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Capturing Media Attention for Your Book with Leah Paulos · WriterCon

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  Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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  Speaker 2: There are no quick fixes in getting the word out
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  Speaker 2: about your book. You really have to be strategic and
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: you have to work at it. You have to treat
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  Speaker 2: it like a little a little business, little business of
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  Speaker 2: one product, your book.
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  Speaker 3: So that would be my one piece bits.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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  Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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  Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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  Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
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  Speaker 1: winning author the want Ln Files book series.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey there writers, thanks for joining
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  Speaker 4: us today. It's getting close to Thanksgiving and we're getting
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  Speaker 4: close to our two hundredth episode of this podcast. But
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  Speaker 4: more on that.
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  Speaker 3: Lege, I'm amazing.
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  Speaker 4: So back to Thanksgiving. What are you guys thankful for?
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  Speaker 4: Jesse and Laura. That's vaguely related in some way to
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  Speaker 4: the world of books. Maybe it's your best reading experience.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know, Laura, and give me.
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  Speaker 5: Some car Well, let's see some of my favorite books
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  Speaker 5: I read this year. I think were Clara and the
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  Speaker 5: Sun and We All Live Here.
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  Speaker 3: Fiction, yes, and I know we're both well.
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  Speaker 5: I think you've finished Babbel, but I'm reading it now,
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  Speaker 5: so yeah, that's.
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  Speaker 3: A good book.
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  Speaker 4: I was done to Katabasis. If that's how you pronounce that,
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  Speaker 4: who knows, Jesse? How about you?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I'm thankful that I found another book series that
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  Speaker 1: is doing.
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  Speaker 4: A Kickstarter well done.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, it's called Dungeon Crawler, Carl. It's a delightful book
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  Speaker 1: series that they just did a It wasn't a kickstarter,
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  Speaker 1: was it something else? Backer cat for just like a
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  Speaker 1: one of the characters, like offshoot graphic novel and it
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  Speaker 1: was just fund saying it succeed. And while I'm waiting
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  Speaker 1: for the next book of that, I decided to reread
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  Speaker 1: the Expanse because I had on my kindle already. Also
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  Speaker 1: an excellent series that's.
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  Speaker 4: Like nine books, isn't it?
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  Speaker 1: If I recall seven? It's seven books? But there and
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  Speaker 1: this is going to.
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  Speaker 4: Sound you don't count the last two or something or
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  Speaker 4: are they not written yet?
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  Speaker 2: Uh?
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  Speaker 1: No, I think they're only seven?
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  Speaker 4: Oh well, I thought I had read.
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  Speaker 1: There are a couple of novellas mixed in there too.
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  Speaker 5: Okay, Dungeon Crawler, what is it? Believe it or not?
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  Speaker 5: Somebody just recommended this to me.
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  Speaker 1: It's called Dungeon Crawler.
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  Speaker 3: Carl, Carl, Caller Carl.
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  Speaker 1: It's okay, it's delightful. There's a talking cat. It's very
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  Speaker 1: it's very Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: The cats in one week told me that I should
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  Speaker 5: read this, so we have to get it.
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  Speaker 1: Pretty funny.
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  Speaker 5: That's our next thing we read together. Bill.
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  Speaker 4: That sounds like a good deal to me.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I've heard the audiobooks are very good of it.
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  Speaker 1: I don't listen to those, but people my friends who
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  Speaker 1: also have read it said they are excellent.
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  Speaker 4: So anyway, good to know. Okay. Our interview today is
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  Speaker 4: with Leah Poulos. This is kind of a change of
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  Speaker 4: pace for us because Leah is not primarily known as
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  Speaker 4: an author, but as a book publicist and one of
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  Speaker 4: the best around. You can find PR people all over
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  Speaker 4: the internet, but Leah is the founder and leader of
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  Speaker 4: press Shop PR, which is the real deal. She's been
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  Speaker 4: working in this field for more than twenty five years.
