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Episode 2: Aileen McLeod · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Iain Gulland: so today's guest is Aileen MacLeod who is the former. climate minister for the Scottish government and you were the climate minister at Paris, at the COP in Paris, so we're going to hear about that. You've also been an MEP, so you understand a lot of what's happening within the Brussels context. You also worked in Brussels as well before you were an MEP, I think. You've also been an advisor to the Club of Rome, European Policy Centre. And you're actually more recently had experience you're the director of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance here in Scotland, which we want to talk about as well. I think, you know, we obviously want to get a bit of a sense from you, Aileen, around being a climate minister at a COP. But also, yeah, that reflecting a little bit more about well-being would be a useful discussion as well. And also, yeah, the role of citizens, et cetera, because you actually You led a march, didn't you? You led the march on the run up to Paris in Scotland. So yeah, that would be good to hear about as well. But anyway, welcome, Aileen. Absolutely delighted to have you here today. So yeah, some reflections, because you didn't just go to Paris, you've been to another COP as well, haven't you? Maybe you could start with that one. That was an interesting story you were telling us about that. So yeah, over to you, Aileen. Welcome. Aileen McLeod: No, thanks very much. That's Ian and Wayne and and listen, thanks so much for inviting me on to the the podcast as well, this this new podcast. I'm really delighted to be part of it. And yeah, you're right, Ian. I had the chance to go to Lima at the COP there in December twenty fourteen and I'd only been Scotland's climate minister for two weeks when I sort of found myself Wayne Hubbard: the Aileen McLeod: on the other side of the of the world. So it really was He was quite the experienced and of course one of the the first people I got to meet was Paddington, Parrington Bear. 'cause there was a great big statue of of of Parrington when he kinda went into the the cop venue and as a child the Paddington Bear was one of my favourite characters so it did help to make me feel at home and at ease when I kind of arrived in this this vast venue because you know I think I guess thinking back to Lima, you know, it really was a kind of useful, I think, preparation for COP in Paris the following year. And I think it gave me, you know, the opportunity to understand, you know, how a COP actually works. And I said, you know, it's an enormous multi-layered process. And I think, you know, I'd always wanted to go to a COP. And I'd always wanted that experience of being there at the heart of the international climate. process. So this was a huge opportunity for me. And as I said, it's a you it's a multi-layered process. And alongside, you know, the formal negotiations that happened between national governments, you have subnational governments, regions, cities, businesses, NGOs and civil society who were, you know, all building alliances. They're all having, you know, different conversations and trying to influence at the outcome. And that was particularly important for me because You know, Scotland is a devolved government and you know the UK it's the UK government who leads the negotiations. So Scotland isn't at the the formal negotiating table in the same way as a national government. So I had to kind of try and understand, okay, well where could Scotland add value? Where could we make our our voice heard? And crucially, you know, where could we exert influence? You know, so I wanted to, you know, showcase what Scotland was doing, to learn from others, particularly Countries and regions that are facing similar challenges but also have been developing innovative solutions to build relationships and alliances and demonstrate that a devolved government could actually gen you know provide genuine climate leadership. And I think I learned very quickly through Lima that you know you can't influence an international process without trust, credibility and strong relationships and I wanted to use those relationships to push for greater climate ambition. So a lot of that influence for me was kind of built in the year between Lima and Paris, you know, working with the the UK government, with the EU, governments around the world, but also building support at home, you know, in the Scottish Parliament, across our political parties, local government, business, our faith communities. and the wider civil society. And I think what's important here is that that domestic coalition building, you know, that's just as important as the international diplomacy. Iain Gulland: Wow. I mean, that's quite really interesting, isn't it? Yeah, but that domestic thing. Because I wasn't, I'm jumping to another question I was going to ask later, but I can ask it now. So how, I mean, how does that relationship work? I mean, you go to the absolute, understand the event and the multi-layers of it and the relationships, the influencing and the conversations. I guess what does that mean when you come home? What does that in terms of policy making and engagement, does it help? How does it help strengthen the case for change? Both, mean, obviously from a climate point of view, but I guess we're thinking ahead to a circular economy point of view, post COP 31, how could whatever happens at that help strengthen at a domestic level? Because obviously we can get excited about multilateral agreements and pledges, but actually, you say it's what happens on the ground, Aileen McLeod: Yeah. Iain Gulland: what really makes the difference, let's face it, whether that's individually or communities or businesses. I guess I'm just interested in your reflection both from Lima and even Paris, like when you come back from places, how does it help you as a minister in that kind of political cycle that you're in to try and Aileen McLeod: Yeah. Okay. Iain Gulland: make real change? Aileen McLeod: I mean I think you know, I think COP can be very helpful to policymaking and delivery back home because its value, you know, isn't simply in the negotiations themselves but it's in the direction, the momentum, the learning and accountability that the process itself creates. And you know for me Lima in Paris helped give us, you know, as a minister of the government, a much clearer sense of of where Scotland needed to go and the scale of ambition and that's required. So the international process also gave us, as I said before, like the opportunity to learn from other countries, from other regions and cities, to build those relationships and then bring those kind of new innovative ideas I guess back into Scottish policymaking. And as I see as you said, Ian, you know ultimately the real test of COP is what happens when governments go home because international commitments only matter if they're translated into domestic policy, investment and action. And there's also that I guess a kind of powerful element of