Latest / In the Valley of Giants / The Italian Jewish Renaissance | Luca Spizzichino | ITVOG Ep. 11

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The Italian Jewish Renaissance | Luca Spizzichino | ITVOG Ep. 11 · In the Valley of Giants

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OK, so with pleasures today we have with us Luca Spiticino.
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I hope I pronounced that correctly.
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He is the president and head of communications of UGEI, the
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union of Italian Jews, students and young professionals.
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He's born in Rome, a freelance journalist and as social media
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manager and within UGEI, Luca has served in multiple
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leadership roles since 2018, including treasurer and director
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of Atikvah, the Eyes official magazine, which he helped
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modernize and expand digitally, which I think is very important.
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And you're elected president and 2024 and focus on its
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institutional relations, combating anti-Semitism,
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specially in academic environments and fostering
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Jewish identity and youth participation.
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So thank you so much, Luca, for having you here on the show
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today. And there's a lot of really
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exciting stuff I'd love to ask you.
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Yeah, thank you for asking me basically and can't wait to
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start this conversation actually.
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For sure, for sure. So number one, I want to just
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talk a little bit about life in Italy in general and you could.
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Tell me if it's a. Little bit different in Rome.
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So what is what is Jewish life in Italy versus, say, the rest
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of the world? It's hard for me to tell because
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I've only spent, you know, a month like here and there in
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Italy. You'll have to tell me.
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So we have to start from the beginning.
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So the Jewish community of Rome is the anxious one in the
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diaspora. So the first Jewish people that
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were based in Rome, it was from the Maccabees era.
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So from the Maccabees. So it's even before the Roman,
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the Roman Empire, actually, they were allies in the, in the
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moment, which was the highest point of the Greeks, the Jewish
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people. So the and the Romans were
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allies because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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So in from that from that, that period, then obviously we, we,
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we, we stayed in Rome since at that point.
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So there is like a joke in in Rome which we say that the real
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Romans are the Roman Jews because all the rest of the
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people actually are immigrants and we are in Rome based since
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2000 years ago. So it's quite strange.
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Also how different is the Jewish community of Rome from any other
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community around the world. Also talking about our tefilot,
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our also Minagim, we are Beneromi, we are not Ashkenazi,
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we are not safari, we are Beneromi.
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So we are from, we are the people that came from Israel to
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Rome and we started our own way and say to live our life, our
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Jewish life till now. And it is that entire stretch,
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which is a very significant period of time.
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I didn't know it went back that far.
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So that's very interesting. I'll have to look more details
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that up. Very fascinating.
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But I mean, look, we know about some tremendous Jewish history
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that's there. So when I was in, whenever I go
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to Rome, I like to visit the the Tempio de la Pacha, the Temple
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of Peace, because we know definitely without a doubt,
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because the Gemara tells us so, right, That the menorah and the
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tits and Calum of the base of Mikdash were there.
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The definitely Jewish history goes back quite a bit.
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So we knew that there were Tanayam already living there a
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little bit post destruction, which means there probably was
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before as well, obviously. But in terms of, let's say,
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modern, modern life, So what's the Jewish community like?
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Again, not necessarily just in Romo, though I do want to know
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that. But across Italy, you've been
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around the world a bit. So what would you say makes life
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in Italy distinct? So actually the Italian Jewish
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community is unorthodox Jewish community like in the written as
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Jewish Orthodox community in the end, like, you know, every
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single Jew has their own way to live his life.
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And so I can we can say this kind of traditionalist, even
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though looking at the Orthodox are hot.
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So we have obviously the pizza, all the the synagogue, all the
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services are in the Orthodox way.
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But obviously on the other side, the the Jewish community is the
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most of the community goes to the synagogue for the Hagim for
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reunite itself in the most important holiday, Jewish
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holidays and not so often to I don't know every single Shabbat.
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So but keeps culture at Mass at as much as we as we can.
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Basically now from not since like the last 25 years, there
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was a huge increasing of batteries, also kosher shops
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that in the past we hadn't. So also the community itself is
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starting to be more and more religious, keeps keeps kosher
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and also is also go to the synagogues very often looking
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also to the past. But in general, is is a very
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integrated community looking also to the to the other rest of
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the society is a very integrated community is inside also the
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commerce is also inside the society with also some Jewish
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people that are in the political sphere of the city.
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So is is like the, the Jewish community is part of Rome.
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It's not something separated, it's something that is inside
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Rome and it's as I said, as I said, it's very integrated to
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the with the society. Even though obviously in the
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last two years with the increasing of the anti-Semitism,
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the like the view from the from the other from the other side is
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not good as as it was years ago. Obviously in during the
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Holocaust Remembrance Day and all the dates that are from like
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the memory of our past, there are some like high peaks of
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anti-Semitism inside the city. But it's something that we are
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used to because also we are used to live in the gate for five for
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three, 300 years. It wasn't like not the
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anti-Semitic attack is not the worst thing that we placed
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through in our in our life, basically in the Jewish
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community. Well, in that increase of
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infrastructure over the last 25 years, is that due to tourism or
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do you think that's due to the growth of the internal telling
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Jewish community? It's mostly from, I think it's
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also thanks to the Libyan Jews that came from Tripoli and all
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the rest of the city after the 1967 war.
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So the Six Day War in which the, the old, the Jewish community
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from Libya was expelled by Gaddafi and went through Italy
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and also others in Italy, Rome especially, and also their city
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and to Israel. But a good number of Libyan Jews
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stayed in Rome. And this new community that went
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in Rome make also the city, the Jewish community more observant
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is also pushed on living the Jewish life as much as as much
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as we do so from also because basically we have to think about
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how was the Jewish community after the Second World War,
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World War. The Jewish community was from
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the best point that he has reached from which from when we
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were based in Rome. So we passed through the
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persecution from the Catholics after the killings of the
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killing of Jesus. And then we passed through the
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the Pope. And then the Pope decided to put
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us in the ghetto. And then we reached the the
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integration from from the salvoy family, from the royal family of
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Italy. They said the Jews are part of
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the Italians, the Italian people.
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And so we reached the highest point of integration between the
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society. And then came the fascist era
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and from the fascist era was persecuted.
