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KILLER THRILLER x DOCU: What If Everything You Believe About Murder Is Wrong? · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Robock and T. J.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your Host Alisa Donovan. Hi, guys,
0:15
Speaker 2: I'm Jen Fessler, host of Killer Thriller DOCU edition, and
0:19
Speaker 2: today I am joined by my partner in crime, Alisavan.
0:27
Speaker 1: Conintended.
0:28
Speaker 2: Hi, Jen him, I love. How are you?
0:31
Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How are you going on hanging out?
0:36
Speaker 2: Doing better than a lot of the people that we
0:40
Speaker 2: see on our right.
0:42
Speaker 1: I was going to say yes, and I don't.
0:45
Speaker 2: Even want to make a that's not even a joke,
0:47
Speaker 2: because you know, we're talking about today to horrific just
0:53
Speaker 2: hard to even fathom crime documentaries that are on well,
0:59
Speaker 2: one film and one of them in particular is shaking
1:03
Speaker 2: up the country this particular documentary, and anyone listening probably
1:06
Speaker 2: knows that we're talking about the Idaho murders, but we're
1:12
Speaker 2: going to talk about two very different cases actually, and
1:16
Speaker 2: they're both you know that both the ones that we're
1:18
Speaker 2: going to talk about are very public and capture the
1:20
Speaker 2: attention of the whole country. There was intense public debate,
1:24
Speaker 2: difficult questions about justice, accountability, mental health, the way we
1:27
Speaker 2: tell true crime stories, and we're going to kind of
1:31
Speaker 2: just you know, look at why these cases become obsession,
1:35
Speaker 2: sort of cultural obsession. So you know, we're going to
1:39
Speaker 2: look at the Idaho murders, and we're going to look
1:42
Speaker 2: at a case of Lindsay Clancy, who is a Massachusetts
1:46
Speaker 2: mom accused of killing her three children while her defense
1:49
Speaker 2: centers around postpartum psychosis and mental illness, and we're going
1:53
Speaker 2: to try to just kind of look beyond the headlines
1:55
Speaker 2: and explore why these cases became cultural moments, you know,
2:00
Speaker 2: how audiences have connected with these stories, what they reveal
2:04
Speaker 2: about the way we consume and understand true crime, which
2:07
Speaker 2: is something I am always interested in, in particular, watching
2:12
Speaker 2: the Idaho murders, it was so hard to I mean,
2:15
Speaker 2: this documentary was so hard to watch, so upsetting, and
2:19
Speaker 2: yet over eight million people have tuned in, and it's
2:24
Speaker 2: hard to wrap my head around that because it was
2:27
Speaker 2: difficult for me to get through it right too.
2:29
Speaker 1: I do want to point out straight away how much
2:32
Speaker 1: I appreciate that this documentary and all of documentaries that
2:36
Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger, who's the executive producer and Skyborgman is the director,
2:41
Speaker 1: they are very, very focused on the victims and the families.
2:46
Speaker 1: So while they are yes covering the perpetrator and this
2:52
Speaker 1: just severely damaged human being who has done these things.
2:56
Speaker 1: They are really talking about the humanity piece of this
2:59
Speaker 1: and the grief, and they're giving time and respect and
3:02
Speaker 1: energy to the victims and their families, which I think
3:06
Speaker 1: is the whole point of all of this.
3:09
Speaker 2: Is that why America is so transfixed by these stories
3:15
Speaker 2: because for me and for you, because we've spoken about it,
3:17
Speaker 2: it is finding the humanity somewhere in what feels so inhumane,
3:24
Speaker 2: right and especially difficult when stories hit close to home.
3:31
Speaker 2: And I think that's also part of what's going on
3:34
Speaker 2: with these two stories. Do you a heart?
3:36
Speaker 1: Well, yes, because there both of them involve situations that
3:40
Speaker 1: we consider to be healthy, happy, kind of sort of
3:46
Speaker 1: a given part of human life, you know, childbirth and
3:53
Speaker 1: being in college, right, having this kind of joyful, safe, fun,
3:58
Speaker 1: exploratory experience. And it threatens the very things that we
4:05
Speaker 1: kind of hold up as these sacred, sacred and very
4:10
Speaker 1: basic human experiences and rights. And it's so deeply upsetting.
4:17
Speaker 2: I find it so weird though, Like my daughter, So
4:21
Speaker 2: I watched the Idaho murders and me too. Okay, So
4:25
Speaker 2: I was at the beach and I put it on
4:27
Speaker 2: and I watched it, and my daughter does love true crime,
4:30
Speaker 2: but I didn't even mention it to her. Whatever she
4:32
Speaker 2: was doing, she was doing, I was doing what I
4:34
Speaker 2: was doing. And then a few hours later she said, Mom,
4:38
Speaker 2: if you watched the Idaho murders. I just watched it,
4:40
Speaker 2: like we just had missed each other. And I so.
4:42
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because for her especially, she's twenty four,
4:45
Speaker 2: so the age that these kids would have been, and
4:48
Speaker 2: she loves, you know, true crime. But I was interested
4:51
Speaker 2: in you know why she's she loves to watch true crime?
4:55
Speaker 1: Like yeah, could she answer you?
4:58
Speaker 2: Scare her doesn't really know? She she hasn't figured it out.
5:03
Speaker 2: I think it's really it's a it's a difficult thing
5:06
Speaker 2: to pinpoint, right, like what is it about the human
5:08
Speaker 2: condition that we and I have to use the word enjoy,
5:13
Speaker 2: we enjoy watching troop?
5:14
Speaker 1: Well?
5:15
Speaker 2: Right?
5:15
Speaker 1: Is it a morbid curiosity?
5:17
Speaker 2: Is it?
5:18
Speaker 1: Is there part of it?
5:19
Speaker 2: I do part of it. That's part of it.
5:21
Speaker 1: That's like ultimately uh not self fulfiilling. Good lord, that's
5:28
Speaker 1: not what I mean A kind of like a safety
5:32
Speaker 1: thing where like overcoming understanding that you are okay because
5:38
Speaker 1: maybe or is it like the U but for the
5:42
Speaker 1: grace of God, go I you know, like I don't know, like.