accountability because if you go to COP arguing for you know greater ambition internationally then you've got to Iain Gulland: you Aileen McLeod: be able to demonstrate that you're delivering at home so that domestic action actually strengthens your credibility internationally and the international ambition can in turn raise domestic ambition and for me that's the kind of I guess like the virtuous circle that we should be aiming for you know international ambition giving or driving domestic policy driving investment and implementation. And then the domestic implementation generating the evidence about what works and that and that experience then strengthening both the credibility and ambition internationally. So ultimately that's how I think That Copts should be judged not just by what's agreed in the conference centre, but by what governments do when they go home. And I think that's particularly relevant to Scotland because the Scottish Government has developed increasingly strong domestic legislation or domestic legislative and policy frameworks for climate action. And the focus now, you know, has to be on their implementation and delivery. And we can see that through the the climate change plan up to twenty forty and the carbon budgeting framework as well. Wayne Hubbard: I mean, that's really interesting insight, Aileen. We're going to COP 31 in the night and we're going as kind of carpet baggers. We're not really invited. We've invited ourselves and we're trying to kind of talk to anybody who will let us in the door really. talking to other people as part of this process is kind of copies like this. really big onion with lots of layers and lots of, you know, new acronyms and programs and side events and all kinds of things going on. But it's heartwarming to hear that, in fact, there's lots of stuff that is really positive happening within that process. I guess it'd good to know from you, you know, how we're talking about circular economy on this particular podcast. How can Ian and I kind of, you know, influence, you where should we, where should we... choose to exert our influence in the best possible way. Aileen McLeod: I it's just being very clear about your objectives. you know, I wouldn't overload, you know, if you sort of set yourself, okay, we've got, you know, three clear objectives and then working out, okay, well, who do we actually need to speak to both before COP, during COP and then after COP because, you know, we need to make sure that that influence is carrying through. So I think that would be my advice or sort of saying, okay, who do we need to talk to if it's in terms of governments? Try and also find out where, you know, other organisations are sitting in terms of you know, what their positions are and priorities because if you can actually build sort of a common position and get lots of support behind it, that actually helps to strengthen your case. because I was going to come back to actually the experience from Paris, which I think might be quite relevant for you because you know, when I arrived in in Paris, you know, I felt that I wasn't just taking the Scottish Government's position with me, but I was taking a much broader base of public and political support for that greater climate ambition. and I think, you know The one thing about Paris that was so extraordinary, I think was because it demonstrated that power of political leadership that was joined with public mobilization, the practical action and international cooperation. Because what we saw in the the lead-up to Paris, and at Paris itself, was this unprecedented collaborative effort that went far beyond national governments. So you had, you know, subnational governments, regions, cities, mayors, local authorities, businesses, NGOs, civil society and communities. Everybody was working together to build that momentum for greater ambition. So that's why I think is it's so important to be able to kind of establish, you know, what where other organizations are kind of sitting around the southern economy, where their priorities are, where can we actually band together to be able to have a more forceful voice, I guess, because the one thing at Paris that was that again was so extraordinary was the fact that people power mattered. And I think for me that was one of the most important lessons of Paris is that yes, international agreements, you know, they're essential. But they're strongest when you've got that political leadership, when you have the public pressure and the practical action, because they reinforce one another. And it's much easier as well, I guess, for for politicians to see a united voice because that also helps to encourage politicians to go further and faster. You know, I guess Ian, when we were talking earlier about, you know, before I went to Paris, I was involved in a You know, there was a a march of like thousands and thousands of of of Scots who marched down the mound and Princess Street Gardens and who were all demanding, you know, greater climate ambition. They wanted that one point five degrees, they wanted our governments to sign up to the Paris, an ambitious Paris climate agreement. And I always remember that, you know, when I before I just before I went to Paris, I remember thinking You know, we've got this consensus now, you know, we've got cross society consensus, we've got cross political party consensus, we've got a very strong position from Scotland. So I can now go to COP with that position behind me. But I actually can go further because I have that support behind me to be able to do that. But it you if you've got a a united voice around that, that actually helps you to be able to exert greater influence. Iain Gulland: I'm already thinking how do we get the anti-disease voice in the circular economy Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: in the next 10 weeks? But maybe that's what the podcast is all about. Maybe we should be more ambitious about our marketing of it to make sure that... Aileen McLeod: But that's what we're thinking we try and find we try and find what are the key priorities within the succored economy. What is it we actually want to see happen and be delivered by our national governments, by our devolved governments, and how can we work together with them to enable that change to happen? Iain Gulland: I'm trying to remind myself of what that was like back in, you know, that moment running up to Paris in 2015. And there was, you're right, there was that kind of, that ground swell of support, not just in Scotland. mean, there was marches, I think, all over, all over the world, I the thing about the circular economy is, It's the first time it's been formally put on the agenda. I mean, think it has, you know, it has been discussed, but I think it's the first time the Circle Economy and Zero Waste is on COP agenda. Scotland, you know, has got policies like you've talked about for climate, you know, quite progressive policies on the Circle Economy or Circle Economy Act and other countries have strategies and similar policy approaches. It's already happening. It's something that, you it's not