Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the delightful Daniel Knight about my choice of The Time Meddler (1/4)

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Talks to the delightful Daniel Knight about my choice of The Time Meddler (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None. A hamster with a blunt penknife
0:35
for doing quicker. Quicker.
0:40
Quicker. So welcome back to a hamster
0:42
with a blunt penknife, the Doctor Who commentary podcast.
0:46
Hello Joe. Or maybe I should say Watcher,
0:51
how long you been sitting on that one for?
0:53
Oh, for the last two weeks. Yeah.
0:56
Witty full well, Watcher, I'm really well, thank you.
1:01
How are you doing? Good.
1:02
Yeah, I'm good. Sweating a bit because it's, you
1:06
know, typically the first day when the first week of kids
1:09
going back to school, suddenly the the hot weather comes back.
1:12
Like the risk of things getting too dirty too quickly.
1:15
As I've said very recently on many podcasts, you are hot, hot,
1:19
hot. So I'm not at all surprised that
1:21
you're hot, you know. You know, you've got to follow
1:25
on from that statement. Do you know what I feel as if
1:32
this is a true tonic today? Because I've, You know what I've
1:34
had to watch? Resurrection of the Dialects,
1:38
Grim and miserable. The Wedding of River Song, which
1:42
is the end of my least favorite season of New Who All this
1:45
Father's Day, You know, which I loathe.
1:48
And finally, I knew I could trust you, Daniel Knight, to
1:51
choose a story that it's like putting on a pair of comfy
1:54
slippers. Well, I have to confess, I don't
1:58
think I did choose it. I think you suggested it.
2:00
And most I was like, yeah, I love this one as well because it
2:03
is. I think it's my favorite
2:05
Hartnell. I don't think it's the best one,
2:08
but I think it's my favorite one.
2:09
And as you say, it's like a pair of comfy slippers.
2:14
And it's because I like you. I first saw this back in 1992.
2:21
Gosh. Which still feels only about 10
2:24
years ago. And the BBC took the
2:27
unprecedented decision to repeat some classic Doctor Who, or as
2:33
it was called back then, Doctor Who, which was before the
2:35
original before the series came back.
2:37
And they chose this story. And indeed one of the questions
2:40
that we asked because we did put out on Facebook, Twitter or X or
2:44
whatever it's called this week. Any questions and comments?
2:48
And a couple of quite a few people have said this is one of
2:51
their favourites or their favorite Hartnell story.
2:53
It's certainly my marks one of my marks favorite.
2:56
I mean, he loves weird weirdly loves that character of Edith in
3:00
this to such an extreme level that she's serving directs at
3:04
every Doskers ceremony on this podcast to watch who.
3:08
Out of all the the sort of ancillary characters, supporting
3:11
characters, she's probably the strongest, I think, and she's
3:14
certainly the most well defined and best and best acted.
3:18
And there is a moment which we will talk about and you and I do
3:22
Rosa. So we're not capable of talking
3:25
about tough stuff, which feels very inappropriate in this
3:30
story. And I think it's the nature of
3:33
Doctor Who sort of discovering what it can and cannot do.
3:36
And interestingly, it never does that again, thank goodness.
3:39
No. It sort of hints at certain
3:42
things like that, but doesn't. Yeah, yeah, I see.
3:49
I completely forgot that it was me.
3:50
That's I always wondered if I was a man of taste and
3:53
distinction. And now?
3:54
You are apparently so. And you're not alone.
3:58
Well, quiet. Oh yeah, that.
4:01
And I think you're right. This is a very popular story.
4:04
I don't know where it came in that DWM poll that came out
4:07
recently, but I suspect it was quite high.
4:10
It came second. They did.
4:12
Yeah, it came second. And in fact it's quite
4:15
interesting because they put in DWM the results of the last
4:18
ones, and when they did the first one back in 1998, it was
4:23
sort of mid table and it slowly crept up.
4:28
And so other stories the the rescue, I noticed, had gone from
4:32
about sort of 25 to sort of halfway, sort of 12th or 13th,
4:36
whereas the Celestial Toy Maker plunged.
4:39
Well, I mean, I'd say that was matter of taste, but.
4:42
Yes. Do you think it's got something
4:44
to do with the Blu-ray coming out?
4:47
Possibly because also because top of the list was the Dalek
4:51
Invasion of Earth and third was the Dalek's master plan.
4:54
And I think if we could see all of the Dalek's master plan, I
4:57
think it would be the other way round I think.
4:59
I think that's it's the far stronger story and it seems to
5:04
be, but again it's quite dark. There are some parts where.
5:09
Again, I remember listening to it with the with the family on
5:12
holiday in the car, trying to keep the kids amused.
5:15
And at one point I think it was after after Katarina dies, my
5:18
wife sort of said this is a bit bleak, isn't it?
5:22
You know what happened to the doctor rescuing his companion?
5:24
It's like, yeah, well, when we get home, I'll show you where
5:27
the shock this was going out at 5:00 in the evening.
5:31
Yeah. Traumatising Ian Levine and
5:34
everything else. That explains a lot.
