Latest / Scalability School / New Year New Ad Platform: A Look At AppLovin

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New Year New Ad Platform: A Look At AppLovin · Scalability School

• 0:00
  I'm sitting on my phone playing a game that I'm very engaged in.
• 0:03
  You're likely not going to get up and let
• 0:05
  it play and go to the bathroom or get a snack
• 0:07
  because like you would for a TV commercial,
• 0:08
  there's not enough time and you want to get
• 0:10
  back to your game.
• 0:11
  So again, are also entering into this
• 0:12
  agreement of I will watch an ad for, you know, a reward
• 0:16
  in my game versus I feel like anytime we
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  serve an ad to a customer and any other platform
• 0:21
  that exists now, they don't want to see
• 0:23
  five second, 10 second videos that work in meta
• 0:25
  are not going to work in Apple, at least not at scale.
• 0:27
  You really can make an advertisement versus entertainment.
• 0:31
  I think that is the biggest mindset shift
• 0:33
  you have to take when going from meta to Apple
• 0:35
  in of saying Q4 last year, I did pull a
• 0:38
  report of like, OK, the whole time we were on Apple
• 0:40
  in and meta for all of Q4 last year.
• 0:42
  What was the overlap?
• 0:43
  Because I think that's another pushback for
• 0:44
  people are like, oh, well, it's just going
• 0:45
  to retarget my meta customers on there.
• 0:47
  Out of 41,000 orders, there was only a 5% overlap.
• 0:51
  That's insane.
• 0:52
  It was the day before Black Friday.
• 0:54
  They'd spent 40 grand and it held, you know, by doubling and doubling day over day.
• 0:58
  And it was like, just put it to 80.
• 0:59
  Like, let's see what happens.
• 1:00
  Will it break?
• 1:01
  And it didn't.
• 1:02
  It still hit the same row as number when I hit the button from 40 to 80.
• 1:05
  And now let's take a listen to the Scalability School podcast.
• 1:17
  OK.
• 1:17
  All right.
• 1:18
  Welcome, everyone, to episode 19 of the Scalability School podcast.
• 1:22
  The app-loving scaling playbook is what we have
• 1:25
  today with Miranda Pettinger from 365 Holdings.
• 1:29
  Legend in the media buying space.
• 1:31
  Legend on X.
• 1:32
  Legendary person.
• 1:33
  I recently announced on X that Miranda is actually my favorite follow.
• 1:37
  No offense to Brad or anyone else, because
• 1:39
  all she does is just bring straight heat and
• 1:41
  actually is in the trenches and you can tell.
• 1:43
  So, Miranda, thank you for the value you provide for us and welcome to the show.
• 1:48
  As you can see, we're pretty high production here.
• 1:49
  Pretty high production situation.
• 1:51
  Yeah.
• 1:51
  I like the garage.
• 1:53
  Yes.
• 1:53
  Well, the garage is where we've been doing a lot of different stuff.
• 1:56
  And, you know, honestly, my the chair, for
• 1:59
  those of you not watching this, my chair has
• 2:01
  been taken.
• 2:02
  And so now I have a paint bucket to sit on.
• 2:04
  So that's where we're at today.
• 2:06
  That's the kind of this.
• 2:07
  There's a metaphor somewhere in there for life.
• 2:09
  Yeah, exactly.
• 2:10
  Exactly.
• 2:11
  You know, exactly.
• 2:12
  Yeah.
• 2:12
  I've always I always laugh at like, I don't
• 2:13
  know what your setup or Miranda, what your
• 2:15
  setup is, but I think a lot of people have
• 2:17
  like, you know, massive monitors and all this.
• 2:20
  And like, I've always I had a big desk
• 2:23
  setup and like I actually had my dad make a like
• 2:25
  a thing for me where like he's a woodworking
• 2:28
  kind of enthusiast and had this big setup with
• 2:31
  my monitors.
• 2:32
  This was before we had Nora.
• 2:34
  And now I love having the laptop and that's it.
• 2:37
  And kind of the like you've you haven't made it right.
• 2:40
  You're nobody.
• 2:40
  Like back to my start, the kind of startup vibes.
• 2:44
  Like I love that feeling because it's I don't know.
• 2:46
  I feel like if I make it too permanent thing, it becomes more legit.
• 2:49
  And you're just a Chad Scaler.
• 2:51
  You're just the just kind of it doesn't feel right.
• 2:53
  You know what I mean?
• 2:54
  Like, I think so.
• 2:55
  Anyway, I don't know what your setup is, Miranda.
• 2:57
  I bet you.
• 2:57
  I like to move a lot.
• 2:59
  So like I have my desk and then I have a
• 3:00
  monitor and then I have a big chair in my office.
• 3:02
  So I kind of move and sit there.
• 3:04
  Oh, nice.
• 3:05
  I just got a house with my husband recently.
• 3:07
  But last year I was in an apartment with a roommate and my dog.
• 3:10
  And I would just work at like the kitchen table or I'd like work on my bed.
• 3:14
  So I've moved up in the world in the past couple of months as far as my work setup.
• 3:19
  And Miranda, do you suffer from what all media buyers suffer from, which is that
• 3:22
  your friends and family still don't really know what you do?
• 3:25
  Yes.
• 3:26
  Last Black Friday, I was up at like three in the morning running ads.
• 3:30
  And I was at my husband's family's house and they were
• 3:33
  having like their second Thanksgiving for his dad's side.
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  And I was just in his like childhood bedroom
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  working on ads and taking calls with my boss all day long.
• 3:42
  And they were like, Miranda, are you going to come down and eat?
• 3:44
  And I was like, I will come get a plate for like 10 minutes.
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  But then I have to go stare at my computer again.
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  I'm sure we'll repeat that again this year.
• 3:51
  Yeah, that's just how it goes.
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  Like they could not even fathom the amount of money that you're probably spending.
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  And that's exactly my family is the same.
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  They're like, I don't I don't get it.
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  You show me the annoying you make the
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  annoying things that pop up in my feed happen.
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  I was like, all right, fine.
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  Yeah, I told my husband that I spent more
• 4:08
  than our house costs like in a day the other day.
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  And he was like, oh, OK, that's nice.
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  I was like, yeah, that's kind of how reality is right now.
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  I had a friend that I was launching some ads with.
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  And now we were doing something for kind of this brand we were working on together.
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  And he's like, all right, do you think what
• 4:21
  do you think we should start at per month?
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  You know, like five grand a month.
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  And I was like, five grand a month.
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  Come on.
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  I don't have time for that.
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  I don't have the money for that.
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  Yes, it becomes.
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  And then that's the one thing I've actually
• 4:31
  always respected about our other co-host who's
• 4:34
  currently on paternity leave.
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  Zach is the guts that he has to spend his own money, like to a legitimate level.
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  It's like I'm so I can do it with other people's money.
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  It's like, yes, I have the same fiduciary duty.
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  I feel that.
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  But it's like because it's not mine, it's
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  like, OK, well, yeah, we're going to we're
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  going to get there.
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  It's going to work.
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  But I don't know.
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  There's something about it.
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  Right.
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  It's like it's really scary.
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  Yeah, I've told my bosses, I was like, it's
• 4:56
  a really good thing that I'm not spending my
• 4:58
  own money because I would be terrible at this if it was my own money.
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  There's yeah, there's just a different psychology to it.
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  It all turns into a video game.
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  You're just trying to make the numbers go up.
• 5:07
  Precisely.
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  Absolutely.
• 5:09
  Well, Miranda, today we're talking about app
• 5:12
  loving and, you know, the kind of thing that
• 5:13
  we're getting that you've been doing on Apple
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  and you're spending quite a bit of money there.
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  I think it's important to go through.
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  For those of you that don't know, Miranda,
• 5:20
  Miranda on X is at Miranda Pettinger, P-E-T-T-I-N-G-E-R.
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  I want to make sure everybody gets that.
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  And it is a really good follow.
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  I think what how did you get into this, by the way?
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  And what do you do?
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  Like what is 365 Holdings and what are the
• 5:34
  verticals, the brands that are within that?
• 5:35
  Yeah.
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  So I actually started out in photography
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  and videography in college and in high school.
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  I started my own photography business when
• 5:43
  I was 14 and set up my own e-commerce site.
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  So that was kind of how I got started in
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  e-com and also like the creative side of marketing
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  and kind of just self-taught myself
• 5:51
  everything there was about running a small business and
• 5:54
  kind of put myself through college with that
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  and got into more of the marketing side versus,
• 5:58
  you know, photography and video editing.
• 6:00
  So I have that background, which I think is
• 6:01
  extremely important as a media buyer, especially
• 6:03
  if you're creating ads and kind of having the eye for it.
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  And then, you know, 365 Holdings was very involved with the University of Akron.