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There were persecutions and also the deportation on the 16th in
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the 16th of October 1943, which more than one 1023 people were
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deported from Rome to Auschwitz and only 16 were basically we
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went back from the from the from the camp after the war, the
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Jewish committee was destroyed, was demolished by the Jewish
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shaded that he has to pass through during the show.
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And so I think one of the most important spiritual leader, and
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I would say also political leader that we had in the last
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century, Rav, wanted to rebuild the community from zero,
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basically. Yeah, to rebuild the community
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from zero and try to right, right.
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After the war like that. Was.
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Yeah, right after it was. It was Rav Pratos that was the
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chief Rabbi when also Israel was established and then he left the
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the role and the role was was gave to Rav Elitov.
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So in the was in like the the early 50s more or less and from
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the early 50s till the 2000, more or less, he was the chief
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rabbi of Rome was the most respected person that was in the
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Jewish community. The president of Italy, the
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presidents of Italy or every politician wanted to talk with
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him because he was a partisan during the war.
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So he was also part of the resistance during the war.
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And so he was a so much respected figure, not only
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spiritually because obviously he's the chief rabbi, but also
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because he was part of the resistance during the Second
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World War. So also politically he has a
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huge figure and he has he understood that he has to
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rebuild from zero that community.
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So obviously in the the 60's, the 70s and 80s, he has to close
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some highs, some from some points from also I would say
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from religiously, religiously point of view.
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But obviously in the when the basically their community was
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reconstructed, there is also the confirmation of our values of
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our thoughts. So from the 2000, since now
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there were an increasing, an increasing of because
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restaurants, kosher shops, supermarkets also from like a
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lot of meat base were built from like having only like one or two
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in some plane two places. Now there are basically 5 meat
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base meatballs in around Rome. So it's a huge increase in more
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than 15 synagogues in during the hike holidays.
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We reached also 1819 because they're also the huge families
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that are they say, OK, let's go all together.
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Basically we are like 20 people. We are we have Armenian.
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So let's have our own synagogue in somewhere.
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So it happens also like that. And so I think that the Jewish
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community has a moment which has to be reconstructed during the
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after the war. And when the Libyan Jews came,
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there was the moment, the moment in which also we have to change
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from like also looking to the traditions.
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It's not only being Jews only coming about our Russian kippur
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in the the main synagogue, but living your Jewish life also
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respecting the heart and the minogim and also especially the
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minogim that are something that is peculiar looking also to the
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rest of the of the of the safari.
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We have our our role rules like for example, like the most funny
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things is about of the hitting the lamp during Pesach.
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In the rest of the Jewish world, no one hits the lamp.
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I don't. Know what you're talking?
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About what are you? Yeah.
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So it was written ultimate mode that it was in that there was a
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discussion, I'm Mark Lockett talking about we have the Roman
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Jews can eat the lamb or not. There was this figure as a rabbi
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rich person that is also very, very influential.
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We don't know how influential and how in which money in which
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way he wanted to be influential. He said in Rome, we eat the
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lamb. And so the Sandrine, all the all
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the Hamim decided, OK, you can eat the lamb.
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So basically from from the the the Tammud era till now, we
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still eat the lamb, not obviously from the cedar plates,
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but cooked, but in general. So we have some peculiarities
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also from the rest of the of the Jewish world.
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We are the beneto me, something is like the see looking to, I
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don't know, like the TV series from Disney Channel, like the
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Hannah Montana, the best of the both worlds.
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It's more or less the same. Like there are some some some
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stuff that are coming from the the safari, some stuff that is
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coming from the Ashkenazim. And we look if you look at it,
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it's kind of kind of mix. There's some stuff that we can
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hear for. Those watching, so I was just
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there last month and the davening is super confusing.
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Not in a bad way. It's just unfamiliar like you're
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saying, because like it, it has like safari Ashkenazi and then
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also a totally separate feel to it.
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It really does. So it's it's a very unique
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experience. I'd encourage anyone you know
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who goes to Italy to definitely experience a pure Italian,
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especially a pure Roman you know, to feel it because it
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really is something. Yeah, yeah.
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Because it's so it's is that. Is that community though?
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Is that expanding? Meaning is is the Jewish
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community able to build AI? Don't understand that there was
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a big influx but you know, are religious people getting married
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and having kids and expanding? Staying.
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Or OK. So, but I'm away.
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So from this point of view, we have to to have to recognize
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that the Jewish community is part of Italy.
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So as we know that there is like a sort of demographic winter in
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Italy, we have to obviously looking at looking to our
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community and looking that there is a small democratic
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demographic winter also inside the community.
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Even though in the last few years we are, we are looking to
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a lot of marriages, a lot of weddings also from people that
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are quite young, between 11 to another because we have to we
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are not we are used in the past, we were used to like getting
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married like in the early 30s or like 3132 because we wanted to
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be completely independent from our family.
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Not being like, OK, I want to be my own family.
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In order to be my own family, I have to be independent, not that
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I have to. I can't ask for anything or any
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single thing. My mom and say mom, I need help.
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I need to cook. I don't stuff.
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No, you need to cook for yourself.
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If you wanted to start a family, it's your it's your turn to do
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so. Obviously they your family is
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always on your back and and helping you when you need, not
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every single day. So but in the in the past also
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people starting also work with the family.
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Also some wealthy families that they want to start very early to
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build a family. There is a sort of rowing of in
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term in term of weddings in term of in term of numbers of
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children like born that are born.
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I don't know exactly the numbers.
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It's a good in good increasing, but on the other way, there's a
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lot of our relatives that are dying due to the age.
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So it's like we are in balance basically, but in general so.
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If you're if you're in balance, so you don't think in terms of
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pop Jewish population, is the Jewish religious population
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expanding, staying the same or contracting you?
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Think, I think that is depends on the community I would say,
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because from the biggest, the biggest community, so Rome and
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Milan is kind of growing. But on the other way, we don't
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know if they are growing at all because you know how many Jews
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are leaving the room through the taxes that they are they pay to
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the to the community and some people from the political, some
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from some political views that are completely different from
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the actual leadership people decided not to pay the taxes.
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And so they are not inscribed in the in the community, but they
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are basically also electrically due.
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So it's there are some people that for political reasons are
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moving to the reform community because they are looking not
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good to the then they don't see good.
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They actually leave the ship also pass leadership.
