Latest / WCHS Network Podcasts / Sports Gambling - With Guest Attorney Brandon Lawhead - Let's Talk with Carl Lee and Hollis Lewis

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Sports Gambling - With Guest Attorney Brandon Lawhead - Let's Talk with Carl Lee and Hollis Lewis · WCHS Network Podcasts

0:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta work.
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Speaker 2: You gotta work, ry Shin. It's mine gotta show. Everybody
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Speaker 2: is my sign. You gotta wurk cry shine another mind.
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Speaker 2: I'm trying to die because day line don't tell you
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Speaker 2: gotta burk.
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Speaker 3: Welcome to Let's Talk with carl Lee and frequent guest
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Speaker 3: hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
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Speaker 3: community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
0:32
Speaker 3: conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
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Speaker 3: Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
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Speaker 3: Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
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Speaker 3: by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
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Speaker 3: one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
0:52
Speaker 3: on Let's Talk.
0:54
Speaker 1: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
0:57
Speaker 1: and we're missing one of our our co hosts, Lise
1:01
Speaker 1: ODI's out today, but we do have Hollis Lewis and
1:05
Speaker 1: Hello and Hollan's.
1:06
Speaker 2: One of the interesting things today.
1:09
Speaker 1: Of the topic that we're gonna kind of address is
1:12
Speaker 1: one that everybody probably knows and trying to figure out
1:17
Speaker 1: it's a it's it's a lot of legal stuff involved
1:22
Speaker 1: that I don't think the average person really knows. So
1:26
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about what you what, what
1:30
Speaker 1: you what you're thinking, and then we've got a guest
1:34
Speaker 1: that i'll introduce in just a second.
1:35
Speaker 2: I just want to kind of see where you are
1:37
Speaker 2: just as an overview.
1:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, as you mentioned, there's a lot of illegal things
1:41
Speaker 4: as far as you know criminality and also you know
1:45
Speaker 4: policies within specifically the of the n b A. And
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Speaker 4: while these two stories are sort of cross reference between
1:53
Speaker 4: one another, they're actually two individual charges. So you have
1:58
Speaker 4: Chauncey Billups, who is alleged to have participated or been
2:02
Speaker 4: a part of underground poker operations in which the games
2:06
Speaker 4: were quote unquote rigged. And you have Damon Jones, who
2:10
Speaker 4: was allegedly given insider information along with Terry Roseer of
2:16
Speaker 4: the I think Damon Jones was a former player and
2:19
Speaker 4: Terry Roseier is with the with the Miami Heat. So
2:22
Speaker 4: these are two different issues as far as going on,
2:25
Speaker 4: but they all revolve around the same gambling. Yes, and again,
2:29
Speaker 4: just before we get started, coming from a legal background,
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Speaker 4: I always like to pit out this disclaimer that you know,
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Speaker 4: we're talking about this from an analysis standpoint to trying
2:40
Speaker 4: to see, you know, how this is going to affect
2:43
Speaker 4: things moving forward, the bigger question of gambling. But all
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Speaker 4: the individuals which we are mentioning are innocent until proven guilty.
2:51
Speaker 4: So as of now, these are just charges and these
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Speaker 4: individuals are innocent.
2:55
Speaker 2: All right, So.
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Speaker 1: I'm glad you gave that that disclaimer there. So everybody
3:03
Speaker 1: kind of knows that when you play sports, there's usually
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Speaker 1: somebody that's in and around you to kind of to
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Speaker 1: manage you.
3:10
Speaker 2: And one of.
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Speaker 1: And today I have Brandon Lawhead, who is a guy
3:16
Speaker 1: who I ended up meeting like right at the end
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Speaker 1: of my career, and he did a lot of things
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Speaker 1: to help me make the transition, to financially make the transition,
3:29
Speaker 1: and all of those kind of things. So I and
3:31
Speaker 1: so I thought about, because of all of this stuff
3:34
Speaker 1: that's happening, I thought he would be a great guest.
3:37
Speaker 1: So I wanted to make sure that I if I
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Speaker 1: could get him, and I do have him.
3:41
Speaker 2: So he's on the phone. So Brandon say hello to everybody.
3:47
Speaker 5: Hello, everybody, Hell you, I'm good.
3:50
Speaker 1: So so Brandon, I'm going to like jump right into
3:53
Speaker 1: this thing, because like I have no legal background of
3:59
Speaker 1: any anything that can make any kind of really true claim.
4:04
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna go back and say, back in.
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Speaker 1: The day, you know, when we were in Minneapolis and
4:11
Speaker 1: we you saw all the games, you were part of it.
4:15
Speaker 1: You were representing people I'm playing and all of that
4:18
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And I knew that, and everybody knew
4:23
Speaker 1: that gambling was kind of the off. You could that
4:25
Speaker 1: it was the no No of football. And I know
4:28
Speaker 1: we're talking about basketball. But do you when you think
4:33
Speaker 1: about this, where is the agent in this thing?
4:37
Speaker 2: You know?
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Speaker 1: Because what what I mean, wouldn't you be able to
4:42
Speaker 1: have stepped in or said something or do these guys
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Speaker 1: not have them now or or what do you what's
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Speaker 1: your thought?
4:48
Speaker 5: Well, I think first of all, I wanted to maybe
4:53
Speaker 5: step back. You mentioned, you know what it was like
4:56
Speaker 5: in your era, and in your era, Pete Roselle was
5:01
Speaker 5: the commissioner. Pete Roselle in the NFL wanted nothing to
5:06
Speaker 5: do with gambling. He wanted to go as far away
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Speaker 5: from it as he could. Even CBS, you know member
5:14
Speaker 5: that used to have Jimmy the Creek on, Yeah, and
5:17
Speaker 5: who was the guy that was setting the line embedding.
5:20
Speaker 5: But you know, they were very careful. They never said
5:23
Speaker 5: like three points or you know, seven points. They never
5:27
Speaker 5: used points. They would say, you know, I think the
5:29
Speaker 5: Vikings will win by a field goal, or I think
5:31
Speaker 5: they'll win by a touchdown. But they never started putting
5:34
Speaker 5: points out there because they didn't want the affiliation with gambling.
5:40
Speaker 5: Of course, that goes back to you know, the Black
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Speaker 5: Sox and all of the you know stuff that went
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Speaker 5: on you know earlier so And I think it's interesting
5:51
Speaker 5: because I was out in New York and Chuck Foreman
5:55
Speaker 5: was going to be announcing the NFL Draft for the
6:00
Speaker 5: Minnesota Vikings, and I saw Roger Goodell and we had
6:05
Speaker 5: lunch with Roger, and Roger was talking about how the
6:09
Speaker 5: NFL Draft was getting more viewership than you know, the
6:15
Speaker 5: Super Bowl. Wow, and and and so. And that was
6:20
Speaker 5: back in twenty thirteen. And of course what's driving that
6:24
Speaker 5: is fantasy football. Fantasy football is now really a lot
6:31
Speaker 5: of your viewers. You know, back in the eighties, fans
6:36
Speaker 5: were much more about my team. My team is the Vikings.
