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GLAM YOGA TEACHER ON TRIAL NOW, Shocking 911 Call Just Played · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
0:14
Speaker 2: It's on the trial of the so called glam yoga
0:18
Speaker 2: instructor is underway now. This is after she flees the
0:23
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of Texas, uses the fake passport, her sister's passport
0:27
Speaker 2: to hide out in Costa Rica at a hostel where
0:30
Speaker 2: she wants to teach surf yoga, I believe, gets a
0:35
Speaker 2: nose job, and then finally is brought home extradited back
0:40
Speaker 2: to the US, where she then escapes from the jail again.
0:46
Speaker 2: Hey guys, you better make sure she doesn't pull a
0:49
Speaker 2: Bundy and jump out a window at the courthouse and
0:52
Speaker 2: run for it again. This woman will go on the run.
0:56
Speaker 2: This will be her what third or fourth time escape authorities. Well,
1:02
Speaker 2: yesterday in the courtroom and as we speak now the
1:06
Speaker 2: case commencing, we heard opening statements and man, they were something.
1:13
Speaker 2: Wait till you hear what the defense had to say
1:16
Speaker 2: following the state's opening statement on going to play that
1:18
Speaker 2: for you. But we heard about the horrific discovery of
1:27
Speaker 2: Moe's body, twenty five year old young woman crushed crumple
1:32
Speaker 2: between a commode and the wall, and the allegation by
1:37
Speaker 2: the state that they intend to prove that an angry
1:41
Speaker 2: lover Katelyn Armstrong stood over her and shot her in
1:49
Speaker 2: the heart. Why because the yoga instructor's boyfriend shared a
1:57
Speaker 2: hamburger with twenty five year old move. You know what
2:02
Speaker 2: I want you to hear it from the horse's mouth.
2:04
Speaker 2: I mean to say, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank
2:06
Speaker 2: you for being with us here at Crime Stories and
2:09
Speaker 2: on Serious XM one eleven with no further ado. Let's
2:13
Speaker 2: go in the courtroom. Listen, you're caves.
2:18
Speaker 3: She had gone again, blue friend of mammas hand.
2:24
Speaker 4: She arrives home and sees Mo on the floor and
2:29
Speaker 4: seize her legs so testify. She thought had been on
2:32
Speaker 4: the stringers ride and laying on the floor stretch and
2:35
Speaker 4: relaxing and shells testified. And she gets closer and sees
2:39
Speaker 4: blood and freaks out and a nine peour again and
2:46
Speaker 4: second being in apartment, she calls nine one.
2:49
Speaker 2: One, and in that nine to one one call, the
2:54
Speaker 2: friend says her brain is leaking. Her brain is leaking.
3:04
Speaker 2: I'm surprised this young girl even had the wherewithal to
3:07
Speaker 2: speak after finding what she found. With an all star
3:11
Speaker 2: panel joining me outside the courthouse, Tony Plaatski, investigative reporter
3:16
Speaker 2: with the Austin American Statesman as well as kV UE.
3:21
Speaker 2: Those opening statements were bombshells, Tony Plaatski, How was the
3:26
Speaker 2: jury responding, Nancy?
3:28
Speaker 5: You could see they were visibly struck by the opening statements,
3:33
Speaker 5: and as you mentioned, testimony from a young woman named
3:36
Speaker 5: Caitlin Cash, she is the one who discovered her friend's
3:39
Speaker 5: body in her own home. But during opening statements, you
3:44
Speaker 5: could absolutely see that the jurors were sitting on the
3:47
Speaker 5: edge of their seat as prosecutors unfurled what they described
3:52
Speaker 5: themselves as a mountain of evidence, some of which has
3:56
Speaker 5: been in the public space, Nancy, but some of which
3:58
Speaker 5: we were all here for the first time. People were
4:02
Speaker 5: sitting on the ope.
4:03
Speaker 2: Oh tell me, tell me, why did you hear for
4:05
Speaker 2: the first time, Tony, So.
4:06
Speaker 5: Nancy, for the first time, investigators described in court and
4:11
Speaker 5: prosecutors described in court how Caitlin Armstrong, they say, knew
4:16
Speaker 5: exactly where Mariah Wilson was, that she had access to
4:21
Speaker 5: messages that were being transmitted between Colin Strickland and Mariah Wilson.
4:27
Speaker 5: And in those messages, Mariah Wilson Moe said, I am
4:31
Speaker 5: staying at this exact address.
4:34
Speaker 2: Aha, We've been wondering how she knew exactly where Mariah was.
4:39
Speaker 2: Mariah Mo. Take a listener, our cut one seventy five.
4:43
Speaker 2: This is the prosecutor Rick Jomes. Listen, we're gonna give
4:47
Speaker 2: you back round college.
4:53
Speaker 6: I see.
4:57
Speaker 3: Nat, I'm a freeze as a result of their business. Sure,
5:17
Speaker 3: I think I loved laptop.
5:20
Speaker 4: It was connected to Tom's phone, his highness from his
5:24
Speaker 4: phone on those.
5:28
Speaker 2: As what he didn't know, Tony Blatsky, that she could see,
5:35
Speaker 2: for instance, my iPad is connected to my iPhone, is
5:38
Speaker 2: connected to my laptop, is connected to the Mini van.
5:43
Speaker 2: If I order from Instacart on my iPad, it pops
5:47
Speaker 2: up on my iPhone. Gotta be careful at Christmas time
5:49
Speaker 2: because when I charge something on Amazon, it pops up
5:52
Speaker 2: for some reason, on my son's iPhone, so you can
5:55
Speaker 2: see what I'm buying leading up to Christmas. Is that
6:00
Speaker 2: he didn't realize the devices were interconnected, Tony Plaetsky, Well.