5:37
Sorry. I mean that.
5:40
It's very good. I don't think it's a second best
5:42
Hartnell story. No, no, I mean you could.
5:46
You know we've been talking about the massacre and that's as
5:49
a piece of drama. Is is is is brilliantly written
5:52
and directed. We think it's directly, yeah,
5:55
you can't really see it. We can't see anything.
5:58
There's no not even any telly snaps.
6:00
Thank you John Wiles for not bothering to hello.
6:04
We've me and Mark have been celebrating John Cure recently.
6:07
You know he must have had a couple a couple of months where
6:10
he had no work at all. Do you know what I'm going to
6:13
tell you a a shocking fact about those DWM polls.
6:17
Do you know why they were separated into individual
6:22
doctors? It's was it?
6:24
Duplicate One of the doctors who keeps complaining that all one
6:28
of his stories is always bottom of the polls.
6:30
That's not what I've heard. I've heard it was authority is
6:34
because one particular doctor and I don't think you would take
6:38
even 2 seconds to guess which one.
6:40
Their stories all wound up at the bottom of the pulse, So if
6:44
it was a massive poll, Joe would be at the bottom.
6:47
Pretty much all of them. I mean, it's baffling, isn't it?
6:50
Really. OK, so they so they literally
6:53
separated them, just so you know, it was sort of a fair game
6:57
for each doctor. Right.
7:03
Yeah, I can't understand why people don't appreciate the
7:06
Jodie Whitaker era more than than they do.
7:10
And I know that it's not perfect and but I don't think there is
7:16
any era of Doctor Who that is. But I've certainly enjoyed it in
7:21
the same breath. I don't think you can compare
7:26
Spy for to The Time Meddler. You know, they're they're TV
7:29
made in completely different eras.
7:31
So I think putting them all up against each other is a
7:34
exercise. Whereas you can compare The Time
7:37
Meddler to Dalek Evasion of Earth.
7:39
They came out roughly the same time.
7:40
It was roughly the same production team and regulars.
7:45
Even even with classic Who, I don't think you compare, You can
7:48
compare, you know, An Unearthly Child to survival.
7:51
It's a completely different show.
7:53
Even even something earlier like Spearhead from Space or or, you
7:57
know, it's it. That's why it's lasted so long
8:00
as it's evolved and it's changed and it's a completely different
8:04
beast. I mean, even in this season
8:06
you've got, you know, the start of series Season 2, you've got
8:11
the four regulars from the first series and by that, by the end
8:14
of the season, three of them have gone.
8:19
Meant to be replaced by two others who are soon on their way
8:22
out as well. But that's that's a bit of a
8:25
sore point to be honest. I I said to you off Mike, season
8:31
three is my favorite season of William Hartnell and in some
8:36
ways it's because of the roll call of companions and
8:39
production team. So I think what you get is this
8:42
dramatically diverse amount of stories.
8:46
Yeah, unlike anything I think you're ever going to see in the
8:49
show again. But I think Season 2, which
8:54
we're watching, and especially this story, it's some of
8:58
Hartnell's best performances. Yes, absolutely, and certainly
9:02
this one, he seems to be very much.
9:07
It was a, you know, it was sort of supposed to be towards the
9:11
end of Verity Lambert's time, and he was starting to get.
9:14
Very uncomfortable and would get very argumentative and it would
9:19
be up to Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis to calm him down.
9:24
And of course John Wiles, he didn't get on with at all and I
9:27
he he was very William Russell said he was he was angry with
9:31
them for leaving. He was angry with with with
9:34
William Russell and Jacqueline Hill for leaving.
9:36
Why do you want to leave? It's such a success.
9:38
Come on, you've got to keep going.
9:40
And they wanted to go off and do other things, but that's because
9:43
he was an older man at, I think he knew the twilight of his
9:47
career. So of course he was going to
9:49
cling on to that success, you know, the most successful role
9:52
he's ever had. William Russell's a young man.
9:55
You know he's going to go on and and play the hero in all manner
9:57
of other shows. There's a bit actually in
10:00
episode one where he asks Vicky. We'll watch it in a second where
10:04
he asks Vicky and then when she gives her response, he puts his
10:07
arm around her and sort of Pats her as if that's an an approving
10:11
response. I don't think that's the Doctor.
10:13
I think that's Hartnell. I think it is.
10:17
Yeah, you're right with me. Love, right.
10:21
And but also as well with the time in love and we'll discuss
10:24
all of this revolutionised historical stories.
10:29
It's Messa in a way the show really hasn't been before.
10:34
It opens out the mythology of the show with the Monk and the
10:38
other TARDIS like Dennis Booners.
10:42
He's. Pushing.
10:43
He's looking ahead. I think people often say Doctor
10:47
Who survived because of Patrick Trout and Patrick Trout and
10:50
hadn't been so brilliant. And yeah, yeah, I completely
10:52
agree with that. But on a smaller scale, what
10:57
Dennis spoons us with this story it it basically brings in a new
11:02
dimension to the historical stories and it muddies the
11:06
water. I think somebody put us one of
11:08
the comments it muddies the water of of whether you can or
11:11
can't change history. And I think that's the the.
