Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 42 - Does Jesus Make You Lucky?

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Ep. 42 - Does Jesus Make You Lucky? · Martyr's Row

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  This week on Martyrs Row. Is being lucky anti
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  -christian? Is the angel of the Lord just the
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  pre -incarnate Jesus? Is matcha just ground up
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  grass? Holy cow! Is Wonder Bread the whitest
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  bread? Who are you guys? No toques mi banana!
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  Three, two, one! Saint Lucy, a virgin of Syracuse,
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  in the days of Diocletian, devoted herself wholly
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  unto Christ, distributing her goods to the poor
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  and vowing her chastity to the Lord. Being accused
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  by a rejected suitor as a Christian, she was
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  brought before the governor and commanded to
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  sacrifice to the idols, but she answered that
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  no fire could move her, whose heart burned already
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  with the love of God. They sought to drag her
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  to a house of shame, yet by the power of Christ
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  she stood immovable. Enraged, they heaped torments
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  upon her, and at last thrust a sword through
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  her throat, whereupon she commended her spirit
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  unto God. Thus fell this steadfast Christian,
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  whose purity confounded her persecutors, and
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  whose light, chewed to her name, shine is still
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  among the saints. Anno Domini 304. Hey guys.
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  Welcome to Martyrs Row. We've got more people
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  here. We do. What happened? I don't know. We
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  grew. We multiplied. Good job. Following the
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  first mitzvah. Be fruitful and multiply. That's
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  right. I almost slurred that. We're a men of
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  action. I wouldn't go that far. Okay, so yeah,
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  so this episode of Martyrs Row is the first time
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  that we've had other people other than Paul and
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  I. Yeah. It's hard to get people here at 4 a
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  .m. It's crazy. It just is. It doesn't seem like
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  it should be that hard. What do you mean? Like
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  what are they doing it for him? Let's just ignore
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  that they're here So our friends are here to
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  join us tonight and in this episode We have prepared
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  nothing like we normally do we just ask random
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  questions and we Begin to educate on those questions
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  just off the top of our heads. Yeah Right? Yeah.
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  But in this episode, we're not going to ask the
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  questions they are. So how about we just introduce
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  everybody? Yeah. That way, if somebody's listening,
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  they can go, oh, that's that person's voice.
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  That'd be good. And they'll be like, that person
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  introduced themselves. And then I never heard
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  their voice again. That's because we muted them.
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  So, Paul, let's start next to you. So. Say your
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  name. What's your name? Rayna. And what do you
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  do? I'm a student. Nice. That's so cool. A student
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  of what? Music education. Nice. So do you educate
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  the music or does it educate you? Well both.
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  Nice. We'll see. We'll see. So and next to you?
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  Chloe. And Chloe, what's your favorite sport?
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  Tennis. Tennis? oh my gosh that's so judgy i
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  just thought it was going to be a different sport
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  what did you think it was going to be well i
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  can't say it now you can so tennis is your favorite
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  sport this is my favorite did you play it competitively
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  i played it i wasn't you play it competitively
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  but you didn't play it competitively yes okay
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  are you sure i played to win but i just didn't
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  win very much fair enough so you played competitively
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  Yeah, but not competitive play. Okay. Yeah wasn't
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  like I was trying to like go be a tennis all
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  star She didn't play What are you good at Chloe?
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  Oh Yeah, I already talked hi, I'm Tiffany What's
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  your favorite color Tiffany ooh green easy easy
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  really Besties specific kind of green I'd say
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  I feel like we're not gonna agree on he already
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  said you agree. Well, we're probably gonna disagree
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  now, right? I'd say It's like matcha green Matcha
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  green. Yeah, like throw up. Yeah, I was about
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  to say. That is incredibly rude. Lime green.
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  I love matcha. Be careful. It's not quite lime.
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  No, it's like a earth. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know
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  if you mean earthy green. See, but I don't talk.
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  It's like grass green. I don't talk that high.
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  Grass green. Grass green, exactly earth. Yeah.
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  Earth is brown. So it's an earthy tone. Okay,
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  I mean it color but earthy is green an earthy
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  tone. Yeah, I think a dark green so I'm not the
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  green you're talking about It's a matcha green
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  Going back to the question my favorite color
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  is green And my name is Tiffany hi Do you like
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  it I do how do you drink it iced or hot? Uh,
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  I usually drink it hot. Okay, good. I don't.
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  Okay, good. That's great for you. Yeah, you enjoy
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  it? Yeah. Does it taste like grass? Yeah, very
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  much. So when you start, when you start. When
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  you start. But when you get into the habit, when
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  you get addicted. Yeah, yeah, I know. When you
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  begin macha. It kind of is like a journey. You
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  start and you're like... That's kind of gross.
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  Is it similar to yoga? When you begin matcha?
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  Yeah. It's a journey. I couldn't tell you. It
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  is. It is. I remember my first experience with
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  matcha behind the school building. That's usually
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  how it goes. That's usually how it goes. Like,
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  hey, have you ever tried some matcha? No. You
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  walk into a coffee shop and you're like, I should
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  stop drinking coffee. And you have a matcha.
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  And you're like, that's kind of gross. I should
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  do it again. Yeah. Because coffee stains your
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  teeth. But matcha also does, but it's green.
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  I don't think, I don't, well... When you matcha
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  as hard as I do. How hard do you matcha? I think
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  Paul's the pro on this now. I actually am not.
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  I just talk too much. Hey, same. And who's next
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  to you? Hi Tiffany. Hi Tiffany. Okay, going on.
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  Who's next to you? Hi, I'm Jack. Hi, Jack. Hi,
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  Jack. And I was there for Paul's 30th birthday.
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  That's true. When he turned 30. Yeah, which he
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  is no longer. No. Well. You're 40? Yes. Yeah,
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  you go from 30 to 40. Oof, I'm scared. That's
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  how it works, yeah. After you hit 18, it just
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  jumps decades. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. It's true.
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  I didn't hear about that one. You will. I didn't
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  agree. When you become 18. Yes, yes. You know,
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  I would just like to say great job on your first
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  guest episode being so diverse. What? For two
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  guys who are - You're done it! I'm just saying.
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  We've had so much to the table! I said, what
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  does that mean? What? A lot of different matcha
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  drinks this year. Explain what you're talking
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  about. Well, like, you guys are white. Yeah.
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  How dare you? This? I'm Italian. I'm just saying
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  in Central Florida. He is Irish. I'm really Slovenian.
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  No, no, totally. I'm just saying in Central Florida.
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  No, Paul, you're Irish. That's right. You somehow
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  found four people who aren't white. What? We
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  somehow found four people that are not white.
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  It got on the same couch. She's saying, like,
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  good job. never thought i didn't mean to yeah
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  it was an accident we'll do it differently next
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  time don't worry i knew there was a reason why
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  we next time only white people you cracked the
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  coat jacket job Say it into the mic. They can't
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  hear you. Do we get a check for that? Tell them
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  what you are. I'm just kidding. Actually, yeah,
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  let's get back to the line. What are you? What
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  are you? It's like episode 42. Please look into
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  the camera and say I am a DEI guest This is not
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  gonna become six different podcasts, but it could
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  Yeah, we're all having like different conversations
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  all at the same time This is gonna be really
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  overwhelming Is it? I'm overstimulated You're
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  in the room It's a lot for 4am 359 Anything's
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  a lot for 4am Except for sleeping I do enjoy
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  that That can be a lot too sometimes I don't
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  think about it What about matcha at 4am? Only
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  when I'm talking That's good Well, we're glad
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  you guys are here Yeah Happy to be here No, you're
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  not white. Thank you for being I'm really thank
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  you for listening Also for all the guests or
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  all the guests all the listeners that are not
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  watching yeah, they're very confused. Oh Right.
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  Oh cuz we probably sound white. Oh, I don't know
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  Don't say that. We said nothing. I didn't even
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  bring it up. I'm not sure what we're talking
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  about, Paul. I just like to stir the pot. It's
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  OK. And that's why you're last on the couch.
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  The melting pot. This is going to be a short
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  episode. They're going to mute our mics right
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  now. Boop. No, we might get in trouble for that
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  now. This is all going to get cut. You're right.
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  The opening segment is just gonna be Paul and
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  I's mics on. And then in post, just make, in
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  post just evaporate. No, every time it's just
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  silence. Every time you say DEI, DEI, DEI. And
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  we'll just, we'll just pretend like, like eliminate
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  this whole couch. in the next segment. I want
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  just a giant loaf of Wonder Bread. That's a good
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  idea. Wonder Bread. White bread. The whitest
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  bread ever. It's a wonder how white they made
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  it. I wanted to fall right on your head now.
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  I'm making more work for myself. So then, the
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  whole rest of this episode, you're gonna see
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  Paul and I just deliriously talking to a loaf
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  of Wonder Bread. And you're not gonna get the
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  whole other side of the conversation. Yeah, but
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  it was good. Yeah. The Wonder Bread really knows
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  how to talk. So get ready to talk to some bread.
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  Three, two, one. On the first day of martyrdom,
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  the people chose to kill Stephen the Martyr with
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  rocks On the second day of martyrdom, the people
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  chose to kill James the Great and Stephen the
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  Martyr with rocks On the third day of martyrdom,
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  the people chose to kill Philip in the face James
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  the Great and Stephen the Martyr with rocks On
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  the fourth day of martyrdom, the people chose
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  to kill Matthew and his stack. Philip in the
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  face, James the Great, and Stephen the Mortar
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  with rocks. On the fifth day of martyrdom, the
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  people chose to kill James the Great. What? James
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  the Great and Stephen the Mortar with rocks.
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  On the sixth day of martyrdom, the people chose
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  to kill, but died as substitutes. James Douglas!
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  Matthew and his stacks, Philip in the face, James
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  the great, and Stephen the martyr with rocks.
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  On the seventh day of martyrdom, the people chose
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  to kill, and their son of 70, but died as substitutes.
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  James Douglas! Matthew and his stacks, Philip
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  in the face, James the great, and Stephen the
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  martyr with rocks. Matthew and his sacks, Philip
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  in the face, James the Great, and Steve in the
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  mortar with rocks. On the eighth day of martyrdom,
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  the people chose to kill. Mark who wrote for
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  Peter, elder son of Zod, even the highest substitute,
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  James the Last. Matthew and his sacks, Philip
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  in the face, James the Great, and Steve in the
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  mortar with rocks. On the ninth day of On the
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  tenth day of martyrdom the people chose to kill
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  Paul, who killed Stephen? Peter is the Rock!
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  What a new road for Peter! In your son of 70,
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  die a substitute! James Valance! Matthew and
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  his tacks, Philip in the face, James the Great,
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  and Stephen the Martyr with Rock! Three, two,
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  one! Well, hey guys! Hey! So, uh... Who wants
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  to start? I think Chloe does. Chloe does. Chloe,
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  do you have a question for us? Sure. Is there
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  a set up for the question? No. Do you want to
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  just make one up? Sure. And to be fair, there's
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  a good chance that we don't actually have a good
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  answer for this. I think you guys do. You think
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  we do? Yeah, I'm expecting you guys to. Well,
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  let's try and answer it really bad. That actually
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  makes me more nervous. No, you're built for this.
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  I think you guys are set up. Okay, go for it.
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  Do you think... Wait, hang on. Go ahead and just
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  make up a setup as if it's an organic thing that
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  you're just gonna ask a question. Because one
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  of the things we like to do is pretend like we
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  didn't pre plan a question Yeah, and the question
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  is not the title of the episode So just like
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  just make something up and then just ask the
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  question So build some setup Just tell us like
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  I don't know like the Yankees won the World Series.