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And so they are called the far Jews from the people that are
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too far from the community. And our job is to get back from,
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from what they are now to living and actually the, the community
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life again, like without, not, not without looking at the, at
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the political views of the actual leaderships or the
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leaderships that are ruling in ruling in, in the community.
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You have to live your Jewish life because you, you know, that
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is the, if you want to live your Jewish life, you need to stay in
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the community somehow. And so I would say this, but on
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the other hand, if the biggest community are increasing also,
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thanks to people that are moving from the small communities to
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the biggest to the big communities, the small
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communities are slowly, slowly dying.
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They are getting old, old and old.
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There are a few examples in which there are no men in him.
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And it happened, for example, the last event that was held by
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the future vice president of UJ from our union.
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He he organized this new project, this called No Sayor.
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So who brings the lights and who brings the light especially to
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the small communities in which there is no Jewish life in the
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synagogue in which is very difficult to reach the number of
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a minion. Also even counting all the
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communities around that small communities because they are
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small communities and one near to each other and even though
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those those one are very close to another is also very still
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difficult to reach a mignon. It happened that during these
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events, it was 3 Shabbat ago, he had the possibility to have
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mignon and also there was a bar mitzvah from a young guy of 20
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years old that never put the Cephalene.
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And so basically it happened also in this place to have also
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a bar mitzvah since like years, years ago, because they the
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average of the age from that from some communities over 60 /
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70. So it's slowly, slowly dying.
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What make the Snows community still alive is the Israeli
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students that are coming from Israel to study in our
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university. The Italian universities, for
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example, is a huge example from Ancona is in the middle of Italy
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in which the community is quite small.
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It's like 20-30 people and they're coming from Israel,
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around 25 Israeli students. But they don't most of the yeah,
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they literally cut out both the community.
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So even though some of them also are not they're not all only
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Jews, all Jews. There are also five Jews that
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came from Israel to to study in Israel, to study in Italy.
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And so it was quite funny that these are an increasing somehow
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in some small communities because the life, the cost of
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the life in those cities that are smaller is cheaper than Rome
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or Milan or even Florence in Turin.
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So they are moving those to those places, but in jail, you
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know, but. Italian blood is Jewish Italian
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blood getting bigger or not? That's my question.
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I would say no, it's I think it stay, it can stay in balance,
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but it's not growing. I would say, oh, if you what do
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you think that? Is why is it not growing?
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Because I think in general, because the lie, the living, the
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cost of the, the cost of the life in Italy, it doesn't help
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you in order to having breed a family very early.
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And so also having more children is not so easy.
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It's a, it's a sacrifice. So when you are ready to build a
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family, you build a family. If you think that you're still
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not ready to do so, you maybe you have, you can have a partner
20:50
for years, but you still not decide to getting married
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because the married, the wedding, it costs money.
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Also, maybe living together is maybe even easier because it's,
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it's especially the wedding and also having a baby that are the
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most important staff that you have to pay in that moment.
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Because if you have to want to live together with someone, you
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can because you split the split the cost.
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So you don't care. But on the other side, when you
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have to organize a wedding, it costs money.
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If you have to build a new family, the new baby, then
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childborn, it costs money. And so you it can't living, you
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can't live properly with a sum of money and having lots of baby
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when you're ready, you do the you you grow, you make you make
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you make friendly grow. And some cases is it is
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happening. In other cases we are we wait.
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I know of friends that are they stay together for like even 10
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years and they're getting, they would get, they get married like
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one year ago, 2 year ago. So it was a long, a long
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relationship that finished when they said, OK, we are ready.
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We can start. We can start to have our own
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home. We can start to having children.
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And now we can, we can live and start a family.
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Because before we can obviously say, yeah, yeah, I will.
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I will say I will build a new family, but we'll have my
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parents, right? That's no sense.
22:25
Right. Well, hold on.
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So let's so let's talk about that or at least expand that a
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little more. OK.
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So the in terms of blood level, maybe we're staying around the
22:32
same amount. But then you talked before about
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integration. So I don't you'd ask you a
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little bit about integration. So when you say integration,
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that means like in all aspects of work, people feel very, very
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comfortable in the workplace doing some sorts of jobs.
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So I would say that in, in general, yes, but there's also
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the other side of the metal in which we can, we can find work
22:58
whatever we want. But I have some, obviously some
23:01
workplaces in which living your Jewish life is not that easy.
23:05
For example, there is a law between the state and the Jewish
23:09
community in which we say which are the dates in which we have
23:14
not to work because the high is the high holidays.
23:17
There is limonium also Shabbat. But when you go in the end of
23:21
the at the end of the day, you have to go to work in a Jewish,
23:24
in not Jewish workplace. It's not so easy to having those
23:29
dates for you. So it's sometimes you have to
23:32
scale up from your, from your own holidays that you have for,
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for law, you have to, OK, take away one day, 2 days, three days
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because you have, we want to live your Jewish life properly,
23:46
like keeping more ads and it's not that easy.
23:50
So depends also from employer to employer if they are so open
23:56
minded or not. It happened that there was some
23:59
time, there were times in which we have to ask the chief rabbi
24:03
to help the employee to ask him for Yom Kippur because he has to
24:09
work. He was to do to work for Yom
24:12
Kippur during the young people they'll.
24:13
Threaten what? They'll threaten to fire you if
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you don't come in for Yom Kippur, and then you have to
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call the chief forever. I can get that Annoying.
24:19
No, it was like it was the like the worst moment because
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basically they close and I will say, OK, just took away from
24:27
your own holidays. It just took away one day is not
24:31
a tragedy. You can say, you say yes, but
24:35
you are not that happy. But you do.
24:37
So you do the same because obviously you want to give the,
24:40
you know, you want, you need to leave, you need money.
24:43
So if you want to, if you want to, you have to say, OK, I will
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take away from my own days one day for keeping mud and that's
24:51
it. But in general in the other
24:53
side, if you're living obviously in some Jewish workplaces as I
24:59
do, for example, they are, they don't ask me if I want to work
25:03
or not during the High Holidays. They they took for granted that
25:07
I want work. So depends also from employer to
25:11
employer if they are open minded or close minded, It depends.
25:15
But in general really we do whatever we want.
25:18
So if you want to do pizza, we're going to go to make pizza
25:22
somewhere. It's not a problem.