• 6:12
  So that kind of almost every student knew who they were since they were local.
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  They would provide a lot of their data for
• 6:17
  our marketing research projects that came from
• 6:20
  their e-commerce businesses.
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  So that's kind of how I heard about the company and then got employed there.
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  365 Holdings owns several different e-commerce brands.
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  Some we buy and hold, some we buy and sell.
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  So it just kind of depends on the needs of the business.
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  But there's currently two main brands that I
• 6:36
  work on within the umbrella of the company.
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  And I've worked on, you know, up to five or six at once in the past.
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  That's incredible.
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  Do you feel like this is like totally a
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  sidebar, but do you like the fact that you get to see
• 6:47
  multiple brands or like, I don't know, is there value in that?
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  I have a bunch of brand side friends that
• 6:51
  they're like, they hit me up and they're like,
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  how are things looking?
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  You know, like, should I be upset right now?
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  How are things looking for you?
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  And so I feel like it has to be beneficial
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  that you get to see a little bit of everything
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  across.
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  I mean, at least the two which are spending
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  meaningful amounts of money, but maybe a little
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  bit more than that.
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  Do you find that there's value in that?
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  Yeah, I think definitely having experience
• 7:09
  across different industries is helpful and
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  different personas.
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  They all behave differently.
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  And I think it also gives me perspective of you
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  have to run different ad accounts differently.
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  I think the this is my playbook and this
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  is how to do things doesn't always apply to
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  every brand.
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  Even when you try to plug it into a different
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  brand, you're like, oh, this is not working.
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  So that's helpful, too, of just knowing
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  every brand behaves differently and they all have
• 7:29
  different goals.
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  They all have different, you know, LTVs, different AOVs.
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  So like the math is always different for them and the personas are different.
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  The ads you need to create, the ad structure needs to be different.
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  So I think that's always been helpful of like,
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  hey, I have this playbook and it works really
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  well, but I try to apply it over here and it doesn't work.
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  So I think that's where I have a different
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  perspective than maybe someone who's leading,
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  you know, a meta ads agency and they have one strategy and they're just going to go
• 7:52
  to bat on that one thing every time.
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  But I've also then touched a bunch of
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  different companies and like, OK, well, some things of
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  this work, but then they need different things applied as well.
• 8:01
  Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
• 8:02
  That's super helpful context for what you can share.
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  Like, what are the what are the general
• 8:07
  industries like gifting heavy, not gifting heavy?
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  What are the industries look like for the brands?
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  Both brands I'm touching now are very
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  gifting heavy in the pet space and in jewelry.
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  And then I've also been in like food and
• 8:17
  beverage, baby and in different industries like that.
• 8:20
  But currently I'm in very heavy gifting and very heavy Q4 brands.
• 8:24
  Cool.
• 8:24
  Sweet.
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  That's that's really helpful.
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  Andrew, I don't know about you, but I'm like
• 8:27
  desperate to get into this app loving stuff.
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  So if it's cool, I'm going to start ripping it.
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  Let's go.
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  We're talking about app loving.
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  Let's go.
• 8:35
  OK, awesome.
• 8:35
  So, Miranda, you there's been a couple of
• 8:38
  tweets that I've seen from you that you've
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  kind of like laid out how much you're
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  spending on app loving relative to like other other
• 8:44
  channels.
• 8:45
  Can you kind of walk us through like, OK,
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  at this point last year, maybe meta was the
• 8:49
  biggest thing and this is when it started to translate.
• 8:51
  Like, I'm just curious about what the
• 8:51
  timeline looks like from when because it sounds like
• 8:53
  and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but
• 8:55
  like app loving is the biggest piece or might
• 8:57
  be the biggest piece of the pie from from a total spend perspective for you.
• 9:00
  But like, when did that start to change?
• 9:03
  How does that what does that timeline look like?
• 9:05
  Yeah, it is currently our highest spending
• 9:07
  channel and that we spend, you know, going
• 9:10
  to Q4, we'll spend, you know, multi millions of dollars a month.
• 9:13
  So, yeah, it's our highest channel.
• 9:14
  I'm curious to see how it racks up against meta for the full month of November.
• 9:18
  But we onboarded with them the week before Black Friday last year.
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  So down to the wire, basically in Q4.
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  Meta was underperforming for us last year.
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  We had really strong growth on meta all
• 9:29
  throughout last year and then kind of hit November and had
• 9:32
  a really hard time scaling to levels we thought we were going to hit on meta.
• 9:35
  So that was kind of we were scrambling and
• 9:36
  then app loving was popping up on Twitter.
• 9:39
  And then Triple Whale had their, you know, their offer to to to onboard.
• 9:43
  And they were at the time they were giving away a
• 9:45
  ten thousand dollar credit to onboard at no risk.
• 9:47
  So it kind of was a no brainer of like,
• 9:49
  hey, let's go spend 10 grand on this platform.
• 9:51
  And if it doesn't work, cool.
• 9:52
  That didn't cost us anything other than, you know, my time.
• 9:55
  So it was a no brainer to just jump on there.
• 9:58
  So that's kind of how we got started on the platform.
• 10:00
  So we've almost been in a year, but we haven't been in a year yet.
• 10:03
  And onboarded with them at the time it was not even self-serve.
• 10:07
  So you could not even launch.
• 10:08
  You couldn't touch anything.
• 10:09
  Which as a media buyer, like I can't touch a button.
• 10:11
  Like this is not this is not fun.
• 10:13
  I want to touch the buttons.
• 10:14
  So everything, any change, you had to slack the account rep of how to if you want
• 10:19
  to change your budget, if you wanted to upload creative,
• 10:22
  like you had to message them and they would do it for you.
• 10:24
  So in one hand, it was a little bit easier because I
• 10:26
  didn't have to upload ads or deal with any of that at the time.
• 10:29
  So it went a little bit faster, but still
• 10:31
  nerve wracking to not be able to touch anything.
• 10:33
  So how did they how did they report on performance at time?
• 10:36
  Like there was there at least a dashboard where you could see like real time spend
• 10:39
  and efficiency or how did performance come back to you?
• 10:42
  Yeah, we had a dashboard.
• 10:43
  And then at the time they were live with the triple whale integration.
• 10:45
  So you could see all the data flowing through triple whale,
• 10:49
  which was how we were able to validate that it was working.
• 10:51
  Nice. Awesome.
• 10:52
  That's that's really helpful.
• 10:53
  And what does it look like in reference to like now you've been on a year?
• 10:57
  We're jumping all over the place, but like cohort wise, what is the quality of that
• 11:02
  that you can see of the customer that come?
• 11:04
  Because the reason I ask that question is because one of the things with TikTok
• 11:08
  that happened, you know, many years ago is everybody got on TikTok.
• 11:10
  And then like later the cohorts weren't as powerful.
• 11:14
  They weren't sticking around as long.
• 11:15
  Do you see that?
• 11:16
  Obviously, they're probably on average if you're continuing to spend that.
• 11:18
  They're the same as meta roughly or even better, maybe.
• 11:21
  AOB and LTV are higher on Apple 11 than meta.
• 11:24
  But I would say our demo does lean more female.
• 11:28
  And I think there are a percentage of people that I'm sure are on mobile games and
• 11:33
  aren't on social media that do have a large share of wallet or disposable income.
• 11:39
  So that's something that I think we've discovered and why I've kind of made that
• 11:43
  assumption based on the AOVs we see, because it is
• 11:45
  always at least 10 to 20 percent higher than our AOV on meta.
• 11:48
  That's really interesting.
• 11:49
  Is there, I mean, do you have a sense of like how the customer differs otherwise?
• 11:54
  Like, do they buy differently?
• 11:56
  Do they have different preferences?
• 11:57
  Like, have you done post-purchase surveys that you've like filtered down to Apple
• 12:01
  11 to see like how they're different than like a
• 12:03
  meta customer otherwise outside of the numbers?
• 12:05
  Yeah, a lot of them do play at least our
• 12:07
  customers that we know come through Apple 11.
• 12:10
  So we have our post-purchase surveys set up and
• 12:12
  we have, you know, where did you hear about us?
• 12:13
  And we have mobile game and then we have, you know, a blank space as well.
• 12:16
  And then, you know, all of our other channels that we're running and at least 15
• 12:20
  percent of them don't click mobile game and
• 12:22
  they tell us exactly which game they were playing.
• 12:24
  They'll say like add on wordscapes or add on Candy Crush.
• 12:27
  So that's been interesting to see that they want to tell us like, hey, I was
• 12:30
  playing this game specifically and this is how I heard about you.
• 12:33
  So that part has been has been kind of funny
• 12:35
  because I'm like, you guys are messing up my survey.