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Speaker 2: I think sometimes it's also watching a freak show. So
5:50
Speaker 2: for instance, and I, by the way, before I say it,
5:52
Speaker 2: I think I have an unconscious subconscious block when I
5:56
Speaker 2: say his name. I never know if I'm saying it right.
5:58
Speaker 2: I think I almost don't want to say it. But
5:59
Speaker 2: Brian Coneburger, Coburger, Oh Burger. I've done it this so
6:04
Speaker 2: many times. But I think watching someone who does something
6:11
Speaker 2: so evil and so again like subhuman is it's fast
6:20
Speaker 2: because it's like watching a monster. People like monsters. Yes, yes,
6:23
Speaker 2: you know.
6:24
Speaker 1: And I find myself him in particular, but probably most
6:29
Speaker 1: him in particular trying. I think it's because he looks
6:34
Speaker 1: at the camera so much. Yeah, and there are so
6:37
Speaker 1: many images prior too of him directly staring into the
6:40
Speaker 1: screen and the selfiees that he's taken and all of that.
6:44
Speaker 1: But in the courtroom as well, where I'm trying to
6:47
Speaker 1: look in his face to get a clue as to
6:52
Speaker 1: what on earth is going on there and what does
6:55
Speaker 1: a person this diabolical look like. But you know, you
6:58
Speaker 1: and I both know some times these people know Ted
7:02
Speaker 1: Bundy is the perfect example, he shattered the image of
7:06
Speaker 1: what we how we perceive evil and you know, he
7:11
Speaker 1: and I also think it is his case in particular
7:15
Speaker 1: brings Brian Coberger, I mean, brings up this really important
7:19
Speaker 1: question of what is justice for the families and what
7:23
Speaker 1: is exploitation and what is you know, I was so
7:26
Speaker 1: moved by the family when they spoke to him in
7:31
Speaker 1: the sentence, the one sister of one of the victims,
7:35
Speaker 1: who was like, you're not getting this from me, and
7:38
Speaker 1: she said.
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Speaker 2: She feels like she meant it, but you don't feel
7:41
Speaker 2: sometimes like behind those dead eyes, do you think he cares?
7:45
Speaker 2: Like I know, it's not really about him in those moments, right,
7:47
Speaker 2: It's about the victims being able to say what they
7:51
Speaker 2: need to say. But I keep he's so stone cold
7:56
Speaker 2: and like, was he even you know, really taking in
8:00
Speaker 2: what they were saying, because that's what you want to think.
8:02
Speaker 2: You want to think that like right, these these.
8:04
Speaker 1: But that's what a revenge sane person would explain. So
8:07
Speaker 1: it's right, Yes, I could see in his face when
8:10
Speaker 1: I was looking there were a couple of moments where
8:12
Speaker 1: I felt like he was about to crack a smile,
8:15
Speaker 1: like he was, and I felt like I don't know
8:19
Speaker 1: what the answer is, because certainly I think her point
8:23
Speaker 1: was I'm not this isn't about you, I'm not giving
8:26
Speaker 1: you the credit, and which I deeply respect and understanding.
8:31
Speaker 1: I can't imagine how hard that was for her. And
8:34
Speaker 1: and and then you say, okay, well, then what is
8:37
Speaker 1: that is it just to never talk about this person
8:41
Speaker 1: and not give him a lot of times, that's.
8:43
Speaker 2: Sort of what's going on now. I feel like there's
8:47
Speaker 2: a sort of a move towards not mentioning that they're
8:50
Speaker 2: not saying the name of the criminal of the mark.
8:54
Speaker 2: Let's not even give that person a name, right.
8:58
Speaker 1: Like give them the notoriety that yes.
9:00
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly exactly, well, okay, So I also think with
9:05
Speaker 2: the Idaho murders that so the girls that were and
9:10
Speaker 2: the excuse me, the girls and the boy that were murdered, Kaylee, Madison,
9:14
Speaker 2: Xanna and Ethan when every time their pictures would come
9:19
Speaker 2: up on my screen and they'd show them in like
9:20
Speaker 2: a foursome, and you know, so they were so playful
9:23
Speaker 2: and I'm I was so uh just unnerved because again,
9:29
Speaker 2: my daughter and son are that age and they well
9:32
Speaker 2: they would have been now I think exactly my daughter's age,
9:34
Speaker 2: maybe the year or two behind behind Zach. But they
9:38
Speaker 2: it was so unnerving because also they are at they're
9:42
Speaker 2: at college, they are having themselves the greatest four years.
9:47
Speaker 2: They're talking about how they loved Idaho. They are they
9:51
Speaker 2: look the part right and of just happy, go lucky students,
9:58
Speaker 2: and then this sick, twisted, horrific thing happens. And I
10:05
Speaker 2: think that that's also part of the fascination because sometimes
10:13
Speaker 2: like children, like we're going to talk about in the
10:16
Speaker 2: next the film, but like when the victim seems so
10:23
Speaker 2: vulnerable or on the brink of real life, it's just it's.
10:27
Speaker 1: It's a breaking yeah. And it's also you know, I
10:30
Speaker 1: think we have to talk about the fact that this
10:34
Speaker 1: crime in particular, it was so premeditated. And this man
10:42
Speaker 1: kid whatever, I mean, he's twenty one.
10:46
Speaker 2: At the time, he was older, so he was a
10:48
Speaker 2: grad student, so he's likely mid twenties, I think, yeah,
10:52
Speaker 2: a little older.
10:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was stalking these women and this house,
10:59
Speaker 1: and all of the digital data they have on him,
11:02
Speaker 1: and where his car was, where his phone was, like
11:05
Speaker 1: all of those things prove that he went after these
11:09
Speaker 1: people very specifically. And they also couldn't. They couldn't prove
11:13
Speaker 1: with the evidence, but they had circumstantial evidence that he
11:18
Speaker 1: was on these in cell sites, these sites that are
11:21
Speaker 1: women hating and you know, involuntary celibacy and they're really misogynistic,
11:29
Speaker 1: very deeply disturbed, anti female websites. And so you think
11:36
Speaker 1: of this person who had a very you know, they
11:40
Speaker 1: they when they looked at his phone, they said it
11:42
Speaker 1: was so highly unusual that a person is only in
11:45
Speaker 1: contact with maybe eighteen people. It was a very low.