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  Speaker 4: She's helped promote some of the top titles from major publishers,
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  Speaker 4: like books you know by people you know. She knows
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  Speaker 4: what works and what doesn't, so writers, this may be
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  Speaker 4: one of the most important interviews you listened to this year.
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  Speaker 4: We'll be talking to Leah soon. But first, the news
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  Speaker 4: news story number one. I got to say up front,
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  Speaker 4: you know, both of our news stories this time represent
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  Speaker 4: good news for writers and that is always welcome and
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  Speaker 4: sometimes a change your pace. Anyway, good news story number
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  Speaker 4: one the venty and Ink Fluence. That's like Influence with
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  Speaker 4: a K in it because the first rate letters are
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  Speaker 4: capitalized to spell inc. Anyway, these two companies are partnering
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  Speaker 4: up to support direct sales, but this is in a
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  Speaker 4: very different way. We've reported on other people who can
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  Speaker 4: handle direct sales for you, that's not it. You know,
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  Speaker 4: the Venti is a platform that indie authors go to
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  Speaker 4: to facilitate their directing sales. But Influence helps indie authors
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  Speaker 4: produce special merchandise like special editions with foil embossing and
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  Speaker 4: what they called it, like paint tips, edges and all
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  Speaker 4: these kinds of things. They make beautiful books. So bottom
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  Speaker 4: line that you would not only be selling direct from
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  Speaker 4: your website, you'd be theoretically selling these beautiful books, maybe
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  Speaker 4: beautiful autographed books. I mean, it's not at all a
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  Speaker 4: bad idea, And that's why I wanted to put the
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  Speaker 4: story on the show because people need to know about this. Okay, Laura,
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  Speaker 4: would you like to see one of your books get
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  Speaker 4: the tipped edge free.
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  Speaker 5: Rate edges, Yes, beautiful hard cover special editions that have
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  Speaker 5: sprayed edges and the covers that are just designed especially
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  Speaker 5: for them.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I would.
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  Speaker 5: I do love those who doesn't love those? Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 5: that person exists.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know, Jesse. Does it matter to you?
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  Speaker 1: To you if you love books, you want the book
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  Speaker 1: to look cool, and there's nothing like cooler than like
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  Speaker 1: texture and age and you know, like a lack of
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  Speaker 1: almost at both more Christmas and less Christmas, if you
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  Speaker 1: know what I mean.
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  Speaker 2: You know the.
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  Speaker 1: If you love books, I imagine you have a sense
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  Speaker 1: of like the historical nature of the book as an item,
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  Speaker 1: and the sort of mass produced hardback of it is
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  Speaker 1: just not It does not give you the same feeling
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  Speaker 1: as like something that has been given some extra love
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  Speaker 1: and attention.
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  Speaker 5: When I was like a teenager and I would go
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  Speaker 5: to the mall, I always wanted to go into Walden Books,
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  Speaker 5: and I was always I always wanted to get the
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  Speaker 5: special like leather bound editions, just because that's what we
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  Speaker 5: had back then, that was special. I don't know that
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  Speaker 5: we had anything like these sprayed edges and these full covers,
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  Speaker 5: anything like that. But that's what was special then, and
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  Speaker 5: I would I would hold those and just I would
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  Speaker 5: just think, someday, someday I'll get these kinds of books.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, very nice. I will put in the show notes
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  Speaker 4: everybody links where you can find out more information about
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  Speaker 4: this program. Okay, news story number two, There is a
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  Speaker 4: new Literary Arts Fund in town for literary nonprofits. A
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  Speaker 4: coalition of seven charitable foundations. I won't list them all,
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  Speaker 4: but they're big deals all the way through. And they've
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  Speaker 4: announced the launch of the Literary Arts Fund right here
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  Speaker 4: in the United States. They're going to distribute at least
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  Speaker 4: at least fifty million dollars over the next five years
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  Speaker 4: to literary nonprofits. Just to be clear, that's not to
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  Speaker 4: like individual writers alas, but to organizations. And they're going
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  Speaker 4: to continue to fundraise into the future. I mean, just
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  Speaker 4: put this into perspective. Okay. The NEA, the National Endowment
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  Speaker 4: for the Arts, they paid out about thirty two million
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  Speaker 4: in grants last year total total, but a bare smidgeen
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  Speaker 4: fraction of those grants we're going to the literary arts,
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  Speaker 4: which tends to not be as well funded as some
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  Speaker 4: of the others, and so this is an attempt to
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  Speaker 4: correct that. And you know, I want to amend something
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  Speaker 4: I said before, because sure, this money has to go
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  Speaker 4: to nonprofit organizations, but it seems to me that some
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  Speaker 4: of those probably have a grant program, you know, that
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  Speaker 4: gives grants to writers. So actually, maybe some of this
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  Speaker 4: money could end up helping writers. Lara, what do you
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  Speaker 4: think going to stand up in applaud or.