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  Yeah, and when they did I thought about It's
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  actually a great setup Or maybe Chicago Cubs,
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  yeah, right. Yeah This person hit a shot and
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  it hit the net and then it rolled over and I
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  was like wow that was really lucky and then they
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  were like as Christians you can't say good luck
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  or like luck isn't a thing how rude What are
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  your thoughts? Oh, you heard Stevens. He's very
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  rude. How rude. Yeah. But also like, um, what
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  a weird thing to just like say on a pickle pop
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  course. The good luck or that you can't say it?
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  No, just like, because your response was good
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  luck. No, sorry not good luck I said that was
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  like that was lucky that was lucky because it
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  like hit the net and then it rolled over and
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  they were like You're no longer a Christian.
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  I mean probably no That's a little unfair they're
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  just like we can't say good luck as Christian
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  that's not okay and I was like Okay, so you didn't
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  lose your salvation So reminds me. Okay. Yeah
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  No, actually, it's a short thing. Are you gonna
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  do your Irish accent? I could Please do must
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  We'll get canceled again Please cancel us. No,
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  I I someone said holy cow once okay. Oh, you
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  can't say that is that only God's holy I was
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  like, oh Dang really going far with that. Well,
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  I mean to be fair The who called Jesus good and
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  he was like Why you call me good only the Heavenly
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  Father is good. Yeah, so I mean close Holy Cow.
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  It's pretty close. Yeah, but I mean at the same
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  time India Yeah cows. Yeah are sacred. So fair
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  enough. Were you in India? I wasn't no, okay,
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  then not valid. No It doesn't make sense. Okay,
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  so luck. What are your thoughts Chloe? I was
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  thinking about how I feel like luck is, well,
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  their premise of why it was bad was that they're
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  saying, do you think God made this pickleball
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  go on the other side of the net? And I was saying
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  that, me saying that was lucky is not me saying
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  that God made the ball go to the other side of
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  the net. Like, I just think sometimes things
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  happen and it's like, it just happens. And I
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  think you just say it's lucky or something. Yeah.
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  So origins of luck. Maybe if you think something's
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  happening because of something else, but then
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  I think that's the problem not that you said
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  something so like Calvinism No, I so so fair
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  that because that's kind of where my head was
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  going Yeah, so like like where the actions predestined
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  to happen is everything the ball was predestined
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  Yeah, but there's a there's actually another
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  so that would be more in the in lines of salvation
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  as far as predestination goes But when it comes
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  to like determinism There's another concept in
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  the ancient world about everything that we experience
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  was already laid out. We're just experiencing
• 18:50
  the creation unfolding. So nothing we're doing
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  is affecting anything. It was all already going
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  to happen and it's all unfolding all at once.
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  But that's not really a Christian ideal. It's
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  not even really a Jewish ideal. It's more so
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  like a like maybe it's like Celtic or something
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  like that. It's just one of those things where
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  it's like, that's not, it's more like a philosophy
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  rather than a religious or theological thought.
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  But I guess like the idea of luck. Did you guys
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  just stop playing pickleball altogether? I'm
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  just confused as to like, why does this, why
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  is this such a big deal right in the middle of
• 19:30
  a pickleball game? I think it's because I said
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  what I said and it was, well I don't know if
• 19:33
  it was the end. Was it the last straw? Was that
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  like the 10th thing you had said that night?
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  I think you were there. I was there and we had
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  this conversation like. I feel like it had been
• 19:42
  like a repetitive thing. Like someone saying
• 19:44
  luck and it was like, you can't say that. And
• 19:45
  then I was like, okay, wait, hold on. Okay, so
• 19:47
  they were fed up with you. I don't know if the
• 19:50
  situation was like angry. It was more or so like,
• 19:54
  well you can't say that. Oh, that's fun. Yeah,
• 19:56
  yeah. Did they have a good reason for it? I mean,
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  we were on a pickleball court, so there wasn't
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  a lot of time. I don't remember if they were
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  losing. When you express the idea that if you
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  follow Christ or if you are a Christian, then
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  saying that something is lucky is taking it out
• 20:13
  of the hands of God, that anything that happens
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  to you is either by God or by what? That would
• 20:21
  be my question. So things that happen in the
• 20:24
  world, are they happening because of a being?
• 20:28
  Are they happening because of other spaces? Or
• 20:32
  are they just randomly happening? Like, where
• 20:35
  does that interplay? I'm not sure. I guess I
• 20:37
  would just, yeah, like, do you think everything
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  happens because, like, do you think God moved
• 20:41
  the pickleball because, like, that's what was
• 20:43
  supposed to happen? Or do you think they're just
• 20:44
  a little windy that day? How much would win a
• 20:49
  peck affect a pickleball? Quite a bit. Like,
• 20:53
  a lot. Really? Have you played pickleball? I
• 20:55
  haven't. That's really sad. Is it a... It's very
• 20:58
  holy. No, actually, it's not. Cows are the holy
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  ones. So let's start with that. Isn't it a wiffle
• 21:10
  ball? Well, I've never played it. It's a pickle
• 21:12
  ball. It's like a big ping pong with lots of
• 21:15
  holes in it. Right? Because it's like, literally,
• 21:18
  you can drop a pickle ball and the wind will
• 21:21
  just like blow it away. Like it's just gone.
• 21:24
  OK, that's interesting. Yeah. It's really hard
• 21:26
  to play when it's windy. Yeah Yeah, paul thoughts
• 21:29
  a lot of thoughts. Okay um, so i'm gonna give
• 21:34
  it my Very abstract paul answer and then steven's
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  gonna make it make sense. Okay Well, I think
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  because the way I think about it with We take
• 21:42
  the idea of luck is what do we do with god's
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  sovereignty? Especially when we go into like
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  outside of the realm of salvation talk and just
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  every single day I think there's um the definition
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  that I hear a lot of people say when it comes
• 21:56
  to like the sovereignty of God is like oh he's
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  in control of all things and controls all things
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  and it's like well yes but also what does sovereignty
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  actually mean and so when I think about that
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  in when we use it to refer to like a human king
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  it's like oh he's the sovereign of this nation
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  it's like well it doesn't mean he can make everyone
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  do what he wants them to do sure because then
• 22:18
  no one would revolt right unless that's what
• 22:20
  they want I guess But it's mostly it's like,
• 22:25
  oh they have the right to rule over the region
• 22:27
  They've been given the right to rule over and
• 22:29
  I think that's the same thing with God sovereignty
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  is He has the right to rule over his earth, but
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  he doesn't control every everybody's individual
• 22:38
  actions. He doesn't control everything because
• 22:41
  I also think that minimizes God's power then
• 22:43
  Paul, what would you say to the The Hobby Lobby
• 22:47
  sign that God is in the details Well, I think
• 22:50
  he is or the country music sign. I think it's
• 22:52
  it Both country music song. I it's probably a
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  hobby. Yeah Or like 90s girl pop song God is
• 23:00
  in the details. Yeah, it's got to be one of those
• 23:02
  right CCM. So yeah, we were alive for the 90s.
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  Yeah But yeah, so what you're saying is like
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  God's sovereignty is more in the large the larger
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  themes and the larger things going on versus
• 23:22
  the individual details of, like, this person
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  rode this horse at this time on that day. Like,
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  is that what you're saying? No, because I think
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  He's in those things as well. Okay. But it's
• 23:33
  not like He's making those things happen. Sure.
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  Because I think when we say that God makes things
• 23:38
  happen, we're saying that He cheats. It's like
• 23:41
  oh he he can choose when to remove our free will
• 23:43
  and be like no I want you to do this so you go
• 23:45
  do this I think actually Jonah's a great example
• 23:47
  of this too where it's like He has God's been
• 23:51
  given him. God gave him an order. He's a prophet.
• 23:54
  So he's he's on God's payroll and God says hey,
• 23:58
  I want you to go to Nineveh. He's like not doing
• 24:00
  it So then he runs away and God says actually
• 24:03
  I want you to go back and so that's when he sends
• 24:06
  this crazy storm and then Jonah makes a decision.
• 24:11
  Yeah. And so I think those are kind of the details
• 24:15
  that God's in. Whereas Jonah still could have
• 24:18
  chosen not to go. Sure, but if Jonah made a paper
• 24:22
  airplane while he was on the boat and threw it,
• 24:24
  did God decide which direction that was going
• 24:26
  to go? I think that's more so what she's asking.
• 24:29
  That's fair, yeah. And in that case, I would
• 24:31
  say no. Well, there's your simple answer. Don't
• 24:39
  say lucky. Remember, we're Christians here. Are
• 24:42
  we not allowed to say it? Not allowed to say
• 24:45
  it at all? There's the question, can we as Christians
• 24:47
  say good luck? Or that was lucky? So Jack, respond.
• 24:52
  Okay, so this stuff is happening to Jonah. Jonah's
• 24:57
  like, ah, I'm so unlucky. That's not in my statement.
• 25:03
  I was just like just like this Well, no, he wouldn't
• 25:07
  have said that okay, but like if he did Okay,
• 25:10
  like what about job if the job was just like
• 25:13
  oh, I'm just experiencing Or like I'm unlucky
• 25:19
  Hold on. Hold on. I'm gonna get there. No. No,
• 25:22
  it makes sense like applying that phrase Right
• 25:25
  to what's happening to you, even if God is indirectly
• 25:29
  doing it to you. Yeah, and that's like yeah i
• 25:32
  understand what you're saying and and this is
• 25:34
  something that like as americans we do a lot
• 25:36
  which is parallel something like uh like job
• 25:42
  losing his everything he has to losing a pickleball
• 25:47
  game right right because like we have very similar
• 25:52
  yeah but it but it's that it's it's the idea
• 25:56
  that like so so the difference would be Jonah
• 25:59
  wouldn't have necessarily been like, I'm unlucky.
• 26:03
  We have an account that basically shows us that
• 26:07
  Jonah knew he was in active disobedience of God.
• 26:10
  So if you're in active disobedience of God and
• 26:12
  the effects of that result in a bad day, I don't
• 26:17
  think your response would be, I'm unlucky. It
• 26:18
  would be, I'm disobedient. And this is the judgment
• 26:22
  I'm reaping, right? Or these are the effects
• 26:24
  of my disobedience. And that would be a little
• 26:27
  bit different. And that would also be like, well,
• 26:30
  if someone is unlucky, if you said, oh, that's
• 26:33
  an unlucky shot, well, then in a parallel way,
• 26:37
  if you're saying you can't say that, would it
• 26:39
  be also, would it be, would the replacement be,
• 26:44
  oh, I was disobedient today? Do you know what
• 26:47
  I mean? Because then that would result in a bad
• 26:49
  shot. Because I'm not in perfect alignment with
• 26:52
  God's will. Every single detail therefore the
• 26:55
  shot that I wanted to make I couldn't make in
• 26:57
  the pickleball game Like that would be the level
• 27:01
  that you'd kind of be getting to but to be fair
• 27:04
  Here's what I would say. Yeah to be fair and
• 27:08
  you jump back into your predestination But to
• 27:13
  those my segue to be fair what I what I would
• 27:16
  what I would also say is I think that There are
• 27:20
  triggering things for us So I think that there
• 27:22
  are things that are difficult for us to fully
• 27:25
  wrap our head around, and there's language that
• 27:27
  we feel like we can or can't use based off of
• 27:30
  where we come from and what traditions we're
• 27:33
  a part of and things like that. So with something
• 27:35
  like luck, obviously, historically, that would
• 27:40
  be culturally Irish. That's why we look to Paul.