6:04
Speaker 5: There was no statement about what he did or did
6:07
Speaker 5: not know, but I think it sufficed to say that
6:10
Speaker 5: he did not recognize or realize that Kitlin Armstrong was
6:15
Speaker 5: surveilling his communication. And what we do know in this
6:19
Speaker 5: was stated by prosecutors yesterday, is that earlier in the year,
6:23
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, he was so concerned about Kaitlyn
6:27
Speaker 5: Armstrong knowing that he was having ongoing conversations with Moe Wilson,
6:31
Speaker 5: that he actually changed Wilson's name in his phone so
6:35
Speaker 5: that if they were texting back and forth and Armstrong
6:38
Speaker 5: saw Moe Wilson's name pop up, she would not realize
6:42
Speaker 5: that's who he was talking to.
6:44
Speaker 2: So he changed Mo Wilson's name in his devices and
6:48
Speaker 2: all of his devices to Christine Walls to secret his
6:53
Speaker 2: communications with Moe Wilson. He says, after he and Moe dated,
6:59
Speaker 2: the eight remained friends. Okay to doctor Bethany Marshall, high
7:03
Speaker 2: profile psycho Anne was joining us out of La Doctor Bethany,
7:08
Speaker 2: if you have to surveil the one you love, you
7:11
Speaker 2: need a knew relationship. It is not necessarily you. Maybe
7:15
Speaker 2: it's them, maybe they're cheating and you feel it but
7:18
Speaker 2: you don't know it, so you have to check up
7:20
Speaker 2: on them all the time, you know what, It's just
7:22
Speaker 2: that's too much trouble. If I had to figure out
7:24
Speaker 2: where David Lynch is every time, every hour of the
7:27
Speaker 2: day and night, I gave crazy.
7:28
Speaker 7: In terms of Armstrong, it could fall into two categories.
7:32
Speaker 7: In terms of motivation, one could be situational. Situational would
7:36
Speaker 7: be that she knows he's a cheater, he's a philander,
7:39
Speaker 7: there's evidence he flirts with other girls in front of her.
7:44
Speaker 7: Or it could be characterological, meaning she's very disturbed and
7:48
Speaker 7: she has pathological envy and jealousy. And even if you
7:52
Speaker 7: as pure as the driven snow, she would check up
7:55
Speaker 7: and check up. And these are the kind of people
7:58
Speaker 7: Nancy horce stalkers. This sounds like stalking to me. She
8:01
Speaker 7: was stalking him. Just called what it is, stalking him
8:04
Speaker 7: and she was stalking Moe and she put enormous energy
8:08
Speaker 7: into this.
8:08
Speaker 2: To Tony Plohetski joining us outside the courthouse, tell me
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Speaker 2: about the room that the friend where Moe was staying
8:18
Speaker 2: her coming home and finding Mariah did it.
8:22
Speaker 5: Was this really wrenching testimony, and there was complete silence
8:27
Speaker 5: in the courtroom as she described coming home initially seeing
8:34
Speaker 5: well she first of all, she had leftovers and her
8:37
Speaker 5: cell phone, and she describes kind of dropping them as
8:40
Speaker 5: she as she entered her home and Nancy, just to
8:43
Speaker 5: describe it a little further. We're talking about a back house,
8:46
Speaker 5: like a garage apartment behind another home.
8:48
Speaker 2: Okay, slow down, slow down, a garage apartment behind another house.
8:54
Speaker 2: Is that what you just said?
8:55
Speaker 5: That is correct?
8:56
Speaker 2: Okay? And before that you were saying she swapped something out?
9:00
Speaker 2: What did she swap out? This is the friend coming home,
9:04
Speaker 2: Caitlin cash yees.
9:05
Speaker 5: She So she has leftovers and her cell phone that
9:08
Speaker 5: she actually drops on the counter as she's walking into
9:14
Speaker 5: her home. Then she sees her friend lying on the
9:18
Speaker 5: bathroom floor, and she has a couple of thoughts.
9:22
Speaker 2: She can say that from the entryway exactly.
9:25
Speaker 5: We're talking about a very very small dwelling, and she
9:29
Speaker 5: has a couple of thoughts. Number one, maybe she's just
9:32
Speaker 5: had a hard workout and she's she's doing some stretching.
9:36
Speaker 5: Another thought is that it was so hot. She she
9:39
Speaker 5: wondered if if her friend Moe was was hot and
9:44
Speaker 5: was lying on the bathroom tile to try to cool off.
9:49
Speaker 5: But she's saying hello, I'm home, how's it going, and
9:53
Speaker 5: was getting no response. So she goes over urgently to
9:58
Speaker 5: the bathroom and and realizes that that Moe is is
10:03
Speaker 5: very much not okay. She doesn't describe in that moment
10:07
Speaker 5: that she sees that she's been shot, but upon closer
10:12
Speaker 5: inspection of her friend, she then sees that there is
10:16
Speaker 5: blood everywhere, and that is when she called ninety one.
10:19
Speaker 1: One Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
10:37
Speaker 2: Tonny, perhaps, can you say she sees that there is
10:40
Speaker 2: blood anywhere? Those were your words? Where where did the
10:45
Speaker 2: room the friend? She's also named Caitlin Caitlyn Cash, So
10:48
Speaker 2: I'm just going to call her the friend? Where did
10:51
Speaker 2: the friend see blood?