25:23
We all, we make our own pizza shop for us as we do also.
25:28
So that's some, but it's also in the Jewish quarter that is
25:33
cautious. It's very good.
25:33
It is very good. It is very good.
25:36
Yeah, it is very good. So well, how about in the
25:40
workplace? Aside from integration in terms
25:42
of being able to keep a job, how about anti-Semitism in the
25:45
professional workplace? I think it's not so problematic
25:50
has the living outside, like walking through the streets with
25:55
a kippah on your head or wearing the Magan.
25:58
David from this point of view is not that easy.
26:00
Depends on which which neighborhood you are staying or
26:04
you are working through. Obviously, if you're working
26:09
near the station, I can say cover yourself, put the put as a
26:13
baseball cap because it's not so sure for you walking through
26:19
watching that you are Jew in the workplace in the workplace is in
26:25
the ban of is depending on the ignorance of your colleagues.
26:29
Basically because it happened that few people will start
26:31
talking about the Israel Israel or Palestinian conflict and they
26:35
start thinking, ah, Israel is doing a genocide La La La La la.
26:40
But after that, there's no like real anti-Semitism from this
26:45
point of view. Inside the workplaces is more in
26:49
the on the streets and especially in the universities,
26:53
in the schools, really those are the most problematic.
26:57
Places Let's talk about the university for a second.
26:59
So I'll yeah so for the workplace, we're limited to
27:02
basically verbal anti-Semitism. OK, so let's talk about the
27:05
university. So are people getting if you go
27:07
in with a keeper, you'll get beat up.
27:09
Like what? To what degree?
27:10
I think the I think is that not so isn't we are used to not to
27:16
wear the kippah, showing our our kippah on some places,
27:20
especially in public places when you are alone.
27:23
And so it's the same for the university.
27:27
There are some in Iran people that say like they look at
27:31
kippah and say, ah, you're Israeli.
27:33
No, I'm a dragon Jew right now. So I don't even know.
27:37
I don't know even how is made rifle see when the, but it
27:43
happened that they recognize you as scientist only because you
27:47
are wearing Akipa or you are wearing Magan David.
27:51
So from this point of view, it's quite problematic because the
27:57
Italian people is still relevantly ignorant about what
28:03
is happening in the, in the Middle East.
28:06
What happened also to the Jews during the ghetto era and also
28:11
during the Shoah. They have, they know some stuff,
28:13
but not everything. And so, and also they didn't
28:17
have like the that process, for example, that the Germans did
28:23
after the Second World War, which they recognized their,
28:27
what they did wrongly and they, and then they decided to start a
28:32
new life looking that. But now, for example, for
28:37
example, that the Italians didn't count for of their past
28:42
or what they did during the fascist, fascist era and etc.
28:46
So they said, yeah, there was the fascist era, but didn't say
28:49
no, we made bad stuff during that period.
28:53
Instead the Germans did they recognize their own fault during
28:57
the after the Second World War and there's still mourning for
29:00
what they did, right? Yeah, right.
29:02
Instead the Italian Jews, the the Italian people still know
29:06
they are. They literally became anti
29:08
fascist in the moment the fascist regime fell down.
29:12
And we are the one who who said it.
29:15
But it was he said this person was a politician.
29:18
Italian politician said in Italy there were 660,000,000 Italians
29:26
that were fascist during the fascist regime and then became
29:30
and there were also sixty 60 million people that were anti
29:35
fascist. But in Italy we are 60 million
29:38
and not 120. So there is a problem.
29:40
There was like a sort sort of change from a way to another
29:44
from or being anti-Semitic or weak, indifferent about what is
29:49
happening, what was happening to the Jews during the Shoah and
29:53
then they move on. The fascist regime finished and
29:56
then they move on. They didn't count about about
29:59
their past, but they move on. And it it is a problem because
30:03
if you don't, if you don't, you don't recognize your errors
30:06
during the and also your fault during the part of the past, you
30:10
are condemned to repeat it. You can repeat it and it's
30:14
happening in the same way because there is like we
30:18
obviously there is a connection between Israel and the Jewish
30:21
people, but this connection doesn't mean that we, we are are
30:25
totally agree with the every single government that Israel
30:29
has or in general, we are not. We are not connected with the
30:33
government or with Israeli government at all.
30:36
We are not connected. We have our bond with Israel.
30:39
That is something deeper than looking to the state of Israel.
30:43
It's something that came from Dagada even in the air.
30:46
And when we finished the Agada, we say Ashana Babi Ruslan.
30:50
And we said that from thousand years ago, not from the, when
30:53
the, the, the Chinese was established.
30:56
So from this, from this point of view, I would say that honestly,
31:03
there is a lot of ignorance. There's a lot of calculation of
31:06
who are the Jews. They don't know who are the
31:08
Jews. And when they say a person that
31:10
is look is defending Israel because of we want to recognize
31:15
that Israel as direct of existing, they say, ah, you're a
31:19
scientist. But when you ask to them, but
31:21
you believe that Israel has that the Jewish people has the right
31:26
of all the determination, say, yeah, basically, yeah.
31:29
So you are a scientist. And they there is like a Oh no,
31:34
they they you destroyed, you destroyed their own, their own
31:39
castle made of cards in which they say, oh, no.
31:43
And now, but yeah, I think and from this point of view.
31:47
Is that is that, is that anti-Semitism?
31:49
Here are two questions. Is that anti-Semitism getting
31:51
worse? Like are things getting worse as
31:53
time goes on? That's question one and question
31:55
2. How do you respond to that?
31:56
Like, what's the way to combat that anti-Semitism, at least
31:59
normally? I think that is increasing.
32:02
The number says that in which in the last nine months we faced
32:07
766 cases of anti-Semitism, especially in the online world.
32:15
But it was a huge increasing of also real life incidents, also
32:20
aggressions, physical aggressions.
32:21
At least there were during the last nine months there were 9 or
32:26
1111 cases of aggression to Jews.
32:29
That is numbers that we never reached in years, even decades.
32:34
So it's something that is the anti-Semitism is a problem that
32:38
we need to face, but not alone. As I said, every single moment
32:42
which I go to the institution where I talk in the public, I
32:47
say that anti-Semitism is not a Jewish problem, is a problem of
32:54
the entire society, because it is the first sign that the
32:57
democracy is getting worse. That is something that is broken
33:02
in the mechanism of the of the Society of the democracy.