11:16
Yeah, that, that's it's that's the difference between Dennis
11:19
Spooner's approach to the to the series and to David Whittaker's
11:22
approach in the first season. Are you telling me that we've
11:26
got Dennis Spooner to thank for all those Steven Moffat stories
11:30
where he goes around nipping and tucking the timelines?
11:33
You've got him to thank for, yeah, for a lot of things, I
11:38
think. Also for the idea of the Doctor
11:40
not being the only person or not the only Time Lord.
11:43
Of course, it's not mentioned that he's a Time Lord.
11:47
Yeah, yeah, Fredo. It's his his fault.
11:51
There's a lot of things that are Dennis Spooner's fault, but I
11:54
think Dennis Spooner also revolutionized the show in that
11:57
he made it a lot more fun. He can write dialogue that
12:02
bounces, William Russell says in I Think It's the Romans because
12:07
Spooner writes that one as well, doesn't he?
12:10
That he wrote sayable lines. It wasn't just functional
12:13
science fiction dialogue which they got.
12:15
Sometimes it was stuff that, you know, just rolls off the tongue
12:19
and you can tell they're loving this dialogue in this Well,
12:24
should we go and watch it? I think we should, yes,
12:27
absolutely. Who's going to count us in?
12:30
Well, I introduced us, so you can count us in.
12:32
Aye, aye Sir. Let's go here, big bossy again.
12:36
All right, keep going, 54321. Well, let's go.
12:44
Oh, my favorite titles look. Is it just just the titles or
12:51
the music as well? Well, the music I don't think
12:53
ever sounds as unearthly as this.
12:55
Again, as mysterious and weird. I still can't quite, and I know
12:59
how they did it. It just doesn't act like any
13:02
kind of instrument, does it? No.
13:05
And the I like the evoquacy of special effects, which, you
13:09
know, it's on the cheap, but again, it's mysterious and
13:15
unknowing. And yeah, it's weird.
13:17
Hard to hear. It does weird really well.
13:19
It does. It does.
13:26
So there he is, the governor and Maureen O'Brien.
13:31
What do you think of Maureen O'Brien Fabulous?
13:37
I think she's very underrated. I think she's.
13:42
She was sort of, you know, when I sort of started getting into
13:45
Doctor Who was a kid and reading sort of early editions of Doctor
13:48
Who Magazine, She was kind of written off as being a bit of a
13:51
screamer and a bit of a sort of girly girl.
13:53
And I suppose there is a certain aspect to that, but I think
13:58
there's some, there's something about her that she's, and
14:00
particularly in this story, now that she's out of the shadow of
14:04
Ian and Barbara, that she comes across as a very strong
14:07
independent. And she trusts the Doctor.
14:10
I mean, look at the way she's looking up with him and and you
14:14
know, she's just she the the idea of the of Vicki sort of not
14:19
idolising the Doctor, but she completely trusts him, doesn't
14:23
she? She's, she's.
14:25
It is. That's her surrogate dad or her
14:27
granddad. And he seems to be far more
14:30
fairer and and less, you know, critical of her than she does
14:35
than he than he is of Susan. Oh, he's solo that bit in there,
14:39
the crusade. I always talk about it where
14:41
it's like it's going to be very, very dangerous and touches her
14:44
nose and here where he holds her and comforts her and says, are
14:48
you OK? Do you want to go home?
14:51
Oh, it's gorgeous. It's it's that fallacy that
14:54
Hartnell was a prickly Dr. It's just wrong.
14:58
He's. I mean watch them here in a
15:02
minute when they hear Stephen bashing around in the next room
15:06
and the two of them have got the the shoe and the coat.
15:09
I mean, it's like a comedy of manners.
15:11
It's fabulous. I could see a sitcom set in the
15:14
TARDIS, you know, with this three.
15:16
Yes, yeah, they're not quite so. I wouldn't say straight laces,
15:23
Ian and Barbara, but there's a bit more of AI, suppose, because
15:27
they sort of let younger characters.
15:30
It's a bit, it seems to be a little bit more, yeah, a little
15:36
bit more flexible, sort of flexible, a bit more Sorry,
15:39
relaxed, that's the word. But also as well, you're right.
15:43
Because I think in The Chase, Susan is written young.
15:47
I am a useless person. And all this, she gets in there
15:51
and, you know, fainting when they're trying to get her off
15:53
the building. And then you're right between
15:55
that story and this. Now she's like the oldest
15:57
regular. Suddenly she's got to be the one
15:59
that's teaching Stephen. So she's a bit more mature.
16:04
But I think I think that's just Terry Nation writing her as as
16:07
being the the the sort of the helpless female because in the
16:10
Space Museum. She's she's basically the one
16:14
that sort of starts the rebellion revolution.
16:17
She's. Yeah, exactly.
16:21
What is the question again? For what question?
16:23
For what purpose are the arms needed?
16:25
That's when she says it, isn't it?