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Speaker 5: She just described this pool of blood, but she can't
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Speaker 5: apparently ascertain in that moment that her friend Moe has
11:04
Speaker 5: been shot. She just knows that there's blood everywhere. She
11:09
Speaker 5: actually at that point picks up her phone, it gets
11:12
Speaker 5: her phone and calls nine to one one, and she's
11:15
Speaker 5: saying to the nine to one one operator, I can't
11:19
Speaker 5: I don't know what's wrong with her, but but there's
11:21
Speaker 5: blood everywhere. There's blood everywhere.
11:23
Speaker 2: How can that be too? Justseph Scott Morgan's joining me.
11:27
Speaker 2: Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
11:31
Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon, star of a hitting the series Body
11:34
Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, Hagem Mariah be
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Speaker 2: lying there, and we know she was lying flat, not
11:41
Speaker 2: crunched up in a triangle, because when the friend comes home,
11:45
Speaker 2: she sees her legs split out on the ground, so
11:49
Speaker 2: we know she's lying flatish curved from behind that between
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Speaker 2: the commode and the wall. How could she not see
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Speaker 2: that she was shot?
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Speaker 8: Well, may have seen it, but her brain is not registering,
12:02
Speaker 8: you know, what she's taking in at this moment in
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Speaker 8: Tom Nancy I. You know, over the course of my
12:08
Speaker 8: career interviewing people that actually discover bodies like this, they
12:13
Speaker 8: only see things in flash as many times, and it
12:16
Speaker 8: takes a little bit of time for them to kind
12:19
Speaker 8: of let this data kind of seep down through their brain.
12:21
Speaker 8: So when they're giving that initial statement to the police,
12:25
Speaker 8: it may not be it doesn't necessarily marry up every
12:29
Speaker 8: single time with what CSI sees when they go out
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Speaker 8: to the crime scene and they have their time to
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Speaker 8: take this. Keep in mind, this young woman, this murder victim,
12:39
Speaker 8: is her friend, and all she wants to do is
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Speaker 8: render aid. She's not thinking, as far as you know,
12:47
Speaker 8: trying to understand what the dynamics are here. All she
12:50
Speaker 8: knows is that she sees blood and she sees injuries.
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Speaker 8: And I think that you'll probably get into that, but
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Speaker 8: the reality is this, she just wants to her aid
13:00
Speaker 8: to this young woman. She can't really give an assessment
13:02
Speaker 8: at that moment, Tom.
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Speaker 2: Did she actually say, Tony Plahsky her brain is leaking.
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Speaker 5: In her new call to nine one one. She did
13:12
Speaker 5: make that statement.
13:12
Speaker 9: She did.
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Speaker 10: And this is at a moment when she's also being
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Speaker 10: instructed excuse me to do chess compressions by the nine
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Speaker 10: to one one operator. And you can hear over and
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Speaker 10: over and over the friend is counting as she is
13:30
Speaker 10: doing these chess compressions. I think she gets up to
13:34
Speaker 10: eighty before EMS arrives. And she's becoming more and more
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Speaker 10: distraught as this is all sinking into her and she
13:44
Speaker 10: is realizing and recognizing the absolute terror that has transpired.
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Speaker 8: And Nancy, if I could just if I could just
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Speaker 8: add real quickly, as she's doing these chess compressions, this
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Speaker 8: is the first time she will have actually been able
14:01
Speaker 8: to kind of eyeball mo at this point in time.
14:04
Speaker 8: I mean, like up close and personal, think about chest compressions.
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Speaker 8: You might be about eighteen inches away from their face
14:10
Speaker 8: and you're looking down at them. You know, one of
14:13
Speaker 8: the rules with doing CPR is you get them flat
14:15
Speaker 8: on their back. You're doing chest compressions, and a lot
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Speaker 8: of things happen when this occurs. When you're pressing down
14:22
Speaker 8: on the chest. You're going to see blood that begins
14:26
Speaker 8: to emanate from the body if you have a defect
14:29
Speaker 8: or hole, a bullet hole. And also she would notice
14:32
Speaker 8: at this moment time this is what we call extrusion.
14:35
Speaker 8: You see this extruding brain matter that's coming out of
14:38
Speaker 8: these defects or bullet holes in her head, and it
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Speaker 8: would have been quite ghastly. I don't notice how she
14:43
Speaker 8: made sense of it.
14:44
Speaker 2: I'm curious why there was brain fluid and or blood
14:51
Speaker 2: coming from her head if she was only shot in
14:56
Speaker 2: the heart. Hold on, I'm going to come back to
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Speaker 2: you on that. Tony Plantski. You me outside the courthouse
15:01
Speaker 2: right now with kV Ue and the Austin American Statesman
15:04
Speaker 2: Alan Bennett joining me. Renowned lawyer, former prosecutor partner at
15:09
Speaker 2: Gunter Bennett and anthis Alan, thank you for being with
15:13
Speaker 2: us and all your time prosecuting. Very often witnesses don't
15:17
Speaker 2: know what they're seeing or hearing they hear gunshots since
15:23
Speaker 2: I go, oh, that was a fire, that was a
15:25
Speaker 2: car backfiring, because it's not within their realm of understanding.
15:29
Speaker 2: They're not used to hearing gunshots, they're not used to
15:32
Speaker 2: seeing Mariah on the floor dead, die with her brain
15:35
Speaker 2: quote leaking. So your mind leaps to what you know,
15:40
Speaker 2: what you're used to. That's not unusual.