33:06
And so we have to be the the rising of anti-Semitism is a
33:10
warning of what is what would happen to the rest of the
33:14
society. The Jews are only the start.
33:17
When, when the Jews are attacked, it means that
33:20
something that is broken inside, inside our society, inside our
33:23
inside our society. The cohesion between the
33:26
communities. Because obviously the Italian
33:28
community is not been made only by only by Italians.
33:31
It's made also by the Catholics, from the Muslims, the Buddhists,
33:35
the Hinduists and the Jews. If we are not talking each
33:39
other, if there is a lot of frictions between the one
33:43
community to another, also the athletes, we can tell we can't
33:45
also them. If we're not talking to each
33:47
other, we don't recognize that there is a problem inside the
33:50
society. It would get worse.
33:53
And now we are seeing that this is getting we are getting worse
33:57
from this point of view as J. So fix that.
34:00
I think it's matters of time is a problem that we are facing
34:04
since centuries and we didn't fix it.
34:08
We try to control it like control it as much as we can.
34:12
Also with the help of the institutions.
34:14
In the past we hadn't those this possibility of having the help
34:17
of the institution. The police on try to block the
34:20
racing of anti-Semitism. Now we have.
34:22
We are lucky that we have. But one second, but that's but
34:25
that's like defense. But Luca, that's defense.
34:27
That's defense, meaning that's someone wants to attack the
34:30
Jewish community. So you have guards to protect
34:31
against them. But but what about what?
34:34
Like what about, look, if it's a dogma, if it's a dogmatic issue,
34:39
which is what it is in Italian society, it sounds like it's a,
34:41
it's a form of racism, right? So, So what?
34:45
And I would imagine in order to combat that, you'd need
34:47
something social, you need something public, you'd need
34:49
something changed in the education system, you need
34:51
something changed in the political system.
34:52
Are there any institutions or presentations or like is there
34:56
anything like, you know, a little bit more organized that's
34:58
more abstract, that's. Trying to.
35:00
Fix this issue. Yeah.
35:03
So together with the with Palazzo KG that is made like the
35:08
the office of the coordinator counting anti-Semitism, we renew
35:13
the strategy combating anti-Semitism.
35:16
It is not all the defensive, it's something it's more
35:19
proactive. What it mean that a lot of the
35:22
most of the fields that are part of the of the strategy is the
35:26
education that is multi level. It's it means starting like PhDs
35:32
researches inside the university, looking how
35:35
anti-Semitism is changed through the years.
35:37
So from the Catholic and anti Judaism arriving to the anti
35:41
Zionism that is the same way. It's the same thing.
35:44
If you look also how they push on some propaganda, nothing's
35:48
changed. And also education like start
35:51
starting to organize events of interfaith dialogue,
35:55
intercultural dialogue. And from this point of view, for
35:58
example, as Ujay, as the Italian students professional, we
36:04
establish a good connection with the Roma community and the Roma
36:08
community because they face the same aid that we faced also.
36:12
So as the, as, as the anti anti-Semitism exists, there is
36:18
also the anti zeganism exists. So it is the, the, the eight
36:22
against the Roma people. And so we try to make we make
36:26
this project together in which we recognize, we will try to
36:30
help the students because it was made in the universities to
36:34
recognize what is anti-Semitism and how it changed how what is
36:38
the anti zeconism and what and how it changed.
36:41
But not at all the most the most difficult to recognize is that
36:45
is the anti-Semitism because it's changing in a political
36:49
spectrum. And when it came to a political
36:51
spectrum, it get is it will be more difficult to to recognize
36:57
and that's our job to make people recognize that there is
37:00
that that as a virus, anti-Semitism is changing
37:04
itself. When when anti-Semitism
37:06
understands that some some some type of aid is now is not
37:11
working at all, you change it and it is changing to a
37:14
political sphere. And so it's very ambiguous to
37:17
attack because sometimes it's legitimate critic of the
37:21
government of Israel, but very often it it arrives to become to
37:26
critic Israel itself, the Jewish, the Jewish people,
37:28
Israeli. People, one of the things, one
37:31
of the things that you said I think does make a lot of sense
37:33
though, like targeting, targeting the next generation,
37:36
so young people when they're the most open and the most
37:39
impressionable. So in universities, being able
37:41
to offer lectures may be funded by the government and not funded
37:45
by the government or even classes talking about, you know,
37:48
oppression in the Jewish world. I think that these are great
37:50
ideas for for. The women like.
37:53
The Italian Jewish community could teach, you know, they're
37:56
they're not Jewish counterparts, exactly what it means to be a
37:59
Jew and and and why anti-Semitism is such a problem
38:02
and that interfaith dialogue ideas also, I think a fantastic
38:05
idea. Do you think that yeah.
38:07
Are there? Are there these sort of ideas
38:08
and programs in place? I've, Yeah.
38:11
So please, at the moment we have to recognize that the university
38:16
universities have a problem of censorship of a problem in which
38:21
there is no dialogue at all inside the universities.
38:24
If you want to organize a Jewish event or you want to organize a
38:28
Jewish lecture, let's say Jewish lecture, also interfaith
38:31
dialogue events, if there are Jews inside are recognizable
38:36
Jews inside or like, you know, the president of the union or
38:39
the vice president of the Italian Union, you need police,
38:42
you need the security, you can do it alone.
38:44
And these are huge problem. These are freedom of expression
38:47
that is lacking. And these are huge problem that
38:49
we are facing now and which we are and also we advocate for it
38:54
from from the for the freedom of expression.
38:56
We advocate since the the 8 of October when when you read my
39:00
bio and I will say, and I was also boots on the ground in the
39:06
universities. It means the reality in where I
39:09
we try to organize an event. So together with non Jewish
39:13
student association in one year and a one year and a half ago,
39:17
we wrote down a manifesto. It would offer the right of
39:20
study inside universities. It was a a manifesto conflict in
39:26
which we wrote that we are against the occupation, we are
39:28
against vandalism, we are we are for the freedom of expression
39:32
and we are against anti-Semitism.
39:34
We try to promote in every single universities talking with
39:38
the with the students association directly.