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  Speaker 5: I applied anything that increases literacy in our country and
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  Speaker 5: that that gives some of these organizations the tools and.
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  Speaker 3: The resources to assist.
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  Speaker 5: And you're exactly right. There are writers organizations that apply
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  Speaker 5: to grants to try to help keep that going, and
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  Speaker 5: that does directly impact aspiring authors, and it makes it
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  Speaker 5: so that not everyone, but some of these organizations have
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  Speaker 5: their own conferences, and that grant money helps them be
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  Speaker 5: able to put on the conference as well. So I
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  Speaker 5: think I think anything that increases literacy is a welcome change.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, good, Jesse. So if you got to pick where
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  Speaker 4: would or who'd get the money.
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  Speaker 1: I would like I would like twenty million of those
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  Speaker 1: dollars to go to whatever LLC you made for the
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  Speaker 1: Writer con Convention.
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  Speaker 4: That I love it, so it'll go on forever.
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  Speaker 1: Yees yeah, get again. A society that invests money in
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  Speaker 1: art and artists always does well, and when and when
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  Speaker 1: our country and civilization stop doing that, things go poorly.
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  Speaker 1: So this is good, It's exactly right.
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  Speaker 5: And who shouldn't get that money?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Jesse James ea Patterson. If eight as money goes to door,
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  Speaker 1: so mad.
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  Speaker 4: If who works harder he's got like thirty doesn't work
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  Speaker 4: at all in prices.
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  Speaker 1: He hires people, I guess, so that takes time, all right.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: So moving on to craft Corner. Craft Corner this time
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  Speaker 4: comes from longtime writer con friend Tamera Grantham, author of
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  Speaker 4: Never Call Me Vampire, a terrific book, a sequel, Dare
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: to Call Me Vampire, and many other fantasy novels and series.
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  Speaker 4: I will put links to her work in the show notes.
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  Speaker 4: Her segment today is about giving your characters eccentricities. Take
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  Speaker 4: it away, Tamara.
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  Speaker 3: Craft Quarter.