like people are asking it to happen. There is a lot of activity, there's a lot of interest both from national government, sub-national governments, regions, cities, there's businesses, there's corporates, there's social enterprises, there's individuals asking for, well, they're participating in this. They're not really asking for it anymore, they're really participating in this, but what they're asking for is, more support or more recognition that this is offering a clearer certainly tackling climate emissions a clearer benefit from there, wider environmental benefits in terms of tackling the resource depletion, water stress, biodiversity loss, but also a social dynamic. This is a much more social dynamic as much as anything else. does it feel more complex or do you think there's an easier route to take something into that discussion around circular economy progress? Aileen McLeod: I mean I think yeah, I think you're you're right, 'cause I think so for a long time, you know, the the the climate conversation has been sort of dominated by you know decarbonising energy systems and reducing territorial emissions. So we know that, you know, climate action is also about the materials and resources that underpin, you know, our economies, you know, how much we extract, produce, how much we consume, and ultimately waste. so I think What's I think what's very positive is actually seeing circularity moving up the climate agenda now. And the very fact that the COP thirty-one presidency has now moved this into the climate action agenda itself around and zero waste and the you know the I think a proposed global circularity material use target of around 15%. So I think I think that's a really important step forward. And I do think that the current geopolitical environment is actually making circularity I think much more politically relevant for governments. you know, you've got concerns right now about like energy security, critical minerals and raw materials, fragile, you know, global supply chains. alongside we've got a rapidly growing demand for materials from, you know, electrification, from renewables, from our batteries, AI and data centers and which made that resource use has become, I think, an economic and geopolitical issue as well as an environmental one. So, you know, circularity is no longer just about environmental sustainability. You know, it is increasingly now being connected to that climate mitigation, to resilience, to competitiveness, resource security and economic security. And we are seeing that being reflected in policy developments in Europe. you know obviously we've got the forthcoming proposal for the EU Circular Economy Act, but we're also seeing it you know internationally as well. So I think COP thirty one actually comes at a really important moment. But I think the opportunity, the real opportunity, is to go beyond simply adding circularity to the climate agenda. because you know, too often I think as you quite rightly said, Dairy, you the circular economy is It's still understood primarily in terms of you know recycling and and waste manag waste management. And you know, those things matter, but the bigger opportunity is much further upstream, you know, how we design products, how much material that we use, how long things last, whether they can be repaired and reused, and ultimately how do we reduce that unnecessary or unsustainable you know, extraction and consumption of of resources. So as I say I think I think the recognition now of circularity within the crop the COP process itself is important because it gives COP an opportunity to broaden the climate conversation, you know, from decarbonising energy, reducing emissions to looking at how we use materials and resources across the whole economy and bringing in that you know other dimensions around the social dimension. There is a much bigger question here I think, and that's about how our economies are structured. You know, how resources flow through them, how value is created and distributed, and I guess how do we actually ultimately build economies that will enable people and communities to thrive within the limits of our planet. Wayne Hubbard: that that was a absolutely beautiful answer. Let's just talk about the politics of this because that's what it's all about. You know, it's all about Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: people. We're not quite sure where we might put you second on our list, Aileen, just because it probably just sets everything else up. But lot of the conversations that we've had thus far have absolutely talked about geopolitics, resilience, batteries, energy, electrification, all of the things you've just mentioned. And It means that this, you know, it sounds to us this is an absolutely irrational, essential change that needs to happen in the economy in order to manage the tensions of the latter part of the 21st century that we'll be moving into. but... it's really important, isn't it, to get the politics right. And Ian and I have maybe zeroed in on two aspects of the circular economy. Maybe the circular economy is all about performance and access. access to things doesn't have to be new and the performance of things or the performance of services and there are many ways in which the circular economy kind of attempts to resolve that. But I wonder, Aileen, if you could just maybe comment on how you frame this politically in order to make it cut through and make it a success and make governments across the government. landscapes so like horizontally not just in the environment or climate change department how do you make governments buy into this whole agenda big question Iain Gulland: You Aileen McLeod: Yeah, I mean I I think I mean you're right because it's a this is a huge political challenge. because you know ultimately the responsibility kinda rests a lot of this with national governments and I think right now many of the political incentives are kind of pulling in the opposite direction. and instead what we're I think seeing at the moment is a There's a bit of a kind of political retreat that's going on. I think to kind of maintaining the the the status quo because we're sharing the kind of short term thinking over or long term thinking. we're also seeing a lot of kind of political caution, I think, over the difficult decisions that we know are necessary. Plus there's the electoral cycles as well. But governments right now are of course are dealing with you know, cost of living pressures. There's concerns about, you know, jobs and competitiveness and the the fear that I think profound economic change will be politically difficult. And there are obviously there are know, there are very powerful interests that are invested in a status quo. but the governments need to be able to I think we need we need more political s political support, but we also need that public support. But people need to be able to see that this isn't simply about sacrifice or higher costs. But what circularity is about is creating good jobs, good local jobs, lower energy costs, healthier homes and communities, you know, greater resilience and