15:42
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, and once again, thank you very much for
15:45
Speaker 9: having me on your program. I appreciate you opportunity to
15:47
Speaker 9: be here, and having been a former prosecutor yourself and
15:50
Speaker 9: your illustrious career, you are well aware more than I
15:54
Speaker 9: that eyewitness testimony in cases is the least revivable evidence
16:00
Speaker 9: that a jury often has. We tend to put so
16:03
Speaker 9: much weight on it. We tend to think of it
16:04
Speaker 9: as the gold standard of evidence in a criminal case,
16:08
Speaker 9: but studies have shown time and time again eyewitness testimony
16:11
Speaker 9: is actually the least reliable evidence that a jury often has.
16:16
Speaker 9: For people see a traffic accident, you'll have four different
16:19
Speaker 9: versions of how that accident occurred, and as you well know,
16:22
Speaker 9: that's just something prossers and defense arns always have to
16:25
Speaker 9: deal with. And absolutely I agree with you that when
16:27
Speaker 9: someone is in that unfamiliar territory, in that situation that
16:32
Speaker 9: is completely outside of their realm of experiences. I agree
16:36
Speaker 9: with the doctor. Your brain will try to fill in
16:39
Speaker 9: the gaps. Your brain will try to fill in the
16:41
Speaker 9: missing pieces of what the eyes are processing.
16:46
Speaker 7: Do you know, Nancy, one of the missing pieces would
16:48
Speaker 7: be who entered the house, who shot her friend? And
16:54
Speaker 7: is she safe? Is the roommate safe?
16:57
Speaker 2: Apparently she was not concerned at all about her her
17:00
Speaker 2: own safety at that time. Is you can hear on
17:02
Speaker 2: the nine on one call, all she's doing is trying
17:05
Speaker 2: to save Mariah. Take a listen to our cup one
17:08
Speaker 2: eight eight. This is the prosecutor she put.
17:12
Speaker 4: And the nine one one operator had doing chess compressions
17:17
Speaker 4: to her friends.
17:20
Speaker 3: Can tell you she didn't know.
17:21
Speaker 2: Ye that she was here.
17:23
Speaker 11: But listen or not, you're your test most thanks, closest friends.
17:37
Speaker 3: Chess about eighty times from eighty to ten minutes until
17:41
Speaker 3: the first.
17:42
Speaker 4: Was found of showing up and took on.
17:44
Speaker 2: Joining me right now. IRV. Brandt, Senior Inspector, US Marshal
17:48
Speaker 2: Service International, also Chief Inspector, Department of Justice, Office International Affairs,
17:54
Speaker 2: Author of Solo Shot, Curse of the bluestone and flying
17:58
Speaker 2: solo top of the world. Herv Brandt. I'm just trying
18:02
Speaker 2: to reconcile all the photos that we have seen of
18:08
Speaker 2: Caitlin Armstrong, the so called glam yoga teacher, so consumed
18:13
Speaker 2: by jealousy and bitterness over the fact that her boyfriend
18:19
Speaker 2: is still in communications with an ex. Not that they're
18:22
Speaker 2: necessarily cheating right now, I don't know that, but that
18:26
Speaker 2: they're talking, that they text back and forth, that they're
18:29
Speaker 2: meeting for a Hamburger, that they're going to go swimming together.
18:33
Speaker 2: So consumed. Instead of just going, you know what, I've
18:35
Speaker 2: had it. I don't want to live this way. I'm
18:37
Speaker 2: breaking up. She continues to stalk as doctor Bethany Marshall
18:41
Speaker 2: told us continues to spy, follows him, catches every communication,
18:47
Speaker 2: even though he now has Mariah Wilson listed under a
18:51
Speaker 2: completely different name. When you see her in court or
18:57
Speaker 2: when you see here all glammed up, it's hard to
19:00
Speaker 2: imagine this is the one they had to try it
19:01
Speaker 2: down to Costa Rica that then escaped from sheriffs and
19:05
Speaker 2: who was accused of standing over Mariah and shooting her
19:08
Speaker 2: in the heart.
19:09
Speaker 6: Sometimes jerrys can't believe what you see, Nancy, and I
19:15
Speaker 6: would defer to doctor Bethany. I'm sure she has clinical
19:19
Speaker 6: terms for it. We would just call it crazy.
19:23
Speaker 2: But I'm saying you have found people all over the
19:26
Speaker 2: world as us Marshall, and they come off as so friendly, affable, intelligent,
19:31
Speaker 2: in this case glamorous. But that's not It's like us.
19:35
Speaker 2: A lizard is under their skin. That's not who they are.
19:39
Speaker 6: No, I agree. When she went down to Costa Rica,
19:44
Speaker 6: she assumed a whole new persona. The people that were
19:49
Speaker 6: interviewed that, you know, talk to police that she was
19:55
Speaker 6: very normal.
19:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, really normal. She was like, that's not my birthday
20:00
Speaker 2: eight Yeah, I didn't have that botox and ran out
20:02
Speaker 2: on the bill. That's not my warrant. When she slipped
20:05
Speaker 2: through their fingers to Tony Ploheitski, tell me what happened
20:09
Speaker 2: in court when the nine to one one call was
20:12
Speaker 2: played where the friend Caitlin Cash was trying to revive
20:16
Speaker 2: Mariah on the floor.
20:17
Speaker 5: First of all, you could hear a pin drop in
20:19
Speaker 5: in the courtroom. I mean even among among journalists who
20:23
Speaker 5: were typing frantically on their keyboard. Much of that ceased
20:27
Speaker 5: as this was happening. You could look at the jurors
20:32
Speaker 5: and you could see the pain on their on their faces.