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Speaker 2: Lay, right, right, Well, he's very purposeful. Yes, I thought
11:54
Speaker 2: it was also part of why this documentary is first
12:00
Speaker 2: but also you know, between Sky and Joe, this stuff
12:04
Speaker 2: doesn't becomes fascinating to watch this study, you know, in
12:07
Speaker 2: the worst of humanity, but also watch it the case unfold,
12:11
Speaker 2: because at first it just was circumstantial, right, And by
12:17
Speaker 2: the end there was DNA and there was the fact
12:20
Speaker 2: that they could even know they right, they got the
12:23
Speaker 2: guard when Brian fled to his parents' house and they
12:27
Speaker 2: put out the guard. The parents will put out the garbage,
12:29
Speaker 2: and they found DNA on the garbage of someone that
12:32
Speaker 2: would be Brian's father.
12:33
Speaker 1: Their father, right, isn't that that is wow?
12:37
Speaker 2: I mean, don't people know you can't get away with
12:38
Speaker 2: a crime anymore, Like although that's not true, that is
12:41
Speaker 2: actually not true. They say that today it's almost easier.
12:46
Speaker 2: And this was another podcast that I did. There are
12:48
Speaker 2: statistics around it, and I don't really get it.
12:50
Speaker 1: But because there's so much information, so we should also
12:54
Speaker 1: mention that Brian was a criminal psychology in college and
13:02
Speaker 1: was a student of doctor kathyin Ramsland, who I interviewed
13:06
Speaker 1: about her book about the BTK killer. She was not
13:09
Speaker 1: allowed to speak about Brian at all because obviously the
13:13
Speaker 1: case is still ongoing, but he very specifically studied this
13:19
Speaker 1: stuff so new utilized the information and the knowledge that
13:23
Speaker 1: he was given in order to execute these crimes. And
13:29
Speaker 1: then that they find through the timing on his phone
13:32
Speaker 1: that he went back to his apartment and took a
13:36
Speaker 1: selfie giving himself a thumbs up. I can't even it's
13:41
Speaker 1: it's just but again, it really speaks to this like
13:45
Speaker 1: that we're always saying these things come from there's always
13:49
Speaker 1: a deep loneliness associated with this behavior, and it does
13:53
Speaker 1: not excuse any of it by any stretch of the imagination.
13:57
Speaker 1: But it's so interesting to me that you know, the
14:02
Speaker 1: This is about the human experience and if you don't
14:04
Speaker 1: have support or you're incapable of finding community, and especially
14:10
Speaker 1: now with the Internet, it can spiral to me.
14:14
Speaker 2: I've mentioned him before, but there's doctor Scott Galloway who
14:17
Speaker 2: has become very well known. He's a professor at Stern
14:20
Speaker 2: Business School, but he's written several books about isolated boys
14:27
Speaker 2: because of social media and what that turns into and
14:31
Speaker 2: how it can turn into a serial killer. Not just listen.
14:35
Speaker 2: I have a hard time, like nature or nurture, I
14:38
Speaker 2: don't always know, right. I mean, you see people that
14:41
Speaker 2: are brought up in the same home.
14:43
Speaker 1: That don't do the same things right.
14:45
Speaker 2: And so I don't know if Brian was born evil, right,
14:50
Speaker 2: it's almost easier.
14:51
Speaker 1: I know. I would like to know more about his parents.
14:54
Speaker 1: Do we have any The only thing I know. I
14:57
Speaker 1: just saw the one clip of the dad in his car,
15:01
Speaker 1: and you just think to yourself, like, oh my god,
15:06
Speaker 1: would I'm sitting next to my child who's driving the car,
15:09
Speaker 1: having no idea that they have committed these heinous, heinous,
15:14
Speaker 1: violent crimes. Like I just it's really unimaginable.
15:34
Speaker 2: On TikTok, I was watching Piers Morgan interview this person
15:39
Speaker 2: who was thirteen years old when he killed his four
15:42
Speaker 2: year old sister and stabbed her like fifteen times when
15:46
Speaker 2: he was thirteen. He's actually up for Pearl soon, and
15:49
Speaker 2: so it's maybe we'll do another collab on this. I
15:52
Speaker 2: don't know, yeah version of it, but I'm sure there
15:55
Speaker 2: probably is. But anyway, and interviewing the mother, right, was
16:00
Speaker 2: so much about the mother who had had another baby
16:03
Speaker 2: after her daughter was killed and her son went to jail.
16:05
Speaker 2: I really we're gonna move on, but the parents thing
16:09
Speaker 2: is so.
16:11
Speaker 1: Right, even in the two kids growing up in the
16:13
Speaker 1: same household, like having different experiences.
16:17
Speaker 2: And he's going to get let out of jail and
16:19
Speaker 2: everyone's telling her flee the country. He's a literal psychopath
16:23
Speaker 2: and he's going to do it again. So it's whatever
16:25
Speaker 2: that again. I'm sorry you guys, that's for another episode.
16:28
Speaker 2: But just thinking about that nature versus nurture, and like,
16:31
Speaker 2: you know, there's how does this happen? Is it because
16:37
Speaker 2: of you know, the way someone grows up and the
16:40
Speaker 2: loneliness and the social media of it all the isolation
16:44
Speaker 2: and the anger and the or I think maybe it's both.
16:47
Speaker 1: I think, right, I mean, in my armchair opinion, it
16:52
Speaker 1: probably is, but in most cases it's probably both. And
16:56
Speaker 1: then something puts you over the edge. But you know,
17:01
Speaker 1: it's it's some really, it's just terrifying. And you know,
17:06
Speaker 1: these these kids, the ones that have survived again, they
17:10
Speaker 1: carry this with them their whole lives. I mean, they're
17:12
Speaker 1: that PTSD. Those girls that were in the house, yes,
17:17
Speaker 1: and the one who made eye contact with yes, And
17:20
Speaker 1: then he felt like, why did let her get away? Right?