• 27:45
  But in that way, it's like, well, is there cultic
• 27:49
  or Celtic traditions that are more religious
• 27:52
  that where luck, like the luck of the Irish or
• 27:57
  the luck of an individual is actually more religious
• 27:59
  based? So meaning like, what is the origin of
• 28:03
  luck? And I think that does go back to more Celtic
• 28:07
  roots, which would be leaving life up to fate.
• 28:12
  And leaving life up to fate is not putting your
• 28:16
  life in the hands of God. And putting your life
• 28:21
  in the hands of God is more secure in a Christian
• 28:26
  standpoint, meaning things don't just happen
• 28:28
  for no reason. But at the same time, as a Christian,
• 28:32
  you don't know every reason why everything is
• 28:34
  happening. So it can be perceived as lucky or
• 28:37
  unlucky. it's just the language that you're using
• 28:41
  is not necessary, it's more Celtic than it is
• 28:46
  Christian. And so it might just be like, maybe
• 28:48
  use Christian language, but in that, what is
• 28:52
  the Christian language for that? I think it's
• 28:54
  fine to say unlucky. I think so. But at the same
• 28:57
  time, I think in general, if someone is derailing
• 29:01
  a pickleball game, to get after you about...
• 29:06
  But one of the things that Paul and I do say
• 29:08
  all the time is like if somebody brings a question
• 29:09
  up to you or mentions something like that, then
• 29:13
  it actually is a big deal to them. And if it's
• 29:16
  a big deal to them, then it should be a big deal
• 29:18
  to us in the moment. So if something like the
• 29:23
  idea of like not doing something so that your
• 29:26
  brother would stumble or your sister would stumble.
• 29:32
  then it's that idea of like, if somebody brings
• 29:34
  up a question or if something bothers them that
• 29:37
  you say, then that could be a stumbling block
• 29:39
  for them. That could be a trigger. On the other
• 29:43
  side, so being sympathetic to the individual,
• 29:45
  but on the other side, it could also be an individual's
• 29:50
  need to judge and control what's going on. And
• 29:55
  that's not up for us to judge if another person
• 29:58
  is being judgmental. Does that make sense? Yeah,
• 30:03
  so mainly to me does it make sense? So I don't
• 30:09
  know I think I'd be sympathetic to both sides
• 30:11
  and I think one of the things that Paul and I've
• 30:14
  talked about a lot is there are things that just
• 30:15
  really don't matter like if someone if it really
• 30:19
  matters to somebody that You say or don't say
• 30:22
  lucky or unlucky then I would just recommend
• 30:27
  not saying it around them and then Whatever it
• 30:31
  means to you, it means to you if it's a religious
• 30:34
  statement you're making then I would caution
• 30:36
  you Yeah, I mean cuz that's that's what you're
• 30:41
  pulling out is the the language in the cultural
• 30:43
  history of what you're saying, right? Where does
• 30:45
  it where does it come from? Yeah But then there's
• 30:48
  a difference between like where does it come
• 30:49
  from? What does it mean where it's like when
• 30:51
  people say? that was lucky like you've been saying
• 30:53
  it's like well no one's thinking of oh it's back
• 30:56
  to the Celtic roots of or of like leaving up
• 30:59
  to the fates to decide what's happening sure
• 31:01
  say well that's not culturally how we use that
• 31:04
  word yeah but historically that would be where
• 31:07
  it came from yeah so it's kind of like that weird
• 31:10
  mix of like maybe someone else has a different
• 31:12
  background everyone has their own backgrounds
• 31:14
  and where they came from so certain things hit
• 31:16
  people differently based on their understanding,
• 31:19
  their experiential understanding of certain phrases
• 31:21
  and words. Yeah, because that's where there's
• 31:24
  discernment. And how, like, what do I choose
• 31:26
  to say and how do I choose to say it? Yeah, I
• 31:28
  mean, if their ancestors are Celtic, then they
• 31:31
  could have, like, come out of that tradition.
• 31:35
  And like I said, like, to kind of clarify, like,
• 31:37
  that's where the luck root would come from would
• 31:39
  be leaving life up to fate. And statements of
• 31:44
  like, things like Like it's similar and parallel
• 31:50
  to saying something like The I don't know if
• 31:55
  you get if so I I play golf I don't play pickleball
• 31:59
  But I know a lot of people who play both all
• 32:02
  the holes are filled in your ball They didn't
• 32:06
  make it all the way through they're just dimples
• 32:08
  They tried they're like yeah defective. It's
• 32:12
  too hard of a ball no, but so like Typically
• 32:16
  if you hit a bad shot or something, it's like
• 32:18
  the golf gods are against me today It's like
• 32:21
  that like that's a funny like phrase that people
• 32:23
  say I actually do caution myself on not saying
• 32:27
  something like that I don't have a problem with
• 32:28
  somebody saying it, but I don't personally say
• 32:32
  that Because I'm a little in some ways. I'm like,
• 32:36
  well, there are actual god. I don't know if there
• 32:39
  are gods Like lowercase g beings that are dictating
• 32:44
  individual sports that would be an interesting
• 32:49
  episode if there are if there are lower Elohim
• 32:59
  that are dictating sports it would definitely
• 33:02
  be European football yeah yeah and they have
• 33:05
  way too much time on their hands if they're Yeah,
• 33:13
  but yeah, so I think in that way, it's like you
• 33:17
  kind of lean in like luck comes from this tradition
• 33:20
  of other gods and leaving your life up to fate
• 33:24
  in the same way that like Shakespeare would talk
• 33:26
  about that. It's like that concept of like leaving
• 33:29
  your life up to fate, whatever happens, happens
• 33:31
  type of thing versus like a Christian would say,
• 33:34
  well, my life is in the hands of God. It's like,
• 33:37
  okay, that is a true statement. But like, To
• 33:41
  be fair, the heart of what you're saying is not
• 33:44
  how the person received it. So it's a miscommunication
• 33:49
  of a triggering word for somebody else. So I
• 33:53
  would say as a Christian walking in love and
• 33:55
  kindness, assuming the best in others, you would
• 33:57
  just kind of go like, I'll try to be careful
• 33:59
  not to say that around this person because that
• 34:01
  might be something that's like, you know, I can
• 34:04
  be considerate of them and not saying this. You
• 34:06
  know what I mean? Well, it's interesting even
• 34:08
  the idea of um the phrase like leaving it to
• 34:11
  the fates to decide yeah it's like like you said
• 34:14
  it's like well we would say well i'm gonna let
• 34:16
  god decide i'll leave it to god that's the christian
• 34:18
  vernacular for it and uh it's it's interesting
• 34:22
  because i think even with um scripture we kind
• 34:24
  of see that played out um in when after judas
• 34:29
  was out of there and they're like we need we
• 34:33
  need we need to replace him so they're like okay
• 34:35
  let's figure out who we're going to get and there's
• 34:36
  a couple picks but we can't decide who to pick.
• 34:39
  So they're like, okay, let's cast lots and let
• 34:41
  God decide who the next guy is going to be, which
• 34:43
  is Matthias. Yeah. Our old boy Matthias. Yeah,
• 34:47
  to fill in the 12 disciples. Yeah. Yeah. And
• 34:50
  it's like, oh, well, aren't they just leaving
• 34:53
  it up to fate? It's like, well, culturally around
• 34:56
  the other people, they would say that. But as
• 34:58
  Christians, they're like, no, we've done our
• 35:00
  best here. Now we're going to let God decide
• 35:01
  this. And this is the only way we can think of
• 35:03
  how to do that. Yeah. So in some ways, you could
• 35:06
  say, Actually, maybe not. Have we hit Matthias?
• 35:12
  Only a martyr reading on him. That's what I mean.
• 35:15
  Yeah, I think we have. So then, I don't know
• 35:18
  if he was lucky or unlucky becoming the 12th
• 35:20
  disciple based on how he died. Just brutally
• 35:23
  murdered. Yeah. But you could kind of say that.
• 35:29
  And that's why I think when you look at casting
• 35:33
  lots and when you look at things like who's the
• 35:36
  guy that... put a fleece out. What's his name?
• 35:39
  Gideon. Gideon. So, like, you look at that type
• 35:41
  of stuff and I think as New Testament Christians,
• 35:45
  which are there Old Testament Christians? I mean,
• 35:49
  technically, yes, but also no. Explain that.
• 35:52
  What's an Old Testament Christian? The one that
• 35:54
  looked forward to Christ? Well, then they're
• 35:57
  not a Christian, because the point is, like,
• 36:00
  you believe in Christ. But did Christ not exist
• 36:03
  before the Incarnation? Now there's the episode
• 36:08
  So I'm gonna love my question That actually is
• 36:15
  interesting like Gentiles looking towards the
• 36:18
  coming of the Jewish Messiah as Old Testament
• 36:22
  Christians But a Christian would be someone who
• 36:26
  follows Jesus not necessarily someone who looks
• 36:29
  forward to his first coming. Yeah So like the
• 36:33
  discrepancy of that. I haven't actually thought
• 36:35
  about that. Because you could actually say we
• 36:37
  have examples of individuals in the Bible, in
• 36:41
  the Old Testament that show up in the New Testament,
• 36:44
  and they follow the tradition that Daniel leaves
• 36:47
  for them in Babylon, which results in the wise
• 36:50
  men who are looking for the sign of the Savior
• 36:53
  of the Jewish people. And Daniel would have called
• 36:57
  him the Savior of the world, but to them he was
• 37:01
  He was the savior of the Jews. Right. So that's
• 37:05
  even interesting to think about. Yeah. It's like
• 37:07
  they weren't necessarily coming to worship the
• 37:10
  savior of the world, but more so coming to give
• 37:13
  honor to the new king of the Jews. Yeah. So more
• 37:16
  of the king of the region, which is what he ends
• 37:18
  up being before he pawns his pilot. Like, king
• 37:23
  of the Jews, writes that over. So it's prophetic
• 37:25
  of that, which is kind of cool. Yeah. But yeah.
• 37:29
  Yeah. So... I guess those are, I guess the Magi
• 37:32
  are Old Testament Christians? They're the first
• 37:37
  Old Testament Christians? Yeah. Do you guys have
• 37:40
  any other thoughts on luck? Yes? No? Maybe? Do
• 37:44
  it verbally. In your microphone, I just like
• 37:48
  to think up here. Okay thinking usually does
• 37:51
  start in the brain. Yeah The only thing I was
• 38:02
  thinking of Because I feel like with luck the
• 38:04
  other thing that always I hear is like there's
• 38:07
  no this no such thing as coincidences Okay. Yeah,
• 38:11
  and so just that thought along with the luck
• 38:13
  argument. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
• 38:16
  no such thing as coincidences. I think it is
• 38:20
  interesting because the Bible does talk about
• 38:22
  like knowing the hairs on your head knew you
• 38:25
  before like as you were being formed in your
• 38:27
  mother's womb. It's like that idea that the creator
• 38:31
  God Yahweh is actually knows everything down
• 38:34
  to the smallest piece and the largest thing.
• 38:38
  Which is profound in the sense that like scientifically,
• 38:42
  we haven't gotten to the smallest point of creation,
• 38:45
  nor have we gotten to the end or the expanse
• 38:48
  of the universe. So like, it's infinite both
• 38:51
  directions. But yet God knows where it starts
• 38:56
  and where it ends, which ironically is with Him.