• 12:37
  Like, I can't. I just need you to click mobile game
• 12:39
  because now you're hitting other and you're throwing off my data.
• 12:41
  But that's been interesting. And also the
• 12:44
  conversion paths have been a lot different.
• 12:46
  So meta will see more touch points typically, you know,
• 12:49
  and we use Triple Whale like North Beam does the same thing.
• 12:52
  But we'll kind of see people from meta clicking around quite a bit versus we've had
• 12:56
  probably higher percentage of people on
• 12:58
  Apple 11 click by checkout with only one click.
• 13:01
  And like true first click attribution. And then also
• 13:04
  there's a very large overlap from Apple 11 to Google.
• 13:08
  So people seeing an ad, clicking on an ad from Apple 11 and then later having a
• 13:12
  click on Google, whether it's through our brand name or even through category
• 13:16
  searches and then converting off of there.
• 13:19
  Do you think that has anything to do with like the
• 13:21
  type of the ad unit and how the ad unit actually works?
• 13:24
  And maybe it's helpful to describe that. My understanding
• 13:26
  is you have to watch 30 seconds or in credits by watching it.
• 13:29
  But like you're pretty committed at 30 seconds, depending on the type of video, you
• 13:33
  only have 60 seconds for that length itself.
• 13:36
  So like, I don't know, do you have a given assessment of why that might be?
• 13:39
  100%. So I think the biggest difference is on meta, you're getting again, both
• 13:44
  platforms are getting charged on a CPM basis.
• 13:46
  But on meta, you're getting charged for the person who watches 10% of your video,
• 13:50
  who watches 0.5% of your video, who just scrolls past it and did not even
• 13:54
  acknowledge the brand or anything that had to do with the ad.
• 13:57
  So the brand recall, I believe, is a lot higher
• 14:00
  because you are getting that 30 seconds of full attention.
• 14:03
  And I think the biggest thing that I think makes the platform so powerful is if
• 14:08
  you're playing a game, you're sitting there, you have a pop up that says, hey,
• 14:11
  would you like to watch, you know, a video and get coins or whatever in your game?
• 14:15
  And you commit to that transaction. So you are almost like
• 14:18
  agreeing to I'm going to watch this whole ad for 30 seconds.
• 14:21
  I'm sitting on my phone playing a game that I'm very engaged in. You're not going
• 14:25
  to you're likely not going to get up and let it play and go to the bathroom or get
• 14:29
  a snack because like you would for a TV commercial, because there's not enough time
• 14:33
  with that 30 seconds and you want to get back to your game.
• 14:35
  So and you, again, are also entering into this agreement of I will watch an ad for,
• 14:41
  you know, a reward in my game versus I feel like anytime we serve an ad to a
• 14:45
  customer and any other platform that exists now, they don't want to see it.
• 14:49
  They aren't willingly wanting to watch an ad. They
• 14:52
  just, you know, they don't want to watch a commercial.
• 14:54
  They don't want to see an ad on Meta. They just want to, you
• 14:56
  know, either scroll on their friends or watch their TV show.
• 14:58
  So I think that transaction almost makes this a little
• 15:00
  bit different than anything we've seen before in Ecom.
• 15:02
  Yeah. Andrew's a huge Candy Crush guy. I'm pretty sure he spends like nine hours a
• 15:07
  day on Candy Crush. So he's he's familiar.
• 15:10
  Very. Yeah, definitely. So much, so much bunch of stuff I want to ask about, but
• 15:15
  I'm curious about getting right into the structure of it.
• 15:18
  So how do you structure this the right way? Like from a campaign standpoint, from a
• 15:23
  bid type standpoint, attribution window, like what do you how do you select that?
• 15:27
  And then we'll talk about creative, of course.
• 15:29
  Yeah, I think something about AppLovin that is definitely different than Meta.
• 15:32
  I think it's probably the most comparable to Meta. This is why I bring it up,
• 15:35
  because I do believe it's more of a demand generation
• 15:38
  platform versus, you know, Google is, you know, demand capture.
• 15:41
  So you're kind of creating the hype, the demand for that
• 15:44
  product. It's almost similar to YouTube, too, in that way.
• 15:48
  But the setup is much more simple than what you'll see in Meta, especially now with
• 15:53
  the 7000 AI optimizations you have to check on off
• 15:56
  otherwise, and then they'll just force turn them on anyway.
• 15:59
  But the setup is way easier than Meta, and it
• 16:02
  is much like there isn't as many decision making.
• 16:05
  It's not like, oh, should I do ABO or CBO or
• 16:07
  should I set a cap? Should I not set a cap?
• 16:10
  You know, so there's not as many decisions there.
• 16:12
  So it's pretty simple where you either
• 16:14
  choose a day zero or day seven attribution window.
• 16:16
  I would suggest if you have a higher AOV product or a longer consideration cycle to
• 16:21
  set seven day, because you're just feeding the system more data.
• 16:23
  If you believe you have something that's more of an impulse and probably a lower
• 16:26
  consideration period, you probably want day zero.
• 16:29
  But personally, you know, I use seven day.
• 16:31
  And then you just have to either do your
• 16:34
  cost per purchase target or your ROAS target.
• 16:36
  And you just want to set that to whatever your business objective is.
• 16:39
  If your ROAS target is, you know, 300%, put in 300%.
• 16:42
  If your cost per purchase goal is $60, put in $60.
• 16:45
  So those are like really the only main things that you have to set there.
• 16:49
  You also then can set targeting.
• 16:51
  That's a newer feature of you can do international ads now.
• 16:54
  So if you do sell outside of the U.S., you can
• 16:56
  now put ads globally outside of Western Europe.
• 16:59
  So that section is still closed to Apple and buyers.
• 17:03
  But you can also you can do, you know, Canada,
• 17:05
  Australia, Mexico, any other country you'd want to do.
• 17:08
  And then you just set your target per country.
• 17:10
  So if you are paying the shipping and tariffs and duties to Canada or Australia,
• 17:14
  then you might want to set your target higher there to cover the Delta.
• 17:18
  And that's honestly the main targeting
• 17:20
  that you have to set up at the campaign level.
• 17:22
  Yeah.
• 17:23
  So there's a couple of things in there I'm curious about
• 17:25
  if you've tested or seen a meaningful difference from them.
• 17:28
  So I literally have my App 11 dashboard
• 17:29
  pulled up just so I can walk through the setup.
• 17:32
  But the difference between zero and seven day, have you tested it?
• 17:37
  Does it make a meaningful difference or is
• 17:40
  purchase behavior kind of how you think about it?
• 17:42
  And like there's more meaningful things to test, like spend
• 17:44
  more time focused on creative than the attribution window.
• 17:47
  Yeah.
• 17:47
  I mean, personally, seven day, we saw a lot of
• 17:49
  growth by using seven day instead of day zero.
• 17:51
  But we also have a little bit longer consideration cycle.
• 17:54
  And I do believe you're feeding the system more data with seven day.
• 17:57
  So I would in most cases choose seven personally, but that's up to the advertiser.
• 18:03
  It also could be if you have very large swings from like the weekend to the
• 18:06
  weekdays, you may want to do day zero so that the system is only optimizing on one
• 18:11
  day instead of, oh, well, it overachieved on Sunday.
• 18:14
  So it's going to underachieve on Monday.
• 18:15
  So I've seen a little bit of that with seven day.
• 18:17
  But I think if you're trying to scale aggressively at large numbers every day, then
• 18:22
  I think seven days feeding as much data as possible.
• 18:24
  Do you have an opinion on like ROAS versus cost per purchase?
• 18:27
  My personal anecdote is we tested a brand
• 18:30
  that has a pretty like ranging AOV and catalog.
• 18:33
  They don't have a ton of products, but the AOV can easily swing from $40 to $100.
• 18:37
  I guess that doesn't mean AOV.
• 18:38
  Their common purchases swing across that spectrum.
• 18:41
  And we tried value and it was terrible.
• 18:43
  It was like it was very obviously different.
• 18:45
  So do you have a, do you generally start with one or the other?
• 18:48
  Personally run everything on ROAS.
• 18:49
  I have a couple of cost per purchase campaigns for our hero SKUs.
• 18:54
  But at least in our case, I found I'm able to
• 18:56
  scale up more on ROAS versus the cost per purchase.
• 18:59
  But I do have both on in my account.
• 19:01
  But I would say I end up spending more on ROAS.
• 19:03
  Do you feel like in your meta account, just like
• 19:06
  contrasting it, do you have both live and meta as well?
• 19:08
  Yes, I have both.
• 19:09
  I have bid caps and I have a TROAS on in meta.
• 19:12
  So we do, you know, run both.
• 19:15
  There's been some studies, at least for meta that's come out where it's like, hey,
• 19:17
  there is very little overlap from value and volume.