6:40
Speaker 5: I am, you know, I'm rooting for my Vikings, and
6:43
Speaker 5: so on and so forth. And now you've got people
6:46
Speaker 5: that are you know, cheering for individuals because of their
6:50
Speaker 5: fantasy football team, see and which is good and you know,
6:55
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of you know, good that comes
6:58
Speaker 5: out of that. But all these sports agencies have now
7:04
Speaker 5: you know, I think there was a sense that, uh,
7:08
Speaker 5: the mafia was basically defeated, you know, based upon the
7:13
Speaker 5: prosecutions in the eighties and so on and so forth,
7:16
Speaker 5: and that that wasn't really a problem anymore. And I
7:19
Speaker 5: think all of the major sports uh you know, leagues
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Speaker 5: have now really gotten into gambling because there's a lot
7:27
Speaker 5: of money there and you even see that in the media.
7:30
Speaker 5: You see the media is now you know, sponsored by
7:35
Speaker 5: these casinos.
7:36
Speaker 4: And a lot of them have their own gaming books,
7:40
Speaker 4: like esp different things.
7:42
Speaker 2: So let me ask you this.
7:43
Speaker 4: As far as what I'm hearing you say so far,
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Speaker 4: I think you're talking about the bigger cultural shift that's happening.
7:51
Speaker 4: And now, you know, gambling is a part of sort
7:54
Speaker 4: of the sports experience. So so within that frame of mind,
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Speaker 4: and when we look at these particular stories where you
8:03
Speaker 4: have guys giving out insider information, you have guys you know,
8:07
Speaker 4: with with rig games, and I have a specific question
8:10
Speaker 4: about that. You know what sort of warning or what
8:15
Speaker 4: sort of a what are you telling your clients about
8:18
Speaker 4: participating in these sort of activities.
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Speaker 5: Well, I think, first of all, you know, it is
8:26
Speaker 5: impossible if this is if you read the indictment and
8:31
Speaker 5: the complaint. They are using contacts where they can you know,
8:37
Speaker 5: special contacts where they can see on the back of
8:40
Speaker 5: the card in alleged you know, fraudulent card games. They're
8:48
Speaker 5: using various electronic methods to do that. Well, who would
8:53
Speaker 5: know that, No agent would know it, and no player
8:56
Speaker 5: would know it, you know, I mean Chauncey Billups if
8:59
Speaker 5: he's you know, the thing is is that, you know,
9:03
Speaker 5: people want the experience of playing cards with a great athlete,
9:08
Speaker 5: you know, so it's like, hey, play poker with Carl Lee.
9:11
Speaker 5: Well that's cool, that'll be fun. You know, Carl's a
9:13
Speaker 5: good guy, and so people are you know. So that's
9:16
Speaker 5: how they're luring or they're getting people to come to
9:20
Speaker 5: the table, and the athlete's going to get paid and
9:23
Speaker 5: that's as far as it goes. So if I were
9:26
Speaker 5: you know, we don't know the facts, right, I think
9:31
Speaker 5: I would find it very hard to believe that Chauncey
9:34
Speaker 5: Billups knows that these card games are rigged. I just
9:39
Speaker 5: find that really hard to believe. I think it's more like, hey,
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Speaker 5: Chauncey will pay you X number of dollars to come
9:46
Speaker 5: and do this card game, and Chauncey's like, sure, sounds
9:51
Speaker 5: good to me. And that's as far as it goes.
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Speaker 4: He was because when I read it in it, like
9:56
Speaker 4: I said, I've read it pretty extensively about it too,
10:00
Speaker 4: it seemed like when you're talking about, like you know,
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Speaker 4: even Kevin Garnett or Chauncey, Billups or Damon Jones, those
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Speaker 4: who have been either mentioned or in or charged in
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Speaker 4: relation to this scheme, that they were sort of just
10:11
Speaker 4: the bait. And then you know, you have a whole
10:13
Speaker 4: slew of other people behind the scenes sort of setting
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Speaker 4: up the stage for these rigged games.
10:19
Speaker 2: But the question from just just.
10:22
Speaker 5: Wait one question, one thing though on that bait. The
10:26
Speaker 5: word bait, I've read that, but that's an explosive term
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Speaker 5: because that's implying that they're part of the scheme. And
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Speaker 5: I really question that. Okay, I think a lot of
10:43
Speaker 5: athletes get themselves mixed up with people that are bad,
10:48
Speaker 5: but the athlete goes in thinking it's it's good and
10:51
Speaker 5: Let's remember in the indictment itself, the indictment talks about
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Speaker 5: money laundering. They're using shell company these as fronts for
11:02
Speaker 5: laundering the money and everything. So I don't know what
11:04
Speaker 5: the facts are on this, but it could be like, hey,
11:07
Speaker 5: this is a you know, Sports USA company. We do stuff,
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Speaker 5: you know, to raise money for kids and youth sports
11:15
Speaker 5: or whatever. And Chaunsey's like, yeah, cool, that's cool. That
11:18
Speaker 5: comes good. So we don't know, and I and I
11:21
Speaker 5: just am I. Most of the time I see in
11:26
Speaker 5: athletes people that have a good intent and they want
11:31
Speaker 5: to do well, and they want to use their fame
11:35
Speaker 5: to help others. And of course, you know, doing a
11:38
Speaker 5: card game with an athlete is no different than an
11:41
Speaker 5: autograph session or you know, a conversation or a discussion
11:47
Speaker 5: type session, where it's just an opportunity for a person
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Speaker 5: to hang out with an athlete.
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Speaker 4: So from your opinion, from again what I'm here, and
11:55
Speaker 4: I think I'm with you on this, your opinion is
11:58
Speaker 4: probably you know, Chauncey Bill was asked to, hey, host
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Speaker 4: this card game. We're going to raise money or we
12:05
Speaker 4: have this business or something that we're doing over here.
12:07
Speaker 4: Could you come in, guys, want to play with you
12:10
Speaker 4: so that way we can raise the profile of this game.
12:13
Speaker 4: And again from your opinion, which is stating is that
12:16
Speaker 4: Chauncey Billupp probably didn't know all the other things that
12:20
Speaker 4: were going on behind it, particularly the rigged part of
12:23
Speaker 4: the game.
12:24
Speaker 5: Well, and remember this is organized crime that they're charging too, right,
12:29
Speaker 5: So the organized crime those guys are sitting there, they're
12:33
Speaker 5: very good at rigging things, right. And I just really
12:38
Speaker 5: question if Chauncey Billups is going to throw his career
12:41
Speaker 5: away on a card game. I would say, you know,
12:46
Speaker 5: he would not do that. And again I know nothing
12:49
Speaker 5: other than what I've read and my sense in my intuition.
12:53
Speaker 5: But you know, Chauncey Billups has spent a lifetime and
12:58
Speaker 5: I'm just using him as an example here. He spent
13:00
Speaker 5: a lifetime, you know, gaining his reputation and then to
13:04
Speaker 5: have that, you know, thrown away in this I really
13:08
Speaker 5: question that.
13:09
Speaker 4: Let me so let me ask another question is related
13:12
Speaker 4: to this, and then we can move on to uh,
13:14
Speaker 4: Damon Jones, because I think those are Damon Jones and
13:17
Speaker 4: Terry Rose there that those may be a little bit
13:19
Speaker 4: more concrete, but as far as like because the question
13:24
Speaker 4: that I have, and I have a criminal law background,
13:27
Speaker 4: and the question that I have is that if these
13:29
Speaker 4: are stated to be underground or illegal gaming operations, so
13:35
Speaker 4: they're illegal in nature, So even to participate them as
13:38
Speaker 4: just as a player, whether I win or lose, I
13:41
Speaker 4: am doing something illegal. So what protection would I have
13:47
Speaker 4: if I'm participating in something illegal and then I get
13:51
Speaker 4: took from the people who are pitting on this illegal game.