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  Speaker 6: Hi, everyone, this is Tamay Grantham, and I wanted to
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  Speaker 6: share some writing tips with you. Lately. I've been thinking
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  Speaker 6: a lot about characters and how an author writes characters,
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  Speaker 6: and it reminds me of when I was in high
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  Speaker 6: school and I was in the school play and we
• 11:27
  Speaker 6: were doing this play called Harvey. And in the play
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  Speaker 6: there's a lot of characters. Obviously there's characters, but they're
• 11:34
  Speaker 6: actual given they're real characters, they're funny, there are eccentric
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  Speaker 6: And when the play was over, we had the judge
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  Speaker 6: come talk to us, and I remember the first word
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  Speaker 6: he said to us was eccentricities. And he said it
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  Speaker 6: in such a way that made me remember the word
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  Speaker 6: after all these years, and it made me think about
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  Speaker 6: how when we're writing, when we write characters, sometimes they
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  Speaker 6: fall flat on the page, and I think in our
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  Speaker 6: mind they're not flat characters at all. And so when
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: we get feedback from critique partners that says, yeah, this
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  Speaker 6: character just didn't really stand out for me, or this
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  Speaker 6: character wasn't very memorable. I think the reason why is
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: because as authors, yes, we can see those characters, but
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  Speaker 6: if we want our readers to see those characters, we've
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  Speaker 6: really got to bring out all their personality traits and
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: almost overdo the characters. You know, if they have a
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  Speaker 6: witty line, we need to make it wittier. If they're sad,
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  Speaker 6: we need to really show that sadness. If they're arguing
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  Speaker 6: with someone, we really need to make that argument stronger
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  Speaker 6: and louder and make their voices just really come off
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  Speaker 6: the page. And so I feel like that when you're
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  Speaker 6: writing characters in the first draft, just write them. But
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  Speaker 6: in the second draft, when you go back, I think
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  Speaker 6: you probably have all those things there. But in order
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  Speaker 6: for the reader to really see those characters and to
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  Speaker 6: make those characters really likable, you've just got to bring
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  Speaker 6: out those eccentricities. And I think that that's what makes
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  Speaker 6: reading so fun, is being able to read those characters
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  Speaker 6: and being able to see your aunt or your grandma
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  Speaker 6: or your nephew, you know, acts just like that. And
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  Speaker 6: the reason is because we all have eccentricities, and when
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: we write those characters, we can see them on the page. Okay,
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  Speaker 6: so that is my writing tip for you. I hope
• 13:47
  Speaker 6: it's helpful. Thank you and have a great day.
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  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Tamera. All right, now let's move on to
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  Speaker 4: our interview with Leah Paulos. Leah Paulos, Welcome to the podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
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  Speaker 4: All Right, we have a traditional first question, if you
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: could offer writers one piece of advice, and I'll bet
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: you could offer them a lot, But if you had
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  Speaker 4: to narrow it down to one piece of advice, what
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: would it be.
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  Speaker 2: I think my advice would be authors need to be
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: really proactive and not to be a downer. But there
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: are no quick fixes in getting the word out about
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: your book. You really have to be strategic. You have
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: to work at it. You have to treat it like
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: a little business, little business of one product, your book.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: So that would be my one piece of advice. I
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: think there's a lot of misconceptions, in large part because.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: It didn't always It wasn't always like this.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: It was in the media environment was more manageable, publishers
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: could offer more resources to their authors, and now it's changed.
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  Speaker 2: So I think a lot of authors, particularly authors who
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  Speaker 2: have published books in the past when things were different,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: they definitely have an idea of what happens and what
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: they need to do that's really not in line with
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  Speaker 2: the reality today. But really all authors, it's really important
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  Speaker 2: to just be proactive, get out there. You're the one
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  Speaker 2: that has to lead the charge. It doesn't necessarily need
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: to be you, but you have to be propelling other
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  Speaker 2: people to do it if.
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  Speaker 3: It's not you. So that's what my advice would.
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  Speaker 4: Be, yeah, I totally get that really good. My first
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  Speaker 4: book was published about thirty five years ago, and it's
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  Speaker 4: dramatic how much of the business has changed and publicity
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: has changed. Laura and I see this all the time
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  Speaker 4: at seminars and retreats and whatnot, where you know, you
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  Speaker 4: see someone who can consistently resists all suggestions that might
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  Speaker 4: make the project more commercially viable, and then they're the
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: first to complain when the book doesn't perform. Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: I don't know what to tell you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think when you think about is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, publicizing a book, it's really what publicizing.
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  Speaker 3: A book is.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Where it's sort of situated is right in between these
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: two industries that have completely transformed over the past decades.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: So it's publishing and media.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Publishing is completely different with you know, all the consolidation
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: with hybrid and self publishing, all of the different imprints
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: that Amazon ebooks, audiobooks completely changed, Media completely changed. You know,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: we don't even need to go in and start recounting
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: all the ways that's changed. So when you're thinking about
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: bl sizing your book, you're really working right at that
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: intersection of these two industries that have been turned upside down.
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  Speaker 2: So you really authors really need to know that they
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: need to be really nimble, really up to date on
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: what's happening right now, and not sort of rest on
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: any preconceptions of what it's like, what it was like
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  Speaker 2: in twenty ten.