• 19:20
  So if you're running bid cap and you're running
• 19:22
  TROAS, meta says you're not overlapping your customers.
• 19:25
  I don't know if that's true for AppLovin, but both work for us.
• 19:28
  You read my mind.
• 19:29
  Yeah.
• 19:29
  That was my question.
• 19:31
  Cool. That's good to know.
• 19:31
  So I need to revisit target ROAS is what you're
• 19:34
  saying because my baby gave up on it a little too fast.
• 19:37
  But that is super interesting.
• 19:39
  One more question on like the actual campaign setup piece of it.
• 19:42
  What about the DPA section?
• 19:45
  Like incremental, not incremental.
• 19:47
  Don't really have an opinion one way or another on that one.
• 19:49
  I do think it's incremental.
• 19:50
  And I think now, so it's different now.
• 19:53
  So within the last, I want to say two weeks, they've now added the ability to edit
• 19:56
  your catalog before you only had to serve your whole Shopify catalog.
• 20:00
  So I did end up having to turn it off for a lot of our
• 20:02
  products because we serve like 10 different products on AppLovin.
• 20:05
  So I don't want to show them one, like an ad that's specific for one product and
• 20:10
  then see a DPA for a completely different product.
• 20:12
  What they buy on the website is up to them.
• 20:14
  But that's kind of where my opinion was at first.
• 20:17
  Now that you can edit your catalog, I do have
• 20:19
  specific product sets for the ads that I'm running.
• 20:23
  And then I do have those on.
• 20:25
  So I think that has been also helpful for if you have
• 20:28
  a site that has a lot of different products to offer.
• 20:32
  So like, for example, we sell, you know, pajamas and there's, you know, long sets,
• 20:36
  there's short sets, there's sweatpants, there's shorts.
• 20:38
  And with apparel, it's like, well, I don't
• 20:40
  like sweatpants, so I'm not going to buy.
• 20:42
  But if you saw then, you know, a DPA at the
• 20:44
  end of like, oh, well, they have short sets.
• 20:46
  That's what I like.
• 20:47
  Then you would be more likely to click through.
• 20:49
  So I think for apparel or jewelry or something that has
• 20:53
  a large catalog, you definitely should have it attached.
• 20:55
  So that if a customer doesn't necessarily like what they see in your ad, but then
• 20:59
  they still like your product offerings in a
• 21:01
  different way, they'll still click through.
• 21:03
  Okay, that's good to know.
• 21:05
  And then, okay, I think I said one last thing,
• 21:07
  but I have another campaign set of questions.
• 21:09
  Like, how are you splitting campaigns and then actual, like, maybe the creative
• 21:13
  sets, I think is how they phrase their ad set.
• 21:15
  It's not really an ad set level because it kind of doesn't
• 21:17
  have an ad set level, but how are you splitting campaigns?
• 21:19
  Are your ROAS, a bunch of different products
• 21:21
  and cost per purchase need to be product specific?
• 21:23
  How are you determining how to make new
• 21:25
  campaigns and maybe creative sets at that point?
• 21:27
  Yeah, I have.
• 21:28
  So I only have one campaign per product.
• 21:31
  And the only case that I have two is ROAS
• 21:33
  and CPP, but they have the same ads in each.
• 21:37
  So they don't have different ads.
• 21:38
  So you can put up to 10 videos, 10 interactives, 10 images in a creative set.
• 21:43
  Their best practice is to put three to four videos.
• 21:45
  And I would stand by that.
• 21:47
  I think putting 10 is too many.
• 21:48
  I think it is just, unless you're spending probably over six figures a day, I don't
• 21:53
  think you're giving it enough data to filter through
• 21:55
  that and all of your other ads that you have running.
• 21:59
  But I have a mix in my account.
• 22:00
  So I have some that are just one video, one interactive, and then one DPA.
• 22:06
  So I have some ads that are very simple.
• 22:08
  Actually, I have one ad that's been running for almost a whole year in there, and
• 22:11
  it still spends several thousands of dollars a day.
• 22:13
  So I would say the ad fatigue is not as bad as meta here.
• 22:16
  But then I'll also take winners and put them into a creative set.
• 22:19
  So I'll take, like, okay, here's 10 winners or
• 22:22
  three or four winners from, you know, the last 30 days.
• 22:26
  And they're all in their own, you know, creative set as one video.
• 22:29
  Let's roll them up into one.
• 22:31
  I also think if you can take, if you have an offer you're running that's for only
• 22:35
  for a weekend, or I think it's really helpful to take your creative sets.
• 22:38
  And then you tap on sale end cards or sale interactives, because then you almost
• 22:43
  can change the creative without having to make a whole new video.
• 22:45
  So say your sale is starting now, but you don't have your videos ready.
• 22:49
  You can at least tack on, like, a quick image at the end with your offer, like,
• 22:53
  without having to go in and edit the whole video and change the CTA.
• 22:57
  And so I think that's pretty unique about the platform.
• 22:59
  So you have a mix running of everything now, and that's what you'd recommend for
• 23:04
  everybody, kind of having the creative learnings that, you
• 23:07
  know, translating from meta as a meta forward advertiser.
• 23:10
  What are the things that other people, you'd want people
• 23:12
  to know about AppLovin that they would be able to utilize?
• 23:15
  I think you have to have longer videos in there.
• 23:17
  So your five second, 10 second videos that work in meta
• 23:20
  are not going to work in AppLovin, at least not at scale.
• 23:23
  You really can make an ad.
• 23:25
  You can make an advertisement versus entertainment.
• 23:28
  I think that is the biggest mindset shift you have to take
• 23:31
  when going from meta to AppLovin of this is a commercial.
• 23:35
  Like, you should almost think about it more like a TV ad than you should a meta ad.
• 23:39
  So, yes, you need to have a strong hook.
• 23:41
  You need to have all of your fundamentals for advertising.
• 23:43
  But you don't have to do something crazy to capture their attention with a hook
• 23:47
  because they're already going to watch it.
• 23:50
  And you also have a full 30 seconds.
• 23:51
  So, like, I think the way to think about the creative is how can I tell someone
• 23:55
  exactly everything they need to know about my product in 30 seconds?
• 23:57
  So that they will click and buy and check out today versus like meta.
• 24:01
  You're like, well, I got to show them a video ad.
• 24:02
  I got to show them, you know, a carousel.
• 24:04
  I need to give them a sale ad.
• 24:05
  I have to give them an offer ad.
• 24:07
  Like, they need to see 15 different, you know, touch points and ads throughout
• 24:11
  their customer journey before they're going to click and buy.
• 24:13
  Versus you have 30 seconds of undivided attention.
• 24:15
  How can you give them features and benefits?
• 24:18
  The offer, the use cases, the you're selling supplements, like the health care
• 24:23
  questions, the, you know, surprise and delight, like
• 24:26
  anything you can tell them that would convince them to buy.
• 24:29
  So if the right customer is watching your ad, like what
• 24:31
  else do they need to know that they'll just check out and buy?
• 24:33
  I mean, it really validates what you said before, right?
• 24:36
  Like they're forced to watch it.
• 24:37
  So that's, they're, you're giving them everything that they
• 24:40
  would want to know and your objection busting along the way.
• 24:42
  So it's like, that's why you're have more one day purchases because they've, they
• 24:47
  don't need, they've been forced to see the whole thing.
• 24:49
  And they're like, you know what?
• 24:50
  That seems like a good idea.
• 24:51
  And boom, they can click on it and get it right away.
• 24:53
  Okay. And are most of these, are most of the ones that
• 24:56
  you're talking about, are they, are they sub a hundred dollar AOV?
• 24:59
  Um, I have one product that's two 50 and above.
• 25:02
  And then I have another that like, like you said, Brad is, is a range.
• 25:06
  So it ranges usually from like, I want to say 75
• 25:10
  to like three and 400 even because it's apparel.
• 25:13
  So if you buy multiple sets or you buy for
• 25:15
  your family to match your AOV can get much higher.
• 25:19
  So in terms of, you know, a lot of mindset shifting, I
• 25:23
  think it's really important that you're talking about, right?
• 25:25
  All right. This is the mindset of a meta advertiser.
• 25:28
  This is the mindset of what you're going to
• 25:29
  need to think about as it comes over to app love.
• 25:31
  And we've talked about some of those things.
• 25:33
  What are other pieces that people would need to prepare their clients for?
• 25:36
  Or, you know, in your case, the internal client, you
• 25:39
  know, of like, this is look, this is going to look different.
• 25:41
  It's going to be a little different.
• 25:43
  These are things to watch out for.
• 25:44
  This is how it, how, you know, we see it performing differently, et cetera.
• 25:48
  This is what we can expect.
