool it. And I am something I want to do
57:56
as a research to see like, you know, do this make some kind of
57:59
like 1 to 10 like liquid and put it really at 4° in the fridge
58:04
for like 4 hours and then test it versus a freshly made one and
58:08
see what's the difference Because I'm not yet.
58:11
I didn't make made-up my mind about it yet.
58:15
I've had some decent ones. I've never had anything profound
58:18
that was like that, but I've had some stuff where I was actually
58:23
kind of shocked kind, I hate it. I I didn't want to like it and I
58:27
was like, it's. Not bad.
58:29
It's UN bad. I'm bad.
58:31
I think it's you prevent a lot of mistakes like, you know, yes,
58:35
you don't have clumps because you mix it once properly.
58:39
You don't over steep because you never heat it up.
58:42
But it also lacks some of the body and the power I feel
58:45
because how they do it is they they add it into a cup, a
58:49
preheated cup, and I just add 20 mils of this liquid and then
58:53
never whisk it or anything. And then they just pour a bit of
58:56
hot milk in it and try to mix it all.
58:58
And then they make their lots of that's my assumption.
59:01
And it it's kind of a cold brew matcha topped up with hot milk.
59:05
And then you never properly extracted the matcha in a sense
59:08
of that you got all the, you know, like this one or two
59:11
minutes whisking it, exposing it to like 7080° really extracts
59:17
some other flavors, in my opinion, Yeah.
59:19
For sure. With that kind of usage, you'll
59:21
probably want something that's like really bitter and a
59:24
stranger to begin with. Prefer it to stand out.
59:27
You know this preparation method instead of using some like less
59:31
a stranger and more sweet matcha.
59:33
Yeah, and it's also a lot about ratios.
59:35
I mean, I think that if I test random matchas like there's many
59:40
things you could say can go wrong, you know?
59:42
Like too much milk is one of the problems.
59:45
It tastes Milky and faintly like matcha.
59:48
It's a very common problem. I've been developing this
59:51
thought recently. I haven't really expressed it to
59:53
anyone yet, but curious to hear what you guys is that.
59:56
Everyone keeps talking about this bitterness and the
59:58
stringency needing to stand up to milk, but I actually think
1:00:00
that that might be the wrong framework.
1:00:03
Was reading some online discourse and everyone saying
1:00:05
that culinary grade really should be what's used in these
1:00:08
lattes and I bought a bunch of culinary grade matcha recently
1:00:12
and some from a premium culinary grade from a very well known
1:00:16
vendor that we all heard of and it was decently expensive and I
1:00:20
tasted it. I tried it in a latte, there was
1:00:23
nothing. There was no taste.
1:00:24
It was supposedly from spring harvest, I think it was from
1:00:27
some OG producer, but it like objectively tasted disgusting.
1:00:31
And like, I've even experimented and I hesitate to say this here,
1:00:35
but like using the Reno cultivar and seeing what that tastes like
1:00:39
in I'm sorry, it tastes good. There's no bitterness and it
1:00:43
tastes good. There's like a lot of intensity
1:00:46
and it just expresses different flavors.
1:00:48
And I find a lot of this very bitter and astringent stuff very
1:00:51
empty. And that really, I think we need
1:00:54
to shift the discussion about intensity, because you don't
1:00:59
just want this like bitter, astringent nothing pale green,
1:01:04
boring matcha stuff. Exactly.
1:01:07
I think that like you can see it also now a lot like if you look
1:01:10
at the successful matcha places in in the US, like recently,
1:01:15
because I do have some research about it, because I also want to
1:01:18
open like maybe a slow bar here at some point.
1:01:21
And the whole topic of like ratios and like what type of
1:01:24
drinks you offer and how much gram of matcha you put in.
1:01:27
And if you look at something like cattle or you're now 12
1:01:29
matcha in New York, which is open.
1:01:32
And I think it's just much nicer if you're using a decent quality
1:01:37
matcha. Obviously you have to have a
1:01:38
sweet spot quality to offer it for a reasonable price,
1:01:42
otherwise your costs will explode as a as a matcha bar.
1:01:46
But either making a 2G cortado, that's now my recipe, I would
1:01:51
say, which I like to do when I'm also testing matchas.
1:01:54
It's like 2G and then either it's whisked or it's like just
1:01:58
you make a paste out of it and then you add 80 to 90 mil of
1:02:04
milk foam, which is probably less than 70 grams of milk to
1:02:09
it. And then and then that's really
1:02:11
just a small matcha latte. Or you go and make a iced matcha
1:02:16
latte with 4G of matcha or like even more, but I think 4G of
1:02:21
matcha. And then with all the water and
1:02:24
milk diluting the flavor, I think you need really 3 to 4G
1:02:28
for like this. This latte, you know, like a
1:02:31
latte is not a cappuccino. A latte is a big mark of milk
1:02:35
with something inside. Yeah, no, I totally agree.
1:02:37
It's also a big ratio problem. And I think it's it's a cost
1:02:43
thing, you know, like when you say you use more, you use 1g
1:02:47
more for the drink and you use a better matcha, it means that the
1:02:52
price will double or triple very quickly because you use a better
1:02:56
matcha. And I think that's what's the
1:02:59
only problem I would say. Definitely will come down to
1:03:02
price too. Although the people screaming at
1:03:05
each other online telling all the matcha latte people to drink
1:03:08
this culinary grade stuff like they should like take a sip of
1:03:12
some of their own medicine. It doesn't taste good like even
1:03:16
in a latte format. And I also feel like especially
1:03:20
this because everybody says, yeah, you don't need a stone
1:03:23
ground matcha for a matcha latte, but you can just taste it
1:03:26
like this, like powderiness of the ballmilled matcha.