20:36
Speaker 5: Some of them were wiping away tears, and the friend
20:42
Speaker 5: on the stand was was was crying obviously as this
20:48
Speaker 5: tape was being played. I did think it was was
20:51
Speaker 5: absolutely of note that knowing this, that this tape, this
20:56
Speaker 5: audio was going to be was going to be played
20:59
Speaker 5: in core or Mo Wilson's family, most of them exited
21:04
Speaker 5: the court room prior to that, but you could see
21:06
Speaker 5: other friends of hers who similarly remained in court, and they,
21:12
Speaker 5: much like some of the jurors, were wiping away tears
21:15
Speaker 5: and you could hear audible crying in the courtroom.
21:18
Speaker 2: Man, that's a bad sign if the other side has
21:22
Speaker 2: the jury crying. Uh uh oh? What was question? What
21:28
Speaker 2: was the defendant, Caitlyn Armstrong doing during this?
21:33
Speaker 5: A little difficult to see from from my vantage point,
21:37
Speaker 5: but you know she had her back to the crowd,
21:42
Speaker 5: and unfortunately cameras were not trained on her face.
21:47
Speaker 2: And in that moment, can you tell me what the
21:50
Speaker 2: defense was doing while the nine one one was playing?
21:54
Speaker 2: Were they just sitting there taking notes? You remember how
21:56
Speaker 2: oj Simps would just sit there and take notes during
21:58
Speaker 2: the most gruesome testimony. It's like, I don't know what
22:01
Speaker 2: they're talking about. That's not me. Just take notes, doodled
22:05
Speaker 2: what what was he doing?
22:06
Speaker 5: They were sitting solemnly at at the defense table, but
22:10
Speaker 5: but not not showing any sort of of real, visible
22:15
Speaker 5: visible emotion.
22:16
Speaker 2: Guys, we are trying to determine how the whole evening
22:21
Speaker 2: went down. But I want you to hear what the
22:26
Speaker 2: defense has to say in their opening statement. Take a
22:30
Speaker 2: listen to hour two zero eight.
22:32
Speaker 3: You will also hear from experts, and I want you
22:36
Speaker 3: to listen when those experts.
22:39
Speaker 5: Tell you DNA reporting can mean very.
22:42
Speaker 8: Little, and ballistic science isn't a science at all, and it's.
22:48
Speaker 4: Not highly regarded by members of the general science.
22:53
Speaker 3: There's an evidence that it's not highly go about general science,
22:56
Speaker 3: beauty just because you can find one or some people
22:59
Speaker 3: to say that.
23:00
Speaker 5: Judge, these are opening remarks.
23:02
Speaker 4: This is slope, expect gets shows heart.
23:07
Speaker 6: Thanks for.
23:09
Speaker 2: Okay, that cut out on me at the end. But
23:12
Speaker 2: I did hear the defense. The defense is, you know,
23:17
Speaker 2: DNA can mean very little and ballistic science, well, that's
23:23
Speaker 2: not science at all. What is he talking about? There
23:27
Speaker 2: have been decades gone into ballistic matches. They're like a fingerprint.
23:35
Speaker 2: If they weren't, I would not bother bringing them into court.
23:38
Speaker 2: You don't want to bring something into court and have
23:39
Speaker 2: an attacked on cross exam and lose all the credibility,
23:43
Speaker 2: and then you lose credibility. Nobody believes a thing you're
23:45
Speaker 2: saying anymore because you've tried to pull something over on
23:48
Speaker 2: the jury. Just don't do it. Ballistics is like a fingerprint.
23:55
Speaker 2: Once a bullet goes down the barrel, it is forever
23:59
Speaker 2: indelibly marked with the interior of that barrel. It's a fingerprint,
24:05
Speaker 2: a ballistic fingerprint. There's no other like it in DNA.
24:09
Speaker 2: Who is this guy? But I guess practically speaking, Tony Blohetski,
24:15
Speaker 2: what else can he say?
24:16
Speaker 5: Well, as I said Nancy yesterday, going into opening statements yesterday,
24:20
Speaker 5: a big question is what is going to be the defense?
24:23
Speaker 5: We were all on the edge of our seats. Are
24:25
Speaker 5: they going to try to blame someone else? How are
24:29
Speaker 5: they going to cast this? And essentially the defense attorney,
24:33
Speaker 5: Jeoffrey Currier's former judge here in Austin, former prosecutor here
24:38
Speaker 5: in the Austin area, stood up and said that this
24:42
Speaker 5: is all just a pile of circumstantial evidence. He went
24:45
Speaker 5: as far as to say that his client, Caitlin Armstrong,
24:49
Speaker 5: has been trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence for
24:52
Speaker 5: a year and a half.
24:53
Speaker 2: Boo, who she's trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence. Okay,
25:01
Speaker 2: let me ask you this about the vehicle that was
25:03
Speaker 2: circling what turned out to be the murder scene. Tell
25:08
Speaker 2: me about the evidence that they discussed in opening statements
25:13
Speaker 2: about that being Caitlyn Armstrong's car that was circling the
25:19
Speaker 2: murder scene.
25:20
Speaker 5: Number one, That is how they got on to Kitlyn Armstrong,
25:26
Speaker 5: that they were able to identify the vehicle, particular characteristics
25:32
Speaker 5: on the vehicle, including a bike rack. That's number one.
25:35
Speaker 5: Then they traced that car to her house. Number two
25:40
Speaker 5: was the search warrant that they served on the house
25:44
Speaker 5: where they recovered that nine millimeter pistol that Matt Shellcasing
25:48
Speaker 5: found at the scene. Number three and this is new Nancy.
25:52
Speaker 5: Nobody knew this until yesterday. They recovered, according to prosecutors,
25:57
Speaker 5: DNA from a bicycle that No Wilson's bicycle that was
26:02
Speaker 5: found in some bushes. Guess who's DNA. According to prosecutors
26:06
Speaker 5: was on the handlebars and on the seat Caitlyn Armstrong.