• 39:00
  So that's the interesting piece. So like, then
• 39:05
  if every action is laid out or things don't happen
• 39:08
  to you for a reason, it's interesting to function
• 39:11
  in that it's a little bit like um like when you're
• 39:15
  driving you can't exactly look at the road you
• 39:18
  have to look up ahead of you and then when you
• 39:21
  look up ahead of you you end up driving in a
• 39:23
  straight line but if you look down at the road
• 39:25
  then you're going to be reacting really quickly
• 39:27
  to every little turn and curve right so like
• 39:31
  in that way when you're um when you're living
• 39:35
  your life if you are actively conscious about
• 39:40
  the idea that nothing is a mistake, then it would
• 39:44
  be a little bit like living your life looking
• 39:46
  down at the road while you're driving versus
• 39:48
  looking up. So I'm not sure how beneficial that
• 39:51
  is of a thought. Whether it's philosophically
• 39:55
  true or not, I'm not sure, to be honest. Yeah,
• 40:00
  I think it's one of those where... Actually,
• 40:04
  I'll share one of my favorite Chinese proverbs.
• 40:07
  Love this one. Um, so I might have said this
• 40:11
  I've said this a lot So you might have heard
• 40:13
  it we'll go for it. Look I'm gonna go for it.
• 40:16
  All right, here I go No, so goes like this there's
• 40:20
  a farmer who lives in the small village and one
• 40:24
  day one of his horses runs away Well, the townspeople
• 40:30
  said the same thing they're like, oh what terrible
• 40:32
  luck your horse ran away. Oh, no crazy, right?
• 40:39
  Holy horse is dangerous. Holy horse Well, then
• 40:46
  yeah, so then the farmer responds well, maybe
• 40:48
  it is maybe it's not we'll see wait wait, what's
• 40:51
  the setup again? He lost his horse. We got lost
• 40:53
  with the holy cow. Okay. The horse got lost.
• 40:56
  Ran away. All these town people are like, dude,
• 40:59
  that's bad luck. That's what I was looking for.
• 41:03
  There's the word. Key word. Trigger word. Uh
• 41:07
  oh. And he says, oh, maybe it is, maybe it's
• 41:09
  not. We'll see. Well, a few days later, his horse
• 41:13
  comes back to him, and with him, he brings another
• 41:15
  horse. And all the townspeople come back out
• 41:18
  and they're like, oh, what good luck. Your horse
• 41:20
  came back and it brought another horse with it.
• 41:23
  And he says, well, maybe it is. Maybe it's not.
• 41:25
  We'll see. Well, his son is trying to break in
• 41:28
  the new horse and the horse bucks the sun off
• 41:30
  and he falls and he breaks his leg. The townspeople
• 41:33
  come back out. They just have nothing better
• 41:35
  to do. And they're just like, oh, your son fell
• 41:38
  and broke his leg. They don't have TV. That's
• 41:40
  bad luck. That's their show. I also thought you
• 41:44
  were going to say he died. Oh no, he didn't die.
• 41:46
  I'm glad you had a broken leg. Well, it works
• 41:48
  for the next part. And he says, well maybe it
• 41:52
  is, maybe it's not. We'll find out. Well then,
• 41:55
  a week later, the military comes out and they're
• 41:59
  doing a mandatory draft for all eligible young
• 42:01
  men to join the military. And his son isn't eligible
• 42:04
  because his leg's broken. Right. And the townspeople
• 42:06
  are like, what good luck. Your son doesn't have
• 42:09
  to join the military now. And he says, maybe
• 42:11
  it is, maybe it's not, we'll see. And I think
• 42:13
  the point with that is, in the granular, like
• 42:17
  when we're staring at the road, we don't know
• 42:18
  what is good and what isn't good. But in the
• 42:21
  grand scheme of things, we see, oh, there is
• 42:23
  a through line here. And if we're following the
• 42:27
  path that God has called us to follow, we're
• 42:30
  gonna start to see that line. But we're probably
• 42:33
  not gonna see it today. But we might see it ten
• 42:36
  years from now. We might see it a week from now.
• 42:38
  And so I think that's where the idea of luck
• 42:40
  and coincidences kind of come to a head where
• 42:43
  we don't actually know what is good and what
• 42:45
  isn't good in the small minutiae of every single
• 42:48
  day, all the time. Yeah. That just kind of connects
• 42:51
  to faith of just knowing that God is in control
• 42:55
  and that we trust in Him. Yeah. That's cool.
• 43:00
  So would you say like those are more like present
• 43:02
  tense terms like you would say like oh that was
• 43:04
  lucky or that was a coincidence but then if you
• 43:06
  look back five years from then you're like oh
• 43:09
  now I look back and I'm like that wasn't luck
• 43:11
  that wasn't coincidence that was because God
• 43:13
  yeah talk loud yeah okay so you just say like
• 43:21
  saying those phrases are more present tense terms
• 43:24
  and like you wouldn't say that like look back
• 43:26
  and like yeah that was lucky that that happened
• 43:28
  that my leg was broken and I didn't get drafted.
• 43:33
  Yeah because you might see like oh the pickleball
• 43:35
  went over there like oh that's good luck and
• 43:37
  it's like well actually it's not because now
• 43:39
  they're losing or now you're winning you know
• 43:42
  who knows. Yeah or now I'm having this conversation
• 43:44
  about luck instead of playing pickleball. Now
• 43:48
  I'm not playing anymore. Yeah but at the same
• 43:51
  time like I think when you when you look at um
• 43:53
  the maybe it is maybe it isn't it's like that
• 43:56
  simple idea It's still, I understand, like, the
• 44:00
  hesitation and the origins of the language in
• 44:04
  different things like that, because leaving it
• 44:06
  up to fate or leaving it up to faith, like, that
• 44:09
  type of thing, like, I get it, I get the separation
• 44:12
  of that. But also, like, in some ways, when you
• 44:16
  look back on your life, you could say, I've had
• 44:20
  a lucky life. That's not typically something
• 44:22
  you would hear a Christian say. And that's kind
• 44:25
  of what you're saying is like that seems to be
• 44:27
  something you would use more in the present tense
• 44:29
  But other people would actually use that in a
• 44:32
  big picture thing or Fate has been good to me,
• 44:36
  right? Yeah that type of thing or or or like
• 44:40
  this is like, you know, like leave it up to fate
• 44:43
  like I think of that old Oh, what's his name?
• 44:49
  It's that it's the the old -school rom -com it's
• 44:54
  called serendipity but anyways it's like she
• 44:59
  she writes her number down in a book yes on the
• 45:03
  five dollar bill that's the first one and then
• 45:06
  she writes her name in a book and then goes and
• 45:08
  sells the book to a secondhand table yeah and
• 45:11
  then it's like if you find if you eventually
• 45:14
  find the book then we'll leave it up to fate
• 45:17
  whether or not we get together or not right So
• 45:21
  like that type of thing is like leaving it up
• 45:23
  to a higher power and in that sense fate or luck
• 45:26
  becomes something that you're putting in a an
• 45:29
  acknowledgement of a Something larger going on
• 45:34
  right? Yeah, which would then point to like a
• 45:37
  Pauline language of Spiritual realm that there's
• 45:40
  things going on that we can't see And so in that
• 45:43
  way luck and fate end up being something that
• 45:46
  that is in control of the larger story and not
• 45:51
  referencing God. So in that way, I can be sympathetic
• 45:54
  to that. But yeah, but it's like when you stub
• 45:58
  your toe, what do you say? It's like, I don't
• 46:00
  know if that's determining your whole life. Right,
• 46:06
  does, I guess the question would be when you
• 46:10
  stub your toe, what you say, does that determine
• 46:12
  what your heart, what the condition of your heart
• 46:14
  is or does it not? Right? I mean, I think there
• 46:24
  was a time in my life where I would say it absolutely
• 46:26
  does. You could tell somebody's really Christian
• 46:28
  by what they say when they stub their toe. I
• 46:32
  think the grace of God is a little bit more expensive
• 46:34
  than that. Thank God for that. Yeah. Cool. So
• 46:40
  luck. That's an interesting one. That was good.
• 46:43
  Yeah. A little bit of myth. A lucky first question.
• 46:46
  Yeah. I don't know if you can say that. Are you
• 46:49
  a Christian? Are you saved? Maybe it is. We might
• 46:52
  get banned after this. Canceled. Yeah. Well,
• 46:56
  good luck for your next question. We're looking
• 46:57
  forward to a controversy. Is it not? Whoa. Is
• 47:03
  that not what you wanted us to say? Uh -oh. Maybe
• 47:07
  it is. Maybe it's not. We'll see. Who knows?
• 47:11
  All right. So next question. Thoughts? Thoughts?
• 47:16
  Questions? Who's up? Go for it. Oh, is it my
• 47:21
  turn? Is that why we're looking at you? Okay.
• 47:24
  Did you want to go last? No, I mean, we can go
• 47:27
  now. I don't know how long this conversation
• 47:28
  is going to be, but we can just go. They know
• 47:31
  we don't. Right. We'll see. Right. Okay. So I
• 47:37
  was thinking about something. Okay. That's good.
• 47:39
  And I got to collect all my thoughts in my head
• 47:41
  real quick. Does it have to do with luck? No.
• 47:43
  Okay. Not at all. Um, and I was thinking about
• 47:46
  the story in Genesis, the entire creation story,
• 47:52
  the entire creation story, entire creation story.
• 47:54
  Okay. And specifically I was thinking about when
• 47:59
  it talked about how God walked with Adam and
• 48:03
  how God killed the animal and used the skins
• 48:08
  For their clothing, okay, right and I was thinking
• 48:13
  and I'm like well So these are two different
• 48:16
  parts, but yeah going yes Yeah, but I'm just
• 48:19
  saying like isn't it almost fair to say and this
• 48:23
  isn't the question Okay, isn't it fair to say
• 48:26
  like well couldn't that have just been Jesus
• 48:30
  like Come down because like I just like I always
• 48:34
  thought of as like God from the heavens walking
• 48:38
  with Adam Sure, you're talking about like in
• 48:42
  you're talking about framing it in reference
• 48:44
  to the Trinity. Yes, like Yahweh Jesus the Holy
• 48:48
  Spirit and it's like when it says God walked
• 48:50
  with Adam it was more so Jesus in the garden,
• 48:56
  okay So so I was thinking about that and then
• 48:59
  it got me thinking about Something I think is
• 49:02
  so interesting that I learned At an offhand Christian
• 49:07
  concert, okay, and I wish everybody talked about
• 49:10
  this but like so I Just think it's so interesting
• 49:15
  that Jesus is this character that just shows
• 49:18
  up halfway through and it's just the most important
• 49:22
  Then everybody's like, okay. Well, the entire
• 49:25
  Bible is all about Jesus So my question is where
• 49:29
  was Jesus? What was Jesus doing during the Old
• 49:32
  Testament? I do like this question. Yeah. Yeah,
• 49:37
  and I mean go for it Yeah, yeah and like I set
• 49:41
  it up with the idea in the garden you don't have
• 49:43
  to talk about that cuz I was just like an offhand
• 49:45
  thought Yeah, you know, yeah, cuz you're you're
• 49:46
  going which we do this all the time is like in
• 49:49
  the conversations It's like well, what does Genesis
• 49:51
  say like go back to the beginning of the whole
• 49:53
  story in the setup? Because the plot of the Bible
• 49:57
  is not Matthew. It's Genesis, right? so it's
• 50:01
  like yeah, and like also something I've been
• 50:03
  thinking about is whenever Whenever the Trinity
• 50:10
  says to create man in our image, I mean, could
• 50:16
  it be possible the human image of Jesus was like
• 50:19
  there? And then they're like, oh, humans look
• 50:24
  like Jesus. Yeah. So you're presupposing that
• 50:29
  the, let us make man in our image is a statement
• 50:32
  by the Trinity. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So that's
• 50:36
  a whole different podcast. That is, that's a
• 50:38
  whole conversation. A lot of thoughts here, but
• 50:41
  you know, just, yeah. That I particularly probably
• 50:44
  wouldn't go in that direction with original language.