greater economic security. So I think bringing in a kind of social dimension to this and making sure that we're seen as, you know, kind of this is affordable, that this is will actually help people to be able to have, you know, warmer homes, more affordable homes, that this is know, healthier communities, that you know, and actually helping to build, you know, more resilience into our local communities. Iain Gulland: That's really interesting because that leads into, you know, I guess our experience, myself and Wayne's, that we've kind of seen that, how that's been demonstrated or how that's been taken forward is at that local level, so cities, regions, and you mentioned again about the importance even within the climate agenda, the sub-national governments, to some extent having discussions and forming. alliances and showcasing what they're already doing and learning from each other. And I guess going back to the cops, it still feels like it's a very national, very high level countries talking to each other. It's not, yes, it's global, but it's actually delivered locally. It's about local supply chains, local investment, and to some extent, community involvement as much as anything else. So I don't know, yeah, I mean it's... you know, having that voice, don't have a question, but I guess I'll articulate that again. The importance of that local cities, regions voice at COP, I think for us really important, which I guess is one of the messages we'd like to take It's that local approach that really, I think, going to make the difference. Aileen McLeod: Yeah, and I would agree with that, Ian, because I think I think there's a real you know there is a real difference being present at COP and having a platform to kind of, you know, showcase what you're doing, but actually having the experience of you know the people and the places that are delivering that climate action at a very local level is what's going to help to shape the political process and the implementation agenda. And that matters because as you said, you know, in cities, regions, devolved governments, they're not They're not simply stakeholders in this process, they are the key delivery actors because you know, much of that action is happening at that level, with it's in you know, transport, buildings, planning, local planning, local energy, local, you know, land use, local economic development. And also I think what's I think really important is that they're also often able to innovate, experiment and move faster than than national governments. know, I mean that's particularly important, you know, for you know, when it comes to separate economy where most of the interesting, really interesting progress is emerging from cities and regions. So I think I think there is an opportunity at COP for the presidency to try and strengthen that bridge between the formal bridge between the formal process and the people and places that are actually delivering the transition. and I think I think what I would really like to see coming out from the COP is that actually they're they're they're giving subnational governments, cities and regions a more structured role. in the implementation agenda so that you know they're actually creating a process through which they can bring the evidence of what's working locally, you know, identifying the barriers they are encountering and sharing those practical solutions and being able to make recommendations. But there also has to be a clear route for that you know experience and that evidence to be able to feed into the formal process. So there is a genuine two way dialogue. between the international policy and what's being implemented on the ground. And then I think the last thing I would say is I think probably most important is being able to actually connect those successful approaches, making sure they're connected with the finance, you know, with the investment, with the technology and the capacity to Iain Gulland: Yes, Aileen McLeod: be able to replicate and scale them because it's not enough just to identify what works, we need to create the conditions that allow successful circular approaches to be adopted more widely and delivered at scale. So I guess what I would say is, you know, if COP Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: sorry one is genuinely an implementation COP, then, you know, the subnational governments, the cities and regions, you know, they shouldn't simply be participants in the conversation. They need to be part of the mechanism. through which implementation is understood, supported, learned from and scaled. Wayne Hubbard: there are some really strong city networks out there like C40, obviously, and Global Compact of Mercer. There are some really kind of strong city networks, but from a circular economy perspective, they're less, I guess, interested in materials and more interested in energy. electrification and maybe that's unfair but that's the way it seems to me and you're right you know cities cities are in this really great position they're almost in the perfect position they can act and scale out wide, they can talk to their communities at sub-city level and scale deep and they can influence national government and scale up so they're the perfect vehicle for delivery in a way and yet we feel that they're, certainly in the circular economy space, not best used and there's this famous phrase isn't there, cities act well. government's talk and that seems to sum up in a way the cop process to a tee. You know the glacial pace of intergovernmental change versus the dynamic and dramatic pace of change that can take place at city level. So we you know we're interested in that very much so. Aileen McLeod: Yeah, and I think I always want to think about, you know, there's that phrase think globally, act locally, you know. Wayne Hubbard: Yes, that's right. Yeah. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: there is that whole I think, you know, the importance around, you know, the kind of place based approaches. and it's certainly, you know, like, you know, Scotland's is, you know, is a could be a a good demonstrator of some of those place based approaches. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think, yeah, and again, coming back to that, you know, our experience of, how circular economy has progressed, has been that, you know, it has been done, you know, mean, obviously from a Scottish perspective, you know, in the cities and regions and, you know, likes of Glasgow and, Highlands and Islands and, you know, Dundee, Tayside, even the Northeast, you know, that's where I think we've had more penetration in terms of not just circular awareness and, thinking about it, but actually... delivery as well. I I love that phrase, bit the bridge, strengthening that bridge, because I guess that is what we would advocate as well, is creating the right conditions. But you can talk about these things, you can showcase these things, but you have to link that to the finance, to the actual skills, to the implementation, talking about it as well. It's all very good, but you have to create that, as you see that bridge, strengthen that bridge. I think that's really, you know, really important. And we would argue, that, If we can create a circular economy, if we can design it right, we will create, wellbeing. We will strengthen wellbeing, at a social level, at an individual level, community level, and you could argue, at a national and global level. does, know, design right, circular economy plays into that. And I guess I'm just interested in your own thoughts about these, I mean, I hate to say two agendas, but you know, they really do complement each other. I just thought your reflections having been the director of the Alliance here in Scotland and thinking about that in the broader sense as much as how practical that's been applied in Scotland. Aileen McLeod: Yeah, I mean I think absolutely, I think there is much more that we could do to align those two agendas. And I think I mean it was something that you know I've been interested in through my work previously with the Wellbeing Economy Alliance Scotland. And and you're right, you know, the for a long time, you know, the succor economy and the well being economy movements have been in kind of separate rooms having much the same conversation. And you know, they come from I think, you know, different starting points, but ultimately they're asking, you know, different parts of the of the same question. You know, how do we transform an economy that is putting unsustainable pressure on people and planet? Circularity asks, okay, well how do we change the way that resources flow through our economy, how we produce, consume? use and and reuse materials. Whereas the wellbeing economy is asking a more fundamental question. You know, what is the economy actually for and who is it designed to serve? And there is now some I think really interesting work that's going on trying to bring those two agendas together, which I actually think is a really exciting development and I'm absolutely delighted to see it. I think there's the Hot or Cool Institute together with the Iain Gulland: yeah. Aileen McLeod: The Club of Rome, I think was a systems transformation hub and the Wellbeing Economy Alliance have been working together on that and just recently they published a report called Towards a Circular Wellbeing Economy which I think starts to show you know what that kind of integration could look like, you know, in practice. And okay, it's explicitly framed as a as a European framework. But I think many of the ideas have a wider relevance. and I suppose in a nutshell I think you know it kind of provides that I'm gonna use another bridge. Iain Gulland: You Aileen McLeod: But I think it does you know provide a kind of an an important conceptual bridge, you know, between the circular economy and the well being economy. And you know, their central idea is really quite simple that circularity is the means and well being is the goal. And it argues that know we shouldn't think about secularity sim simply in terms of you know recycling or resource efficiency, but about changing production and consumption so that we can meet people's needs with much less resource use and environmental pressure. But importantly, as I think we were kind of alluding to earlier, it does connect that to tangible outcomes, you know, things like affordable housing, lower household costs, better health, local employment and and resilience and I think one of the I think interesting things I liked about it was it sort of takes the circular economy strategies so around, you know, refuse do we actually need this product in the first place? So think reduce, Iain Gulland: Mm-hmm. Aileen McLeod: reuse, repair, all the way through to, you know, recycle at the end of the product's life. And it tries to then align that with the wellbeing economy principles around prevention, predistribution, purpose, participation. and it's really, you know, it's I think what they're trying to do is is by aligning these two agendas is, you know, whether again they're actually improving people's lives, you know, through, you know the way which we change how we produce and how we consume and how we use, how does that affect people's everyday lives? You know, the question is circular for what? You know, is it making things more affordable? Is it creating good jobs and livelihoods? Is it supporting healthier communities and greater resilience? and I think the the other thing was really important, I think, the report was the fact that it brings it brings in that social dimension and it puts people at the center. it becomes a kind of, you know, a people centred circular economy rather than just a circular economy that can often be seen quite, you know, sort of technical. I mean I do think it's it's the it's the beginning of a very interesting approach and I think it does present Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: a kind of interesting template for domestic action. So I think there there's a it's a very exciting and interesting development what they're trying to do. Wayne Hubbard: I think that's really interesting. think most Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: people instinctively get the circular economy as a... as a list of strategies or as business models. But for some reason, which I think you've just articulated actually, they don't get the circular economy as a concept. So although the words are kind of starting to percolate into the everyday usage, We haven't really explained it. We haven't got a narrative that really connects with people. socially and at their core. so our discourse around it hasn't really changed. Even though, quite a lot of the time the public are well ahead of politicians on a lot of these things around the usage of, I don't know, buying second hand clothes through a vintage or eating less meat and having healthier diets or whatever it may be. And yet politicians seem to lag behind. So maybe you're right, Aileen, and maybe there's these two agendas coming together gives us the ability to have that discourse at a more political and meaningful level. Aileen McLeod: Yeah, I think so because you know people obviously want to see are the tangible benefits. And that also kinda helps politicians in putting forward a political case. Because, you know, people, you know, they don't necessarily, you know, care about material circularity as an abstract objective. What they care about is, you know, Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: That's right, yeah. Aileen McLeod: whether their home is affordable and comfortable, whether energy bills are manageable, whether transport is accessible, whether products Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: last. whether repairs are affordable, whether their Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: neighbourhood is healthy, and whether they're good local jobs. So I think bringing in that well being dimension I think helps to be able to for circular policies being able to demonstrate those tangible benefits such as you know the lower household costs, better housing, accessible mobility, cleaner air, more meaningful local employment, greater