16:28
Oh, let's talk about some of these atmospherics in this and
16:31
how he manages to convince in that studio that he's out on
16:34
location. Now I always thought this was
16:36
either filmed at Lime Grove or Riverside, but this is filmed at
16:40
TV Centre. All he's got is a load of stock
16:43
footage, brilliant sound effects of sea and seagulls and a Rolex
16:48
sky effect. I was convinced this was on
16:51
location when I was younger. Yeah, so also the the, the lie
16:58
that all 60s Doctor Who looks cheap and I'm convincing.
17:03
No, no. And there's a quote from Peter
17:07
Purvis on IMDb which he said that, you know, he never saw any
17:12
sex wobble and you know he was in doctor for a year and it was
17:15
everything was fine and it's but TV, that's how that's how TV was
17:21
made in those days. You watch faulty, I think I've
17:24
said this before, you watch Fawlty Towers, you watch Don
17:26
Cleese dash up those stairs. Those walls are wobbling.
17:29
Yeah, you know, green screen and you know, Chroma Key you've got
17:33
in things like Dad's Army and the Two Ronnies.
17:36
It's that's how TV was made and you just accepted it.
17:38
How can I be watching neighbors from the 90s, you know?
17:41
And those sets are very precarious every time they come
17:44
in and out and they're having a row and slamming the doors.
17:47
I do wish Peter Burgess had kept the beard, though, because I
17:50
always got a lovely bit of scruff there.
17:53
I think both Moran O'Brien and Peter Purfis are criminally
17:58
underrated. I.
18:01
Think it may have been because I remember reading an interview
18:04
they did separate interviews in the 80s for Doctor Who Magazine
18:08
and neither of them were very positive about being in Doctor
18:13
Who. And they they like the people
18:15
that they were working with. They enjoyed the company and but
18:19
as a job neither of them. Well, I mean Peter Purvis went
18:23
was out of work for a year before.
18:26
I mean he had I think he had a couple of sort of small parts
18:29
and then he got Blue Peter and Maureen O'Brien.
18:32
Also I think she she said that she ended up having to be in a a
18:36
supply teacher as a drama, a drama teacher.
18:39
But then I mean she's gone on to do she's gone on to have quite a
18:42
good career and also she's a writer as well now.
18:46
So I I wonder if it's because of.
18:49
And that sort of negativity that they had in their interviews and
18:51
I and I think, I think they've sort of made their peace with
18:54
Doctor Who now. I mean it's you know, you know,
19:00
good for them. It's it's kind of like a pension
19:02
for them because they're now doing commentaries, they've
19:04
done, they do Big Finish, they've done some of the behind
19:07
the sofas. I can hear the sound of the cash
19:10
registers ringing, can't they? Conventions on Connie Baker
19:15
these days, but he throughout the show very fondly now And in
19:20
the Blu-ray interview with Maureen O'Brien, which was
19:23
astonishing because I've never heard such an in depth interview
19:26
with her, she talks about how she was really ashamed of her
19:30
own performances in Doctor Zoo and how she felt that she was
19:33
sort of slumming it. I just don't think that's the
19:36
case. So just it goes to show that
19:38
this self self deprecating nature that you have is
19:41
catching. Well, I didn't.
19:44
Can I catch it off her? I've never met Maureen O'Brien
19:47
and if I did I would say how wonderful she is and to tell her
19:50
stop being silly and she's absolutely marvellous as as they
19:53
would hope that if you did meet Maureen O'Brien you wouldn't
19:56
catch anything off her. But I do like the fact that she
20:03
comes into the show and it's she's the opposite of Susan, who
20:06
is always screaming and. And terrified all the time.
20:10
And sometimes that works and sometimes that helped.
20:12
But a lot of the time it was just hysterical.
20:14
Vicky comes in and she's up for the adventure.
20:17
She's like, come on, let's go to Rome, Let's have some fun, yeah.
20:20
Oh, I think I may have poisoned Nero.
20:24
You're Nero. I beg your pardon?
20:28
Do you know what we just talked all over there?
20:30
The bit where he goes. That over Yonder is the
20:32
dematerializing control. Over there is the doors.
20:35
That is a chair with a pander on it.
20:37
Poetry. Poetry, dear boy.
20:41
Oh, he's great, isn't he? And here we have the the Saxons
20:45
with with Mark's friend Edith and of course Elise Daniel.
20:52
He's obsessed with her. She's because she was in The
20:57
Cave. She was in the tribe of gun
20:59
wasn't she played her and sadly she died quite young.
21:04
She was only in her early 40s when she died in the 7th in
21:07
about 1976 or thing 77. She was side of cancer.
21:11
Of course, she was in The Unearthly Child as well.
21:14
Yeah, that's really sad. Can I tell you a funny story
21:18
that's a bit rude? Well, you might want to just
21:21
wait for this line, because this eye is the best line ever I've
21:24
got a new car in. There.
21:25
What do you think this is? A space helmet fracal.
21:29
Rubbish. Rubbish de boy.
21:32
No more so than your theory. Oh, we're starting to do that.