• 50:48
  That that's a Trinity conversation. Okay. Which
• 50:52
  that's a highly debated verse too. For sure.
• 50:54
  Yeah. And depending on what translation you're
• 50:56
  looking at, it's actually translated very differently
• 51:00
  in particularly things like the RSV. which would
• 51:04
  be the Catholic, like the Revised Standard Version,
• 51:07
  which also explains like in Genesis 1 in the
• 51:11
  RSV, it would talk about God created wild beasts
• 51:15
  and beings and the wild sea monsters is what
• 51:22
  the RSV says in Genesis 1. But yeah, so where
• 51:27
  is Jesus in the Old Testament? That's your first
• 51:32
  question. What was he doing? What was Jesus doing?
• 51:35
  Was he just up there chilling? That's a good
• 51:38
  question. He was like, it's my time now. He's
• 51:39
  like, now it's time. Or was he not born yet?
• 51:42
  Yeah, and I ask it this way because I know what
• 51:49
  I want you to say. And I'll respond. Do you wanna
• 51:54
  tell us what you want us to say? Before we respond?
• 51:57
  No, no, no. Just continue. I feel like I'm gonna
• 51:59
  disappoint him now. We can have a little back
• 52:01
  and forth. No, I think that's an interesting
• 52:04
  idea. No, one of my favorite ways to explore
• 52:08
  this question is with another question. Shoot.
• 52:11
  Like The Great Man Jesus used to do. The Great
• 52:16
  Man Jesus. The Great Man Jesus. You should write
• 52:19
  it. That sounds like a good song right there.
• 52:22
  great man jesus and the big man upstairs that's
• 52:28
  for worship music in like 10 years hey your kids
• 52:32
  are gonna love unless it comes back around i
• 52:33
  don't know or like classic 60s pre jesus jesus
• 52:38
  is a friend of mine yeah but yeah so what's jesus
• 52:42
  doing in the old testament paul so um here's
• 52:46
  here's how i like to explore this idea and it's
• 52:48
  with the question who led israel out of egypt
• 52:52
  Hmm who delivered Israel out of Egypt and so
• 52:56
  it seems like a simple question simple answer
• 53:00
  That stuttering fool The homeless man alive What's
• 53:17
  they get the humblest man alive? Yes. Yeah Until
• 53:20
  it's like hey speak to that rocks. I'm gonna
• 53:22
  hit it I'm gonna hit it That's how we talked
• 53:27
  Well, you got to go to the original language
• 53:29
  to get it Apostrophes yeah And so Where we see
• 53:38
  in different at different points and I can't
• 53:40
  think of the references off top my head But in
• 53:43
  different places to have the Old Testament we
• 53:45
  see different characters of the trinity taking
• 53:49
  credit for taking them out of egypt right and
• 53:51
  we see them giving different credit where it's
• 53:53
  like we see in one in one part one part where
• 53:56
  it says you know the spirit of god brought them
• 53:58
  out of egypt it's like oh we know who the spirit
• 54:00
  of god is in another part we see yaweh elohim
• 54:03
  brought them out so the father brought them out
• 54:05
  it's like okay that's interesting in other places
• 54:07
  we see what was the angel of the lord who took
• 54:09
  credit for it so it's like okay so who was it
• 54:12
  It's like, well actually it's all of them because
• 54:14
  they're all God. They're all Yahweh. And so in
• 54:19
  all those places we see each of them plays a
• 54:21
  role. That's not something that just happened
• 54:24
  in the New Testament where it's like the Holy
• 54:27
  Spirit was just kind of like twiddling his thumbs.
• 54:29
  And he's like, all right, when is Pentecost gonna
• 54:31
  happen so I can start doing some work around
• 54:33
  here? And the Father is seated on the throne.
• 54:37
  So it's like, he's not just like, all right,
• 54:38
  time to get up. In that case, it kind of leaves
• 54:41
  Jesus where it's like, okay, what's he doing?
• 54:44
  And I think it's interesting because there's
• 54:46
  a lot of language about the character of Jesus
• 54:49
  and him being revealed at a certain time. And
• 54:53
  it's not like he was just hidden away somewhere
• 54:55
  and no one ever saw him or heard from him or
• 54:57
  he didn't do anything. But him being revealed
• 55:00
  as the Messiah is what happens. So before then,
• 55:04
  there is some research and a lot of people A
• 55:10
  lot of scholars point to this. It's like, well,
• 55:12
  the angel of the Lord that we see in the Old
• 55:14
  Testament is actually the character we now call
• 55:16
  Jesus. Right. And it's hotly debated. It is.
• 55:19
  Really? Yeah. For sure. It is very hotly debated.
• 55:22
  The biggest reason that I'm inclined to believe
• 55:24
  it is because we see parts in the Old Testament
• 55:27
  where he accepts worship from people. Right.
• 55:30
  Yep. Which we don't see from angels. Yeah. It's
• 55:35
  hotly debated because it would be a pre -incarnate
• 55:38
  Jesus. Right. Yeah. So that's that's kind of
• 55:43
  the difficult thing is like like Jesus at that
• 55:45
  point is not Emmanuel, right? Mm -hmm because
• 55:49
  because the other thing is like Okay, so because
• 55:55
  this also opens up a much bigger topic well,
• 55:57
  there's a thousand rabbit. Oh, yeah one particular
• 56:00
  I'm like, how do I get into that? Is that the
• 56:03
  Trinity conversation? No. Okay. So, well, one
• 56:06
  of the things I think about is modalism. So,
• 56:08
  modalism is a theology that basically says that
• 56:11
  when God needs to do something, He becomes one
• 56:15
  of the three parts of the Trinity. Sure. So,
• 56:17
  and it's considered a heresy, but it's, but I
• 56:21
  would say, and I think a lot of modern scholars
• 56:24
  would say that a lot of people think of God and
• 56:27
  the Trinity in terms of modalism. but do not
• 56:32
  believe modalism. So in other words, if God is
• 56:40
  in the beginning, God creates the heavens and
• 56:43
  the earth, and the Spirit of God was hovering
• 56:45
  over the waters. Okay, so God creates by speaking,
• 56:51
  as far as Yahweh creates by speaking, but what
• 56:55
  we see is actually the Holy Spirit is working.
• 56:59
  So the Spirit of God is hovering, it's doing
• 57:03
  something. So then is God's voice, Yahweh God's
• 57:09
  voice, what is creating? Or is it the vibration
• 57:13
  and the movement of the Spirit of God actually
• 57:16
  over the physical matter? Are these things in
• 57:19
  alignment? Or is one an extension of the other?
• 57:23
  Are these two different things happening? Or
• 57:25
  is it Yahweh speaking and then the actual work,
• 57:30
  he shifts into being the Holy Spirit to do the
• 57:33
  work, right? So then does God become flesh in
• 57:37
  the sense that God does not leave the throne
• 57:40
  but embodies or possesses Jesus on the earth?
• 57:45
  So that would be kind of the heresy of modalism,
• 57:48
  which would basically be functional, which, yeah,
• 57:55
  there's a... That's probably not the best explanation
• 57:58
  of it, but it's an overly simplified explanation
• 58:02
  of modalism. And it is hard to talk about the
• 58:05
  trinity without slipping into some kind of heresy
• 58:06
  on accident. Well, for sure, because it is a
• 58:09
  mystery of God. It's almost like that idea that
• 58:14
  the voice of God, the frequency of God speaking,
• 58:20
  the sound that God is making is... moving creation
• 58:25
  and it's reorganizing creation and the Spirit
• 58:29
  of God is in relationship with Yahweh in that
• 58:34
  instance. Now, the interesting thing about that
• 58:38
  is, where is Jesus if Yahweh is speaking the
• 58:43
  words of creation and the Spirit of God is hovering
• 58:46
  over the waters? Do you see where Jesus is? So
• 58:51
  John 1 says what? In the beginning was the Word.
• 58:54
  And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
• 58:58
  So when Yahweh speaks the Word, Jesus is right
• 59:03
  in the middle of the conversation. So Jesus is
• 59:06
  there in the beginning as the Word embodied.
• 59:10
  So the Word of God embodied is Jesus. So that's
• 59:16
  what John is expressing in John 1. reaching back
• 59:20
  to the creation story in Genesis, is saying that
• 59:24
  the Trinity is actively in motion, all functioning
• 59:29
  together, right? And they're all uniquely different
• 59:32
  because Yahweh or God doesn't become the Word
• 59:36
  that becomes the Holy Spirit that then actually
• 59:40
  moves matter on the earth to reorganize it. It's
• 59:43
  a harmony of all three of them working together.
• 59:46
  and it's the Word of God is actually Jesus. So
• 59:50
  it's kind of an interesting idea. And when you
• 59:53
  say it like that, the way that John says it,
• 59:57
  it can kind of feel diminishing in some way,
• 1:00:01
  like Jesus is the words on the page. It's like,
• 1:00:04
  well no, because God's Word is living and active,
• 1:00:08
  right? And sharper than any two -edged sword.
• 1:00:11
  It's... Like, Jesus is the Word that rightly
• 1:00:14
  divides what is good and what is... because Jesus
• 1:00:18
  is what? Jesus is the judge. He's the great high
• 1:00:21
  priest. He is the one that separates. He is the
• 1:00:26
  one that identifies while God is creating order
• 1:00:31
  and the Spirit of God is at work against or with
• 1:00:35
  the matter itself. So, there's these three unique
• 1:00:40
  Things and I won't even say functions because
• 1:00:42
  that leans towards modalism. Yeah Which is kind
• 1:00:46
  of that's the danger. Yeah So yeah, so So then
• 1:00:50
  is the angel of the Lord Jesus? That's not really
• 1:00:53
  your question. And I think that that like Simplifies
• 1:00:57
  it but is that kind of what you're wanting us
• 1:00:59
  to say? Yeah. Yes So that's the understanding
• 1:01:02
  I wanted to reach the idea that the angel of
• 1:01:05
  the Lord is Jesus just to kind of just like sit
• 1:01:08
  in the space of like Okay, well if the angel
• 1:01:11
  Lord is Jesus is Jesus just Was Jesus created
• 1:01:17
  for salvation of mankind or and So during the
• 1:01:24
  Old Testament, he's just up there and he's like,
• 1:01:26
  well, I gotta do something. Let me let me go
• 1:01:29
  down and I don't know be the king of Salem or
• 1:01:33
  something, you know Referring to Melchizedek.
• 1:01:36
  Yeah sure yeah and so uh or is he or is he existing
• 1:01:45
  and then at a time is being the savior so so
• 1:01:52
  the the time of revelation or the time in which
• 1:01:55
  the the savior or the messiah is revealed is
• 1:01:59
  referring to what god is doing to fulfill um
• 1:02:05
  the prophecy of the covenant that he made with
• 1:02:08
  Abraham. So that's the thing is like, um, God
• 1:02:13
  makes a covenant with Abraham all by himself.