26:10
Speaker 2: Kitlyn Armstrong's why it is her DNA on the murder
26:13
Speaker 2: murder victims bike? Take a listen our cut one eight nine.
26:17
Speaker 2: The prosecutor found DNA on the hem.
26:19
Speaker 4: Of bars high categories was the lowest falmerly phone and
26:24
Speaker 4: very strong like how they do the day you will
26:28
Speaker 4: find she'll testify that the DNA on the hell of bars,
26:34
Speaker 4: Tom and the DNA we who testified that goss of
26:39
Speaker 4: the DNA on the seat of the bike, that there's
26:43
Speaker 4: a very strong like a hood that the DNA on
26:46
Speaker 4: the seat of the bike included DNA from Katon Armstrong
26:50
Speaker 4: very strong, highest.
26:51
Speaker 2: Category Tunny Bladetski. What does the states theory as to
26:54
Speaker 2: how they defend at the yoga teachers DNA got on
26:58
Speaker 2: the murder victims bike? Why did that happen?
27:01
Speaker 5: There's no explanation that the defense offered as to why
27:06
Speaker 5: Kaitlin Armstrong's DNA would be on that bicycle and then Nancy.
27:11
Speaker 5: In addition to that newly released at least publicly DNA evidence,
27:18
Speaker 5: there is also this trove, according to prosecutors, of digital
27:22
Speaker 5: evidence that places Caitlin Armstrong at the crime scene that
27:28
Speaker 5: places her, you know, in Costa Rica, doing Google searches
27:33
Speaker 5: on herself after she fled to Rica. According to police,
27:39
Speaker 5: just prosecutors went through this mountain of digital evidence that
27:44
Speaker 5: they have gained over the past year and a half.
27:48
Speaker 2: I love digital evidence. Can we get back to the
27:51
Speaker 2: state's theory as to why the yoga teacher Caitlin Armstrong's
27:58
Speaker 2: DNA is on them murder victim Mariah Wilson's bike, on
28:05
Speaker 2: the handlebars and on the seat of the murder victim's bike.
28:10
Speaker 2: Why is it there? According to the state.
28:13
Speaker 5: The state contends that Caitlin Armstrong moved this bike after
28:18
Speaker 5: shooting and killing Moe Wilson. They did not describe why
28:23
Speaker 5: she may have done that, whether or not it was
28:26
Speaker 5: just a pure act of vengeance to throw her bike
28:29
Speaker 5: and some bushes, or whether or not she could have
28:32
Speaker 5: possibly tried to make them look like some sort of
28:35
Speaker 5: burglary gone gone wrong.
28:38
Speaker 2: Ah. Okay, yes, I see what you're saying now, setting
28:42
Speaker 2: it up to be a burglary gone wrong. Okay? Joining
28:46
Speaker 2: me Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, and
28:49
Speaker 2: author Jump in Joe Scott, how did her DNA get
28:54
Speaker 2: on that bike seat and the handlebars? Obviously the handlebars
28:58
Speaker 2: she must have gripped them and picked it up by
29:02
Speaker 2: the seat.
29:02
Speaker 8: Yeah she did. And guess what, Nancy, I don't believe
29:05
Speaker 8: that this is what we traditionally refer to as touch DNA,
29:09
Speaker 8: you know where we're sloughing dead skin cells. This is
29:12
Speaker 8: what I believe. I believe that this is probably a
29:16
Speaker 8: deposition of DNA. That means a depositive DNA on the
29:19
Speaker 8: seat and the handlebars that came off of the alleged
29:23
Speaker 8: perpetrator's hands as a result of sweat.
29:26
Speaker 2: You know, you are incredible because guess what I just
29:28
Speaker 2: wrote down?
29:29
Speaker 8: What's up?
29:29
Speaker 2: Avery? Avery? Stephen Avery, the star making a murderer who killed?
29:38
Speaker 2: Yes he did. He murdered a photographer, a young girl
29:42
Speaker 2: in her twenties, Teresa Halbach, and his sweat DNA was
29:47
Speaker 2: found in her car. Tell me about it, Joe Scott,
29:50
Speaker 2: how does that work?
29:51
Speaker 8: Well, here's the thing. Sweat is not. Let's see, it's
29:57
Speaker 8: it's not as DNA rich as say, for instance, you
29:59
Speaker 8: know what we would want would be blood, obviously, right,
30:02
Speaker 8: But you're going to get You're going to get cellular
30:07
Speaker 8: DNA out of sweat that is going to be much
30:11
Speaker 8: more rich. Okay, so that means that you're not going
30:14
Speaker 8: to have to go back and for so we don't
30:17
Speaker 8: get off in the waves. Technically you're not going to
30:19
Speaker 8: have to do as many replications say, for instance, if
30:23
Speaker 8: you're just talking about touch DNA, that's from you only
30:27
Speaker 8: have a partial strand with dead skin cells. That's not
30:30
Speaker 8: what you're looking at. That's why this is such such
30:34
Speaker 8: a momentous discovery by the police. I find it curious
30:38
Speaker 8: that they were able to because my understanding is when
30:41
Speaker 8: they and you know, maybe you guys can correct me
30:44
Speaker 8: on this, this bike was actually found over in the bushes.
30:48
Speaker 8: It's not like it was just kind of standing alone.