17:23
Speaker 2: That's another question, why?
17:25
Speaker 1: Right?
17:26
Speaker 2: And then the survivor's guilt. I hope that they don't
17:28
Speaker 2: have it. I pray that they don't have it, and
17:31
Speaker 2: they both there were a lot of questions in this
17:33
Speaker 2: case around you know, the girls didn't call nine one one.
17:37
Speaker 1: Until yes, so many hours later, so many.
17:40
Speaker 2: Hours later, And what was that about? And they said
17:42
Speaker 2: it was they were they were in the middle of
17:45
Speaker 2: being traumas, right, traumatized and definitely yeah, and no one
17:50
Speaker 2: could kind of and there was almost this like accusatory
17:54
Speaker 2: feel to that, and yeah, how could like these poor
17:58
Speaker 2: girls if there's he can't get worse.
18:02
Speaker 1: The text messages between these girls when they were in
18:05
Speaker 1: the house of I'm scared, No, I'm really scared. To
18:09
Speaker 1: come down here, cutting down like I just it's.
18:14
Speaker 2: But I did wonder too, like I I there were
18:17
Speaker 2: no calls to the parents like they must have just
18:19
Speaker 2: been so and I'm sure they've been questioned about it
18:21
Speaker 2: a lot, but they must have just been frozen in fear.
18:24
Speaker 2: That's all I can think. Yeah, so, you know, and
18:29
Speaker 2: God bless forever Kaylee, Madison, Xanna and Ethan, those beautiful
18:35
Speaker 2: young people. May they rest in peace. And now Ryan
18:39
Speaker 2: Cookwright is now trying to get himself. He pleaded so
18:43
Speaker 2: obviously not guilty. It is guilty, excuse me, and now
18:46
Speaker 2: he wants to go back and plead not guilty.
18:48
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, it did. There is this question of you know,
18:54
Speaker 1: as I said before, about what is justice for the families?
18:57
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's they What I love
19:00
Speaker 1: about the Idahome Owner's documentary is it they cover so
19:04
Speaker 1: many of the family member's feelings and they're all very different.
19:07
Speaker 1: You know. Some felt like, let's just put this to bed.
19:11
Speaker 1: He's in jail forever and we have to move on.
19:14
Speaker 1: Some are like, no, I want to hear him say
19:16
Speaker 1: why we They do want to go back to trial
19:20
Speaker 1: so that he can be put to death. You know,
19:23
Speaker 1: it's like it just shows you that the that the
19:25
Speaker 1: grief process is so individual. And one father, I.
19:29
Speaker 2: Think it was Zana's father who said, no, he's not
19:32
Speaker 2: just I want him dead. I can't remember which one.
19:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was Xana's parents yet.
19:37
Speaker 2: But the truth is, I almost feel like I prefer
19:42
Speaker 2: that he spends his life in a maximum security prison.
19:46
Speaker 1: It's got to be worse. It's got to be worse.
19:48
Speaker 1: That's I think it's gotta be worse.
19:51
Speaker 2: Right.
19:51
Speaker 1: And also there is this theory that they're part of
19:53
Speaker 1: the quote lockdown generation and that's why they didn't call
19:58
Speaker 1: anyone right away. I don't quite get what that is,
20:02
Speaker 1: like lockdown.
20:04
Speaker 2: Related, Like yeah, like is that that why boys go crazy?
20:07
Speaker 2: Or that's why because like all of a sudden they
20:11
Speaker 2: you know, lost their ship during lockdown. I don't. I
20:13
Speaker 2: don't really get it. I don't. I don't know how
20:15
Speaker 2: that factors in. But there is that, you know philosophy
20:18
Speaker 2: that those lockdown years.
20:21
Speaker 1: Oh like when they have an actor active shooter at
20:24
Speaker 1: schools and you and and you do those drills, like
20:27
Speaker 1: my daughter's school even does that. They've never had God forbid,
20:30
Speaker 1: not gotten wood. They've never had an incident like that,
20:32
Speaker 1: but they do drills regularly, so maybe the feeling of like, okay,
20:37
Speaker 1: you sort of stay in a place when something.
20:41
Speaker 2: Locked down you don't move is happening. Yes, yes, Okay,
20:43
Speaker 2: that now I understand. So I've heard of the theory too,
20:46
Speaker 2: but I didn't really put that together. Interesting, Okay, Well,
20:48
Speaker 2: moving on to our next horrific, unbearable story. Tell us
20:53
Speaker 2: about the Lindsay Clancy case.
20:56
Speaker 1: So Lindsay Clancy, she was January twenty twenty three. She
21:04
Speaker 1: was accused of killing her three children, Cora, who was five,
21:08
Speaker 1: Dawson is three, and Callen is eight months, inside their
21:11
Speaker 1: Massachusetts home. The prosecutors alleged that she murdered her children.
21:17
Speaker 1: Clancy has pleaded not guilty. The defense argues that she
21:21
Speaker 1: was suffering from a severe postpartum psychosis and was experiencing
21:25
Speaker 1: a mental mental health crisis at the time. In the
21:29
Speaker 1: moment and then after the killings. Immediately after, Clancy attempted
21:34
Speaker 1: suicide by jumping from a second story window and suffered
21:37
Speaker 1: life changing injuries. So her trial began in July, with
21:43
Speaker 1: the case focusing heavily on questions surrounding mental illness, medication,
21:48
Speaker 1: and criminal responsibility. So this is definitely one of these
21:54
Speaker 1: cases where the central question isn't only what happened, but
21:58
Speaker 1: why and what was happening psychologically at LISTA.
22:01
Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking that, right, And but this case,
22:05
Speaker 2: I think because postpartum is such a serious, such a serious,
22:10
Speaker 2: serious condition that we can almost you know, justify, not justify,
22:17
Speaker 2: but sort of justify it in our minds more than
22:20
Speaker 2: explain something like you know, brought not more like the others.