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  Speaker 4: That's right for the nineteenth century or.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: So certainly not you know what it was like in
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  Speaker 3: the eighties or whatever.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Let's backtrack slightly. You started, you left, you finished at Cornell,
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: and then you worked as a magazine editor, right, I did.
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  Speaker 2: My first my start in my career was as an
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: editor at a couple of different magazines. So I'm one
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: of the rare independent book publicists who was never in
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: house at a publisher. I think it's really it really
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: helped me because publishing it was sort of right at
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  Speaker 2: that time when everything was changing. So coming from media,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I sort of had the other side of the I
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: was on the other side of the publicist promotion space.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: You know, people were pitching me all the time.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: You knew how things got picked.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, things got picked, what what worked, what didn't work,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: what the actual mechanics of producing media was like. So
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: that really helped me quite a bit. And then The
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: other thing with working in magazines is that we had
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: to create these stories. So it was a lot of storytelling,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: and we had to then make them publishable. You know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: it wasn't like, okay, and then it's going to go
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: through editors and this and that.
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  Speaker 7: We were the editors, so everything had to be perfect, polished, compelling, smart,
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  Speaker 7: very readable, digestible and all of that is really important
• 18:56
  Speaker 7: when when pitching your book.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: What inspired the trend transition from you know, writing and
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: editing and then you know, starting this marketing.
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  Speaker 8: For me, yeah, you know, I guess I wanted to
• 19:10
  Speaker 8: go out on my own, so that my first the
• 19:14
  Speaker 8: first thing that drove me away from working in magazines
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  Speaker 8: was honestly commuting.
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  Speaker 2: To Times Square and having two weeks of vacation, so
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  Speaker 2: that I really was a personal decision on lifestyle.
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  Speaker 3: At the beginning, I was like, I do not want
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  Speaker 3: to do this forever. So I wanted. I knew I
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: wanted to start my own thing. So I started.
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  Speaker 2: And you know what it was is once I got
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: out of magazines and I worked at Conde Nast and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: some of the really popular big magazines in the early
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: two thousands, and when I got out, people were always
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: picking my brain for how to get into these magazines.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, it's one of those things where when
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: you were in it, it seems obvious to you, but
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: then because you're like, oh, I don't know what I
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: did every day, everyone around me did it.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, this is how you do it.
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  Speaker 2: But then people were asking to know what do I
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: do and what do I send and who do I
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  Speaker 2: send it to and how do I do it?
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  Speaker 3: I was like, h I think it might be a
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  Speaker 3: business here.
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  Speaker 2: So that was sort of how I moved to doing
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: publicity consulting. And I've always loved reading and writing, so
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that I got into books and I just kind of
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: ran with it. As soon as I got my first author,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I just knew that was the place I wanted to be,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and did publicity under my own name for several years.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I took a couple of years off when my two
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: kids were born, and then when I came back, I
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: made it more into a company.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: So that's when I launched Frush Shop PR, which.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Is our main publicity firm, and then a couple of
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: years ago we also launched a sister company called Book
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Publicity School, and now now.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: We run both.
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: I'll keep that in mind. I might recommend that to
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: some people. I know, Yeah, how do you approach a
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: new book or like, what are the first things you
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: look for to help you build a successful PR campaign?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So yeah, when we're thinking about books, you know, evaluating
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: books for our full campaigns at press Shop. Press Shop
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is where we do all of our full campaigns, and
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: the big part of it is that we want to
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: make sure that we're going to be successful. So we
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: want to make sure that you know, there's there's a
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: story there, that there's something that we can see a
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: fairly clear path towards coverage, Like we can imagine that
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: like this is how we're going to pitch it. These
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: are the categories that are going to be interested. These
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: people that are interested in this genre or this subject matter,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: they are going to be interested in that. We you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: with publicity, of course, it's not like advertising. Nothing is guaranteed,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: but we always want to have a really clear sense
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: that like, yeah, we know a lot of places are
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: going to pick it up. Like we can't say anyone
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: is going to definitely do it, but we alway want
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: to have a really clear sense of what is successful
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: that we can make a campaign successful, So that varies
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: from book to book. You know, sometimes we'll we work
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: with a lot of big books that are best sellers
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: from big publishers and big authors, and you know, what
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: success looks like for those books is different than what
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: it might look like for an independent, you know, novelist.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: So we always want to make sure it's aligned with
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: what the author wants.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: HM.