21:35
Yeah. Oh, no way.
21:36
Clovisches, lapels, and he's sort of going up against
21:39
somebody is the funniest. Particularly, it was somebody
21:41
he's looking up at, somebody who's taller than him, like
21:43
Peter Purvis was. Is.
21:44
Yeah. Or Nicholas Courtney, you know?
21:46
No, you shut up, SAR. He's so great.
21:53
Oh God, that. The dialogue is very witty
21:55
though, isn't it? It is.
21:57
You can see why Spooner went on to do a lot of those ATC shows,
22:00
The Avengers and things like that.
22:01
Like because because I think they rely on that sort of quick
22:05
paced dialogue. Yeah, the sort of very sort of
22:08
quick witted. I mean, one of my favorite
22:11
episodes of The Avengers is one that he wrote, which is the
22:14
Tatara King episode. Look, stop me if you've heard
22:17
this one, but there were these two fellas which has got it's
22:21
got Jimmy, Joel, John Cleese, which that was before he was in
22:26
Monty Python. And then and of course Bernard
22:29
Cribbins, who I think is wearing the same jumper in that episode
22:32
as he was wearing in his other episode with Liz Fraser.
22:36
But it's yeah, it's a really funny.
22:38
Good episode and I think he got that sort of slightly tongue in
22:41
cheek, not taking it too seriously.
22:45
Sort of feel of The Avengers, which I think he brings, I think
22:48
it brings to Doctor Who as well. Oh for sure.
22:51
Especially in the Romans. The Romans is such a pacey,
22:55
witty script. It's, yeah, it's very, very
22:58
slow. I think the structure, the
23:00
structural problems of the Time Meddler are, I think it starts
23:03
extremely vividly and it leads up to that brilliant cliffhanger
23:07
of the gramophone and all the questions that brings.
23:10
I do think there's a bit of running around in two and three,
23:14
yes, in the monastery back to the Saxons, you know, and all of
23:17
that. But then when that cliffhanger
23:19
hits at the end of three, it's a it's a whole new ball game for
23:23
episode four, and four is one of the best episodes of the year.
23:27
Yes. So you were going to tell me a
23:30
story which was slightly rude. Oh, I was hoping you were going
23:32
to forget about that. Oh, OK.
23:34
I've forgotten about it. And when Mark and I were dating,
23:36
OK, he we used to meet in London, right?
23:39
And you know, we meet in London and you do the things you do
23:43
when you're dating. And he came along one time.
23:46
He's getting into bed. He's got a bloody T-shirt with
23:49
Edith's face on it and I'm like, you can bloody take that off.
23:53
I'm not getting in bed with bloody, healthier Charlton.
23:57
Yes, sorry, I did say it was a bit rude.
23:59
Well, but you also said that he's very obsessed with her and
24:02
wearing AT shirt with her face on.
24:05
Trouble is, he's got he's got Kirsty from the Highlanders on a
24:07
T-shirt as well. He sometimes wears those a bit.
24:10
I mean, it's all a bit strange. Where does he get all these
24:13
T-shirts from? Oh, he hasn't custom made.
24:15
Ah, yeah. Good.
24:17
Oh, that's Hannah Gordon. Yeah.
24:19
Oh, she's very pretty. She is very, yeah, And she went.
24:23
There's somebody else who went on to a very glittering career
24:26
after after she did Doctor Who. Here is our first instance of
24:30
somebody else from the Doctor's planet, and we kind of know it
24:33
here, although we're not told here because of knows what the
24:36
TARDIS is. Doesn't he?
24:37
Yeah, he's he, yeah. When he puts his, he puts his
24:40
hand up, his his ear up to the to the TARDIS door and it's
24:43
like, yes, I know what this is and what a turn from Peter
24:48
Butterworth, who effectively has to take control of the story as
24:54
Hartnell has a week off. Yes, like you said, you just get
25:00
some stock footage here and it's nicely sort of conveys that it's
25:05
it's a sea, it's that they're on the beach and they're by the sea
25:08
without leaving TV centre. And I think the the sets both on
25:13
the beach and here in sort of the Saxon community in the
25:17
forest, it's all very convincing.
25:19
It's sympathetically lit. It looks quite real.
25:22
It's it's Barry Newbury isn't it the the the design for this and
25:28
he's one of the doctors who's really really good designers.
25:32
I mean he he sort of he was sort of worked in a quite a lot
25:36
throughout the throughout. I think he's his last story, was
25:39
the awakening. He designed that, that really
25:42
wonderful church set. Yeah, he wasn't quite.
25:49
And he especially did well, like, he mostly did historicals,
25:52
didn't he? I think he only did one science
25:55
fiction one in the 60s, I think. But yeah, I mean, look, look at
26:02
the exterior of that monastery. He did he did do a lot of
26:06
research as well. I seem to remember reading when
26:08
I was sort of doing my research for this that he he looked at
26:12
sort of various different you know are they monographs or
26:15
books and and sort of you know looked at how to design it and
26:22
it's a nice perspective with that sort of sort of part of the
26:25
building that's sort of distant and again thing will be going
26:29
hang on that that that light came on quite quickly.