22:24
Speaker 1: I think who.
22:26
Speaker 2: You know, obviously he was also mentally disturbed, and she
22:33
Speaker 2: was obviously mentally disturbed. I don't know where you draw
22:36
Speaker 2: the line, but I have a lot more sympathy for her.
22:39
Speaker 1: Me too than I do. I mean, listen, I don't
22:41
Speaker 1: know about.
22:41
Speaker 2: Any sympathy for hand. I should say that.
22:44
Speaker 1: I did not have severe postpartum, and I had full
22:48
Speaker 1: support of a great husband and partner family. You know,
22:51
Speaker 1: I have had a very nice situation. I still was
22:56
Speaker 1: not right in the brain emotionally for a while, and
23:00
Speaker 1: I did not have any kind of severe postpartum. So
23:03
Speaker 1: when imagining someone who has three children, five being the oldest,
23:09
Speaker 1: like that's not even you're barely out of the woods
23:11
Speaker 1: of like twenty four to seven having to deal with
23:15
Speaker 1: a child, and she also was a nick you nurse,
23:19
Speaker 1: I believe, right, and so she was just constantly taking
23:24
Speaker 1: care of people all the time. And in her what
23:27
Speaker 1: I found so so sad were the excerpts from her
23:33
Speaker 1: journal where she literally maps out, I do not feel right.
23:38
Speaker 1: I can't do end this anymore. I don't I'm not
23:42
Speaker 1: emotionally stable, like she was saying it, like I can't
23:46
Speaker 1: take care of another thing for another second. And then
23:50
Speaker 1: looking at the just array of drugs that she was on,
23:56
Speaker 1: prescribed drugs for depression, for all these things that you know,
24:02
Speaker 1: it just feels like it's a combination of people just
24:06
Speaker 1: not hurry, things falling through the cracks, and not taking
24:10
Speaker 1: a woman seriously when she's saying, I am in all probably.
24:15
Speaker 2: Well, you know I think that I yes, I definitely
24:20
Speaker 2: think that that's what happened. I also think that it's
24:24
Speaker 2: almost evidenced by the fact that a mother killing their
24:28
Speaker 2: own children is going against every instinct, every human instinct.
24:34
Speaker 2: And so for whatever reason, as a society, I feel like,
24:38
Speaker 2: at least we'll speak just for me when something like
24:42
Speaker 2: that happens. I don't know, I have some sort of
24:45
Speaker 2: my brain goes to what happened to this poor woman? Yes,
24:48
Speaker 2: that she would have been so out of her mind
24:54
Speaker 2: to kill her babies. And then, by the way, go
24:57
Speaker 2: to jail. Don't go to jail. Get who cares your life?
25:00
Speaker 1: How do you?
25:00
Speaker 2: And then how do you live with that? And but again,
25:04
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's mental illness. Is mental illness,
25:09
Speaker 2: and it's a weird thing, right because I again, it's
25:11
Speaker 2: also messed up because I do feel for her, and
25:16
Speaker 2: I do too, I don't feel for him. Nope.
25:21
Speaker 1: Well right, so then what what is that?
25:23
Speaker 2: I mean?
25:23
Speaker 1: Okay, partly because you and I both understand what it
25:27
Speaker 1: is to have a child and the absolute there's just
25:32
Speaker 1: no way on earth I can imagine doing something like this, agreed. So,
25:38
Speaker 1: so is is it just that or is it his
25:41
Speaker 1: was like premeditated? And they're trying to argue that Lindsay's
25:48
Speaker 1: was premeditated because she sent her husband to the store.
25:53
Speaker 1: But this also, this to me feels more like that
25:58
Speaker 1: that kind of like abuse behavior, and you like crack,
26:02
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, if you're a woman
26:04
Speaker 1: who No, I'm not saying her husband's abusing her, That's
26:06
Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, when you are
26:08
Speaker 1: experiencing something that is abusive to her, like she her
26:13
Speaker 1: mental state, an emotional state, was deteriorating, and so if
26:19
Speaker 1: it feels like that's getting worse and worse and worse,
26:22
Speaker 1: and the kids are making it worse and worse and worse,
26:25
Speaker 1: and I can't, like, I don't know how to do
26:26
Speaker 1: any of it. You yeah, you know they're trying to
26:30
Speaker 1: say that she did this that purposefully where coburger, that is,
26:38
Speaker 1: without a doubt premeditated.
26:40
Speaker 2: Well, who knows when she cracked me, but she cracked
26:42
Speaker 2: when she told him to go right, you know. So
26:45
Speaker 2: I'm reading also a book called The Mad Wife, which
26:48
Speaker 2: by the way, I highly recommend, about a woman experiencing
26:53
Speaker 2: horrible postpartum. And it's in the fifties.
26:56
Speaker 1: Right where that's where nobody knows.
27:00
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no.
27:01
Speaker 1: So my mom told me a story. My mom my
27:03
Speaker 1: sisters was born and was born in nineteen sixty four.
27:06
Speaker 1: She's the oldest and her she my mom had probably
27:11
Speaker 1: what would be considered a postpartum and she said she
27:15
Speaker 1: went to and she didn't tell me this. I was
27:17
Speaker 1: in my twenties and I started asking all these questions
27:20
Speaker 1: about other things. And she went to a psychologist and
27:24
Speaker 1: she said, oh, he told me that because she wasn't
27:27
Speaker 1: feeling right. She was like, I don't like, I'm sad.
27:30
Speaker 1: I don't want to get out of bed, like I
27:32
Speaker 1: don't want to do things. And he said to her,
27:34
Speaker 1: you have a child. Now you got to get out
27:38
Speaker 1: of bed and take care of this kid. You have
27:41
Speaker 1: to get it together and do this, like you have
27:45
Speaker 1: a husband who has a great job, and get it together, lady.
27:50
Speaker 1: And she literally said, you know, so I just got
27:52
Speaker 1: it together. And I've always thought about that, like, oh
27:57
Speaker 1: my god.