• 25:49
  Like anything like that, that can help
• 25:51
  people make sure to talk about it the right way.
• 25:54
  In our case, AppLovin way under reports the purchases.
• 25:57
  So if you validate with post-purchase surveys, you
• 26:00
  validate with your traffic, you validate with your MER rate,
• 26:04
  you validate with triple whale, 28-day click and lifetime click,
• 26:09
  you will see there's a lot more
• 26:10
  incrementality to the platform than they are reporting on.
• 26:13
  If you have a North Beam or a triple
• 26:14
  whale, I would recommend connecting like sonar.
• 26:16
  I forget what North Beam's data pushback is called,
• 26:19
  but we found that was helpful too to the platform.
• 26:22
  I think there is a lot of cases where it
• 26:24
  does miss purchases, especially as you scale.
• 26:26
  So we validate everything with triple whale and
• 26:28
  I'll take, you know, 7, 14-day, 28-day windows
• 26:32
  and see how much lag there is happening
• 26:35
  from they did click and then they did purchase.
• 26:38
  You have to also consider people that are
• 26:39
  watching this out and they're not making any clicks
• 26:42
  because you may watch the whole video and you're like, oh, that's cool.
• 26:44
  I'm going to go buy that later, but I want to get back to Candy Crush.
• 26:46
  So you have the brand recognition to where you may go search for it later,
• 26:50
  or you may see it on Meta then, or you see it somewhere else.
• 26:53
  You're like, oh, wait, I know that brand.
• 26:55
  I saw that ad for it.
• 26:57
  I did want to buy that.
• 26:58
  And then you may click somewhere else.
• 26:59
  So I think if you can validate with a third-party reporting tool,
• 27:04
  that will help you understand that it's working well.
• 27:06
  For us in Q4 last year, I mean, we scaled from zero to $80,000 a day in seven days.
• 27:12
  So it was very fast scale and my company's bootstrapped.
• 27:15
  So there's no venture capital.
• 27:17
  So if this is not working, I have no job.
• 27:19
  So I think that was kind of something people
• 27:21
  were pushing back to me on Twitter and media
• 27:23
  bars.
• 27:23
  Like there's no way that's working.
• 27:25
  Like they're like, there's no way, like there's
• 27:27
  no way you can spend that much and you're making
• 27:28
  that much money.
• 27:29
  And I think it was me and like Sean from
• 27:30
  Ridge who were like, no, like this is working.
• 27:32
  And like Sean's like, here's the check I
• 27:34
  wrote them for like a million dollars the other
• 27:36
  week.
• 27:37
  You know, I'm not going to write this check.
• 27:39
  It was not working.
• 27:39
  So, you know, when we scaled, we ended up
• 27:41
  spending a million dollars in 30 days and our
• 27:44
  MER went down.
• 27:45
  Our revenue went up.
• 27:46
  This is an e-com site.
• 27:47
  I have no other traffic sources other than the internet.
• 27:50
  So, I mean, there was no other way to prove it other than, hey, this is working.
• 27:54
  I mean, there's a lot of metrics that support it.
• 27:56
  And that maybe that SEO that you guys did
• 27:58
  four years ago really kicked in all at one time.
• 28:01
  I mean, you know, no one knows the confidence of an e-com bro on X.
• 28:05
  Of course.
• 28:05
  Right.
• 28:06
  Yes.
• 28:06
  Yes.
• 28:07
  Naturally.
• 28:07
  Like, yeah, there's no way, you know,
• 28:10
  there's no way you could know something I don't.
• 28:13
  I guess it's interesting to just rethink
• 28:15
  the whole mix and the fact that if it is, you
• 28:18
  kind of mentioned and you've alluded to the
• 28:20
  fact that it's like a lot of the audience is
• 28:22
  more female focused.
• 28:23
  Just has Apple and said this to you, like
• 28:26
  this is for more, you know, more female focused
• 28:29
  or have you also tested across like everyone
• 28:32
  and you see cohorts for males going up as well?
• 28:34
  Because I've heard that rumblings of that, but I don't know how real that is.
• 28:38
  And like, I know that guys played games all the time, like too.
• 28:41
  Yeah.
• 28:41
  So I'm curious of your take on it.
• 28:43
  I think, I think there's definitely a mix.
• 28:45
  I think it does a good job of finding the correct demo.
• 28:47
  Like I think their algorithm is very smart.
• 28:49
  So the correct demo that you're supposed to find, it will find.
• 28:52
  I know True Classic who was on there and they
• 28:54
  were talking about how on, on Meta, they only
• 28:58
  would serve to, you know, males buying for themselves.
• 29:02
  And once they got on Apple and they
• 29:03
  suddenly unlocked this new market of women who were
• 29:06
  buying for their husbands or their, their spouses or their friends.
• 29:08
  And it like opened up an entire new segment
• 29:11
  of people that they were never able to reach
• 29:12
  on Meta.
• 29:13
  So I think that's just an interesting stat
• 29:15
  of, you know, maybe you're going to serve
• 29:17
  these ads on Apple and then hit a new demo that you've never served to before.
• 29:21
  Meta has never found that pocket for you
• 29:22
  with your ads and it will find a new pocket for
• 29:25
  you that, you know, is very incremental to your business.
• 29:27
  Say in Q4 last year, I did pull a report of
• 29:31
  like, okay, the whole time we were on Apple
• 29:32
  and Meta for all of Q4 last year, what was the overlap?
• 29:36
  Because I think that's another pushback
• 29:37
  where people are like, oh, well, it's just going
• 29:38
  to retarget my Meta customers on there.
• 29:41
  Out of 41,000 orders, there was only a 5%
• 29:44
  overlap from people touching, touching, touching
• 29:49
  Meta and touching Apple and there was only a 5% overlap.
• 29:52
  If you pull Google, it's much larger.
• 29:54
  If I pull Meta and Google, it's like nearly 50%.
• 29:57
  But between Apple and Meta, it was very little overlap.
• 30:02
  So you're finding it's a whole new, I mean, it's a whole new set of people, really.
• 30:07
  I mean, what is your sense then of these people?
• 30:09
  Is it that they're people that are over
• 30:12
  social media, but they need something to escape on
• 30:14
  their phone?
• 30:15
  And like, that's a place to reach them and they're not looking because they already
• 30:19
  have like 7 billion emails that they get regularly?
• 30:21
  Yeah, I mean, I think everyone in e-com has
• 30:24
  never thought about the fact that there are
• 30:26
  people that exist that aren't on social media that will buy your product.
• 30:29
  I mean, let's be honest here.
• 30:30
  Everyone thinks, oh, I have to unlock Meta and I'm going to unlock my business.
• 30:33
  And that is the only-
• 30:34
  Yeah, totally.
• 30:35
  Right.
• 30:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 30:36
  Absolutely.
• 30:37
  And the fact that we, in the month of October,
• 30:40
  I spent around, you know, over a million dollars
• 30:42
  on ads and most of my spend went to AppLovin over Meta.
• 30:47
  And that's not what things looked like last year.
• 30:49
  So I think there is potential for a lot of businesses on there.
• 30:53
  I think everyone's customers exist off of Meta.
• 30:56
  They don't only live on Meta and Instagram.
• 30:59
  And I think we're kind of in a world too,
• 31:01
  where people are kind of rejecting social media
• 31:03
  in some ways too, where there's a lot of noise on there.
• 31:06
  And I think we've seen that.
• 31:08
  And like with the political landscape over
• 31:10
  the last 30, 60 days, even of, you know, there's
• 31:12
  a lot of noise and people are like, this is all negative.
• 31:14
  Like, I don't want to be on here.
• 31:16
  So if they're not on a social media app, you got to reach them somewhere.
• 31:20
  So I think it's just a different mindset too.
• 31:22
  And even if you're scaled up on Meta already
• 31:24
  and you're spending, you know, tens of thousands
• 31:26
  or millions a month on Meta, like you could
• 31:28
  make even more and go on this other platform
• 31:31
  and double your spend.
• 31:32
  I mean, we spent the exact same on AppLovin
• 31:35
  in December that we had done in December of
• 31:37
  last year and we matched spend.
• 31:39
  So, you know, we spent a million on each
• 31:41
  platform and saw huge growth in the business.
• 31:44
  What's your sense of the inventory?
• 31:45
  Like you said, you've been able to continue
• 31:47
  to scale and you continue to scale like it's
• 31:49
  because, you know, when you, the reason I ask that question is because when you get
• 31:52
  with Meta, you can tell when you're bumping
• 31:54
  up an inventory because your frequencies are
• 31:55
  going up and like, you know, results are declining, et cetera, et cetera.
• 31:59
  And obviously nobody has infinite
• 32:01
  inventory, but you scaled a ton and you're continuing
• 32:05
  to scale even in a competitive period.