26:33
Yeah it's so clever. It's certainly that as well
26:36
because I believe there were letters sent to that was the
26:40
regular trans or whoever was publishing at the time saying
26:44
you know these anachronisms in Doctor Who they're not doing
26:47
their research a lie. No.
26:48
Grab my phone and it's. Like, yeah, yeah, wait, wait
26:52
until you yeah. I mean, look at that sky.
26:55
Look that looks. So good, isn't it?
26:57
It's for. I mean, it's.
26:58
So it's. It's such a simple effect, but
27:00
it works. It's that nice background.
27:02
And you kind of wonder why they never did it more often in
27:05
Doctor Who if they were doing sort of interior scenes, you
27:08
know, exterior scenes in the studio mysteries of Doctor Who.
27:12
Yeah. And I've done 600 odd episodes
27:14
of this thing now. Yeah.
27:15
So I've covered a lot of ground is they do seem to forget the
27:19
triumphs of the past and make mistakes with things they've
27:22
already got right. Five years.
27:24
Ago. Yeah.
27:25
Such an odd thing. You know, we did.
27:28
We tried an enormous monster before and it didn't work.
27:31
Why? Are we doing it again?
27:33
No, we haven't got the money. Oh, I love these scenes between
27:37
the Doctor and Edith. It does show that, you know, the
27:42
idea of Hartnell being this grumpy old man is is he?
27:46
He's he's the only, I say only Doctor.
27:49
Certainly classic from the classic series Doctors seems to
27:52
go on a journey. His character softens as he goes
27:55
on. And you know, he's very
27:58
mysterious and untrustworthy in the first few stories.
28:02
And then you get that you know the edge of destruction.
28:04
It's a it's a nice character piece where the characters can
28:07
understand each other and then they go on to be a bit more as a
28:10
as a sort of family unit from Marco Polo onwards.
28:14
I think if you watch like the Daleks where you know, it's like
28:17
you old 4, you stupid old 4 you have to see this all of that
28:21
stuff. You.
28:22
I don't then watch the web planet where he's going around
28:24
going, you know echoes the boy. You know, he's like, wow, how do
28:29
we get from there to there, you know?
28:32
But it just shows all the shades he's got.
28:35
I'm still, I said this in the savages recently.
28:37
I think he's the governor. I don't think he's been
28:39
bettered. I think there's been different
28:41
interpretations of the Doctor. For me, this is the Governor.
28:46
My dad always used to say that there's never been a doctor.
28:50
As good as Hartnell and I always used to.
28:52
Yeah, but what about Tom Baker? He said.
28:54
Yeah, well, yeah, tom-tom. Tom Baker was Tom Baker.
28:56
He was Doctor Who as an alien. Whereas, you know, William
29:01
Hartnell's Doctor. He is alien, but it's not as
29:04
pronounced. We just, we just don't know at
29:06
this point. He could be from, you know,
29:09
Earth in the future. We don't know that.
29:11
He's an alien with two hearts and, you know, it's respiratory
29:14
bypass system. And he's 700 years old and he's
29:17
from Gallifrey. It's.
29:18
That nice mystery. So he just could be just a, a, a
29:22
an old man from the future, from our planet.
29:25
So I think that, and I think that makes a difference.
29:27
I think as well, because that sort of never cruel, never
29:30
cowardly thing that Letts and Dicks brought in.
29:34
Yeah, because none of that's been established.
29:36
So anything goes. He can pick up that rock in An
29:40
Unearthly Child. He can pick up that shovel in
29:42
the Reign of Terror and smack that man over the heads, you
29:45
know, or wave the sword around with Nero in the sauna, in the
29:48
Roma. And that anything goes at the
29:51
moment and that's oh, how great is this as he's trying to so he
29:56
doesn't quite know, does he, where they are.
29:59
So he's trying to figure out what.
30:01
Realising where it is, yes, he's interrogating Edith whilst being
30:04
very charming. If they're in Northumbria, why
30:12
don't they all sound like a phrase to Gregory?
30:14
Well, we wouldn't understand a bloody word, would we?
30:19
Like Mark Adorani all over. Again, the Edith could be one of
30:22
his very distant relatives. I hope he's listening to this.
30:30
Praise it that could be your great great great great great
30:32
great great great great great great great great great great
30:35
great great great great great great great grandmother you go.
30:38
A couple of other greats in there maybe.
30:41
Oh, did you always said that? Did you get a Barbara Barbara?
30:44
Yes. Oh dear.
30:48
I mean, I I adore the Heart of Historicals.
30:52
I think it's one of my favourite genres of the shows entirely.
30:56
And when Chib has brought back those very serious sort of deep
31:01
dive historicals in Series 11 or we didn't work with and there's
31:05
in there as well and The Witch Finders, I've just thought,
31:09
yeah, he's he's doing what they're doing here, which is
31:12
kind of having some fun with history, but making a point and
31:16
giving you tons of local colour, yes.
