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Behave Like a Business Owner: Chris Papin's Blueprint for Small Business Success · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Welcome back to the Better Together podcast. I'm your host, Sean Sunsvold, along with Kelly Sunsvold, my co-host, my business partner, and spouse. On this show, we get the opportunity to interview some amazing guests who are building businesses, sharing their stories, and helping to pass on inspiration to other business owners. Today's guest is going to be a great part of that. His name is Chris Papen. He's the founder of Papen CPA and Pappen Law in Edmund, Oklahoma. And Chris carved out a path that most people told him didn't exist. He, you know, became a CPA, he skipped the big four, he became an attorney, he skipped going to big law, and decided to build a practice where he could show up as both the CPA and the attorney for the same business owner. Along with that, he's a keynote speaker. He's the host of the Blabo podcast. And for those of you who are wondering what that is, it stands for Behave Like a Business Owner. And he's also the author of the book 168 Hours. Cross all of it, Chris keeps coming back to one very simple idea. Resilience isn't about avoiding the hard seasons. It's about staying present for the decisions that come with them and also knowing when to hand something off and when you have to be the one sitting at the table for those important decisions. So Chris, great intro. You've got a lot on your plate. You're a great, you know, just a lot happening in your life, so welcome to the show. Christopher C. Papin: I appreciate the opportunity to be here and hopefully we share some nuggets of wisdom along. Shawn Sundsvold: I'm sure we will. It I think it'll be a fun conversation. So let's just start here. For people who maybe don't know you, never heard of you, kind of give us the quick rundown. you know, you're CPA in Oklahoma, but give us all the hats you wear right now. Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, so the elevator speech goes something like this, and then there's part two where I'll actually explain it. But we represent small businesses and small business owners. that's who my family is, that's who I am, that's who my team is, that's who we work with. I mean, literally everything is built around kind of that small business, small business owner entrepreneurship land. so you say that and it sounds great, and then everybody's like, Okay, so what do you do? Well A lot of it is focused on pain points. And this is where kind of CPA firm, law firm, like all the different hats. We can be general consultants, but most of the time people come to me with, hey, I want to start a business, or I'm trying to sell my business, or I I need to buy some assets or go to a second location, or I'm paying too much in taxes, or I need to hire a somebody in the state of. So those pain points. Get filtered down and of course state regulations and laws push it to one license or another, right? But the idea is is that we brought a team of people together that kind of know these things. We've we've been down that road in some way, shape, or form. So the punchline I'm gonna run with is when I was a young professional, I mean, I'm I'm early thirties, young, dual licensed, you know, smartest guy in the room with all the licensing, but Those that are a little more wise and have a lot of experience looked at me and said, What the hell do you know about business succession planning? And you know, there's there's kind of that moment. And I was like, Well, let me tell you this story. My dad passed when I was 21. My brother was running the business. My brother had to step in. Yes, we had infrastructure in place, and we had other professionals that were not me kind of help facilitate that, but I've lived Gen 1 to Gen 2 transition of a business in an unplanned scenario. What do you know about it? And all of a sudden, there's kind of this, ooh, you do know something. So Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: that's why I start with the small business owners world and representing, because we've seen a lot of things. I may not have personally lived all of them, but we've seen a lot of them and or we've helped folks navigate through them. And I'll be the first to admit when I haven't seen it and I haven't done it, and we'll go find partners who have. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, that's awesome. Kelly: I mean, being able to know where your weaknesses are and strengths are, I believe, is a good sign for a leader who's obviously self-aware. and that's the kind of person I want to help me with my small business. So kind of taking you back just a little bit, you learned some of this from your parents. so your aunt your parents were also entrepreneurs. So what was that like growing up and watching them build their business? Christopher C. Papin: So what's well, I guess I should say th this first. There's a bunch I take for granted just because I was present. You know, you you families that are in this space, get it. you know, dad would go to two hour lunches and take me from thing A to thing B in the summer and go play basketball with me. And I it it was just normal to me. But as Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: I got a little older and you start to look through the lens and recognize, not everybody's peop peop people had the flexibility around them. Do that. So I by example got to see some of the flexibilities that came with all of these different things. And then mom and dad both taught at our local university while owning businesses. Mom's got a whole bunch of letters behind her name. She's she's a private practice counselor, but you kind of get drug into stuff, is the way I like to say it. But you know, that's probably where we get these multi-hat, multidisciplined things. A lot of people will say it's overwhelming. And like, how do you do all of it? I'm like, guys, it's just another day. I clock in at eight, I clock out at sometimes at eight, but we try to focus on the eight to five window. And because of what I grew up in, yeah, some days are you know, you start before the sun comes up and you come home after the sun goes down, but you also get to do something different in the middle of the day because I chose to and I had the flexibility and I was wise enough to block the calendar. So they were great examples. They were not in the same disciplines that I was. My my brother is the one that kind of turned me onto accounting a little bit. But a lot of the community elements, the networking elements, the engaging people, that stuff I just got because I saw it. And and you know, what's marketing one one? Don't call your business your name. Yeah, Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: I violated that. knowingly because I'm trading on their goodwill in the community, because when people see Pappen, it comes with an expectation. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. So funny, like you're when I was reading your book Right, and there was a story in your book. You were talking about your dad in there, and my my dad was also an entrepreneur, and you you kinda talked about his presence in the market there in Edmund, right? Like he built a business, he knew a lot of people, and you know, one of the things and my dad passed away when I was twenty-six, so you know, he's he was fifty-six, I think, pretty young. you know, so you kinda have that similar story there. But when his funeral, one of the things that people said was he always had a way of making them feel like the most important person in the room when he would talk to them. Like he was really good at just blocking everybody else out. And so I was, you know, just hearing that like it sounds like your dad might have had kind of that same thing, that same skill. Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: did you ever feel like that was a lot to live up to as you're now kind of picking things up for the second generation of work? Christopher C. Papin: You know what's it's weird. I never felt and and like I get the questions similar to this quite a bit. I never felt the pressure to be one thing or another. Or I never felt like I had to fill his shoes or any anything that was. I've had people make comments over the years that, you know, we see a lot of your dad in you. And of course initially I think that's a compliment, and then a little bit later I'm like, hey, what'd you mean there? But in in all instances it was positive. But maybe I was naive, maybe it was just kind of the the way things played out that because he had such a positive presence and like the types of people that were giving me those things are also examples in the community too, that I kind of knew what it meant. so Good or bad, never felt the pressure. I think moms do a lot of credit 'cause of her counseling background and everything else in the sense of Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: she said repetitively, I want you to be well around it. I want Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: you to know lots of things about lots of things. I don't want you to be an overly specialized person in one thing. You know, like we the running joke I tease about is I'll pick on attorneys, but you know, attorneys are great at being jerks. Not real good about interfacing with humans. So Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: i in that in that same space She was cognizant and maybe it was her coaching after his passing that kind of took some of that pressure away. I'm not entirely sure there. But it's it's interesting too. And I'm I'm sorry you've had to live the same journey I have, but as you're telling it, I'm like, Yeah, that's my story. So you know. You you just know Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. Very much so. As it it changes you a little bit as a you know, when you lose a parent that early, right? It's like there's this you know, especially now, it's like you there's a little bit of a gap, right? You're going, Man, I wish I could show my parent or parents, you know, what what I've built, you know, and like just kinda let them see that. So yeah, I appreciate the, you know, question there. Kelly: Yeah, and I think the questions that come up, you know, in our private life, we sometimes talk about like what would your dad say about this? You know, like I wish I was Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly: here to ask a question and yeah, and someday and honestly it's you know surrounding ourselves with people like yourself that just really make this journey just a little more sweeter. So kind of going back, so chronologically, CPA came first. You went to and then Christopher C. Papin: Mm-hmm. Kelly: you went to law school, right? was that always the plan or did you did something along the way kind of make you realize you needed both? Christopher C. Papin: Yes and no all at the same time. So like s think high school and you're kind of doing all the different classes. I started to recognize and you know, as a kid, like doctor, lawyer, astronaut, cowboy, firefighter, like all the things, right? But I started to recognize the sciences. Not that I was not good at. I always excelled in academics. I didn't have the the drive like I did with other other interests. So it it Like started to kind of recognize, okay, interest level, got to college, kind of going down the business path, narrowing down. Okay, yeah, I numbers made sense to me. Like it's just just kind of this art in the in the back end, even though it's both an art and a science all the same time. So as I'm going through that accounting program, I start to recognize, wait a minute, there's there's kind of these things that are going on. The story I like to tell is I I literally go to a professor, I'm like, why are we skipping all these chapters in the book? The answer was that's what lawyers do. The cool part would be if I were, you know, twenty something years old and said, it'd be awesome if I did both of those things. It wasn't that deliberate, but I recognized there, that's kind of dumb, but didn't understand how the the business side of that was gonna play out. So finish accounting school, take the CPA exam during law school, during breaks, which everybody claims, you know, were you nuts? I'm like, I didn't know any better. Worked out great, passed all the sections first try, who cares? But I started to recognize in law school I missed the numbers. I missed the engagement of business because we were doing all kinds of different things. So that's when it all started to dovetail together. And how do I find this small business owner, dual representation? I could have done things at at you know multinational levels as as a JD CPA, and but that wouldn't that wasn't my passion. Spent some time in corporate, enjoyed it, loved every minute of it, had every opportunity I wanted, but didn't want to leave Oklahoma City. So there's there's kind of this refinement with each chapter you go through that no it wasn't super intentional, but yes it was somewhat curated. You know, I I always go to sports analogies on those, but when you when you think about