• 1:02:17
  He makes a covenant with himself and Abraham
• 1:02:20
  is the beneficiary of that. So like the lamb
• 1:02:25
  being revealed at a particular time needed to
• 1:02:30
  happen. in a chronological space in the will
• 1:02:34
  of God at a specific time, so that things would
• 1:02:37
  play out the way that they played out. So that's
• 1:02:41
  the revealing, meaning it's the Word becoming
• 1:02:44
  flesh. But the Word is still the Word. Jesus
• 1:02:49
  remains the Word, but embodies flesh. So before
• 1:02:55
  Jesus is Jesus in flesh, He is the Word simply.
• 1:03:01
  So the Word of God in the Old Testament is Jesus.
• 1:03:06
  And the difficulty with calling the angel of
• 1:03:09
  the Lord in the Old Testament the pre -incarnate
• 1:03:14
  Jesus is that it's not consistent what the angel
• 1:03:17
  of the Lord does throughout. And it's also not
• 1:03:21
  consistent that it's like the angel of the Lord.
• 1:03:25
  Like there's an angel of the Lord there's the
• 1:03:29
  angel of the Lord, there are multiple different
• 1:03:31
  beings. So it's also not necessarily considering
• 1:03:35
  the fact that there are a lot of other beings,
• 1:03:38
  spiritual beings, other Elohim, that are not
• 1:03:44
  Jesus or the Holy Spirit or the archangel Michael.
• 1:03:51
  These are all different things. And we even talked
• 1:03:57
  about There's a passage, I forget where it is,
• 1:04:01
  but actually I think it's in Daniel. I think
• 1:04:03
  it's in Ezekiel. Yeah, yeah, because it's a vision
• 1:04:10
  of heaven, and there's a holy one speaking to
• 1:04:15
  another holy one. You're thinking of Daniel.
• 1:04:18
  I want to say it's Daniel 8. Okay. Yeah, it's
• 1:04:22
  either Daniel or Ezekiel. Which we just talked
• 1:04:25
  recently in an episode about how they actually
• 1:04:27
  overlap time, timeline wise, which is interesting.
• 1:04:31
  So like the, all of those, those periods overlap,
• 1:04:34
  but it says a Holy one talks to another Holy
• 1:04:37
  one. And the Holy one, when you read it in English,
• 1:04:41
  it says Holy one talks to the Holy one. When
• 1:04:43
  you read it in Hebrew, those names are different.
• 1:04:46
  It doesn't say the same thing back to back. And
• 1:04:48
  one of them is a keeper of numbers. It's like
• 1:04:53
  a keeper of time and numbers. So the other one
• 1:04:57
  asks them about the number of days, right? And
• 1:05:02
  the function of that Holy One is to be the keeper
• 1:05:05
  of the number of the days. So it's like we're
• 1:05:09
  actually looking at a being, a heavenly being,
• 1:05:12
  that was designed for a specific purpose to hold
• 1:05:16
  the number of the days. And that's a unique thing.
• 1:05:20
  So then the angel of the Lord that wrestles with
• 1:05:25
  Jacob, right? And we joked about that because
• 1:05:28
  it's like Jacob leaves everybody behind and then
• 1:05:32
  all of a sudden there's a guy there. You're like,
• 1:05:33
  well, where'd he come from? And it doesn't tell
• 1:05:35
  us. It's just like Jacob leaves everybody and
• 1:05:39
  then he starts wrestling with an angel. You're
• 1:05:40
  like, how did we get from A to B? How did this
• 1:05:44
  work? And in that instance, The interesting thing
• 1:05:48
  about that is when Jacob rustles with the angel
• 1:05:50
  of the Lord, he doesn't quite know who he is
• 1:05:54
  and And then he says I'm not gonna let you go
• 1:05:58
  until you bless me, right? And we don't really
• 1:06:00
  know how he gets into that I really want to study
• 1:06:03
  that a little bit more because I think the setup
• 1:06:05
  actually tells us in the in the The way it's
• 1:06:09
  set up in Hebrew culturally But it feels like
• 1:06:12
  it's missing in English the way it just shifts
• 1:06:15
  into that story. Yeah So that's the first time
• 1:06:22
  that we see Jacob called Israel, and he's called
• 1:06:25
  Israel by the angel of the Lord, he who wrestles
• 1:06:28
  with God, which is very synonymous to how things
• 1:06:31
  work in the Old Testament, that somebody would
• 1:06:33
  physically experience something or do something,
• 1:06:36
  and then they would receive a name from that.
• 1:06:38
  They would be named by the thing that they were
• 1:06:40
  doing, or that was the prophetic message they
• 1:06:43
  were delivering, which is the act that they were
• 1:06:46
  representing, much like Jonah. Jonah goes into
• 1:06:49
  the depths of Sheol and then he comes back out
• 1:06:52
  and he delivers the message to Nineveh that you're
• 1:06:55
  gonna go to Sheol if you don't turn away and
• 1:06:58
  follow God. And then that's what Jesus says is
• 1:07:00
  the only sign you're gonna get is the sign of
• 1:07:03
  Jonah. And then he goes to the depths of Sheol
• 1:07:06
  and then returns in resurrection. So you have
• 1:07:09
  that piece, but the thing is after Jacob wrestles
• 1:07:14
  the angel of the Lord, and he calls him Israel,
• 1:07:17
  he changes his name, he who wrestles with God.
• 1:07:20
  Jacob doesn't fully turn and follow Yahweh at
• 1:07:22
  that point. There's still some other things that
• 1:07:25
  go on. And then it's not until Jacob actually
• 1:07:27
  takes his family to Bethel, where his grandfather
• 1:07:31
  had been, and opens back up the well that eventually
• 1:07:37
  becomes Jacob's well, which is where Jesus meets
• 1:07:40
  the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well. And when
• 1:07:46
  he does that, he opens back up this place where
• 1:07:54
  Abraham was called out of Mesopotamia into the
• 1:07:58
  land of Canaan, and the place where he recognizes
• 1:08:01
  that is in Bethel, which is modern day West Bank,
• 1:08:06
  which is kind of interesting. But anyways, that's
• 1:08:08
  why that land is so important to Israel. they
• 1:08:13
  go at Bethel and When he goes back there in the
• 1:08:19
  tradition of Abraham and surrenders his household
• 1:08:22
  gods To the Lord and gets rid of everything then
• 1:08:27
  Yahweh All caps Lord Calls him Israel and at
• 1:08:33
  that point he's no longer Jacob he is Israel
• 1:08:37
  so it's like well, then is the angel of the Lord
• 1:08:41
  the Word of God coming to Jacob? Well, if it
• 1:08:46
  was, bless you, if it was, it didn't stick. So
• 1:08:50
  like what is happening there? And maybe what's
• 1:08:54
  happening there is what I said before is like
• 1:08:56
  the prophet. It's like he's having to wrestle
• 1:08:58
  with God first and then he gets named by God,
• 1:09:03
  right? So is that act, is that side story something
• 1:09:07
  that is this happened in order to set up this
• 1:09:11
  moment in Bethel? Right? So then it's like, well,
• 1:09:13
  is the angel of the Lord the Word of God? Is
• 1:09:16
  it God come down? Right? The difficult thing
• 1:09:20
  with that for me is that there was a—he's wrestling
• 1:09:24
  with, perceivably, flesh and blood. Right. But
• 1:09:30
  Jesus is not incarnate yet. Correct. So, but
• 1:09:35
  then one of the questions I have with that story
• 1:09:37
  is like, if he's like, hey, bless me, Does he
• 1:09:41
  just know this is the angel of the Lord or is
• 1:09:45
  there a physical appearance? Where he's like,
• 1:09:48
  oh, this is a holy being Because it's like if
• 1:09:52
  it is the incarnate Jesus Then Jacob would just
• 1:09:57
  be like, I'm just fighting a dude You know what
• 1:10:01
  I mean sure like obviously the story is told
• 1:10:05
  in hindsight so You're saying when it's recorded
• 1:10:09
  right right, right? Well, Jacob's the only one
• 1:10:12
  there. So you had to tell somebody right? You
• 1:10:15
  know what I mean? But is it possible after? Yahweh
• 1:10:21
  calls him Israel. He's like, oh that That dude
• 1:10:25
  I fought was an angel of the Lord. Oh You're
• 1:10:29
  saying in the moment. Well, well no because if
• 1:10:33
  he's like bless me then he then he has to know
• 1:10:36
  not necessarily no what and why well because
• 1:10:39
  anyone can bless anyone sure sure sure in the
• 1:10:41
  same way it's like we see with Jacob and Esau
• 1:10:43
  right it's like well his father blessed him okay
• 1:10:46
  yeah yeah but also his father was um his father
• 1:10:51
  was over the house yes so the presumption would
• 1:10:55
  be um where Jacob is the guy he's wrestling is
• 1:10:59
  the owner of the land right which would allow
• 1:11:02
  him to then give a blessing okay so in that way
• 1:11:06
  it more so goes back to a conversation of territorial
• 1:11:11
  ownership that in some ways, and that's why I
• 1:11:14
  need to look at that, because it might be like
• 1:11:16
  the first time that Jacob actually enters into
• 1:11:18
  that space, physically into that land area, and
• 1:11:22
  wrestles with the angel of the Lord, and asks
• 1:11:27
  him to bless him in order to give him entrance
• 1:11:30
  into that space, which would eventually give
• 1:11:32
  him the ability to walk into Bethel, because
• 1:11:37
  it expresses, like the biblical story expresses,
• 1:11:41
  that they had coverage, that like when Abraham
• 1:11:45
  comes into the land of Canaan, or when Jacob
• 1:11:47
  comes into the land of Canaan, there are like
• 1:11:51
  giants in that land, there are things going on
• 1:11:53
  in that land, and it was not an easy place to
• 1:11:58
  travel through, so they had protection in that
• 1:12:01
  way, and that may have been what allowed him
• 1:12:03
  to then walk into that land protected was to
• 1:12:07
  first wrestle with the angel of the Lord. That's
• 1:12:09
  why I need to go back and look at it. There's
• 1:12:11
  also two big things that, which you kind of touched
• 1:12:13
  on a little bit, but I kind of want to flesh
• 1:12:15
  out a little bit more. Okay. Because I think
• 1:12:17
  there's two assumptions that can kind of trip
• 1:12:19
  us up a little bit. And I'll be honest, I don't
• 1:12:22
  have one of these fully fleshed out yet enough
• 1:12:24
  to even like give a full answer to. But I think
• 1:12:28
  the main thing is you brought it up with like
• 1:12:29
  the two holy ones talking. Yeah. where it's like
• 1:12:32
  this is kind of a downside to us being detached
• 1:12:36
  from ancient Hebrew culture, as I like to say
• 1:12:38
  I'm a non -ancient non -Jew, and also language
• 1:12:46
  can change based on translation because well
• 1:12:49
  it has to make sense to us but then I'm reading
• 1:12:52
  something that has in the original language information
• 1:12:56
  that told them what was actually going on that
• 1:12:58
  doesn't fully translate to me all the time. And
• 1:13:01
  one of those is, whether it's Daniel or Ezekiel,
• 1:13:04
  I don't know, where it's like the two holy ones
• 1:13:07
  talking. It's like, OK, it looks like these just
• 1:13:09
  two holy things are talking. Right. But it's
• 1:13:12
  like, oh, actually, there are two beings that
• 1:13:14
  have two different roles. Yeah. And they're talking
• 1:13:16
  to each other. And so that's the same thing we
• 1:13:18
  see when we when we hear the word angel. We have
• 1:13:21
  an idea in our head because of medieval artwork
• 1:13:25
  and stories that make us think a certain thing.