39:42
It was possible if we wanted to promote inside universities, it
39:45
was a problem because there, there were like the some fringe
39:49
fractions of the left side of the Students association.
39:54
They wanted that didn't want us to talk about it because it was
39:59
their own way to express their ideas through violence and we
40:03
were against them. It happened that we tried to.
40:05
We made at least three events in two different universities.
40:11
The first one, it was made in Milan.
40:14
In which was like the very beginning of how also this
40:18
manifesto was born in which we had the possibility to take the
40:23
rent, but together with like 30 policemen in front of the
40:27
entrance, 30 policemen not with civil clothes, with the with the
40:33
uniform. So it's what is, it's quite
40:35
different to the situation. And the second time, the 2nd and
40:38
the third time we tried to do it in Turin.
40:42
Turin. Now I define itself as a black
40:44
hole of the Israeli hate and the Jewish hate because there is no
40:48
control of the universities, of what is happening inside
40:51
universities. We tried to do twice the same
40:54
event in the same university in the same place.
40:57
The first time we had to change the title because saying that we
41:00
are were count against the anti-Semitism, we were against
41:05
the occupation. The vandalism was too divisive
41:08
and so we had to change the the title.
41:11
That is crazy. Exactly.
41:12
And we had to change the title. We but we change the title to
41:16
too late according also to the broker seat of the university.
41:19
So that from having the permission at the very
41:22
beginning, we discovered that we had no permission that the same
41:25
day which we from different from different cities, from Florence,
41:30
Rome and also Milan, we were moving to to Turin.
41:33
And during the trip with the train we discovered that you had
41:36
no permission. When we arrived the
41:39
universities, we never handed to the room.
41:41
In order to the South, we made also an information, we made
41:44
only an information point for the journalists expressing our
41:47
concerns about the freedom of expression.
41:49
And when we made the point of information for the journalists,
41:52
there was a demonstration of the so-called pro Palestinian
41:56
students that were wanted to go against us in front of us.
42:01
And they were around 300 people again against like 12-15 people
42:07
maximum. And but thank God in that moment
42:09
we were outside. So the police put like a border
42:12
between them and us. But when I when what everything
42:16
was was was finished, they would say, OK, thank you to the
42:20
journalist. And I went inside the university
42:23
alone without wearing a key Pallone.
42:25
I saw a poster which was written scientists outside from the
42:29
universities. We don't want the Chinese in the
42:31
universities. It was like at the face of the
42:34
freedom of expression of of being united, not not divisive.
42:39
They asked us to not to be in here.
42:40
And this is not divisive. And then I saw also a poster of
42:45
the counter demonstration against our event that didn't
42:49
have at the end of the day, we don't didn't do.
42:52
And they were they were using that red triangles of a mass,
42:58
you know, the targets that they put on the Israeli soldiers in
43:01
the propaganda video. OK.
43:03
Those triangles was put on our logos.
43:06
And it was like this. This is again, freedom of
43:09
expression or is terrorist apology.
43:12
Apology. Yeah.
43:13
So you want to use the same propaganda of the of a terrorist
43:17
organization and they've said nothing.
43:19
And so after two months, we say we tried again.
43:23
Too much though. Anti-Semitism is too much,
43:25
though. But but it never, it didn't
43:28
ended because we tried again to do this in the same place the
43:32
event we had the permission. But when we went inside the
43:35
room, there were 300 people occupying our room and tried to
43:39
break out our event. And in order to break out our
43:42
event, they started to also beat us to.
43:45
So there was literally not also verbal aggression but also
43:49
physical aggression. There is a picture of me in
43:52
which I was wearing the pins of the hostages and also the one
43:58
from the US against the anti-Semitism, the Blue Square
44:05
of the Santa Pag S8 I was wearing on my jacket.
44:08
There was this girl that is the head of far left slash Anarchy's
44:14
movement in Turin that removed from my jacket with the force
44:19
and he was literally pulled out on a screen from the journalist.
44:23
This journalist, I don't know who is that made he put on his
44:27
video. He recorded every single act of
44:30
violence of this person against us.
44:32
So we were basically we were beaten.
44:35
There was critical aggression and verbal aggression.
44:39
I don't want to say what was the police was when there was the
44:43
physical aggression of like from me putting the jacket from
44:47
removed my the pins from the jackets.
44:49
The police arrived and divided us from like 55 meters between
44:55
her and me, because actually they were afraid of me
44:59
responding to her, because if I just received the ACT I can then
45:04
answer without having any other repercussion.
45:07
If I have a response it will be problem for me, not for her.
45:12
So for having from a point of force in the like from from the
45:17
law, I was in a point of being again, if like from having my
45:22
rights on finishing having no rights because you responded
45:26
with violence. So they put me far away from her
45:29
hungry. I think I was more for like for
45:33
the rest of like 2 weeks, 3 weeks.
45:35
I was quite nervous about what happened because I was really
45:39
like modality. I was not I wasn't I wasn't
45:43
responding for to any single verbal aggression and also any
45:47
single physical aggression. And people still look at how did
45:51
you made possible to not answer to her to her in any way.
45:55
And I still don't know how maybe I understood that the situation
45:58
was for me it was good even though I was a victim in that
46:02
moment. But then I knew that I can't I
46:06
was able to use the use it in order to promote what I was
46:10
promoting till the moment with a manifesto.
46:12
You know, I said, I said we are against the the violence and you
46:17
made possible the violence. And I am the witness of that
46:20
violence. So from have being a victim, I
46:23
was using that, that card as you know, it's in my own way because
46:29
honestly, OK, I'm a victim. Yes, I'm I was a victim.
46:32
You made you made possible the censorship and you made possible
46:36
the physical aggression to another person, to another
46:39
Italian is not normal. But in the end of the day, what
46:42
happened is that they didn't have no answer from the no
46:47
repercussions from the universities only after one year
46:50
the place, but it's not a fail. No, no, actually for me was a
46:56
picture because. For me was a win.
47:00
It's. It's it's it's you're going to
47:01
tell me why, but I'm just saying like this, this is like, you
47:04
know, for lack of AI mean Charlie Kirk, you know, in
47:07
America. I mean, he is just an amazing
47:09
was an amazing guy. I what I said is what was you
47:12
know, he was violently murdered. Unfortunately, you know but.