like a football play, you know the wide receiver is supposed to do a certain thing and you're gonna throw the ball to a general area, but based on what the defense does, you adjust. And that was kind of the Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: same path I was on. I you know, just read the room, read the the career path. Finished law school in two thousand eight. exceptional time to find a job, but found the right job for me. And there's probably some divine intervention that guides me in that path to find some mentors that were in the space that were willing to to tolerate me as a young professional, because I'm sure I did it all right the first time. But that's Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: part of the journey. That's part of the learning curve. And I wasn't scared to embrace it. Shawn Sundsvold: Totally. And I think there's, you know, for a lot of people, there's that idea of like, well, I I made this decision and I'm going this direction, but you know, life changes, life is fluid, right? And you've got to be able to adapt when those kind of things happen. And you know, and as a as a business owner, I'm just kind of thinking, you know, you you are in a very unique space. Like I can come to you as a CPA, I can come to you as a lawyer. But for most business owners, those are two separate people, right? Like Christopher C. Papin: generally. Shawn Sundsvold: I have an accountant. I have a lawyer, but they're not the same person. And so, you know, I'm I'll ask a question to one person and they might give me an answer and I'll ask the question to the other side of an attorney and they'll give me a different answer, you know, and so it's like they don't talk, right? So I'm just kind of thinking about you and, you know, what's where have you run into situations where you've got both licenses and it actually changes the advice you give a business owner because you're able to see things from both sides. Christopher C. Papin: So think of children for a minute. Children will ask mom one question and ask dad fundamentally the same question, but in a slightly different way based on mom's response. So clients have the same behavior. And what really helps me is what role do you want me to play? You know, I get- I can start to ask these different questions in a different way, but One of the most common things is, you know, new business owners comes to me and they're gonna be the next pick personality on Shark Tank or Elon Musk or you know, pick pick whatever it is. Like they're gonna be the next multi-billionaire person in the world. And then I get to respond with something like, Okay, but that's like on the third standard deviation of likelihood. So let's talk about a scenario like this. And I my my script is always, so you're gonna make seven million dollars this year. Net income's gonna be six million of that, roughly two million is going to tax. And they will respond with stuff like, Well, that's not realistic. Why don't we work off my pro forma? And I'm like, Well, you being on Shark Tank isn't realistic either, but that's where you started. And and it shakes people a little bit. And yes, there's sarcasm, and I'm and I'm not trying to be demeaning. What I'm trying to do is strip down the ambition and focus on the reality. So to get to your point on this. I know this is a long journey to get to the punchline, but the reality of people selling for multimillion dollars in one of those Shark Tanks environments Let's just say less than 10%. The likelihood that you're gonna operate your business and need to extract cash so that you can buy your vacation home, pay for college educations, 90%. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: So I know the math on both the CPA side and the law side. So how you set the legal entity up matters for the financial operations. What tax election do you make? Oftentimes the attorneys don't know that answer because they're not fed the financial info. So we have to create an entity, go to the CPA, then go back to the attorney. That back and forth's all dead if I can get people to strip down and focus on the reality of what we're about to do next. And and that's where I think the power of things comes in because really I'm consultant first. We're playing Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: the game of, yeah, I know what you want to be and I know where you're gonna go, but the reality of that is relatively slim unless you have experience in the industry bringing deals together and selling to multi million dollar companies. If you've done that before, I behave a little different. If you're Joe Schmo that's starting, I don't know, a service business in your local community, highly unlikely you're gonna be on Shark Tank this year. Just Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: so those are the things where I try to be real and I do try to add humor just so I don't feel like I'm coming at people. But there's a crossover, but the client doesn't know it. And and that's my point, like with the kids, go back to this punchline. Like kids act like parents don't talk to one another. Like, you know what I mean? Shawn Sundsvold: Yes. Christopher C. Papin: Like by the time the kid got to dad, dad already knew the story. But hey, what do you think about? Happens every day. And and I think clients kind of behave in that environment too, where maybe they're trying to get away with something, but I think they're more innocent than the children. Kelly: Yeah, that's funny. Tying that to parenting. yeah, we've never experienced that. Shawn Sundsvold: Never. Christopher C. Papin: No. Kelly: yeah, so how often when someone comes to see you either as a CPA or as legal? Because that's a really unique but also really awesome pairing, or maybe they come to you for both, that they admit being a little bit nervous coming to talk to you. Christopher C. Papin: So what's weird is on the CPA side, almost nobody is nervous and everybody wants to tell me how to do my job. And then I ask a question like, What's your entity structure? And they'll say, we're an LLC. And then I'll say, How are you taxed? And they'll say, I'm an LLC, which is not a tax type. So instantly, you don't know what you are, but you're gonna tell me how to do my job. Law side, everybody's scared to death. We don't know, we're gonna screw up, we don't wanna get sued, like there's all this stuff. So it like very much matters on the topic that's coming in. The the majority of what we see is people are coming in based on some version of a warm referral. And then with kind of digital space now in the last I don't know, let's say post COVID, so five, six years-ish, there's a brand of me online somewhere so they can kind of get an idea of what my personality is, which humanizes. the experience. They're still maybe a little nervous. But you know, again, I I like the stories and and I think it makes it more fun for the audience. And I but audience members have done the exact same thing. Almost once a week, we will get a new client that calls and says, Hey, I've got a a CPA or a tax preparer, EA, whatever it is. He or she is a really good person. We like working with them. We don't think they do bad work, but they're not really giving us proactive advice. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: Okay. Spend 30 minutes having a conversation. We go off, do our thing, put together a proposal based on all the things they asked for in the conversation. And the reality here is they see numbers that they've never seen before because they're asking for things they've never done before. And the punchline is, well, I really just want you to file my tax return. And I'm like, okay, so we're all clear. You fired your old preparer because she didn't do the work you wanted her to do. You're hiring me to do exactly what they did. Is that correct? And they'll say, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I do not accept because you just fired them and you want me to do the thing you fired them for. That does not make sense Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Christopher C. Papin: to me. What am I missing? I thought we were having conversations about, and then all of a sudden we reorient orient and it's like, yeah, you're right. And we get off this fear of the unknown, which is really what it all b boils down to. Some people recognize it earlier on and and you know, maybe enunciate some sort of budgetary constraint. But that is you know, if you've never been down the road of growing your business to scale it up, if you've never worked with a family member before. I mean, what's like the the press out there is don't do business with family. And we as a collective unit are living proof that we all do business with family. I got family members Shawn Sundsvold: Yes. Christopher C. Papin: involved in the stuff I do. You can do it, but are you ready to sacrifice and do the things in a different way? Because the reason it's so hard is because you're trying to protect the ones you love. So you can't come in hot on a Tuesday because you gotta have dinner with that person on a Tuesday. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: So those are the realistic conversations that sometimes it's not about math or it's not about a legal issue. It's really about how do I structure this? How do I think about the conversation? And that's where the consultant piece shines through. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: And and I think you guys talk about this with guests all the time. There's a value prop beyond the numbers. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely. Christopher C. Papin: And that's really where people make or break deals or or enjoy being in the community or the give back. You know, these podcasts are not about getting paid to be on a podcast. It's about giving content back to folk, giving them their Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: own way. If they need us, they can hire us. But by all means, if I give you a tool to be able to let you have something better. Take it. I want Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: you to do it. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. And you talked about like, you know, working with family and I and as you said, we're all in that that boat in this conversation, right? Like communication when you're when you work with family has to be so much different, right? It has to be so much more almost detailed, right? Because you know all of the emotional levels that are involved in it when you bring a family member on. Christopher C. Papin: And you know, this th I think the same applies in small businesses. I mean, I I'm not a big shop, there's eight of us. And the way I always phrase it is, you know, you're my extended family to my team. Obviously Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: some I spend more time with than others, but certain times a year I actually spend more time with my team than I do my family. So Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: there's obviously layers to that. It's nice to kinda, you know, have a break for a few hours. From some of the team members and it and it helps deflate. Whereas if you're working, you know, with your spouse and you gotta go home and have the same conversation you literally just had and didn't want to have, it's different. But I mean, I don't know. I g I ask you guys this question because I don't I don't live with any of my my business constituents, but in this, did you have to come up with like a code word or a boundary or like a magical time and just say, hey, we're gonna behave differently because? Or like how'd you structure it? Kelly: Definitely. and it Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Kelly: it's different for everybody, you know, like I'm mostly in client work. I do a lot of FaceTiming, a lot of texting throughout the day, a lot of messaging and you know, things can come in really any time of the day, usually during business hours, but you know, sometimes there's those emergencies and you know, it i I I seem to remember one night I just I had had enough. There was just a lot going on in my head and Sean came in, you know, after shower and he was all excited and he wanted to stop. Any husband now? Don't want to talk about it. I know you've done a little bit back to me and I feel like it's just it's an honest conversation. you know, w we definitely have been more direct, not a code word, but it is a different dynamic working with your spouse versus working with you know, maybe a business partner and and too, like I I think too, like sometimes clients think we talk about them, you know, we have pillow talk about them or something. You know, like we're sitting there like, you know, talking about them all the time and I'm like, no, really, we have a life outside of this that we do try Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Kelly: to foster. But I don't know, Sean, you might have something else. But it is it is very different. yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I I think for me it's some of my best ideas come between about eight and eleven at night. And so, you know, we've Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: had to you know, there's a lot of times. It's just like I can't do this right now and so I'll send myself an email and you know, it's 'cause I don't want lose the idea and then it's you know, I can figure out another time to to talk about it, but Yeah, we've had to definitely build in some boundaries. Even, you know, sometimes during the day of going, Okay, this is a personal life conversation that I need to have with you right now. This is a work conversation I need to have right now. and just kind of defining defining out what those are. Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, i we've kind of done the same mechanisms. what's the the things that I perceive are kind of the hardest. I'm the introvert. My wife is or no meh, let me flip that. I'm the extrovert. My wife's the introvert. So d sometimes it's great because I'm on all day long. So by the time we get home together and it's just like we can check out and literally be in the same room for three hours and say three words. And usually we're both talking to the dog or something like that. You know, it's one of those moments. But In those other instances, I I Sean too, I have those moments where kind of like I flip on at a certain point, or you know, you wake up and like that client thing is starting to haunt you and like I gotta get stuff out of my mind. She's opposite, or she can shut it off and shut it off. And she's What are you doing? I was I gotta go upstairs and get on the computer for a few minutes. That's code for like I just gotta get stuff out. But I'll go up, do what I need to do, take the notes, come back 30 minutes later, and she's like, All right, you good? It's like, yeah, we can go back to doing whatever. doing. So I think the point in here is there's a there's a communication element, but there's also this weird like lifestyle you build around whatever it is. But this goes back to the flexibility of entrepreneurship and small business, which is exactly why we did it. Kelly: Absolutely. Absolutely. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly: It's you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything, but it does you do have to have those boundaries, especially around protecting your family time. you know, so it it definitely is. So kind of going back to your book a little bit, you've said you've said people let the day run themselves instead of running their day. Let me make sure I got that right. People let the day run themselves instead of running their day. So what does someone actually do this week that they could start clawing that back? Christopher C. Papin: So z all of this is intentionality and clarity. And in the story I like to tell here and pick your sport. But typically in sport, I can ask somebody like we we did this at a at a presentation we had on Wednesday. It said, Hey, has anybody played soccer? Everybody raised their hand. I'm like, okay, those of you that haven't, throw their hand in the air. It was like two people. I'm like, okay, so what's the objective? And they're like, score more goals than the other team. I'm like, okay, so you've never played, but you know what we're doing. If I put you out on the field, you understand there's offense and defense. So like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, how do you run a diesel business? And of course, this is an interior design type mind with a healthcare background. And she just like that is not my space. But that's my point in business. Business, you've got to be much more intentional with. If you were intentional about what the goals and objectives are, now you have the clarity. So whatever your objective is, you know, let's say first quarter objective is to grow business. So what are you doing on Tuesday to grow business? Or maybe sometimes it's triaging business you already have so that you can take on new business. You know, there's there's different flavors to this, but that's the intentionality. And I think what a lot of us as entrepreneurs do is we get hot, we get tired, we were teasing about this kind of kind of pre-recording, going into this conversation about okay, I just gotta get to this benchmark. I gotta get so all of a sudden we're doing the things that get us to the benchmark. Which might be exactly what you need to do this week. But if we revert to that behavior all the time, are we doing those things that are gonna go grow our business or help us develop our team or help us create a replacement for the role that just left us or whatever it may be? I know the the easy one for me to say to people is, you know, the emergency email comes in on Monday. It's not really an emergency, it's not life or death, somebody else manufactured the emergency. There is no emergency in tax land, literally none. There is at least 30 days notice on an IRS intent to levy, which would be the worst case scenario. But a client will call you the day before the notice deadline is and say, you have to do all these things, forgive me, because I was a jerk for 29 days and couldn't get this to you. I mean, that's the truth. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: But they behave as if it's now your emergency. And Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: then we go into panic mode because of it. You just need infrastructure to say, you know what? I'm sorry. What you need to do is call the IRS and ask for a collections hold because I I can't drop it today. I got other clients that scheduled with me instead of Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: drop something on the 11th hour. And if you'll create that infrastructure, this goes back to the question you're asking. What should I be doing every day? Is the thing that you set up for your business. If it's profit motive, great. If it's leave it for, great, leave it for. Do the things that get you out the door early. If it's develop a team member, sit down and develop the team member, but don't let the noise Get in the way just because other people are pushing it onto your desk. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, it's man, those little steps, right? They they can mean a lot in your business and I don't think people realize how important processes and procedures and making plans are in their business until they're in the middle of it. Right. And I think that kind of goes along with some of the things that you, you know, the in we'll put the link to the book in the in the show notes for sure. because there's so much good information about just, you know, how to run meetings, how to build a budget, how to do just some of those really, really basic things. And, you know, when this book kind of came together you had been teaching this to people for a while and you had it all on slide decks, right? So what was the Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: point that you kind of realized like, holy cow, this all exists already? How can I turn this into something more? Christopher C. Papin: Well, so it was kind of backwards in all all reality. the there was a there was a push to get information organized and kind of get book really for for marketing or or some sort of authority piece. So I'm I'm kind of framing out how I want this to play out. Every client we've ever talked to is like, I had no idea you knew these things about these other things. I wish I'd have known you sooner. And like we miss opportunities. So it's like, well, how do I get this stuff in front of people? And there became this magical point where Chris is about to go do a whole bunch of work. And it, I mean, it was a mountain. Guys, like, I'm staring and you're like, man, this is bigger than Everest. How am I gonna pull this off while I'm doing everything else? Went to sleep, woke up on a Saturday, and I thought. Okay, I gotta get started. Where should I start? You know, you ought to pull your slide decks. You've already got this organized. You know, you ought to pull some meeting notes. You you've got these notes already structured. So it was really just restructuring what I already had into a flow that made sense. And and you know what everybody needs to recognize, everything that I'm talking about, you're gonna know in some way, shape, or form. There is no aha gotcha secret. I'd love to say there is one. You know, buy the book and you'll be the best ever. That's the marketing piece. But the reality is, is everybody knows this. It says easy, but it does hard because you gotta go do it, or you've got Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: to enable somebody else to do it. And the accountability piece is the hard part. Why do I bring this up in the how did I draft the book? Because I had to be my voice. I could have had a ghost draft to write this. And don't get me wrong, I had help editing because I am not a book author in the traditional sense of getting all of that right. I'm a legal scholar. I can write for pleadings. I can write business memos. But there's a happy medium here where it's gotta read easier. But it's the exact same thing in your business. And I and I think that process that I'm describing, people will will say, yeah, that happened to me last week. You know, I went to the clients and we really thought the issue was gonna be a big deal. And when I got there it took me like eight minutes and they were as happy as can be. But we made a thing out of it going into it because I had to go back, or it was the third time I went over to whatever the issue is, or I thought they were mad at me and I didn't really know. And then when I got there, they were actually really happy and wanted me to do more work. You know, there's all these scenarios where sometimes you just gotta show up, be be present, and execute. That's it. It's not hard. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly: For sure. so tell us a little bit about the Blabo podcast. Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, the the essence of it is very similar to what you guys are doing with yours. I wanted to take the raw and the real and say, here's what people do. Because social media has a tendency to skew towards the polished, the sexy, the fun, the things that get true clicks. Hey, I wanna see like the end result of the my dream home renovation or something along those lines. Well You know, they give you a glimpse of of the guts that happen and they tell you, we had to hire an electrical contractor to rewire the house, but they don't talk about the permitting process and getting in a fight with the city and all the stuff in between. Well, I want to talk about all the stuff in between. But I'm trying to go in and and the the the Blabo concept is something that that there's a there's a small group of a handful of CPAs and I, and we there's only a few of us that use this behave like a business owner term. It's everybody has this work on, not in your business mantra. But when you're both the technician in your own business and the owner, this is to behave like the business over owner paradigm. You have to do both roles. You do need to make decisions as as if you're the owner, but you can't make a decision like the board of directors if you're giving the instruction to yourself. Because I'm worried about making the decision. Well, now I gotta go execute on it. Where I get those things. And that's kind of what the the Blabo concept was set up around is sometimes the idea sounds great, but then the execution's hard. Okay, well, do I have constituents around me? Do I have time to do that? The concept of the hundred and sixty-eight hours was built on a week. That's duration in a week. If you think of a pie chart, 24 hours, you get eight, eight, and eight. Eight of it's dedicated to rest and sleep. Eight of it's dedicated to work. If you give one hour in one place, something else must shift. And that's that same Blabo mindset. If you show up on Monday and respond to the triage email, that means your whole day has shifted one hour. So are you going to sacrifice family time or are you going to go home early and not do the thing you intended to do? All decisions you get to make, and you got to behave like a business owner in doing it. So we're trying to kind of show that vulnerability. There's no right answer in it. But the podcast was designed to bring on subject matter guests, bring on experts, and literally talk about just those simple things that we all face. we just did like a one-year recap episode, and the thing that I picked up out of the marketing people that was recurring was answer the phone. Everybody that they consult with wants more business, except they can't answer every single phone call. And it made me think of a story about a painter who told me. You know, I wish I had more business in the winter. And I'm like, okay, well, walk me through your your stuff. And he's like, well, you know, the phone rings all summer long, but I'm painting in the summer because I've got jobs. So I can't be on the phone and I'm like, okay, you need somebody to cue these jobs. I Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: can't afford afford to hire somebody and you know, instantly we go into this defensive mode of I don't want to manage a person and what am I gonna do? But to his own detriment, he wasn't answering the phone and he didn't have work in the winter. But he could have cued it, he could have done it. It's just people aren't thinking about painting in the winter. So it's the same mantra in this blabo in this business world. I think it gives some real feedback to folks. That's what people at least tell us, whether they're telling me the truth or not, I don't know. But it's it's one of these deals of kind of kind of your concept. Like let's all come together, let's share ideas, let's elevate our whatever version of community that we have, digital or or personal. So that there's a resource or or or at least a place to say, hey, I'm not nuts because I'm frustrated that I showed up on Monday and accomplished nothing. Everybody fights it. Literally everybody does. We just don't talk about it. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And you know, I th I think there's Just that idea of sometimes you can't afford not to hire help. Right? Like it it almost becomes a detriment to the to the work you're trying to do. And you know, one of the things is as w again, as we were kind of researching and doing this was, you know, we was looking through things and you've got what you call the Blabo scorecard. Right? And it sounds like you've used it, you know, in a lot of different ways and it's a great tool. how did you come up with it? Christopher C. Papin: So a lot of it is based kind of on the on the structure of the book. The book is really based on just the fundamental, like the small business administration, like business plan. You know, there's certain elements in business that you have to have. if you don't care about growth, maybe you don't need advertising and marketing. So I built the scorecard to get people to focus on what matters to them. Because go back to the question you asked about like a business owner and You know, a CPA or Lawland or what do they want or folks, I can only achieve the objectives that I know you want. If you want your tax to be zero, I can help you do that. But as we talk our way through what it means to have tax zero, most people are like, I don't actually mean that. What I mean is I want to keep all the money and pay no tax. I'm like, Well, that's unrealistic. So let's be real and figure out that happy medium in between. That's what the scorecard's doing. It's helping refine back to the reality of Do you actually want to grow? Because I I we have all talked to a business owner. We all know friends. All they talk about is growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth. Then the business closed. You Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: know, why'd you close the business? I I wasn't having fun in my business. Now that might be code for I couldn't succeed, but that's not the scenarios I'm talking about. But the same person was constantly growing. Or perhaps all they did was advertising and they did not actually do what their service was. So that's what I'm trying to get people to focus on because you've got to do all of the things to be successful. It's completely okay to sacrifice certain ones at certain times, but to call an attorney after you've been sued and say, What can I do to not get sued? is too damn late. And that's the point. If you're not doing these things up front and you're not being proactive, nobody's gonna do it for you. Hence, behave like a business owner. Right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: So maybe it gives an infrastructure for people to think differently. At a minimum, it gives them some basics to focus on so that they can think about their own business differently. And the idea is they can take that and go execute over a quarter, a year, whatever their duration is, but go focus on the most important things first and get them prioritized and then use that as your intentional what do I do Monday morning? You do what the scorecard told you to do. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Kelly: Yeah, for sure. So on the scorecard, is there any question that gets kind of like people get hung up on or kind of gets everyone and makes them pause? Christopher C. Papin: so so it's it's in one of two arenas, and in oftentimes there is a misunderstanding about finance. And it says the finance expert in the room, right? But what are we talking about? Are we talking about post-tax net worth? Are we talking about saving money? Are we talking about revenue? Are we talking about net income? Are we talking about Clients will, you know, I've got a healthy bottom line. Okay, please define your bottom line. They'll tell me whatever their net income is. They'll, you know, hey, I made $400,000 last year. I'm like, cool, your taxable income is $583,000. What were you talking about? well, really, I was as you start drilling down, you start to understand there's a misunderstanding in those numbers. Oftentimes business owners are talking about bank statement math, the ins and outs, not Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: financial statement math. So that is one that is probably the the biggest. The other one that I watch is what I'm gonna call kind of kind of TikTok or or social media influenced decisions. Where we hyper focus on something because we think we should be focused on that. But as I start asking questions, and guys, I'm guilty of this too. You know, audiences, you know, hearing me preach, but I've I've been caught. I had a marketing person ask me a couple of years ago. They're like, what are you doing to manage your inbound calls? And I went through a whole process that we do, and they're like, That's great. That has nothing to do with a phone call. That's all email-based, that's all CRM, that's all. So again, Chris, what are you doing to manage your inbound calls? And I like, I guess I let the phone tree handle it. Shawn Sundsvold: Ha ha. Christopher C. Papin: So I think sometimes we get lost in a preconceived notion. And and their point was, my phone tree basically assumes you're a client. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Christopher C. Papin: If you're a new client, who are you supposed to talk to? So guess what? If you're a new client, please press one was entered into the phone tree because I was Shawn Sundsvold: Wow, good. Christopher C. Papin: blind to it. I didn't know. I didn't think my way through it. But there's little things like that that I think it doesn't fit one category, but it's I've always done it that way, therefore I do it that way. Okay, well why? Is that actually what's best in today's ever changing AI marketplace? there was a woman Wednesday, just for funsies, I want to actually ask you a question on this. But we were all talking about AI and and she started talking about, yeah, have AI do it. And and I know there's a plumbing company in the room. So I looked at her and I said, Hey, since you're the AI expert, which AI model do you have working to install a septic system in rural Oklahoma? And like you could just She's kicking her head sideways and she's like, what the hell are you talking about? I'm like, AI can do a lot of things, but it can't go do the actual work in some instances. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: So here's my spin back. What do you guys think, especially with kind of the new AI world, is the most neglected thing that you see among business owners and the folks that you work with? Kelly: so we've been having this conversation recently with a couple people and I think what we're missing sometimes is a strategic brain. So AI can output a lot of stuff, but if you don't have the strategic critical thinking behind it, you're just producing What you know from your industry. So for example, if you have someone maybe who's no experience in marketing, I'm sure you see it in law too, or even accounting. And I'm like, well, AI told me to do this. And you're like, yeah, but this is the consequence of doing said thing that AI told you. I have a brain, have been studying this for a while. Yes, AI would say this. But here are some other things to consider. So those are the kind of challenges that we're seeing is sort of this bump up against like AI told me to do this. I'm like, yeah, that would have been really cool like three years ago. Or like, yes, that's really cool, but you don't have this in place. so we can get this in place, but if you just start doing this, it's not gonna make a difference if you don't have this. So kind of like bumping up against so called experts. yeah, I would say Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, I I think that's an exceptional answer because Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: that judgment, that critical thinking, that that extra distillation to apply it to your scenario, that's the difference between success and failure. That so Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: Kelly, well done. Sean, sorry to Kelly: Thank you. Christopher C. Papin: jump right all over that, but I love that answer. So now you gotta come up with something better, man. Shawn Sundsvold: No, hey, that was a great answer. Great answer. Yeah, no, that's not gonna happen. I promise you. you know, I for me Kelly: Thank you. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: it's like I just I see people trying to rely so much on AI when they don't necessarily have to. Right? Like Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: and there's and there's talented people who could do it, but they're they're too afraid to let things go. You know, I think that's Because they don't know how to communicate their own messaging or their own thoughts or whatever. They've relied so much on AI to create their their content and their mission and where they wanna go and you just you just can't. You know, AI is so much what you feed into it is what you're gonna get out of it. And so going back to the strategy piece, that's all part of it too. So yeah. It's a it's an interesting discussion right now, for sure. For sure. Christopher C. Papin: gonna make fun of some tech technicians out there. there are some technicians that only need to talk to AI because they're not very Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Christopher C. Papin: good with people. Shawn Sundsvold: I would agree. I would agree. Well, Chris, this has been a fantastic conversation. And before we wrap up, I have to get this out there. you and I are slight football rivals. You're in Oklahoma. I Christopher C. Papin: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: lived in Austin for twenty years. there's a small game on October tenth. Who you picking? Christopher C. Papin: sooner, ride or die until till the end. So boom or sooner, which I know you're on the opposite side of. Shawn Sundsvold: There you go, there you go. I I will definitely be picking the the orange side of the field, but I was curious, are you up for a friendly wager? Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, I g i you know, un unless there's a regulation body that says I am not, but yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Okay. Alright. There it is, everybody. There's a official wager on the game between me and Chris. And one of us will get bragging rights and we'll figure out what exactly that looks like, but we'll have fun with it. So, well Chris, how do people find you? How do people get a hold of you if they want to either have you come speak, learn about the book, have you as a guest on the podcast, anything like that? How do people find you? Christopher C. Papin: Yeah, all the ways, right? Papin speaks, P A P I N speaks, kinda drives you to a place that drives you everywhere else. you can certainly look for me on LinkedIn. all of the firms are Pap and Law, Papin CPA, Papin Speaks. We've kept that branding consistent just to kind of make things easy. the book is on the website, on Amazon, you know, a lot of a lot of different places there. But I think LinkedIn and Speaks are the easy, easy paths for folks to kind of start there. And then the the challenge I always lay on the table is, I like engaging with people, especially if we're like minded people. It's completely okay if there's not an alignment fit, but I'd rather meet somebody and say no. then never have the opportunity. So please reach out, engage. I mean that's that's kind of how this conversation plays out, right? We didn't know each Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Christopher C. Papin: other until we did know each other and now we love each other. I mean it's just boom, boom, boom, because you're dealing with folks that you like. So if if you heard nothing else in the episode, reach out, please. Just connect with folks because that's what makes it fun. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Chris, thank you for being a guest. We appreciate your time and your insight and it's just been a a great conversation. So thanks for your time and look forward to talking to you in the future. Christopher C. Papin: I appreciate the opportunity and probably more broadly I appreciate that you're trying to elevate the community and give back to kind of this online business folk. Keep up the good work that you're doing there. Shawn Sundsvold: Thanks.