31:20
But I think also with certainly with Rosa and Demons of the
31:23
Punjab, he was looking more to the David Whittaker form of of
31:28
historical where it was a case of, you know, you can't change
31:32
history, not one line. And I I kind of sometimes think
31:35
it's a bit of a shame those two were in the same season.
31:37
But there is a difference, because with with Rosa the
31:41
Doctor and Graham and Yasmin, they become part of history.
31:44
They become part of the narrative.
31:47
History, that historical narrative of Rosa Parks not
31:50
being able having to move and it's Graham's having to sit in
31:54
that seat and not having to move.
31:55
Whereas punch Demons of Punjab, it's almost like they can just
31:58
walk away and it what happens has to happen.
32:02
But they're not actually part of it.
32:04
But I mean 22 brilliant stories. I think it was a harder with
32:09
that horn a minute ago when he just tossed the Mead into the
32:12
grass. Bit like Tom Baker putting that
32:15
cup of. Cup of drink in his pocket in
32:18
power of Kroll, isn't it? Oh, no.
32:20
He does say something in the gunfire.
32:22
I'm afraid I don't touch alcohol, but a little glass of
32:24
milk and I'll be too delighted to.
32:26
You know, it's quite a drink. I knew I.
32:29
Was going to He's terrible. He's knocking it.
32:32
He's knocking that Roman wine back in the Romans.
32:35
And don't tell me he didn't have a little tipple in when he was
32:39
when, you know, during the Reign of Terror, which for some reason
32:42
is his favorite historical period.
32:45
Yeah, OK. Lots of people being beheaded.
32:47
Lovely. Well done, Doctor.
32:48
Thank you. Press up in fine clothes.
32:49
That's why. Go around with a bit of pomp.
32:54
Oh, all of this is fun with. I mean, I think Stephen's a bit
32:57
too pigheaded, but her trying to convince to him that they've
33:02
gone, that they can time travel, that's really fun.
33:05
Yeah, because. And it just accepted, wasn't it?
33:08
In Unearthly Child, there was no need for this.
33:10
We haven't done any of this before.
33:12
No. It's quite a nice it's it's
33:14
quite nice because I'm sure the audience at home are going, you
33:17
should listen to Vicky because she knows what she's talking
33:19
about. And I wonder how what the
33:22
audience reaction was to to Stephen in comparison to to Ian
33:25
and Barbara, because he's quite hot headed and and impetuous and
33:32
certainly the first half of season 3, the reigns held.
33:35
So I don't, I don't think you know he lost anyone, but of
33:39
course he's proven right in a second when they find the
33:42
wristwatch. Yes.
33:43
You know, so he's like, oh, yeah, 1066, Is that all right?
33:49
That's really fun, though, because at this point we still
33:51
don't know. So we've got chalking up all
33:54
these mysteries. I think it's a really, I won't
34:00
say responsible, but that's too boring a word for something.
34:02
That's this fountain. It's a really engaging way of
34:05
telling a historian story in a different way.
34:07
Yeah. No, it's 11th century England,
34:14
actually. But there we are.
34:15
Oh, well done. Well done.
34:17
Sorry, that's it. That's I I don't know whether
34:21
that was a goof on his part or whether it was, you know,
34:25
something wrong in the script. The the bit I love in episode
34:29
one that makes me die every time.
34:31
It's his reaction when the gramophone slips, the groove and
34:34
the monks all go. Yeah.
34:39
Oh, it's great. It is great.
34:42
I mean, there's no real pace for this, is there like that's
34:45
that's probably the biggest sticking point.
34:48
I mean, it's because somebody said was yes, Jim Allenby said.
34:53
Was this the ideal story to show during the 90s repeat season?
34:59
I don't know what other stories would have been as as it's not
35:05
no, it's not action-packed. But I don't think it's slow.
35:09
It's, you know, it's we're almost to the end of the 25
35:12
minutes and it's gone quite, quite quickly I think because we
35:18
have had there is sort of three plots going on, isn't it?
35:22
You've got Stephen and Vicky with the traffic on this, him,
35:25
the Doctor figuring out where they are and no finding out
35:28
there's something suspicious going on at the monastery, and
35:30
then whatever the monk is up to. Yes.
35:34
Was he a big name already at this point then, Peter?
35:36
Butterworth he was very well known.
35:40
I mean we all know him from from as being the guy from the Carry
35:44
On films, but actually he hadn't done any of the carry ONS at
35:47
this point. His first Carry On film was
35:51
Carry On Cowboy, which was actually was filmed when this
35:57
was being shown in July 1965. So he was, he was sort of quite
36:02
well known as a comedian. He had a children's show, I
36:06
think it was called Butterworth Time or Butterworth's Progress
36:08
or something. And he'd been in films and I
36:13
mean he was not a huge film star, but he was sort of a well
36:18
known face he would have been is how hard no responds to him
36:23
because he working with him and those scenes in three and four
36:27
absolutely sizzle. But we know Hartnell if there's
36:30
like movie actors in like Max, Adrian and people like that from
36:33
the myth Makers, he got shitty with him, didn't they?