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: Brilliant, But kind of what kind of alluded to this earlier.
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: We authors can sometimes get in our own way. I
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: assume that your work sometimes you do the best you
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: can in spite of the authors. So what do authors
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: sometimes not see or understand that kind of hampers the
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: PR campaign.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a big question. I mean I don't
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: say I don't think.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: With press Shop when we're doing a full campaign, and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I don't see that happening too often, just because we
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: you know, a big part of the work that we do,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: we don't take on a huge number of clients, so
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: we're really hands on and if somebody is getting in
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: our way, absolutely telling them to stop. I think when
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: we work at the Publicity School, which is where we
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: do all of our coaching and workshops, and in that
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: and in that capacity, I can see more issues because
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: there we are not actually doing the work. We are
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: advising them on how they can best most effectively promote
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: their books. So, you know, I think one thing is
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: really communicating with your publisher. I see one thing I
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: see happen all the time, and it drives me crazy,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: is that authors, if they have a publisher and that
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: has a publicist that's doing work, which you.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Know, is they.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Need to understand how incredibly strapped they are, how overwhelmed
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: they are. And so I see a lot of times
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: authors being really hesitant about doing their own outreach because
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: they're like, well, I don't know they're doing it, or
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I don't want to step on their toes, and like
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: that is absolutely a good thought to have. You know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you want to make sure to reach out to your
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: publicist and say like what are you doing?
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Is it okay?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: If I, you know, do this, I'm going to be
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: reaching out to some podcasts. But I have seen so
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: many people being hesitant about doing it because they're like,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: don't want to get in their way, and like the
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: media environment is bananas now.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: It's like the wild West.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: There's so much going on, there's virtual it's almost impossible
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: to step on their toes. Unless they are working for
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: you seventy hours a week, then maybe they'll be some overlap,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: but most of the time, obviously they're not doing that.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: And even so, you know, you want to make sure
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: that you're not reaching out to book editors that they
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: are reaching out to, but podcasts or substacks or you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: local festivals, they're.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Just not doing it. There's no way they can be
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: doing it.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so don't hesitate, don't sit back thinking, all right,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I have a publicist and my publisher.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: They're doing it.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I can just like hang out here and I'll like
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: pick up the phone when they call it with.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: Interviews, and they have nothing to focus on but my book. Right,
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: That's the way it should be best.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: You No, Yeah, I mean it really is.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: You know, when you see how much work publicists do.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, they are.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: So incredibly hardworking publicists for different publishers, whether small indies, academic,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the big trades, all of them.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: They are so incredibly hard working.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: They are so overwhelmed with like tons of books this season,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: with planning for books the coming season, dealing with any
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: sort of requests from their entire back catalog. You know,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: something happens in the news or somebody gets you know, anything,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden people come to them
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: from you know, books that were published last year or
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: four years ago, so they are. And then not to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: mention all of the you know meetings and author meetings
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: and meets with salespeople and a reporting it's just an
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: enormous amount of work for them to find time to
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: individually find the specific people that are going to be
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: interested in your book, in your topic that you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: might have covered books with a similar sensibility.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: They just simply don't have time.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you've talked about media, which is so multifaceted today
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: here I'm going to date myself. But I can remember
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: a day when, you know, talk shows ran ninety minutes
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: and usually in the last sometimes not usually, but sometimes
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: in the last ten minutes or so, they'd drag out
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: an author who's got a new book that's being publicized.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: But that's almost with a few exceptions, gone away. And
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: yet you've had amazing success getting people on television. I've
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: seen the list on your website. It's impressive. How do
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: you do it?