1:03:30
Not every ball milk matcha is the same powderiness, but I feel
1:03:34
like now I tested a few samples and I, I was drinking the pure
1:03:39
matcha and afterwards just like that's literally 2 minutes
1:03:42
later, I was drinking a latte with it because I just tested
1:03:45
and make a bigger batch and, and drink a pure as well as a latte.
1:03:48
And I think I can taste the graininess as as like exactly
1:03:53
the same way through the milk And it's really weird.
1:03:56
Like, you know, once it's grainy, it's grainy in milk.
1:03:59
It doesn't really work so well. No, I've noticed that too and
1:04:04
doing especially back-to-back Ishiyusu and ball mill
1:04:06
comparison. That contrast is way more
1:04:09
apparent when you have them side by side.
1:04:11
Yeah, but that's what I'm also introducing in this workshop.
1:04:15
At the end we do this practice session and everybody gets to
1:04:17
try this. Like I call it like sweet spot
1:04:20
quality, which is our Okamidori matcha, which is like I want to
1:04:23
find more of those for also offering into coffee shops in a
1:04:27
sense that it is affordable for daily drinking.
1:04:30
And you can drink it pure, but you can make a latte with it and
1:04:33
you can make a like maybe you don't make a kocha obviously
1:04:36
with it, but you make like a kind of a normal usucha and it
1:04:39
tastes good and you make a matcha Americana with it and
1:04:42
dilute it with a bit more water and it also tastes good.
1:04:44
So these are the kind of qualities which are still stone
1:04:48
milled and so on that kind of like not as much on the market I
1:04:52
think. Absolutely, I think that sweet
1:04:54
spot is exactly what everyone's looking for.
1:04:56
Harder and harder to find, but that's awesome though.
1:05:00
I need to try this I'm do you ship to France?
1:05:03
Yeah, I ship. I ship worldwide, basically.
1:05:05
I mean, my new webshop, I still have to put all the shipping
1:05:10
rates on, but like the US and Canada and the European Union
1:05:14
are on it now, even though the USI don't know these days.
1:05:17
It's a bit difficult there. So Marcel, moving forward,
1:05:22
what's your future plan for your work and for matcha too?
1:05:26
I mean, I just started with Matcha and I will see what the
1:05:29
the next month spring, because you never know with the current
1:05:32
situation, it's not so easy. But I'm still focusing on my
1:05:36
core business, which is my kind of arts and crafts gallery and
1:05:40
selling tea Ware and ceramics. But I want to integrate it much
1:05:43
more with the application of tea in general and also with Matcha
1:05:47
and build this space as a space where you can experience high
1:05:52
end craft and arts, but also crafted teas and crafted matcha.
1:05:56
And yeah, try to make a coherent experience out of it and
1:06:00
potentially open up a small slow bar here which like integrates
1:06:05
the interesting, like what's a glassware from Japan or also
1:06:10
Chinese porcelain or Chinese tea Ware into a concept of a bar
1:06:17
where you bring tea closer to people.
1:06:19
Not only matcha, but matcha obviously is like an entry entry
1:06:22
point now for many people. Sounds almost like a key Saturn
1:06:25
style with the collection of all these things.
1:06:28
And it's slow. Yeah, exactly.
1:06:30
I mean, that's the idea. It should be very individual,
1:06:33
like unique pieces. We'll see what we can use on the
1:06:36
bar. Obviously like there's a limit
1:06:38
to kind of like risk involved, but it is nice to experience
1:06:46
something from the, the, the product you drink to the product
1:06:49
you hold and then be able to after it.
1:06:52
I also say, oh, I want to take that home because it's such a
1:06:55
nice experience and I got so close to it.
1:06:58
And it has a lot to do with the Japanese tea ceremony as well.
1:07:01
I think because of the Japanese tea ceremony, it's all about
1:07:04
like for me, it's like creating also in a Chinese tea ceremony,
1:07:09
creating like the space for people to be very receptive
1:07:13
about the things they hold in their hand and, and kind of like
1:07:18
get intimate with those small things in the tea room.
1:07:23
And, and the Tianin obviously helps with it.
1:07:25
But yeah, I think it's it's interesting what you what kind
1:07:28
of mood you can create when you host a tea gathering or
1:07:32
something. That's cool, maybe you can even
1:07:35
incorporate some musics in the future.
1:07:37
Yeah, that's also on my list. Nice.
1:07:42
Yeah, it's awesome, super cool. And then it's more
1:07:45
participatory, you know, it's not something that's behind
1:07:48
glass or this ambiguous thing. It's a much more one-on-one
1:07:53
human connection kind of way to approach it.
1:07:55
Yeah, it shouldn't be too formal.
1:07:56
It should be still having kind of a bit of this casual vibe,
1:08:01
like in a high end bar where you drink alcoholic drinks, but kind
1:08:05
of like you can talk to the barkeeper, you can ask about the
1:08:07
products, you can ask about their opinion.
1:08:09
And yeah, this is definitely my vision.
1:08:12
Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm only one
1:08:14
person here running this business, so I have to see how
1:08:17
far I can get. Although, all right, it has to
1:08:21
start somewhere. Yeah, best of luck.
1:08:24
Good luck. Yeah, it sounds awesome.
1:08:25
Thank you so much. Yeah.
1:08:26
So thanks so much for coming on. I think that's all we have time
1:08:29
for, but if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider sharing
1:08:33
it with friend and we'll see you on the next one.
1:08:36
See you in the future. Thank you.
1:08:37
Bye.