30:51
Speaker 8: The fact that they were able to process this this
30:55
Speaker 8: bicycle so well under harsh conditions, and we're talking about
31:00
Speaker 8: Austin in the summertime, Nancy, and you know what it's
31:04
Speaker 8: like down there. They were able to recover that DNA
31:07
Speaker 8: off of these surfaces. That gives you an indication is
31:10
Speaker 8: how much the how rich this deposition is, and they
31:13
Speaker 8: were able to tie it back to her. I would
31:15
Speaker 8: imagine at some point in time when they were able
31:19
Speaker 8: to hook her up on charges and when they finally
31:22
Speaker 8: had her, you know, corralled somewhere, they did a buckle
31:25
Speaker 8: mucosal swab on her. They took a you know, they
31:27
Speaker 8: took a scraping of her inner cheek cells, and they
31:31
Speaker 8: were able to compare it because look, they're looking for
31:34
Speaker 8: any kind of DNA that is not commonly associated with
31:39
Speaker 8: that crime scene. So that gives me an indication that
31:42
Speaker 8: they've done a very thorough.
31:43
Speaker 1: Job crime stories with Nancy Grace.
32:03
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the stalking aspect of this,
32:06
Speaker 2: and I think that's best done not by me, but
32:09
Speaker 2: by the prosecutor. In our one eight six, you are
32:13
Speaker 2: hearing the opening statement.
32:15
Speaker 4: Listen, you would learn that at eight thirty seven pm,
32:18
Speaker 4: one minute out she opened that door. Kay longstom jeeps
32:23
Speaker 4: say you're going through that app.
32:25
Speaker 3: One minute?
32:27
Speaker 2: I sure, can they do it? One minute later?
32:29
Speaker 5: Set on app.
32:31
Speaker 4: You can see that on video sipads.
32:33
Speaker 5: Kind of names, I mean thirty six, eight.
32:39
Speaker 4: Thirty seven, eight thirty eight, probably a few blocks away.
32:42
Speaker 4: Take you fear all that from witness now. Mom sends
32:49
Speaker 4: her last message out at nine thirteen pm.
32:53
Speaker 3: She said a text message to.
32:54
Speaker 2: A podcast I guess that's part of that mountain of
32:56
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that has had Caitlin Armstrong try and a
33:00
Speaker 2: nightmare of circumstantial evidence for a year and a half
33:03
Speaker 2: because Alan Bennett. This place is her in her vehicle,
33:10
Speaker 2: Katelin Armstrong's jeep, the victim, Mariah comes in, she goes in,
33:16
Speaker 2: and we know the timing because the house where she's
33:20
Speaker 2: staying at her friend's house doesn't have a traditional key
33:24
Speaker 2: and has I guess a code, It has a different
33:26
Speaker 2: way to get in that's electronically chronicled, so we know
33:31
Speaker 2: what time she goes in. One minute after Caitlin goes in.
33:36
Speaker 2: After Mariah goes in, Katelin Armstrong pulls up and idols outside.
33:43
Speaker 2: She Kitlin Armstrong was following Mo and I believe Moe
33:51
Speaker 2: came home and the boyfriend dropped her off of his
33:55
Speaker 2: motorcycle right there and in one minus in it, Caitlin,
34:01
Speaker 2: I was trong, creeps up, Wow, what a coink? You
34:05
Speaker 2: think she happens to be right there within two minutes
34:10
Speaker 2: of Mariah being done down dead?
34:12
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, And there's been a lot of talk of
34:15
Speaker 9: the whole circumstantial lovenance. She's buried under a mountain of
34:18
Speaker 9: circumstantial evenance. It's just circumstantial evenance. Everything is circumstantial evenance.
34:25
Speaker 9: Its circumstantial loveness just means there's no direct evidence, and
34:28
Speaker 9: direct evidences would be an eyewitness seeing her pull the trigger.
34:32
Speaker 9: So yeah, it's all circumstantial evenings. But kind of getting
34:36
Speaker 9: back to an observation you made just a moment ago
34:39
Speaker 9: us here talking about old ballistic evenance. It's it's not
34:42
Speaker 9: really a science and DNA. You'll hear from experts that DNA,
34:45
Speaker 9: you know, it really means very very little. Well technically,
34:49
Speaker 9: you know, technically prosperious. Correct, He's just playing a very
34:52
Speaker 9: very bad hand as well as he is able. He
34:56
Speaker 9: could find some people that says, oh, blistic technology, ballistic evenance,
34:59
Speaker 9: fire identification testimony, it's really more of an art than science.
35:03
Speaker 9: That doesn't mean it's not any good. Same thing DNA
35:06
Speaker 9: can mean very little, Yeah, when you don't have any DNA.
35:09
Speaker 9: So technically what he's saying is true. But if those
35:12
Speaker 9: prosecutors were savvy, would they would try to use everything
35:16
Speaker 9: you said in response to hearing that hearing that opening savement,
35:20
Speaker 9: You're right on the money's gone ballistic evan has been
35:23
Speaker 9: around for decades, It's been around for centuries. DNA is
35:27
Speaker 9: some of the most accurate level evidence we often have.
35:30
Speaker 9: So you're absolutely right when they talk about all it's
35:33
Speaker 9: just kind of circumstance with evidence. It is a virtual
35:37
Speaker 9: certainty just based on some of the observations you just
35:40
Speaker 9: made as to the timeline of these events.
35:43
Speaker 2: You know, Alan Bennett joining me, high profile lawyer out
35:46
Speaker 2: of this jurisdiction. This is his jurisdiction Austin, Texas. One way,
35:50
Speaker 2: for instance, that the defense could be right about DNA
35:53
Speaker 2: meaning very little is if the DNA is rightfully in
35:56
Speaker 2: that location. For instance, if you go look in my kitchen,
36:00
Speaker 2: you're gonna find my DNA. If you look in my car,
36:02
Speaker 2: you're gonna find my DNA. So what it means nothing.