47:17
But he. Did amazing stuff and and one of
47:19
the things that he did is he just really didn't care.
47:21
He just went and he spoke what he thought the truth was in face
47:25
of, you know, the opposite side really being very aggressive.
47:28
I think it's that voice, I think Italy having its own Charlie
47:31
Kirk moment, you know, in terms of of the thank God without
47:35
being barometer. Yes.
47:37
No. What's up?
47:40
Yeah. No.
47:41
Listen, listen. He but he has.
47:43
Such a His legacy is past his assassination.
47:45
People get assassinated and it's horrible.
47:47
I don't think people are going to remember Charlie Kirk because
47:49
the fact that he got assassinated, it's amazing.
47:51
When a person gets assassinated, you remember them for being
47:54
assassinated. You know, I feel like the first
47:56
thought that people have when they think about Charlie Kirk,
47:58
at least Americans definitely is.
47:59
They think about all the, all the amazing, you know,
48:02
information that he put out there and the really open and
48:05
fair debates that he have. I mean, if you've seen any of
48:07
the debates that he's had with people, I mean, people really
48:10
try to like make him upset and angry and insult him.
48:13
He has very open conversations. And I think that's one of the
48:16
reasons why he had such amazing effect, right.
48:18
So it sounds like Italy could really use a little bit of of
48:21
that, especially with the younger people, you know what I
48:23
mean? That's sort of that that
48:24
exposure doing these sort of events and and just sitting down
48:27
and talking to people that are young.
48:29
I think it's a great idea. Yeah, from this point of view.
48:32
I was saying to you. Is basically it was a win win
48:35
situation. If I was sense it was censorship
48:40
against me. I was winning because what I
48:43
wrote on a manifesto, it was the truth.
48:46
On the other way, if I have had the possibility to talk in that
48:50
event, it was a it was a win because basically the
48:54
distribution is changing inside university.
48:56
So maybe the manifesto put an importance to put up points in
49:03
that, in the public discourse on that matter and on that
49:06
situation and we made it possible.
49:08
Obviously it was at the end of the day, it ended with the
49:12
censorship, but actually it was a kind of turning point of the
49:17
situation inside university, inside universities.
49:20
Because after the those facts in Turin, it happened that there
49:25
was an A physical aggression to a non Jewish professor that was
49:28
against the boycotts of the Israel universities in Pisa.
49:32
He was beaten by those students, so-called Palestinian, pro
49:36
Palestinian students only because it was called
49:38
scientists. And then later few like 2 months
49:42
ago it happened that former member of the parliament that is
49:45
a Jewish is a Jewish person that is called Emmanuel Fiano.
49:49
He's the son of an Holocaust survivor.
49:51
So he has like the countering anti in his blood.
49:56
So he wanted to talk about Israel in the universities, but
50:01
not talking about Israel and being also close to the
50:05
government. No, he was very critic to the
50:10
Israeli government, to the government.
50:13
And even though he was critic to that government, he was labeled
50:17
as a sinus for, for those groups that basically are very
50:22
coordinated around Italy. He was labeled as a person that
50:25
has no right to talk in the public sphere.
50:28
And so they use, they were, they forgot the event, shouting
50:33
inside the room and also using some gestures that are coming
50:37
from the Italian 70s. This is like the P38 gesture.
50:42
This is like a pistol. And this gesture in Italy during
50:45
the 70s, it meant the attack of from the leftist terrorist
50:51
organization brigaderos, red Brigades to assassinate people
50:56
that are not good for those brigades.
50:59
So for those terrorists, So those, so those, those gestures
51:04
have consequences, had consequences in the past and
51:07
they are using now. And so it is this the solution
51:10
that we are facing now in Italy is a mix between 22 decades, the
51:15
70s with the internal terrorism that was rising.
51:19
And also the 80s in especially in the 82 during the Lebanon,
51:24
the Lebanon war in which there was a huge raising of
51:27
anti-Semitism in the Jewish world, especially, especially in
51:31
Italy. And this the climate of the 82
51:36
handed with the assassination of a child in the synagogue in the
51:40
ninth, in the 9th of October 1982, there was a terrorist
51:44
attack made by the Palestinian terrorist groups and with a
51:49
child of two years old that died during that terrorist attack.
51:54
And the same climate we have we faced that we faced in the 82 is
51:58
the more or less the same or even worse, together with the
52:02
internal friction of the 70s. So you can say that now we are
52:07
freezing in Italy a moment which is very unstable, that cool hand
52:13
and we don't know how it could hand.
52:15
Because thank God, there is the police and there is the
52:17
institution that are with us and they are understood that there
52:21
is a huge problem that indeed anti-Semitism is a security,
52:25
it's a national security problem.
52:27
So it's it's like facing anti terrorism, facing terrorism from
52:31
them. Oh yeah, the same level from
52:33
this, from from this way. Thank God there is a good
52:36
perception from the institution of the problem that we are
52:39
facing. It's not the same for the
52:41
society. Why?
52:42
If it's not against us, it's indifferent like in the 40s.
52:47
So we are living in times that is a mix of times, but not the
52:51
good times, worst times that we faced in the last century.
52:55
So it's it's a quite tough situation.
52:58
But with the truth that we are Israel now is still ongoing with
53:04
Gaza with a mass, the situation is I will say under control,
53:09
more stable. There is, there are some
53:11
anti-Semitic, anti-Semitic incidents, but not often than
53:16
the past, than the past months. It happens very sporadic,
53:20
sporadic correctly, but not so often.
53:25
Maybe at least like I would say once a month that is enough.
53:30
But it's not like the past months in which we had you like
53:35
major incidents. They do not like terrorists like
53:38
the Bondi Beach, something like aggression or very bad graffitis
53:43
or something like that, but were very, very common in the past
53:47
months. Now it's coming very sporadic.
53:49
So we know that it's part of flow that is still ongoing under
53:55
underground because it's, well, I'm happy.
53:58
I'm happy that it's stemming a little bit.
54:01
You know, at least, at least Yeah, it's.
54:03
I think it's under control, but I.
54:04
Got AI want to get one more question is that if that's.
54:06
All right, There's a question I got to ask you.
54:08
OK, So how about in Italy? Do you have like Tama Toros?
54:12
Do you have any issue vote? Is there any that are given cola
54:17
limb? But what do you have?