13:55
Speaker 5: Well, I mean so from an agent standpoint, when I
13:58
Speaker 5: do a contract for a land one provision in the
14:02
Speaker 5: contract is that the whoever, the you know, the the
14:07
Speaker 5: company is that's using the athlete services they warrant and
14:11
Speaker 5: represent as part of the terms and condition of the
14:14
Speaker 5: contract that they are following state and federal law. That
14:18
Speaker 5: I have that in my agreements. Okay, so that no
14:22
Speaker 5: matter what whatever they're doing that I don't know about,
14:25
Speaker 5: at the end of the day, in writing in the contract,
14:29
Speaker 5: they are warranting that whatever they're doing is going to
14:34
Speaker 5: be done according to laws, so that my clients aren't
14:36
Speaker 5: getting caught up. And because you don't know, you don't know,
14:41
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, they're just using the athlete's fame, right,
14:44
Speaker 5: I mean, that's what they're using and you know, and
14:46
Speaker 5: that's what they're hiring, frankly, and that's all that the
14:50
Speaker 5: athlete knows, you know. And so I always, you know,
14:55
Speaker 5: include that in my agreements because I think it's important.
14:57
Speaker 1: But you know, all I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of
15:01
Speaker 1: lean to the I'm gonna lean to the other side
15:04
Speaker 1: for a second, you know. Okay, So Chauncey Bills, Okay,
15:08
Speaker 1: you're a head coach, okay, and and.
15:14
Speaker 2: You're out doing whatever, even if it's not.
15:20
Speaker 1: Straight gambling, that's illegal, it's it's it's something.
15:25
Speaker 2: How do you what? What is the expectation for you
15:30
Speaker 2: if he's coaching me? What?
15:32
Speaker 1: And I know this is because you know, like we
15:34
Speaker 1: know what coaches do. Coaches try to be sneaky, like
15:36
Speaker 1: players try to be sneaky, and you always kind of
15:40
Speaker 1: find out what they're doing. And if you know that,
15:43
Speaker 1: if players know that, like like how you see him
15:50
Speaker 1: in you see him gambling, you see him doing this,
15:52
Speaker 1: you see him doing that, and then this comes out,
15:55
Speaker 1: you have no other thought process that he's he's guilty.
16:00
Speaker 4: No, but I think you're I think to to to
16:05
Speaker 4: the point that hasn't been brought up, is that we
16:06
Speaker 4: don't really know the guys in which Billips was participating
16:12
Speaker 4: my question.
16:13
Speaker 2: But but what I'm saying is.
16:16
Speaker 1: If he's involved, if he's gambling, if he's betting, if
16:23
Speaker 1: he's doing this, and if.
16:25
Speaker 2: That's what he's part of, he's not the example he
16:33
Speaker 2: and again, and this is what this is.
16:35
Speaker 1: This is just saying if by any chance he was
16:37
Speaker 1: part of this, right he.
16:43
Speaker 2: And and and Brandon.
16:44
Speaker 1: You know, like anytime a player sees a coach out somewhere,
16:48
Speaker 1: like a coach should never be seen out where the
16:50
Speaker 1: players are.
16:51
Speaker 2: That's just that's just always been the kind of thing.
16:55
Speaker 2: How is that happening? Like? What? What? What makes you
16:57
Speaker 2: think that it's okay?
16:59
Speaker 5: I think? I think? And this is the real nexus
17:02
Speaker 5: and what I was trying to kind of talk about
17:04
Speaker 5: at the beginning here, And you put your finger right
17:08
Speaker 5: on the pulse of the issue, Carl. Your generation of
17:11
Speaker 5: athlete was very much conditioned that, Hey, if there's something
17:16
Speaker 5: gambling related here, I'm going the other way. I don't
17:20
Speaker 5: even want to be near it. I don't even want
17:22
Speaker 5: to touch it. I want nothing to do with it.
17:25
Speaker 5: But now the leagues have wrapped themselves in, you know, gambling,
17:32
Speaker 5: and so now it's like, well, hey, I mean these
17:34
Speaker 5: guys are paying my paycheck really, and so so now
17:38
Speaker 5: it's like, well, it's it's kind of like, you know,
17:41
Speaker 5: you know, do you do you do a you know,
17:46
Speaker 5: some kind of an NFL race where you know, Budweiser
17:51
Speaker 5: is a sponsor. Well, there would have been a time
17:53
Speaker 5: where maybe, hey, no, I'm not because that's alcohol. But
17:56
Speaker 5: the NFL has definitely, you know, said no, we're having
17:59
Speaker 5: alcohol sponsorships and and everything else. And so now the
18:04
Speaker 5: athlete's like, well, hey, I mean this is part of
18:06
Speaker 5: the deal now, and so they kind of just slide
18:10
Speaker 5: into it. I think, and and and to your point,
18:12
Speaker 5: I think that's the real thing here. And I think
18:17
Speaker 5: the leagues if there's going to be gambling, somewhere along
18:22
Speaker 5: the way, there's going to be organized crime. There's somewhere
18:26
Speaker 5: along the way there's gonna be fixing. And it's like
18:31
Speaker 5: they have chosen to do a deal with the devil,
18:34
Speaker 5: but the devil's going to come back and collect at
18:37
Speaker 5: some point. And it's a real fine line. And I
18:40
Speaker 5: don't know, and you know, like they they bet on
18:45
Speaker 5: things that aren't even like the game, Like, you know,
18:51
Speaker 5: how long is this guy gonna play or whatever. It's like,
18:53
Speaker 5: right now, I can tell you for sure bet. The
18:56
Speaker 5: first sure bet is that when Roger Craig the Hall
19:00
Speaker 5: the Great forty nine er running Back goes into the
19:02
Speaker 5: Hall of Fame, Eddie de Barbelow will be his presenter. Now,
19:08
Speaker 5: maybe that doesn't come true for a variety of reasons,
19:11
Speaker 5: but that's the kind of bet you could make right now,
19:13
Speaker 5: right And it's like they allow you to bet on everything.
19:16
Speaker 5: But when they allow you to bet on everything, it's like, boy,
19:20
Speaker 5: that really and it's like, you know, so you know,
19:24
Speaker 5: Roger kind of casually said to me, Yeah, well, Eddie's
19:27
Speaker 5: going to be my presenter if I ever, you know,
19:29
Speaker 5: go to the Hall of Fame. Well, okay, did Roger
19:33
Speaker 5: intend that to be information that's leaked out that people
19:36
Speaker 5: could use the path? No, he was just he was
19:39
Speaker 5: just telling me right like. So that's where it really
19:43
Speaker 5: gets into a slippery slope here, and that.
19:45
Speaker 2: Leads me to my next question.
19:47
Speaker 4: Because again we talked about Chohncey Billis, but Terry Rosere
19:51
Speaker 4: and Damon Jones, part of their indictment is that they
19:55
Speaker 4: gave inside their information. So to your point, when we
19:59
Speaker 4: talk about gambling, and we talk about this thing as
20:02
Speaker 4: far as from a cultural context, how do we escape it?