36:38
There was the rumor that he didn't feel comfortable working
36:41
with Max Hadrian. Because Max?
36:43
Max, Adrian Hadrian, Adrian, I think.
36:46
Adrian because he was, and I apologize for it, because he was
36:50
gay and Jewish and that his that's the that's the rumoured
36:54
reason why he didn't like. Working with with Max Adrian
36:59
more on O'Brien that she mentions that she mentions that
37:01
he was incredibly intolerant, that he racist.
37:05
They shouldn't even sexist. He was racist.
37:06
He was homophobic and all of those things that you probably
37:09
should expect from somebody in their mid to late 50s, in 1964,
37:15
five when it was, but but he did try and keep a lid on it and
37:23
like that he had a twinkle in his eye and she said look, I
37:27
know, I know he had. There were issues with him.
37:31
I really loved him like like he was a good man underneath all of
37:35
that boiling and prejudice that he was a nice bloke.
37:40
I can't really condemn him for that back in the 60s.
37:45
It was a different time and people had different ideals and
37:51
yeah, we've we've progressed. In certain ways, and I think
37:59
Without wants to make a political issue with it.
38:01
There are still some people who would want to push us back to
38:04
those times, but there we are. The line I draw under Hartno is
38:09
I don't think I would want to know him back then.
38:12
No, he'd probably be vile to me, but I will enjoy his
38:17
performances that he gave back then because absolute delight on
38:21
the screen, Yeah, and I can and I can do that.
38:24
I know some can't. I can.
38:27
OK. Well, yeah, sorry, that was a
38:30
very serious end to episode one. Did you want to because we had,
38:35
we've had some very good comments and questions I've
38:38
mentioned about Jim Allenby should we just finished with
38:40
another one because he he he did we say which which he said.
38:46
It's one of his favourites. Should the monk have returned in
38:49
the Daleks master plan or should he have been limited to one
38:52
story? Also, am I the only person who
38:54
feels sorry for him at the end of the story?
38:56
He's a cheeky monk, but I love his irresponsibility.
38:59
Well, I did reply to that Jim and say yes, he's so cheeky he
39:03
wants to machine, you know, blow up an entire Viking fleet with a
39:06
a neutronic cannon. But.
39:08
Apart from that? Yeah, very cheeky.
39:10
It's the fact that he writes his plans on our To Do List, You
39:14
know, to destroy Viking fleet. Yeah, you.
39:17
Can you imagine Susek doing that or Davros?
39:20
Oh, he's, I think he's. One Davros wouldn't be able.
39:22
He'd have to have no idea to pull the thing down, wouldn't
39:24
he? Because he probably yeah, God
39:26
wants to push it up too high. The the fact that he's going to
39:29
do something awful, he gets away with it because one, because of
39:32
the tone of the story. Yes.
39:34
Oh, because he's such a fun character.
39:37
Just want to be around him. Should he have appeared in
39:39
Darling Last Plan? Yes, because I don't think we
39:41
would have had all of these, you know, Big Finish and new
39:45
adventures and things like that because he would have just been
39:47
a one shot villain. Yes, I think the fact that he
39:51
came back again, that sort of enticed people enough to say,
39:54
well, why didn't they do even more down the line, sort of spin
39:58
off stories with him? Yeah, As for what other story
40:03
would be will be shown instead. I mean the Aztecs I think I
40:08
think they would have, they would have wanted to have stuck
40:10
with a four part story because I think 6 episodes black and white
40:14
would have been a bit too much. So possibly I mean they could
40:20
have shown the An Unearthly Child again, but that had just
40:22
come out on on video and I when I don't know about the Aztecs
40:27
whether that had been out on video.
40:29
If I was doing the schedules, it would have been the gunfires
40:32
just to annoy everybody. Well, I would have.
40:36
I would have loved to. Yeah, I would have.
40:39
I wouldn't wouldn't have been annoyed because I think it's
40:41
actually a lot better than than its reputation.
40:44
Actually, I'll tell you what probably would have been a A
40:46
savvy choice is the Ark, because the Ark's a big sort of bold
40:51
science fiction story. It's ambitious visuals and it's
40:56
also visuals that fail. And it moves at a lick because
40:59
there's effectively 2 two parters.
41:01
It is, yeah. Yeah.
41:02
But it doesn't really hang around long enough in anyone.
41:05
Time period to get boring, so I probably would have chosen that
41:07
one. OK, yeah, I can't think of any
41:10
other four part stories that all the war machines, but that's not
41:14
really very indicative of of Hartnell's era, is it?
41:18
No, it's another one that's got a bit of a pace to it.
41:20
And so actually, so is the Aztecs.
41:23
We've decided we're going to do a whole season of Hartnell
41:25
stories, every single 4 parter. What?
41:30
Even the Celestial Toymaker. Well, I didn't exist.
41:33
Did it? Or did it exist?
41:34
Oh no. That no it didn't.
41:35
No, no. Just had the last episode.
41:37
No. That Billy bumper character, Do
41:40
you remember if you step up? You'll be killed.
41:44
I'll tell you what.