• 32:08
  You know, we're recording this in mid-November
• 32:10
  of 2025, which is not when it's going to come
• 32:12
  out, which is why I bring this up.
• 32:14
  So it's like squeezing of inventory.
• 32:15
  When, how do you see that?
• 32:17
  Is it continuing to go up the way that it has been?
• 32:19
  And is it, do you feel like, you know,
• 32:21
  you're, as you're increasing, the results continue
• 32:23
  to hold?
• 32:24
  Yeah, that was what we definitely saw.
• 32:26
  Yeah.
• 32:26
  So last, and again, this is a very Q4
• 32:28
  brand that I'm spending incremental dollars on,
• 32:31
  on Apple.
• 32:32
  And so we naturally scale as it gets closer
• 32:34
  to Black Friday, we naturally scale as it gets
• 32:36
  closer to Christmas and people buy in those, in those trends.
• 32:39
  But the thing I found the most interesting
• 32:41
  in Q4 of last year when we onboarded with them
• 32:43
  was it just didn't break when you scaled.
• 32:45
  So like I said, we were, we're going into Black Friday.
• 32:47
  We had just onboarded.
• 32:48
  We had, they basically spent through our 10K credit within like three days.
• 32:52
  So while I personally would have waited much longer and been really like strategic,
• 32:56
  about spending 10K and make sure it was
• 32:58
  validated over like at least two weeks, they blasted
• 33:01
  through it.
• 33:01
  And then we basically hit the first day, you
• 33:04
  know, paying with our own credit card where
• 33:05
  we were at like over $10,000 a day.
• 33:07
  And then, you know, the results held and they were beating meta.
• 33:10
  And then it just came to, well, do you want to double the budget?
• 33:12
  And I was like, sure, I guess we will.
• 33:15
  And then it was the day before Black Friday
• 33:17
  and we had spent 40 grand and it held, you
• 33:19
  know, by doubling and doubling day over day.
• 33:21
  And it was like, just put it to 80.
• 33:23
  Like, let's see what happens.
• 33:24
  Will it break?
• 33:25
  And it didn't.
• 33:26
  It still hit the same ROAS number when I hit the button from 40 to 80.
• 33:30
  So I think there's definitely a ceiling
• 33:32
  for every brand of how much you can spend and
• 33:33
  how much creative you have in there and how
• 33:35
  many different markets those creatives will
• 33:36
  hit.
• 33:37
  But I think the ability to scale is there.
• 33:39
  And I think once you get to a certain point,
• 33:41
  like where we're at, it's OK, how can we hit
• 33:43
  different markets with ads that make sense?
• 33:45
  Same way that you would you would approach
• 33:46
  meta of, OK, well, we've already hit all of
• 33:48
  the people that, you know, fit this this demo.
• 33:51
  Like, how can we hit another avatar?
• 33:53
  So then it becomes a creative play.
• 33:55
  But I think the ability to scale the model is very smart to scale quickly.
• 33:59
  So first on like creative testing, like, do
• 34:01
  you have a structure for how you're testing
• 34:03
  creative in here or are you just kind of like loading it up?
• 34:06
  Like, what's the what's the methodology for
• 34:07
  like the actual structure of creative testing,
• 34:10
  if any?
• 34:11
  I think something that's different about Apple and compared to meta.
• 34:14
  So meta, we have a creative testing campaign
• 34:15
  that is separate from our scaling campaign.
• 34:18
  And I've tested this.
• 34:19
  And no matter what I would do with meta, no
• 34:20
  matter how many new creatives that I thought
• 34:22
  were amazing, I put against the winners, it would never scale.
• 34:25
  And I'd be like stuck twiddling my thumbs.
• 34:27
  So that's what I've always seen with meta.
• 34:28
  And that's kind of how I run meta ads of
• 34:30
  keeping them separate and letting them scale and get
• 34:32
  data and social proof and all of that.
• 34:34
  But Apple and you can put a new creative in.
• 34:37
  And if it's a winner, it will rise to the
• 34:38
  top, even against ones that have been in there
• 34:40
  for a year.
• 34:41
  In our case, like I uploaded new ads on
• 34:43
  Friday and they're currently number five and six as
• 34:45
  spenders.
• 34:46
  And I have over 150 ads in that campaign.
• 34:49
  You can plump new ads right into your existing campaign with the winners.
• 34:53
  If it's a winner, if it has enough data,
• 34:54
  it'll validate it and it'll move it to the top.
• 34:56
  And I also have ones that I put in there that
• 34:58
  I thought were OK and they also didn't spend.
• 35:00
  And then I would test four different end cards and it still wouldn't spend.
• 35:03
  And I'd be like, OK, this is a smart model
• 35:05
  and I just need to get rid of this video.
• 35:07
  So I think that's one thing that is
• 35:09
  different with the platform is you 100% can put, you
• 35:13
  know, brand new ads in there and they'll rise to the top if they are good.
• 35:17
  Another thing I've noticed, too, is it will not.
• 35:19
  Meta sometimes will pick up an ad and it'll
• 35:21
  spend a lot on it and the return will be poor
• 35:24
  because the engagement is so high.
• 35:25
  It won't do that with these.
• 35:27
  So I've never seen an ad in the top five
• 35:29
  to 20 that is like a zero ROAS or like very
• 35:33
  poor ROAS or not hitting the goal.
• 35:34
  So that's also something to consider of the
• 35:36
  risk to creative test is very low because it's
• 35:38
  not going to spend a lot on something that's not working.
• 35:40
  So winners win.
• 35:41
  Like that's that's like our mantra kind of recently is like winners win.
• 35:45
  Like you don't have to like force it in.
• 35:46
  It just kind of pick.
• 35:47
  I mean, we've mostly seen that on Meta, too.
• 35:50
  But it's good to know that on the app loving
• 35:52
  side, like that's the that's the case as well.
• 35:54
  So, um, OK, very helpful.
• 35:55
  You touched on like what you could do in
• 35:57
  videos that you might not be able to do in other
• 35:59
  platforms, Meta specifically.
• 36:01
  Are there any like if you're going to make
• 36:02
  these three ad creatives or if you're going
• 36:04
  to make three ad creative, like this is the
• 36:06
  format to follow that you would suggest from
• 36:08
  like a video perspective.
• 36:09
  I want to talk about end cards and interactives a ton, but video video first.
• 36:14
  I'm curious.
• 36:14
  Yeah, I think we found a lot of success with asking questions as a hook.
• 36:18
  It's like, did you know that you can do this?
• 36:21
  Or did you know that you can take a supplement that helps your hair not fall out?
• 36:25
  So whatever your hook could be, I think
• 36:27
  asking a question kind of piques curiosity and it
• 36:30
  also hits the right customers.
• 36:33
  So it's like if they're really engaged with
• 36:34
  that and they'll click through, I think that
• 36:36
  also piques interest for them to pay a
• 36:38
  little bit closer attention because you're asking
• 36:39
  them a question instead of like, here's my
• 36:41
  greatest and latest T-shirt that is red and
• 36:43
  green and blue versus like, did you know
• 36:45
  that you can get a T-shirt that is on sale or
• 36:48
  whatever your end goal is there?
• 36:50
  But yeah, I think starting with a question
• 36:51
  has worked really well with us across several
• 36:53
  different products.
• 36:54
  So we've really enjoyed doing those and found success with those.
• 36:57
  I think also you can get pretty brand heavy
• 36:59
  and like talk, like pump your brand name several
• 37:01
  times.
• 37:02
  It's different than meta because if you think about meta, even if you're watching a
• 37:05
  reel, you're going to see the brand name
• 37:07
  at the very top or YouTube, you're going to
• 37:09
  see the brand name at the bottom.
• 37:11
  There's no brand name pumped into the creative until the interactive at the end.
• 37:15
  So if they end up closing the app, if they
• 37:18
  end up not clicking through, if they end up
• 37:21
  clicking through and then bouncing, but you
• 37:23
  just want to make sure your brand name is really
• 37:25
  clear.
• 37:26
  So if you need to mention it six times in the ad, go for it.
• 37:28
  Like we have one that is really just like
• 37:30
  people being like talking about the brand name
• 37:32
  a hundred times with different clips of like, I just got this.
• 37:35
  I just got this from this brand.
• 37:36
  So I think making the brand recognition
• 37:38
  really high because again, you have 30 seconds.
• 37:40
  If you tell them about your product and
• 37:42
  then they go to Google and they end up clicking
• 37:43
  on your competitor, you have not done your job as a marketer.
• 37:46
  So that's something that's very different as well.
• 37:48
  And like I said, the features and benefits
• 37:49
  of reasons why you should buy your product,
• 37:51
  you should pump in as much as you can.
• 37:53
  Sweet.