27:58
Speaker 2: It's like malpractice, right, because yeah, that's so fucked up.
28:03
Speaker 2: It is so and so I got it together though,
28:07
Speaker 2: that's the that's yes, It's like you know, is that
28:10
Speaker 2: is that your mommy swift kick in the ass, Like yeah,
28:14
Speaker 2: you know, I mean I I have been in therapy
28:17
Speaker 2: for ten million years.
28:20
Speaker 1: Me too.
28:20
Speaker 2: My psychiatrist has never once said to me, just get
28:24
Speaker 2: it together, right, you know, so right right? I don't
28:29
Speaker 2: know from that.
28:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I've watched some of the the
28:35
Speaker 1: courtroom proceedings with Lindsey Clancy, and you know, I just
28:41
Speaker 1: see a woman who is so she's just deeply depressed, Like, damn,
28:50
Speaker 1: I see this person who is just like she's almost
28:54
Speaker 1: kind of uh, I just yeah, like in a trance
28:59
Speaker 1: sort of of state.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, And again I don't think everybody's fighting for her.
29:04
Speaker 2: You know, it was premeditative. Does it fucking matter? Like?
29:08
Speaker 2: What is she going to go on with her life?
29:10
Speaker 2: How does? How does your life go on?
29:11
Speaker 1: It?
29:12
Speaker 2: I think I don't know this because again, you know,
29:15
Speaker 2: human beings are built to want to survive, but I
29:19
Speaker 2: don't think i'd want to be alive how anyway, what
29:21
Speaker 2: do you fucking right?
29:24
Speaker 1: You know, it's awful like she can't There's no way
29:27
Speaker 1: this is not a psychotic human being who you know?
29:31
Speaker 2: She?
29:33
Speaker 1: I do wonder how how she will go on regardless
29:39
Speaker 1: in prisoner, and I guess the question would is if
29:42
Speaker 1: she can be sent to like a more of a
29:46
Speaker 1: mental hospital facility rather than prison. And you know that's
29:51
Speaker 1: a whole other set of questions. Are those things really rehabilitative?
29:55
Speaker 1: Are they not?
29:56
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, it's an today and today, in
30:00
Speaker 2: you know, the divisive world that we live in, there
30:04
Speaker 2: are politicians who say open the jails, abolished jails. I'm not.
30:14
Speaker 2: I don't subscribe to those politics, but there are for
30:18
Speaker 2: whatever reason. I think there's thought, well, you can't get rehabilitated, right,
30:25
Speaker 2: there's no rehabilitation or is there right?
30:28
Speaker 1: Well, this is what is interesting in the I took
30:32
Speaker 1: a tour of San Quentin earlier, a couple of months ago,
30:36
Speaker 1: like a private tour with some people that we know
30:41
Speaker 1: who are involved over there, and I was blown away.
30:46
Speaker 1: My tour was given by four incarcerated men who are
30:50
Speaker 1: currently incarcerated. All have murdered someone at the very least.
30:56
Speaker 1: All have had life sentences that are being perhaps reduced.
31:02
Speaker 1: Two of them were up for parole. They gave us
31:05
Speaker 1: the tour, and part of their rehabilitation has been to
31:10
Speaker 1: talk about their crimes, to be able to be accountable,
31:14
Speaker 1: and they've been given these opportunities. We as California voters,
31:19
Speaker 1: it's a whole other conversation, but we voted for this,
31:22
Speaker 1: which I didn't even realize, the prison reform, and essentially
31:27
Speaker 1: it's giving all of these resources to create to set
31:31
Speaker 1: them up for success for when they leave prison. And
31:36
Speaker 1: it's definitely an uphill battle and it certainly isn't working
31:40
Speaker 1: for everyone. But I was really, really moved by these
31:44
Speaker 1: four men who were articulate, They cared about what they
31:49
Speaker 1: were saying. They brought us around the property. There is
31:51
Speaker 1: a building that's a journalism building. They have their own newspaper.
31:55
Speaker 1: They have a filmmaking side where they may films about
32:00
Speaker 1: their own experience and what they have. Like, so there
32:04
Speaker 1: is something to say about truly rehabilitating people.
32:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I like that. I like it in theory.
32:12
Speaker 2: I hope I like it also in practice. I'm just
32:14
Speaker 2: not sure.
32:14
Speaker 1: Yet, but that's fair.
32:17
Speaker 2: Can people like for instance, this kid I was telling
32:20
Speaker 2: you about, his name was Paris. I just remember that
32:21
Speaker 2: Peers was in So the psychiatrists they were also, but
32:24
Speaker 2: they already knew this, but they were watching the interview,
32:26
Speaker 2: said he is a psychopath. So a sociopath and a
32:29
Speaker 2: psychopath and a psychopath cannot change, can't change, right, So
32:34
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's how they would label Brian.
32:35
Speaker 2: But some of the behaviors of behaviors of this person
32:37
Speaker 2: who's not a kid anymore in his twenties early twenties,
32:41
Speaker 2: the dead look in his eyes, the lack of emotion,
32:46
Speaker 2: and also the manipulation.
32:48
Speaker 1: Coburger has that so right, So.
32:50
Speaker 2: According to these doctors. That's a psychopath, that's not something.
32:55
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what you do, there is no realitation for
32:59
Speaker 2: those criminals, murderers, and so I don't I don't know.
33:04
Speaker 2: And can some you know, trick the system I and
33:10
Speaker 2: then murder again. It's just there's so much, there's just
33:13
Speaker 2: so much, you know, to consider. I guess I love
33:16
Speaker 2: the idea that there is rehabilitation, even if there's not
33:19
Speaker 2: a release from prison, but that somehow these people that
33:23
Speaker 2: are not don't feel human become, you know, somehow part
33:27
Speaker 2: of humanity.
33:27
Speaker 1: To your point, I don't think in particular these four gentlemen,
33:31
Speaker 1: for example, I don't think these were psychopathic people. I
33:36
Speaker 1: think they are people that were put in circumstances without
33:40
Speaker 1: resources and without certain things, and made decisions that were
33:45
Speaker 1: very bad.