36:07
Speaker 2: So one way they could attack this, not to give
36:10
Speaker 2: them any ideas, is that their client, Kaylin Armstrong's DNA
36:15
Speaker 2: was rightfully and innocently on Mariah Mariah Wilson's bike. That's
36:21
Speaker 2: one way they could get around it. Then they could
36:24
Speaker 2: bring in an expert to try and discredit the ballistics
36:27
Speaker 2: the ballistics information, but all together, all together, it's painting
36:34
Speaker 2: a horrible picture. What about it? Dr Bethany Marshall. Now,
36:37
Speaker 2: they're not gonna have anybody on the stand to do
36:39
Speaker 2: what you do because that would be inadmissible. But that said,
36:47
Speaker 2: we're not in a court of law. Explain to me
36:49
Speaker 2: this behavior. I mean, if I got to go out
36:52
Speaker 2: and follow a man around in the middle of the
36:53
Speaker 2: night and follow him and watch him having a hamburger
36:57
Speaker 2: with somebody, you know what, don't need. I got enough
37:01
Speaker 2: problems enough to do. I don't want to add that
37:04
Speaker 2: in my schedule. Stalk David, No, what does this mean?
37:08
Speaker 7: Well, when the prosecutor said a mountain, Oh, it was
37:12
Speaker 7: the defense who said that she's buried under a mountain of.
37:15
Speaker 2: Evidence, trapped trapped. She's trapped, trapped.
37:18
Speaker 7: I thought, of course, she's trapped under a mountain of
37:21
Speaker 7: evidence because she's obsessed with mo. Her psychological, behavioral, and
37:26
Speaker 7: physical fingerprints are everywhere. I'm surprised Armstrong was even able
37:31
Speaker 7: to hold down a job or do anything else. When
37:34
Speaker 7: when people stalk, they are preoccupied. They stalk digitally, they
37:39
Speaker 7: stalk physically, they stalk psychologically. They start questioning other people
37:45
Speaker 7: about the victim. I mean, I think it'd be interesting
37:47
Speaker 7: to ask all of Armstrong's friends, if she was preoccupied
37:51
Speaker 7: with mo and what was she saying and what was
37:53
Speaker 7: she talking about. But another way to think about this
37:55
Speaker 7: Nancy is something called obsessional paranoia. It's the parent obsessional
38:01
Speaker 7: belief that somebody's presence on this earth is negatively affecting
38:06
Speaker 7: you and because of that, you have to eradicate them.
38:10
Speaker 7: And that's one of the main reasons behind domestic homicide.
38:13
Speaker 7: There's this idea that I'm too miserable. If you live,
38:17
Speaker 7: I can't stand it. If you live, I am trapped
38:20
Speaker 7: inside your presence in a painful kind of way. So
38:24
Speaker 7: not only you know, she's not just trapped in the evidence,
38:26
Speaker 7: she's trapped in her painful thoughts and ruminating about Muddle
38:31
Speaker 7: you know.
38:31
Speaker 2: To you or Brandt. The prosecution and this is happening
38:35
Speaker 2: right now, is bringing on evidence of nefarious behavior that
38:41
Speaker 2: indicates guilt. What we know is that cops find the nine,
38:49
Speaker 2: the six hour nine melimeter. The very moment that goes down,
38:55
Speaker 2: Caylin Armstrong is caught on video selling her car. Take
38:59
Speaker 2: a list into our one ninety four.
39:01
Speaker 4: You'll see Taylor Mstone on a video camera at Carmacks
39:07
Speaker 4: in South Austin. Near their home. She goes to Carmacks
39:12
Speaker 4: and she sells her get but twelve thousand thouars.
39:16
Speaker 6: You see a.
39:17
Speaker 4: Video for in Carmacks. On that same day, you'll see
39:22
Speaker 4: an Uber receipt.
39:24
Speaker 3: She rides in Uber Austin Birch and a report hows
39:30
Speaker 3: she sold her.
39:30
Speaker 2: Car, so she sells. She sells her car and immediately
39:34
Speaker 2: takes an Uber and heads to the airport. So irv Brandt,
39:39
Speaker 2: is there any more of a text book getaway?
39:43
Speaker 6: No, Nancy, there's not. And you can call it a
39:46
Speaker 6: consciousness of guilt, showing you know the reasons why. The
39:51
Speaker 6: defense will say that Armstrong travels a lot and is
39:56
Speaker 6: known to travel at the last moment, but who shows
40:01
Speaker 6: their vehicle for cash, gets on a plane, then uses
40:07
Speaker 6: another person's passport to go to another country to go
40:11
Speaker 6: under an assume name, and then have cosmetic surgery. It
40:15
Speaker 6: all shows that she pleas and it's, you know, a
40:21
Speaker 6: consciousness of guilt.
40:22
Speaker 2: And of course Alan Bennett high profile. While you're joining
40:25
Speaker 2: us out of this jurisdiction in Austin, Texas, the jury
40:29
Speaker 2: is going to hear about her escaping custody and going
40:33
Speaker 2: on the run. You know, ten days ago they're going
40:35
Speaker 2: to hear about that too.
40:36
Speaker 9: Yes, Nancy, I think that is clearly ad missed. Wonder
40:39
Speaker 9: our law to show evidence of guilt, where a consciousness
40:43
Speaker 9: of guilt on this Armstrong's part.
40:45
Speaker 2: The jury, we'll have a mountain of evidence. Let's see
40:48
Speaker 2: what the defense does with it. But I can tell
40:49
Speaker 2: you this much, a lot of tears in the courtroom today.
40:54
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds.
40:56
Speaker 2: Goodbye, friend one.