• 27:14
  Speaker 8: You know?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I mean that we always think about being extremely story forward,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: and always thinking like a journalist, I would say, and
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: that's one thing in all of our workshops at Book
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Publicy School, I'm always saying it is like you have
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: to think like a journalist. What do they need to
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: cover your book? They don't need to cover your book.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: That's not their job. Their job is to create a
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: really interesting segment or episode or whatever it is for
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: their audience or listenership, their readership. So think about what
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: they need to do that. Why is your book timely,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: why are you the one to share it? How is
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it moving the narrative forward? What is surprising or unexpected
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: about it? So always keeping that in mind when pitching
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: is really important, and then also just making sure that
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: you know especially I mean, obviously it depends when you're
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: pitching into TV what kind of TV it is. But
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: if it's anything moozy, you know, it has to the
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: news cycle shape, you know, is what like twelve minutes
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: long these days, so it's like it has to be
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: really up to date, you know, mate, don't be sending
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: something like I can they can speak to this topic
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that happened four days ago, Like that's all news at
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: this point, you know, if it's local TV how why
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: is this interesting to the local market. Why why would
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: these the people that are tuning into local TV, why
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: why do they care about your book?
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Tell them in your pitch that's very interesting, that's interesting.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: I want to ask you to pick, like a favorite
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: author or a favorite book. But if you couldn't, won't
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: not No, that would be I know, that would be
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: a big note.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: Until we turn off the recording devices then you can
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: spill everything.
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: But but could you share with us some of the
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: most memorable stories that kind of linger in your mind
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: from over the years.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Oh god, there are so many.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I mean one of the stories that was just so
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: on campaigns that was so incredible. This was it was
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: a while ago at this point, but it was a
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: book called I Hate the Internet, Very Patient.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: It came out and probably uh for about ten years ago,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: and it was sort of self published.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: It was published by a publishing house run by the author.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And this was the first book by the publishing house,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: so all on Tennis purpose is self published. It was
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so but it was such a funny book. I mean,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: it is hilarious. It's one of these books, you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: and I work with my husband. As I told you
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: guys before, we started recording, and so he oftentimes is
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: the one that reads the you know, is the first
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: line of Betting books when they come in. And he
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: was reading this book and I just heard him laughing
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: like out loud.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what are you laughing at? And like he's not somebody.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's a fabulous.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Sense of humor, but he is not someone that will
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: just laugh out loud easily.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: Like if he I was like, what we must work
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: on whenever you are reading.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: So that was a book where, you know, we decided
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: to really go really aim really high, even though it
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: was for all intensive purposes self published, because of the
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: humor factor, because I think when you can get people
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: to laugh, it just really it opens doors.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: You know, It's not something that is easy to ignore.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: So we decided to just go full force.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: With venues that we normally wouldn't have tried for a
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: self published book, and we were able to get it
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: in a number like Solon and Rolling Stone and then
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and then the New York Times picked it up and
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: wrote a review about.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: It Wow, which was.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Just amazing, and that just like it took off after that,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, all the foreign rights got.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Snatched up.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: He was there was this huge I remember at the
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Frankfurt Book Festival, which is a huge book festival in Europe,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: there was this whole section with just table after table
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: after table with I hate the internet. So but one
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: of the things we did in that case is that
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: we knew that he was an unknown author. It was
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: a publishing house that no one had heard of because
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: it didn't exist, you know before.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: For this book. For the book, so we knew we
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: needed to show people how funny it was.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: And so what we did in that campaign is we
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: wrote a really short pitch and then we include did
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: like just some really funny snippets in the pitch, you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: so they didn't have to read too far, they didn't
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: have to request the book. They immediately got something really
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: funny that made them laugh.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: You led with the strength. Yeah, how has all of
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: this pr affected you? I mean, after you've promoted so
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: many books, do you still read for fun in your
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: spare time? Or is this taking all the fun out
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: of it?