20:06
Speaker 4: Because again to your point, and I love how you
20:08
Speaker 4: framed it, they've made a deal with the devil and
20:11
Speaker 4: now the devil wants his cut. So if you're coming
20:14
Speaker 4: up in just an era in the culture where we
20:16
Speaker 4: not only have you know, grown men who are taking
20:19
Speaker 4: these bets, but a lot of teams, you know, next
20:22
Speaker 4: to drug and alcohol and cigarettes abuse, the other thing
20:24
Speaker 4: we have to worry about is them getting on that
20:27
Speaker 4: app and constantly betting. And it starts innocently enough with
20:31
Speaker 4: things like fantasy football. So so I don't know how
20:35
Speaker 4: you weed it out of here, because again we've seen
20:38
Speaker 4: what like a couple of years ago with Shay Show
20:40
Speaker 4: Old Tani, right, we've seen this. We've seen a couple
20:44
Speaker 4: of football players get long term suspensions due to you know,
20:47
Speaker 4: this sort of gambling. So what what is far as
20:51
Speaker 4: an agent standpoint, if you got a young athlete, what
20:53
Speaker 4: conversations are you having about not getting entwined in this?
20:58
Speaker 5: Well? And I think you know it's so I'll use
21:01
Speaker 5: an example. Brett Favre. Brett Favre, you know, had this
21:07
Speaker 5: you know thing in Mississippi and welfare and blah blah
21:10
Speaker 5: blah and all that stuff, and and Brett's agent, Bus Cook.
21:13
Speaker 5: I don't think Bus was really doing stuff for him.
21:16
Speaker 5: But I know Brett, and Carl knows Brett, and he's
21:19
Speaker 5: a great guy. He's an absolute stand up guy. And
21:22
Speaker 5: I really have always felt very badly about that issue
21:27
Speaker 5: because you know, at first, blush, why is a as
21:32
Speaker 5: an athlete, you know, engaged in welfare funds? But yet
21:38
Speaker 5: when you get past that, you start to say, well,
21:41
Speaker 5: why is the NFL involved in armed forces?
21:45
Speaker 2: Right?
21:45
Speaker 5: Like the NFL gets paid to honor our military at
21:50
Speaker 5: halftime things and whatever. Right, So an athlete can very
21:55
Speaker 5: much look at this and say, well, this is what
21:57
Speaker 5: the NFL is doing. So hey, I mean, you know,
22:00
Speaker 5: my name, my likeness. I can go do some speaking
22:03
Speaker 5: things and so on and so forth and talk about,
22:06
Speaker 5: you know, pulling yourself up from your bo bootstraps from
22:09
Speaker 5: you know, poverty and having a great life, and and
22:12
Speaker 5: you think you're just totally great, you see, And then
22:15
Speaker 5: you got some guy that you know wants to run
22:18
Speaker 5: for governor and now he's going to make an example
22:21
Speaker 5: out of that athlete because see, that's the headlines that
22:25
Speaker 5: he's going to get his fame on. And so I
22:27
Speaker 5: really the athletes I've dealt with, they have gotten drawn
22:33
Speaker 5: into things, and the reason that they use athletes. I
22:37
Speaker 5: really look at athletes most of the time in these
22:39
Speaker 5: things as victims because they use athletes because people feel
22:45
Speaker 5: like they know that athlete even though they don't. Right,
22:48
Speaker 5: It's like, hey, that's you know that, that's uh, that's
22:51
Speaker 5: my guy, you know, and I've been cheering for him
22:53
Speaker 5: for ten years, and yeah, if he's doing it, then
22:56
Speaker 5: I'll do it. And that's that's why frankly, athletes have sponsorships, right,
22:59
Speaker 5: is that that that feeling of trust and such. So
23:03
Speaker 5: it's a real it's just a really dicey road. And
23:08
Speaker 5: I mean that's where you know, agents you can do
23:13
Speaker 5: a lot. But look, man, you know, organized crime is
23:17
Speaker 5: really good at hiding their involvement. They're always like three
23:22
Speaker 5: or four walls away from stuff. They've got other people.
23:27
Speaker 5: So to expect an athlete or an agent to flush
23:30
Speaker 5: that out, I think it's nearly impossible. And I do
23:33
Speaker 5: think that this gambling thing is really it's just gonna
23:39
Speaker 5: be a problem for all these professional sports leagues. I
23:44
Speaker 5: really think the leagues need to basically say, look, you
23:49
Speaker 5: cannot participate it all at all in any form of gambling,
23:54
Speaker 5: in any form of anything, period, because I just think
23:59
Speaker 5: that it's it's a slippery slope and it's gonna bite
24:02
Speaker 5: you in some way. You didn't even think of it.
24:04
Speaker 4: Okay, hold that thought. We're gonna take a break because
24:06
Speaker 4: I want to. I got some more questions related today.
24:10
Speaker 4: We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen.
24:12
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25:39
Speaker 3: Now back to the conversation.
25:40
Speaker 4: All right, So before we took the break, basically a
25:44
Speaker 4: recommendation that you gave out was that these leagues essentially
25:48
Speaker 4: need to say go back to the old way, noble gambling,
25:52
Speaker 4: we're done with it. We're washing our hands. And I
25:54
Speaker 4: would say, I don't think there's any other way to
25:58
Speaker 4: sort of do these because the these issues are just
26:01
Speaker 4: going to start to compound themselves, because again, not only
26:05
Speaker 4: are we dealing with people who have a lot of
26:08
Speaker 4: excess money, but we're dealing with the ultimate competitors, right,
26:11
Speaker 4: We're dealing with athletes at the highest level. These guys,
26:15
Speaker 4: particularly those athletes with a lot with a lot of money,
26:18
Speaker 4: once they're playing career ends, they still have that competitive drive.
26:22
Speaker 4: So you've seen, you know, Charles Barkley talk about going
26:24
Speaker 4: to the casinos and losing millions, millions of dollars in
26:27
Speaker 4: black jacket, different things of that nature. We've seen the
26:29
Speaker 4: Floyd Mayweather's bet hundreds of thousand dollars on boxing matches.
26:33
Speaker 4: So you know, how does that look as far as leagues,
26:37
Speaker 4: if you know, if they followed your recommendations to say, hey,
26:40
Speaker 4: we're just done with it, do you think that's even
26:43
Speaker 4: feasible with the money that's coming in.
26:45
Speaker 1: And before you answer that, Brandon, let me ask, let
26:47
Speaker 1: me add to that. And I think Hollis is alluding
26:50
Speaker 1: to this too. But like all of the commercials that
26:52
Speaker 1: are happening during a football game, a basketball game, there,
26:57
Speaker 1: they're alcohol, their gam laying there.
27:00
Speaker 2: You know, it's all of the things that you're saying,
27:04
Speaker 2: don't do.
27:06
Speaker 1: But you're taking that money and you're advertising that, and
27:10
Speaker 1: that's becomes associated with the league, the players, and everybody
27:16
Speaker 1: who's associated with it.
27:17
Speaker 2: Am I not? Am I right on that?
27:20
Speaker 5: You're absolutely right? And I mean that's there's the The
27:24
Speaker 5: real problem is that they have taken the money. It
27:27
Speaker 5: is a lot of money. I thought I read the
27:31
Speaker 5: Cherry Jones that Draft Kings, fantasy football, you know, gambling thing.
27:37
Speaker 5: He's an investor in that.