54:19
So we have cola limb, especially in Rome.
54:21
So I think there is two major polls in Italy of for the for
54:27
studying Torah, Rome and Milan. Rome is the center in which
54:31
basically all the rabbanim or the masculine are growing.
54:35
Because there is like this school, Jewish school is a kind
54:38
of a yeshiva kind of in which if you want to go, if you want to
54:42
be a rabbi or a mashgiyah or whatever you want, you have to
54:46
study in that school, a kind of university I would say that is
54:51
called, it's called collage labinigo.
54:53
It was like, but it's in the end of the day, that kind of
54:56
yeshiva. It's not like the yeshiva that
54:58
we know in Israel or even the US that is 100% of the time
55:03
starting, starting, starting is you go there when you have the
55:07
free time or especially during the weekend, you go to
55:10
especially, I don't know, in during Sunday, you go to the
55:14
this where to this place in order to study, in order to take
55:18
in the end of the course, you take the exam and yeah, when you
55:22
finish the exam, you have the title of Rabbi or Muskil.
55:27
The days for us is or Muskil. At the moment we have a lot of
55:32
Muskilim and there are people that are thinking about coming
55:35
Hakamim Surabhim. So but in general there is also
55:40
I think at least two or three Colonym inside.
55:43
Also a beta midrash in in Rome, basically the Kolela, the beta
55:48
midrash. The beta midrash is in the same
55:50
place. So they have all the different
55:52
days of which they are open for them or to the others.
55:56
So that is that is in a Senegal called but Michael also Michael,
56:04
it was the Jewish name of the child that was murdered in the
56:07
1982. And so they take in memory of
56:10
him. They built in memory of him a
56:13
synagogue. I think it's one of the I would
56:17
say part of, you know, inside the inside the community in that
56:22
place. We have like once a week or once
56:25
every two weeks an event or trial lesson held by Basque of
56:33
the same age of me, so of 30/30/31.
56:36
It is that it has those trial lessons with for all the people
56:41
to get that is completed free and also the food is completed
56:45
free. But in general it has also more
56:47
moments during the week, like what 2 twice a week or three
56:51
times a week a week in which the the Kolel in that place is open
56:56
and they met with rush for the rest of the of the week.
56:59
So one point for I don't know Monday, Monday, Wednesday and
57:04
and Sunday it's for the men and and I don't know Tuesday,
57:08
Thursday and is for the for the women.
57:12
Obviously it depends on the number of the people that are
57:13
coming. Basically, usually it's during
57:16
the after the after work is an after work moment for for the
57:21
most for most of the people. And the same is in Milan, but in
57:24
Milan is also very is more religious, I would say if you
57:30
compare it to Rome from Rome or Milan or or anywhere else in
57:34
Italy. Do any of them ever study in
57:36
Israel, you know, after high school?
57:37
Yes, Yeah, I think that. Especially from Milan, a lot of
57:43
young Jewish students are moving to inside in order to study.
57:47
If not in the Technion or in the Nachman University or Tel Aviv
57:51
University, they are going to get Shiva.
57:55
OK, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Manja,
57:57
because. Also in Milan is a really strong
58:00
Lubavitch community, Chabad community and also the Persians
58:04
and the Lebanese community that is quite, it's more religious
58:06
than the Roman Italian community in general.
58:10
So they are very. For them it's even easier to go
58:13
to study the issues in general. Also from some people from the
58:19
like Collegium in Rome, I go in to study for two weeks, one
58:22
month in Israel in the Yeshua especially I think in Yeshua
58:26
Takodel. What my best friend he was he
58:32
went like 6 months starting or even I hear don't remember.
58:35
I think I hear he started for a year in Yeshua Takodel.
58:41
Then he went back and basically he was, he went back having like
58:47
half of the exams already did in Israel because it was faster.
58:52
He was completely under 100%. We focused on starting.
58:57
So yeah, it was faster for him to also to also finish the rest
59:01
of exam. So he has a mindset that was put
59:04
inside the issue and he brought in Italy.
59:07
And so for him was also even faster to do the rest of exam.
59:12
So, and it was the same also for the the other guy that now does
59:15
less than every single every, every every Tuesday.
59:20
This guy went to Israel for two years.
59:23
One year was for yeshiva, the college, so literally inside
59:26
the, the yeshiva. And then the second year was for
59:30
volunteering the IDF because yeshiva, the college is very
59:33
close to having like your, your, your way, your path inside the
59:37
yeshiva. The college is like study,
59:39
study, study. You have time for the and you go
59:44
back to study and finish your studies and become a rabbi.
59:47
So it's very, I think also from my point of view, it's something
59:53
that is also cool. It's also good because you
59:57
became part in that integrated part of the society and not
1:00:01
something that is. External you, you don't
1:00:03
recognize the rest of your society as your society.
1:00:06
Then the other way you say, my life is focused on starting to
1:00:09
run, but the other way in, on the other way also saving the
1:00:13
life of, of the Jewish people is to run somehow.
1:00:16
And so you go to serve for the IDF.
1:00:19
And again then you finish your, your year, your way back and you
1:00:23
finish the study and take your, your title.
1:00:25
So I think it's something that is useful also because it's
1:00:29
like, it's like a good connection that we have to we're
1:00:32
catching. Yeah, right, Luca.
1:00:34
Unfortunately, we've run out of time.
1:00:36
I want to thank you so much for joining us on the show.
1:00:38
You really shared so much beautiful experiences with us.
1:00:41
I hope I certainly learned a lot.
1:00:42
I'm sure our viewers did as well.
1:00:44
I just wanted to say keep on, keep on truckin.
1:00:46
I think that that idea of again, especially in terms of combating
1:00:49
anti-Semitism of information out there to the masses.
1:00:52
I think I, I know, I mean you personally got attacked.
1:00:55
Okay, so I know it's very easy for me to say cuz I'm sitting
1:00:58
over here, but keep going. You're doing amazing work.
1:01:01
You're doing God's work. Akash Bravo should bless you.
1:01:03
Keep on going. Thank you.
1:01:05
I think you're really doing important.
1:01:07
Stuff over there so. Thank you so much for your time.
1:01:08
Thank you for asking me again and.
1:01:11
Hope to see you soon. Sounds good.
1:01:12
Take care. Thank you.