• 37:54
  I'm writing down.
• 37:55
  That's why I'm looking down.
• 37:56
  I'm literally taking notes as we go through this.
• 37:58
  Okay.
• 37:58
  Let's swap over to end cards for a second.
• 38:01
  Like what are the elements of an end card?
• 38:03
  You mentioned something earlier, which I hope
• 38:05
  people picked up on, which was you can literally
• 38:07
  take, we did this, right?
• 38:09
  We, Black Friday sales went live at this
• 38:11
  time, by the time of recording this, about a week
• 38:14
  ago for a bunch of brands.
• 38:15
  And yeah, same thing.
• 38:16
  Like I just made a new creative set and swapped
• 38:19
  out the end cards to be Black Friday specific.
• 38:21
  Those are some of the top spending pieces, top spending end cards right now.
• 38:24
  I think their creative reporting is interesting.
• 38:27
  I'm not sure if I love it or I hate it, but it's interesting.
• 38:30
  But that's been, that's been really helpful.
• 38:31
  So like, are there any elements of an end
• 38:33
  card that you think make a successful end card
• 38:35
  and like any fun tests that you've run end card specific?
• 38:38
  End cards without an offer have a 2% lower click-through rate on average.
• 38:42
  Like proper 2%, like, like it's a 4% versus a 2% click-through rate.
• 38:46
  Like that's the same exact creative.
• 38:48
  I just didn't put the 60% off in the end card.
• 38:52
  So just make sure your end cards have offers.
• 38:55
  Just, just do it.
• 38:56
  You'll see better results regardless of the
• 38:59
  buys you get one free, you know, whatever,
• 39:02
  whatever your offer is, make sure it's on the end card.
• 39:05
  I've had a lot of success with making GIFs that are animated,
• 39:08
  whether like the letters are popping or, you know, the shop now is popping,
• 39:12
  whether you have things flying in that, you know,
• 39:14
  even if it's just like a traditional graphic ad,
• 39:16
  or even if it's like, you can even take some
• 39:17
  of your best winners on meta that are graphics
• 39:19
  and add them as end cards and make them interactive and make them animated.
• 39:23
  I have a video background, but I'm not an expert, you know, animator.
• 39:26
  So if you have Canva, you can easily do this with their animation settings.
• 39:31
  So very simple to do.
• 39:32
  And I think just having a little bit of movement
• 39:35
  does help instead of them just staring at a graphic
• 39:37
  for five seconds for it to, to end and go to the DPA.
• 39:41
  And then if you have a lot of variants or
• 39:43
  you have a lot of variation in your product,
• 39:46
  you should add those in end cards so that people can see something they like.
• 39:50
  So if you're selling a shirt, put the red, green, blue, purple,
• 39:54
  like try to put as many color variants in there as you can.
• 39:57
  So someone who's like, well, I don't like black, so I'm not going to click,
• 39:59
  but they're like, oh, I really liked the red one.
• 40:01
  Same thing, you know, with jewelry.
• 40:02
  If you have silver and gold, make sure you put both because, you know,
• 40:06
  someone who doesn't like gold jewelry may not click because they like silver.
• 40:09
  So things like that I found have been helpful.
• 40:11
  Usually USPs I've found aren't as successful of like,
• 40:14
  if you're just trying to put all your USPs in an end card,
• 40:17
  people aren't as interested in reading all that.
• 40:21
  But definitely having your,
• 40:22
  your variations and your, your offer are really important.
• 40:26
  Cool.
• 40:27
  And I mean, the USP thing is interesting,
• 40:28
  but it's like the entire video probably just like belabored the point, right?
• 40:32
  Like at least they saw 30 seconds of it.
• 40:33
  Maybe they saw the full 60.
• 40:35
  And so that probably, that probably covers
• 40:37
  it, you know, pretty, pretty thoroughly there.
• 40:39
  It sounds measurement wise.
• 40:40
  It sounds like you're doing post-purchase survey
• 40:42
  and you're looking at just general.
• 40:45
  I mean, what other,
• 40:45
  is there anything else that you're doing in
• 40:46
  reference to measurement to know for sure?
• 40:48
  Like, have you done specific codes only there or anything like that?
• 40:52
  We haven't done anything like that,
• 40:53
  but I think post-purchase survey using longer attribution windows and triple oil,
• 40:57
  because you can,
• 40:58
  you can even look in Apple Evans platform too,
• 41:00
  and see your lag time from day zero to day 28,
• 41:04
  like you can in meta.
• 41:05
  So if you find out like,
• 41:06
  hey, there's a 50% lag or there's a 20% lag,
• 41:09
  like you could even then be like,
• 41:10
  okay, well, I'm okay taking a 20% lower ROAS knowing,
• 41:13
  you know, within 714,
• 41:15
  whatever your, your window is like,
• 41:16
  then, you know, I know we're going to hit that eventually because of the lag.
• 41:19
  So that's another way to look at it.
• 41:21
  If you only,
• 41:21
  if you don't have a tool like triple whale or North beam,
• 41:24
  and you want to make sure it's working,
• 41:26
  you could also look at those in platform
• 41:28
  and see if you're getting some delayed purchases.
• 41:31
  Sure.
• 41:31
  Yeah.
• 41:32
  I mean, I want to ask about Instagram,
• 41:34
  but this episode's about, about app love.
• 41:36
  And so I won't ask about Instagram,
• 41:37
  but I, I loved your tip the other day about removing Instagram
• 41:43
  and just targeting meta
• 41:44
  and how Instagram was causing, costing you.
• 41:47
  Like what was it?
• 41:47
  40% more or something.
• 41:48
  It was almost double.
• 41:50
  Yeah.
• 41:50
  And that was over.
• 41:51
  Like that was me looking at the last six months.
• 41:54
  So that was not,
• 41:55
  Oh, I only looked at the last 30 days and it was,
• 41:56
  it was double like,
• 41:57
  no, like six months of data,
• 41:59
  tens of thousands of dollars of spend.
• 42:00
  And it, it was double.
• 42:02
  And then we've seen a lot of growth
• 42:03
  in that campaign since I removed Instagram.
• 42:07
  I mean, it's interesting.
• 42:08
  It says something about your vertical.
• 42:09
  Certainly.
• 42:10
  Do you guys do any international stuff now,
• 42:12
  since you mentioned that or not,
• 42:13
  not at this moment in time?
• 42:15
  Yeah, we do.
• 42:15
  Our business is 10 to 20% international.
• 42:18
  And always has been.
• 42:19
  And we've seen actually large scale
• 42:21
  by adding the international app love and ads.
• 42:23
  And then we also run international ads on meta as well.
• 42:26
  And what do you get a sense of what's going to be
• 42:28
  continuing to innovate on the app love?
• 42:30
  Like, are there pieces that, you know,
• 42:32
  people are creating that they should be thinking about?
• 42:34
  Right.
• 42:34
  I mean, obviously you talked about creating
• 42:36
  and utilizing animated GIFs,
• 42:38
  but like other stuff like that,
• 42:40
  that could be,
• 42:40
  you should get better at this
• 42:41
  because app love is going to continue to do this as well.
• 42:44
  I think creative.
• 42:45
  I think one thing that's interesting
• 42:46
  is you can make a lot of creative
• 42:48
  and continue to scale as you make more creative.
• 42:51
  So I think that's something that,
• 42:53
  I mean, we started on there at 80K a day
• 42:55
  and I think we had 10 ads.
• 42:57
  So there wasn't a lot in there
• 42:59
  where everyone is screaming about Andromeda
• 43:00
  and you need 8,000 ads a week
• 43:02
  to upload to the platform.
• 43:04
  It's not the case there,
• 43:05
  but I think the more creative variation you make
• 43:07
  and the more creatives you make,
• 43:08
  you can tap into a little bit different markets or demos.
• 43:11
  So I think that's where you can scale with the platform
• 43:14
  as it gets smarter.
• 43:15
  And I mean, it's collecting more and more data
• 43:18
  from more and more e-commerce companies every day.
• 43:20
  So it's going to get smarter.
• 43:21
  You figure when, before October,
• 43:23
  there were only 600 advertisers in the platform
• 43:25
  and that's not a lot.
• 43:26
  Now that there's more,
• 43:28
  I mean, there's hundreds of thousands of e-commerce brands.
• 43:30
  So the more data that this system continues to read,
• 43:32
  it should get smarter.
• 43:33
  Yeah. Have you seen an impact on your performance
• 43:36
  from people flooding in or not so much?
• 43:39
  No, nothing too bad.
• 43:40
  CPMs have stayed pretty even versus Meta's.
• 43:43
  I mean, Meta's been increasing since the summer,
• 43:45
  at least on our end.
• 43:46
  And we're like nearly double last year.