resilience, better health. And that's important politically. you know, don't Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: ask people to support secularity just because it's environmentally show how Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: changing the Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: way that we use resources can actually improve people's lives. And I think that can help to build the public trust and the political support for the transition. Iain Gulland: Yeah, I'm going to put you on the spot in minute, Aileen, Aileen McLeod: Please do. Iain Gulland: from your political experience. it is interesting because it is that. I always tell that story about being in parliament, giving evidence and talking about all these strategies that we're all involved in. I can't remember how many there was at the time. Being asked about, well, which is the most important one here? All of these strategies, is there a hierarchy? And it is, mean, ultimately it is about, you know, addressing poverty and tackling inequality. You could argue that's what we're all about, you know. And we all tend to be, I mean, you made that point about ourselves and the wellbeing economy being in separate rooms and having these conversations. Because you're right, people are not thinking about material circularity, but they are thinking about their own health, their community health and stuff like that. But material circularity could definitely help. I just wonder whether there's something that, not just Scottish government, but governments could be doing around allowing more of those kind of system conversations or system opportunities to be realized. yeah, is it the way that we constructed? to construct a dialogue in government around portfolios that are obvious and given. And again, there for good reasons. You can't have all of everybody in the room at one time type of moment. I don't know, there's something there when you were speaking, just the thought, how do you bring these types of agendas together in a way that allows us to kind of explore how more pertinent, more system level approaches could actually benefit. the bigger agenda, which is about what you've just said, the Aileen McLeod: Yeah, I mean it comes to that. Iain Gulland: social and the issues, what is about communities and individual citizens. Aileen McLeod: Yeah, I mean I think that's a really good question, Ian, and you know, and I would I would agree because so much of the thinking is kind of still done in policy silos. You know, and that's you know, it's a personal reflection because that was the kind of frustration that I would have. although, you know, that said, I mean the Scottish Government did when I was a minister, did have, you know, the climate change was a sub cabinet committee around climate change which which we brought together Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: all the relevant ministers from different portfolios. and I think you know whether it's because I used to say, you know, it's not I'm not you know, I'm the yes, of course I'm the climate minister, but equally climate doesn't just stop in my portfolio, you know, it has an impact on on transport, on the economy, on planning, on health. So I think being able to kind of, you know, to bring all of those kind of the different portfolios together and being able to have a much broader kind of conversation. But thinking in systems. Because what we need to be doing is much more of a kind of joining up the policy frameworks, joining up the policy objectives. and making sure that this is, you know, much more, I guess, kind of coordinated. that we need a much, you know, a much stronger joined up policy response and how we're actually addressing. Because these are the, you know, they're very big issues, but they all come back down to how do we actually improve people's lives? You know? It's Iain Gulland: Absolutely. Aileen McLeod: and I think maybe for me, I you know, I I see how we can join up the dots. I can see the different synergies between the policy areas. but trying to actually do that when you're, you know sorry, it's not a very good response, so we can Iain Gulland: I mean, I'm going to say something. mean, I'm, mean, Wayne will edit this out because I was, you know, I'd been in the, you know, part of the ask of me in Zero Waste Scotland was increasing the recycling rate, you know, and I remember some, I have the conversation once, you know, with local authorities saying if the recycling rate was 45 % or 60%, would that improve people's lives in my community? a local politician said to me. And I could understand that suddenly. thought, yeah, how does that, putting a lot of effort into raising the recycling rate. was just, again, we're actually creating jobs in the community through the materials that were coming out. That's what he was more interested in. He was saying, how can we collect all the stuff? It's not the recycling rate, but that's what he was getting measured at by government to some extent. So I'm going to edit that out. But know what mean? It's that kind of conversation around. Aileen McLeod: I mean it is that kind of having that kind of cross Wayne Hubbard: Well. Aileen McLeod: government I think, you know, cooperation and coordination. And as I say, being able to kind of to think in systems. And actually, I mean there isn't a there is an approach that I think I've been really interested is around, you know, what has been happening in Friesland, for example. You know, Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Aileen McLeod: I think Friesland in the in the Netherlands I think has been a a really you know interesting example of what can happen when you take a collaborative systems-led approach that brings government businesses and communities together around a shared vision for a regional circular economy and I think you know there's a really interesting a really interesting example around the Frisian fiber hemp deal, I think, will help to kind of try and explain some of this because through that they brought together, you know, farmers, housing organisations, construction companies, developers, and governments together around a shared ambition. So the shared ambition being we want to use locally produced hemp insulation in more than a thousand homes. And what's interesting, it's not just about the individual project, but it's the way it connects different parts of the regional economy. So, you know, demand gives farmers confidence to produce, supply and demand give processors and manufacturers confidence to invest and construction companies can see the potential for a regional supply chain. And that creates environmental benefits, but also new economic opportunities within the region. So The transferable lesson there is about how do you build you know that kind of ecosystem around the needs and assets of a place, you know, connecting the supply, connecting demand, connecting infrastructure, connecting knowledge, investment and policy. Now Scotland has got all the ingredients, as you said, Ian, you know, with all the different players and actors and the the legislative policy frameworks. But I think where the gap is right now is the the connectivity and the delivery capacity to be able to bring them together and turn that into kind of place based economic transformation. And that's what we're needing is that connect connective tissue, is what I'd call it. Iain Gulland: Bridge. I like bridge. Aileen McLeod: Bridge, bridge, give it up. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, that's a really excellent place, I think, just to kind of tie this all up. You know, that's a great example of delivery at community and local level, kind of brokered by a regional authority. And if we do actually manage to go to COP and have any influence at all, if you were kind of... looking at the outcomes of COP31 from a circular economy and wellbeing economy perspective, what do you think, what policies would you like to see ideally coming out of the process? Aileen McLeod: I mean I think there are there are a couple of things that I'd really like to see. I'd actually really like to see COP thirty one established like a kind of global circular wellbeing economy implementation platform within the COP action agenda and it's potentially connected to the global implementation potentially have it connected to the kind of emerging global implementation accelerator. And The purpose of that would be to connect agendas that are too often operating separately, as we've just been discussing. Circle economy, well-being economy, community wealth building. and I think being able to turn some of that thinking into practical action. So I I think what we need is a you know is a mechanism that would help us to connect, demonstrate, learn, finance, and scale. and I think Scotland and Friesland, for example, could offer really interesting examples of how you know circuit economy, regional economic development, well-being, community wealth building, collaboration and local value creation can begin to come together in practice. And then I would really like to cocktail to kind of use that emerging implementation architecture that they have to connect people, places and organisations who are already doing this work. bring in others to support the effort and to create a much stronger process for learning, collaboration and scale. And I do think that COP thirty two becomes really important here because you know COP can COP thirty two could be where, you know, you bring that learning back into the international process, looking at you know what's working, what needs to change, what can be scaled. And with that, you know, learning is continuing into subsequent COPS. And then I'd I think Like them to create a like a global programme of circular well-being economy demonstrated places. And that would really become the kind of implementation engine. So COP31, and I know this is ambitious, but you could invite you know governments, cities, regions, and communities across the global north and the global south to participate, recognizing you know that different places have different assets, priorities, needs and capacities. And the point would be not Not to create a or you know impose a single model, it's been able to give places the space and the support to develop approaches that make sense for their own circumstances. You know, so bringing together areas such as housings, buildings, mobility, food, repair and reuse, procurement, energy, local manufacturing, community ownership. And if they could work through a like a shared learning framework, so looking not just at material and resource use. and emissions but also at you know well being, at equity, at affordability and local economic value. And the aim of that would be to kind of create a sort of global learning laboratory. And also making sure that they're also connected into finance and and investment to support the places that are trying to demonstrate these kind of approaching Wayne Hubbard: That is an amazingly well articulated set of priorities. do you mind if we just take those and... Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: I was gonna ask you just basically when you go to Cop, can you advocate for these two things? Wayne Hubbard: 100 % yeah that was brilliant thank you so much. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Loud and clear. I don't know, some of this is just, you know, if you use that word again, a bridge is not a connective tissue as you call it. Some of that is just how do you, you know, connect Aileen McLeod: That's Iain Gulland: what's already happening at the moment, you know, particularly from a circular economy point of view, because we know that there are, you know, things happening already. There are demonstrable businesses or communities doing really good stuff. But then going forward as more develops, how do you make sure you're connecting them in and you're making sure that people are aware of those things? think, yeah, just sometimes we use the word networks, everybody's network, but actually you're right, people, we need to strengthen that. We need to create much more of a dynamic space where people understand what's going on. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: but it was the implementation focus that you've brought to those, the doing focus rather than the talking Iain Gulland: doing something. Wayne Hubbard: focus, which was very impressive. Aileen McLeod: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: I think we Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: need to bring it to an end now, Aileen, but I wanted to give you the opportunity, was there anything you wanted to say before that you don't feel you've said that you wanted to get across before we end? Aileen McLeod: I think I would probably just like to say that, you know, you know, we don't lack you know, we don't like the ideas or the examples. We have plenty of. But I think Iain Gulland: Yes. Aileen McLeod: what we need now is as we've been talking about there is, you know, is is to connect them and and scale them, you know, because there are Iain Gulland: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: places around the world that are already showing us that you know we can build these kind of economies that are that use resources. more sustainably, that retain more value locally and improve people's well-being. And I think COP thirty one does have an opportunity to bring those places together with governments, with finance, with businesses, communities, and international institutions and to learn from what's working, to bring others into that conversation and to create the conditions for those kinds of approaches to grow. And I think for me that's where the real hope lies, you know, I think moving from knowing what needs to change, because we know it needs to change, but to be able to demonstrate in real places that a different kind of circular economy is possible. And that different kind of economy is, you know, it's a circular wellbeing economy. And as I say, being able to connect and demonstrate the reality of what that approach could look like. And we do have, you know, an example from you know from Scotland, from Friesland and being able to yeah, think globally and act locally. Wayne Hubbard: Thank you. Thank you so much, Aileen. That was a masterclass, actually, Iain Gulland: you Wayne Hubbard: in leadership. I mean, we do need leaders, and we need political leaders, so amazing stuff. And I hope that we get to meet in real life sometime and carry on the conversation. Aileen McLeod: No, I'd appreciate that. Actually that probably was the last thing I should have said was actually was what we need right now is that bold political leadership. We urgently, Iain Gulland: leadership. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Aileen McLeod: urgently need that right now. Wayne Hubbard: That was great. Thoughts in thoughts. Iain Gulland: I thought it really good. I thought it was a good kind of overview of the cop process from a politician's point of view or a minister's point of view. was really good. Yeah, lots of things to think about. mean, over that last session about linking to the wellbeing I think is really important. I think it's interesting, mean, if I scribble something down, it's quite interesting because years ago, the word that we all used, when we were talking circular economy, was collaboration, wasn't it? It's all about collaboration. all about, Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: actually came out of that, I realized, you know, the word that we all seem to be using is connecting or connect, you know, connection, isn't it? It is about how do we connect up that. And obviously there's a bit of there about building momentum, getting people behind us and not just individuals, communities, businesses and, you know, sub-nations, nations. mean, that's what we've been. talking about isn't it, it's what is that, how do we get that connection? How do we, because you know, it does feel as there's an opportunity here to connect not just the circular economy ecosystem but that ecosystem with the well-being ecosystem with obviously the climate ecosystem you know because that's what COP's all about but huge opportunity there. Wayne Hubbard: I think we, I mean, we're not quite sure where this will sit in our, you know, in the series, but Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: I think it might well be, you know, early on. And it's, and you know, we already know that there are themes emerging and the themes Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: that are emerging, Aileen kind of touched on quite a lot. One of the themes is geopolitical Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: shenanigans and the need for resilience. So circular economy. is a kind of a system whose time has come, but doesn't resonate with, as a term, with people. so Aileen kind of really gave us a masterclass in kind of linking the, why are you doing this? Not just for the environmental outcomes, but for social outcomes to the broader kind of geopolitical, which was quite incredible how she did that. I thought that Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: was a masterclass. And so another theme I suppose is networks, as you were saying, who's leading, who's doing? Iain Gulland: Yeah, he's leading. He's doing stuff. Wayne Hubbard: exactly, and in this space, there are lots of candidates for that. There's not really a shortage of cities, for example, cities networks, but on this particular agenda, who is leading and how is that happening? So we need someone to come forward. And right at the end there, Alien came up with a framework of how that could be done at a global level. So I thought that was just, it was really, really good, really interesting. And could take that as a manifesto and just deliver that on a stage at the next, whenever we get the opportunity. Iain Gulland: Yeah, for sure, for sure. No, I think it was really good. And I mean, what was interesting, we didn't get into it, I she mentioned Friesland, which I know quite a bit about, I know the guys over there. But what was also interesting, I think, you know, we should probably, maybe even to get something on from Friesland, because what, it's actually led by businesses. Yes, the... you want to call it, government is involved in it, know, in academia, there's university, so there's a lot of other partners involved in that, you know, but it is actually led by businesses. It is, and I say local, mean it's quite a populated region of the Netherlands, but there's businesses, there's local businesses, so that example that you were talking about with them, there's really local businesses coming together. I know it's been facilitated by them, yes. they're asking for input from the municipality and stuff like that. But I think, again, that's a really interesting approach where they're thinking of it from a local supply chain opportunity that they would deliver for local housing or local farming. So it is about, but again, these are. These are, I hate to use the word silo, but these are different. We treat these places differently. Agriculture's over there, we treat housing over there, and we treat manufacturing over there. Even at a local level, how do you get all of those people around the table to see these opportunities? Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: Again, that's for me the connectedness. How do you connect all that up? And then how do you connect that to the finance, the operational aspects that you need to deliver it? Wayne Hubbard: I Iain Gulland: She explained that. She explained that's what we should be doing, building that platform for that to happen, think. Absolutely. Wayne Hubbard: you can get over your queasiness, political queasiness, that performance and access means things will last longer Iain Gulland: Good. Wayne Hubbard: and you might be using things for first, second, third or fourth life which means reuse, which means second hand. If you can get over your political queasiness, then you've got a way into affordability, material sustainability, and as Aileen said, using the materials economy to improve change and improve people's lives, which is like, that's what it's all about, isn't it? As well as saving the planet, obviously. Iain Gulland: Okay. Well, the argument is we need the planet to support all of the people on it in terms of their own well-being. mean, that's the... Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, impact one, save the planet. Impact two, make people's lives better. It's not hard, is it Ian? Iain Gulland: What's the name, Mark Shailor thing, was it? You know, can't survive on a dead planet type of moment. So it's the same. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: That's right, yeah, 100 % obviously. Iain Gulland: So of course we're at that end, but then that's not the reason. We're not just promoting circularity for circular cat circularity sake. It's actually part of that wider agenda to make people's Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. Iain Gulland: better. we need a healthy planet to do that. Wayne Hubbard: Good, I think we should end it there. Iain Gulland: Yeah, that Wayne Hubbard: That was brilliant, really good. Iain Gulland: was good.