27:39
Speaker 2: I mean, it's how it works. That would happen to me.
27:44
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. I haven't heard that.
27:47
Speaker 5: That's what I had read. And and all I'm saying
27:50
Speaker 5: is that what I think the league is trying to
27:55
Speaker 5: do is they're trying to say, look, we're the owners,
27:58
Speaker 5: we're going to do it, but players cannot, and and
28:06
Speaker 5: and then it gets to, well, okay, but can a
28:10
Speaker 5: player make an appearance at a casino? Right? You know,
28:15
Speaker 5: can he make an appearance at you know, a card
28:20
Speaker 5: game and and so on. Now you start to get
28:23
Speaker 5: into this gray area, right, and and that's where if
28:28
Speaker 5: the money is coming there. Well, obviously the casinos are
28:32
Speaker 5: paying a fee and they're they're they're going to pay
28:35
Speaker 5: they want that affiliation. But then what do you how
28:39
Speaker 5: do you sell that? You sell that with players, don't you?
28:41
Speaker 5: With appearances? You know? Yeah, And so it just gets
28:46
Speaker 5: into such a mess. And I think on one of
28:49
Speaker 5: these individuals, the NBA did their own independent review of it,
28:56
Speaker 5: uh and they found no wrongdoing of the particular individual.
29:02
Speaker 5: So it gets into a real dicey thing. And I
29:07
Speaker 5: will say this because I think it needs to be said.
29:12
Speaker 5: We have the former head of the FBI, James Comeny,
29:17
Speaker 5: is under indictment. We have a slew of people that
29:23
Speaker 5: have opposed the current administration that have had indictments brought
29:27
Speaker 5: against them recently. And the NBA has gone headfirst into
29:35
Speaker 5: DEI and has very much supported that. And that is
29:41
Speaker 5: something that is out there and I do think it
29:48
Speaker 5: has to be asked. Is the Justice Department doing this
29:52
Speaker 5: to give the NBA a black eye? And this player
29:55
Speaker 5: is a black guy, so it can advance its thoughts
30:00
Speaker 5: on DEI.
30:01
Speaker 4: That is a very very interesting point, and I don't
30:05
Speaker 4: think I don't think that would have been anything that
30:08
Speaker 4: I thought would come out of this conversation at It's
30:11
Speaker 4: a very interesting point, and we've heard and I think
30:14
Speaker 4: that's what Stephen A. Smith probably was alluding to. I
30:17
Speaker 4: don't think he said it as directly is what you
30:20
Speaker 4: just stated, but he definitely, I believe, alluded to it
30:23
Speaker 4: in his comments. And that can very well be true
30:26
Speaker 4: because to your point, you know, like I said, I
30:29
Speaker 4: just don't see how we are in a cultural culture
30:34
Speaker 4: of gambling and then we're prosecuting people for participating in
30:38
Speaker 4: the culture because it's going to happen, you know, this
30:41
Speaker 4: is where we're at.
30:43
Speaker 5: Well, like I said, I don't know all the fact,
30:46
Speaker 5: I don't know all the evidence. At my first gut
30:51
Speaker 5: instinct is these NBA players, boy, I really think they
30:58
Speaker 5: got strong case for a quittal. Uh just from what
31:02
Speaker 5: I'm reading. Okay, Now, I don't know, you know, but
31:06
Speaker 5: I'm just saying like it just it smells to me,
31:11
Speaker 5: and I.
31:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so let's assume let's assume that happens. Okay,
31:17
Speaker 1: And now there's a little mumbling going on with the
31:21
Speaker 1: NFL that there could be something over there, right, and
31:25
Speaker 1: let's assume something pops up over there, are we gonna
31:28
Speaker 1: be in the same situation to where in one case
31:32
Speaker 1: it looks really bad, but we don't really have any
31:36
Speaker 1: locked in facts.
31:38
Speaker 2: And now we gotta we gotta let him go. And
31:43
Speaker 2: after you've.
31:44
Speaker 1: Already said my name all over the country, now we're
31:49
Speaker 1: talking about it. Every sports place is talking about it,
31:52
Speaker 1: the news is talking about it. So you can't like,
31:55
Speaker 1: you can't put that back in the bottle.
31:58
Speaker 5: That's gonna go with me for the rest of and
32:01
Speaker 5: and let's let's let's let's let's let's put it very
32:05
Speaker 5: squarely think about professional boxing. Professional boxing was the sport
32:10
Speaker 5: in America until until we started to realize the impact
32:17
Speaker 5: of head injuries and the fact that the mafia was
32:23
Speaker 5: maybe rigging matches, okay, and so the credibility of the
32:29
Speaker 5: sport and the fact, uh that it was dangerous. Now
32:33
Speaker 5: we already got that with the NFL, the danger side.
32:35
Speaker 5: So now you start going to the credibility. And now
32:40
Speaker 5: right to your point, Carl, you know, if there's that
32:45
Speaker 5: send out there, well, now people start to question the
32:52
Speaker 5: you know, the sport, right, and they start to question
32:55
Speaker 5: the credibility. They do it from a you know, a
32:58
Speaker 5: credibility standpoint of of you know, a lot of different things.
33:01
Speaker 5: And I think one thing that's really hard for people
33:04
Speaker 5: to understand, which it was hard for me, is that
33:09
Speaker 5: these athletes are unbelievable and they can have an injury
33:18
Speaker 5: and go out there and you watch him when you're like,
33:21
Speaker 5: doesn't look like he's injured to me, but he is,
33:23
Speaker 5: you know what I'm saying, And like that's it's like
33:25
Speaker 5: Carl talking about, you know, in his career when you
33:28
Speaker 5: know he's got a separated shoulder and you know, they're
33:32
Speaker 5: you've got all these issues going on, and they're they're
33:34
Speaker 5: telling him, you know, we'll try to fall this way
33:37
Speaker 5: so that you know, you deal with your forearm and
33:41
Speaker 5: we don't get another separated shoulder kind of saying or whatever.
33:44
Speaker 5: It's like, you know it. These athletes are unbelievable and
33:48
Speaker 5: what they do. So for the untrained eye you're looking
33:51
Speaker 5: at you're going look the wall, they look fine to me,
33:53
Speaker 5: and you know the difference is you know, very minute
33:58
Speaker 5: and the untrained I can't see it. And so yeah,
34:01
Speaker 5: and I think.
34:03
Speaker 4: You know, as far as the credibility is concerned, I
34:05
Speaker 4: think that may be one of the strongest cases to
34:10
Speaker 4: you know, re examining gaming and gambling as it currently stands,
34:15
Speaker 4: because when we look at this, you know, we've had
34:18
Speaker 4: situations that Tim Donneghie's the referee of the NBA who
34:21
Speaker 4: got caught up in that betting scandal. And now we're
34:24
Speaker 4: having a plethora of players, you know, some quality not
34:28
Speaker 4: making the news as much, and then we have this
34:30
Speaker 4: explosive stories. So again we don't want to start, you know,
34:34
Speaker 4: just questioning outcomes. And I think eventually this is not
34:39
Speaker 4: only going to be you know, you know, you know,
34:42
Speaker 4: news and professional sports, but it's going to get down
34:45
Speaker 4: to that collegiate sports as well. When we talk about
34:48
Speaker 4: you know what, what are the lines that players are
34:50
Speaker 4: now going when it comes to gaming and gambling and
34:54
Speaker 4: different things and using their name and image and likeness
34:57
Speaker 4: to represent you know, see, you know, businesses and individuals
35:02
Speaker 4: who are just offering a bunch of money up front.