33:46
Speaker 2: And yes, and then there's a difference. That's what the
33:48
Speaker 2: psychiatrists are saying, that these not every murderer cannot be rehabilitated, right, So,
33:56
Speaker 2: but they were convinced that Paris could not be And
34:00
Speaker 2: like lindsay.
34:01
Speaker 1: And he's going to did you say he's on parole or.
34:04
Speaker 2: He will coven he's coming up for us as thirteen
34:08
Speaker 2: because he was convicted as you know, as a kid,
34:11
Speaker 2: as a minor, as a minor, right, exactly so, But
34:14
Speaker 2: like in Lindsay's case, I don't know. I would definitely
34:18
Speaker 2: vote for rehabilitation, I know, I mean, and I wonder
34:21
Speaker 2: if there's part of it that's just because a woman,
34:24
Speaker 2: because she's a woman who was in such severe postpart
34:28
Speaker 2: Is that what is tugging at us?
34:29
Speaker 1: Well? I think it certainly partly, right, But I also
34:34
Speaker 1: think that she when you look at her, I haven't
34:37
Speaker 1: done like this extreme deep dive on her, but when
34:40
Speaker 1: I see her and the things that she's said, I
34:44
Speaker 1: see a person who is broken and not broken, like broken,
34:49
Speaker 1: emotionally broken, and that that feels to me like there
34:55
Speaker 1: is remorse. There is you know, a person who can't
35:01
Speaker 1: even remedy or process what she's done in an emotion way.
35:05
Speaker 2: Yes, But then again, if we're actually watching it happen,
35:09
Speaker 2: we're watching her kill her baby.
35:12
Speaker 1: I can't feel the same way. I can't even.
35:16
Speaker 2: And then say we feel for her. I don't know.
35:19
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I partly thought, and again I've
35:23
Speaker 1: obviously never been in this situation, but for moments I thought, okay, well,
35:28
Speaker 1: wait a second, if she's feeling all this stuff. Why
35:31
Speaker 1: not just take her own life and not her kids?
35:34
Speaker 1: Like I. But that's that's the same person. That's I'm
35:38
Speaker 1: sitting here in my chair with, you know, a relatively
35:42
Speaker 1: sane mind, and that's not you know, there's no way
35:46
Speaker 1: for me to understand.
35:48
Speaker 2: That, right, right, I don't know. And sometimes I feel like,
35:53
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not gandhi. I can't just forgive everyone.
35:58
Speaker 2: And I guess maybe I should be, I should be
36:00
Speaker 2: striving for that. I don't know. I don't It'd be
36:03
Speaker 2: hard for me to imagine feeling warm and fuzzy about
36:07
Speaker 2: any psychopath, right, And like you watch Brian, and I
36:10
Speaker 2: think that's part of what his resonated with all of us,
36:16
Speaker 2: the eight million plus people that are watching it, is
36:19
Speaker 2: he's a psychopath. There is no nothing human there.
36:23
Speaker 1: Nothing human there? And where are his parents on all
36:27
Speaker 1: of this? Do you know? I didn't see them in
36:30
Speaker 1: the courtroom, Ember. I haven't heard any of theirs, so I.
36:35
Speaker 2: Feel like they were in the court I think I remember,
36:38
Speaker 2: not from the dock. I think I remember the mother.
36:41
Speaker 2: There was footage at the beginning of the mother in
36:45
Speaker 2: hysterics in the courtroom. Oh okay, I have to ask
36:48
Speaker 2: my best friend AI. But I think that that was
36:51
Speaker 2: the case that she was there and obviously she was
36:53
Speaker 2: in hysterics but really screaming. But I could be making
36:56
Speaker 2: it up.
36:57
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, the mom and his sister.
37:01
Speaker 2: So I don't know, then imagine being his mom.
37:19
Speaker 1: What responsibility do we think that? And this is so
37:24
Speaker 1: you know, the parents personal I was going to say
37:28
Speaker 1: the media have when covering real people's tragedies.
37:34
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that there should probably be
37:39
Speaker 2: stricter guidelines, I think. And I think that, like you
37:43
Speaker 2: were saying earlier, every victim, every family member, it hits differently, right.
37:48
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are some who want this crime to
37:52
Speaker 2: be exposed, others who want it buried, you know, some
37:57
Speaker 2: that want the murderer's name out there so that everyone knows,
38:02
Speaker 2: and some that don't want to give that person a name.
38:06
Speaker 2: I think it probably there's probably a spectrum. So what's
38:09
Speaker 2: the responsibility I guess to report the facts? I don't know,
38:14
Speaker 2: as they as I don't know, you what do you think?
38:19
Speaker 1: I mean? It's it's sort of a possible question to answer.
38:23
Speaker 1: I think, certainly, yes, reporting the facts and also just
38:28
Speaker 1: giving an emotional in my opinion, an emotional respect, and
38:35
Speaker 1: a general grace when talking about any of these things.
38:42
Speaker 1: And I think there can always there's a fine line
38:44
Speaker 1: what's exploitative what is actually giving information and educating people.
38:49
Speaker 1: But I think we all can tell the difference. And
38:52
Speaker 1: I think there are some entities that are very hell
38:56
Speaker 1: bent on just taking the headline and get as much
39:01
Speaker 1: attention as they can and exploiting everybody to the gills. Yeah,
39:05
Speaker 1: And I think it's pretty clear when that's happening and
39:07
Speaker 1: when that isn't happening, And I just would like there
39:11
Speaker 1: to be a little more care.
39:13
Speaker 2: I guess I would too. So in those cases, how
39:17
Speaker 2: should the media alter their responses if it's a case
39:21
Speaker 2: like that.