• 1:13:28
  But is that what it actually means? It's like
• 1:13:31
  so I mean, I think we all know the answer is
• 1:13:33
  like so what is an angel? Yeah, like what's the
• 1:13:35
  definition of that word? Tiffany Whoa, whoa,
• 1:13:41
  whoa, why am I being brought into this? Group
• 1:13:46
  participation You haven't spoken this whole time.
• 1:13:49
  I'm just we're learning so much. I Love to listen
• 1:13:54
  Well, if I'm correct angel would just simply
• 1:13:57
  mean messenger Yeah, exactly right. So it's like
• 1:14:00
  so someone being called or something being called
• 1:14:03
  an angel of the Lord It means it's a messenger
• 1:14:05
  from God Right. Or a messenger of God. Right.
• 1:14:10
  So essentially it's like they're delivering a
• 1:14:13
  message and that message originates from the
• 1:14:15
  Lord. Now does it mean that God was just like,
• 1:14:18
  hey, go tell this guy something. Right. Yeah.
• 1:14:21
  Or is it some guy has like, oh, I should go say
• 1:14:23
  this thing. But that idea originated from the
• 1:14:26
  Lord. Sure. But we would say, oh, that message
• 1:14:30
  is from God. So that person is like, you delivered
• 1:14:32
  a message from God. You're an angel. Right. You
• 1:14:34
  know what I mean? Which is like what we see in
• 1:14:37
  Revelation. Yeah. With the angels of the seven
• 1:14:39
  churches. Yeah. Which that, that's, there's a
• 1:14:42
  lot of fun to talk about there. Kind of. Kind
• 1:14:43
  of, yes. There's a lot to say in there. Yeah.
• 1:14:46
  But, and uh, so with that idea, it's like, okay,
• 1:14:49
  so here's a title. So it's a, it's a job description
• 1:14:53
  essentially is what it is. Yeah. Um, and so because
• 1:14:58
  we see the word angel, it doesn't mean one specific
• 1:15:01
  being only fulfills that role. But it means whatever
• 1:15:04
  being was fulfilling that role was fulfilling
• 1:15:06
  that role that that was their job at that time
• 1:15:09
  Yeah, and that goes and that goes back to like
• 1:15:11
  what we've talked about of like what is our what
• 1:15:14
  is our created order? Like what is the creation
• 1:15:17
  order? And it seems to be that Identifiable names
• 1:15:21
  are actually more job titles than proper nouns
• 1:15:24
  in the sense that like it's not that I mean the
• 1:15:29
  best example is what does Adam mean? Like Adam
• 1:15:32
  means man or humanity. So is that representative
• 1:15:39
  of an actual guy named Adam or is it representative
• 1:15:43
  of humanity, the creation of humanity as a species
• 1:15:48
  that was created by God, right? And I think most
• 1:15:54
  scholars would argue that you see both. You both
• 1:15:56
  see the actual guy, Adam, And then you see Adam
• 1:16:01
  as humanity that humanity is created and then
• 1:16:04
  also there's a guy named Adam Right, and we don't
• 1:16:07
  really see the the difference of that and the
• 1:16:10
  the way that we can parallel it or we can check
• 1:16:12
  it is Looking at Genesis 5 where it talks about
• 1:16:16
  at 120 Adam has Seth and then you start to see
• 1:16:24
  the age of he dies when he's like 900 or something
• 1:16:27
  like that Yeah. But the other side of that, too,
• 1:16:34
  is the thought where it's like, if something
• 1:16:36
  is physical, it has to be flesh and blood. And
• 1:16:40
  I think that's one idea that I would push back
• 1:16:42
  on a little bit. Yeah. Where it's like, I don't
• 1:16:45
  think it does. And once we've talked about this
• 1:16:48
  a little bit, it's like, well, we can go into
• 1:16:50
  these weird thin places where it's like, oh,
• 1:16:54
  the natural and the supernatural kind of become
• 1:16:56
  a little bit. a little bit blurry. And now we're
• 1:16:59
  interacting with things that aren't flesh and
• 1:17:01
  blood. And it's interesting because we see a
• 1:17:05
  couple places. So would you say Jacob was in
• 1:17:09
  the spirit? I wouldn't go as far as to say that.
• 1:17:13
  Yeah. But I wouldn't remove that idea. Sure.
• 1:17:16
  I can see that. But what about Lot? And that's
• 1:17:18
  what I was going with. Yeah, that's exactly what
• 1:17:20
  I was thinking. And so even with that, it's like,
• 1:17:24
  if we even go ahead and say, OK, These spiritual
• 1:17:27
  beings can take on the form of flesh and blood
• 1:17:30
  Okay, because now because now we're seeing beings.
• 1:17:33
  I don't like that. I don't either I don't like
• 1:17:37
  it either. Well, it's like and we see with Abraham
• 1:17:39
  as well where it's like, oh here are these these
• 1:17:43
  People coming to him and having and having food
• 1:17:46
  with him. Yes, and we see the same thing with
• 1:17:49
  a lot where it's like oh here are these people
• 1:17:51
  that come in and Deliver a message to him. Yes,
• 1:17:54
  and it's like oh well I'm pretty sure it clarifies
• 1:17:57
  like these aren't people Like these they don't
• 1:18:01
  originate from earth. Sure. Yeah, but that doesn't
• 1:18:04
  mean they're not flesh and blood Is that what
• 1:18:08
  you're saying? Well, that's what I'm saying is
• 1:18:09
  like it doesn't mean they aren't doesn't mean
• 1:18:10
  that they aren't Flesh and blood and appearance
• 1:18:13
  only is that what you're saying? No, I mean so
• 1:18:15
  the the angels that show up to lot the two men,
• 1:18:18
  right? Yep, they sit down and they eat food.
• 1:18:20
  Yeah, yes lots food. Yeah, so that's a discussion
• 1:18:23
  of is not necessarily human flesh and blood,
• 1:18:29
  but a being flesh and blood. Like, is a spiritual
• 1:18:32
  being necessarily an ethereal ghost or vapor?
• 1:18:38
  Or is a spiritual being an actual being, physical
• 1:18:41
  in form, but not of this world? Another word
• 1:18:49
  for that is alien. Well in that that even opens
• 1:18:53
  up a whole other conversation to that we're not
• 1:18:55
  ready to talk about Of course we kind of have
• 1:18:58
  but a little bit. Yeah. I mean that's when it
• 1:19:00
  goes into like When we talk about just heaven
• 1:19:03
  and what is like what what is that up there?
• 1:19:06
  Oh sure. What is that whole thing? Yeah. Yeah
• 1:19:08
  But that does go back to the garden in the sense
• 1:19:11
  of like yeah, so one of the interesting things
• 1:19:13
  about that is And and I think this is an interesting
• 1:19:18
  distinction that I didn't really grasp or hear
• 1:19:22
  about in this way, but like, so the temple, Solomon's
• 1:19:26
  temple, or the temple rebuilt, the second temple.
• 1:19:31
  So the Israelites did not see that the fullness
• 1:19:34
  of God's presence was contained in the Ark of
• 1:19:37
  the Covenant. They didn't perceive it that way.
• 1:19:39
  They understood it that, based on really the
• 1:19:43
  Psalms kind of explained this to us, but they
• 1:19:46
  saw that the earth was the footstool of God.
• 1:19:50
  So they saw that the temple and the ark of the
• 1:19:53
  covenant and this holy space was not the full
• 1:19:56
  containment of the presence of God in that one
• 1:19:59
  location. What it was is it's where God's feet
• 1:20:02
  were. So God set his feet down on the earth in
• 1:20:06
  that location. Some small feet. Yeah, but also
• 1:20:13
  pretty big or a big God But also maybe has small
• 1:20:22
  feet and big body who knows Does God skip leg
• 1:20:27
  day But yeah, so like that's in that way it's
• 1:20:36
  like we kind of see this idea that God is, there's
• 1:20:43
  this interlocking space and that's what the garden
• 1:20:46
  is. It's this interlocking space. Now is the
• 1:20:49
  garden actually on earth and is Eden earth the
• 1:20:53
  fullness of earth? That's a whole different discussion.
• 1:20:56
  Is Eden a space between the two spaces? I think
• 1:21:02
  at the very least it is definitely the place
• 1:21:06
  where heaven and earth meet. so whether it's
• 1:21:09
  physically fully on earth and God is coming down
• 1:21:11
  and walking on the earth in the cool of the day
• 1:21:13
  or if he's coming into the garden and Adam and
• 1:21:17
  Eve are Going to that space if they're coming
• 1:21:20
  up and he's coming down if it's a middle space,
• 1:21:23
  right? There is some belief around that idea
• 1:21:27
  But then you're asking about physical form does
• 1:21:30
  does Adam and Eve? Do or does Adam walk with
• 1:21:34
  God in the cool of the day does? uh god look
• 1:21:38
  like adam in that instance i mean not necessarily
• 1:21:42
  i just just just the thought of like i've always
• 1:21:45
  pictured it as adam all by himself physically
• 1:21:49
  and just like bright light in the sky communicating
• 1:21:52
  with god yes but like i don't know just like
• 1:21:56
  i just had a thought of like oh like could it
• 1:21:58
  be jesus either in fleshly or in the appearance
• 1:22:03
  we see in revelation or just like that sort of
• 1:22:08
  idea. Yeah, I mean, we don't necessarily have
• 1:22:11
  the description that Adam is talking to God face
• 1:22:14
  to face. Sure. That's something that we don't
• 1:22:17
  really see until Moses, as far as that type of
• 1:22:23
  description. So we're not necessarily getting
• 1:22:25
  a face of God in the garden. So I think it probably
• 1:22:30
  does look more like that. his focused presence
• 1:22:35
  is with Adam at specific times, right? So I think
• 1:22:39
  it is probably more like that. It probably is
• 1:22:41
  a little bit more ethereal in that sense. It's
• 1:22:45
  not necessarily Jesus walking with Adam himself.
• 1:22:48
  Right. So then what would you say about whenever,
• 1:22:53
  and I could have the verse just completely wrong
• 1:22:55
  in my head, but whenever God sows the fig leaves,
• 1:22:59
  like just happened in thin air? Do you know what
• 1:23:07
  you're talking about? Yeah, you're talking about
• 1:23:09
  the skin. Whenever it says that God essentially
• 1:23:14
  creates clothes for them. Do you think that's
• 1:23:16
  just out of thin air? I don't. That's where my
• 1:23:24
  question came to more full form. Yeah, I guess
• 1:23:28
  just imagining Jesus or some more physical being
• 1:23:33
  in the garden or not in the garden just treating
• 1:23:38
  clothes and being like, here you go. Yeah. You
• 1:23:40
  know? Yeah, it is tough, too, because we're not
• 1:23:44
  given that picture of how exactly it happens.
• 1:23:47
  Right. And then, of course, this is also to take
• 1:23:49
  all of Genesis word for word, literally, which
• 1:23:53
  I don't know your stance on that, but yeah. That's
• 1:23:58
  fair. Well, I would actually say it's more complicated
• 1:24:01
  than that. I think it's a little bit more intricate
• 1:24:04
  than is it literal or not literal? Is it poetic
• 1:24:07
  or not poetic? I think if you're looking at strict
• 1:24:11
  like literature format, like how is it written?