35:05
Speaker 1: And and and to that, Like when you start looking
35:09
Speaker 1: at at a game, whether it's I'll just use football
35:13
Speaker 1: and somebody a receiver who you you would expect to
35:17
Speaker 1: make this catch, he drops this and he could have
35:20
Speaker 1: and if he catches it, it's a touchdown, they win
35:22
Speaker 1: the game, he drops it and they lose the game.
35:30
Speaker 1: I'm in my head, I'm thinking there are people who
35:33
Speaker 1: are never going to be able to let that go
35:36
Speaker 1: and say, oh.
35:37
Speaker 2: That looks like like he set that up.
35:39
Speaker 1: He's because he should have made that catch, where any
35:42
Speaker 1: other time you could have just said, oh man, he
35:44
Speaker 1: should have made that. Now you're thinking, oh, he might
35:48
Speaker 1: have dropped that, or you know, he might be gambling
35:51
Speaker 1: or whatever.
35:52
Speaker 2: I see.
35:52
Speaker 4: And I think it's particularly you know, relevant because of
35:56
Speaker 4: what you mentioned before. Brandon was talking about all the
35:58
Speaker 4: prop bets. Now, so it's not just like a win
36:01
Speaker 4: or lose. Right, you could be ahead of the game.
36:03
Speaker 4: You could be winning and you just don't make that
36:05
Speaker 4: next catch, or you don't or you just you know,
36:08
Speaker 4: feel go to the left, but it really doesn't matter.
36:11
Speaker 4: So it's not just a perspective of like just winning
36:14
Speaker 4: and losing games. Now you dive deeper into that, and
36:17
Speaker 4: you can really if you do a deeper analyst of
36:20
Speaker 4: those things. And I think that's kind of the part
36:22
Speaker 4: that's difficult to sort of analyze because you have all
36:27
Speaker 4: you have these millions of prop bets, so you don't
36:30
Speaker 4: know even that little thing, right, that little why why
36:33
Speaker 4: I step out of bounds where I could have got
36:34
Speaker 4: the two yards and different things of that nature, or
36:37
Speaker 4: I'm fighting hard for those extra yards because you have
36:40
Speaker 4: those gambling bets. So it's not just a question of
36:43
Speaker 4: it's not like the big things. It could be a
36:46
Speaker 4: series of little things and two and one of the
36:48
Speaker 4: crazy things.
36:49
Speaker 1: And listening to you, what was going through my head
36:53
Speaker 1: is like how I'll go back to old school players
36:58
Speaker 1: that I guess I fit into that window.
37:00
Speaker 2: Like you, you would.
37:03
Speaker 1: Never think about not making a play so that it
37:08
Speaker 1: would it would you know, whatever the prop bet would be,
37:11
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna give that. I can't like
37:14
Speaker 1: I can't even because I don't want you to catch
37:16
Speaker 1: the ball on me. I don't want you to get
37:18
Speaker 1: a touchdown on me. I don't want to miss a
37:19
Speaker 1: tackle so you get extra yards. So do are we are?
37:25
Speaker 1: We are we saying are we thinking alluding to that
37:30
Speaker 1: there are there could be potential players who are in
37:36
Speaker 1: that situation today.
37:38
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, like I think it could be again
37:41
Speaker 4: and not accusing anybody, but it's it's really something that's
37:45
Speaker 4: relevant and I think as we start, because I don't
37:47
Speaker 4: think we're going to see more and more stories like this.
37:49
Speaker 4: I think this is just the start. Yeah, so this
37:51
Speaker 4: these things are just to start. So, like I said,
37:53
Speaker 4: we're in a culture of gaming. So if you're you know,
37:56
Speaker 4: a twenty one year old kid, you're playing professional sports.
37:59
Speaker 4: You grew up plan fantasy sports, you grew up, you know,
38:03
Speaker 4: being on gaming apps. You grew up basically gambling your
38:06
Speaker 4: whole life as far as nature, So your thought process
38:09
Speaker 4: may be a little different. So outside of this, Brandon
38:12
Speaker 4: like again, you are you are an agent, So what
38:15
Speaker 4: professional organizations are you an agent? And what capacity do
38:19
Speaker 4: you work in?
38:20
Speaker 5: So I'm a lawyer, and and I think I would
38:26
Speaker 5: say this that anybody that hires an agent, that that
38:30
Speaker 5: agent should be a lawyer because they have the sophistication
38:36
Speaker 5: to understand some of these things and include some of
38:39
Speaker 5: these things in their contracts and so on and so forth,
38:41
Speaker 5: whereas an agent per se doesn't need to be a lawyer.
38:47
Speaker 5: But you know, there is a difference, and so that's
38:52
Speaker 5: that's that's a big thing. One thing though that you
38:55
Speaker 5: guys were talking about that you know, the leagues have
39:01
Speaker 5: gone all in on the money right with the gambling,
39:04
Speaker 5: and it's a lot of money, and of course the
39:07
Speaker 5: players are making higher salaries because of that money. So
39:11
Speaker 5: as this relates one thing to think about, there's no
39:16
Speaker 5: way that the league's gonna they're going to play every card.
39:20
Speaker 5: No pun intended to keep this affiliation with gambling going
39:24
Speaker 5: because they're making the money at it, and the players
39:26
Speaker 5: are going to The players Association is going to support
39:29
Speaker 5: it because that's how they're getting their salaries. Nobody's going
39:31
Speaker 5: to want to go and take less money, right. And
39:35
Speaker 5: so when you're a player that's getting pinched in something
39:40
Speaker 5: like this, can you imagine the league and the league
39:45
Speaker 5: kind of saying, hey, man, just plead guilty to this.
39:47
Speaker 5: You know, we want this to go away. We don't
39:49
Speaker 5: want this on the radar, you know, just plead guilty
39:52
Speaker 5: and we'll take care of you later. Like I am
39:55
Speaker 5: empathetic to the player or manager or whatever in this
40:00
Speaker 5: because you know, these leagues there's so much money at stake.
40:06
Speaker 5: I'm sure they would be happy to serve up an
40:09
Speaker 5: individual and say, well, no, no, this isn't a league
40:13
Speaker 5: wide problem. It's just this one badass, right, yeah, you see,
40:17
Speaker 5: and the pressure, you know, and and and and everybody
40:22
Speaker 5: knows that, you know, if you're a player in a league,
40:25
Speaker 5: that there is pressure on those people to do things
40:32
Speaker 5: or not do things, as the case may be. Uh.
40:35
Speaker 5: And it's it's there and it's real, and I do
40:39
Speaker 5: worry about that as it relates to these individuals and
40:41
Speaker 5: this charge and and other charges in the future.
40:44
Speaker 4: Now, do you also have that same worry for the media,
40:47
Speaker 4: because in addition to providing sponsorships in partnerships with professional organizations,
40:54
Speaker 4: these gaming companies also are providing big sponsorship dollars for
40:59
Speaker 4: network in different programs. So do you worry abo that
41:02
Speaker 4: the media won't, you know, give a fair analysis of
41:08
Speaker 4: everything as far as relates to cases like this.