39:22
Speaker 1: I feel like it definitely should because this also struck
39:27
Speaker 1: me in the Idaho murders doc. How you know kids today,
39:33
Speaker 1: young people, everything is on video, right, They're taking everything
39:37
Speaker 1: with their phones. All of the social media is about visually,
39:41
Speaker 1: you know, not even capturing everything, just proving that you
39:44
Speaker 1: did it or something. And so I think there is
39:48
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of you know, attention and kind
39:54
Speaker 1: of ego inflation that young people get by being seen
40:00
Speaker 1: in this way, by having their picture taken by things
40:02
Speaker 1: being on video. So I think it's we have to
40:05
Speaker 1: be really careful about not exploiting that, you know, like
40:09
Speaker 1: showing these things all the time for young people's sake,
40:13
Speaker 1: because they I don't know if they can differentiate between
40:16
Speaker 1: what's a TikTok video or what's a snapchat thing and
40:20
Speaker 1: what's real life, you know. I it's like, I think
40:23
Speaker 1: we are getting into a really dangerous area in this way.
40:28
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is what we do right,
40:31
Speaker 2: we do true crime And at the end of the day,
40:36
Speaker 2: is it helping is it hurting? I mean, I'm voting
40:40
Speaker 2: for it's helping. I think it's voting for.
40:44
Speaker 1: I think so I think what we are doing anyway
40:47
Speaker 1: certainly like my moral compass. When before I even said
40:51
Speaker 1: yes to doing this, I checked myself of like, why
40:55
Speaker 1: am I so fascinated by this? And can I do
40:59
Speaker 1: this post podcast in a way that will make me
41:03
Speaker 1: feel that is an alignment with who I am and
41:08
Speaker 1: what my spirit is and what I want to put
41:10
Speaker 1: out into the world. And I really had to think
41:13
Speaker 1: about it, and I said, yes I can, because I
41:18
Speaker 1: care about humanity and how do we get there? And
41:21
Speaker 1: if we don't start to understand what brings people to
41:26
Speaker 1: these places. We're never going to stop it. And also
41:31
Speaker 1: victims and the families they get some many receive healing
41:38
Speaker 1: from being able to share their stories, their loved ones,
41:43
Speaker 1: their their spirits.
41:44
Speaker 2: May be remembered and showed. Yes, and I agree with
41:48
Speaker 2: everything you just said. I think that also it's there's
41:51
Speaker 2: something that can be you know, many of these the
41:56
Speaker 2: human spirit is so resilient, So it can be watching
42:00
Speaker 2: the victims their families there and watching the resilience, right,
42:05
Speaker 2: and then watching what they do with the tragedies that
42:09
Speaker 2: they've lived through. And so many you see so many victims,
42:15
Speaker 2: you know, creating a better world, yes, because of.
42:19
Speaker 1: Of what they've gone through.
42:20
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that's so I all of that.
42:23
Speaker 2: And then I also think that we are able to
42:28
Speaker 2: put distance between ourselves and what we're watching. This is
42:33
Speaker 2: this is you know, there's so many god, I mean
42:36
Speaker 2: CSI crime, whatever it's called. And like people are so
42:38
Speaker 2: intoll so able to watch some of this right because
42:42
Speaker 2: it's sickening, and you just it's become so if you
42:45
Speaker 2: can really you know, feel that this is these are people,
42:50
Speaker 2: these are this is this really freaking happened right then
42:53
Speaker 2: it becomes almost too hard. But again I think that
42:56
Speaker 2: we have as humans the ability to sort of like
42:59
Speaker 2: separate ourselves sometimes and watch it more like a story.
43:04
Speaker 1: Then and but see, then that's the question, right Is
43:08
Speaker 1: that a good thing?
43:09
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I definitely think that that's you know,
43:14
Speaker 2: you look at my daughter, cross eyed, she starts to
43:16
Speaker 2: cry if there's a dog on the street. I mean,
43:19
Speaker 2: she's just like that, or a god forbid, an old
43:21
Speaker 2: person who is not having having lunch, a loan rache,
43:24
Speaker 2: she's gone for two. But she loves true crime, Like
43:26
Speaker 2: what is that about? She loves to watch it and
43:30
Speaker 2: you know, I don't.
43:32
Speaker 1: I don't, So for her it is tapping into some
43:35
Speaker 1: empathetic part of herself and her kind of like I.
43:38
Speaker 2: Don't, I don't know, Like why there's so why are
43:40
Speaker 2: so many Americans and I'm sure whatever people all over
43:43
Speaker 2: the world but that are fascinated. Is it because like us,
43:47
Speaker 2: they like to see also the best in humanity or
43:49
Speaker 2: because it's just fascinating to watch monsters, you know, and
43:52
Speaker 2: watch I don't. I don't know. And we should have
43:55
Speaker 2: on I guess we should have on an expert And.
44:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do I mean any, I love talking to
44:02
Speaker 1: the psychologists and the psychiatrists. I've really enjoyed some of
44:09
Speaker 1: those interviews the most. And then I have like my
44:12
Speaker 1: own little personal questions on the side.
44:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
44:16
Speaker 1: I do too.
44:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean right, it's it's and Sky and
44:24
Speaker 2: Joe and like you're doing this and this is your thing, right,
44:27
Speaker 2: this is Sky's nieche I never I was. When I
44:31
Speaker 2: spoke to her, I was so impressed. She what a brilliant,
44:35
Speaker 2: lovely sympathetic woman, because you know, and this is this
44:43
Speaker 2: is her jam and so why does she think that
44:46
Speaker 2: it's and Joe too?
44:47
Speaker 1: He's he's really great and doing it for the great reasons. Yeah. Well,
44:55
Speaker 1: I love these our chats so much. I hope I
44:57
Speaker 1: hope the listeners do too. I do. I really love that.
45:00
Speaker 2: I feel like it's just talking to you is so easy.
45:04
Speaker 2: And also there's like this, and I also feel like
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Speaker 2: I hope the listeners feel this. There's just this no
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Speaker 2: judgmental thing that goes on, right, and this is all
45:14
Speaker 2: such sticky, dirty, differentult subject matter.
45:18
Speaker 1: Right, They're right. There's no sort of simple answer. There's
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Speaker 1: no way to like put a little bow on things.
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Speaker 1: It's just moncky all right.
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Speaker 2: Well, I love you, sister, I love you. Thanks guys,
45:30
Speaker 2: Bye guys,