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's taking all the fun out of it,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: But most of my reading time I would say to
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: do was go to books that we are working on
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: or considering working on, you know, I really listened to
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: audio books on my own. You know that I want
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: to read, but I rarely have time to actually sit
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: down and use my eyes for that purpose.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, Okay, give me a short list.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: I should have warned you this was coming, but I'm not.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: But we've talked about mistakes people can mate. Could you
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: identify I don't know one or two of the smartest
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: things authors could do, in your opinion to make books
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: amenable to pr like having a sense of humor. What
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: else is useful?
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I think you want.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: It's really really important to always find ways to.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Talk about your book.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of authors, you know, once they're
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: done their book and then it's time to promote it.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: You have to kind of pivot.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: You have to change your mindset to figuring out how
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: to present your book to people that have never heard
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: of you, that have never heard of your book. And
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the best ways to do that
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: is to really just do it. Talk about it with
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: as many people as you can within the you know,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: they should be somewhat within the realm of a target reader.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't talk about you know the same
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: way you would talk about it with your fifteen year
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: old son is not necessarily the way that you should
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: be promoting a book unless it's, you know, targeted to
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that demographic.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: But you know, if there's.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: So whatever your particular audience is for your book, like,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: just see how you present it when you're talking face
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: to face with somebody. I think so often when authors
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: are trying to figure out how to position their book
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: and what to say in a pitch, they they're just
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: still in writer mode and they know the whole, the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: entirety of their book. They know all the ins and
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: outs of it. And you don't need that to sell
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: people the book. You need to have something snappy, just
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: an elevator pitch, really, and the best way to get
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to that is really.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Seeing how actual, real people respond when you talk about it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I've seen you know, we're working with one
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: author who had an origin story about this this book
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: he wrote, and you know, it was it was kind
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: of interesting.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: I understood why it was meaningful to him, but it
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: just didn't really land, you know. And that's the kind
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: of thing where.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: You know, if you sort of are telling a particular
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: story about your book and you kind of look and
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: the people around you are, Like.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: What drew you as the author to the book may
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: not be what sells.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Copies exactly exactly it was with that particular example. It's like,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: the origin story is your story, and sometimes there can
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: be an origin story that's really interesting, but in that
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: case it was more weighted towards the author because it
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: was like an emotional piece about you know, their life
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: and how it fit into their other work and how
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: they came to this and like that's great, but it's
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: just not what the reader needs.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: That's not why the reader is going to read the book.
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Leah, this has really been illuminating. Thank you
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: for you. Need to come out to the conference to
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: writer Con sometime. We would love to have you out there.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Excellent, would love to.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: I'll stay in touch. Thank you for being on the podcast.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: Just a few parting words. If it's cold where you
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: are right now, as there is at least some chance
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: there might be, you might be. We just posted information
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: about next year's writer Con Cruise, which is sailing from
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: Fort Lauderdale, a very warm place, on an eight day
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: trip to the Eastern Caribbeans, which I understand is also
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: pretty warm. Although I haven't actually been there, I'm excited
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: about going because I've never been there. So beautiful sites,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: beautiful weather, and over twenty hours of writing instruction from
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Laura and I. Betsy Kulakowski are onboard agent Catherine Sans,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: who will happily talk to each and every one of
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: you individually as well all of us. So don't miss out,
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: all right, plan now to be with us March seventh
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: through fifteenth for the writer Con Cruise. You can get
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: more information about that at our website writercon dot com.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: And while I'm talking, let me remind you that writer
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: Con has its own newsletter which is completely free, and
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: you don't want to miss the next issue, which I
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: believe goes out in three days, So go to substack
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: and search for writer Con. We also have a face
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: group face Group where you can Facebook group where you
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: can find out what's going on and what people are
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: doing on a daily eat basis. It's a really warm
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: and wonderful group of people. So just go to Facebook
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: and search for writer Con. We would love to have
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: you join us. All right. Until next time, keep writing
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: all right, see you next.
• 37:58
  Speaker 8: Time, as are spent.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: And by faith of
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: A spent