• 1:24:17
  It's Hebrew poetry. Right. As far as like literary
• 1:24:20
  form. But is it describing actual things? And
• 1:24:25
  that's where Paul and I would go into the idea
• 1:24:27
  that like Nothing that is described so like if
• 1:24:31
  you're given a metaphor or a parable or you're
• 1:24:33
  given like this looks like this It's not referencing
• 1:24:37
  something that doesn't exist or that you don't
• 1:24:38
  know about So like it's all founded in things
• 1:24:42
  that are tangibly true or tangibly real, right?
• 1:24:46
  So like if if God is explaining Creation the
• 1:24:51
  creation of all things then the things that are
• 1:24:54
  tangible that he's talking about, those are actually
• 1:24:58
  referencing tangible things. Now, are they specifically
• 1:25:02
  those things or are they like those things? That
• 1:25:05
  would be unique to the poetic language. And sometimes
• 1:25:09
  they are and sometimes they aren't. And then
• 1:25:11
  we look at really, I would say the first place
• 1:25:17
  to look in starting to explore what Genesis looks
• 1:25:22
  like in detail would be the Psalms. There's a
• 1:25:26
  lot of explanation in the Psalms of things that
• 1:25:29
  are going, well this is talking about very specific
• 1:25:32
  detailed things that if that's not actually what's
• 1:25:36
  happening, where in the world does this idea
• 1:25:38
  even come from? If that's not culturally understood,
• 1:25:42
  right? So the same type of things that we've
• 1:25:44
  talked about is like the sea monsters in Genesis
• 1:25:49
  1. Like those are referred Referencing the Psalms
• 1:25:53
  first Yeah, not explicit in Genesis one depends
• 1:25:57
  on the translation that's fair the RSV actually
• 1:26:00
  says sea monsters Yeah, cuz I mean that's where
• 1:26:02
  we get to home. Yeah, right. Yeah, which is referencing
• 1:26:06
  Mesopotamian gods Well, I mean that that's what
• 1:26:17
  you're saying is when we look at this idea of
• 1:26:19
  I mean, that's the idea of myths. It's like,
• 1:26:21
  how do you tell a physical and a supernatural
• 1:26:24
  story at the same time? Sure. And I think that's
• 1:26:27
  to what Stephen's saying. That's what we're seeing
• 1:26:29
  in Genesis. It's how do you explain this huge
• 1:26:32
  supernatural event in a very physical material
• 1:26:35
  way at the same time? And that's what that's
• 1:26:38
  what Genesis is doing. That's what we see other
• 1:26:41
  myths try to do as well. Yeah. And so there are
• 1:26:44
  these like weird mixes of, yes, these things
• 1:26:47
  did actually happen. but also there's a supernatural
• 1:26:50
  element that I don't really know how to explain,
• 1:26:53
  but this is what I'm going to say. Because both
• 1:26:56
  things are true. Yeah, and I think maybe to wrap
• 1:27:01
  up this idea would be to hit on that last piece.
• 1:27:04
  So in Genesis 3 it says, sorry in verse 21, and
• 1:27:11
  the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments
• 1:27:14
  of skins and clothed them. Now it doesn't necessarily
• 1:27:19
  say that like the Lord God like sewed like killed
• 1:27:23
  an animal skinned it and sewed it It could be
• 1:27:26
  that there's somebody or some being in the garden
• 1:27:30
  that has that job function and did it on the
• 1:27:33
  order of God Which is probably more likely right?
• 1:27:36
  Yeah, which brings the question. Are there other
• 1:27:38
  beings in the garden and That's where we would
• 1:27:41
  have to look at the Psalms. Yeah, but then it
• 1:27:45
  goes on to say Then the Lord God said, behold,
• 1:27:47
  the man has become like one of us in knowing
• 1:27:51
  good and evil, which echoes back to Genesis 1,
• 1:27:54
  where man is created. Let us make man, let us
• 1:27:56
  make man in our image. So, we would say the mod
• 1:28:04
  norm view, which is the modern normal view. And
• 1:28:10
  I think The reason why we started saying that
• 1:28:13
  is because I think we would call it a traditional
• 1:28:15
  view, but it's not actually the traditional view.
• 1:28:18
  And the traditional view is really referring
• 1:28:20
  to the first like three to five hundred years
• 1:28:22
  of the Church. So it's Jewish understanding,
• 1:28:26
  and then the beginning of the Church, the first
• 1:28:28
  several generations. Most of how we talk about
• 1:28:32
  these types of things is shaped by Augustine
• 1:28:38
  and medieval. uh thought and framing and artwork
• 1:28:42
  which is not traditional um it's it's middle
• 1:28:49
  age it's mod norm because um most traditional
• 1:28:57
  Christians would not have seen the let us or
• 1:29:03
  they have become like us referring to the Trinity
• 1:29:08
  talking to itself, but instead a council of God
• 1:29:13
  where there are beings that are the leads of
• 1:29:19
  different functions, meaning if there is a holy
• 1:29:24
  one who is the keeper of the numbers, there's
• 1:29:27
  probably a boss of that holy one who is the boss
• 1:29:30
  of the keepers of the numbers. I love this idea.
• 1:29:32
  Right? Yeah. So this would be the concept of
• 1:29:35
  the council of the gods, which is not the Greek
• 1:29:39
  Council of the Gods. Well, the Psalms are called
• 1:29:42
  the Divine Council. The Divine Council is how
• 1:29:48
  Psalms calls it. Right. So that concept would
• 1:29:51
  be similar to the view that we're invited into
• 1:29:58
  in Job 1, which is the oldest written book in
• 1:30:02
  the Bible. And that's where we see this uh conversation
• 1:30:08
  in the divine council so it's all these like
• 1:30:11
  leaders of um different being groups so different
• 1:30:16
  departments and i've mentioned this before and
• 1:30:19
  i like i would like to do an episode where we
• 1:30:21
  flesh out the idea that like we're in the earth
• 1:30:24
  department Like humanity was created for that.
• 1:30:27
  I think it's so funny that like in human mortal
• 1:30:30
  like thoughts it's like a corporate setting and
• 1:30:33
  it's like there's like a manager and then there's
• 1:30:35
  just a bunch of employees. We're just a bunch
• 1:30:36
  of middle managers. Like who's the Michael Scott?
• 1:30:41
  But who's the Dwight? I think we know who the
• 1:30:44
  Dwight is. We all know who he is. Well, I mean
• 1:30:49
  like Jack I Had that exact thought but on the
• 1:30:56
  complete opposite side I was like well Satan
• 1:31:01
  probably is Organized like that and then I was
• 1:31:05
  saying like there's probably a guy like over,
• 1:31:07
  Florida He's just going crazy about Pete pre
• 1:31:12
  or post the disciples, yeah post disciples Okay,
• 1:31:19
  so that would be determined by the Christians
• 1:31:26
  in the area. Yes. And that's kind of tricky to
• 1:31:29
  say. So in other words, if there are more Christians
• 1:31:33
  in a focused area, there is less success in the
• 1:31:38
  spiritual realm from evil activity. Yes. There's
• 1:31:46
  more... prosperous things happening because the
• 1:31:52
  boundary of that area has been invaded by the
• 1:31:56
  Holy Spirit living in Christians. Correct. Yeah.
• 1:31:59
  And I just like thinking of it in that way and
• 1:32:01
  it's like, ah, their branch just got shut down.
• 1:32:05
  You know what I mean? Sure. That's really good.
• 1:32:08
  That is what happens. It's also a big compliment
• 1:32:10
  to assume they're organized. Yeah. Sure. Well,
• 1:32:14
  but God has organized them. God is. God's organized
• 1:32:16
  them. That's a whole different thing. Right.
• 1:32:19
  It's a whole different episode. Well, but that's
• 1:32:21
  the idea of, like, Revelations, the ancient serpent,
• 1:32:26
  the devil, the Satan, the ancient serpent referring
• 1:32:31
  to the being in the garden. Correct. Which Psalm
• 1:32:34
  87 refers to him as Is it Psalm? No, that's the
• 1:32:38
  Ezekiel passage. Ezekiel 28? Yeah, which refers
• 1:32:41
  to a guardian cherub that once was a guardian
• 1:32:49
  in the Garden of Eden. When you look at that,
• 1:32:55
  and then you look at El -Satan, or Satan, not
• 1:33:00
  El -Satan, Ha -Satan. In Job, that's a job title
• 1:33:05
  versus the ancient serpent. And so these are
• 1:33:10
  not the same. There's a difference between the
• 1:33:14
  two. So that does go into that conversation a
• 1:33:18
  little bit more. But yeah, I would say that there
• 1:33:23
  are people... I think most pastors would probably
• 1:33:30
  hold to that view of the Trinity. that space
• 1:33:34
  and then hold to The fact that Jesus is not the
• 1:33:38
  angel of the Lord Which is kind of interesting.
• 1:33:41
  I don't think that those things are congruent
• 1:33:43
  meaning like depending on which pastor you talk
• 1:33:46
  to you I think more evangelical Charismatic pastors
• 1:33:51
  would not say that the angel of the Lord was
• 1:33:53
  Jesus a pre -incarnate Jesus really and and would
• 1:33:58
  say that the us in the and the Genesis passages
• 1:34:04
  is the Trinity and not a divine council. So I
• 1:34:10
  feel like that kind of wraps up that. I also,
• 1:34:12
  because I can't help myself, I do want to bring
• 1:34:15
  up an important thing because you touched on
• 1:34:17
  this as well, even the idea of God covering them
• 1:34:23
  with the animal skin. And I think that's that's
• 1:34:26
  an important thing even it goes back to the whole
• 1:34:28
  lucky coincidences idea where it's like Oh, was
• 1:34:31
  it just like a coincidence that he did that?
• 1:34:34
  And it's like well not really because that's
• 1:34:37
  actually what we see is a gospel story where
• 1:34:39
  the the first thing that was killed was by God
• 1:34:42
  And he killed it to cover man. Yeah to cover
• 1:34:46
  man for their sin and their mistake, right? And
• 1:34:49
  so it's like well, that's a representation of
• 1:34:51
  well, who's the last sacrifice? Yeah it's like
• 1:34:54
  well that's Jesus who is the lamb and yeah we
• 1:34:59
  see it was to cover the sin of man yeah yeah
• 1:35:04
  so in that in that sense it's like well did it
• 1:35:07
  physically happen or did it uh metaphorically
• 1:35:10
  happen it's like well both things happened sure
• 1:35:13
  yeah and just to wrap things up um the word to
• 1:35:20
  describe this is Christophany and the whole reason
• 1:35:22
  I like this topic is because I love that word.
• 1:35:26
  Yeah, it just flows so nicely. You say it again.
• 1:35:28
  Christophany. Okay. Christophany. I believe you.
• 1:35:32
  Is that Christoph's full name in Frozen? I was
• 1:35:35
  thinking the same thing! You always find a way.
• 1:35:40
  Just thinking of the song, sorry. Disney has
• 1:35:42
  to show up somewhere. Will you finish each other's?
• 1:35:45
  Sandwiches. Gotta go. Thank you. That's what
• 1:35:48
  I was gonna say. We gotta go. So we'll wrap this
• 1:35:53
  up. Maybe there's more to come. We'll see. Until
• 1:35:58
  then, three, two, one.