41:11
Speaker 5: I think it's an absolutely, it's a great point. And
41:14
Speaker 5: I mean it's like they're all tied together. And and
41:18
Speaker 5: I do think that you know, the if you're from Minnesota,
41:23
Speaker 5: you'll remember a guy named Dan Barrero or there's another
41:28
Speaker 5: guy named Patrick ROYCEI And they were very much kind
41:33
Speaker 5: of anti establishment writers for the Star Tribune, and they
41:37
Speaker 5: would criticize the team, they'd criticize players, they would you know,
41:41
Speaker 5: they were pretty free in their their articles and their opinions.
41:46
Speaker 5: You don't see that as much anymore. Most of the
41:49
Speaker 5: media is raw, raw league, raw raw team and and
41:55
Speaker 5: and there there is more of a control factor. You
41:57
Speaker 5: don't see that contrarian journalists like you used to see,
42:02
Speaker 5: you know, forty years ago. So yeah, I think that's
42:05
Speaker 5: a It's a legitimate concern, no question about it.
42:09
Speaker 2: Wow. So will we find something at the college level?
42:20
Speaker 1: Do you think this is something that's even at that
42:23
Speaker 1: level or is this an NFL specific thing at this point, NFL, NBA?
42:32
Speaker 2: Is this just in the professional ranks at this point?
42:35
Speaker 1: Will this fall down to to a collegiate level?
42:41
Speaker 5: Well, I think, first of all, this has always been there.
42:45
Speaker 5: I would agree there's there has always been gambling. There
42:48
Speaker 5: has always been players that are getting paid. It's just
42:54
Speaker 5: that it was under the table, and now they're making
42:57
Speaker 5: it over the table, and they're making it a more
43:00
Speaker 5: on a system of what was really going.
43:02
Speaker 1: Well, now are they are they are they putting it
43:04
Speaker 1: over the on top of the table or did this
43:07
Speaker 1: just did this just sneak up and was sitting on
43:12
Speaker 1: top of the table and everybody or somebody saw it
43:14
Speaker 1: and they're saying, oh, this is this is not right?
43:18
Speaker 1: Because I don't think that. I don't know if I'm
43:20
Speaker 1: thinking that like this was that everybody meant this to
43:25
Speaker 1: show up. I don't think this was this was something
43:27
Speaker 1: that you wanted to come out.
43:30
Speaker 5: Oh no, no, no. The gambling. I'm saying gambling has gone
43:35
Speaker 5: and it is and it's something that is there. I
43:39
Speaker 5: don't think that the college sports, though, have made the
43:44
Speaker 5: alliance with professional gambling like the major sports you know,
43:53
Speaker 5: leagues have, right, and so as long as I think,
43:56
Speaker 5: to me, the problem is is that that alliance now,
44:02
Speaker 5: you know, it's like again, it's real simple in your mentality,
44:07
Speaker 5: Carl from your era was like, hey man, you're just
44:10
Speaker 5: not near that period. You don't go near that, and
44:13
Speaker 5: that keeps it real simple. And I think that, you know,
44:17
Speaker 5: the leagues, it's more complicated. I think college is still
44:21
Speaker 5: on the on the track of hey, you don't go
44:24
Speaker 5: near that, you know. Now, the fact that the pros
44:28
Speaker 5: are doing that, does that? Does that cause issue as well? Yeah?
44:32
Speaker 5: It does, But I thus far I think they've you know,
44:36
Speaker 5: they haven't made an alliance that I know of well.
44:39
Speaker 1: And I was thinking too on the side of that
44:42
Speaker 1: in IL money, with all this in I OL money
44:47
Speaker 1: what do you you know, what do you do with that?
44:50
Speaker 2: You know?
44:51
Speaker 1: Will some of these guys think about betting, gambling with it.
44:57
Speaker 2: And that's because to.
44:59
Speaker 1: Me, I think if you an athlete and you're gambling,
45:02
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be very difficult not to
45:04
Speaker 1: slide over and bet somewhere in the in the sports.
45:10
Speaker 5: Well, I Carl, so you told me a story about
45:15
Speaker 5: how you had like a broken you know, uh, forearm,
45:20
Speaker 5: and they're taping this all up to get you to play.
45:23
Speaker 5: And then they're telling you, well, don't you know, roll
45:26
Speaker 5: on it a certain way and rebreak your forearm, because
45:29
Speaker 5: that's a two week you're out Versus if you you know,
45:32
Speaker 5: put your arm out, then you'll separate your shoulder and
45:34
Speaker 5: that's six weeks. And and Okay, a normal person doesn't
45:38
Speaker 5: do that, Carl, Okay, Like you know, at my point
45:42
Speaker 5: is athletes are unbelievable gamblers. They have They are high
45:47
Speaker 5: risk takers, that is who they are, Like, they are
45:50
Speaker 5: way off the chart on willingness to take risk and
45:55
Speaker 5: they like the gambling. Frankly, kind of that's kind of
45:59
Speaker 5: the psychological makeup of a pro athlete, frankly, And so yeah,
46:04
Speaker 5: I mean it's It's something that's always going to be
46:06
Speaker 5: extremely alluring to an as it's such a challenge. Yeah,
46:11
Speaker 5: it's a challenge, but it's also it feeds into their competitiveness.
46:15
Speaker 5: It feeds into hey, this is how I've made my
46:18
Speaker 5: money taking risks, absolutely all of it. It is a
46:24
Speaker 5: real real issue, and yeah, no doubt about it.
46:29
Speaker 1: Yeah I don't know what happened, but I got none
46:33
Speaker 1: of that because I would.
46:35
Speaker 2: I would.
46:35
Speaker 1: I was in Vegas in for I was in Vegas
46:38
Speaker 1: for a week and I might have spent twenty five
46:41
Speaker 1: dollars the whole week.
46:42
Speaker 4: But I just don't think you came up seeing it
46:44
Speaker 4: how these kids are seeing it now, I'm not I
46:46
Speaker 4: would agree with that. One of the things I do
46:48
Speaker 4: outside of the legislative is working you know, behavioral health,
46:53
Speaker 4: and one of the things that we're seeing is that
46:55
Speaker 4: you know, we want we run you know, one eight
46:58
Speaker 4: hundred gamblers at the company I work for, one of
47:00
Speaker 4: the helplines, and we're seeing it when young men again
47:05
Speaker 4: twelve thirteen ten, they are coming up in it not
47:08
Speaker 4: only in direct sports gaming, uh betting, but also like
47:12
Speaker 4: the little roebucks that everything is tied to a sort
47:15
Speaker 4: of quasi gambling sort of thing, even like the canster phone,
47:20
Speaker 4: a chance to win if you know, you give this
47:23
Speaker 4: and we're gonna you get a chance to win this.
47:25
Speaker 4: So it's just it's just how you know, we're conditioned.
47:29
Speaker 4: And I think that to your part, to your point,
47:31
Speaker 4: Brandon we We, I believe not only do you know sports,
47:35
Speaker 4: professional sports leagues, but I also think society we have
47:39
Speaker 4: to take a second look at this and see if
47:41
Speaker 4: this is the best methodology moving forward, because it creates
47:44
Speaker 4: a whole stem of problems, whether it's gambling with your
47:47
Speaker 4: your body, you know, gambling doing something you know, trying
47:50
Speaker 4: to hit it big somewhere, or you know sports gaming and.