• 43:48
  So that's been a bit difficult.
• 43:50
  Yeah, I'm looking,
• 43:50
  I'm just like looking at my chart of spend
• 43:52
  on a couple of app-level accounts.
• 43:54
  And as you've been saying,
• 43:55
  things like check out the lag time
• 43:56
  and check out the CPM changes.
• 43:58
  And like even into November so far,
• 44:00
  CPM has literally not changed at all from October,
• 44:02
  which you would kind of expect at this point
• 44:04
  with everybody ripping their Black Friday offers.
• 44:06
  But yeah, no, it's encouraging.
• 44:08
  I need to like go export this all into a doc
• 44:13
  and start ripping some app-level.
• 44:15
  But now it's a little bit more aggressive.
• 44:16
  That's what everybody's going to do with this episode.
• 44:18
  I know.
• 44:18
  I feel like I just have a ton of insights.
• 44:19
  I got a full page of notes.
• 44:21
  Yeah.
• 44:21
  Miranda, anything else that you want to mention
• 44:23
  for the good of the order?
• 44:24
  Anybody?
• 44:24
  We didn't really do the segment.
• 44:26
  I don't know if you're a listener to the show, Miranda.
• 44:28
  It's okay if you're not.
• 44:28
  But we always do a funny segment
• 44:31
  where we like to create beef,
• 44:33
  but pretend beef with people.
• 44:34
  Is there anybody that you have beef with
• 44:36
  that you're like,
• 44:37
  why does this person always do this?
• 44:38
  Anything?
• 44:39
  I'll have beef.
• 44:39
  I won't name names
• 44:40
  because I feel like I don't want to do that.
• 44:42
  But I feel like there are people that exist
• 44:45
  that will just tell you to make lots of creative
• 44:48
  and plug them into all of the channels.
• 44:51
  And that is not,
• 44:52
  you will not find a lot of success with that.
• 44:55
  You may find success,
• 44:56
  but you will not be able to scale
• 44:58
  to large.
• 44:59
  Not consistently.
• 44:59
  Your numbers.
• 45:00
  Yeah.
• 45:01
  You're not going to be able to spend
• 45:01
  a couple million a month on this platform
• 45:03
  if you're just going to take your meta creative
• 45:05
  and plug it in.
• 45:05
  You really do need to get specific with it.
• 45:08
  And it will pay off for you.
• 45:09
  I mean, we've seen a lot of growth.
• 45:10
  The brand has seen a lot of growth.
• 45:12
  We've had a lot of really good things happen
• 45:13
  because of Apple 11.
• 45:15
  And like you have to make platform specific creative
• 45:18
  if you want to be really successful on a platform.
• 45:20
  Meta creative exists
• 45:22
  and there's meta agencies
• 45:23
  because there's specific creative
• 45:24
  that meta wants and needs
• 45:25
  and will optimize for
• 45:26
  and the way that users behave on that platform.
• 45:29
  The way that users behave on Pinterest
• 45:30
  and Snapchat and Apple 11 are all different.
• 45:32
  And if you just make the same thing
• 45:34
  and export it everywhere,
• 45:35
  it's not going to perform at the same level
• 45:37
  as if you really sat down
• 45:38
  and made something for that user.
• 45:40
  It's interesting you said,
• 45:41
  that's actually what I forgot.
• 45:42
  That's what I wanted to ask
• 45:43
  was like, how specific?
• 45:44
  Because we have a brand that sells,
• 45:46
  I'd say it's like posture adjacent things.
• 45:48
  And like you could imagine an ad
• 45:49
  where it's like the person has slouched over.
• 45:51
  It's like, is this how you're sitting right now
• 45:52
  as you play your game?
• 45:53
  Or like, have you made creative
• 45:55
  that specifically calls out?
• 45:56
  Like, hey, sorry to interrupt your game.
• 45:58
  This will be quick.
• 45:58
  Like, have you done anything like that extreme?
• 46:00
  100%.
• 46:01
  Yes, we've been like,
• 46:02
  hey, stop watching your game for a second
• 46:03
  and listen to, you know,
• 46:05
  what we have to say.
• 46:06
  Or hey gamers, like we've,
• 46:08
  yeah, we've 100% called them out
• 46:09
  during their game.
• 46:10
  So again, you can't do that on meta.
• 46:12
  But if you plug that creative into meta,
• 46:14
  that's not going to work.
• 46:15
  So that's where making a bunch of creative
• 46:17
  and just blasting it everywhere.
• 46:19
  It's an affordable way to do things.
• 46:21
  But I think if you spend an extra hour or two
• 46:23
  sitting down and really thinking about the use case
• 46:25
  and the user on the platform,
• 46:27
  you're going to have way more success.
• 46:28
  And again, if you're, you know,
• 46:30
  $100 million brand
• 46:31
  and you have 50,000 creative
• 46:33
  that are in meta already,
• 46:34
  you'll probably be able to plug some stuff in
• 46:36
  and it's going to work really well on Apple 11.
• 46:38
  If you're a 10 to $50 million brand,
• 46:41
  like you definitely need to sit down
• 46:42
  and spend a little bit more time
• 46:43
  thinking about the user.
• 46:45
  And that applies to Snapchat and Pinterest
• 46:46
  and every other,
• 46:47
  if you want to diversify your ad channels,
• 46:49
  like that applies to everything else.
• 46:50
  Yeah, it's great feedback.
• 46:51
  Miranda, I appreciate your time and joining us.
• 46:53
  And again, everyone who is listening to this,
• 46:56
  you need to follow Miranda.
• 46:57
  We'll put it in the show notes,
• 46:58
  her X account,
• 47:00
  where you can find her good insights.
• 47:01
  And thank you again for your time.
• 47:08
  This episode is brought to you by
• 47:10
  Brad's Company Work Marketing.
• 47:12
  If you need a D2C marketing agency,
• 47:14
  let me tell you, Homestead is great,
• 47:17
  but work marketing is also fantastic.
• 47:20
  And let me tell you,
• 47:21
  you aren't going to find friendlier people
• 47:23
  out there in the e-commerce space.
• 47:27
  So we decided to do these little ads
• 47:29
  for each other's companies.
• 47:30
  So hopefully you find it interesting.
• 47:31
  But seriously, great team at work marketing,
• 47:34
  very smart.
• 47:35
  Brad and Jordan are incredibly dialed in.
• 47:37
  I just gave them a lead,
• 47:38
  already made this brand.
• 47:40
  I gave them like,
• 47:41
  I don't even know,
• 47:42
  double revenue that they had
• 47:44
  the previous month or something.
• 47:46
  So, you know,
• 47:47
  it's very exciting to be connected with Brad.
• 47:49
  And if you need a great agency,
• 47:51
  there's really no one better.
• 47:52
  Zach, anything to comment on work marketing?
• 47:55
  Yeah, I mean,
• 47:55
  if you want an agency
• 47:56
  that cares about your business
• 47:58
  much more than they care
• 47:59
  about their own website,
• 48:00
  I just tried to load workmarketing.com
• 48:02
  and it was broken.
• 48:03
  So they're definitely going to give
• 48:04
  more of a shit about your business
• 48:06
  than their own.
• 48:07
  So I highly recommend Brad
• 48:08
  and the team over at work.
• 48:09
  They've been incredible.
• 48:10
  We've referred a lot of business
• 48:11
  over to them as well.
• 48:13
  Really, really good
• 48:13
  as far as like cracking funnels
• 48:15
  and figuring out like rapid growth for brands.
• 48:17
  So I highly recommend these guys.
• 48:23
  The only way that we grow this podcast
• 48:25
  is by you sharing it with your friends.
• 48:28
  Honestly,
• 48:29
  like reviews kind of
• 48:29
  don't really mean anything too much anymore.
• 48:31
  They're really meaningful,
• 48:32
  but they don't do a lot
• 48:33
  for the growth of the podcast.
• 48:34
  And so sharing YouTube links,
• 48:37
  sharing Spotify links,
• 48:38
  sharing Apple,
• 48:40
  whatever we call it
• 48:41
  under the podcast app now,
• 48:42
  anything you can share,
• 48:44
  the better we're going to be.
• 48:46
  Guys, anything else
• 48:47
  you want to say on this?
• 48:48
  Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube.
• 48:50
  Rack up those views for us.
• 48:51
  We'd love to see it.
• 48:52
  And then subscribe.
• 48:53
  Make sure to subscribe on YouTube as well.
• 48:54
  And I relentlessly refresh
• 48:56
  the YouTube comments
• 48:56
  because it dictates my mental health
• 48:58
  for the day.
• 48:58
  So please say something nice
• 48:59
  about all of us.
• 49:01
  Thank you, everyone.
• 49:02
  Thanks for listening.
• 49:03
  Honestly.