47:55
Speaker 2: Both of you.
47:56
Speaker 5: Just take a lotteries guy, you know, States do these
47:59
Speaker 5: lotteries and they make money off that. But that's gambling too, truth.
48:02
Speaker 2: Right, I was gonna so I'm gonna ask you to, like,
48:08
Speaker 2: do you think anybody I won't. I won't.
48:11
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to say anybody, But
48:13
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of people. And I think Collis
48:15
Speaker 1: you were alluding to this just a second ago. You
48:19
Speaker 1: have this desire of a challenge, of a risk. Does
48:27
Speaker 1: that because of because of who you are as a
48:30
Speaker 1: as an athlete. Are we saying that that person is
48:36
Speaker 1: is a prime candidate for being getting in a situation
48:41
Speaker 1: to where they could lose a bunch of money, they
48:44
Speaker 1: could do it illegally, get caught, because they just it's
48:49
Speaker 1: just a challenge that they are, they're they're going after.
48:53
Speaker 4: I would say, and I'll and I'll let you go
48:54
Speaker 4: Brandon last, But I would say it's not necessarily just
48:57
Speaker 4: them specifically being an athlete. But I think when you
49:01
Speaker 4: talk about athlete, when you talk about someone with excess
49:04
Speaker 4: amount of funds, and when you talk about someone who
49:07
Speaker 4: is in the know, right, there's nowhere that we don't know, right,
49:11
Speaker 4: So they're in spaces in rooms that we may not
49:14
Speaker 4: be privy to. So and in those rooms, it's not
49:18
Speaker 4: like you just going to casino you can win a
49:20
Speaker 4: couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand bucks or hit a
49:22
Speaker 4: slot machine. You may be in rooms where you could
49:24
Speaker 4: you know, several hundred thousands of dollars or millions or
49:27
Speaker 4: what have you. So I just think when you talk
49:30
Speaker 4: about access, when you talk about you know, excess funds,
49:34
Speaker 4: resources and just having a competitive disposition, it creates like
49:39
Speaker 4: a cock uh, you know, a toxic cocktail that you
49:43
Speaker 4: know we're seeing a result of.
49:46
Speaker 5: I agree. The only thing I would add to that
49:49
Speaker 5: is think of, you know, why do people gamble. One
49:54
Speaker 5: of it is, you know, kind of their constitutional makeup
49:57
Speaker 5: and their brain. Usually those people have ADHD and they
50:01
Speaker 5: get hyper focused on something and then the dopamine is
50:05
Speaker 5: the win, right, And that's the kind of the Usually
50:09
Speaker 5: those people fit into that mold. But now add to
50:12
Speaker 5: it head trauma, head injuries. Now you have depression, and
50:17
Speaker 5: depression is a symptom or one of the manifestations of
50:21
Speaker 5: that is uncontrolled gambling, right, that is what happens when
50:26
Speaker 5: people get depressed. So our athletes people that are very
50:32
Speaker 5: much you know, subject that they absolutely are because those
50:36
Speaker 5: are issues that they dealt deal with. And again that
50:40
Speaker 5: that's kind of their personality makeup. So it's for sure
50:46
Speaker 5: a huge, huge issue.
50:50
Speaker 2: Well, holler, you got anything else? No, I appreciate you
50:55
Speaker 2: coming on.
50:56
Speaker 4: Provided some great insight and perspective, and yeah, this good
51:01
Speaker 4: show today, Brandon.
51:02
Speaker 1: I truly truly appreciate it, you know. And what's what's
51:05
Speaker 1: funny to me that having you on and having this
51:09
Speaker 1: kind of this type of conversation is It's kind of
51:13
Speaker 1: crazy because I wouldn't have I would have never thought
51:15
Speaker 1: we'd be sitting down having some of a conversation like
51:18
Speaker 1: this about sports. You know, we you know now after
51:22
Speaker 1: working with you for a long time, we usually are
51:25
Speaker 1: sitting around laughing and joking and having a good time.
51:27
Speaker 2: And you know, but I do truly, truly appreciate you
51:31
Speaker 2: coming on.
51:32
Speaker 5: Thanks guys. It has been an honor and a pleasure.
51:34
Speaker 1: All right, man, you take care, Hollis. I think we
51:37
Speaker 1: got like a lot of good information. And I know
51:42
Speaker 1: for you, you you being in that field, as well
51:47
Speaker 1: as as as Brandon, you all communicated in a in
51:51
Speaker 1: a way that I don't know if a whole lot
51:54
Speaker 1: of people could communicate, you know, you knowing the facts
51:57
Speaker 1: of the things that you know, his facts from where
51:59
Speaker 1: he knows. And I thought that was I thought that
52:02
Speaker 1: was interesting because I was learning listening to you all,
52:05
Speaker 1: you know, yeah.
52:06
Speaker 4: And I thought he made a great point. You know,
52:08
Speaker 4: when we see these sort of things, and you know,
52:11
Speaker 4: these headlines and you have these superstar well known athletes
52:14
Speaker 4: and so forth, who are sort of not only maybe
52:17
Speaker 4: the face whether knowingly or unknowingly of maybe these illegal
52:22
Speaker 4: gambling operations and sort of they get wrapped up in it,
52:26
Speaker 4: which is a whole host of other people who are
52:29
Speaker 4: you know, involved in probably you know, doing the bulk
52:32
Speaker 4: of setting it up and just far as you know him,
52:36
Speaker 4: you know, spelling out the cultural peace to this when
52:40
Speaker 4: you have you know, the other individuals NBA players or
52:44
Speaker 4: associates who are evolved in this as far as giving
52:46
Speaker 4: insider information. To me, that's the most dangerous side of this.
52:52
Speaker 4: And how do we quell this not only from a
52:55
Speaker 4: professional sports standpoint, but also from a society stamp point
53:00
Speaker 4: because we are just so entrenched in gaming. Everywhere you look,
53:07
Speaker 4: you know, I'm telling you, you look on your phone
53:09
Speaker 4: for five minutes, you'll see a gaming ad, you look
53:11
Speaker 4: on television, everywhere you look, it's gaming, gaming, game and gaming.
53:15
Speaker 4: They're just enticing you to be a part of this.
53:18
Speaker 4: So how do we you know, do we need to
53:21
Speaker 4: have you know, disclaimers or do we need to have
53:25
Speaker 4: where we can sort of you know, have limited ads,
53:28
Speaker 4: Like what do we do about this? Because it's only
53:31
Speaker 4: gonna get worse. And to his point, you can't make
53:34
Speaker 4: a deal with the devil and then expect them not
53:36
Speaker 4: to come out because it's gonna come out. So you know,
53:39
Speaker 4: when you have an owner that has allegedly or and
53:42
Speaker 4: I'll do my research on that, but may have you know,
53:46
Speaker 4: you know, tithes or interests or investments in gaming sights.
53:50
Speaker 4: How's that not a conflict of it? It has to be,
53:52
Speaker 4: you know, So I don't know.
53:54
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's crazy, and I'm sure it's
53:59
Speaker 1: only gonna get worse as we as as the days
54:01
Speaker 1: and weeks past. Yeah, because it's gonna, it's gonna, it's
54:05
Speaker 1: gonna show up, and it's gonna keep showing out. All right, Well,
54:08
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, we appreciate you being with us today
54:10
Speaker 1: and we will be back again next week.
54:14
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